Very Audacious
An audacious podcast that dares to interpret faith through culture. Embrace your audacity.
Very Audacious
CHURCH GIRL
Sean Tripline and Jalen Baker discuss Beyonce, Renaissance, body positivity, sexual positivity, coping mechanisms, and how we allow spaces for church girls (and boys) to be fully authentic.
Welcome to very audacious, the podcast where we audaciously delve into faith, culture and everything in between. I'm your host, sean Tripline, and we're not holding back, so buckle up for this audacious ride, as the weather is daring as we are. Don't forget to like, share and subscribe. Very Audacious Family, vafam. What's up everybody. It's good to see you again in this space that we call Very Audacious. I've already stated my name. Let me state the name of the brother, the co-host and God that stands in this space with us each and every week. His name is none other than. He's laughing right now because the music came on again and I had a right to laugh.
Speaker 2:Hey, still working out the game. We said fit the episodes and we'll be good.
Speaker 1:Fit the episodes and we will be good. All right now. I took the loop off last time.
Speaker 2:See one of these days I'm gonna have help Jay.
Speaker 1:One of these days I'm gonna have help, but until then we have to deal with my human limitations.
Speaker 2:We're working with what we got. Hey, man, it's good to be with you again. So I was a pleasure, bro. I was a pleasure. Can't wait to jump into the conversation today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Pastor Jaylen Baker is with us, Of course. He has offered so much tremendous help as we have navigated this season and I gotta put him on the pedestal because he's my brother.
Speaker 2:And he got folks fighting for him too, so I gotta make sure I, my people, tell me that she, my people said that you weren't giving me enough credit. Trip line if they said, they said, if they said bro.
Speaker 1:They don't know I love you just as much as they do.
Speaker 2:They don't realize that.
Speaker 1:They don't realize that me and you have fought many battles together on the same lines.
Speaker 2:Now, this is definitely your baby, your project. You invited me along for the ride. You do the producing, you pick out all the topics and the themes I just show up. I'm alone for the ride. Man, I'm grateful for everything you do, for the podcast man for sure.
Speaker 1:Man, the fact that you can show up and do what you do just speaks to the person and the quality who you are man, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:So let's Look at us trying to out-buddy each other up. Man, what's going on with this? I don't like this right now. We need to get past this section of the podcast.
Speaker 1:Now which episode of this is episode five. Right, you know what I mean, is it episode five?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so every five episodes. You know what I mean. I got to make sure we know what's going on. You know what I'm saying. I got to make sure they know. You know Facts, facts facts, facts, yes sir. Yes, sir, so family today we are jumping into a new theme.
Speaker 1:It has been so much fun talking about the stuff that we have engaged thus far, but today we're going to talk about something everyone has talked about in the culture at one point or another, because if you are touched at all by R&B, if you were touched at all by pop music, you know the name of Beyonce, you know how much of a star she is throughout culture and people to this day are still talking about the Renaissance tour and people to this day are still buying tickets across the globe, and she is that big of a star that only her and perhaps Taylor Swift are compared on that level of who is the biggest pop star in this regard.
Speaker 2:You know I got to step in and just say but don't forget about Queen Adele, don't forget about my girl Adele. You know what I'm saying. I just got to put in a shameless plug for my girl Adele. Don't leave her out there on the wayside. Love, queen Bee, love. You know Taylor Swift is all of that. But hey, I'm just saying Adele is out here and, let's be honest, can sing better than both of them. I'm just going to leave it right there.
Speaker 1:Now for those of you most of our listeners listening on Apple Podcast, but those of you that are on YouTube, you can see the look on my face right now and to say that Adele can sing better than Beyonce to me.
Speaker 2:You know, okay, okay, maybe there may have been a bit overstated I mean, personally, I'm going to, I'm a team of, I'm a team of Dell, I'm not going to lie. But Beyonce can sing, but T Swift is not even in their strategy. Singing wise, singing wise, it's not even in their strategy.
Speaker 1:Right, aren't you going to an Adele event pretty soon? I'm going to hit it to.
Speaker 2:Vegas, doc. For my 30th birthday I'm going to go see Adele Hit it to Vegas, doc, catching that plane Midnight train to Vegas, baby, not Georgia to Vegas.
Speaker 1:Wow Now I've never been to Vegas. I've traveled all over the world. I've never been to Vegas, so I'm jealous in that regard. But never would you hear the words come out of my mouth that I'm traveling across the country this year.
Speaker 2:Hey, I'm going to tell you something here on very audacious. We feel free to be our full, authentic selves.
