Very Audacious
An audacious podcast that dares to interpret faith through culture. Embrace your audacity.
Very Audacious
Folded and Furious?
Sean Tripline and Jalen Baker discuss the recent Alabama brawl and explore the complexities of race relations in America, self-defense, aggression, and how our faith helps us process all of these.
This episode of Very Audacious is brought to you by Movement Monday. Movement Monday is a contemporary casual worship community in the Philadelphia Metro. Join Movement Monday on September 11th at 5.30 pm for the doors opening, 5.45, a community dinner which is free to all who attend, and 7.00 pm, a worship experience where you can meet some of the team behind Very Audacious. Thank you, movement Monday, for sponsoring this episode of Very Audacious. Welcome to Very Audacious, the podcast where we audaciously delve into faith, culture and everything in between. I'm your host, shawn Tripliner. We're not holding back, so buckle up for this audacious ride. If you're as daring as we are, don't forget to like, share and subscribe. Let's go Today. Family, we are so excited to delve into this topic. We have named this particular podcast episode Folded and Furious. All right, folded and Furious, jaylin. What's up, man?
Speaker 2:What's going on, fam? What's going on? I'm excited about today, bro. I'm excited to get into this one right here, man.
Speaker 1:So now, before we go all the way in and to Folded and Furious, talk to us about what's happening in your life, I want to say to our audience that Jaylin Baker is starting a new journey. He is a very educated and smart brother. So what's going on, man? What you doing?
Speaker 2:right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, thank you Tripliner. Yeah, I am starting a PhD program this fall at Princeton Theological Seminary. I'll be entering into the history department and I will be studying the history of Christianity, particularly American Christianity. My focus is going to be on us man, it's going to be on African-American religious history and really sort of my project is going to be telling the origin story of black evangelicals in America, with the goal of really broadening the tradition of evangelicalism and not just making it synonymous with whiteness, with a religious conservatism, with Trump right. But black folks have been practicing evangelicalism for a long time and telling that story from the beginning all the way up to now, is what I want to get into at PTS. So, yeah, man, keep me in your prayers if you believe in prayers.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Our prayer how you doing, brothers, now get through this program. Now get through this program quickly. And yeah, man, looking forward to just doing some good work, doing some reading, doing some writing, just teaching as well. Yes, I'm very, very excited, bro, can't wait.
Speaker 1:Well, those that are listening to you, just hearing you explain what you're studying, it seemed like you know what he'd air. For all right, I love it, ain't trying to waste nobody time or money.
Speaker 2:Doc, I'm trying to get in and get out.
Speaker 1:Very good, very good. So me and Jay, we went to a seminary together, a Princeton Seminary. We did our master's of divinity together, and it is such a blessing to see him continue and to make this step. You mentioned Blacklist and that's going to come up today in this podcast episode, but I think it's also important to mention that both of us have experienced in ministry and white spaces as well, so we're approaching this with a level of nuance, given that it's not just something that's a theory or something written in a textbook. We have seen being brought up in Black church spaces and have grown into serving in spaces that have been more diverse. You know the opportunities that we have to do ministry in a very different way than perhaps our grandparents could ever have imagined, right, and so talk to me a little bit about. You know some of those components and moving elements as it pertains to diversity and ministry.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I think for me, man, given that God has created all of us in his image and that we are all, the fancy word is the we say Imago Dei. That's basically the Latin phrase that just translates image of God, right, like we're all. The Imago Dei, we're all. Image bears right. So really, my work, my focus, is just trying to restore the Imago Dei within all of us.
Speaker 2:Right, we live in a world, a broken world, that has distorted the image that God has created us in because of racism, sexism, classism and just so many things, right, and I think that us talking about those issues, those salient issues that impact people's lives every single day, that has just a direct impact on their lives. It allows us to become more aware of our own deficiencies, our own proclivity to sin, right, and our own prejudices as well. And it also allows us to see the world for what it actually is. And if we're able to see the world for what it actually is, we can, then we then know how to pray about it and we also know how to move within it, so that we can be a solution rather than a problem or just a neutral bystander. So I think it's very, very important.
Speaker 1:Ah, good stuff, man, good stuff. I love that you have embraced this and that you're engaging this in a really, really direct and meaningful way, and I think that that's a perfect segue to what we're talking about today. All right, so when we say folded and furious, we talking about chairs that have been folded and a fury that have accompanied that folded chair right, oh my God, oh my God, is that the same chair that Luther was thinking about?
Speaker 2:huh, it ain't the same chair. Is this a chair? It's still a chair.
Speaker 1:You're saying Luther's a chair. Don't bring up Luther man, because you know I'm a lot of oldies brother. All right, I start singing some Luther. People start thinking I ain't saying you mess around with some Luther, some Anita Baker man, I heard somebody in here.
Speaker 1:Man, a chair is still so. So if by now, at least 70% of the people viewing know that we're talking about the Montgomery Alabama bra that took place a few weeks ago, right, this was a moment. It was a cultural moment for a number of reasons. We're going to argue a little bit of that today. But really, the scene and Jake is coming off man, the scene here is we have a riverboat that's coming in through the I believe it's the Alabama River and going to its dock at the port, and there was another boat, a smaller boat, that was in the way of where they were supposed to be. The man that worked there and was at leading this particular effort eventually got off of the boat, 45 minutes, I believe, after the initial encounter, trying to get where there was supposed to be, and they were not listening to him. They were not agreeable at all. He gets off, it escalates and then we got a full out fight that takes place on the side of the pier, all right. So this went viral. Right, this went viral number one because it was a black man who worked for the city that was handling and just merely doing his job.
