Come To Find Out
Welcome to Come To Find Out- your resource for all things real estate. You can come here to find out about the current market, terms that you see and hear during a transaction, things to do and not to do when you're in contract. The show will also feature interviews with industry partners and leading experts to help you choose who you want on your home buying journey with you. The home buying, selling and investing process can be so overwhelming, so this guide is meant to make it just "whelming."
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Come To Find Out
The Spring Market Solution You Haven't Heard About
Buying a new home while still owning your current one is one of the most stressful financial scenarios homeowners face. This spring market dilemma keeps countless qualified buyers on the sidelines, trapped between the fear of contingent offers being rejected and the burden of potentially carrying two mortgages.
Jodi and Lisa from Ruoff Mortgage join us to reveal a game-changing solution that's helping hesitant homeowners make their move with confidence. The Calc program provides a guaranteed purchase offer on your current home, eliminating contingencies from your new home offer while protecting you from double mortgage payments. Even better, this arrangement doesn't impact your debt-to-income ratio and allows you to tap into your home equity for down payments or improvements.
We explore how Central Ohio's unique real estate market continues to deliver consistent 4-5% annual appreciation, making homeownership a reliable wealth-building strategy despite today's higher interest rates. The conversation also unveils two additional programs that give buyers unexpected advantages: neighborhood-specific interest rate reductions (sometimes on homes valued at $750,000) and a full approval process that prepares buyers to close in as little as 14 days.
For anyone contemplating a move this spring or wondering if they should continue waiting for rate drops, this episode delivers actionable insights from mortgage professionals with over 45 years of combined experience. Their accessibility (answering calls and texts even at 5 AM!) demonstrates the difference between working with dedicated local lenders versus traditional banks with limited hours and responsiveness.
Stop paying rent, build equity faster, and discover how today's innovative mortgage programs can make your next move possible sooner than you thought. This is essential listening for anyone looking to navigate the 2024 spring real estate market with confidence.
Jodi Vermillion
(614) 206-1687
jodi@ruoff.com
https://www.facebook.com/jodivermillion
Lisa Ferguson
614-633-6099
vlt@ruoff.com
Sarah Thress
614-893-5885
First Time Home Buyer course: https://sarahthress.graphy.com/
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/sarah_thress_realtor/
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/SarahThressRealtor/
https://www.youtube.com/@LIFEINCOLUMBUS
Hi and welcome to this week's episode of Come to Find Out. This week we are talking with Jodi and Lisa from Ruoff Mortgage, and they've been on before and I really wanted them to come on because they really educated me on this amazing program that I think is going to come in handy for a lot of people during spring market, especially those people that maybe already own a property, that are looking to purchase their next property. But we all know that in the spring market, when it's competitive, doing an offer with a home sale contingency is not good and is less likely to be I'm not going to say it's never going to be accepted, but it is less likely to be accepted. So when you guys educated me on this program called Calc, I was like holy goodness, we need to get this out there to everybody. So thank you guys so much for taking time out to talk to us and educate us.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah. So, so yeah, I think this is a big one that we're getting out to all the agents to understand how it works. It's called Calc and it's a partnership with Ruoff and Calc and it helps get a lot of our buyers that have been sitting on the fence so long off the fence. So you know, waiting to buy, thinking that interest rates are going to come down to 2%, is not going to happen. But it's certainly not buying your dream home. You know you want to do it while it's available and while it's on the market.
Speaker 2:But what Calc allows you to do is basically, calc will do a comparable sales on your current property and you have to have a relatively amount, a good amount of equity, and basically they'll do a price point guarantee.
Speaker 2:So they're literally getting reliable comps and they will offer up to 75% of the value for the buyer. So basically it's a legal binding contract and if they go into contract on a new home, then there's no impact on the debt to income ratio. So it takes away that debt to income ratio situation for someone that wants to buy now and not have to sell their property immediately. Let them stage it, get it prepared, get it desensitized and all the good stuff and then basically allows them to proceed and sell their home once it's ready to sell. So it alleviates the debt to income ratio situation you can. Also, it offers an equity line so you can tap into the equity without impacting your debt ratio also, which means it's not counted as a liability towards your debt that impacts the debt to income. So it allows you to tap into that equity also if you need a down payment for the new home.
