Episode 21 - Restoring the Flock: God’s Blueprint for Healing After Collective Trauma (Featuring: Pastor Kayleigh Clark)

In this podcast episode with our guest, Pastor & scholar Kayleigh Clark we  explore how collective trauma reshapes churches, why language and listening matter, how sometimes the first step of finding healing a church is about asking the right questions, and how new shepherds can gather what harm scattered. She shares a path from lament to restoration with trauma-informed ministry, empathetic witness, and patient trust-building. Additional topics, references, website & terms mentioned below.

• Defining collective trauma and loss of communality
• The body of Christ keeps the score as a diagnostic lens
• COVID’s disruption, decision fatigue, and grief in congregations
• Betrayal trauma and why defenses form around leaders
• Jeremiah 23, negligent shepherds, and God’s new shepherds
• Using careful, descriptive language before hard labels
• Pastors’ secondary traumatic stress and pastoral self-care
• After-pastors, church splits, and rebuilding safety
• Theology that heals vs theologies that harm and shame
• Shifting diagnosis from behaviors to “what happened to us”
• Revitalization & Reformation.... with Restoration as a third path to consider
• Lament, middle-space testimonies, and empathetic witnessing
• Reading scriptures through the eyes of the sufferer
• Practical methods to restore trust and communality

YOUTUBE EPISODE LINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rREm75DGcgk

Check out Restor(y) resources at restorycenter.com
Restor(y) is a nonprofit founded by Pastor Kayleigh Clark whose mission is to accompany churches through healing, restoration, and wholeness 

Link to article of "New Shepherds For A Hurting Church
https://www.restorycenter.com/blog/new-shepherds-for-a-hurting-church

A Theological Framework for Religious Trauma (Short Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSIpj-NhhnA 

Kayleigh's Blog on Restor(y)
https://www.restorycenter.com/blog

Jeremiah 23  NIV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/search=Jeremiah%2023&version=NIV 
TERMS

Secondary Trauma  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_trauma  

DARVO is an acronym that describes a common pattern of behavior used by individuals—often abusers or manipulators—when they are confronted about their harmful actions. It stands for: D – Deny, A – Attack, RVO – Reverse Victim and Offender

Soul Bruises Episode on DARVO
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2240617/episodes/16013641 

Collective trauma happens when a whole community or group of people goes through something deeply painful or disruptive—like abuse, conflict, disaster, or loss—and it impacts not just individuals, but the relationships, trust, and identity of the entire group.

Betrayal trauma refers to the psychological harm that occurs when someone experiences a profound violation of trust or safety by a person or system they depend on for protection, care, or support.

Communality refers to the quality or state of sharing things in common — a sense of belonging, mutual responsibility, and connection within a group or community 

"Be Human, Be Kind, Be Both."

Chapters

• 0:16 Welcome, Mission, And Care Warnings
• 2:05 Introducing Guest Kayleigh Clark
• 7:59 Calling, Harmful Leadership, And Restory’s Origins
• 11:43 Collective Trauma Defined In Churches
• 16:30 COVID, Communality, And Disorientation
• 22:59 Betrayal Trauma And Divided Congregations
• 27:31 Jeremiah 23 And New Shepherds
• 33:12 Truthful, Restorative Language Without Harm
• 40:52 Why Pastors Struggle To Engage
• 46:41 Secondary Trauma And Clergy Care
• 53:27 Church Splits, After-Pastors, And Safety
• 1:00:04 Theology That Heals Versus Harms
• 1:05:00 Diagnostic Problem: What Happened To You
• 1:10:16 Revitalization, Reformation, And Restoration
• 1:16:02 Training Leaders For Trauma-Informed Ministry
• 1:22:40 Restory’s Lament And Testimony Work
• 1:27:30 Scripture As A Trauma Lens
• 1:32:08 Multi-Generational Wounds And Real Repair
• 1:37:02 Listening With Care And Accountability
• 1:41:54 Resources, Dissertation, And Final Wisdom
• 1:45:30 Closing Reflections And Next Steps

Transcript

Podcast Interview with Kayleigh Clark

Christie: Hello, my friends and fellow Soul Defenders. My name is Christie, and this is Soul Bruises, A podcast devoted to taking a closer look at spiritual abuse.

If this is your first time listening, I'm so glad you're here. I'm grateful for those returning, also. This podcast exists to name, confront and address spiritual abuse out loud, and to learn more about what this spiritual abuse thing is all about.

Unfortunately, spiritual abuse will not disappear on its own. Eradicating It requires many consistent voices speaking up and refusing to tolerate or accept this harmful behavior in the name of God.  This podcast is my personal contribution to that effort, and I'd love for you to join me on that.

Whether you're raising awareness in your church, family, friend group, or online, your voice greatly matters. Together we can create healthier, more honest communities of faith. This podcast will not shy away from hard conversations, and I know the topic of spiritual abuse can stir up strong emotions. Painful memories and even traumatic events, I cannot stress enough. Please prioritize your mental and emotional wellbeing.

If you need to turn off this podcast, do it. You're not alone. I am here to support you. Lastly, I wanna say a big hello to Soul Bruises listeners in Tampa Bay, Florida, Fitchburg, Massachusetts, Barrie, Ontario, and Kennewick, Washington. No matter where you're tuning in from, I hope you feel seen, loved and supported.

Today's guest is someone I've been truly excited for you to meet. Her name is Kayleigh Clark. In my conversation with Kayleigh, she shares how her own journey in ministry and research led her to focus on the deep wounds that often go unspoken in faith communities.. We talk about what collective trauma looks like in the church, how the pandemic reshaped our sense of connection and why addressing spiritual abuse requires both courage and compassion.

Kayleigh also offers some practical wisdom on building trust, creating safe spaces for healing, and embracing a trauma-informed approach to ministry.

Whether you're a pastor, a church member, or someone who's been hurt by the church, I think you'll find this conversation both challenging, encouraging, and full of hope.

Kayleigh Clark is a pastor, scholar, self-described, learner, and founder of a nonprofit called Restor(y), a ministry that is dedicated to resourcing training, and walking alongside local churches on their push toward healing and restoration. She is an ordained elder in the Free Methodist Church and a ThD candidate at Kairos University, where her dissertation research explore the impact of collective trauma on congregational health and flourishing.

Kayleigh's passion is helping churches understand and address the realities of spiritual abuse, trauma and unhealthy power dynamics while cultivating communities that embody the hope and healing of Jesus. She believes that a healthy church brings health to its community and that healing is always a communal journey.

She lives in Maryland with her husband, Nate, and their  son Timothy, when she's not writing, teaching, or dreaming about a healthier future for the church. You can usually find her outside with her family or in search of the perfect chai latte.

Christie: Today I am super excited or wicked excited, as they say here in Maine, that I get to sit down with someone I really look forward to introducing to you all. Her name is Kayleigh Clark. 

Welcome to the Soul Bruises Podcast, Kayleigh 

Kayleigh: Ahhh thank you so much for having me. And I, I did go to college in New England, so the, and my husband is from there, so hearing the wicked is, oh, it's bringing me back home. That was fun. 

Christie: Awesome. That's wonderful. It's beautiful up here. 

Kayleigh: Oh, yes it is 

Christie: up here. Yeah. We're starting to get the leaves changing, 

Kayleigh: I'm sure 

Christie: Yeah. 

Kayleigh: Wonderful. 

Christie: Okay, so I remember, meeting you for the first time at the Restore Conference outside of Chicago. 

Kayleigh: Yes. 

Christie: And then we were able to reconnect in Phoenix.

Kayleigh: Yes. 

Christie: And what an outstanding conference that is. 

Kayleigh: I know. Ya.

Christie: So awesome. for those that don't remember, Restore is a conference, dedicated to exposing spiritual abuse, amplifying survivor's voices and rebuilding the trust in the church. 

Kayleigh: Mm-hmm. 

Christie: Now, after hearing you speak, talking to you and listening to interviews, one thing is emphatically clear, and that is you love the church and are passionate about writing a new story of healing and restoration.

Mm-hmm. But before we delve into that, I love to hear a little bit more about yourself. Behind every line of a person's bio is a story. 

Kayleigh: Mm-hmm. 

Christie: So imagine we're chatting over chai lattes. 

Kayleigh: Mm-hmm. 

Christie: Asked you to answer in your own words, who is Kayleigh Clark? What would you say? 

Kayleigh: Yeah. Well, I am a wife. I've been married to my husband Nate for six years, and I am a mom and I have an adorable three-year-old son, Timothy, who is just wonderful.

And he's in that stage of life where everything has a question. 

Christie: Mm-hmm. 

Kayleigh: He is so curious. But I love to see his little curiosity start to blossom and just the things that he has questions for that I would never dream of asking questions about. And that level of wonder that children kind of rebirth in us, you know, they help us have wonder again, which is so fun.

I love outdoors. I love hiking. I love nature. before I had a kid, I loved rock climbing. We'll see if I get back to that after. Yeah. Once life settles down post toddlerhood. Mm-hmm. Um. I am a pastor, so I'm ordained in the Free Methodist Church. and so I'm not serving in a local congregation right now, but I do love the church and I'm a pastor's kid and a pastor's granddaughter, and a pastor's great-granddaughter.

And so pastors are my people. the church has always been my family, and so  I just, I love Jesus and I love his church, and, I'm thankful to get to be a part of it. And because I grew up in the parsonage, I'm not immune to both the stories of pain and the stories of beauty. but I believe that the stories of beauty are worth it.

And so I hold to those. 

Christie: Absolutely. Awesome. You said you don't have a local congregation, but home is always a local congregation. 

Kayleigh: Yes. 

Christie: You know, that that curiosity of a child and their questions about God and stuff is 

Kayleigh: Yeah. 

Christie: Never ending. 

Kayleigh: So, no, and I shouldn't, we don't have a formal local congregation, but we have a group of people that meet in our kitchen and eat dinner and talk about the Bible every week. And we have a prayer group that meets in our house once a month, so we just don't have like anything on the books. 

Christie: Gotcha, gotcha. 

Kayleigh: No, no, that's, 

Christie: that's awesome. That's awesome. Can you share what sparked a passion in your heart for helping churches heal from trauma and how that calling developed into your non-profit Restor(y)

Kayleigh: Sure, sure. So again, pastor's kid becoming a pastor, which is always an interesting journey. 

