Very Audacious
An audacious podcast that dares to interpret faith through culture. Embrace your audacity.
Very Audacious
Which Israel?
Sean Tripline and Jalen Baker discuss pumpkin spice, the recent Hamas attack, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a Christian response to tribalism, and how we can enter this space more willing to resist the obvious binary.
Welcome to Very Audacious, the podcast where we audaciously delve into faith, culture and everything in between. I'm your host, sean Tripline, and we're now holding back, so buckle up for this audacious ride. If you're as daring as we are, don't forget to like, share and subscribe. What's up? Vafams? Good to see everybody in the room today. We are a day behind today with the podcast. We are so sorry for those that checked in on Thursday. It's been a crazy week and, jay, I'm gonna let you tell your story too as well, brother. Good to see you, man. How you feeling?
Speaker 2:Feeling better. Man, I'm sick y'all. I'm finally over this virus. I had some virus. It wasn't COVID. I tested for that joint and the test said this test came back negative. So it wasn't that. But I'm healthy again. I'm alive and I'm well. I feel like I've been resurrected from the dead. I really do that's what's up, man?
Speaker 1:I'm glad you're well man.
Speaker 2:Being sick ain't no fun, man. It really ain't no fun, no it ain't no fun.
Speaker 1:It ain't no fun.
Speaker 2:The most sorry cowboys made me sick last week too, but we ain't gotta talk about that.
Speaker 1:No, we ain't gotta talk about no football. No, we don't have to do that. Okay, I mean, you know as much as I love football right now we ain't gotta talk about no football because I ain't got nothing to talk about.
Speaker 2:That's a lot going on in the world and football is probably low on the list.
Speaker 1:Football is only low on the list when it's not appropriately distracting me from what's going on in the world. All right, and when my team is losing. When my team is losing, you know what? I don't even look at it as being out. I get so much done. When my team loses, you know, I have no distractions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, only football. That can distract me right now is Madden.
Speaker 1:Madden, speaking of distractions, I have to make a confession, because we had a conversation a few weeks ago and I kind of called you out on the carpet. You know about this one particular issue pertaining pumpkin spice and you know, yeah, yeah, I didn't share this with you, brother, but I called myself embracing my audacity and trying a pumpkin spice product because I remember what you said about pumpkin spice and I got to say I must say, wendy's, they sell a pumpkin spice and these frosty, listen, listen, I'm not a Wendy stand, but, wendy's, they sell a pumpkin spice frosty. And when I tell you that thing, bless my soul, all right, wendy's, huh, wendy's, bro, wendy's, I was blown away. And if you, if you've ever tried the, I'm sure you tried the regular frosting, but if you've ever tried the strawberry frosty, that thing was nasty.
Speaker 2:It's terrible. I'm just talking about that chocolate with the frosty life, bro, it's gotta be chocolate or bust.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know I won't say chocolate or bust, but yes, 75% of the time I'm getting a chocolate, you know. 20% of the time, you know, maybe I go for a mix of chocolate and vanilla.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that ain't bad. That ain't bad. But, bro, that pumpkin spice pumpkin spice. I love the first experience you had with pumpkin spice was literally this cheap, manufactured version of it from a fast food chain.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you actually liked it, and you actually liked it.
Speaker 2:That's what it makes you feel. So I feel like I feel very confident saying if you like Wendy's pumpkin spice frosty, then you like pumpkin spice. That's just reality, cause, that's cause, bro. I promise you it get better than that.
Speaker 1:So you're probably right, and I've never considered myself someone anti pumpkin spice. I've never. I just, I just I just never bought into the hype behind it and I think I really backed down from the conversation when it became pumpkin pie versus sweet potato pie, because that's back down.
Speaker 2:From that too, I'm back. Yeah, I don't want to lie now, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah Me too, me too, yeah so, but you know, these are, these are the everyday battles that we fight. You know, I'm glad that you're here.
Speaker 2:I'm glad that you, that you, have been blessed in this season. I choose.
Speaker 1:I'm blessed. I'm blessed.
Speaker 2:I'm blessed.