Speaker 1:And I am Adele.
Speaker 2:Stan, I love me some of the day, I love it. Hey man, I'm here. I'm here for the queen.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right. So I had an adult season for maybe like a year, but that was based off of the young lady I was dating at the time. I think it was, I don't know what we do for love 23, 21. I don't know what you all mean. She was in her 20s at the time.
Speaker 2:Oh man.
Speaker 1:I remember a song or two that was pretty cool, but other than that, you know.
Speaker 2:I let it all go. You had a frozen hermeneutic for Adele.
Speaker 1:Yo, let's not talk about Adele. I did not come to this podcast to talk about it.
Speaker 2:Hey, I agree with you. Beyonce is in the culture, she's selling that across the country. And you know, the interesting thing about Beyonce, I think, right now, for me is I think that her political evolution as an artist has created a cultural shift in such a way to where I think that some of the things you see happening in the real world, right, like her song, you won't break my soul. Right, that song. She's saying in that song, I just quit my job, I'm going to find new drive. They working me so dang on hard by nine than all past five. They work my nose, they work my nerves. That's why I can't sleep at night. Right, that literally echoes the writer's strike in California, the actor's strike, the auto worker's strike. You have a complete wave of Americans in particular, right, who are making this claim that these industries, these industries and this culture will not break my soul. Right, they will not continue to exploit my labor.
Speaker 2:I think Beyonce's music and her political evolution as an artist has her in tune with the general ethos and general tenor of where we are as a culture. Right, because Beyonce is not just singing love songs. Right, we love her corpus, we love her, love all her albums. Right, but as she's oh yeah, we love all her stuff as she's evolved right, she's now speaking to the hearts and the minds of people, of everyday, ordinary working people. Right, she's also talking to black consciousness, black self-love, all those things.
Speaker 2:So I think a song like Break my Soul has become such an anthem, not just for her fans, but it's implicitly becoming an anthem really just for the working class, for the working culture in America. You won't break my soul, so she kind of forecast. It'll foreshadow the striped sort of revolution that's happening right now in America, because this song came out like last summer. So I think Beyonce has her finger on something in the culture in a way that I think is really unique. I think that it. I think it's also interesting that she's selling out stadiums with these political messages where Taylor Swift is singing about love songs you Belong With Me, all the things, all that Swift people love. But Beyonce is speaking directly to the political consciousness of all of us when she's at these concerts.
Speaker 2:She's giving me some love songs too. It's just some love on top in there. You know what I'm saying. But it's more. People are going to Beyonce to be humanized, to be encouraged, to be uplifted because they're exhausted from their everyday lives, working and stuff like that. So I think that that's fascinating. When we think about Beyonce sort of cultural, when we think about her cultural phenomenon in the culture right now she's speaking to a lot of different kinds of people I think that's fascinating.
Speaker 1:I think it's fascinating to bro on several levels and one level I think I got like five years on you somewhere around there and if I'm wrong if it's more, don't, don't say it All right.
Speaker 1:When I think about Beyonce, it is fascinating to see this because, number one, my introduction to Beyonce was in the heyday of Destiny's Child, right, and I remember how young Beyonce was when she came to fame. I remember how young she was when, when Destiny's Childs put out writings on the wall, songs like, say, my name, or bills, bills, bills, or Jumping, jumping. I mean that album really had so many hit songs that you could just play it from beginning to end and it was like every song probably was on the radio. But when I think about what she's evolved into, when you talk about the work in class, let's be very clear Beyonce has never been the working class person, all right, she's Her father. Her father was a corporate executive prior to her, her blowing up with, you know, girl time, and then it became Destiny's Child and it became her solo act, and so she's never had that sort of experience.
Speaker 1:It's always interesting to me to see the individuals who rise up to become the voice, this populist voice you know, of the people In a way that you know. You see, even in hip-hop, you see, like Drake, you know, people talk about Drake. Drake is the biggest star you know in hip-hop. I would argue he's not the best rapper in my opinion, but he is the biggest star in hip-hop, if you ask me and he's somebody, we remember him.