Speaker 1:Right, when I was in high school, I was a waiter and I have empathy for anyone who has to deal with people, because people can be problematic. I love people, don't get me wrong. I love people, right, but at the same rate I love people in certain contexts when they act enough. That's a different thing. Man, that's a different thing. So the man's just doing his job and this escalates and he gets one gone, right, he gets one gone and after this it turns into him responding and reacting to all of these men who are all of Caucasian descent, european descent, came to the aid of the aggressor and they're trying to stop, literally like they're trying to stop them out on this pier, all these folks outside with cameras, they phones, whatever else, like is this really happening, right? And then we see there's a number of people that respond. So you take it from here, tell me what you saw as it pertained to the other people that respond to this.
Speaker 2:Well. So what's interesting, right, is that, as you said, he was doing his job right, and obviously these white men were not happy that he was telling them to move their boat, which he had. Not only did he have the legal right to do, but he was telling them to do that so that their boat wasn't getting in the way of other boats that were also coming in right. So they thought that, because they were, they thought that they had the authority not only to be there but to enforce right, to take to say no, you have no right, even though you work here, even though in some ways you, you have the authority here. No, we're going to take that authority back and make sure that you know, my brother, that this is our, this is our boat, this is our city and we have every right to be here, right? So the black man then, once they start punching him out, he literally takes his hat off and those it in the air. Right, those it in the air.
Speaker 2:And some of you might be like why in the world? When he throw his hat in the air? Yeah, it was a back, it was a bat signal, it was Batman Call it. He was like yo, I need a savior, like I need people to come to my rescue. These are attacking me, these are there attacking me and I be gone. Go on. People saw that hat and was like yo Do, give me the tag down there, we gotta come to here, we gotta come to his rescue. And it was wild, right, like people came from the docks, people came down. You even saw if you watch the video family you even saw somebody jump in the water. They somebody saw from across the park and it was like, oh, I see the hat, I see the hat. He didn't get me jump in the water, swim across the river quite literally, and jump out and Showed him these hands, right, so it was. It was a fascinating moment of Solidarity, really, from both sides, right.
Speaker 2:You have a solidarity from the victim in this case, saying we're gonna come to your aid, we're gonna come together, band together to protect you. And you also have solidarity from the abuser, right? So you have one of you that come and say, yo okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna enforce my authority by punching you out and you have others join him and also In the abuse, right? So it's interesting moment man of solidarity, from, from, from two sides, and From that you get what they call the Montgomery Brawls fascinating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the Montgomery Brawls. I love that you brought up the hat, because that hat spoke to me in a similar way like I'm not sure, like I don't know, maybe that was like cold, like I don't know, if they're like rules have to pee in the terms of if something goes on, throw your hat. But when I saw him throw that hat up, when I was looking at that had air, I saw 400 years of tension, and when that was in the air, I was like man, it's about to go. Oh, like this is about to get real serious.
Speaker 1:Now you use the word, though, you use the word Solidarity, and that's a word that means a lot in our, in our culture. Does kid, cannot, cannot read into that in terms of you know how you see the lines drawn here, because I do want to ask the question. I want to ask the question, you know are we, are we wrong to assume that this, this brawl, had a racial element to it? You know, are we wrong to assume that? Are we right to assume that? What, what, what, what do you see in terms of what defines this as something, as not just being a fight, but this is a fight that very much so involved a cultural and racial component?
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. I think the reason why we're not wrong in seeing a racial element to this is because it's simply because of American history. Right like given hit the historical precedent, Especially in that place trip line.
Speaker 2:This is my in that place, Alamama right, yeah, which has been one of the most vital sites of racial terror throughout this country's history, right. So, given that place and that space, right and just given the plethora that I mean plethora of examples throughout American history when you see a black person minding their own business, doing their job right, be disrupted right by white people being upset when they don't feel like sharing, when they don't feel like a Submitting to an authority that date that they do not deem Worthy of having authority, right, these white folks in my, in my view that definitely in my view, especially giving in that place, right, these white folks did not like the fact in my, in my opinion, that it was a black person. That was like you cannot, you cannot park your boat here right, and again, this is not this, this, this is not in, this is not an anomaly, right, this is not an isolated incident. This is American history, right, and I'm grateful, right that it ended up the how it ended, because most times in American history, when, when a black person is harassed by a group of white people, right that, when they're bullied and brutalized, it does not end the way it ended in Montgomery, alabama, so, so, so I think for me, right, given the historical precedent of this country, it absolutely is racialized.