Christie: Mm-hmm. 

Kayleigh: And so I started my ministry serving under my dad, which was an awesome experience. And then I kind of was like, let me, let me spread my wings a little bit here and, and get into other contexts. And, once I did that, you know, just kind of had some different experiences at different churches.

One where I was a staff pastor, under a leader who, who served and led in ways that were pretty harmful. and so that was the first I had experienced that. thankfully my dad is not that, so I was protected from that while serving under my dad. and then experienced that as a staff pastor, took my first lead pastor position.

And as is relatively common, at least in our denomination, your first lead pastorate is usually in a very small church. There's a lot of really small churches in America. and usually these small churches  are, you know, they're just called churches in need of revitalization or churches in need of a new mission statement or vision statement.

And I'm a learner and I'm a student, so I was reading every book I could get my hands on, on turnaround churches and doing all the things, you know, all the things that the book said to do. And, and everything kind of seemed to be hitting a wall and I couldn't figure out why the strategies in these books were not working, and then I started to really take time to learn this church's story and I started to realize that there was more, you know, and as I took time to learn their history and, and hear some of the things that this church had been through. And at the same time, I was watching my generation and the generation under me leave the church in like a mass exodus.

Christie: Mm-hmm. 

Kayleigh: And especially my sister's generation. So I have three younger sisters and my baby sister, she still loves Jesus, but so many of her friends were leaving the church. Right, right. And so I'm holding these two kind of questions together of, you  know, what is this church really carrying and why are so many people leaving?

And it just became very apparent to me that something was, the church was hurting mm-hmm. In ways we didn't have language for. and I said, I'm a student. So I was like, well, I don't know the answer to this question, so let me go to school. Yes. That's just what I need to do. Yeah. And so I enrolled in a doctoral program and I found one that combines the psychological study of trauma, heal trauma theory with theological studies of the church.

Okay. Very unique program. Uh, but I was like, that's what I, that's what I wanna do. And once I started studying and learning, I felt like my learning and trauma theory was giving me a language for what I was seeing happening in the church that we hadn't had language for yet. 

Christie: Mm-hmm. 

Kayleigh: And it was just nowhere to be found this.

And so that was when God really started to, you know, pull on me and call me and be like, you know, so this learning is not. Not just having you here to learn these things, you know, we need to do something with them. And, and so that's really where Restor(y) came from was just this understanding that there was a wound in the church that there is language for.

Hmm. It just hadn't been translated into words and vernacular that made sense for people in the church. It was all this psychological language that just needed to be bridged over so that we could apply it to what was happening in the church. 

Christie: Right. And it's powerful when you start putting language to things.

Kayleigh: Yeah. 

Christie: It Gives people something to hang onto almost 

Kayleigh: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. 

Christie: Oh, that's, that's wonderful. I'm, I'm glad that you saw that in, in your church. In your small church. Yeah. That, yeah. Awesome. So we could go in so many different directions here, but I, but could we dig into what feels central to your dissertation?

Kayleigh: Sure. 

Christie: And I believe that's the concept of collective trauma. Yes. How does collective trauma, especially in a church setting, differ from individual trauma? 

Kayleigh: Yeah, absolutely. So collective trauma being that which is carried by the community. So trauma, and I'm sure many of your leader listeners probably know this, but trauma is not the event itself, but it's how the body experiences the event.

And so if we take that and we look at a community, you know, collective trauma is not a list of events that happen within a church, but it's really how that event or that series of event, 'cause often we are talking about complex collective trauma, so maybe a series of events is being carried by a church.

Mm-hmm. And so how it has impacted, and when we're talking about collective trauma, it's really how it has impacted the relationships between the people in the church, the relationships between the church and the world around them, and even the relationship between the church and God. And so recognizing the ways in which the relationships have been, hindered or shattered or scattered By. These traumatic events or occurrences is what we're looking at when we talk about collective trauma. Kai Erickson, who's one of the leader leading sociologists who's research collective trauma, created a word to try to describe it because again, language is helpful. Yeah. And so he uses the word communality.

And so when there is a loss of communality or, and that sense of neighborliness, that sense of community, so individual trauma shatters your sense of self. Right. It kind of distorts how you see yourself, how you understand yourself. Mm-hmm. Collective trauma does the same thing for a community. So that communal shared narrative that used to root the church that used to shape them, that's all disintegrated.

Their, their communality is gone. And so that's what we're really talking about when we look at collective trauma. 

Christie: Okay. Okay. And you had a previous interview where you, used the phrase The body of Christ keeps score. 

Kayleigh: Yes. 

Christie: I, I, I. Well, like you explain it, can you un unpack what that that means in the context of collective trauma?

Kayleigh: Absolutely. Yeah. So for those who are not familiar with, Bessel van der Kolk's book, "The Body Keeps the Score". He was a trauma psychologist who did a lot of research and a lot of writing on the ways in which trauma is not merely cognitive. It's not just happening up here, but it's impacting the entire body.

And that's through the nervous system, and that's through even different health concerns. And, and he was writing on this, and I was reading "The Body Keeps the Score" in my doctoral studies. And he talked about the way it was impacting children.  And so he would have children brought to him and they would have diagnoses of ADHD or reactive attachment disorder or different behavioral diagnoses.

And that's how they were supposed to treat them. And then he started to dig a little bit deeper into these kids' stories and he started to realize how many of them had witnessed horrific violence, had been abused, had been carrying so much childhood trauma. And so he really recognized that the diagnosis that these kids were given was not accurate for creating a helpful treatment plan because what was happening in their bodies, all of their behavioral reactions that people were trying to control were connected to these embodied experiences of trauma that hadn't been processed.

And as I'm reading that, I actually, in my copy of the body, keeps the score in the margins right there. I went, this is the church. Oh, because we have so many different diagnoses for churches with behavioral issues. 

Christie: Yes, yes. 

Kayleigh: And how many of them are actually carrying historical trauma that's in their bodies?

And so like me as a young pastor, I'm trying all these treatment methods and I feel like I'm just hitting a brick wall. And it's because I was treating their behaviors and never looking at what was being carried in the body of Christ that was causing and creating those behaviors. Yeah. And so I think we have to really think through the ways in which our churches, which the scripture gives us this imagery of body.

So if we take that seriously and we see our churches as. Bodies. Sure. We don't have an actual physical, collective nervous system, right? But all of our nervous systems come together and they react with one another and they mirror one another. And so there can be something happening within the body of Christ that is really just this internalized, embodied trauma response.

Christie: Wow. Yeah. That's, that's powerful.

Kayleigh: Absolutely. 

Christie: That's powerful. So the COVID pandemic was certainly a, do you remember that? 

Kayleigh: I do. 

Christie: Just wanted to check. 

Kayleigh: Yeah. Oh yeah. 

Christie: No, the COVID pandemic was certainly an example of collective trauma. Mm-hmm. It was, definitely a season of disruption and grief. Yeah. It revealed disconnection, fear, a division like of us versus them.

Mm-hmm. A loss of trust and just plain spiritual exhaustion. Mm-hmm. And I think we thought that reopening, just the reopening the church doors after lockdown was gonna solve this collective trauma that had occurred. Mm-hmm. Why do you think. COVID drove people apart. Mm-hmm. And how might sociologist Kai Erickson, who you mentioned earlier, help us understand it better?

Kayleigh: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. COVID was. COVID was collective trauma. COVID is actually one of the things that's increased the, research around collective trauma. So what's been really interesting, yes. I mean, yeah, that there's one benefit that has something that could come outta it, come from it, is that we are starting to talk about collective trauma far more because that was a global collective trauma.

and to use Kai Erickson's word, the reason I think it really drove people apart was because of how it destroyed communality. Mm-hmm. And so Kai Erickson developed that word in his work with a, a community in West Virginia that was completely destroyed by the Buffalo Creek oil flood. So oil sludge came down the hill and just took Yeah, coal, actually not oil sludge.

Coal sludge, I'm sorry. So coal sludge comes down to this coal mine. And if you've ever been to the Appalachian area of West Virginia and Southwestern Pennsylvania, you know, they're made in these communities around these coal mines. Yeah. And so because of negligence in the, mine operators who don't live in the community right?

They're the people that operate away from out here. Yeah. And so because of their negligence, the, the structure was not built sound enough to hold all of that sludge back. And so it came through and just took out how homes and, and lives. And, and so what was interesting though is so Kai Erickson is studying this and he's noting that what, when the people are speaking about what hurt about it or what they're struggling with, or why they're not talking as much about the actual flood or some of the horrific, you know, witnessing houses being taken out, as horrible as those were, and as traumatizing as that probably was, what he noticed is when they talked about what they were missing, what was causing them to continue to suffer, it was this disorientation of their sense of neighborhood.

And so when the National Guard came in to help bring healing the National Guard, set up these like temporary houses and just kind of randomly assigned people to them without considering the fact that, hey, these people have lived in really close community for a really long time and they have new neighbors and now they're scattered and, and this breakage in this sense of community or neighborliness is what the people would articulate by what was so disorienting.

And I think that's what we saw a lot in COVID because now we're very isolated people. You saw every day at work or at the grocery store or people or at church people you could count on running into, you're not running into anymore. And not only that, but when you did, there was like this layer of processing you had to do about what are the correct ways for me to now engage with you?

Can I. Shake your hand, can, we probably can't hug. Do we? You know, you're, you're seeing a lot of people doing fist bumps, like, you know, so it's, yes, there's like this constant mental processing that has to happen with like, okay, how do I engage in, in-person relationships when those were permitted again, you know, there was, so even when the doors to the church opened, and you're right, people thought, well, okay, maybe we can just flip the switch and everything can just go back to the way that it was, you know, your body, our bodies were still carrying the grief of isolation for so many months.

Still carrying the. Ya know, it brought about so much division and so much contention and so much, you know, what is the right con, you know, decision leaders, pastors. I know. So I was first time lead pastor during COVID, so that was something, oh, shoot. So, but you know, we're carrying this decision fatigue.

You have to make decisions every day, right? And, and every day you get new information that changes this. And like the decision you made yesterday suddenly could be wrong based on what you learned today. And I think so none of that went away just because we opened the doors. Right? So, so, okay, now we're back together and I, I remember this happened and we, we'd come back together and then there'd be like a surge in our community.