Speaker 1:You know, on the grassy, you know on the on the kids show, the Canadian kids show, for back in the day, like how you talk about trapping, how you talking about being on these streets, how you talking about you know. You know All these different things are happening in the urban context. Number one, you from Canada, all right, and. And number two, you are. You're a child star on television before you ever were in hip-hop. How does, for you, you know, when you think about these, these heralds of this populist message of people who go through everyday lives, how do you process their personal narrative as it pertains to the message that they're purporting?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I think for me, Beyonce sort of evolution as a, as a sort of political artist I'm just gonna call her a political artist like she was. She, and during the Super Bowl half-time show she gave an on my for the black campus During the Super Bowl half-time show I think it was when she did with Bruno Mars is a few years back. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I remember that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think she's a separate claim feminist, right, and she also, like she also takes up sort of like these very academic terms like intersectionality, thinking about, you know, race, gender, class, how all these things impact people's lives.
Speaker 2:I think that she got to this place Really based on her fans, right. Her fans are who? Black women, black people, black, queer people. So it's like Beyonce saying to honor my fans, I need to really figure out how I can be my, how I can represent them, represent them the most in my music, right? I think that is what has led to the sort of evolution for her is that, as she has matured in life, she said let me take a step back and honor not only the culture, but let me honor my people in the diversity of that, that, that, that that that comes with really in my family, and I give her a lot of credit for that right, because I think for her this could have come at a huge, huge financial risk, right like she could have lost sponsorship, she could have lost endorsement deals, people could have stopped by her music, but she still stepped out and did it, and she's still selling out stadiums, right?
Speaker 2:And I love that point because it shows you that when you take an integral position, especially when you're making the sort of claims that Beyonce is making, you won't break my soul, right? That's a spiritual claim. Oh yeah, she ain't saying you won't break my body, you won't break my bones, you won't break my soul, right? There's something inherent within me, within my personhood, that that that dignifies my humanity and I will not let you tear that down. I'm worthy, I'm worth too much to God.
Speaker 2:I think Beyonce would say I'm worth too much to God for you to exploit me, for you to Dehumanize me. So therefore, as she said, I'm gonna quit my job, I'm gonna do what I love, because I would not allow you to break my soul. Or, if you're a union worker in America, I'm gonna go on strike until you give me everything that I'm worthy of, because I would not allow you to break my soul. So I think that she's creating music for, for, for, for working people, for her fans, so that they can resist the very resist, the system, systems that are breaking their souls, so that they so they can, they can be fully embodied and fully humanized and really live into their, their authentic selves. I think it's a powerful thing that she has done, for sure, I.
Speaker 1:I love the fact that you're giving this analysis Regarding the tropes that she has employed in her music, as well as the images, like you mentioned, the Black Panther piece with the Super Bowl Half-time show, all of that. I think that that's that's key, because when we think about very audacious and what we are called to do in this space, which is interpreting faith through the culture, we cannot gloss over the culture. You know, we have to be intent about this, this, what culture means, what it looks like, and we need to have integrity as it pertains to understanding the culture on the culture's terms and not just kind of looking past it to get to the finish line. And I think that everything you just said is important because, for those listening to this conversation, we're not just exploring. You know a song in the way in which we just listen to a drop down the street.
Speaker 1:You know you already my soul, thinking about it, you know, on that surface level.
Speaker 1:But, and there are people that enjoy her music on a surface level but also understand that there are many people who are very much so keen on the various things that you just Mention and when we, when we engage someone like Beyonce, we want to make sure, or we engage any part of the culture, we want to make sure we are actually doing that Work, that they're presenting justice and realizing that it is a piece of art.
Speaker 1:You know that that is artistic and and because it is artistic, there are various things being employed to get that message across. Now you just said, because of the language of you, you will break my soul. Obviously that puts a light bulb above my head, because this whole podcast is a growth out of the soul quest, bible study that you were a part of, clearly spiritual language, clearly things that one could delve into as we understand the soul to be our essential selves, the soul being of the parts of us that are Intangible, things, that that have been implanted in us by God, you know things that are specific to us Because we have been made in the image and likeness of God.
Speaker 1:We're the crowning jewel of God's creation. So we talk about the soul. For us. That has a level of weight, it has a meaning that that that word means something in the in the Hebrew, it means something in the Greek.
Speaker 1:We, we do word studies, breaking that down right and and when I think about the whole corpus of the music, not just you will break my soul, but also Songs like formation and church girl and others throughout her her Renaissance album, what, what, what do you see as it pertains to these, these mentions of terms that can be seen as soulish or Terms that can be spiritual even? I mean, I'm reminded of In church girls. There's a, there's a line where she's talking about, you know, no, nobody can judge me but me. I was born free, you know. These are, these are lines that speak to who, how we see ourselves, our anthropology as Christians. You know, and and I and I don't want to say that she's a representative of the faith in any way I know from back in my childhood that, you know, destiny's Child is always put out, a gospel song on the album, you know.