Speaker 2:Right, because there isn't that much historical precedent. Right for white people doing that, the black people not for racial reasons? Right, there isn't. But it is for the. It is. It is. It is in the other way and obviously we can't read until a person's heart, we can't read to the person's mind. We're viewing this from the outside, but we're doing this from the outside not only as Spectators, but as as people who are, who bear witness to a history of racism and racial violence in this country. So, yeah, it's definitely racialized.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so the name of this podcast is now very audacious, and the reason why it's entitled very audacious is because we're gonna have some audacious conversations, right, and we're gonna just go ahead and speak the stuff where it is and not, you know, beat around the bush, and we're gonna be audacious about Bringing faith and culture together, but not just that articulating faith through culture, the way that Paul did in Acts, chapter 17, when he was given his Ted talk on Mars Hill, right. So, right now, you know, I think that to back up what you're saying I agree with you, brother, I agree with you and to back up what you're saying, allegedly, of course, the witnesses said that there were individuals who yelled f that inward right, you know. So that was actually recorded as something being said on on the ground, or on the water, so to speak, and so that's that's an important detail. You know, in all of this that there absolutely was something Racial or cultural or tribal going on. Another thing that I will add to that is that we live in a society I was surprised, you know. You mentioned we can talk about a little bit later at length, but you mentioned the teenager that that swam over, you know, gotten to the Alabama River and swam over to support I believe his name was Damien, I think the guy that was was assaulted and and there were other people that ran down to the side of the dock. To me that that was significant.
Speaker 1:You know that you can't, you can't just gloss over that detail, because it's 2023 and we all know that when something goes down in our culture, what is the first thing that we do? We get our phones out, you know. We start recording, we start making you, we start comically things that are happening in real life on our phones through social media, we go live, etc. Instead of addressing the issue at hand, instead of actually being an active participant in mitigating you know the problem, or coming to the aid of someone. So, really, if you think about, you know our tendencies in our culture, it's not our tendency to go down and jump into the fight. It's not our tendency to jump into the water, to swim to the aid of the brother, you know.
Speaker 1:The reality here, I believe, is that all of those things are indication that something is happening, that that bystander effect that we are so prone to, the fact that that was overwritten by that behavior shows me that there was absolutely on both sides, a sense of Community solidarity, as you mentioned, you know, solidary on the, on the parts of, you know, the white folks that came in and tried to jump them. And then solidarity, you know, in terms of the black people that came to. You know, his aid, and there had to been that sense. You mentioned Montgomery. Montgomery is a storied, you know, city in terms of race relations. Of course, this is where the bus boycott started 1955. Rows of parks and, and that very location Was, was a port where slaves came into, you know, came into Alabama and were auctioned right at that port.
Speaker 1:So the fact that you know there's a black man who's in a position of authority, you know doing that, it just shows you, like the narrative of history, how far we've come and, as well as the the residue of our history which shows exactly head from time to time, you know so. So these are, you know, these are things that I think you know contribute. I don't want to take for granted that there are people to pop listening, you know, will say well, you know, I don't want to overreact, don't want to feed into a narrative, don't want to blah, blah, blah. No, I think there's enough there to say that there was something going on far beyond just. You know, people fighting on the side of a side of a pier.
Speaker 2:Absolutely and I'll have if we go and continue to be period. I think a little bit of that residue is from our contemporary times, right, I think. Then, you know, I really do believe that, particularly white people, who do have a hatred, right, whether it be implicit or explicit, or who do have a prejudice, who do have this sort of like, this implicit bias right that I am better than black people, that I am more worthy than black people. Right, I think that they are emboldened, right, when they see a police officer kill a black person and get paid leave. Right, I think that they are more worthy than black people.
Speaker 2:Right, I think that they are emboldened when they see state sanctioned violence that we, as we've been seeing over the years, right, not really be there has there hasn't really been this sort of there hasn't been. It that there has been structural solutions from the country. Right, when it comes to these police involved murders and killings, and I think that people are emboldened by that. Right, like when they see a George Zimmerman in two, in three years. Right, a George Zimmerman in two, in 2012, who was not a police officer he was a vigilante, vigilante neighborhood watchman right, um, and literally shoot an unarmed black teenager and what he calls quote unquote self-defense, right? So we and he obviously got no jail time, received no punishment, and these things are happening, all these things are happening over and over and over, year after year after year and as a country.
Speaker 2:Right, when you're not correcting these problems with solutions, whether it be through the carceral state, whether it be through the, whether really through it, through any sort of state sanctioned, through any sort of state sanctioned way, if you're not correcting these solutions, you're going to empower people right To say I can do this and get away with they attack that dude tripline, and they attack him with a certain kind of impunity. Right, I can attack this black dude and no one would do anything. Right, the state will actually come to my defense, right, if I attack this guy. Um and right, and whether they are right or wrong in that assumption, but they, they may have that assumption based on what they're seeing, right.
Speaker 2:So I think a little bit of that residue is even from our contemporary times, right, like when we don't solve these problems, when we don't address these problems head on. These are the kind of things that can happen, even in Florida, right, there's violence, and the recent thing that just happened in Florida, right, that was a racial sort of violent thing that happened in Florida as well. These things happen when we don't address racism and racial violence head on, I think. I think that's a little bit of a residue as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, there's residue and then there's got, and there's the current day. You know the issues at the current day, um, and and, and, and, and. White people don't have a monopoly on all the Um, uh, societal issues that we have in America. You know, um, you know, but we, but we have to be, we have to have the willingness to just like the prophets did, you know, speak truth to power. It is a different day, though, because you know, for the first time, montgomery's got a black mayor. You know who. You know was a judge, and you know there's a different political climate perhaps in Montgomery than there has been in years before. Um, and I'm sure there's some politicians turning over in their grave, you know, because there's a different reality. Um, but to your, to your point about you know having a willingness to address these things and to speak to them. You know, it brought to my mind. You know, the willingness of Jesus Christ. You know, when he went to his hometown to preach in Nazareth for the first time, he went to synagogue and he was handed the role of Isaiah.
