Episode 24 - Interview with Artist & Author David Hayward (The Naked Pastor) - Capturing Truth in a Single Frame

FYI: THIS EPISODE CONTAINS A SMALL SECTION OF EXPLICIT CONTENT IN REGARDS TO SEXUAL ABUSE.

*FOR VIEWING PODCAST - YOUTUBE VIDEO LINK
(Advantages: Artwork is shown when it is being described)
https://youtu.be/Etc_Gxr-6IQ

DAVID'S WEBSITES
www.nakedpastor.com
His main site where you can find his cartoons and his blog

www.thelastingsupper.com
His online community 

DAVID'S BOOKS
Adult books: Questions are the Answer, The Liberation of Sophia, Til Doubt Do Us Part, Money is Spiritual, The Art of Coming Out, The Lasting Supper - Letters for Deconstruction, Without a Vision My People Prosper

Children's book: The Rainbow Sheep

Cartoon books: Flip It Like This & Naked Pastor 101

DAVID'S SOCIAL MEDIA
Look for "Naked Pastor" on Instagram

DESCRIPTION OF PODCAST
A single frame can say what a thousand sermons won’t. That’s the power David “Naked Pastor” Hayward brings to the table as we explore spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and the radical courage it takes to tell the truth with humor and heart. David shares how a decades‑long journey from pulpit to pen sharpened his eye for systems that control, how cartoons validate the wounded at a glance, and why critiques of the church are not betrayal but care for the community it could be.

We trace the invisible contours of harm—sermons turned into weapons, authority used to silence, group pressure passed off as discipleship—and talk about the moment survivors realize their “soul bruises” are real. David walks us through the images that resonated worldwide: Sophia’s scarred spirit, Jesus erasing the lines we draw, and the gut-punch panel where leaders say, “It’s not that we don’t believe you. It’s that we don’t care.” Humor becomes a scalpel, not a sledgehammer, opening space for reflection without letting power off the hook. He also pulls back the curtain on his process, from sensitivity checks with diverse friends to the ongoing work of unlearning bias.

We dig into why systems drift toward dehumanization, how denial and silence protect brands over bodies, and what it takes to rebuild a life after leaving a toxic church. David’s answer is both practical and hopeful: cultivate spiritual independence while choosing interdependence, seek communities that honor dignity without control, and keep curiosity alive. He founded The Lasting Supper as a safe, diverse space for people rethinking faith to be fully seen without a new gatekeeper. If you’ve wondered whether you’re allowed to name what happened, or you’re searching for belonging without surrendering your agency, this conversation meets you where you are.

If the episode speaks to you, share it with someone who needs language for their pain, subscribe for more soul-honest conversations, and leave a review so others can find the show. Your voice helps build healthier, more compassionate communities.

"Be Human,  Be Kind,  Be Both."

Transcript

DAVID'S WEBSITES

www.nakedpastor.com His main site where you can find his cartoons and his blog

www.thelastingsupper.com His online community 

DAVID'S BOOKS

Adult books: Questions are the Answer, The Liberation of Sophia, Til Doubt Do Us Part, Money is Spiritual, The Art of Coming Out, The Lasting Supper - Letters for Deconstruction, Without a Vision My People Prosper

Children's book: The Rainbow Sheep

Cartoon books: Flip It Like This & Naked Pastor 101

Transcript of my interview with David Hayward aka The Naked Pastor

Hello, my friends and fellow Soul Defenders. My name is Christie, and this is Soul Bruises, A podcast devoted to taking a closer look at spiritual abuse. 

If this is your first time listening, I'm so glad you're here. I'm grateful for those returning. Also, this podcast exists. To name, confront and address spiritual abuse out loud, and to learn more about what this spiritual abuse thing is all about.

Unfortunately, spiritual abuse will not disappear on its own eradicating It requires many consistent voices speaking up and refusing to tolerate or accept this harmful behavior in the name of God. This podcast is my personal contribution to that effort, and I'd love for you to join me on that. Whether you're raising awareness in your church, family, friend group, or online, your voice greatly matters.

Together we can create healthier, more honest communities of faith. This podcast will not shy away from hard conversations, and I know the topic of spiritual abuse can stir up strong emotions. Painful memories and even traumatic events, I cannot stress enough. Please prioritize your mental and emotional wellbeing.

If you need to turn off this podcast, do it. You're not alone. I'm here to support you. My guest today is someone whose work I've been following for some time now. He is artist and author, David Hayward.

BIO

David lives in St. John New Brunswick, Canada with his wife Lisa. They have three grown children. With a background in theology and years of experience in ministry. David now focuses on writing, art and storytelling. Through his cartoons, art books, and teaching, he inspires curiosity. Kindness and community.

He believes in the power of stories to encourage young readers to think for themselves, embrace their uniqueness, and treat others with love and respect. His work is filled with warmth. Humor, honesty, and a deep appreciation for the wonder of life. David Hayward's Art has resonated deeply with so many who've experienced spiritual abuse or religious trauma.

Through his cartoons, he reveals profound truths about power, pain, and harm done to those on the margins. With honesty and humor. His art strikes a chord. And much like the drawings of Far side in one of my personal favorites, family circus, his art says so much in a single frame. That's an incredible gift.

His work explores some controversial themes like questioning as a healthy part of faith. Women's role in the church, patriarchy, the church's use of power and functioning more like an empire. The treatment of the queer community, purity, culture, prosperity, gospel, spiritual abuse, and the supremacy of rightness.

He also highlights what it truly means to love your neighbor, find unity and walk the path of spiritual deconstruction.  Lastly, his work conveys the unconditional love of God and what that can look like in a spiritual environment. There is so much in his body of work we could spend hours exploring, but because Soul Bruises is a spiritual abuse podcast, that's where I'd like to focus the conversation on today.

However, I hope listeners will seek out his broader body of work, which speaks so beautifully to matters of faith. Doubt and what it means to be a compassionate human being.

So I hope you enjoy my conversation with David and invite you afterwards to check out his artwork, his books, and a community. He's formed. That you'll learn a bit more about in this episode. All of his resources will be laid out in the description section of the podcast episode. I hope you enjoy this.

PODCAST INTERVIEW

Christie Hodson: Welcome David Hayward to the Soul Bruises Podcast. I'm really looking forward to this conversation and I'm grateful that you're willing to meet with me and discuss your work as how it pertains to spiritual abuse.

David Hayward: Hmm. Thank you.

Christie Hodson: yeah.

David Hayward: Thank you for having me on your show.

Christie Hodson: Well, thank you for being here. Your name is David Hayward,

David Hayward: Yeah! (giggles)

Christie Hodson: But you're also known as "The Naked Pastor"

David Hayward: Yeah mostly.

Christie Hodson: Yes, yes.

David Hayward: Yeah.

Christie Hodson: For those who may not be familiar with your work, what is the story behind that name?