Speaker 2:I.
Speaker 1:I felt connected to them and that you know, I heard the R&B song or heard the love song, whatever else, but also heard some of their background as church girls, right. But as she has grown, she's obviously taking various terms and the way that she sees, the way she sees herself in the world. However, the language has not left her so how do you see? Her utilizing the language, spiritual language, soulish language in her music beautiful, beautiful question.
Speaker 2:I actually let's get into church girl, because Beyonce, she was wilding on church girl, I ain't gonna lie, she was wilding on church girl. So but I think to your broader point. I think that last point you made was what's key, right? Beyonce grew up in the church, very connected to the church she's still connected with, like the per pastor from her home church still gives to that church. So to your point, the language, the culture and the traditions have not left her, even though she as a human being and as a person has grown and matured and evolved and it's still and it's not that same person anymore, but she's still, in her true of heart, a church girl, as she would say.
Speaker 2:Right, but in her own sort of way, though, and I think it's said that Beyonce was saying that she definitely believes in God, she believes in a higher power, and because she does believe in God, she feels like she has this full sanction to make these moral claims in her music. You won't break my soul, right, I can be like. No one can judge me because I was born free the dose of theological claims that she feels very comfortable making because she has been connected to theological doctrines that she had growing up in the church. So I think that's a very important point.
Speaker 2:Now the church girl church girl, church girl church girl. Now obviously we two dudes talking about Two dudes, two dudes, we two of them. We two of them talking about Beyonce, and I think Beyonce's music largely is aimed at black women, black queer women, black trans women, right, so we like and not to say that black men can enjoy Beyonce, but I think Beyonce definitely is talking to a particular demographic when she- she knows her target audience Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, exactly, even though some of her music can transcend gender and transcend race, because your boy do love and can have some love on top. But church girl is interesting because Beyonce is talking to church women that go to church but might not feel at home at church, right, and just some of the lyrics that I found interesting about church girl and we'll Because one thing the music starts out kind of light but, boy, when that beat drop, when that beat drop, the church girl starts dropping too.
Speaker 1:Let's just say that-. Well, the music in the beginning. The music in the beginning is a sample of the Clark sisters. And that's something she essentially uses a gospel song to set up church girl, and when the beat drop it shifts the atmosphere. Let's just put it that way.
Speaker 2:Another interesting thing to try is that on the album Renaissance guess what track church girl is, guess what number track it is.
Speaker 1:Oh, let's see, is it number seven? Number seven. Oh, you gotta be kidding me. Oh yeah, touch your neighbors.
Speaker 2:They said seven means complete, complete. But y'all say ain't playing with time, man, she ain't playing with time. Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, it's really good. So, church girls acting loose, bad girls acting snotty, let it go, girl, let it let it out. Girl, trick that, trick your butt. Like it came up from the south I said now drop it like a fight, drop it like a fight. A bad girl acting naughty Church girl don't hurt nobody. And she keeps going. There's more she said, but I be able to say it. Can I take it further? Can I take it further? Can I take it further?
Speaker 1:How much further we going go Beyonce.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, my goodness, my goodness. But one of the things she said, one of the things she says also, is I'm just trying to make it to church the next morning, so I'm doing the best that I can.
Speaker 2:So it's this idea I think it's two things going on here in this song with church girl.
Speaker 2:It's this idea that in the church and this is something that I would completely admit right this song is obviously about body positivity. It's about expressing your sexuality in a very free and healthy way. It's just about being free in your body and free in your mind. In many ways and for a lot of because the church is so conservative and has been so conservative in many ways, especially when it comes to talking about sex, when it comes to talking about purity culture, when it comes to talking about just relationships and how we're called to relate to someone that we might be attracted to, when it comes to talking about our bodies and how we're allowed to dress our bodies and move our bodies. In many ways, women historically have felt constrained right In all of those ways, and Beyonce is speaking to those women and she knows that because these women feel constrained in the church because of all these things, what they would do was go to the club right, they would go to the club to feel free, to feel like they can let their hair down if you will.
Speaker 2:And, given this reality, something that I was charged by with this song, with church girl as a pastor, is how can women feel free in the church and not feel like they have to go somewhere else to be free? And I feel like they have to go somewhere else to be affirmed right? And this is a very complicated question because, like I said, we're pastors, we're men, we're like, we definitely believe in the Bible authoritatively.