And it'd be like, okay, well, do we need to close again? Do we just move outside?  Like, what do we, what do we do? And so I think it was a very elongated process of being able to even come back together. And then I think it's really important that people realize that. Suffering stays in your body if you don't process it.

And so when you're gathering a group of people who have been grieving for a season, who have been divided by political, for political reasons, or just on different sides of what decisions should have been made, you know, so they're coming together and well, how do we interact with one another when we've been so divided from one another?

All of those things carry into. Even after. And, and the thing with trauma healing and what I think is really important specifically in the church to understand is that trauma healing is never a returning to the way that things were before the trauma happened. You know, the phrase during COVID a lot was, we wanna go back to normal.

We are not gonna go back. It's not going to be the same because it's so dramatic. Yes. You know, and so there, so what trauma healing really is, is it's simply integrating pieces that have been disintegrated into a new hole. You're not gonna have the hole that existed before trauma, but you don't have to stay disintegrated and shattered, like you can't integrate again.

You just have to know it's gonna look different. And I think that's difficult for people sometimes. 

Christie: And that's definitely, more helpful when you have a support system

Kayleigh: Yes. 

Christie: Which is the family of the church, you know? 

Kayleigh: Right, right. 

Christie: But when that's, yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. yeah, and I always thought that that period of time was extra difficult for pastors because I really felt like pastors were doing the best job they could do, listening to the government and listening to their congregation.

And that was a tough time for pastors, I really felt for them.  So, yeah. Shoot. So I first came across psychologist Jennifer Freyd's work when I was researching for an episode I did on DARVO 

Kayleigh: Okay. 

Christie: The acronym DARVO I'm sure you're familiar with that. 

Kayleigh: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. 

Christie: And for those that aren't, you can go back to the episode I did on that.

, But also in her work she talks about betrayal trauma. Mm-hmm. So when trauma stems from a toxic leader, a pastor, how can a church process that pain together? Mm-hmm. And how can Freyd's concept of betrayal trauma, apply here? 

Kayleigh: Yeah. I actually think betrayal trauma is incredibly important for understanding how to walk congregations through healing from trauma that's connected to clergy abuse or clergy misconduct.

 And the reason being that betrayal trauma helps us understand why people in the congregation react so differently. Hmm. And so often what'll happen when you have a pastor or a leader who has led in a way that is harmful or abusive, there is usually a faction that comes to his or her defense. And a reason for that is this betrayal trauma, their body feels safer denying the accusations.

Because if they were to recognize them, if they were to admit that they're correct, then their body would be flooded with this deep sense of betrayal of, but wait a second, this is somebody that we trusted, this person baptized our kids. This person did our wedding, this person did our premarital counseling.

Like all the things that pastors do, because often pastors who are caught in abuse or misconduct are put on a good show in other places. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. So it's, it's not like they're usually not. You know? Yeah. Abusive in every circle. They're usually, you know, yeah. Trying to hold good face in most places.

And so you have people who are really, really conflicted and who don't know what  to do with it. And their bodies say, you know what, it's just safer if we make the accuser or the victim the problem.  Because then we don't have to deal with the sense of betrayal that doesn't make it right. I'm not saying that to like justify their actions.

I'm not saying that, but I am saying that when a congregation is seeking to heal from the trauma of an abusive leader, recognizing what is going on under the surface for a faction of people who maybe are starting to come at the person who was harmed, can be helpful in moving towards full healing for the entire community, because that's one of the most.

Difficult parts of healing from collective trauma. There's no way everybody's gonna be on the same page. You're not gonna, you're not gonna start the healing journey and everybody's gonna have experienced the same way. See it the same way, des even desire like the same process of healing. And so being able to  provide space for a faction of people who are dealing with that betrayal trauma, whether they've, whether they're in that place where they're still denying it or they're in that place where they're really like, oh, so the reason this hurts me is not because I was.

Directly abused or directly harmed, this is hurting me and I'm experiencing sense, a sense of trauma because I so trusted this person and now I don't know what to do with that. And being able to honor that pain and recognize that harm that they may be carrying, even if they weren't a direct victim of the clergy abuse or clergy misconduct, can be helpful in walking a whole community.

And then you can begin to find this, this communality again of just being able to come together and support one another in whatever way the harm is touching you and being able to really invite people into a place of safety where they can name their sense of betrayal so that they don't have to project it onto the victim or onto the accuser so that they can recognize that no, what I'm, my reason for denial is actually because I just.

I don't know how to process this betrayal.  So we wanna create space for that so that people can really come into a place of healing from that. 

Christie: Yeah. And that can be so profound. Again, putting words to things can Yeah. Take away some of the, heaviness of it, for sure. And yeah. Way of move forward. Way of moving forward. 

Kayleigh: Yes. 

Christie: Jeremiah 23. You've written about it in a blog entitled "New Shepherds for a Hurting Church". What does that particular passage show us about leadership and how do you see it speaking to the church today? 

Kayleigh: Yeah. Jeremiah 23 is, is one of our foundational passages at Restor(y) If not the foundational passage at Restor(y) . and I read it one day and I was like, this is what God is doing. And so that's what I think is profound to me, is that we think that religious trauma and spiritual abuse are these new topics and they're  gaining popularity and people are writing books about them.

And then you open Jeremiah. You're like, oh wait a second. This is really old. And there is a, there is a story of religious trauma and spiritual abuse right in Jeremiah. And you see what, so God calls out these shepherds and he says, woe to you shepherds, for you have scattered my flock. You have not attended to my sheep, and therefore I'll attend to you.

And if you read it in the Hebrew, like this word attend is used over and over again. It's very apparent in the Hebrew. And so God says like, you have not attended and this attending is this, this relational, careful paying attention. Oh wow. So in other words that the shepherds have not. Cared for, carefully paid attention to the sheep that they have been entrusted.

So what's interesting is God says, so I'm going to attend to you. And he, so he says he's going to deal with it. He's going to remove them from their position. And so I think that's the first thing that this passage really helps us understand is like when our leaders, when our church leaders are not doing their job and they're not attending to the flock, the Lord is, you know, he is still the one paying this careful relational attention to his people.

He is the one who is going to bring wholeness and restoration. And then what is really interesting to me, and what I think is really important in the conversation of healing the church is that God has a plan and his plan involves new shepherds.  And so he says, I'm going to tend to you and I am going to raise up new shepherds.

And I'm going to place them over my flock and they will gather them together so that none are missing. And ,and they will no longer fear or be dismayed. So God is going to use shepherds. And so I think that there is, there's some, I won't call it a debate, but there are some in like the circle of talking about spiritual abuse, talking about religious trauma that just wanna like, like let's just do away with pastors.

Like do we really need them? Like it's just, and like, let's restructure everything. And like there's room for like rethinking who a pastor should be, what a pastor's job is like. There's room for that. There's always room for that. But the truth of the matter is. God is still raising up shepherds. Yeah. He's still calling people to shepherd his flock.

Yeah. And that's how he wants to bring about healing is through these new shepherds. He wants them to gather the people together so that none are missing. Right now we have this, I noted it earlier, but this like exodus from the church, like people have been scattered from the church and God wants to gather them together.

And then what's really powerful to me, again if you study, if you do the word study with Hebrew in Jeremiah 23, so, Judith Herman, who's one of like the key writers on trauma, she wrote "Trauma and Recovery", which is like a seminal text on trauma. And she uses the word shattered to describe what trauma does to a person.

Mm-hmm. It shatters their sense of self. It shatters their relationship. And so this shattering language is very common in trauma theory and trauma studies. And so if you look at Jeremiah 23 in the last verse, it says, you know, they will no longer fear or be dismayed. That word dismayed in Hebrew actually comes from the word shattered.

And so it's, you know, God knows what has happened to his people. They have been scattered and they have been shattered. This has been traumatizing for them. And he's saying that through the raising up of these new shepherds who are going to carefully attend that, through this relational caring for his people, they won't be scattered or shattered anymore.

You know? And so I think it's just really a profound text that demonstrates the truth that God has always been a God of restoration. He's always been a God of healing. He's always been a God who understands what trauma's doing to his people. And he is  always had a plan for how to bring about that, that regathering and that restoration.

And the plan includes new shepherds. 

Christie: Well, and I, and you kind of spoke to it a little bit and you, you get the. Were those the one who just throw out all the pastors and stuff? So my question is in, in your just, interpretation of it, do you see these new shepherds as just being pastors or just being layman or a mixture of both?

Kayleigh: Yeah. I mean, I think it's whoever responds to God's call of, of shepherding the people. And so I think that's where maybe we, maybe we get into trouble where we have so. Maybe professionalized. And I say that as a professional pastor, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I say that as somebody who takes, I take my ordination vows very seriously.

You know, and I took ordination vows before I took wedding vows. So, you know, for me, my, my ordination isn't just like a title. My, you know, it's, it's a commitment to shepherd the people of God, which is what my ordination vow  said. Yes. So, but I think that we have in the western church very much, you know, turned it into a job title rather than turn it into a calling or to a vow.

Of, of being able to shepherd God's people. But I would say that whoever God calls to do that in whatever capacity Yeah. Whatever that looks like. And it's returning to that, that sense of, of a call to shepherd that I think is what will be really healing. Important. Yeah. And I love the Bible talks about, you know, David being a shepherd, you know, he was like, yeah.

Came up from a, a boy, you know?  So God calls early and Yeah. And young and, and you know, unpolished. Yes, yes. At some point.

Alright, renowned psychologist, Dr. Diane Langberg I know you know who she is. Yes. She emphasized the importance of confronting spiritual abuse with integrity and compassion.

And I really appreciate her for doing that. Yeah. Because it can be harsh in this space. Mm-hmm. She warned against  temptation to adopt the same, that we can adopt the same abusive tactics used Yes. By perpetrators. So how do we talk about spiritual abuse in a way that's truthful, but also restorative without using abuser tactics, but also taking into account that the word abuse can also be very triggering.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm so thankful for Diane Langberg and her work, and at in Phoenix when she spoke, I was so profoundly moved, by her continual reiteration that our love for the Lord has to guide our work. Yeah. And she said it over and over again and I was so thankful because it is very accurate that there are spaces and there are conversations being had around the topics of spiritual abuse and religious trauma that are not, not guided by a love for the Lord and for his church.