David Hayward: Yeah. So I was in the ministry. I was, you know, I was in the pastoral ministry for about 30 years, give or take, and I started a blog. And while I was in the ministry in about 2005 and there, that was at the height of the blogosphere. And there were a lot of pastors blogging. And I wanted mine to be unique.

I wanted it to stand out. And so what I wanted to do was, and this is kind of who I am anyway, I wanted to be just totally authentic and just be very real and honest and just to sort of bare my soul...

...online and really pull back the curtain on what really goes on in the life of a pastor and what really goes on in the life of a church.

You know, so I didn't want to just talk about all the victories and, the great coffee and donuts and the great sermons and worship music, and. Youth group and sermons all that. I also wanted them to, I wanted people to see into my struggles and the conflicts in the church and the terrible moments and terrible sermons and terrible things whatever.

So I was just thought, well, at the time, "Naked Chef", "Naked Archeologist", "Naked Truth" was all sort of hot at the time. So I thought "Naked Pastor" had a ring too. Now there's been many, many times. So, "Naked Pastor" basically is just me being really honest and open as a pastor. And there's been many, many times I've regretted having that name 'cause a lot of people leap to conclusions.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: As you can tell, I'm fully clothed.

Christie Hodson: Yes,

David Hayward: It's a totally a metaphor for just me being totally authentic on online. And even though I left the ministry in 2010, and the church in 2010, a lot of people convinced me to keep the name because a lot of people felt that I was sort of fulfilling the role as a pastor, but online...

Christie Hodson: Right.

David Hayward: ...Virtually So I kept it, and here we are.

Christie Hodson: That's, I appreciate that 'cause I appreciate your authenticity and it 

David Hayward: Thank you.

Christie Hodson: it shows through your art, when, you know, when speaking to you or hearing you talk on your, community there.

David Hayward: Right?

Christie Hodson: So your artwork is really honest and provocative

David Hayward: Mm-hmm.

Christie Hodson: regarding things like spiritual abuse and religious trauma.

David Hayward: Mm-hmm.

Christie Hodson: Some people are saying , "Finally, someone is being honest about this!" While some get defensive and see you as coming from a place of bitterness. How do you respond to these different reactions?

David Hayward: When somebody points out abuse and how they've been abused. There are several reactions to it, and one is, "Oh my goodness, I had no idea!"

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: and shock and un even unbelief,

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: Disbelief. I don't mean unbelief, I mean disbelief that they just can't believe that stuff like that is happening.

But I, I'm here to say I'm an eyewitness. 

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: I've been on the receiving end of that. Secondly, a lot of people are hyper protective of the church and feel that, you are smearing the bride of Christ.

Christie Hodson: Right, right.

David Hayward: Uh, and it's, it's inappropriate

It casts a shadow on the mission and witness of the church.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: And then another reaction is outrage, anger that I would dare talk about such things. 

Christie Hodson: Yeah. 

David Hayward: and that I am therefore I'm either biting the hand that feeds me or that I'm bitter and resentful and revengeful and all those things. There's all kinds of reactions. But the reason I keep doing it and talking about it is because I do care about the church.

Church was very, very, played in a very important role in my life, and it has a powerful potential for community. But my beef is I'd like it to be done in a healthy manner.

Christie Hodson: Yeah. Yeah.

David Hayward: And so for me, people who critique something care about it,

Christie Hodson: Yes.

David Hayward: most of the time anyway.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: Like, look at political cartoonists. A lot of them are critiquing something political.

I think it's because they care and that they would like to see things done right. You know? So that, that's why I keep doing it. It resonates with a lot of people and a lot of people realize, "Wow! Okay! It really did happen to me and I'm allowed to talk about it"

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: and, you know, share my story and not be kept silent about it.

So that, that's why I keep doing it. That's why I keep talking about it.

Christie Hodson: Okay. Well, and I appreciate you doing that 'cause it's, it's just powerful. It's really powerful.

David Hayward: Hmm.

Christie Hodson: So you used to preach theology, you said you were a pastor before,

David Hayward: Yeah.

Christie Hodson: and now you draw it,

David Hayward: Hmm.

Christie Hodson: whose pain feels bigger than language, what can a single image say that words simply can't?

David Hayward: Yeah, that was a, an interesting development. 'Cause when I did start the blog in the beginning, like I'd already been an artist I'd been painting and things like that. And I doodled, you know, growing up and would draw cartoony kind of things here and there. Even as a pastor or minister, if we had like a children's story, sometimes I would draw cartoons for the kids and everybody would laugh.

And I was realizing, "Gee,the adults out in the audience are having a lot more fun than even the kids are!", you know, like, so, I decided in, I think it was 2006, why don't I try to draw a cartoon to convey what I'm. Thinking or feeling. And so I challenged myself. I, I really like a good cartoon.

And, you know, I'd seen other cartoonists doing their work, and I figured, "Why don't I give it a shot"? You know, I'm an artist. I can draw. And let me see if I can pull this off. And I gave myself, I challenged myself to draw a cartoon every day until I ran outta ideas. And I thought I might last two weeks to a month.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: And so here I am,

20 years later, still drawing cartoons every day.

Christie Hodson: Wow!

David Hayward: It was interesting to watch because they say a picture's worth a thousand words. And I really think that's true. Like, I used to write long posts

And, and you know, I still do write, but I found that my cartoons have a way of.....

It's like super quick.

So you don't have to read a, you don't have to spend several minutes reading a thousand words. You,

Christie Hodson: Yes.

David Hayward: you see my cartoon and you get it in a split second.

Christie Hodson: Right, right.

David Hayward: And I love the speed and the power of that, the immediacy.

Christie Hodson: I saw one of your... I didn't know it was a recent one, and it was of Jesus on the cross, and he was saying to the person pounding the nails, "I'm not mad at you."

David Hayward: Mm-hmm.

Christie Hodson: "Oh, that's timely!"

And then I realized you just drew it recently about the recent happenings in Minneapolis.

David Hayward: Yeah. Renee Nicole Good. That those were like near her last words pretty much. And, uh, so I wanted to convey how, um....I almost wrote in the post.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: Another person's famous last words were, "Father forgive them for they know not what they're doing."

Christie Hodson: Mm.

David Hayward: I didn't wanna, I didn't want to communicate that we should be forgiving these ICE agents.

I didn't, because

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: am not in no position to

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: ask people to do that. But I wanted 

to like, I really do sort of take, Mother Teresa's view that in every face is the face of Christ,

Christie Hodson: Yes.

David Hayward: Metaphorically speaking, spiritually speaking. And so I wanted to somehow convey that through that incident.

And, yeah that one took off for sure.

Christie Hodson: Wow.

David Hayward: very popular.

Christie Hodson: And when you're doing your artwork, how many of them come quick and how many of them are painstakingly, like you're at the end of the day and you're like, I don't know

David Hayward: Yeah. Uh,

Christie Hodson: yeah,

David Hayward: There's no formula. There really isn't. If there was a formula, I'd be, I'd be rich. Uh, but I can't figure out what the formula is. I could spend hours and hours on a cartoon and really think I've got something when it'll just flop, you know?