Speaker 1:Isaiah has 66 chapters. My pastor, pastor James Moore, the way he puts it is the 66 books, 66 chapters of Isaiah, contain all the major themes of the 66 books of the Bible. That's how he puts it and I live by those words, and you know. So Jesus had a lot to preach from in Isaiah, and he turns to a very, very telling text in terms of how he was fashioning his ministry, not just, you know, confirming what was given, what was said about him and the prophets, but also it really shows you where his heart was. You know, and in Luke, chapter 4, verse 18, it says this the spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor, right.
Speaker 1:And so this text, of all the texts he could have used to preach, from when he was handed the scroll of Isaiah, is one that I truly believe shows the emphasis of his ministry and the willingness of him to, in the year the Lord's favor, what that year of jubilee really signifies the fact that God knew that, as God crafted a people, that there would be injustice, that because there's a part of the human nature, there's part of our brokenness and the broken world in which we live, that we're going to go straight at some point. And the year of jubilee was a time in which every 50 years was a time in which they would right those wrongs and they would make sure that property would go back to people that property was stolen from that those who were taken advantage of would be able to reclaim what's theirs, that the societal ills would be addressed. So there was an entire year in which this was structured in this community as a way to address the issue of oppression. And Jesus says that the year of jubilee yeah, I'm here, it is fulfilled in me the year of jubilee is something that I am emphasizing, but something that I embody.
Speaker 1:So I think that, for those that listen to this and kind of wonder, well, I thought this was going to be a Bible study. It is a Bible study. In a way. It is. We're talking about this, but also we're bringing the emphasis of Christ's ministry front and center, that Christ was willing to do what you said that we need to do in our time, which is speak directly to those issues, to not put them on the back burner, not put them. You know, something that we'll get to later. But he said right from the beginning I have come to preach to marginalized people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I love that, because I think what led Jesus to make that statement is something that I think we also have to do as Christians. Right? So when we look at something like the Montgomery Brawls people are calling it right I think there are so many questions that could pop out to us, like why did they have to fight, why did they have to respond this way, like why did it have to lead to that violence? Right, which are, all you know, perfectly valid questions. But I think questions that Jesus was asking was he's trying to get beneath the surface. Jesus was asking questions like what created the conditions for this right to even happen.
Speaker 2:Right, like what led up to this? Right, like what's going on in people's hearts, what's going on in people's souls, what's going on in people's minds to where, when they were put in this situation, it leads to this sort of escalation right Now, I think Jesus is asking those kind of questions. I think that we're also called to ask those kinds of questions too, because, to your point, because Jesus asked those questions that led him to say yo, the reason why we are, one of the reasons why we are what we are, is because there is structural oppression toward marginalized people. Right, so I've come to set the cap is free.
Speaker 2:Because, in order for us to really fix the brokenness of this world and ask, a very important aspect of us fixing the brokenness of this world is really confronting structural and systemic oppression of marginalized people. Right, so I think Jesus thought in those structural or systemic terms which led him to Isaiah. Right, he's like, in order for me to really give a healthy diagnosis of this world, I got to start here. I got to start here because, in order for me to really fix, to get at the heart of the thing, right, I got to start with the ways in which systems and structures are truly designed right To inflict violence, inflict harm on people who are people who have their backs against the wall, right. So, yeah, I think Jesus really does that and I think we have to take up his ministry in that way as well, asking those same sort of questions, so that we can be like the Savior in that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good stuff, man. So kind of like taking that and thinking about the emphasis of his ministry, him speaking to the context and the things that make these sorts of problems possible. Of course, we got us at some point sit in the seat of the brother that defended himself, right? Mr Damian Pickett I believe his name was Damian Pickett is at the dock. He's not sitting at the dock of the bay like Otis is writing, but he's working at the dock. At the dock and bro man trying to his job. Man, he's trying to his job, like he ain't trying to. I mean, he may be a little agitated, but who wouldn't be? After 45 minutes of trying to? At some point I'm going to have to de-anchor your boat, you know, and I'm going to have to move you up out of here, because I've got a boat full of people and you in my way, you know we're supposed to be.
Speaker 1:So my question for you, jake, you know, if you are in a position and this is this is prior to this becoming a tribal thing, this is prior to becoming a race thing, right, If you're in this situation and I can't even say prior to, because there probably was a the essence of it already present right the minute that they defied him. And then also, you know, he got approached right and they tried to intimidate him. Right, the man tried to intimidate him. How do you respond? Like, like, how do you? I mean, is it, is it okay to defend yourself? Like what, like what, like how? How am I? That's me, you know, if I'm the person in that situation and I feel the weight of the moment, if I, even if it's not articulated, if I feel that there is something going on here that's more than just me in my position and my authority versus your wishes, but there is a, there's a cultural dynamic, you know, if I feel all of that, am I wrong for defending myself? Because, brother, just swing back, you just swing back.
Speaker 2:Definitely swing back, yes, and call for other people to come to his aid. And he had in the air.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean and that had in the air was like everybody, let's go.
Speaker 2:Because he wanted to have a cookout. He wanted him to come to defend him. You know what I'm saying? Right? I think it's a very important question, especially for us, for the Christian. Right, because I think that the Bible definitely speaks to particularly Jesus, definitely speaks to how we are to respond to evil or violence. Right?