And they come from other places that are well-meaning. But I am, I am very convinced that we will not see an end to religious trauma and spiritual abuse unless the Lord is leading it. Unless God is doing it and unless it is happening within the church. Hmm. And so I, that's why we do what we do.

We focus on the church. , And I will say that it's not easy.  in many, many places, our churches, our denominations or organizational structures are, are wired to or not, are created and structured in such a way to protect the pastor. Yeah. And again, I think that sometimes comes from a good place.

I'm, I am a pk. pastor's kid I've been, I've watched my dad get false accusations thrown at him. Like, I, I know that that is, that is a reality, right? Mm-hmm. Like pastors, pastors have their own side of this thing carry.  And I know that that's a reality. And so, but I, but that can make it very difficult to know, okay, so how do we advocate well, for people who have experienced spirit, real spiritual abuse and religious trauma?

How do we have these conversations? And I would say that in order to not adopt the same posture as abusers, in order to not like, try to use their practices and even not just not using their practices, but really trying to do this in a way that keeps Jesus at the center of the healing process and doesn't even try to circumvent him in any way, shape or form.

You know, I think we really have to stay in a posture of compassionate curiosity. That invites people into a place of listening that invites people into a place of learning that that does realize. Okay, so if me using the term spiritual abuse is gonna just end this conversation right here, right now, is it more important that I can use that word?

Or is it more important that I can help this person see the toxic culture that exists within their denomination structure, organization, church, place? And can I use different language that won't automatically raise their guards? Because if you're, like, for instance, if you're gonna speak to a denominational leader Yeah.

About some, and I say that 'cause I come from a denomination system. I know a lot of people are in non denominational spaces. But if you're gonna speak to an do also Yeah. Organizational leader, and you're gonna say, I've been noticing a pattern of, you know. Really hard manipulative leadership. Let's go with manipulation.

'cause manipulation's tricky because it's not like, usually in most places, if you're talking about things like sexual abuse or like financial money laundering where like mm-hmm. The law comes in, right? It's a little bit easier. People are usually like, okay, let's figure that out. Yeah. But when you're talking about spiritual abuse, emotional, mental, this, this manipulation, this fear-based leadership, the strong arming, you know, the stuff that we hear in like the Mars Hill podcast, like there's a reason these things can go on for so long.

It's because it's complicated for people to get their heads wrapped around. Yeah. So when you wanna have a conversation about those things. Do you need to start out the gate with calling it spiritual abuse or using really hard language, or can you start by unpacking, you know, what happens when people, what is gaslighting?

Like, Hey, can I tell you what it's like for a congregant to come meet with this pastor? You know, usual in congregations that I've talked, congregants, that I've talked to, have said that when they meet with this pastor and they want to share a real concern, they leave thinking that they've done something wrong or that they've committed some, they're the problem.

And, and that's not just happening with one person. This is a pattern that we're seeing and, and so being able to have conversations that talk about the impact, that then leads you to a place where you can begin to use some of that harsher language. I'm not saying let's sugarcoat it the whole time, but I'm saying let's help people understand what's actually going on beneath that language because, so that they don't.

Immediately raise their guard and don't wanna hear anything that you're gonna say. Um, even things like helping people understand an accurate application of Matthew 18. Like, Hey, maybe we can't just throw Matthew 18 onto every conflict when there's a power differential. These are things that people haven't always thought about.

And if we can be people who, who want to be helpful teachers so that we can actually see restoration in the church. And I would say that for the most part, and I know it's not true of everybody, but for the most part, when you are engaging with people who are not the abuser Yeah. They really do want healthy churches.

Yes. Yeah. And they may just not understand how some of this stuff is impacting. A lack of health in their churches. Yeah. Now when you're a, when you're trying to work specifically with like a narcissistic leader or the abusive, like that's a whole other, that's a whole other ballgame. Yes. Yes. But if you're working with people in the system who really do want what's best for the church.

Is there a way for you to help educate them to widen their understanding? And can you do it from a posture of like, compassion and helping them learn instead of immediately telling them, Hey, your, your system's abusive. Mm. You know, and you can get there and you can be like, so these are the ways that it's harming people.

And by the way, like this is called spiritual abuse and it is, it is as damaging as other forms of abuse. So it is really important that you take care of it. But I think there's a way to do it without coming at people very accusatory. Yeah. 

Christie: So we talked about language. So what you're saying is, the language of spiritual abuse can be so abrupt, you don't ever get to the deeper parts of it.

Kayleigh: Right? 

Christie: Um, is that what you do? You, do you tend to use the term religious trauma instead? Or how do you 

Kayleigh: I, when I'm talking to somebody who doesn't have a background in it, so if we're talking to somebody who, you know, isn't maybe, and maybe their only like hearing of it is coming from social media, coming from places that are really inflammatory.

Yeah. Then I actually am going to start with just descriptive language. So this is how somebody feels. This is how people in the congregation are being impacted. This is the, the level of trust in this congregation is really corroded these, and these are all signs and symptoms of religious trauma or spiritual abuse.

Wow. And so it's important that we figure out which one is happening, right? 'cause they're not the same. Right? And we know that not all spiritual abuse creates religious trauma for people. And not all religious trauma comes from spiritual abuse. And so you wanna do some really good digging work to figure out what is happening.

But if you can use more descriptive language, and again, this is not when you are, this is not for people who are actually trying to like approach the abuser. Again, that's, but if you're trying to, if you're trying to work with whoever the powers are that have some authority over whether or not this person can stay in a position of authority.

So whether that's a local church board. Whatever the, the polity happens to be. Yeah. I think coming at it from a place of like, can we see what's going on here? Hmm. And I do wanna put on one one more caveat, though. You may not be listened to. Yeah. And so I have advocated for people in spaces, where I have not been listened to.

And that's a really, really hard place to be, because you and the person stays in power and, you know, and, and at a certain point, like there you. If you don't have the power to make the change. Yeah. And the people who do don't hear you, or choose to see things differently than the way in which you're presenting it, that can be really painful and it can be really hard to walk away from that.

And so I would say that in those moments, there's always a moment of personal discernment, that you need to do with the Holy Spirit to say, okay, Lord, you know, what is my role here now? You know, do, do I stay or do I go, like, how much do I still stay involved in this organization? And I think that's a, that's always a point of personal discernment.

You know, that the Holy Spirit will show you, like if he wants you to continue to stay in a place where you still have some kind of voice, where you can keep being the Yeah. Being the squeaky wheel. Yes. And  came like, you know, Hey, have you, have you noticed this behavior over here that I've talked to you about before?

Hey, it came back like, can we talk about it again?  And, and sometimes, and if you can do that and that that's safe for you, and you can do that without causing your body too much harm or putting yourself, then that might be what the Holy Spirit's asking you to do. If it's not safe for you, then you may need to step away and be like, okay, I wasn't heard and I need to go find a place where I feel safe and feel like I can, you know, take care of myself and take care of others better.

But I will say that's a reality of having these conversations is sometimes you'll be received and sometimes people will be very thankful and sometimes people will want you to continue to help them understand and open their eyes more. And, you know, I've done plenty of trainings where people have been like, oh my goodness.

I had no idea that even pastors who are like. Oh, shoot. Like there are a lot of pastors who are walking that line and they don't know they're walking that line because they're just leading based on some CEO book they read. And so, yes. And so then you help them open their eyes and sometimes they're very thankful and you have that happen, and then you have people who just won't receive you.

And, you know, that can be difficult, but it's, it's still worth having these conversations. 

Christie: Yeah. And I've, I've found it kind of lonely in this space. If you're wanting people to listen to you,

You realize that when you speak up, you don't get well received necessarily. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you have to be okay with that, but you have to keep. Talking. Yeah. And I, I found that I get a lot of encouragement from people like yourself, people at the Restore conference.

People that are going through pain that are like, yeah, thank you for putting words to stuff. 

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, mm-hmm. Important to encourage each other. 

So many church members, experience spiritual abuse, 

And it seems to be rarelyl addressed. Why do you think pastors struggle to talk about spiritual abuse, even if they witness it or experience it themselves?

Kayleigh: Yeah, so I think pastors are struggling in this conversation for a few reasons. One, I think pastors are often in that space of betrayal trauma too. Mm-hmm. You know, if this is a colleague that they walked closely with, if this is somebody they've done ministry with and now all of a sudden, they hear even when it's not somebody you knew personally.

The truth of the matter is the story is coming out about the number of clergy involved in misconduct. It's a lot, and it can become really exhausting from a pastoral perspective. I mean, I remember, So before I was a lead pastor, I was a children's pastor, so I was deeply embedded in Orange for a very long time.

Mm. And so when the stories about Reggie Joyner I don't know Reggie Joyner like I've never really met him, but I went to every Orange conference when I was a kid, pastor. I, you know, read all the books. I used all the curriculum. And so that it hits you more personally than I think people realize. You know, even when it's not somebody you knew, um, when it's where you got all your training, where it's, you know, it's, and so I think pastors are dealing with their own sense of betrayal trauma, that there's not really space for them to process.

You know, like where do they talk about that? How do they unpack? And they don't have language. A lot of pastors don't know betrayal trauma is a thing, so they don't know what's happening or what they're experiencing in their bodies. I think the other thing is that pastors, um, pastor, many pastors recognize that spiritual abuse is perpetrated by pastors.

And so I think they may wonder if they can talk about it, right?  And so I think that there's probably pastors who, who don't come to things like the Restore Conference or don't come to those places because they don't wanna make it unsafe for people who are there to heal. You know, they know that they are in the same category as those who have caused the wounding.

Yeah. And so they don't want to perpetuate the harm. And so, and it, it is, it's very difficult to talk about harm that is done. Yeah. By people like you, people who wear the same title you wear, who you wear a collar, I don't know many pastors who still do, but if you wear a collar, like who are wearing the collar, you know?

Yeah. And, and it's like, how do you. How do you speak about something that's being perpetrated by people who are, who you represent in some way? And then I think there's also the moments where pastors have, especially now I think, I think the words of religious trauma, church trauma, church, hurt spiritual abuse, are becoming very, very widespread.

And I think in one way that's good. And I think in one way it's really harmful. Mm-hmm. Because anytime it's the same, any form of trauma, the more we use the word trauma, the, like to describe things that are not tr trauma. Yeah. The less weight it can carry, it waters down. But I also think that there are probably several pastors who have had those phrases thrown at them in moments where it's not true.