Christie Hodson: yeah, yeah,

David Hayward: And then, you know, I'll draw like yesterday's cartoon.

I'm not mad at you. It took me maybe couple hours to draw that,

Christie Hodson: yeah,

David Hayward: and I had no idea how it was gonna do, and it went kind of viral, you know, and everybody's sharing it and,

Christie Hodson: yeah.

David Hayward: and so I have no way of figuring that out. So I just, I just draw what I want to draw. I try to do it with as much integrity and authenticity and honesty as possible.

Christie Hodson: yeah.

David Hayward: And, you know, it does take a bit of courage to post something like that. 'cause I know I'm gonna get kickback. But for me, just drawing what I wanna draw, saying what I wanna say is me being authentic and that's my number one task.

Christie Hodson: That's awesome. That's awesome. In, in Maine they call it You've got moxie.

David Hayward: Mmhmmm? Yeah.

Christie Hodson: do it. Yeah, yeah.

To, to do what you do.

Alright. In your artwork, Jesus is depicted as deeply compassionate, standing with people on the margins

David Hayward: mm-hmm.

Christie Hodson: and often challenging the version of Jesus that many of us were raised with. How do you balance humor, provocation of thought and reverence while conveying this bold vision of Jesus's character?

David Hayward: I have always been impressed with the stories of Jesus. So like right from the get go, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say whether or not you believe Jesus was a historical person or not. And there's a lot of debate around that. And, whether you believe that gospels are accurate, historical depictions of this person we call Jesus.

That's all. So for me, I'm getting inspired by the gospel writings, whether or not they're historically accurate or, or whatever. And so what I do when I, when you read between the lines, or not even between the lines, some of it's pretty blatant where, where it's obvious what got Jesus into trouble, not only with the religious people, but also the political people was he hung out with the inappropriate people.

He didn't hang out with the right crowd. And so. He, he was famously hanging out with,

tax collectors and "sinners",

which is in my opinion, a "social category". I'm not talking about "sinners" from a divine perspective. I'm talking about "sinners" from a social perspective,

Christie Hodson: Okay. Okay.

David Hayward: and that, so he was hanging out with

tax collectors, sinners,

prostitutes, sex workers, you know, and the poor,

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: the unclean, women, you know, talking to people from other cultures and, 

Christie Hodson: Yeah, yeah. 

David Hayward: so on.

And, and that was what was most upsetting was he was breaking down social categories and challenging the status quo. So that's what I tried to convey in my drawings is who Jesus hangs out with.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. 

David Hayward: And, that ought to be, in my opinion.

Uh, inspirational

Christie Hodson: Right,

David Hayward: to us. It, it should convey a lesson to us, you know?

But you know, instead, you know, I hear people saying, well, the reason he was hanging out with them was to get, convert them and get them to change from their evil ways. No, there's no indication of that.

Christie Hodson: Right?

David Hayward: We're reading into the text there, there's no indication, so when, when He would say the gospels record him as saying that those sinners or those sex workers will enter heaven before you or enter the kingdom of heaven before kingdom of God for you, he didn't say because they're converted.

Christie Hodson: Yes.

David Hayward: He just said they, they will enter the kingdom before you. And, so that, kind of a perspective of hanging out with, those who are marginalized and rejected,

Is to me, I think the most powerful value that Christianity can have.

Christie Hodson: Mm.

David Hayward: Also it seems to be where it's mostly failing right now.

Christie Hodson: Yeah. Yeah. I know one of my favorite, art of yours is the one where the men and women are drawing lines between each other,

David Hayward: Yeah.

Christie Hodson: Jesus is going behind and erasing them. So that

David Hayward: Yeah. I call that, I call that "Eraser" and it is one of my most popular top 10 cartoons for sure.

Christie Hodson: Awesome. Yeah.

David Hayward: And you know, that was inspired by a verse that says, there's no, therefore, now no dividing wall between us. And I thought, how can I convey that in a drawing? And that's what I came up with.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: Um, but people want those lines, is what I've discovered in my life.

And, they want division and separation and exclusion and, and all this kind of thing. And it seems to be becoming more and more explicit and it's concerning to me because it's seems to, to me, to fly right in the face of what the gospel's message was.

Christie Hodson: Mm mm Absolutely. Absolutely.

You had a, you have this collection of artwork, that features this character "Sophia".

One piece shows her bare back and another shares the same, back shows the same, back marked with visible scars.

David Hayward: Right.

Christie Hodson: The first frame is entitled "The Back of Sophia's Body", the second frame, "The Back of Sophia's Spirit." That really struck me because it echoed the concept of my podcast, "Soul Bruises". For those whose spiritual wounds often don't show up on the surface. What do you think gets carried in the soul in cases of spiritual harm?

David Hayward: Yeah, that one is, uh, to me a very meaningful cartoon because, we're learning more and more about mental illness,

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: and invisible illness,and disabilities and so on. I know a lot of people who struggle with invisible disabilities, like chronic illnesses or, you know, something or other.

I have many people in my life who struggle with mental illness and then I know a ton of people who have been deeply wounded spiritually, and they. It's not visible.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: And so I drew a picture of Sophia's back and it's just her back. And then, like you said the the back of Sophia's soul, and it's covered in scars, like she's been whipped.

And I know a lot of people who that's what it feels like. And me, I I've experienced very deep spiritual abuse,

Christie Hodson: Hmm.

David Hayward: that's had, you know, a very lasting effect. And that I have, I still have the scars from, and so the spiritual abuse, a lot of people, I hear from people, it's not a thing, it doesn't exist.

Christie Hodson: Right,

David Hayward: So you have physical abuse,

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: you have emotional abuse, you have economic abuse, verbal abuse.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: And what that means is. The person is using that tool to harm you. So they're using words to harm you. They're using money to harm you. They're using their body to harm you their fist, you know, or they're using, emotional torment to harm you.

Spiritual abuse as they're using spiritual things to harm you, such as spiritual authority, power, the Bible

Sermons,

"ought" and "must" and "should".,

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: know the community, peer pressure, all this kind of thing. It's spiritual abuse is when spiritual tools are used to harm you.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: And, I know a lot of people who to this day are suffering, just like anybody with physical abuse.

Or emotional abuse or, you know, whatever kind of abuse they've suffered, takes a long time for some people to recover from that if they ever do.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: You know, and I know people who would never, ever in their lives set foot in a church again

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: and go anywhere near a pastor and some nowhere near a Christian because of the spiritual abuse they've suffered at their hands.

You know? And I get it. I totally get it. You know, I, 'cause I've been there and I know what it's like and I know it's real.

Christie Hodson: I know with my podcast, sometimes I use scripture, but each

David Hayward: I

Christie Hodson: I use scripture I realize that I need to do some sort of disclaimer because scripture has been used as a hammer.

David Hayward: Oh yeah.

Christie Hodson: It's powerful, but it's been used powerfully negative and stuff too. Yeah. It's,

David Hayward: Oh totally. Even like Christian music.