Speaker 1:Which I think is so great for the equity for the new home. But also, what if somebody you know needed to do like a few little like things to the house? Could they do that, tap into that equity, do that and still not affect their debt to income?
Speaker 2:Absolutely Okay, absolutely yeah, you can use it either way, okay, yep, that's great, anything you can think of on that.
Speaker 3:I think the one of the greatest benefits is the lack of stress and having to sell to buy. I mean that's a huge thing. People sit on the fence, like Jodi said, because they're just afraid what if it doesn't sell, or what if something happens. Well, that HELOC helps get that equity out. They can put into the new property and they have a guaranteed purchase price, a guaranteed offer, so they don't have to use it. If it sells within 150 days, they don't have to use the offer, and just to clarify what Calc offers is 150 days.
Speaker 2:If that property does not sell. They'll buy the property from the seller and then, at that point, once they put it on the market and sell it in the open market whatever they get, even if it's over their guarantee, which of course it would be they give the additional amount back to the buyer.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, which is great. Or back to the seller Buyer is the seller, seller is the buyer. Oh, that's right, I'm sorry, yeah, yes, no, but that is true. I mean, and it's so great too to know that you have that like guarantee, because it takes that stress off. I have several clients right now that have been just trying to wait for, you know, spring market or trying to time it, or you know, and maybe they've been sitting there for a couple of years trying to decide, and I mean, obviously you can't time the market and everyone has different reasons why they're trying to move. So, you know, some of those clients, it didn't hurt them to sit there, but it's also like, okay, at some point, like you have expressed that you want to downsize, or you've expressed that you want to, you know, move out of state and you know, retire somewhere else, and things like that. So this, I think, is such a great thing, which is why I wanted you guys to come on and explain it, cause I could never do.
Speaker 2:Well, I actually have an example of a buyer that's that's using this program right now. I mean literally happening right now. So she went through the process of talking to the representative that provides the price point guarantee and it went smooth as butter. She was so excited about it and she's so excited that she's going to be able to buy. She already has identified a specific property and you know I can't issue a pre-approval that's non-contingent unless we have something like this in place if they don't qualify with both properties. So it's all turned out magically for her and she is super pumped and we're going to close, I believe, in about three weeks. Wow, so yeah.
Speaker 1:I love that and it's a little bit different than like your traditional, like bridge programs or anything like that, because that really just allows you to own two properties at the same time. Um, but this one at least you've got that guarantee, someone's going to buy it and you know, obviously there's there's fees involved, but everything has a fee.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I'd like to mention that it's minimal and I've talked to a number of people that have programs that are supposedly like competes with. This really doesn't, because a lot of those fees are a lot higher. It's only 1% plus $2,000 is all the fee is and it doesn't matter if they sell it for over that. Money's coming back to the seller, buyer. You know it's going to come back to them and they don't pay the fee until they close. You know, on the new purchase, Wow. So yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I think that's amazing and I really love that that is an option because, again, you know, as we were talking before we started recording, we were talking about like spring market and you know, just like, there are so many buyers that have been sitting on the sidelines as well, and you know, this is great for sellers because if these buyers don't have anything that they're interested in, then they're going to stay on the fence and they're not going to jump in.
Speaker 1:But if there's more properties that come available and we see, you know, any type of shift in interest rate you know even the most minuscule amount, then all those people are going to jump in and then it's going to be more competitive.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think we were talking about that quite a bit. You know, I reach out and follow up and call my buyers and leads and all those folks that are looking to get in the market, and it's a common strand that you hear that they want to, they want to wait. Yeah, like we think we're going to again see two 3%. It's not going to happen, but what you're going to do by waiting is wasting your money in rent. Yeah, so it accumulates up to. You know, if you're paying $2,000 a month and you're there for three years you know you kind of do the math you know that's 36 months you're paying $2,000. So you know that's a lot of money that you could have been building equity and building wealth, right.