Yeah. Yeah. And I know that that's not the, and I don't wanna, I hesitate to say that because I don't wanna take away from the stories of people who have truly been wounded. But I have been on the other side. 

Christie: Yes. 

Kayleigh: And there are moments where, you know, disagreements get labeled spiritual abuse or mm-hmm.

Church trauma or, you know, and that can make pastors really wary Yes, yes. To enter into this conversation, especially in how divided the church is right now in America. I mean, you could simply not vote for the same candidate and that can be labeled. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Some form of, I mean, it just is getting to that place where this language has become a little too commonplace.

Yes. Yes. And I think that that can make it difficult for pastors to know how to enter. I'm not saying they shouldn't. I really believe pastors should be having this conversation because again, I don't think we're gonna see healing come unless it happens in the church. So I think pastors have a huge role to play.

But I can see why pastors are resistant 

Christie: Yeah. Well, and I've, I've talked with a couple pastors, they're like, it's great you're talking about spiritual abuse in amongst the body, but what about spiritual abuse against us? And I know that pastors and their families can face challenges of just playing church work, but there's also this, um, they also can absorb this trauma from the congregation or trauma against themselves.

How does this secondary trauma show up and how can pastors take care of themselves while still leading well? 

Kayleigh: Yeah. Yeah. So secondary traumatic stress is, so clergy are at one of the highest risks for developing secondary traumatic stress. So any kind of caregiving profession is at risk. Clergy are at a much higher risk than counselors or even, first responders.

Most of that is because they don't get training on it. Right. So I, I have a sister who's a licensed therapist and you know, I asked her like, did you get training? And like, so she gets training on secondary traumatic stress. Pastors don't know it exists. Yeah. So if they're lucky, they've heard the word compassion fatigue.

Most of them have just been cautioned against burnout. What is being discovered recently in a lot of research is that most clergy burnout has a connection to some kind of secondary traumatic stress or vicarious trauma. Mm-hmm. And so what happens is, clergy. Pastors are often wearing about seven different hats during a traumatic event, right?

And so let's say a congregant gets, rushed to the hospital, and so often they're called like right after the EMT, right? So they're first on the scene, you know, the ambulance is there and the pastor's car is right behind, right? And maybe a family member's riding with them. So like the minute they show up, they're on and they're serving and they're shepherding this person in distress and they're taking them to the hospital and more family showing up.

So they're shepherding more people and they're praying over, maybe they're anointing the person who's ill and they're doing all the things. And if the person passes away, you know, they're immediately caring for the grief of the family at the bedside. Now this is a congregant who this pastor who has loved and served and walked with.

Yeah. So you know that deep down in that pastor's body is a moment of grief that they're not able to attend to. Yeah. And so that grief just sits there and it sits there unattended to as they're attending to the grief of everybody else around them. Mm-hmm. And then they plan the funeral and they meet with the funeral home and they make all the arrangements and they write the funeral  message funeral's.

Probably on a Saturday they're gonna wake up on Sunday, they're gonna preach Sunday sermon that was already on the books for them to have to preach.  And then they're gonna. Wake up on Monday and go to the office and Wow. All of that grief and stress is going to sit in their bodies until they process it.

And most pastors don't have the space to process it.  They're not given it. Pastors are often very lonely, very isolated. They, because they can't process their grief as they're trying to shepherd somebody else through their grief. And so because of this, what is being called, this kind of trapped arousal because of this stress that's just stuck there, it builds up and it builds up and it builds up.

And this is where we see, the vicarious trauma. Now, when it comes to things like, I, I will say, I hesitate to use the phrase spiritual abuse for what pastors are experiencing because there's often when the congregation, the congregation can abuse the pastor for sure. But the congregation usually isn't in a position of power.

Now that's not so true. Like if you're in a congregational church where the board can fire you, then yeah, the board's got some power.  And they can definitely mm-hmm. I've just heard a story the other day of a pastor who like showed up and was told, Hey, you're done. You need to clear out your desk.

You, you have to vacate the parsonage. Like that is definitely spiritual abuse. Mm-hmm. A lot of pastors who face abuse from congregants, it would be more likely some kind of emotional, mental kind of abuse just because there isn't that level of spiritual power dynamic that's at play in spiritual abuse.

And that happens to pastors all of the time. Okay. Pastors can be deeply wounded by congregants in many, many ways. And so you can have the spiritual abuse moments where congregants with power, you know, choose to use that power and forced termination of clergy is very common. And I'm not talking about forced termination where it's like makes sense.

I'm not talking about removing harmful leaders. I'm not. That's, that's firing them for, cause I'm talking about forced termination because the board decided they didn't like this person's preaching style all of a sudden, or this person, the board decided, Hey, we need somebody younger. We need, or it happens a lot to staff pastors who are serving under more harmful lead pastors, where all of a sudden it's like, well there's a conflict of vision alignment is what they tell, like the congregation or whatever.

Yeah. And, and the person didn't have any say and they didn't get warning and there was no like performance review and, Hey, can you work on this? And like, none of that. Just like, Hey, you're gone. Right? Yeah. And so all of those are forms of abuse that many pastors are carrying that there, there are emerging spaces to help pastors deal with that.

So there's some really wonderful organizations. The Pastor's Hope Network is committed to walking alongside pastors who have experienced forced termination. So there's some really great work being done in these fields, to provide pastors with those areas of support, but they're not well known and they're new.

And so pastors are carrying both the vicarious trauma of carrying for the trauma of other people as well as their own places of abuse. And I didn't even get into the pressures people put on pastoral families. That's a whole other Thing. But that can be it too. 

Christie: Well, I know you're talking about pastors, 

sharing with other people often that's their spouse, 

Kayleigh: right.

Christie: And Back and forth, the trauma.

Church splits can be extremely painful and trust can get broken. From your experience, what helps people like feel safe again and how can a new pastor step into a congregation and heal and rebuild these relationships? 

Kayleigh: Yeah. Church splits are very painful. You're losing your family, right? And so I think, and there's, there's that level of betrayal trauma even there, you know, like, oh, these people that we did life with, these people that we walked so closely with, they left, and how could they have left? And, and what do we do and can we still stay? And I would say for, for a pastor who maybe is coming into this congregation fresh, and they weren't there during the church split to recognize that it's going to take a lot of time for even that pastor to build trust.

Hmm. And so in a circumstance where maybe, and this happens with more times than you would think, If a pastor leaves and takes part of the congregation with him or her. Right? And so that can be a really painful church split. And so that'll happen where pastors will choose to leave a congregation and half the congregation will follow the pastor.

So at that point you have kind of the double whammy betrayal trauma where the congregation who's left staying has been betrayed by half the congregation and their pastor. And so anytime a pastor follows an abusive leader or a leader who was removed from misconduct or who stepped away on their own, in very unhealthy ways that pastor is called an "after pastor".

Mm. And so there's actually terminology for it. It's been studied and after pastors, face added resistance. So after pastors will face a, a deep lack of trust from the congregation which they serve. And often pastors who don't know this will take it personally, right? And think that this, oh, this congregation won't trust me.

This congregation won't let me lead this congregation. , all of those things. And so what's actually happening is the congregation simply has no trust for the office of the pastor. And so they, they don't trust, it doesn't matter who showed up to fill that role, there was going to be a roadblock of building trust.

And so pastors need to start there. And so, okay, how do we, and so it's slow work. It is slow work, and often pastors come in like guns a blazing. Like, okay. And, and they're excited. And I mean, it's not like they're, they wanna do what God wants this church to do, and they've got ministry ideas and you know, they're coming in and maybe they're coming in fresh from seminary and they've all these things that they wrote papers about and now they get to do it in real life.

Like, and to like slow down and say, okay, let's, let's learn each other's stories. Let's learn how to listen to one another. Doing a lot of work to make sure that the congregation has a sense of safety amongst each other. And so remembering that like trauma's embodied, right? And so you can't just remove the physical threat and have safety in the church.

So just because the the harmful church faction or the harmful church leader has been removed, doesn't mean the people remaining aren't still like carrying themselves in this position of like on guard and in threat. Yeah. And so there are ways to help kind of bring people's sense of calm back to restore them to a place of safety.

You know, this can be done in whole congregation gatherings. Teaching things like centering prayer and breathing exercises that can help people feel safe together. Doing things like figuring out is there, are there hymns or choruses that this congregation really connects with? How can we sing those a lot?

Like how do we, how do we lean into moments in our liturgy that are al already have some kind of healing component for the congregation and how can we lean into those places? So there are lots of different strategies that pastors can use, but mostly what it is, is it's okay noting where there seems to be a level of either hyper or

hyper arousal where people are getting like really defensive or really like overreacting or where there seems to be a level of underreacting and so like where the congregation kind of seems numb. Yeah. And stepping into those places to really bring some shepherding care and bringing back safety, bringing back a sense of trust and tending to those relationship places before you try any new program or any new mission adventure.

Like anything, you just focus on those, creating that safety and trust in the context of the relationships. 

Christie: I could see how patience and humility would probably have to be two things you'd want to have as an after pastor for sure. 

Kayleigh: Yes. 

Christie: To even start with. 

Kayleigh: Okay. Yeah. Yep. Oh, wow.

Christie: So sometimes

It's not just unhealthy leaders or systems that wound people. Can theology contribute to spiritual trauma, for example, when it protects, abusers from demanding submission. Pressuring forgiveness, shaming emotions, or framing. We hear this one quite a bit. Framing harm as a moral failure. What are your thoughts on this? 

Kayleigh: Yeah. theology is so important. 

Christie: Absolutely. 

Kayleigh: The stories we tell shape us. I, uh, I, I really believe that the stories we tell are the stories that we embody. They're the stories that shape our behaviors, our values, our actions, and theology is central to the stories that shape us.

I don't remember who it is right now. I. So I'm gonna quote somebody and I want to attribute it to them, but I know that somebody says that "the most important thing about us is what we think about God or what we think about God is the most important thing about us". it's A.W. Tozer.

A. W. Tozer says that what we think about God is what is most important about us. And I think the reason for that is what we think about God. And I would add how we hear the voice of God and how we share the voice of God is the most  important thing about our churches. Because it will shape how they engage with the world. Yeah. And so, yes, there are some really harmful theologies that can hin even hinder, a congregation's ability to heal.