Speaker 2:So there are certain things that we're not gonna, that we do draw a line on, but at the same time, right. There is a way in which we can affirm the desires and affirm the particular ways in which we are called to express ourselves, our body and our sexuality, in a sacred way that honors God, and at the same time, we feel like we also free in ourselves. Right, but free through the lens of the gospel, through the lens of the Bible, and not free through the lens of Beyonce.
Speaker 1:There you go, there it is.
Speaker 2:Beyonce. So that tension and that dynamic is something that we as pastors and we as churches have to explore and engage, Because I think what tends to happen is, I mean, and we know this sometimes they'll go to the club on Saturday and they just won't go to church on Sunday at all. Right, and that's the last thing that we want. We want people to come to church and feel like they can be their full selves and their authentic selves as expressed through the gospels and through God. So this song really had me thinking. I don't have any sort of conclusions yet, but Beyonce really did push a brother on this one. She pushed me a little bit on this one, I ain't gonna lie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I love the part that you just that the point you just made in reference to people going to the club and I will say this I had a conversation this was probably 10 years ago with a choir member. You know those that know me well know that even though I'm a pastor now, I used to be a minister of music. I am a musician and that is my. That's how I got involved in Christian ministry and at some point it was just like, okay, lord, I know I've been hearing you for a long time, let me make this next step. You know, but when I had a conversation with one of our choir members, she said to me she's going with the Lord at this stage.
Speaker 1:She passed maybe six years ago. She was very honest and open. She was that sort of person that, yeah, we used to be at the club Saturday night, you know, while, and whatever else, and we was in that choir stand come Sunday morning. She could show that same too. And it was so interesting to hear that narrative from someone her age, you know, given that she was in her 70s saying that it had that level of vulnerability. And it would probably no question why I gravitated towards her because she was so real and she was so authentic and she didn't mind being vulnerable.
Speaker 1:You know, in that way and I think there's something tremendously missing in some of our congregations that there's such a shallow lens in terms of how we view the Christian life and how we even look at spiritual growth, in which we don't allow people to show up. You know what I mean. We don't allow people to be honest about where they are. We shun them on the surface level for going to the club or, you know, for having a drink or for smoking or whatever else. And we I mean episode one we talked at length about coping mechanisms, but one thing I love about this podcast is that every episode feels like we're building. You know what?
Speaker 1:I mean and we can't say everything in every episode, but we're building and I think that when we think about Church Girl and put that into conversation with the episode about Shaqarie Weed in Heaven, that there's a connection there, because the song starts out talking about, you know, her friends that have been crying and talks about heartbreak and whatever else. So she gives the context for all of the lude lyrics and the response to the issues of life. But we cannot forget the context of what she's saying is and are the issues of life. So the response of the church in light of this, the biblical response to this, has to be informed by the depth of just the human condition you know and the reality. As much as we would like to pretend, you know and I'm put heavy emphasis on the word pretend that we have it all going on, we don't have it all going on. Newsflash.
Speaker 1:People of God, people that love God, people who have been elected by God, people who are going to heaven, do not have it all going on.
Speaker 1:And the reason why Jesus came is so that we can be able to redeem the time and take our brokenness and allow God to work on us, so that we are progressively becoming who God wants us to be and that one day we will be glorified. One day he will wipe every tear from the eyes, will be and will be in perfect communion with God and there will be no more questions about our standing with God or the fact that we have our flesh removed from us. We will live perfectly in that space. But until then, we are going through a pilgrim's passage, you know, and all of us are dealing with hurt. All of us are dealing with pain, and it's okay to admit this. It's okay to be able to say that I am coping in some ways. I think that we're more effective as pastors. Churches are more effective as churches. Lay members are more effective as lay members. When we stop acting, shocked by the fact that there are hurt people, you know who are doing things out of their hurt.
Speaker 1:Now, the issue here, though issue I have with Beyonce's lyric, is something that you've already brought up and mentioned. You know. She says nobody can judge me but me. I was born free. Now, what the church has to do, and what we have been doing prayerfully, is to define freedom, as you said it's not.
Speaker 1:Beyonce's version of freedom. You know, our job is to employ true freedom, authentic freedom. We understand that freedom is not anarchy. You know freedom is not doing anything in any moment just because you can't, because, truly, if you think about that critically, you know if I'm doing any and everything based off of the moment, based off of the environment, based off of what has happened to me, Am I truly free or is my environment free? You know what I mean. Am I imposing on my environment or is my environment imposing on me?