Christie Hodson: Yes.

David Hayward: You know, some people, oh, it's so beautiful, but for some people it's, it's piercing their hearts again.

Christie Hodson: So in your blog post, exposing the reality of spiritual abuse in church, talked about how when churches say, well, that just doesn't happen here referring to spiritual abuse, it could mean a few things that it truly doesn't, that it's been normalized or that it's been reframed as discipline or authority. are these patterns so hard to recognize from inside the church community?

David Hayward: You know, it's an interesting phenomenon because, you know, I do, whenever I post something about spiritual abuse, inevitably. A pastor or somebody will come on and say, not at our church.

Christie Hodson: Mm.

David Hayward: And  I'm like, okay. That, that's my reaction. My first reaction is, I'm suspicious.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: Because I think, to be honest, I think a really humble person with any kind of self-awareness would not boast about being, a perfect church or boast about being above reproach or that they have never in any way attempted to control someone or manipulate someone.

Christie Hodson: Right.

David Hayward: I've been in extremely spiritually abusive situations,

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: and some I have even participated in back in the day

Christie Hodson: mm.

David Hayward: I knew what was going on before I had any, you know, before I started learning about all this. How, the church doesn't want to be abusive, but it does want to control people

Christie Hodson: Yeah. Yeah.

David Hayward: that it, it wants to manage people, it wants to shape people.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: And I'm speaking generally,

Christie Hodson: Yeah,

David Hayward: I know somebody's listening. They're saying, well, not at our church.

Christie Hodson: yeah.

David Hayward: know there are some, there are some good churches out there that are just let you be. And they, they're not trying to control you or manipulate you or shape you or whatever. And they love you as you are. And that's great.

And if you are there, you have struck gold. Stay!

Christie Hodson: Yes, yes.

David Hayward: matter how bad the coffee is or how bad the sermons are, or that there's no youth program or anything like that. Or, you know, if you found a community where you're allowed to be yourself, then you've struck gold.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: So what the church does then, is it relabels, it's one of my cartoons actually.

It relabel

Christie Hodson: Mm

David Hayward: what? Instead of, instead of, controlling people, they call it discipleship,

Christie Hodson: mm mm.

David Hayward: you know, instead of shaming people, they call it rebuking people in the Lord.

Christie Hodson: Yes. Yeah.

David Hayward: So there, there's all these, there's all these ways of renaming it so it sounds biblical,

Christie Hodson: Yeah. Yeah.

David Hayward: Because they don't wanna be accused of shaming people and they don't want to be accused of abusing people or hurting people.

Christie Hodson: Right?

David Hayward: So they call it other things to make it sound biblical and acceptable.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: And that's why I, and when I, draw cartoons like that,

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: And sort of speak my truth about that, it's almost like I have revealed a secret almost, and

Christie Hodson: Yes.

David Hayward: like a whistleblower.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: And, you know, some people like whistleblowers and want people to blow the whistle, and other people do not like whistleblowers

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: Because they really do feel they're on a mission and it's a good mission and the end justifies the means.

Christie Hodson: Hmm.

David Hayward: So that's why I keep doing it. That's why I keep talking about spiritual abuse. 'cause I want more and more people to be aware of it

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: And be able to, and that's another thing I talk a lot about. A lot of people don't know they're being spiritually abused. They don't realize what it is.

Christie Hodson: Or even spiritually abusing,

David Hayward: Yes.

Yeah.

Christie Hodson: Yeah,

David Hayward: Yeah.

Christie Hodson: The more you know about what it is, you definitely can see it more.

David Hayward: Well, you know, you're right. You know. 'cause I knew a woman years ago, she's passed away, but where she told a story where, she was a member of my congregation and she said, yeah, this guy came over to visit and he, he sort of tackled me and threw me on the couch and was trying to undress me and kiss me.

And I, and she said like, "Was that wrong?" And I'm like, I'm looking at her like,

Christie Hodson: mm Yeah.

David Hayward: what?

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: Yeah.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: And, and she couldn't tell when she was being sexually assaulted

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: Right. The way she grew up, or, you know, whatever. And she, she didn't have boundaries. She didn't know

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: she was being assaulted. Right?

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: I do know some men, who, don't realize that what they're doing is, crossing boundaries

Christie Hodson: Yeah. Yeah.

David Hayward: and invading women's safe spaces and being patriarchal

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: or, or whatever, you know, and so we all need to be educated

Christie Hodson: Right!

David Hayward: What boundaries are.

Not only others', boundaries, but our own.

Christie Hodson: I've been challenged by some to say, maybe don't use the word "abuse". You know, that's a little harsh. And I just don't know how to, answer

David Hayward: What other word? What other word would you use?

Christie Hodson: just something a little, little less, like maybe hurt, spiritual hurt. You know. But when, something crosses a threshold, I, I have a hard time not calling it what it is.

David Hayward: You know, you, you're, I think you're doing something right when somebody tries to dampen down what you're saying and modify to soften what you're saying.

Christie Hodson: Okay.

David Hayward: like that case in France where that man was, this is triggering,

Maybe for some trigger warning about rape. Where he would drug his wife and.

Men would pay to rape her, and something like 50 men were charged,

Christie Hodson: Wow.

David Hayward: with, with rape, you, you know, the case,

Christie Hodson: I, I am not familiar with that one.

David Hayward: oh my, oh, it just happened something like last year or whatever.

Christie Hodson: Oh,

David Hayward: one of the guys who was charged with rape is writing a book, defending himself, saying that he, he, even though he did what he did, he doesn't want to be known as "a rapist."

Christie Hodson: Unreal!

David Hayward:  And yeah, and the whole story there. And so that's

Christie Hodson: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: You know, That's outrageous! But that's, that's the same thing as people saying, look, let's not call it abuse.

Christie Hodson: Right.

David Hayward: Let's just call it, I accidentally hurt you. I accidentally hurt your feelings.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: It's like a really bad, uh, apology.

Christie Hodson: yes. Or

David Hayward: When,

Christie Hodson: you know?

David Hayward: when I, yeah, when, when I've, I've challenged somebody on being spiritually abusive and they're like,

"Oh, I'm sorry your feelings got hurt!"

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: Mm.

Christie Hodson: shoot.

David Hayward: That's not what I'm trying to say.

You know, I'm sorry. You're so sensitive.

Christie Hodson: Yes.

David Hayward: Yeah. That's not an apology, right?

Christie Hodson: No. Shoot.

All right cartoons have a way of bringing humor to really serious topics. Jesus did something similar in his parables by using stories to invite reflection. How do you see humor helping the church navigate some uncomfortable spiritual truths without shutting down?

David Hayward: You know, some of my worst, some of my best friends now who love my work used to absolutely hate my work.

Christie Hodson: Mm.

David Hayward: And I'm not saying I'm the one who changed their minds, but, and I am aware, like people in my opinion, don't want to change their minds or they would,

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: it takes some kind of trauma, either exterior trauma, like some tragedy or some shocking event or whatever, or some kind of an inner

Christie Hodson: Right.