Speaker 1:And we and we need a moment of levity right now because, you know, today we are delving into a topic. You know that a lot of people have been talking about those who are news junkies. You know, watching CNN, msnbc, fox, whatever you watch, facebook, twitter, wherever you get your news from we all know that there is a very major crisis taking place in the nation of Israel, that they were recently attacked by Hamas and Jay. I'm going to let you talk a little bit about that, what's taking place, and you know, when we come back, we can kind of open this up and and and delve into the narrative that we see people engaging in.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, I mean. So, yeah, I've definitely heard and heard the news that Israel was basically attacked this last weekend and it's just been. It's been, it's been a rough time. Hamas is a terrorist group. That does not, it does, that does not represent all Palestinian people. It's a terrorist group. That was that for I believe in, by 1987. And, yeah, I mean they.
Speaker 2:They're just very unadulterated in their views about Israel. They want to wipe Israel off the face of the map, which is, which is a very radical and bold claim that obviously is sort of represents sort of a radical wing of sort of Israeli of the Israeli Palestinian conflict, politically right and again, they don't represent all Palestinian views, but they do have a huge, they do have a huge voice in this conflict. They have a huge role in this conflict. They are not in any way a small group. They are a group that does have, that does sort of wage a lot of political influence in Palestine. In fact, they were actually elected to, to, to, to, to Palestinian, to to rule Palestine democratically, which is also, which is also very messy, complex and nuanced, because, again, hamas is this, this radical terrorist group that does believe in violent action and violent means. So, when they're up for an election, right? I could imagine if you're a Palestinian person in that, in that context, you probably were provoked by fear to vote them into power, right, because you know, if someone finds out that you didn't vote for them, or if you're like, if you're afraid of what could happen to you if you didn't vote for them, you know something could happen because this, this, is a group that believes in violence, right, so that, so I think that's also so. So I don't think it's as simple as the Palestinian people voting for this group to be in power. I think it's way more nuanced in that in many ways. But but they are in power, though, and they, they were elected to be in power and, given that that is the case, they have been planning for a little while now.
Speaker 2:You know, this attack, attack, this attack that has killed over 700 people, this attack that has just really thrown is the country of Israel into just a state of emergency, and this attack that has basically waged a war between the two territories, right, and Israel has has has respond. Another thing Hamas has also taken Israeli people, and Americans as well, hostage right. So they, they have hostages right that could. They don't know how many hostages? I think the the guesstimation is could be it could be in the hundreds, but they are taking Israeli people and Americans hostage so that they can sort of be used as negotiating tools in this war, in this conflict, right, which is, yeah, so that was a strategic move by them. So there are people in hostage and you know, obviously, all we can do is and hope and pray that they're still alive and that they that they survive this entire thing.
Speaker 2:And right now Israel is is is waging responses. They're waging. They're waging sort of a counter attack. Right, they have cut off all water and power in the Gaza, and what's interesting about that is, again, so Hamas, again, it's a radical terrorist group, but all Palestinians are not sort of under the help the Hamas Political ideology. So you have innocent Palestinians, basically, who now don't, who don't have access to water and power right now. Who's just who essentially been caught up in this war?
Speaker 2:I think that's that's one of the sadder things about war is that there are so many innocent Bystanders, right, even in Israel, israel, right, like they're now, like they are a country in war, obviously they were attacked, so people died because it is, and now, in the aftermath of that. Israel is now living in In a place where they could be. They are living under the guise of attack every single day, right? They don't know if Hamas could attack them, they don't know if a bomb can fall over them and obviously that's just a terrible way to live. So there are innocent bystanders on both sides that are now caught up in this very Tense political conflict that has been going on for for decades, for decades now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, trip, I know that we both are gonna come over here and say obviously we don't condone Hamas. Obviously we are. We stand against any terrorist attack. I would see, you know we're gonna say that Israel was a victim here of a terrorist attack and that no one should have to endure that it. No one should have to endure that.
Speaker 2:And yeah, we're gonna get into the sort of the history and the complexity and nuances of this conflict for the for the remainder of this conversation, but as a starting point At least, in where the war stands now you know Israel was a victim here. Israel, israel was was attacked by a terrorist group and Innocent people that there are people just at a music festival, just, you know, having a good time, whatever and In a blink of an eye they were bombed right and no one deserves that. No one. No one deserves to sort of be a victim of that. So it's a sad state of affairs right now in the conflict and in those territories and and, yeah, our hearts and prayers goes out to both, but to both powers, to both innocent Palestinians and also innocent Israelis who are not wrapped up in this conflict anymore now.