Speaker 1:So when, a lot of times, I think what people think whenever they're renting, you know they think, oh well, you know, I can afford this, this is fine, you know, whatever. And if I went to buy a house, I would be paying more than this, and a lot of times, what I've seen is that, you know, what they're able to purchase is actually they're paying less than what they were paying in rent, or the same amount, and it's like okay, cool. So wouldn't you rather like basically pay yourself and have this, you know, like, instead of paying a landlord, building this equity, building this asset that you have, you know, and just getting out of the rental? You know?
Speaker 2:wheel, absolutely. I mean, I think I was just looking at a property where they bought in what was it 2020? And they bought a property what was it for like $500,000? And I think it's selling for $750,000? Yes, yes, we just looked this up and it's. I mean, I don't think people realize in this area, it's so desirable, you know, the cost of living is so affordable that you know our values just continue to rise. I think we were at 5% last year. Is that about right? And so I mean it. You know, once you buy the property, once you start building your equity, and then once time passes, I mean, here in central Ohio, you're, you've built more than what you've ever dreamed in equity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, which I think is such a great point because I try and educate my buyers and sellers of that as well I'm like, on average, our infrastructure here in Central Ohio is set up to give on average of 4% to 5% equity every year. So your home is always appreciating at that percentage rate. Now, of course, in 2020, 2021, parts of 2022, we were seeing, you know, 20% like appreciation, which again was a lot due to, like, the lower interest rate and all of that stuff and the high demand. But I think that you know that was an anomaly. So if you take those out and you only look at like the average it is, you know 5%, which is huge. You know, a lot of times things that are going on in the economy are affecting the West Coast and the East Coast, but they're not really necessarily affecting us because we have that infrastructure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, central Ohio has kind of been protected from those types of changes in economies. Yeah, a lot, I mean really a lot. And it's even different in Cincinnati and some other areas than in Columbus area. Yeah, if you look at the differences, there is a significant difference in those numbers. Yeah, and you know the volume of people buying properties here, the pricing, all of it's different. Yeah, even though it's so close.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I know it's crazy and you even see a little bit of difference in like what school district you're looking in, correct, you know, even in Central Ohio. But again, on average, that's what you're seeing. As long as you you know like sellers, what I try and tell them is don't look at what your neighbor sold for a couple years ago, because that is not a true comparable Right. Right a couple of years ago, because that is not a true comparable, even though we have that craziness.
Speaker 1:Even if we didn't, it's still not a true comparable, because every market is a little bit different, and so I always try and help educate them to say, like you have to look at what it looks like now, let's price it competitively, and generally what that means is a little bit less than maybe what you're seeing out in that area, Because what that does is it drives people in there and then you let the market decide what your house is worth, and so it just kind of drives it up, and what I see is most of the time when people follow that they end up getting more than they even thought they would get if they would have started at a higher price, too high, yeah yeah, we were seeing that a lot during that timeframe, a lot of the prices being so high, yeah, escalating, yeah Crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's, it's become more normalized, I guess now yeah, it was what I would call it. It's kind of, you know, flattened out a little bit more normal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. Well, and I think you know you do still see plenty of areas that have multiple offers and competing and you're looking at appraisal gaps and all of that stuff. But again, those are the ones that are fully updated turnkey and they priced it low so that it did drive this type of action. And even though we are still in very much a seller's market because it's still a supply and demand, we still don't have enough homes out there for all the people that want it. It's more of like a picky buyers, sellers market.
Speaker 1:So buyers can be picky because they're like, well, like I, if I'm going to spend this much money, I want it to be turnkey, or I'm going to offer you less, like you know, and so you really want to make sure that you're presenting your house, you know, in the best possible light, or you're adjusting that price to make up for that lack of updates. So, yeah, I agree, yeah, I love it, and hopefully you guys are. Are, you know, kind of seeing that type of stuff too? Um, you know, hopefully, what I what I'm saying is like things that you're seeing. I'd love to kind of hear from you guys. You know, none of us have a crystal ball, of course, and no one can hold you to anything, but what do you kind of predict we're going to see in the spring market? Like, do you think we will see any even minuscule drop in rates? Or, you know, like, what do you guys kind of like feel and see?