David Hayward: Emotional intellectual whoah! you know, aha moment.

Um, for people to change. I don't think I can sit in front of people and change them, make or make them change their minds. It takes something inside the person and they change only because they want to it takes 'em, them to do it,

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: So, that's for me, I just keep drawing what I draw and hopefully so my, my first motive is to be truthful, honest, to express myself.

And the second one, I hope it uplifts somebody. Encourages somebody. And the third is, I hope it challenges somebody. You know the whole idea of the two-edged sword where it one edge builds up and the other edge cuts down. I think truth has that aspect to it, that true, like my cartoons, some of my cartoons make people feel good and, and the same cartoon will make somebody angry.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: and so I think, I think all of my cartoons sort of have that double edginess to that to them where they're either encouraging because I am for the marginalized.

Christie Hodson: Yes,

David Hayward: The reason people are marginalized is because people in power want them to be. And so when you encourage the marginalized, those in power are gonna be upset.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: And when you challenge those in power. Speak truth to power, it encourages the marginalized. So, that's, I think I just keep drawing what I draw. I'm not, you know, speaking about things I don't know anything about. I've been there.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: that. I put my time in, in the church. I spent 50 more plus years in the church.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: 30 plus years in the ministry. I went to bible college. Four years, I went to seminary. Two years I went to seminary again for another year. I've taken all kinds of courses. I've read all the books, I've done all the work, and I've  done all the prayers and all the retreats and all the meditation, and so I'm, I know what I'm talking about.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: And, and I've experienced some, I've got some outrageous stories of spiritual abuse that I've experienced, and so I am, I'm speaking empathetically

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: been there. I know what it's like and I want, I want other people to know there's a way out of that pain.

Christie Hodson: yeah. Yeah. And obviously that's why I think a lot of people connect with you 'cause they know that it's out there and either you experienced it themselves or seen a family member experience it or, yeah.

So I'd like to

David Hayward: Hmm.

Christie Hodson: a few of your artwork pieces. We talked about

David Hayward: Yeah.

Christie Hodson: You have this image of a pastor sitting at a desk with like either a fellow elder or something underneath the rug in the room.

Faces appear,

David Hayward: Yeah.

Christie Hodson: The pastor says, "Spiritual Abuse!, I have no idea what' you're talking about." There's something about your artwork that provokes that nervous [00:36:00] laugh. The

David Hayward: Yeah.

Christie Hodson: when truth hits close to home. Why do you think denial is so common in church settings? Why does silence feel easier than naming what's really happening?

David Hayward: Well, I mean, denial. It's, it's a big river in each

Christie Hodson: Yeah, that's a good one.

David Hayward: and, but denial, it's a powerful, powerful tool. I mean, like I said, I for some reason this is something I've had to look inside myself for is, you know, I grew up in a home that had a lot of weird kind of Christianity stuff going on, but we ended up in the Pentecostal Church

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: and Super Hyper Baptist Church.

And I went to a Pentecostal Bible college. I ended up in the Vineyard, which is a sort of a charismatic/evangelical theology kind of movement.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: And so I've been around and I've been in the reform tradition as well. I was a Presbyterian minister for years. And, I've been on the inside and I've seen I, and I've had to ask myself why did I always gravitate towards these kinds of leaders that were charismatic and very attractive, very successful and appealing, but also I come to find out abusive,

Christie Hodson: hmm.

David Hayward: I had to explore my own complicity in my own abuse, You know?

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: Now this, I'm not saying this is for everyone. I'm not saying that if you've been abused, you're complicit. That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is I began to notice that I was attracted to very strong leadership styles that I came to find out, abusiveness came with that territory,

Christie Hodson: Mm.

David Hayward: and I had to ask myself, okay, what's going on?

Why, why am I like that? Why, why is that happening? And, and, and I had to overcome my own denial

Christie Hodson: Mm

David Hayward: of, yeah, no, this, you know, I'm fine. Everything's fine. And come to realize, holy smokes, this is not healthy

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: for me or for those around me. And it was when I tried to make my escape that. They would double down and things would even get worse.

You know? So that image of the pastor with all those souls underneath the rug of harmed people,

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: Ya know he probably really doesn't realize

Christie Hodson: No.

David Hayward: all the people that have he left, he's left in his wake,

Christie Hodson: Mm.

David Hayward: who  are harmed. You know,

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: again, they, we have ways of justifying what we've done and excusing what we've done so that when, when people leave the church, um, because they're, they're fed up with it and, and no longer wanna put up with the abuse or whatever,

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: we, you can even pull up the Bible passage.

"If they've left us, they were never one of us."

Christie Hodson: Mm mm.

David Hayward: That's from, , , one of the epistles of John. If they left us, they were never a part of us in the first place.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: belonged.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: That was used on me several times.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: And, and it's just, denial is just a way of keeping the machine going.

It's the oil

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: that keeps that machine going. And, the leaders on down. Everybody has to deny what's really happening in order for it to keep happening.

Christie Hodson: Yeah. Yeah.

David Hayward: You know, like you watch any documentary on cults, which I did, I  did a deep dive into studying cults and stuff like that after I left the ministry and come to realize, holy smokes, there's a lot of cult-like

Characteristics to what was going on and what goes on in the church.

And one of the big ones is everybody is having a great time enjoying the community, but there's this toxin, you know, at work

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: don't realize was there until you're out of it.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: So it's like dark magic, you know?

Christie Hodson: Mm mm

David Hayward: Yeah.

Christie Hodson: Like you're almost too close to it.

David Hayward: You're too close to it.

Christie Hodson: yeah. When you pull back, you can see it more. 

David Hayward: It's like a lot of women who are in abusive marriages

Christie Hodson: Mm

David Hayward: You know say something happens and they leave their husband or their husband dies or something or other, or they, the husband leaves them or whatever, and they realized, holy smokes, I'm actually starting to feel healthy again. I'm actually starting to smile [00:41:00] again.

I met a man who went on a date and he actually treated me really kindly and like, to them it was like a brand new impossible experience that totally surprised them

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: Because they'd gotten used to normal, you know, and, so it's just a thing.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: Hmm.

Christie Hodson: Wow. alright.

Some of your cartoons hit so close to home, they make people laugh and wince at the same time. Like the

David Hayward: Yeah,

Christie Hodson: going away gift. (I absolutely love this one) from the church.

David Hayward: Yeah,

Christie Hodson: It's uncomfortably funny and devastatingly accurate. How do you approach creating art that tells the truth so boldly & bluntly, yet still invites reflection rather than defensiveness?

David Hayward: yeah. So I can't, I cannot predict what your reaction's going to be. That cartoon I drew out of my own  pain of, leaving the church and what happened to me after I left the ministry and all that.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: And it's happened to me before. And so for those who don't know the cartoon, it's a woman and a man standing and she's opened a gift and it's, it says PTSD and the husband says, what's that?