Speaker 1:Amen. That was a wonderful way to kind of summarize, like everything has taken place right now in this narrative. J, thank you so much for that, brother, and I really believe that, just as you unpack that, it's really important for us to think as human beings. You know, not just think politically. Is there's a temptation to think that? You know, especially for those of us who are listening from the American context, is the almost like we sit at this higher level and we're looking down at what's happening in other parts of the world. The reality is that there's violence all across our globe. There are violence not just in Israel, not just in Ukraine, not just in Africa, but across the globe, and truly our stance, as it pertains the violence across the board, is so key For our witness being to show that we are truly the peacemakers that God has called us to be. Now, what Jay has opened up for us is the fact that yes and he's he speaks for me in this regard that there is nothing that could justify the killing of innocent people, going to a music festival, going to the grocery store, living life on the day to day, that that that that could be justified in any way. There's no way that that could be justified. And then also, I think that this is one of the most nuanced Political accounts that one can, one could delve into in this time, in the last 50 years, you know, because there is history that has built to this moment. I would say that anyone who looks at Hamas and sees this as an isolated incident Would certainly be mistaken. Right, if you look at this and see this as a one-off, you'd be wrong. You know, this is part of a larger narrative, from a war that we've seen started in in 1948, you know, and this, this war, has evolved and we, even in American history, we could talk about times of active war. We could talk about times of cold war, where there's a war going on. It may not be physical, and when we look at Israel, there's been a lot of physical battle in the last 50 or 50, 70 years and in different eras of their history, but truly they're all connected and and they're all connected to the fact that there are people that that whether and there's a conversation, we're going to talk a little bit about all this, you just a little bit about everything, to kind of wet our appetite. If we need to come back to this in the future we will, because I don't think this issue is going to go anywhere, but in terms of thinking about all of the components of that history, you've got.
Speaker 1:You know the late 1800s, early 20th century, the Zionist movement Jews across the globe were facing persecution In in the about 1918. I believe great Britain comes out with support to say that, yes, we believe that this movement of of Jews, the Zionist movement, that these people deserve to have a land to which they could call home. And, of course, we know that the location that that people started immigrating to was Israel. Palestine Is is the probably appropriate name in this time. Palestine is where they immigrated to and, of course, there were Palestinians that have been in that space and been there for centuries. There have been many Dispersions of Jews throughout the globe throughout the history of civilization, since the times of the biblical scripture, and when we see them coming back to this place, this has created this Conflict, where we have Palestinians that have been there for centuries and then you have of Israelis coming a, jews coming back to that space and reclaiming that space, and the tensions have been non-stop. You know so much so that in the 1940s, after the Holocaust, which, of course, millions of Jews perished and one of the most terrifying Showing is a human depravity and all of the history of our, of our human race.
Speaker 1:After this time, of course, there was plenty of political capital to make sure that this designated space would be instituted. And, of course, the wars ensued because Britain wanted a two, a two-state system in place and wanted to create a space for for Jewish immigrants coming back to Palestine as well as for Palestinians that had been in that location for centuries. And at that time there was not a lot of support for a two-state system Amongst the Arab nations. They felt as though this was a version of European colonialism. They weren't for it. And a war ensued In 1948 in Israel one All right. Well, we understand now as Israel. They won that war. They, believe it or not, were actually more open to that two-state system Back in that time. But when it was rejected, a war ensued and what we now understand as the nation of israel one. And now we have this, this circumstance, where you have an established nation. You've got the Palestinian people who have been placed, you know, almost in an isolation, in in many ways actually isolation, where there are walls that have been built, their Checkpoints, where those people cannot move about the way that others can and truly has created a space where it's been very difficult to see the the light at the end of the tunnel, as these two ethnic peoples have fought for so long now.
Speaker 1:Jay, have you? Have you been observing various narratives? I know there are a few that I want to talk about, but have you been observing various conversations? Where are, where are people today in terms of Thinking through the issue of how do we pick a side? You know how do we think about you know the Israeli people. How do we think about the Palestinian people? You know where? Where should we, as Christians, begin to process how we approach this conflict?
Speaker 2:What a question. What a question. Yeah, I think we're gonna unpack that question for the rest of the conversation. So I want to take a step back here and I know that when I do this people are gonna be like you should just be concerned with what's going on right now. What's going on right now, what's going on right now. But I think it's important for us to take a step back. So you just gave us that wonderful, wonderfully articulated historical context of why we are basically where we are now, and I kind of want to also sort of give give a little insight into what Palestine faces every single day under military occupation of Israel, right?