And so I know I was reading, a while ago, I read Laura Anderson's book "When Religion Hurts You" and in it she, she has an example of how she really struggled with the teaching of sanctification and how for her sanctification, she came to a place in her healing journey from religious trauma where she decided healing and sanctification were nothing alike.

And I am a Wesleyan Holiness girl. And so I, I'm sitting here going, huh, you gotta get rid of sanctification. I don't know if I can get rid of sanctification. But as I was reading her experience, it was very clear that she came from a very different religious tradition than I did, where the way in which she was taught about sanctification, I could see where that would feel nothing like healing, you know, where it was very, heaven-oriented, very, dispensationalism.

So like. The life we live here doesn't matter as much. 'cause it's all about getting to heaven. And that dispensationalist teaching can be really harmful, right? Mm-hmm. Because then that, that means that the feelings don't matter, like some of the things that you said, like, and so we can just ignore relationships here on earth.

Like that kind of stuff doesn't need to apply. 'cause it's all about just getting to heaven, right? Yeah. Yeah. Now that is not how I was taught about sanctification. Yes, and like, again, very rooted in the teachings of John Wesley. It's not how John Wesley taught about sanctification at all either. 

And. But if we don't do like these deep dives into our doctrine, into the things that we're teaching, and if we as pastors, I think this is where pastors have a huge role to play. And I tell this to pastors when I'm training them in trauma-informed ministry, I, I remind them over and over again that they are shaping the way in which their congregation will hear the voice of God.

And so we have to ask ourselves, when we preach, when we teach, when we share doctrine, how are we forming and shaping their perception of who God is? And so, I mean, it changes everything. It changes how you read stories. You know, I, I think a lot about, the story of Adam and Eve and the, you know, the fall and that interaction between God and Adam and Eve, where God comes into the garden and he says, you know, where are you?

And. And he says to add, he says to eve, you know, what is this that you've done? And there are two ways that you can read that story. Yeah, yeah. You can read it as this, like, God coming into the garden, Hey, where are you and what have you done? Like, you can, you can put frustration in it, you can put anger in it, you can put wrath into it.

Or you can read it in a way that I believe reflects the character of God. And this incarnational always seeking, always pursuing his children. That's like, Hey, where, where are you? You know, and what, what is this that you have done? Like, like the way that I would speak to my toddler, you know, if I find that he's colored on the floor, you know, in my, in my healthy mom moments, yes.

I'm not gonna come in and be like, what did you do? I'm gonna be come in and be like, oh. What if we done like recognizing, oh shoot, I've never had to tell you not to color on the floor, but I remember the first time he ever colored on the wall and thank the Lord. There was like this moment of Holy Spirit in me that was like, you've never told him he can't do that yet.

I was like, oh, shoot. 

Christie: Yes. And he's curious. 

Kayleigh: And he's curious. Yes. And even in the moments where Adam and Eve had been told, Hey, don't eat from that. Even in those moments where they, we know like, God still comes to us out of this like loving desire to draw us back. Yeah. And we can tell these biblical stories from a lens that reflect a God who is always calling us to come back to a God who always approaches us first.

Uh, or we can tell biblical stories in a way that create this. This stark division, this, this idea, this thing that completely forgets the incarnation, right? Because it's left God up in heaven somewhere that he's super far away and it's forgotten that he always comes close. And so all of our theology matters and all of the way that we sha share theology, all the way that we teach about theology matters mm-hmm.

In either perpetuating harm or creating a pathway to healing. Okay. 

Christie: Centers around the character of God. 

Kayleigh: Yeah. 

Christie: so you're, you're wanting your church to heal, but they're struggling to do so. You've said that churches often have a diagnostic problem to accurately recognize their own wounds and they often default to protecting the institution.

How can leaders balance the need for structure with the need to genuinely care for people who've been hurt? 

Kayleigh: Yeah, so. I do think the church has a diagnostic problem. Mm-hmm. And I mentioned that a little bit earlier, where I said that a lot of these smaller churches are just kind of labeled in need of revitalization.

And I think what would, what helps in is that there is still structure, there is still a way to diagnose a church in a structured way, but the starting place is different. And so I would say that for a lot of our diagnosing of a lack of health in church. So your church is struggling. Usually the way in which pastors, church leaders, church consultants, whoever it is, who's coming in to help do the healing work congregations do, usually they say, okay, what are we doing?

And primarily, what are we doing wrong? Like, why are we, why are we not as healthy as we want to be? You know, what, what are we doing? And the emphasis becomes on behaviors. And so I invite pastors to start from a different starting place and it's really, it's a trauma informed starting place of, instead of saying, okay, what are you doing?

We ask the question, what has been done to you?  So what has been done to you?  And maybe a follow up question of what are you carrying? Yeah. And. I will say that answering what are you doing is a lot quicker. We can sit down in a room together, we can come up with a list of programs, we can come up with a list of conflicts, we can come up with a list of behaviors.

We can come up with a list of values. Yeah. Very quickly. And we can probably do that with like a core leadership team in the room and that's it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so usually that's the way that churches tend to go to try to figure out how to  bring greater health, because it seems faster, it involves a smaller group of people.

You can kind of do it in one meeting. When you start to ask the question, what happened to you? And the follow up question of, you know, what are you carrying? This takes a lot longer.  You're not gonna just sit there and come up with a list. Now you may be able to come up with a list of like some key events that happened.

There's probably gonna be events people aren't ready to say out loud yet, and it's those events that are probably the most impactful. And so you have to give time and space for being able to share those in different ways. And then getting really into the nitty gritty of, okay, so this is what's happened to you and now what are you carrying?

This takes so much time and so much patience and a lot of, you know, trauma informed wisdom and. Yeah, I don't know that pastors are always given or trained in, and it requires more than just your core team.  Right. So you can't do this at a board meeting. You can start it at a board meeting.

Yeah. You can do it in, you can do it with a staff or with a board first. But to really know what the congregation is carrying.  This has to involve as much of the congregation as are willing to participate. Okay. And so that makes it a little bit more daunting, especially if the congregation is suffering, especially if there is a underlying sense of tension.

You know, then we start to get to those places where it's, it's more difficult to move through. But I would encourage those who are wondering, you know, like how do we still maintain like structure and care? Like there is structure here. The structure is just rooted in compassionate curiosity.

You're not coming at the people to try to correct their behaviors. You're coming at the congregation from a place of wondering what is really going on so that you can bring an accurate treatment plan. And so there's patience required, there's compassion required, and there's this sense of just curious wonder required.

It's like, okay, so what is, what is going on? What is God doing here? So it is structured. Yeah. It's just not quick. 

Christie: Yeah. And we always want a quick fix, right? 

Kayleigh: Yes. Yes. 

Christie: So you've used the word, the terms revitalization and reformation mm-hmm. In past interviews as different, approaches to restoring the church.

Mm-hmm. Could you break down the difference between the two and share what that looks like in practice? 

Kayleigh: Sure. Yeah. So often, currently in the current like literature around mm-hmm. Church health, there's these two main paths to restoring health in a church that we see. And the first one that I think most people think of is that a revitalization.

And so church rev revitalization  is not a new topic. People have been talking about it, writing about it for a very long time. And this is usually applied to churches that are smaller or declining in number or aging, right? . And so it's an older congregation that doesn't have a lot of young families or youth in it.

And so there's kind of this idea like, well, if we all keep aging, eventually there won't be a congregation left. And so in these declining in number or aging congregations, there's often this language of revitalization that needs to happen. And this is, like I just said, this is a very behavior-focused Method of healing. Mm-hmm. And so there's, several books that offer lists of lists of characteristics or behaviors or values in these declining or dying churches. And with strategies to change those things mm-hmm. And to fix those things and to amend those behaviors. One very popular book is, is Tom Rainer's "Autopsy of a Deceased Church."

And he gives these different reasons why churches die. They they're not wrong, like he identifies real behaviors. The question will all still remains though. Like why? So one of his indicators that's relatable to our conversation today, one of his indicators that a church will probably die is if they go through pastors quickly.

Like they can't hold to a pastor. This is a sign of a dying congregation. So I read that and I went, so why?  So why do they go through pastors quickly? Why are they not holding onto their pastors? And I read that having already read all the research on after pastors, having already read the research on what happens when harmful, like when clergy abuse goes uncared for in a congregation.

Yeah. Yeah. Knowing all of that, I now read this statement and I see it differently.  And I go, so if I see a congregation that keeps going through pastors, my  trauma informed knowledge tells me something probably went down with a pastor that's never been dealt with, but that's not included in these revitalization approaches to healing.

They, they're very focused on changing and amending the behavior. Now, the other issue with revitalization is that can only be applied to one type of church, and that's declining or aging. And we all know that small churches are not the only churches that need health, Right?. That just because your church is big does not mean your church is healthy.

But a pastor of a large church would never dream of taking these revitalization books or methods and applying them to his or her large church. Right. Because we don't need that. And so that's where the Reformation approach, which I'm very thankful for, 'cause we needed it, is coming from, and that comes a lot out of Scott McKnight and Laura Barringer's work with "The Church Called Tov"

They're starting to really focus on like the cultural issues. You know, the systemic, toxic cultures that can be in these little churches, big churches, medium churches, whatever size your church is. You could have some really toxic cultures. I will say that while this gets us a little bit closer, it still doesn't ask the deeper, deeper question of, okay, but why?

Yeah. Like, so you have this toxic culture. Why, why? So in their book "Pivot", which is excellent, you know, Laura Barringer and Scott McKnight will write about the culture as the roots. And so I would say there's act, there often is actually something even deeper. So they'll talk about the culture as the roots that defines the fruit in the tree, and sometimes those roots are there because of trauma that's been left unhealed.

 And so that's the piece that's really been missing in this conversation around church health, is that we have these two more behavior centric approaches that want to fix a list of behaviors or a list of list of culture traits. But Resmaa Menakem in his book, "My Grandmother's Hands" says that "unhealed trauma will emerge as culture, but it's not culture".

It's trauma. And that is what I think is happening in a lot of our churches with these toxic cultures, is that it, unprocessed, unhealed religious trauma. That's giving birth to just toxic culture. Yeah. And so that's where, in the book I'm writing, I propose a third diagnosis, and that would be this diagnosis of restoration that perhaps these churches are hurting and perhaps these churches are struggling with a lack of health, a lack of flourishing because of unhealed collective trauma.

