S1E4: Children Should Learn Grammar!

In this episode, we talk about why children should learn grammar...kind of. We give our reasons in how and why children and adults need to learn the grammatical aspects of the language. We also discuss why adults need to know the more technical aspects of Anishinaabemowin and how we share our knowledge of 'grammar patterns' with our children. 

We talk about the importance of us as learners, reading to our children. We debunk an aspect of the language learning myth that 'children and adults learn (or acquire) language the same way'!

PSA: If you don't want to listen to the Anishinaabemowin dialogue of the podcast, skip to 5 min 10 sec.

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Many people have reached out to ask where they can donate or support revitalization efforts. This link leads to our Link Tree which has a Patreon as well as "Buy me a Coffee" where you can donate to our families cause and initiatives we do to support learning in the home and across our communities. Miigwech

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:02

Welcome to anyway, our second podcast. This is our podcast about raising children in one second language.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

I want to go cover quick. And this is my husband. So here we will be talking about stories, challenges, trying some tips as we share our experiences about our household of five.

SPEAKER_06 3:43

Um godmaseg me.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

So I think we're just gonna first acknowledge um our views on what we mean by learning grammar as adults. Or maybe not as adults, but I'll let you speak to that first.

SPEAKER_05 5:29

Just so this is kind of what I like talking about. Um so there's a lot of um misunderstandings or uh misnomers about the word grammar and what that means, and people think that um if you're gonna learn grammar then it's um all about these big word concepts like conjugation and verbs and nouns and preterite and prefix suffixes and prefixes and form, yeah. I'm just kidding. And using all these words that we don't really understand when we first hear them, so it could it kind of for some people it turns them off of learning, but it's not really about learning those terms, it's more about learning how the words work and how to put your sentences together, and no matter what, no matter how you're trying to learn, you're gonna be picking up these ways of or you have to pick up these ways of how the language works, and how to say something happened in the past, or how to say something is gonna happen in the future, things like that. And so my view is that in the case for adults, we need to consciously learn those, and even if you're in immersion, there's still you're gonna have to find a way to figure out okay, how did how did how do I say I already did that versus I'm doing it right now versus I want to do that in the future. That's my kind of little explanation on on what um kind of the word grammar kind of is sometimes a bad word in in our uh in our language learning circles or um people who might not completely understand how it comes across.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Or that we don't look at the language in a sacred way, or that we don't look at the language as alive and a thing. It's just that we we completely do and we we honor it in that way, and we honor it in the context it needs to be to the best of our abilities. It's just and to know some of those terms, sometimes it's easier to access information that is only written in those ways. So if we're looking for something and there's only reference in a linguistic book, you know, then if you know those words, it's easier to access access, you know. That is neither here nor there, you know, referencing those books, but there is books out there that do help, you know. Rand Valentine has one of our examples, the reference grammar book, which I'm well I I'll admit I'm still too scared to open because I'm not there yet. Um and anytime I do, I don't understand enough of it, so I know where I am in my journey and and hopefully I feel like one day it'll be there when I'm ready to to read it.

SPEAKER_05 8:40

Yeah, so it's like people like like language nerds like me that kind of look into those kinds of things, like those books, and uh have to try and interpret the linguistic terminology and then when I go and teach it I kind of have to make it put it into layman's terms or something that's understandable. Um not even necessarily explaining it in English, but somehow getting it across in if if we're trying to do immersion and and tr trying to get the concepts the concept of it across to people and even like our kids.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

So especially in these days with um you know, we can't access elders even if we had access to speakers, um, just for their own safety and for hours. And not everyone has access to go and sit with fluent speakers to hear those things over and over, you know. Um, to get those grammar patterns just from just sitting and li listening in immersion.

SPEAKER_05 9:50

I guess what I'll I'll explain like a simple grammar pattern that people don't know what that that means or sounds like or looks like, so the simple one is just like using past tense, so or even the personal pronoun. So if I want to say I'm eating nawison, and then I wanna say I ate in ghiweesen. Or if I want to say I'm running, miptu. I ran in ghee miptu. So that's like a simple grammar pattern and then it gets more complicated, but so just knowing you put the gi for past and that's that's a simple kind of beginner level type grammar pattern.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Yeah, like I found the pattern. All of these are past tense, all of these have g, right? So um for those that don't have necessarily the access to go and have those hours of listening, um, and have to listen via online or recordings or whatever, or only have access to books, um, this is just one other way for them to help vitalize or reclaim the language in these weird circumstances that we find ourselves today, and because of the displacement of a lot of inter urban indigenous families. So I just wanted to put that out there too, because um neither m Ozawa or myself have any family who speak or have grown up around it, so we have had to make do with um either traveling far to go to have those opportunities or to be accessing like things that we have around us resources. So setting that aside.

SPEAKER_05 11:40

So when we say that kids should learn grammar, and what what my opinion is is that yeah, kids should learn grammar, but it's not the grammar of let's sit down, let's write down the whiteboard and go over grammar patterns with our two-year-old. It's um using words in different contexts and in their in their different um forms. So, like one story when I first started learning, um, I met this other young mother, and she had a must have been a five or six year old. So her daughter came home one day from school and she had this language papers and she had a word minokajeb. And she told her mom, like, I don't know what this means, what's minno kajeb mean? And then her mom told her, Oh, I tell you this every day, like I every morning we say minokajeb. And then her daughter was like, Well, I don't know what that means. And she said, Oh, it means good morning. So, but because her she didn't give any other context or use it in any other way, um, there was no um unders like a real understanding of what that meant. It was just kind of like a greeting in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

It could have meant the sun is up. Yeah. Rise and shine.