Speaker 2:So a scripture that comes to mind automatically and people are going to notice around the top of their heads, even if they're not a Christian you've heard this before which is turn the other cheek. Right so, matthew, chapter five, you know, 38 through 40, jesus says I say to you, do not resist the, do not resist the one who is evil, but if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him, turn to him the other. Also, and this is one of those scriptures that every Christian read, this John, and they like dang Jesus really, though, really, dog, really. And for me, I think it's important to understand this, this, this particular scripture, in its context, right? So let's go back to the Beatitudes. The Beatitudes one of the Beatitudes Jesus says is blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God. Right, so Jesus automatically calls us to be peacemakers, which is to not escalate conflict or escalate any violence, right?
Speaker 2:So, in this situation and I want to take you to this, to this particular context right so, back in those times, if some and it's kind of similar to David in some ways too but if someone were to slap you across the face, that wasn't an insult, right, they're literally slapping you because they are trying to assert a certain authority of you over you and they're trying to insult you. Right? So it's like someone saying F you through a physical act, right, but usually, though, if someone slaps you across the face, they will stop at one slap. Right, they wouldn't, they're not going to, they're not going to slap you more than once. Right? So Jesus is saying, in that situation, in this situation of conflict, right, as a child of God, I'm calling you not to slap them back. I'm calling you not to insult them back. Because, why? Because, because I want you to create peace and not further conflict. Right, I want you to take this, this very extraordinarily toxic and conflictuous situation, right, and I want you to really narrow it down. I want you to calm the waters here so that you can truly get to a place of reconciliation and redemption and restoration, and not want to further conflict and violence. Right Again, as Christians, jesus has a higher calling for all of us, right, and the good news, I think, for you and I and for everybody out in the trip line, is that we ain't got to depend on our flesh or our minds to carry this thing out. We got the power of the Holy Spirit, who is who, who indwells us and who empowers us to, to, to, to, to really take up this, this, that, even with that content, I'm still like Jesus, do just slap me. You know, I'm like why, really, really, just for real. Now, this, so, so, this contextual situation is different than what happened in Montgomery, right, so in Montgomery, they need to snap. Oh boy, they were punching him out. Right, they were Brutalizing him, they were bullying him.
Speaker 2:Right, and I want to take it to another text, right, so I want to take it a Luke, chapter 20, chapter 22, and I want to look at verses 33 oh sorry. 35 through 38, 35, 38, right, so check this out. Church. So think about this. So this is so.
Speaker 2:Jesus is given the disciples their post resurrection mission, right, so after Jesus ascends, right, the disciples will be called to go out and spread the gospel. So Jesus is like okay. So now, when y'all go out and spread the gospel, here's what I want you to do, right? So this is, I'm gonna go to 30, say he said to them, but now let the one who has a money bag take it. So you gonna need, you gonna need a little cash, you gonna need, you gonna need some money, right, yeah, and likewise, a nap sack and let the one who has no sword Sell his cloak and buy a sword.
Speaker 2:Now, why is he telling him to buy the disciples, to buy a sword? Right, because when you're out there spreading the gospel, people, robbers, might come up on you and try to take the money that I just told you to have. Right, so, in order for you to protect yourself, in order for you to defend yourself against robbers and thieves, right that might come up on you, buy a sword. That way, you can do that way if someone attacks you right, not not slap you, but if someone attack, brutally, attacks you and try to take your stuff, you have every right to defend yourself, right? So, in that, but that context, right, as a Christian, I'm thinking about two things. I'm thinking about okay, I'm called to be this peacemaker, even though I don't feel like making no peace right now.
Speaker 2:Peacemaker right, but I also have to defend myself. Right, and to me, trip line, this goes back to the Mago day. Right, the image of God is in me. It is also in my brother, who I might come to defend, and when these abusers attack me, right, they attack my fellow brother or my fellow sister. Right, I have to also defend the Mago day that they're trying to destroy. Right, and I feel like Jesus gives us full credence to defend ourselves because we're worthy, our lives are worthy, to be defended right from someone who is unjustly attacking us. Right. So, but, but there is that line though, right, because I, because sometimes you know, I'm saying when you, when you defend yourself and you and you get a, you get a good knockout in there and they fade back. You want to keep punching them, right, you want to be like I'm a keep, I'm a keep punching you out. Right, you shouldn't have stepped up all. You stepped up on the roll one today. Now you about to find out, you about to learn for real today.
Speaker 1:That's vengeance. Oh, oh, is that vengeance. Now I like what you were saying until you said that you had me until then.
Speaker 2:That's vengeance. Right, that's vengeance. You protected yourself, you defended yourself. Now let vengeance be the Lord's. God got him, god got him, he got him, he got them. Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. That's not your calling, that ain't your ministry. You defended yourself. Now walk away, right. Walk away and again, even in these scenarios, right, we need the Holy Spirit like we need that wisdom. We need the discernment so that we can know that line of the Defending ourselves and making peace. So I think that I think all that is relevant to this conversation.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's good man. That's good man. You happy until vengeance, because Well, we're in your flesh.
Speaker 1:I was in my, I was like Drake, I'm in my feelings, man, like. So, yeah, you know there's a thin line. I think I think you're spot on. I think you're spot on in regards to you know, there is absolutely a provision for us to defend, um, to defend others, to defend what God has given us to be a steward over. But there absolutely is a thin line between, Uh, you know, defensive protection versus, you know, aggression and escalation. You know, and escalation definitely. I mean, if you're escalating this, if you're antagonizing, then clearly you're not operating in the, the blessing or the happiness of being a peacemaker, right, um, and so I want to, I want to kind of take a turn, because you know this episode is entitled, folded and furious right.