Speaker 1:All of my actions are defensively responding to the circumstances of life, and life is dictating that. That cannot be true freedom. True freedom says that regardless of what is going on in the world, regardless of what's going on in my life, regardless of what circumstances I find myself in, I know who I am and I am unchanged by those circumstances. So when we talk about you know I was born free the first thing that jumps in my mind is song 51. You know that ain't what David said. Man at the God's own heart, you know what I mean. Man who went through a lot, man who did a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1:You know through impulse, through greed, through evil. You know in his heart even. He didn't say I was born free. He said I was born in sin, my.
Speaker 2:God, my God. That's what he said I was born in sin I was.
Speaker 1:I was shaped in iniquity in my mother's womb. That's what he's been in.
Speaker 1:And I think that that sense of that hermiteology, you know the study of sin, you know that having a solid foundation, biblical literacy around that truly helps us to engage these sorts of issues. When we think about sin and how we are to respond to sin. When we think about that, how do we frame freedom within all of that? Is freedom the embrace of sin, meaning that freedom meaning we do anything and everything regardless of whether or not it lives up to our being founded as children of God, shaped in his likeness and image? Or is freedom the capacity to be able to say I just dealt with all the stuff with my job, or you won't break my soul, or I just dealt with all this heartbreak in church, girl, and despite of all of that, I am not compelled to have sex with anyone that I see fitting. You know I am not compelled. You know so and I'm careful about this because I am not the sword of pastor or Christian who is merely speaking against sin and talking against things for the sake of saying it's wrong.
Speaker 1:To me, there always has to be an avenue to demonstrate what is right and what is actually feeding us. The faith is not about what you don't do. The faith is about what you do and your fellowship and relationship with Christ. That is what's being positive versus these other things. Not saying that we shouldn't deal with just because we shouldn't deal with.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely not. I think where I embrace Beyonce's critique of the church in Church of Grove is that our posture toward anyone who comes into our doors to never be shamed. Right, Because, like to your point, we're all sinners, All of us have fallen short. Right Now, conviction is very different than shame. Now, if you're sitting in a choir stand, you just came from the club last night, right, and the pastor, him or her, or the preacher, him or her, is preaching, and you feel convicted about something in your soul and the spirit is working on you. Right, God is not trying to shame you into hell. God is actually trying to transform your heart into who he has called you to, be right, so that you can live into the trueness and the authenticity of his joy, of his peace and, just, of the true power of his spirit. Right, as you were talking, I reminded of Jesus talking to the woman at the well. Right, yeah, I'm for it.
Speaker 2:I truly think that this is like Jesus was talking to a church girl. He was talking to a church girl, right, Truly, like Jesus called her out on her sinful past. Right, she's coming to the well. She's been outcasted by her community, by her society. Right, she's coming to the well to get some water. She meets Jesus. She meets the same Jesus is like hey, can I get you some water? And she's like yo, as you can see, I'm already, I'm here, I'm about to get my own water, but I'm good, I'm good bro. And he still asks can I get you some water? And she's like I don't think you understand how this works. I'm here at the well to get some water. She said no, no, no, no, no, no. I wanna give you something that's a little different. I wanna give you some living water, right and right there.
Speaker 2:Jesus already is talking about something that's deeper than the physical right. You've tried it the physical way. You've tried it by doing it your way in the world, right. But I've come here to offer you a different way, a way that will lead to true fullness, true joy, true peace, true salvation. Right, If you do it my way. Not just any water I'm trying to give you. I'm trying to give you living water. I know you a sinner, I know you've messed up, but I'm not here to shame you to hell. I'm here to offer you new life. I'm here to offer you a new way, right, and that's the way of Christ right and the church has gotten like.
Speaker 2:We have not done this the Jesus way. We've shamed church girls for so many of, for so much of our history We've shamed church girls. Jesus, in this very example, never shamed her, Never did he do that. He offered her the true and authentic way to live life and she was convicted. She was deeply convicted. But what did she do, Tripline? She took that conviction and said oh my God, he's told me about my past.
Speaker 2:This man here is different. You know what? I gotta go tell somebody about this dude. He offered me eternal life. Let me go out to the club, Let me go out to my job and tell everybody I know about a man named Jesus. Come see about a man. Come see about a man who can make you whole. You think there's a club with this music, with these hookups can make you whole. I just met somebody. I just met somebody who knew everything about my past, who offered me a new life, right, and now I can experience a fullness of what I've been seeking in the club the entire time. Come see about a man. So you're right. She went right back to the club, right, Right back to it and said y'all gotta come see this dude named Jesus, right?