Speaker 2:You're seeing a rebound right now. We had a little drop and then you have more news, more world news, of what's going on, even with tariffs and such that it's driving up the cost of goods. I feel you're not seeing higher unemployment numbers at all yet, and each time we get notification or get a news update about what's going on, it's to the contrary, because you've got different driving factors. So we haven't seen rates come. We did what about a week. A week ago came down a little bit and then we had some new industry news that popped it right back up. So I think you're going to see a wave.
Speaker 2:I think for a while. I don't think you're going to see any kind of a drop. Until what do you think June, June is what?
Speaker 3:everything I've read and seen, they're estimating that would be the earliest real rate drop. I think consistent yeah, not the ups and downs like we've talked about but we're seeing the market have more energy.
Speaker 2:I mean you're seeing people come back out. You know the spring is here, the sun shines out, they're ready to go see some properties. So you're seeing activity. You know, following up with a lot of my buyers, they're ready to get back on it. You know at this point, and you know, following up with a lot of my buyers, they're ready to get back on it. You know, at this point, and you know, build their wealth. So I think the market's still going to hold. You know a lot of good business and I think we're going to get back to. You know competitive offers and probably gap coverage again, and we'll see that probably in the next couple of months.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I totally agree and with that you know a lot of first-time homebuyers you know. I know that you guys are really passionate about helping first-time homebuyers, just like I am, and you guys are super patient and come up with all the different ideas. But I know you also we were talking about this before we started filming you were talking about a program that is for buyers and I just would love for you to kind of talk about the Home Advantage, the Neighborhood Advantage.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, so what it is? It's a specific program targeted towards property address only. So it's property specific and certain properties that qualify within these certain areas. They get a lower interest rate Usually it's about a half percent interest rate than what the market is.
Speaker 3:what the local market is. So it's kind of unique because we can't really there's not really a definitive map anywhere. We kind of have to go by address. So we're going to check those addresses, so people are looking at properties to make sure let's see if it qualifies for this program. You know, half percent interest rate is huge.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So it's a huge benefit to people. This is a conventional program. Yeah, it's conventional.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's surprising where the areas are. I've looked up some of the addresses and even down into Canal Winchester it could be a $450,000 house and it qualifies for that discount. Wow.
Speaker 3:So yeah, it's kind of-.
Speaker 1:It's not income driven either. Huh, okay, which I think that's good, because I feel like a lot of those programs out there are income-driven or it's only in certain areas of town that maybe they're trying to gentrify or whatever.
Speaker 3:Like revitalization, yeah, yep, and, like Jodi said, we went through some of the listings that are in the MLS and it's really strange because, like Jodi said, a $500,000 house is eligible. It just depends on the property.
Speaker 2:Marion Village. There's some in Marion Village Even towards the park. It's $750,000 that qualified in this particular zone and it's not revitalization. It's completely different and it's relatively random, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I love that. So basically, if someone came to you and they qualified for a conventional loan and they told you about a home, you're just automatically going to look to see, we're just checking it to see if it's eligible.
Speaker 2:Well, we did that for agents too. If they have a list of their listings and they want us to check it out, I mean it's a way to advertise those listings. So yeah, I love that A good way to sell their property more quickly Not that it won't sell quickly anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but no, I think everything you know, every little bit helps, and you know, especially having something like that, if you have a seller that maybe doesn't agree with your pricing strategy, you know the realtor's pricing strategy, um, which happens, and that's okay, like it's your house, and if that's what you want, that's fine. But you know, our job is to you know, or my job I can't speak for every realtor my job is to educate you and tell you, like, here's, based on the knowledge that I have at this moment, here's what I recommend, and if you want to go with it, great. If you don't, I mean, that's fine too. But you know, I just love that you guys are giving that, though, and that you know, sometimes if someone didn't listen to the pricing strategy, maybe that would be a great way to you know, get it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean for the buyers. I think, knowing that you can get half off of the rate let's say today's rate 6.75 and you can be clear at 6, 3, 7, 5 or 6 and a quarter I mean that yeah, yeah, that's an incentive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3:So I think the bottom line in that is that we're always looking for the best program for the client in their situation. That's why we like to meet with them personally to get all their information and really deep dive into what their goals are and try to meet them and exceed them hopefully and get them in the right program.