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so Israel Militarily occupies, sort of the Palestinian people got West Gaza, right, like 60% of that territory is under military occupation, and Israel will say, right, that the reason why we feel like we have to do this, we have to sort of occupy this territory, is for our own sort of national security, right, because, like you say, hamas, this is not a one-off event and we think about this conflict. It has, it has sort of it has been very, it has been very violent at times. So Israel, so from Israel's perspective, they say we have to protect ourselves from conflict, from death, from bombs, as we can sort of see from this weekend. So therefore, our only solution to this is to militarily occupy power the Palestinian people. And While that may make sense from a logical perspective from the Israeli side, I just want to give a little insight into what that actually looks like for Palestinian people.
Speaker 2:Right, so because, because that territory is occupied by Israel, in many Palestinian, in many Palestinian areas, access to clean and safe drinking water is limited. So the construction of Israeli settlements Often diverge water resources away from Palestine communities in the infrastructure for water and sanitation services Can also be damaged during military operations, leading to water shortages and contaminated water supplies. So to think about that for a minute right, so, because of this occupation, palestinian people don't have access to safe drinking water. Right, that's their everyday reality. Right, and the list in the list sort of goes on. Right, electricity power things, and our territory often experiences electricity shortages and freaking power outages. Right, because of this, they don't have access to health care Because of movement restrictions, so they can't move very easily, which mean they don't have access to Hospitals, don't have access to that offices, because they may struggle to reach medical facilities due to checkpoints and roadblocks. So these are just a couple of examples of how Palestinian people in their own territory, in their own home, cannot move freely.
Speaker 2:Right, they are truly, it's somewhat safe living in an open-air prison. They're there, they're literally living in a prison, right, and their everyday lives are impacted by this military occupation from Israel. Now that leads to the question of what does peace talks look like? Right, because obviously, you know, as human beings, none of us want, you know, people to live under these harsh conditions. It's especially people who do not want to see Israel wiped off the face of the map. Right, there are millions of Palestinian people who don't want to see Israel wiped off Now, hamas does, for sure, but there are millions of Palestinian people who don't want to see that. They just want to be able to live in a safe, free way where they have access to clean water, access to electricity, right, access to quality health care.
Speaker 2:Right, he says these are what we call in America, like, or in globally, basic human rights, right, so I think, for me as a Christian, what I think about. So I think about this in two ways. Right, I think about this in a from a scent, in a sinful way, and I also think about this sort of you mentioned this earlier, blessed are the peacemakers like how Jesus would approach this. So, from a sinful perspective, right, and this is gonna be a very odd day. Our day says take. So when you're talking about sinful people who are being militarily occupied every single day, they don't have access to basic human resources that they need to survive. So when you have been pushed against the wall, your back is against the wall and you literally cannot see a way out of it. At some point as a human being, when someone has you pushed against the wall, you're going to fight back. Right, you're gonna be like get your hands off of me, like get off of me, quite literally. Right, like you need to take a step back and let me live. Right, and because we're sinners and because we have this sinful nature to just to go against Just the very moral laws of God, sometimes we can take that very human instinct and just just multiply by 10 and that's where I think you get a Hamas right.
Speaker 2:Hamas, and on a very human level, is saying get off of us, like stop and and it right. And because we are just sinful creatures, they took that to a terrorist level, which obviously we cannot condone, right, we cannot condone it at all. And Anytime you put up people in that position, right? Um, it's like I can't be surprised that they are saying we have to fight back. We have to fight back now.
Speaker 2:I would say more reasonable Palestinian people are saying okay, the way we wanna fight back is by engaging in peace talks. Right, let's figure out a way. Like you mentioned this earlier, what is a two state solution? What is a democratic solution to this, so that we don't have to be militarily occupied and so that we can have access to these basic human rights? Right, so there's a peaceful way of going about it. But there also is this sinful way. There's this very instinctual, human, sinful way that we are all plagued with and because we live in this sinful world, these things can happen. Right, these things can happen. So, as a Christian, I'm thinking through this like yo. Before we can ever arrive at this place, we gotta engage peace talks in such a way that we have to be willing to give up things, right.