Speaker 2:So that has to be the way. And, oddly enough, in church girl, right? I think, instead of us as pastors and Christians and preachers, instead of us looking at the song and being like it's unholy, it's heretical, it ain't true, christian, really look at that song and allow it to actually push you toward the Jesus that met a woman at the well. Right, because I think that, implicitly, that's what Beyonce is trying to get us to do. Stop shame in church girls y'all. Stop making them feel like they are less than because they're struggling or because they have these desires. Well, whatever, it means. Stop doing it and do it the Jesus way.
Speaker 2:I think that's what she's trying to push us toward, right, and as preachers and pastors, we can take up that mountain, take up that baton and actually follow up and fulfill that promise in many ways. So I think that that's what we have to embrace. That's the richness of embracing the culture and embracing someone like a. Beyonce is saying yo, as a pastor, as a Christian, as a preacher. I can look at those lyrics and be like, oh, I see what you're saying, I see what you're doing, I hear you, I feel you. And now let me take it upon myself to do what I, to really take up what you're saying, but in a biblical and Christian way. I think it's what we're called to do.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man. And you said it do it the Jesus way. That's a word, right, I'm gonna steal that one.
Speaker 2:All right, I'm gonna steal it, all right.
Speaker 1:Do it the Jesus way, backing you up. I feel that you said something profound bringing John Ford. I did not think about John Ford in this particular song. I think that this is profound because when we think about the duality of identity that's seen in this song, we see that we're gonna be in church on Sunday but we dropping it like a Fadi. So we dropping it on Saturday night but we gonna pick it up on Sunday, all right you know the duality, the biblical language.
Speaker 1:We would call that lukewarm. You know, you had ankles right, I'll spoo you from my mouth right. So when we think about this, I think that John Ford is a perfect example of that because, even though she was a Samaritan woman, samaritans and Jews were very related theologically because Samaritans were people that came out of the Israelites and they intermingled with others, but their Bible looked very similar to the Torah, you know.
Speaker 1:And so that's why, when Jesus approached her, she said something to the effect of, and I'm paraphrasing our fathers worshiped on this mountain. So this is the same woman. You know, when he starts talking about her stuff and her business, he wasn't afraid of her business or her stuff.
Speaker 1:When he starts talking about that she turns the conversation to a theological lens, talking about our fathers have worshiped on this mountain, but Jerusalem is the place that we all worship.
Speaker 1:And then Jesus says to her you know, they that worship me will worship his spirit and the truth.
Speaker 1:It's not about a particular place, but it's about our connection to God through the human spirit, and this instance of Numa is about the human spirit, and I think that bringing that out of that chapter is so powerful because it gives our church girls and church boys permission to be honest about where they are, to be honest about how they are handling life, to be honest about how they are coping and just as that woman perhaps was going from brother to brother, or perhaps she was doing various things, there's a lot of conversation about her profile as well as theology, and that can be very nuanced as well. Regardless of all of that, there's a common thread for all of us to say that, regardless of how you have handled life, Jesus is offering something better. And rather than and I know some pastors, you know they blew a fuse last year with this all came out and I get it, Trust me, I get it, you know, before being, you know, an assistant or interim pastor. Before any of that, I was a youth pastor, and even in the secular world.
Speaker 1:I care for young people as a choral conductor, and so I love children, I love youth, and my life is devoted to steering them in the right direction. So I absolutely get why. You know, a version of body positivity that is not grounded in the fact that our bodies are God's temple can be problematic. And of course, sex positivity the idea that all sex is good sex if it's good to you obviously is not grounded in God's word. The Bible is not anti-sex. You know. The Bible is not against it at all. It was actually constructed for a particular purpose and God allowed it. It's sacred right, so we can be honest about this.
Speaker 1:Have open and real vulnerable conversations about this that are fruitful, just as Jesus did with the woman at that. Well, and then she became as far as I'm concerned, an evangelist. She went back to Shazakar her hometown and she said as you said, you about to tune up for a second, bro. I thought you about to say. I thought you about to say I'm. Yeah, let me tell you about a man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, come see about him back. Come see about a man, come see about him.
Speaker 1:For a second. I saw the look of where is my organ when I ate it. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I'm good, I'm from Zion.
Speaker 1:I love it, bro, Everything that you said.
Speaker 1:I love it because we're very quick to do the obvious. And the obvious is oh, this song can steer girls in the wrong way. This song and I get that and I agree that without proper context, if someone does not truly understand what it means to be a church girl in the way in which people from the church understand it, as someone who has devoted their lives to Christ and to ministry and not divorced from joy or happiness, but has a deeper sense of what that is through their faith, if someone does not have that context, then, yes, they can listen to that song and think that, you know, being a church girl is being, you know, in a club on Saturday night and in a church on Sunday. But it's our job, you know, as churches, as pastors, as parents, as leaders, to rear up our young people so that they might understand what true freedom is.