Speaker 1:I love that. Yeah, because that's I mean, if someone came to you and wanted to start this program and let's just say someone's listening and they're like, oh my gosh, like I love their voices, I love their stuff, that they're doing anything, whatever you know they, I want to work with them, what would that process look like? So they would you know, like contact you and you would have them come in or you know, I guess, just walk us through that yeah.
Speaker 3:So it's really based on the clients. You know what's going to fit their needs. I just had a Zoom meeting with a couple last night because you know he worked till 630 and you know got home late and so we just did a Zoom meeting and went over everything. First time homebuyers kind of scared. He just graduated from college so wasn't sure what they could afford. You know all that stuff. And when I did all the numbers for them and you know ran them through DU and you know, gotten approved, eligible at this price we don't really want to go that high but we were so shocked that we could do anything with our situations. So just because you think you can't doesn't mean you can't. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think there's a lot to know being a buyer, and I think just listening to the scuttle out there, just looking up whatever on the Internet, isn't always going to tell you everything about the best options for that buyer. So I still love sitting down, especially with my first time homebuyers. I want them to know what they're doing, know what all of their options are, not just one option, understand why this one's better than that one. So that's, you know, passion for me, making sure that you know even their parents can come along if they, if they'd like or whatnot, but I always want to make sure that they they've got it, they've got it down, they know what they're doing. When they get out there and they start looking at properties, they know that we're behind them 150% and they're completely approved, not just kind of approved for a loan. So I think that's another option that we have for some of our buyers that are a little nervous is the Step Ahead Correct, and that's you know.
Speaker 3:Last night I suggested they do that because they're not quite ready to jump in the market yet, but they wanted to, you know, get through this process a little bit and they're getting married, and so they got a lot of stuff going on. So now I talked to them about the step head program because they were so nervous and anxious and I said well, this is really going to be a full approval, this is not a pre-approval. We run everything through underwriting as though you're in contract as a live file and you're not. But it lets you get over that hump of being scared of oh what if I don't get approved. Yeah, you are approved.
Speaker 2:Fully approved, then you're just finding a property, then you just find a property.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and they were just dumbfounded that that even existed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, because that's not.
Speaker 2:not every bank has that you know step-ahead program and they don't put it all through.
Speaker 1:And so you know, sometimes people are like well, but I'm approved for this. Like well, no, you were qualified for that, but you weren't approved for it, like it didn't go through the full underwriting. So I love that that you all also do that extra step to make sure, so that again we can. You know, if I'm like, hey, I need to close this in 14 days, can y'all do it? Yep, cause this person's already fully approved.
Speaker 2:So we can absolutely do that. Yep, yeah, so we use it a lot, yeah, yeah, I mean we've been doing this 25 years. I mean I think you've been in some form of this industry for 23 years, yeah, yeah. So I mean, if a deal can be done, we typically can get it done. So, and if we tell someone that we can do it, we can pretty much do it. Yeah, not even pretty much, we can do it, yeah and so. But that step ahead is a nice sues the nerves for folks, yeah absolutely.
Speaker 3:And that approval that goes out is a real approval. It says you are fully approved. Yeah. When it gets sent out, it's not pre-approval, it's fully approved. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which I love because, again, I've had some situations where it was real close because it was a first time home buyer every penny counted and you know they got their pre-approval. And then, when it got down to, you know we were in contract and it got down to like all of the final approval then they found out they weren't actually fully approved and that is. You know, that stinks for the buyer, that stinks for the seller, that stinks for the agent, for the lender, for everyone. No one's happy, no one's happy. And then you're having to explain like, well, okay, Um, you know, and so it just. You know, then the seller has to put their house back on the market, the buyers back in, you know, back in the pool, and it's just, it sucks all the way around, it's just stress they shouldn't have to go through Right.