Speaker 2:I think in this conflict, there are times when Israel doesn't wanna give up some stuff, palestinians, arabs, don't wanna give up some stuff. They keep battling over land. It's like no, that's my land. No, that's my land, we deserve more of that land. No, we deserve more of that land. Right, and that's where it's like oh, you know what I'm saying Like they can't get past certain things to reach this solution, which is why we are where we are. So, yeah, I think that everyday experience of the Palestinian people give a little insight into why this war started this last weekend. Right Cause when you push someone against a wall, they're gonna fight back. They're gonna fight back on an instinctual level and sinfully. Sometimes, when people fight back in this way, it can look like a terrorist attack, which is sad. But it also speaks to this sort of this deep human need of what we need to be saved from. We need to be saved from this instinct to terrorize a community rather than create peace, rather than create peace, as Jesus calls us to.
Speaker 1:Hmm, very, very insightful, very insightful. I love, bro, that you brought into this the Palestinian perspective because for me, when I think about this, I try to look at not just this instance, but when I look at scripture and I look at all of the power dynamics that I even see in scripture, I wanna make sure that I am thinking about both sides of the coin and not just one side. As a black person in America, when we think about manifest destiny, when we think about various perspectives and reading of scripture, we can see that if you only look at it from one side, then you approach things from a very imbalanced perspective and you completely bypass the humanity of other people, completely bypass God's justice and will. You can completely bypass so many things, and that's a loaded topic right there. But I'm grateful that you brought the Palestinian perspective into this because, number one, people are talking about it and we can't make that go away and we shouldn't make that go away. And I will say right here, from the forefront of my mentions, my comments here, that I am in relationship and I am doing life with people who are Jews and who care about the state of Israel, and I have friends and people that I consider family, who I absolutely understand the historic marginalization that they have experienced on the global scale and the desire to have again.
Speaker 1:The question of whether or not Palestinians can exist is another question that others will ask. Can Israelis exist? Can Jews exist? And you talked about a human need, and that human need really is so key to this discussion because there's issues on both sides. There's the gravity on both sides. There have been so many assaults against the Amago Day, the humans being made in the image of God. On both sides. There have been victims on both sides and that's what makes this so nuanced and difficult for many people to engage. And I'm just grateful for this platform Number one, because for those that are watching from and we have people that watch this that are not from the United States, but we definitely understand that most of our viewership is tuning in from the US it's so important that we understand the components of both sides.
Speaker 1:You talk about Palestinians not having access to clean water and, in some ways, being isolated in a space where they have to live in less than humane conditions, especially in the modern world, and we opened up this podcast talking about frosties from Wendy's right, like I mean, let's keep this real here. You know, in our context we have the privilege regardless of whether you're black, white, hispanic, asian, whatever if you live in America, you have the privilege of being able to say that from your own resources, of finances or money you could find on the street, you could afford to get a frosty from Wendy's, you could afford to go to a store, at least to buy water. Even if you live in Flint, there are people that will address the issues of water and will bring water to your community because they're, because it's well documented, right, when we think about the Palestinian situation and other places across the world, we need to be touched by the experience of these people. Now let me also say we've talked about Hamas and there may be people who do not know the role that Hamas. You've already began to open up the fact that Hamas is both a militant group and I say that with hesitation, I really wanna say a terrorist group, given what has just recently taken place but they are also a militant group and political party.
Speaker 1:Okay, the Palestinian Liberation Organization was formed many decades ago, in the 60s. They were basically given recognition by the United Nations as being an organization that's focused on establishing liberation for the Palestinian people in light of the Israeli state and how others have been displaced. And then you could see, I believe in the 90s, as it pertains to the Oslo Accords, there was the official establishing of the Palestinian Authority and that was their governmental structure. That is their governmental structure, the Palestinian Authority over the territories that are occupied primarily by Palestinian people. Now, hamas is a political party that does not, as Pastor Jaylin has already stated, hamas does not represent all Palestinians. Hamas represents those who are part of this particular party and terrorist organization that is fighting against the Israeli state and fighting for the cause of the Palestinian people. Now they are doing it in their way.
Speaker 1:Not all Palestinians, as Pastor Jay said, want to fight in this way. There are political ways, there are diplomatic ways. Some of those ways have failed in seasons past, but one of the reasons why those things have failed is there have been extremists on both sides of the aisle. There have been extremist groups pro-Israeli, there have been extremist groups pro-Palestinian, and the one that we are familiar with now is Hamas, and if you're new to this discussion, you know who Hamas, you know what group this is.