Speaker 1:And Beyonce, she's being an artist and now someone's saying that this is, you know. You know the worst of the worst is demonic. It's, you know, and I feel like, artistically, because I'm a creative, you know I'm able to enter into this, you know, with a more, more of an objective mentality, yeah, and also understanding that the world is gonna be the world, you know, despite the fact that this is child used to sing. Now behold the lamb and stuff. Don't change the fact. You know that the world. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:And the world gonna do what the world gonna do, but it's our job to make sure that Beyonce song is not the only refuge. That church there you go there you go.
Speaker 2:You know, I think that we would just do ourselves a lot of justice by paying attention to what artists are saying. Copy the artist have always had this unique ability of having their thumb on culture in ways that that that we just made miss because, like I said bro, you, you won't break my soul. Beyonce had her thumb on something in the culture a year before it happened. This, this summer, has been a summer of strikes, of union, of unionizing.
Speaker 2:Yes, you're talking about that a year ago. You know, I said, like artists have a way of just Reflecting what they're, what people are feeling in the culture. That is useful to preachers and pastors and church leaders. Right, and it's to your point. Right, listening to them obviously disagreeing with what we need to disagree Not, you know, obviously particularly we need to critique but listening to them saying what are they actually saying? What is the message? Right, like, what are they saying about how people are feeling? Right, like how people are really feeling.
Speaker 2:Because when you look through this song that Beyonce singing, right, I guarantee you that so many women in the church feel this way. Right, that's just a reality, that's a real right. So the question becomes the question has become for us if women are feeling this way, how can we meet them and have helpful and healthy dialogue and conversations with them about their spiritual life? Right, because the last thing we want them to do is to feel chastised, outcasted and shamed over things that they're struggling with or there's things that they're feeling right. So that's where I think that we really have to pay attention to what artists are saying. Right, because artists, just like I think I think it Really is spiritual and godly, right from from gospel music to secular music, right, artists just have this unique ability to, to interpret the culture in very unique ways to where we just took, to where, to where they just have their thumb on Something that we're all missing, that what their eyes aren't open to. Yet you know I'm saying so.
Speaker 2:I think that that's where we really have to be Thoughtful with how we engage, and we're like yo, I'm gonna do it, everything you saying, but let me listen, because you're probably you're probably articulating something, and your music and your writing that someone is feeling in my congregation and my job that I need to be paying attention to so that I can thoughtfully Engage with it as a Christian and respond to it through a biblical and Christian lens.
Speaker 1:So dope, so so dope, and you know, you know, past the J, what you just said. That's what this ministry is.
Speaker 1:That's what very audacious is. That's what we're hoping to accomplish in this space, which is taking those very things people in the culture. They both are interpreting where the culture is and they're also leading it. So in that way, you have to, we have to pay attention, you know, to what's actually taking place in the culture, because this is what people are showing up to the church. With. This perspective and and and if you're not paying attention to the culture, you will always be five and ten years behind understanding what people need today, and I'm very excited that we have this space.
Speaker 1:I said it earlier and I'm gonna say it again we cannot talk about everything, as it pertains to all the elements in these particular issues, but we are building Episode by episode, and I hope that you will share people listening, share this Experience with everyone that you know. Take this YouTube video, even if you listen to Apple podcast. Take this video on YouTube and share it on your Facebook page, because people can see the people that are discussing it as well as feel the empathy that we have, as well as the concern that we have for ourselves and everyone else that are Tuning in. Thank you so much for being here, jay. I'll let you close this out however you see fit, and I'm so grateful that we had an opportunity to have this discussion.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Hey, man, I want to say is hopefully we didn't upset any of the beehive. The beehive, you know, I'm saying we love Beyonce, we like her music, we know, no, we love her music. Hey, you know, don't, don't, don't cancel us yet. We really trying to get the episode 50, let us get episode 50. But I'm grateful Beyonce, her witness, her, her artistry. I think it just opens up so for so much great conversation. Yeah, man, you really something up. Faith, give a given language to the culture through faith is what we were all about here. And yeah, man, had a good time once again and I can't wait to see y'all again next week.
Speaker 1:Let's get it next week, let's do it.
Speaker 2:Peace out, bro, talk to you later, man you.