Wow, that's so profound. Um, you know, and, and you're saying that, you know, revitalization is important and so is reformation, but like, if you don't get to the heart of something, it's, or the root of something, as you said. It's not gonna heal. Yeah. These two diagnoses have helped the church.

They've been very beneficial. Yes. And they'll continue to help the church. Yes. And not every church needs, not every unhealthy church has unhealed collective trauma. Correct. But I think that there are several churches who are in that place of, yeah. Trying this diagnosis or trying this and just coming up short and maybe even feeling bad that they keep coming up short, you know?

Feeling a lot of shame after, you know, why, why don't these things work for us? Or why do they work for a short amount of time? And then we're back to where we were. Yeah. And I would say that's where we just need this third diagnosis. Not to replace revitalization or reformation, but to continue to give more, more understanding and more language to what's happening in our churches.

Christie: That's awesome. And I will speak to what you are writing later. Um, 'cause I want to get to that too. That's very important. it, uh, a couple questions, that are similar that I want to ask together.

If seminaries were training pastors for trauma-informed ministry. Mm-hmm. What would you suggest be added or changed to the curriculum?

And if you were to rewrite a church's leadership handbook, through a trauma-informed lens, what changes would you make there? 

Is that too full of a question? 

Kayleigh: No, it's good. It's, it's full, it's a full question. 

Christie: Oh. You can answer whatever you'd like, 

Kayleigh: but, well, I'll start, I'll start with the seminary piece.

Yeah. I mean, I was fortunate in that my, my MDiv, so I have a Bachelors in Psychology and then I have a Masters in Divinity. And my MDiv did include a, a course on violence against women.  Now it was an elective, so not everybody took it, and I did. But it was at least offered and I got a very trauma informed look at violence against women and the church's response to it, that forever shaped how I operated in a space of ministry. 

Christie: Especially as a female clergy 

Kayleigh: Especially as female. Yes. Especially as female pastor. Yes. No, I will say that those classes are not offered at every seminary. And again, if they are offered, they're usually elective.

Right. So not everybody has, they're not part of the core coursework. I would say it is essential that pastors have a, at least an intro level course into just trauma informed ministry. So, most. Most counselors, most first responders, they're going to have some kind of trauma informed training. And we need to recognize that our pastors are often wearing both of those hats.

Yeah. And so a lot of pastors will get some kind of like pastoral counseling class. And that usually is required. But I think an additional trauma-informed ministry  course, I mean, 75% of the world's population has experienced trauma. So if 75% of your congregants have experienced trauma, and we know research has shown that the majority of people seek spiritual care when going through some kind of traumatic event, which means that people are usually walking into your church for the first time because something went wrong.

Yeah, right. And so I think equipping pastors with some kind of trauma at the very baseline, just a baseline trauma-informed ministry course. Would be really, and that can be offered through seminaries, um mm-hmm. That can be offered through continuing education credits that denominations might offer.

There are many ways to get pastors that kind of training. Um, but I think it's essential that it's done. I agree to the church leadership handbook, question a maybe having one I think.  Okay. I think I worked in a lot of spaces where those didn't even exist. Oh, wow. wow. But yeah, I mean, it's, the church is, the church can be a funny place when it comes to like, structure.

Right. We can be over structured and have policies that, you know, do too many things and then we can be very under structured and just mm-hmm. Not have any form of policy or whatever. Yeah. But as far as a kind of leadership handbook, I would really want to, maybe I'll say this, maybe I'll call it a pastoral handbook.

So in a pastoral handbook, I would want to help pastors understand when to put on their shepherding. So they're always a shepherd, right? But if we, if we look at, the fivefold language from Ephesians, so the apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher, right? So all our spiritual gifts we find in church leaders all have merit and are important.

Yeah.  I would encourage churches that can have more than one pastor on staff, which is the minority of churches in America. 'cause most churches have like one. But if you can, to not have only strongly apostle gifted people or only strongly evangelistic gifted people. , If your staff is missing somebody who is strongest in shepherding, yeah, the congregation is really gonna suffer.

If you're missing somebody who is highest in prophetic meeting, you're gonna have a lot of blind spots in your ministry because you need somebody who has those eyes that see things differently than everybody else does. So if you have a multi staff asking yourself, like, are we insuring that we have, our shepherd and our prophet with us?

And do they have a voice? Because listen, your apostles and your evangelists are loud. It's, it's, and it's good. They should be loud. Like that's how they're gifted. Like, but they can be too loud and they can silence the prophet and the shepherd. Mm. And so asking does the prophet and does the shepherd have a voice?

Yeah. And so I don't know how you write that into a leadership handbook. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but I think, and then if you're a single pastor church, which is the majority of congregations in America are gonna be your one solo pastor, maybe even a bivocational pastor to be honest. How can you ensure that in moments of conflict, in moments of suffering, in moments of pain, you are leading from a, a shepherding place.

Yeah. You are leading from that kind of prophetic shepherding place. Yeah. Because I, and even if that's not where your strongest giftings lie, maybe that means that you need to make sure that you have somebody on call who you know is more gifted than that, and you can call 'em and be like, Hey, my church is walking through this conflict.

The apostle in me, wants to just be like. We got work to do. Y'all need to move on? Yeah. Please help me know how to shepherd them well through that. Yeah. And having that self-awareness to know like that, that's going to be your gut reaction. Like, okay, these people still want me to talk about the color of the pew.

Why are we still calling? Talking about the color of the pew. Yes. And calling up your shepherd friend and being like, can you please, can you give me some like, curiosity questions that I can ask? Can you, you know, how should I walk with them through this? What are the things, what are calling up a prophetic friend?

Hey, what are the things that I should be listening for? What are the things that I should be like watching for? That's, so that's kind of what I would say is I would lean into the, the prophetic and the shepherding in moments of conflict and suffering. And if that's not your stronghold strong suit.

Yeah. Surrounding yourself with people who it is. 

Christie: Yeah. Because listening is so powerful. 

Kayleigh: Yes, yes. 

Christie: An active listener. Yeah. 

Kayleigh: Mm-hmm. 

Christie: so I wanted to get to the heart of your work at Restor(y). So I had a few specific questions. , Collective trauma often silences the voices in the pews and makes people feel invisible and lonely in their church community.

How does Restor(y) use narrative therapy to empower survivors to rewrite their faith stories and be truly heard? 

Kayleigh: Hmm. So for Restor(y) we're a little unique in that we're not working with individuals. 

Christie: Okay. 

Kayleigh: So we always work in the ti unless we're coaching pastors. So the only time we work with individuals is when we're coaching pastors or church leaders in how to do this in their congregations.

Okay. For the most part, we're doing this work with communities and so we're actually in, we're trying to push back against that isolation, that is felt because when we're talking about collective trauma, and I, I really think that most religious trauma is probably collective because religious trauma is any trauma that happens in the context of a religious community.

And so therefore you probably have some level of communal trauma that's happening. And so when we approach collective religious trauma, we're doing so with a community and we're inviting people out of that isolation. And so we do so through creating safety first. 'cause we can't do any narrative work until people feel safe with one another.

Yeah. Until people have that sense of. Calm, reinstituted in their bodies. And then we're inviting a lot of lamenting work. And so we start there. We start with, a process of lamenting and grieving and giving space to name what's been lost, what's been taken, what's been harmed. And we connect that really to the, to both the trauma, theory of testimony as well as the Christian understanding of testimony.

And just invite congregations into a place of being able to share, what we call  middle space testimonies. And so, Shelly Rambo, who's a trauma-informed theologian. It talks about Holy Saturday is this middle space between the crucifixion and resurrection, and reminds readers that, you know, the disciples didn't know that Easter Sunday was coming.

And so often in our congregations, testimonies are reserved for like, they're Easter Sunday testimonies. Every testimony's gotta have a bow on it, right? Like 

Christie: Right, right. 

Kayleigh: Well my ankle broke, but now it's healed. They're, yes. And so what we invite congregations into, and this is really the narrative work that we lean, lean into, is being able to share, middle space testimonies.

So testimonies that don't have a bow on them yet. Testimonies of suffering that's still there. Testimonies of hardships that's still being walked through. And what's healing about testimonies is both that they're said, but not just that they're said in order for a testimony to be healing according to trauma research, there has to be an empathetic witness there.

 And so we help congregations learn how to both be the ones bearing testimony and also how to be the ones who are bearing witness to the stories being shared. And the more that people, congregations are able to do that are able to give voice to the pain, voice to what was lost, and then hold that for each other, then you can start to get to the restoring work, which is beginning to work together to then say, okay, what do we want our story to be on the other side of trauma?

It's not gonna be what it was.  What do we want it to be now? And, and can we discover that together? And we call that, um, prophetic Imagining. A Prophetic Reimagining. 

Christie: Okay. Okay. Well that's, that's, that's awesome. I, there was definitely that moment as restore conference in Phoenix where they had that moment of lament.

Mm-hmm. I don't know if you were there when that happened, but that was pretty profound. And lament is not something that we necessarily think is important because it's, feels sad. Mm-hmm. But it's part of the healing process is 

Kayleigh: Oh, for sure 

Christie: what you're saying.  Important part. So when religious trauma.

Touches the whole church. How can sacred stories and scripture help people make sense of their experiences and find collective healing? 

Kayleigh: Yeah. Oh, scripture is, is such a gift for that.  Sometimes you do have to redeem it. And so we've talked about this a little bit before. Sometimes scripture has been used to harm people.

Yeah. And so you can't expect people to feel safe with it. Right. Again. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so, but once you have restored the voice of God to a healing, caring, mm-hmm. Compassionate, incarnate voice. Yeah. Then you can begin to invite people into scripture in a way that demonstrates that, I mean, scripture is a treasure trove of trauma stories.

Christie: Mm-hmm. 

Kayleigh: And the more you can read scripture from the eye of the sufferer. And see the ways in which God is present, I think can bring so much healing. And I mean, there's so many stories of, you know, there's the, the woman with the issue of bleeding, you know, it's 12 years of bleeding and isolation from society and inability to have children and, you know, all of these things that we don't necessarily think about right away when we hear she was bleeding for 12 years.

But there's so many layers to what that story really holds. And I think when pastors and congregations can begin to have kind of this eye for, and, and to be able to see the sufferer in this, in the pages of scripture and then, and watch and see how God responds. And so it's a call to pastors, to, to preach these stories and these texts that maybe get overlooked.