Speaker 2:You know it're a professional loan officer and we've been asking for certain documentation that's particular. You know your pay stubs maybe the end of the year pay stub for the past two years, because we got to see the breakdown of everything and have additional income that we can possibly use, or things like that. But when we ask for it it's for a reason. So you know it's not. Oh, I don't feel like giving this information. It's like, well, we want to make sure you're 150% pre-approved and if we need this documentation, get it, yeah, and get it to us in a timely fashion, and then we can make sure you're good to go.
Speaker 3:I think we're good at knowing, too, what's really needed per file up front. So having those already in place, it makes the underwriting process way easier. Yeah, cuts down on conditions and it's just a way smoother process. Yeah, getting all as much information as we can from them up front, given what their file is.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, and well, and our pre-approval is solid. You know, we, when we give our you know referral partners a pre-approval, it literally states I have verified all these things and I verified their assets as well. So it's not I kind of did. Yeah, you know they might be okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:We're going to see if they're okay for today, but I'm not really sure we're going to roll the dice. Good luck Right. Fingers crossed, everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah no no, I love that and I love your approach to it, because you know it is uh, it's very apparent that you all care about the human and the person. It's not just about a paycheck for y'all, it's, you know, like, how do we help people to get into, you know, get into home buying, or be able to sell and purchase something else or you know whatever? Just how are we going to help them build their wealth and protect their assets?
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:So absolutely yeah, and it's not, yeah, totally not transactional, and and it's our reputation too, and we do care about our people. So it's, it's all the things, and we care about our referral partners reputation as well. I mean, we're an arm of that. So you know, if we don't perform, it's reflective and that doesn't help anybody either, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. That's how I met Jodi. Oh yeah, I was an agent. I love it. She did deals that I couldn't get done elsewhere. Yeah, so it was awesome Nice.
Speaker 1:I love that Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for taking time out. I know you're super busy. I will make sure that all of your information is in the show notes so that way anybody that's listening maybe they're driving and they couldn't write down Roo off or you know your names or anything like that they can go to the show notes, they can get all that information and then you know I'll have ways for them to reach out to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and we have a team here that everybody answers their phones on the weekends and in the evenings and all of that. You can text us anything that you need, so don't be afraid to reach out. You know we will be there to support anyone that's looking to get into the market or has general questions about programs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's also another really good point. You're not like the traditional banks, no, Like the big box banks that you know sometimes people want to work with. You know sometimes people want to work with Um, you know you, I always remind them. Um, you know, that's fine, Except if you need something at like six or seven o'clock, is that person going to answer their phone, which must do? Yeah Well, those big banks are not going to.
Speaker 2:I mean a buyer's going to need something on the weekend, or 7.30 at night and there's a deadline of 9 pm.
Speaker 1:Oh, for sure, right? Yeah, I can guarantee you there's going to be some question that you're going to come up with outside of business hours, absolutely, that you're going to need an answer to. And if you have to wait until the next day, or if it's a Friday, god forbid you got to wait till Monday. I mean, that house is probably gone.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then hope even on Monday you get a phone call back right, that's true that happens yeah a lot actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I do love that. You know you guys have the non-traditional hours and you know hopefully people are respectful of those boundaries. But but you know we all, we all get those calls. You know late at night and you know people freaking out Yep, yeah, I've been looking at the calls at 7 in the morning before Same, same, it's so fun you can call her at 5.
Speaker 3:Right, I'm up at 5. Am Put that out there.
Speaker 1:Okay, awesome, I'm not.
Speaker 3:So I mean you can call and I love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so great. Well, thank you again for being on here.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having us we appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Of course, of course. Yeah, thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode. Please make sure that you are leaving a review. Five-star review is always very much appreciated and any feedback that you give is a gift, so please leave feedback. Also, make sure that you are sharing this with others that is the greatest compliment that you can give us and make sure you're following along so you never miss another episode. Thanks so much and we'll see you next time on Come to Find Out.