Speaker 1:At this stage Now, when people are talking about this, you know, when I look at social media, jay, and I see people engaging. This it's interesting because in some ways, you have this historical approach and then you've got the ahistorical approach and then you've got people trying to do both at the same time. Okay, and one thing that I would want to bring up is there are many that discuss when we hear about the attacks on Israeli people, they say, well, this isn't the Israel of the Bible. You know, this is a statement that I've seen literally at least 30 times on Facebook, people posting not 30 comments, I mean just 30 people that I know posting about whether or not we should care about the Israeli people. The Israeli state, you know, given Israel of 1948, is not the people you know.
Speaker 1:So I want to just open this up because I think number one, let me just state from the beginning regardless of how you're reading history, that does not change our advocating for peace, okay. Regardless of how you see any particular ethnic group, whatever sort of ethnic issues, of ethnic integrity or whatever an individual has, that does not, that should not, as Christians, change our desire to have peace, regardless of how we got here. You know, and I think that that's one thing that I personally feel personally, and then, in addition to this, you know, god is always on the side of the oppressed right, and I would say that God's on the side of individuals on both sides of the line. God's on the side of those families that are mourning those that went to that music festival, and God's on the side of those who have been ostracized and have been put in a situation where they have to live in a militarized experience. Right, god does not sit on one side of the boxing ring in the way that we do. God is caring for all individuals who were made in the image and likeness of God and truly we have to take that sort of motivation and that sort of grounding and centeredness being centered in God's word and God's love so that we can engage the history in a way that's fruitful and meaningful Doesn't truly matter. Now I wanna say this In recent studies on my own part into this question, have shown that Jews across the globe, recent genetic studies that we've been exposed to Jews across the globe, have been shown to have connection to the ancient Israelites that we would consider the Israelites of the Bible.
Speaker 1:Now that includes Ashkenazi Jews, jews that have mainly been in recent centuries in Central, in Eastern Europe. We have the Sephardi Jews that are primarily from Spain and Portugal. You have the Mizrahi Jews that are from the various parts of the Middle East. You have the Ethiopian Jews. So, when studies, scientific and genetic studies from across the globe, in various places, have pointed connections of various individuals to the ancient Israelites, I would hope that that would be enough for people to stop making this conversation about who are the real Jews and who aren't. The reality is that the present Israelites, the present Israeli nation and people group, of course, are not the exact people. None of us are our exact ancestors. I'm a black person, I'm an African descent, but I am not exactly the genetic makeup of the person that got onto the boat and was in drug to North America. Is that really the point? I don't know if that is the starting point that we should have for engaging. What should we do now in terms of bringing this conflict to a close?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great point, and I think, as I was reflecting on what you were saying, I wanna go back to what you were saying about how God is on the inside of the oppressed, and I think what was so beautiful about that and what I hear there, is that God is for human flourishing, for all human beings. Right, this made me think about the scripture, where Jesus says the thief comes to kill, steal and destroy, but I have come so that you may have life and have it more abundantly. And when we think about that, right, jesus is not just talking about this group or that group having life. He wants all people to have life. And I think, when we take that scripture and apply it here, christ wants Palestinians to have life. He also wants Israel to have life. Right, so it's not either or.
Speaker 2:And when we think about conflicts like this, that has to be the perspective of both sides, and I genuinely think that's what's been missing. Right, when you have two groups fighting this way, they're just thinking about how can I have life, how can I have life, how can I have life? Fibrillism, exactly right, but rarely is it ever sort of mentioned in either side. How can I have life and how can you have life? What does that look like for both of us? To coexist and have life together? And I think that's what the gospel outlines for us right. It outlines for us a particular way in which all human beings can flourish.
Speaker 2:Right, and the way the gospel outlines that is to resist sin. And the way we resist sin fundamentally is by denying ourselves, taking up our cross right and following the ways of Jesus right. So fundamentally, it cannot be about my will, my way, what I want, but I have to do this in the way God has laid it out for me. Thy will be done, not my will be done.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think that has to be the Christian perspective when thinking about this right, because it's like, as much as we wanna sympathize with Palestinians and Israelis right in this moment, right, fundamentally, this is gonna be about at some point, hopefully when this war ends, and hopefully the way the war can come to an end honestly is by both sides saying how can we both live? How can we both live right? Right, israel, how can we grant them access to safe and drinking water? Palestinians, how can we create an environment in such a way to where Israel does not feel like we're going to attack them at any given moment and so therefore, they don't have to sort of militarily occupy us anymore, because we've built up this trust within them. You know what I'm saying. So that's where I think the gospel infiltrates all of this, and for me is that God is on the side of human flourishing for all people, and we have to sort of like get into that vein of thinking if we wanna end not only this war, but so many wars that we all battle on a daily basis in many ways.