Speaker 1:And so, now that we've engaged, you know this issue of you know vengeance, the dirty word- and that. That the thin line between self-defense and getting my lip back. You know what I mean. You started it, bro. You started it. You started it.
Speaker 2:Don't start, that won't be nothing. Man, don't start, that won't be nothing. You know what I mean? It's simple.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. That is song 151. All right, don't start. Nothing won't be nothing. So check, so, check me out, check me out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, you know, without getting too far from the text, you know, jesus also at one point Showed us what some might call righteous indignation. Right, absolutely, absolutely, um, and and I don't think Jesus had any folding chairs, um, but he did have some tables and and I think it's in, uh, let's see John, chapter 2, um, verse 13. That reads this the Passover of the Jews was near and Jesus went up to Jerusalem and the temple. He found people selling cattle, sheep and does and the muddy changers seated at their tables, making a whip of cords. He drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. Yeah, he told those who were selling the dogs take these things out of here, stop making my father's house a marketplace. His disciples remembered that it was written zeal for your house will consume me. So we see here that Jesus is mad because folks is acting real capitalistic.
Speaker 1:Um, in in the temple, right, and uh, and because of his righteous indignation. I mean, jesus did not stand, you know, on earth. He did not sin in his, in his earthly existence. Um, we know that it's nothing wrong with being Righteously angry, right, um? We know that there's nothing wrong that, in the spirit of God, having a sense of disdain, um, for evil, for brokenness, for people that are problematic, for practices, um, that are problematic, ain't nothing wrong. We're getting a little tight, you know, when it comes to those things, because Jesus took the table and he turned them jokers over, right, um, I wish I was a fly on the temple walls to see that one, you know so.
Speaker 1:So, when we think about the sin, there's a lot of thin lines here, right, a lot of thin lines. When we think about the thin line between, um vengeance and righteous indignation, you know, uh, we think about the thin line, you know, between escalation and peacemaking. You know, what are we to think about? Regi Ray now, does that? Do we all know about regi ray? Um, regi ray was another person. Now, I want to say this of all the people that were arrested, at least five Were arrested in this case, four of which were the original aggressors um that attack, mr Pickett, who was doing his job, I don't know what regi ray does for living, but regi ray showed up, all right regi ray.
Speaker 1:Regi ray said you know what? Somebody gonna pay my name regi right? Yeah, I have my name.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. I'm like dr Susan here today. Yeah, so this man is seen, and I'm gonna say this, Watching videos of things. It's very tempting to think that when you see something on a video, that you understand what is going on. Now I think that when we watch these snippets of things, we see these little sound bites, if you will. We jumped to conclusions and I'm gonna admit that when I saw Reggie Reg pick up that folding chair and I've seen that folding chair before that was a Baptist folding chair. All right, I know a Baptist folding chair when I see it. All right, that was from somebody's church, right.
Speaker 2:I hope it wasn't in his church.
Speaker 1:I hope it wasn't in his church. It probably was, though it probably was. It probably was. That was a church folding chair, right, I've seen that in the fellowship hall. Now, when he pulls up the folding chair and hits it, my first thought, you know, because no one was actively in that moment hitting him I'm like bruh, you know, you took this to a different level. Now, four people were different, four people were arrested and then Reggie Ray was arrested. Now, reggie Ray is a hero in many estimations, right, because with the folding chair became an icon. We saw memes all over the place. Right, people started selling all kinds of paraphernalia with folding chairs.
Speaker 1:It was a moment, and I'm gonna be honest, like we're very audacious in this space, I'm gonna be honest, even as a pastor, there was something inside of me that understood. There was something inside of me that understands that the fed up mentality, like enough is enough, and the same way that, you know, damien Pickett probably felt that they were charging at him with all of these layers of context, racial context, that, I'm sure, for Reggie Ray, you know, picking up that chair is probably just as nuanced, just as contextualized. You know, there's probably layers and levels to it, but I knew at that moment, brother, you about to catch a case. Oh yeah, oh yeah, you know, and he caught it. We'll see what happens, you know. I don't know what you know, because there are laws. So there's you brought up Zimmerman earlier and there's this issue of self-defense, but there's also, in several states, you know, not just the issue of standing your ground but also the issue of the defense of others, and in Alabama there is. There are laws that speak to you know how can one person stand in the defense of others, and I think that the attorney that's representing most of these individuals, especially on the cases of those who were on the side of Damien Pickett, has already given us a clue that they're gonna make an argument regarding whether or not he was an aggressor or whether or not he was operating in the defense and the protection of other people. Now, that can go both ways, all right. So you know, so that it gets real hairy, it gets real questionable.
Speaker 1:Another legal concept would be qualified immunity Me and if you've heard that term, qualified immunity, you probably have heard it in the context of former President Trump giving police officers, you know, this degree of qualified immunity in terms of how they handle protesters in the wake of George Floyd and various riots and Black Lives Matter protests, et cetera. So it's gonna get real hairy. But I wanna say, you know how do we begin to think about this? You know, the lifting of the chair, the using the chair as a weapon. You know, to me it kind of looks like when you watch it. You know, I see it. Man, this brother, you took it to a different level.
Speaker 2:you know it was assault, it was assault, it was assault.
Speaker 1:So you're clear about where you stand on this. This is assault.