And she goes, it's a going away gift from the church. And it's was like, yeah, holy smokes. And I just wanted to convey that, , a lot of people, you know, leave the church because of the abuse they suffered, or they're, they no longer wanna put up with the silliness or the

Christie Hodson: Yeah,

David Hayward: toxic relationships or whatever.

And, they realize they have a lot of work to do to get healed

Christie Hodson: yeah, yeah.

David Hayward: over that and so the PTSD, the trauma can also be religious trauma, and it's a recognized field now,you know, you're an expert. It's becoming a recognized field now. Religious trauma is a real thing,

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: more and more people are talking about it.

I just draw that cartoon came in my, came out of my own experience and come to find out, it resonates with a ton of people. Yeah.

Christie Hodson: Oh, shoot. Yeah.

Okay. So you have this powerful drawing of a young woman standing before a panel of church leaders. Their message to her is devastating. "It's not that we don't believe your story, it's that we don't care." That line hits hard, especially for many survivors who experience the exact message.

David Hayward: Mm-hmm.

Christie Hodson: There are many different directions we could go in with this piece, but I wanted to talk about the silence from church leadership. From your perspective, why do you think silence is such a common response in church systems and what does silence reveal about what these systems are protecting?

David Hayward: Yeah, the power of silence, you know, like what was going on in the states or what is going on in the states. I'm from Canada by the way, (for your listeners)

Yeah.

But like with the Southern Baptist Association, when, you know, there's the suppression of certain files and documents and abuse reports, sexual assault reports and all this kind of thing, and it's because they're trying to protect the system.

They're trying to protect the organization,

Christie Hodson: Hmm.

David Hayward: It's the same with the other files that are famously,

Christie Hodson: Yes.

David Hayward: Right now being kept hidden because they know it's gonna damage the reputation of some people.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: And so you know and really is, I really do believe some, there are many people in power that believe that the ends justifies the means

Christie Hodson: yeah,

David Hayward: that this is so important, what we're doing, that, people getting hurt along the way.

It's collateral damage

Christie Hodson: yeah. Yeah. Oh.

David Hayward: and that this is just the cost. This is what it costs to get our agenda through.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: And, you know, that woman in the cartoon, I'm a feminist. I you know, I read feminist literature all the time. I'm, I. Keeping up on it and trying to learn and trying to understand and trying to understand as a, a presenting man what my role is in it all.

And, so that cartoon for me, it came out of the whole, it was inspired by the trial of, oh, I forget her name, the trial when she, when he was being elected to the Supreme Court and, um, she

Christie Hodson: Oh,

David Hayward: Ford.

Christie Hodson: yes,

David Hayward: Yes, Ford.

Christie Hodson: yes,

David Hayward:  And how it was so obvious

Christie Hodson: yes.

David Hayward: That he was guilty,

Christie Hodson: Mm.

David Hayward: and that she had been seriously harmed,

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: but it was also obvious they didn't care.

Christie Hodson: Yeah,

David Hayward: They just, you know, they just didn't care.

Christie Hodson: yeah,

David Hayward: And, and so that's what that cartoon came out of is, yeah, women can speak and speak and complain and complain and report and report, but why doesn't it go anywhere? It's, it's like, you know, how many more women need to testify as firsthand witnesses of sexual abuse

Christie Hodson: Yes.

David Hayward: to believe it.

Why? Why are we waiting for files when you have living people with living testimony? You know what I mean? So it's, it's like, it's silence is, is how you respond to that. It's just that we don't care.

Christie Hodson: they women, but their children too. When this happened. We've

David Hayward: Right? That's right. Yeah.

Christie Hodson: entered a level of [00:47:00] depravity that's

David Hayward: Mm-hmm.

Christie Hodson: yeah.

David Hayward: concerning.

Christie Hodson: yeah. Very concerning.

Are there any particular pieces of your artwork that you feel people have misunderstood?

David Hayward: Um. Well, oh, definitely. You know, there that people always misunderstand my work, but, um, I sometimes am corrected by people

Christie Hodson: Hmm.

David Hayward: me, oh, did you know that cartoon could be taken this way? And I'll say, whoa, you're right. And I take it down and change it or whatever.

Christie Hodson: Hmm.

David Hayward: So whenever I draw a cartoon, if I have any doubt, I send it off to some of my friends who I trust to give me an objective opinion on it.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: Like if there's any racism in it or, toxic masculinity in it, or, antisemitism in it, or any... anything at all? Any transphobic, anything?

Christie Hodson: Yeah. Yeah.

David Hayward: So I have, I have a bunch of trans friends, black friends, brown friends, gay friends, Jewish friends, rabbis, and women friends and so on.

It's like, does, how does this come across you and, I wait for a green light before I'll publish it, , because I, you know, take antisemitism for example.

Christie Hodson: Right?

David Hayward: I think it's very, we need to be very cautious, as people who've are church adjacent or Christianity adjacent, which I am, that we watch out for antisemitism because I do think there are, there's antisemitism in the New Testament and

that there was a struggle between the earliest church and the Jewish community,

Christie Hodson: Mm

David Hayward: And that it's conveyed in scripture. It comes through in scripture,

Christie Hodson: mm.

David Hayward: that there was a lot of resentment towards the Jewish community for not converting, uh, or not playing along or, you know, for killing Christ or, you know, all this kind of stuff.

And so

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: I need to be very careful when I am maybe illustrating a story from the gospels or whatever, that I'm not communicating something that can be taken as anti-Semitic.

Christie Hodson: Mm.

David Hayward: and so I, because I really do believe it's rooted in the New Testament, there's a lot of antisemitism expressed there and latent there.

Not just, not just latent, but, , obvious as well. So, you know, I'm always very, very cautious about, about that because I don't want it to be taken wrong. 'cause I'm not antisemitic. I am not. You know,

Christie Hodson: Racist.

David Hayward: racist. I am not anti-women, you know, misogynist, I am not, you know, whatever.

Christie Hodson: Yes.

David Hayward: But I know I am, I'm, I'm a white straight male that I have a ton of blind spots because of that, and I have a lot of privilege because of that.

And that can cause blind spots and make me ignorant,

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: know, so I have to be very careful all the time. I don't wanna be misunderstood. I wanna be very, very clear. But I know some are gonna be misunderstood, and I, and I can't, sometimes I can't help that. Sometimes I can.

Christie Hodson: Right.

David Hayward: Yeah.

Christie Hodson: Yeah. And I appreciate you taking that responsibility. That's, that shows a lot about your humility and your art too, you know that

David Hayward: Thanks.

Christie Hodson: you're willing to do that.

You're often in your artwork critiquing systems and hierarchies within the church.

David Hayward: Right.

Christie Hodson: what is it about the way the church operates?

It makes it so vulnerable for abuse?

David Hayward: Well, it's a system. I remember, uh, way back in the nineties, I was reading a book by Zimbardo

Christie Hodson: Mm,

David Hayward: called "The Lucifer Effect".

Christie Hodson: mm-hmm.