Speaker 1:That's an amazing point. And that question how can we both live? That is the question that I think that each of us needs to ask, not just in this conversation, but you can apply that to just about every conflict, right? I mean, that's a question that can be applied. When we think about the American narrative, and I would say that it was very easy for us to point and look at this and say, oh, look at these people. And the world has been shocked when we talk about Ukraine, look at Ukraine, look at Russia, and this is tremendous to see two prominent civilizations and countries that are operating and fighting in this way.
Speaker 1:The reality is, it doesn't matter how rich your country is, how poor your country is, it doesn't matter how dark or how light, it doesn't matter any ethnic.
Speaker 1:The question is how can we both live? If you do not ask that question, then you are opening yourself to this issue of tribalism and fighting from a selfish and from an ethnic perspective, just as we've seen in the American context for centuries. So this is not an Israeli and Arab problem alone. This is something that does affect the question of our faith and who we are as Christians. So just thank you for asking it in that way and kind of giving us a way to frame this and engage us Cause when I see people saying which Israel is this, I'm like that's the wrong question. It's not about us picking sides. It's not about us arbitrarily trying to say that one person is Jacob and the other person is Esau. That history is so muddy at this point that trying to create that narrative and picking a side and saying that this is my stance probably is the wrong question altogether, and this is why we're here. The question that we need to have is how can we both live?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I love it, brother. I think, oh, yeah, and I think that's a good place just in the conversation for now, cause there's so much we can continue to talk about, unless you want to bring something else up. But I think, yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I think that the last thing that I want to mention and re-mention here is that when we engage this question of which Israel, is this the Israel of 1948 or is this the Israel of the Bible? I just want to re-mention that genetic studies have brought some of that to a close. Now I'm new. This is new information for me. This is research for this podcast that would suggest that that question of which?
Speaker 1:Is there Israelis in Israel? There are Jewish people in Europe, there are Jewish people in Asia, there are Jewish people in America, y'all let's not approach this from a tribalistic perspective. Let's approach this from the perspective that passage is put before us, that God desires that we have life, and life more abundantly, that that is not limited to Israelis or Palestinians, that we, as the people of God, need to ask the question how can we proliferate life? How can we be pro-life, not just in the ways that are very limiting in their perspective, one issue or another issue. How can we proliferate life in such a way that we are supporting not just the people that look like us, think like us or politically connected to us, but how can we be proliferating life on a day-to-day basis, in our perspectives, in our politics, in our economics, that show that we care for all God's people.
Speaker 2:That's what we need to ask ourselves. There you go, woo, go ahead, pastor Tripline, and that's how you dropped the mic right there. Wonderful, wonderful man.
Speaker 1:Man brother, I hope we come back to this at some point, because there's so much here.
Speaker 2:Maybe we should end it now because there's so much to say, but I think, I think the strength of thought that we went into today gives us a good framework of how to pray for these, for this conflict and this war, right now. It gives us a framework of just how to like go to the Lord and think through these issues and, like you just said, like very appointingly, it gives us a framework of also like how to wage the wars in our daily lives, within our marriages, within our friendships and relationships, right when conflict arises. Like God wants life, he doesn't want death, he doesn't want destruction, he doesn't want further conflict. He wants life, resolution, reconciliation, forgiveness and restoration. And I think the way you ended that is phenomenal, absolutely.
Speaker 1:That's it, brother. Thank you so much, man. For those of you that are here listening to this, you made it to the end. God bless you for being here. Leave us a comment. You can do that on Instagram, you can do that on some of our podcasts platforms and especially YouTube. Make sure you do us a huge favor If this content has been a blessing to you. Make sure that you go on YouTubecom slash very audacious and follow and subscribe that page.
Speaker 1:Leave a comment on this video, like all of the videos, so that the algorithm will know that there's something taking place here, that there's a blessing that God has placed in this space that needs to be heralded to the rest of the world. Thank you all for being here. I look forward to seeing you Give us your feedback. This is such a loaded thing. We know there are going to be people on many sides of this equation, but the point is we are very audacious, and audacious enough to engage this not with all of the answers, but with a piece of God's word that gives us a lens to see the rest of the world. God bless you all and see y'all next week.
Speaker 2:See you next week. Doc, have a good one.