Speaker 2:You know what and this might be another audacious take on my end right, I think for me, as Black people, we have to be careful and this is why, I think, you know, christianity for me is so important. We have to be careful with our hearts and minds and how we're caring for it, especially living in a racist country. Right, we have to be careful because the last thing we want to become is our oppressors. Right, the last thing we, the last thing we want to do is sort of pick up the habits, the attitudes and actions of the people who've been oppressing us. Right? So that woman was literally sitting down, minding her own business, not bothering anybody. Does that sound familiar? You know what I'm saying? Does that sound familiar?
Speaker 2:Right, and he literally takes a folding chair, which in this case, was a weapon, right, and literally, just, oh my God, he literally, like, just takes it over her head and hits her with it. Right, it was such a violent. You know what I'm saying? And I think, right, obviously there are conditions that led to that act. And as much as you want to say as black people, right, that's for every other, that's for everything y'all have ever done to us. No, family, we can't be that way, right, like that's not what the gospel calls us to, that's not what Jesus calls us to.
Speaker 1:Come on, preach man preach.
Speaker 2:It's not what he calls us to quite literally make peace right, and the way in which you make peace in that situation is by letting it go right. We've defended our brother. Our brother is okay. He didn't die today. He didn't like this, did not end up the way it could have ended up, because we stepped in and protected him and defended him, and that was our, I would say, gospel duty. We defended him, we defended the Amago day that was in him, and now it's time to let the vengeance be the Lord.
Speaker 2:He took into his own hands man, and I think that could happen to us when we are not taking care of our hearts and minds and we developed this deep seated hatred right Of our oppressors, to the point to where we dehumanize them right Like the woman that he knocked out with that chair. That's somebody's daughter, that's somebody's wife, that's somebody's cousin. That's a full fledged human being he just assaulted right, and she was created in God's image too and she does not deserve that right Like she's not worthy of that. So we gotta be careful. We gotta be careful with how we think about our oppressors sometimes, so that we're not turning becoming the very people that are oppressing God's. We gotta be careful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I did my best job. I really laid it out there. I tried to play the devil's advocate to see if I can get you to move a little bit. Oh man.
Speaker 2:So in my flesh I wanna move right there, but man.
Speaker 1:I get it. I get it. I'm being being being fully honest. When I first saw that, I gasped. I was like, oh, I like bro.
Speaker 1:So I saw a chair, I saw the chair memes before I saw the video. So I'm like, well, what is this thing about this chair that everybody's talking about? And then I'm watching like, oh man, they assaulted this brother on the dock. You know he's doing the job. I mean, at the time I wasn't sure who was who and what was what, but I can see very well that the black man was not Damien Pickett, was not the aggressor in the situation, at least not physically. And then even then, we know now, he was literally a city employee.
Speaker 1:Now, when it got to that part, I was just like wow, like this is on a different level and it felt. It felt like obvious access. It felt like, you know, we just took it too far, right. And when I say we, I'm talking about him, you know. So I think that you know one meme that I saw which was comical Martin Luther King statue down in DC. You know the stone. And then they photoshopped the chair and Martin's hand, you know, and I'm like y'all, really, y'all just doing too much. I'm doing too much. And also Martin Luther King. You know my fraternity brother, the great past preacher, he was the father.
Speaker 1:He was the father of American you know nonviolent resistance.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Now, this brother, behind me though, the brother. Now, here's the other one.
Speaker 1:Now talk to me about Malcolm X. Give me something. What would Malcolm say about this?
Speaker 2:We can't get into Malcolm too much, because we ain't the nation of Islam.
Speaker 1:We ain't the nation.
Speaker 2:We ain't the nation. And I think too, man I think I was also going to sort of add to what you were saying too is that I think a lot of people biblically would say you know, brother Jaylin, tripline bro, an, I for an, I, two for two. But what's interesting about that law in the Old Testament was that it actually was meant to prevent what that brother did with their folded chair. That law was created right so that justice can be impugned. So like literally if I take your eye, I can only take your eye, I can't take your eye, your arm and your leg, I only can take your eye right. So it literally was just like so a punishment has to fit the crime that was committed. So even that law don't really give that much credence to the chair. You know what I'm saying. It was over the top, it really was, it really was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think something that you said a little bit earlier about becoming the oppressor. I don't have a text on offhand right now, but the overarching narrative of the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament. You cannot miss this point. You know, you cannot miss the point that the prophets have come onto the scene. This is after the Promised Land, right, I mean Moses brought it to.
Speaker 1:But for someone talking to the major minded prophets, they come onto the scene, they are speaking truth to power, but they're also speaking to the Israelites as a whole and saying you are not doing what God has called you to do. You are not treating people the way that God has called you to treat them. You are doing some of the exact same things that were done to you in Egypt. I brought you out of Egypt, I liberated you. But here's the key.
Speaker 1:The key is when God is always on the side of the liver or side of the oppressed right. God is always on the side of those who need liberation, because God is a liberator. Even though those people were His chosen people, it did not change the fact that he was on the side of those who were oppressed. So the reality is, y'all went from oppression in Egypt to now going to the Promised Land and now creating your habitat, creating your life, creating your culture, creating your existence and identity as a people. And it does not change the fact that, just because you are now in a different dispensation in terms of your being as a people, that different rules apply. No, the same rules apply to you, and the minute that they started to take on the behaviors of their oppressor, that's when they started seeing captivity and they started seeing a whole bunch of other things, and those prophecies that the prophets gave them came true.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right, that's right. And I know that this topic has been such a hot button issue in our culture and all that kind of stuff. But I really just want to encourage all Christians out there that these topics can be thoughtfully engaged with through a biblical lens. Right, you do not have to shield yourself from your faith to engage with these topics, right? Right, and hopefully what we've done today is really just encourage you to activate your faith when it comes to these things so that you can live as a Christian and you don't have to live this sort of compartmentalized life Like I'm black over here, I'm a woman over here, I'm miss over here and I'm a Christian over here, and now you can be all the things at one time engaging with these issues. So, yeah, I think it's very, it's vitally important and you brought it home with that point. I really I think you did.