David Hayward: I found the book fascinating. He's the one that conducted that experiment at Stanford University with the, where students were used as guards and some were the prisoners and they had to shut it down within one weekend because the guards had become super abusive.

And the prisoners, all of them students, all of them emotionally, psychologically, healthy,

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: the students had become abused and harmed and everything. And it just become so destructive that it actually took his wife to convince him to shut it down.

Christie Hodson: Wow.

David Hayward: He later became an expert witness in the Abu Ghraib trials trying to explain why good soldiers can commit evil atrocities towards prisoners,

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: and the abuse that can happen there.

And, I wrote to him, I said, wow, this is really eye-opening because I, I'm a minister in the church pastor, and I can see the same systemic sort of evil that can happen in the church system or any system

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: where good people can do bad things. And, he was, he answered back and said, you're absolutely right, and blah, blah, blah.

We had a conversation. But, it, it, uh, that to me was the eye-opening. Okay. I'm a part of a system that the gravitational pull is gonna be towards the dehumanization of its members

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: fact.

Christie Hodson: Hmm.

David Hayward: And I think my job full-time is preventing that from happening.

Christie Hodson: Hmm.

David Hayward: And, that goes from systems as huge as the military, government, the post office, whatever,

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: schools, hospitals, all the way down to families

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: 'cause a family is a system too.

Christie Hodson: right.

David Hayward: And that the gravitational pull will be towards the dehumanization of the members unless we work against it.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: And so that to me, is I just assume because the church is a system, it's, that's a gravitational pull. And unless you're working full-time against that happening, it's gonna happen.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: That's, that's, a strong element in my message, actually.

I think we need systems. I, it can't be helped

Christie Hodson: Right.

David Hayward: where people gather together, it's gonna happen,

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: we can balance that out and make it work.

Christie Hodson: Yes,

David Hayward: But it takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of work to do that because it's easier to, I'll be honest, I know it's easier to tell people what to do

Christie Hodson: Yep.

David Hayward: than to wait for collegiality.

Christie Hodson: yeah, for sure.

David Hayward: Yeah.

Christie Hodson: Alright, I am by nature a curious person and you seem to be also,

David Hayward: Yeah.

Christie Hodson: I've been asking questions since how it came out of the womb. So your illustrations on the issues of questioning I've really connected with. Why  do you think questioning feels like such a threat and triggers such defensiveness in religious settings?

David Hayward: I wrote a book called Questions Are The Answer, which is, you know, kinda like a memoir on why questions to me became so important. I think,

Christie Hodson: Hmm,

David Hayward: I think it's because it's, it's rooted in curiosity

Christie Hodson: hmm.

David Hayward: that, religion, schools, political parties, whatever cultures we're, conditioned by those.

And they hand us what they want us to believe.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: They tell us what we should believe. And so we're sort of, you know, someone can go through life totally conditioned and totally being fed by

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: the system, what to believe and everything until they die,

Christie Hodson: Yeah,

David Hayward: until somebody says, well, wait a minute, what about, or why you know, and it's a typical adolescent, it starts, it can start in adolescence.

I mean, you know. Sure, sure. We can ask questions when we come from the womb, for sure. Like you, me too. I was very curious.

Christie Hodson: Yeah. Yeah.

David Hayward: It takes on a new power when we reach adolescence when we're like, why should I listen to you? Why, why should I obey my teacher? Why should I be afraid of the police?

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: you know, whatever.

And where we actually challenge the status quo and the systems that are around us to keep us in place.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: And so, I really do believe that, these, it's one thing to say, well, wait, was the earth really created in six days?

Christie Hodson: Hmm.

David Hayward: And then you can, I'll have argue about it and scientifically and all that, and then, that might be one question, but another question might be, you know, I, I don't know about this whole creation thing.

Like,

Christie Hodson: Hmm.

David Hayward: Like does there need to be a God for this all to exist? That's a question is gonna cause get you in trouble,

Christie Hodson: Yeah, yeah,

David Hayward: Right??

Christie Hodson: It is nice to be around people though that can handle some of those questions where you're just... I

David Hayward: Yeah.

Christie Hodson: Don't know about you, but I'm a verbal processor, so like I'll just

David Hayward: Right.

Christie Hodson: keep talking out my thoughts with, and it's great if you're with somebody else, it's the same way, you know, you can..

David Hayward: Yeah. Yeah.

Christie Hodson: ..Spit out some of those things. It almost feels like there's teenage phase around 50, you know? 'cause I found myself to be a even more skeptical at 50 than I was at 40 and 30.

David Hayward: Right,

Christie Hodson: I don't know

David Hayward: Right.

Yeah. We care less, I think,

Christie Hodson: hmm.

David Hayward: know, as we get older, it's like, yeah, I haven't got time for this.

Christie Hodson: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Since patriarchy still shapes much of religious culture, do you think an independent woman can truly live freely and authentically in these systems? Or will she always be pushed to play small?

David Hayward: Oh, I think, you know, I, I'm not a conspiracy theorist,

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: but it's funny that I have to preface what I say with that.

Christie Hodson: Hmm.

David Hayward: But, all my reading in feminist literature and so on, , I'm talking Bell Hooks, Rebecca Solnit, Claire Dederer, you know, others, that, Margaret Atwood, you know, "Handmaid's Tale", et cetera, that I really do think the root issue, the root of the problem, the center of toxicity is white male supremacy,

Christie Hodson: Hmm.

David Hayward: The patriarchy.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: And I really do believe that that is the force.

Christie Hodson: Hmm.

David Hayward: The evil force. The dark force.

Christie Hodson: Hmm.

David Hayward: And so yeah, women are gonna suffer because of that and so ] it takes men and women, all kinds of people, all kinds of genders and sexualities and

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: voices and cultures and everything to speak against this

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: and raise our voices and to seek, more and more equality,

Christie Hodson: Yeah,

David Hayward: And, yeah.

I think it's, very thoroughly embedded in our cultures and we need to uproot it, but it's a full-time job. That's another thing that's a full-time job.

Christie Hodson: Yeah. Okay.

David Hayward: 'cause I do think the gravitational pull is towards white male supremacy

Christie Hodson: Hmm.

David Hayward: and con and that means control, you know?

So you've talked about how true spiritual freedom sometimes comes from stepping outside the denominational structures. In 2012, you founded "The Lasting Supper", an online community for people rethinking or leaving their religion. Can you share what that community

Yep.

Christie Hodson: provides and why it matters so much for people healing from spiritual harm?

David Hayward: Yeah, "The Lasting Supper" is kinda like my home group, my small group. And, I left the ministry in 2010 and the church. We were experiencing a lot of loneliness. I had started talking about deconstruction in 2006 before anybody else was, I mean, I borrowed the word from the French philosopher Jacques Derrida.

But, I found the way he talked about. He actually coined the word deconstruction, but I found it a useful way to explain what I was experiencing spiritually. So I started using that word to explain and share my own spiritual journey. And I noticed other people were sort of in the same, on the same path, sort of generally speaking, and how we had no resources.