Um, you know, a lot of really good work has been done with the story of Hagar. That's one that's really profound and has a lot of mm-hmm. It has a lot to say about religious trauma and spiritual abuse because mm-hmm. Her abusers were, had spiritual power over her. And it's, it's really interesting to watch God kind of find God's self in between, like these two hard place.

Like, yes, he sends her back and there's, you know, there's a lot of us that wanna read that and go, what do you mean you can't send her? Like, yes. And God's like, well if you, if I don't send her back, she's gonna die. Like, I mean, she's, because what's interesting, if you watch her, she comes, she's sent away again, but this time Ishmael is a boy.

And so this time God doesn't send her back. Right. But now she's not a pregnant, helpless woman in the middle of the desert.  Now she has a son. Now she has a way to make it in life, you know, and so there is an ability for her to leave. , And so I think. That helps us understand the complexity.

I mean, you read a story like that and you see how complex these mm-hmm, mm-hmm. These moments of abuse are, and it can give hope to survivors like that their, their story's not too messy or their story. Because like every story we see about it in scripture has this complexity to it and invites us to wrestle with how would we respond?

How is God responding? Where is there healing and hope and deliverance here. Yeah. But I think we, we can't shy away from these stories. Yeah. 'cause the more we sit with them, the more we encounter really the restorative heart of God and what he's doing. 

Christie: Absolutely. Yeah. I remember reading the, story of Leah and Yeah.

She, she had when she was rejected. Yeah. Yeah. I remember just intentionally trying to feel what she might've felt. 

Kayleigh: Mm-hmm. 

Christie: Yeah. So that's, yeah, absolutely. That's profound. So thank you for Sharing that. There are many churches, out there where the collective trauma is multi-generational. 

How does the church start healing from past wounds and what signs show that the repair is authentic and not just cosmetic? 

Kayleigh: Yeah. So to start, they have to be willing to ask those questions, right? You know, okay, so what, what happened? Do they have to understand their history? What are the things that happened to us?

And, and how might we still be carrying this? And how might this still be informing our values mm-hmm. And our behaviors and our culture and our relationships with one another and our relationships with the world around us. And, and so it takes a lot of curiosity, it takes a lot of question asking, and then it takes a lot of willingness to begin to name those things, right?

Yeah. To begin to speak of moments that maybe were really painful. It takes a lot of compassion for one another, right? Because congregations are so, diverse in their experiences of congregational life, right? And so you have the person who's been with the church for 70 years and they've never missed a Sunday.

And you have somebody who just started attending, you know, two weeks ago. And so they don't have any of the background, and yet they're all trying to live out this same communal story. And so you have this newer person who doesn't understand why there is. The example I often give to pastors is like, you don't why there's such like this emotional connection to like a pulpit.

Or like some piece of furniture.  And often, historically, the way that pastors have talked about these things is like labeling those, the congregation's golden calf or they're the congregation's, like idolization of the past. And so there's this sin language that's used This idol language that's used that can carry with it a layer of shame.

Right. And so it separates, the people who don't care as much about this thing or about the past to the people who are future oriented. They're not sinning. And the people who, the people who have this deep affection for this pulpit or who are always talking about the good old days, well they're, they just have an idol.

And so then you have the right and the wrong. And so there's this division that's created. You're never gonna get healing when there's division. And so if you have some compassion towards one another, some curiosity for one another. Yeah. And maybe you can start to unpack these stories that shape a congregation's particular affinity for a pulpit or a particular desire to go back.

And you can do that in a way where, and then maybe you discover a story about some patriarch that built the pulpit and, you know, he died tragically and the pulpit was the only thing left. And like you start to like, peel back the layers. And then with, you know, idolizing the past, you can. You can help honor the pa, you can honor the past and recognize what it is people are really longing for.

Because a lot, a lot of times when they're talking about the past and the glory days and all of those things, they're usually mentioning some kind of consistent theme, whether it be like a lot of young people were involved or there was a deep devotion to prayer or, you know, a deep disciple, a discipleship ministry that was really, you know, life giving.

And so you can focus on those things and honor those things and say, okay, we wanna carry that art with us into the future. Like, that's still good and healthy. Mm-hmm. And so I think, for a congregation that's healing from this intergenerational historical trauma. A couple things that the first thing they need to do is they just need to get curious with themselves.

 And figure out, okay, what's the story that we're carrying? Why are we carrying it? What's going on here? And then they need to have compassion for the multiplicity of experiences that are within that congregation. Yeah. And not try to name one right or wrong. Yes. And not try to like condemn a faction that like really loves the pulpit.

But just invite more of those stories to come out. And as they have kind of that compassionate curiosity with one another, then like this bigger story comes out and then you can lean into, okay, but who do we really want to be? Okay. And how do we move into that new story? 

Christie: Okay. Okay. 

So this question is personal to me, and I'm sure it will hit home with others, to others as well.

When a church faces spiritual harm, how can leaders listen to people's stories with care and curiosity? Acknowledge people's raw and painful experiences without judgment, retaliation, or break the congregation's trust. 

Kayleigh: Listen. Hmm. So not to, not to make this way too simple, but that's profound. All of the like qualifiers that you gave Tell me the person isn't listening at all. Yeah. You know, if you get defensive or if you get judgmental or if you, feel the need to shut it down, or if there's a breakage of trust. So now all of a sudden you're like, sharing this somewhere. Yeah. Then you, you were never really listening.  You were, you know.

It's, it's active. I mean, active listening, right. Active listening. Yeah. If I'm having a conversation with you and all I'm thinking about is how I want to respond to what you're saying, then a, I'm not really hearing what you're saying. Because I'm making it about what I'm going to say, or, and I think this is probably, I've been, I know I've been guilty of this.

Like, if, you know somebody wants to come meet with you and you know it's not gonna be about something great, you may pre-plan. Yeah. You may be like, okay, let me make sure that I have a book to recommend or a solution to offer or, and I think pastors, we have to remember to listen to our people and to have that, that attending Right.

That careful relational attention for them. You know, they're, they're not coming to us as problems to be solved. They're not coming to us as things that need to be fixed, you know, and we don't have to have all the answers. And so, and it's not like. Like don't be, how do I say this? Don't be as, don't be quickly offended.

Right. And so you may have hurt somebody. We're pastors are people too. Yeah. You're gonna hurt somebody. Yeah. Intentionally, unintentionally something you do. A decision you make, a sermon you preach, a way you say something,you're gonna hurt somebody. Yeah. Actually, you're probably gonna hurt somebody by not doing something too, as much as the way you hurt somebody by doing something.

I think a lot of pastors find that they

hurt somebody had no idea that they did simply because they forgot to call on surgery day or, you know, they let, they dropped the ball in some way. Yeah. And allow, be able to say, I'm sorry. Yeah. And don't have to give your apology a clarification. Don't have to like, make

excuses for it.

I'm sorry. You know, if you hurt somebody, you hurt somebody whether you meant to or not. And so, I'm so sorry I hurt you. Yeah. Done. And listen. Yeah, listen and willing to so profound apologize. Yeah. Yeah. 

Christie: Kayleigh I am so grateful for your work. I just love that you're in this space. You have an obvious passion and compassion towards the church and for others that's evident in the work you do at Restor(y) And as a respected member of the clergy.

Where can people go to learn more about Restor(y) and get involved with your resources? 

Kayleigh: Sure. So they can go to restorycenter.com is where you can find anything and everything. You can follow us on social media. I admittedly am not the most active participant in social media. Um, you can find us there.

You can follow us at RestoryCenter on Facebook or Instagram. And then yeah, at restorycenter.com 

Christie: Okay. And, and, I heard this a little bit earlier, but I hear your publishing, your research or something along the lines, 

Kayleigh: I hope to. Wonderful. So I'm finishing my dissertation. Wonderful. It should be done, by the end of the calendar year here.

And then, Lord willing, I'll figure out a way to publish it. 

Christie: Okay. And if so, how can people find out more about it? 

Kayleigh: I am gonna figure that out. Okay. Awesome. Stay tuned. I, I'm very new to this world. I set out to write a dissertation, but I thankfully there's flexibility in my program that I can write it in a more book friendly style.

And so trying to navigate what that looks like. 

Christie: So would that information possibly on be on your Restor(y) website or something other than that? 

Kayleigh: It's not right now. No, it is not. Because it's not, 

Christie: I mean, in the future, 

Kayleigh: not completed. Oh, in the future. Future probably, yes. Yeah. In the future, yes.  

Christie: Okay. Awesome. I personally look forward to reading that because I think, I think your work is both timely and incredibly important to people, not only a personal level, but as it to the church as a whole.

Kayleigh: Thank you. 

Christie: Thank you for sharing such valuable information with the Soul Bruises listeners today, and for your generous and passionate conviction toward healing and restoration to the body of Christ.

Before you go, I had one last question. Awesome. Yeah. After all your work helping churches navigate collective trauma, what's been the one piece of what would be one piece of wisdom you'd want every listener, whether they're a pastor, a church member, or a survivor to take away from today?

Kayleigh: The church is worth it. Mm. You know, and just keep loving the bride of Christ. And there, there is healing and God's already doing it. So when we step into this space, we're simply joining what God is doing. We don't need to strive to do it all. We don't need everybody to listen to us. We just need to trust that we're joining the work that is very close to the heart of God and so he will be faithful to do it. 

Christie: Amen. Wow. 

For those wanting to learn more about Restor(y) connect with Kayleigh or explore her research, I will include all these resources in the show notes of this episode.

Thank you so much, Kayleigh for sharing your precious time with us today. It's been an absolute privilege having you on the Soul Bruises podcast. I know our listeners be walking away, encouraged, challenged, and inspired. So thank you. I pray our paths cross again in the future. And until then, may God bless  you, your family, and your work at Restor(y)

Kayleigh: Thank you so much. 

Christie: Yeah, thank you.

 I hope you enjoyed that episode with Kayleigh Clark. I really appreciate her level of honesty about the subject as well as her desire to make the necessary changes for healing and to know that it's going to take time and patience and perseverance. And, I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Please check out her website at restorycenter.com and I'll have other links in the show notes, so please check those out as well.

Stay tuned for the next episode of Soul Bruises. Thank you for joining today and always remember to 

Be Human, Be Kind, Be Both.