Speaker 1:I love it, man. Thank you so much. I'm going to say this to everybody that is watching. You know the way you just summed that up brother really is the heart of what very audacious is. You know, the audacity that we are to walk into is the audacity to be able to interpret the word of God and the things of God through the time, in the culture in which we live. And I think that I mentioned before act 17,.
Speaker 1:You know Paul, or Mars Hill, it's very clear. We hear the verse, you know, with him we live, move, we live, move and have our being. And we hear that in songs. And we hear that because it sounds like God. But Paul was actually using the poets of the day and the philosophers of the day, the things that they said, you know, about their different deities. They had many in that paganistic culture and he used that language to show them how their ideas of deity and faith and God fell short on its own terms and how they needed to turn to the God of creation, the God of the God, of the true God of this world, the only living God. And I'm excited about the ways in which we get to engage things through the word and I'm grateful for all of you that are here and will be here. Please do us a favor.
Speaker 1:This week we're going to be posting on social media some questions as it pertains to this conversation. We want to hear from you as we continue to go further in this podcast. We're going to be developing different segments and in those segments you're going to have an opportunity to chime in, opportunity to leave us voicemails, opportunity to give us your feedback. If you disagree with something that we said, that is perfectly okay. You know, Jaylin is my brother. I love him dearly, but I don't always agree with him and he don't always agree with me, you know, and we coexist in that space because we're brothers and we love each other. Right, and if you have a perspective that you want to add, we're going to give you opportunities to go live with this podcast, to chime in through multiple platforms, and one of those platforms that I want to say Instagram. Follow us at at.
Speaker 1:Very audacious, you know so the little at sign, little A, with a little swerve on it. Very audacious, you can do the same thing on YouTube. Go to youtubecom slash. Very audacious. Make sure you follow us on YouTube. Follow us on Instagram, follow us on tic-tac. We got the same name. Now, people wanted this podcast to be called audacious, but there are many audacious podcasts out there. We added the very so that you could find us All right. The reason why we're very audacious is because we want you to be very audacious and typing in your phone that name, following us, meeting us on all of those platforms. So, whatever you do social media, we're there. Wherever you listen to podcasts, we're there. Definitely. Follow us on YouTube, because you can actually watch this experience. If you're on Spotify right now, you can actually watch this experience on YouTube, and there's a lot coming down the pipe. I'm excited, Jalen. Thank you so much, Yo. I'm going to have a word of prayer, because you were starting school, man, and and to be a PhD student.
Speaker 1:You know, to be a PhD student A lot of people think it's just you know. You know big learning, you know and it is, but it's also big work. And you know you're in preparation not just to learn and deepen your exploration of, you know, evangelicalism in America, liberation, all the other things and different theological constructs, but also you know you're learning how to teach. You know and you're going to be teaching students at Princeton Seminary, which I just love it, because when we were there, you would have wrinkled a fire. You kept us together, you know, and now you get to do that in a very. You kept each other together. I'm going to tell the truth. You kept us together, man, and we all the whole entire squad thanks you for that, you know, and now the students at Princeton Seminary can experience that in official capacity. So I'm grateful for that. So we have a word of prayer, and let's us pray.
Speaker 1:I'm going to turn it about, but just thank you for this day, for this conversation. We understand that there's so much in our world and our time that we have to nuance and light of your word that you have preserved so that we might be able to understand your heart and have instruction and application for how you would have us to move in our day to day lives. And I thank you, god, for giving us the opportunity to see culture in this way and to find application for our lives so that we might give you glory in every component and facet of our existence. And I thank you, God, for my brother, jalen, who is doing this and continues to grow in this, as you have opened the door for him to continue in his theological education. Allow him to be fortified for this experience. Give him the strength and also give him the rest and I think on those thousand page read and assignments, as well as the assignments that he will have in terms of nurturing and caring for and teaching and bringing things into perspective as a teaching assistant for the master students that are there.
Speaker 1:We just thank you, god, that you've given him a platform and we pray that you will use him to both challenge and edify and build up those individuals, but also give him a platform to to bring his pastoral nature and ministry so that they will know that it's not just about a grade, is not just about a degree, but it's also about formation and us becoming who you would have us to be. We thank you for the space. Very audacious, allow us to walk in it. Keep the main thing. The main thing. Be your light in a dark world. In Jesus name, amen.
Speaker 2:Amen Much love. Thank you so much for that, bro, much love.
Speaker 1:Yep, appreciate your brother. All right, everybody, we are signing out. We will see you next week. We will be talking about a few things in the week to come. I believe Lizzo is going to be on that short list of things. So we got a lot to talk about. We got some movies, got a whole bunch of stuff in and everything is fair game If it's part of culture and that's about everything, we can talk about it and engage it. I'm looking forward to it. God bless y'all and see y'all soon. See you later.