I mean, when you're in the church, you got a ton of resources when you leave the church, suddenly you're on your own

Christie Hodson: yeah, yeah.

David Hayward: No tools.. And so I thought, well, I'm lonely, number one.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: Number two, there's a lot of other lonely people out there. Why don't I start an online community, see what happens.

Christie Hodson: Mm.

David Hayward: I did. And you know, it hovers around 200 members.

It's, it's not big. I don't want it to be big 'cause I want it to feel.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: like a community. And so it's been going now for thir, no, 14 years now. , I model it after the way I pastored my last church, which is very democratically. I am not your guru. I am not your teacher. I'm not your pastor.

I'm just here to facilitate community. Here's a safe place for you to vent without anybody correcting you or, you know, balancing out your words or giving you advice. And it's quite a diverse group of people, anywhere from churchgoing, believers to atheists who will never darken the door of a church again, and everybody in between.

And it's a wonderful community because we just respect each other where we are on our journeys. And to me, it's a testimony to what is possible.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: In community. And, so I really believe in the value of that.

I speak from that. I really do believe that this kind of community is possible in real life as well.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: and so, I keep it going, you know.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: and for those who are interested, you can go to www.thelastingsupper.com

and, yeah, it's just a wonderful safe space for people to, learn how to become spiritually independent.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: To me, that's a very valuable thing.

Christie Hodson: And yet be with community. Yeah.

David Hayward: be with community.

Christie Hodson: That

David Hayward: Yeah, well see people, when I say spiritually independent, a lot of people think, I, I don't think it's good for us to be alone.

That's not what I mean. I'm not spiritual independence. You're an independent, independent person.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: I'm an independent person, yet I'm married

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: to another independent person. So we have an [01:02:00] interdependent relationship, not a codependent one

Christie Hodson: Yes.

David Hayward: or a dependent one. And so for me, a healthy relationship occurs when you have one independent person and another independent person choose to be interdependent.

And so that to me, when I talk about spiritually independent, I mean you are able to be spiritual on your own. You don't need a guru, you don't need a guide. You don't need somebody in authority. And you don't need permission. You are the captain of your own ship, the master of your own destiny. You're driving your own car.

You get to choose your food

Christie Hodson: yeah. Yeah.

David Hayward: and, make your own diet. And so that to me, what spiritually independent means.

Christie Hodson: Where can these listeners go to find more about your artwork or your books, your blog post,

David Hayward: Yeah,

Christie Hodson: your website for the lasting community, and for those that are listening to this, I will put some of these in the show notes, or we'll

David Hayward: yeah,

Christie Hodson: in the show notes. Do you wanna add anything to that?

David Hayward: yeah. So I have, my main base campus "nakedpastor.com", and that's where all my art is, my cartoons. And you can find me at anywhere else from there.

Christie Hodson: Mm-hmm.

David Hayward: my online community, thelastingsupper.com. My books are all on Amazon or anywhere books are sold. David Hayward, sometimes "Naked Pastor".

And then I think my liveliest community that is the safest that is public is on Instagram. So, if you just look for "Naked Pastor" on Instagram and follow me there, I post a cartoon, a new cartoon there every day and often a painting or some other kind of reflection or whatever. But, yeah, go to Instagram and find me there.

Christie Hodson: Awesome. Thank you.

David Hayward: Yeah,

Christie Hodson: I have, I have one last question.

David Hayward: sure, sure.

Christie Hodson: what final message would you share with a listener who's lost their faith in the institution? Is nursing their own soul bruises and yet still longs for meaning, belonging, and connection?

David Hayward: That's such a,  that's a very, very good question. And I think that's the number one pain point most people experience when they leave the church is loneliness and they miss the community. So that would take a ton of unwrapping. But look, here's what Lisa and I did.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: Lisa's my wife. Uh, what Lisa, yeah, what Lisa and I did was, we chose not to go back to church steady.

I mean, we tried here and there, but we just didn't seem to wanna work for us. So what we decided to do, and we lost all our friends, a lot of them anyway, yeah, pretty much, I'm gonna say all except for one couple.

Christie Hodson: Wow.

David Hayward: And so we decided, you know what? We need to build our own community of friendships.

And so, we tried to restore some old friendships and we built new friendships and we will visit a church maybe now and then, there's a local church that's affirming here and pastor and I are friends sometimes ] we go, well actually we've been twice, but it takes a lot of work. And, but I'll tell you one thing , we do miss that aspect of church where you were part of this huge family.

And everybody knew you. And, there was all kinds of support there. And you knew people were praying for you and there were babysitters and there were mechanics, and there were, lawyers, you know, whatever. There was, there were friendships, there were small groups, there were activities.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: and it's, I've tried, Lisa's tried.

It's really, really hard to replace that.

Christie Hodson: Hmm.

David Hayward: And so we'd have to unpack that. That'd be a whole other episode.

Christie Hodson: Yeah.

David Hayward: But it's it is a big deal. The church has dropped the ball, in my opinion. It's unfortunate because it does have the corner on the market when it comes to the potential to have really good community,

Christie Hodson: yeah,

David Hayward: but unfortunately most of them are toxic.

Christie Hodson: yeah. Yeah.

David Hayward: And I, and I would not recommend, but if you can find a community. That isn't toxic and that's healthy for you. Then, like I said earlier, you've struck gold.

Christie Hodson: Yes,

David Hayward: Yeah.

Christie Hodson: And, I have some relatives that have struck gold with the, and I'm like, stay there. Stay.

David Hayward: Yeah,

Christie Hodson: you're in a healthy church.

David Hayward: yeah.

Christie Hodson: that's, that's wonderful. That's wonderful.

Thank you, David, for taking this time to chat. Every time...

David Hayward: Thank you, Christie.

Christie Hodson: ...your artwork or hear or read your work, I'm just inspired and I refreshed your, your honesty is so refreshing. 

David Hayward: Well, thank you.

Christie Hodson: Please, please keep doing it.

David Hayward: I will.

Christie Hodson: So yeah. Thank you for, stopping by the Soul Bruises Podcast, and it's been wonderful to have you today.

David Hayward: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on the show.

Christie Hodson: Thank you.

MY RESPONSE

 Christie Hodson: Wow, what a great conversation with David. I really appreciated his candidness on like matters of spiritual abuse. It's a really tricky thing to talk about, and the fact that he is able to capture so much of what people go through in one image is just, it's powerful and. I know that he is coming from a place of experience.He even mentioned, such and that's difficult to hear, but I'm grateful that he is willing to be vulnerable and show in art what that can feel like, and yet how, you can rise above it. Or heal from it or know what it is, but his voice, is coming from a place of experience. 

I appreciated his humility of his heart and his willingness and moxie to stand with those on the margins.

Please check out his work in the show notes of this podcast episode. I really appreciate you listening to this episode of this interview with David Hayward,

and I hope you come back next time. 

Until then. Be Human, Be Kind, Be Both.