SPEAKER_05 13:18

Yeah, or you had a good sleep, like she didn't really know what that that meant, because there's no other context in which Are you hungry?

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Did you have good dreams?

SPEAKER_05 13:27

In which she used it. Um so using um using like Kajeb in other contexts, like Waban Kajeb or Jinago Kajeb. Um kids will pick pick up on those things quicker than adults for sure. So that's just one um one aspect of it that in which we have as learners um trying to teach um children, we have to think of other as many contexts and different ways of using the words as we can for them to truly understand it. So another way is like we have these transitive verbs, which you're just adding things to the beginning or end to the words, and then they change. So if I want to say, I'll see you later, bambi goabmin. And a lot a lot of learners know that, like they know that phrase. Um, but then what if I want to say else I'll see you all later? You have to there's a different ending for that. And then what if I just wanted to say, oh I'll see him later? Oh, or her later. So using those different endings, like I have to consciously think about um, okay, I'm using this root wabum, and I want my children to fully grasp what that means, and so I in different contexts I have to think about using that word and how it changes. And they they can pick it up, and so they're technically they're learning the grammar of the language. Um so another uh example was I was in uh I was in this classroom at our school that was doing immersion and the kids were still speaking in English, but I knew all of the kids had gotten some language from our daycare and um being in the being in that classroom for a bit. So I know I knew that they knew some language. And so I was kind of playing with this one boy and I wasn't speaking English to him at all. And he was speaking English like he had like little dinosaurs or something. And then um the teacher announced that we were gonna be going outside. Or no, there was an announcement that we're gonna be going outside that we're gonna have a fire drill. So I had I asked him in the language, I said, Are you Do you do you want to go outside? I said, Guiana Go Jing. And then he responded to me, Gawin. So before that he didn't use any of the language, and then he he knew what I said and he and he responded in language. So it was like me just staying in the language kind of pushed him to to use it. And then I responded to him with Gawin now, Gwijia Si Gujing? Like you're you don't want to go outside, and he's like, Gawin. So I I purposely did that so that he could hear the negative version of that like going Gui J, like the the negative ending on that.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

The n the negating.

SPEAKER_05 17:22

Yeah, so uh just things like that in which we as adults, I feel we have to know those and kind of be conscious of what we're saying to them and um like we can't just I can't just use Guabmin and then that's it. I have for her or for our daughter or son to truly pick up the language and know how it works, I have to um role model or demonstrate the different ways of saying.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Yeah, because the the language also like kind of flows like that too. And I was noticing that. I think I was talking about that like a couple weeks ago after my first semester. I was kind of talking about how I was beginning to understand those was it the filler words I was explaining kind of how like how you c how those words kind of I think I was explaining it like a video game or something. Or like Tetris, how like they kind of pick up and move around and you can like sort them in and out, and I was beginning to visualize it now and I could see how the language was was um animate after like doing these exercises over and over again, but my main point is um so there's words like um shkopagagan, shkopag shkop so hold on, shkoppagagan. Um that I've been able, like I've had the benefit or the privilege of being able to hear it used in so many different ways in the over the past year or two years. I remember hearing it at Ashkinish Nabamrik at the ending ceremony, used as um not as key, which is how I understood it to be, but as like tools, something that you would use to help you, that would help unlock something, or help, you know. And then I heard it again in class, but it was used as um it was used in a similar fashion, like almost like it was it was a resource or tool or um a way of extending to get what you need. Some some similar to like a key. Um or it was like I'll have to look up, I wrote it down. Um but even as an adult, learning the different ways in which a word isn't married to uh a meaning, or it isn't married to an English meaning, it can have several different ways it molds because of the way the language works. So being able to bring those out and use them with your children, because yeah, I'm just even noticing them as an adult. Using these things within your heart to unlock using these tools to unlock things within ourselves and the fire. Like, I don't want to say it all here, and I don't want to explain it all, and um and I could be wrong because it was only I only have it from a memory, and a memory only because it's stuck in my heart. So I could have it completely wrong, and this is uh if I do, it's a perfect example of context, right? Um sound very similar. He's talking about something translates it to English, I hear unlock. He could have been referring to the bundle, and I just didn't know. I'd have to go and ask after that conversation, but it was within ceremony, so we'll just leave it, but I just want to there was another point where, like, in class that it was used again that word, and I was kind of like, huh, like did not think it had that many meanings. Was there anything else that you kind of wanted to touch on about you know children acquiring grammar or learning grammar, but maybe not through the ways that we understand it?

SPEAKER_05 21:19

Uh I guess just re-reiterating because there's a lot of misconceptions and people want to say that grammar isn't useful or they it's not it's the shogunash way, or um they want to acquire the language, they don't want to learn the language. So it's just kind of reiterating that your whatever you want to call it, whether you want to call it grammar or how the language works, in the essence. Yeah, or in yeah, anything, whatever you want to call it, you still have to know how to put the language together, and that's in English as well. Like we're technically when we speak English to children or babies, they're learning the structure of English and how to put things together.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

I don't know if you have any examples or experiences of the one that came off the top of my head when you were talking was maybe Zodai and this is probably one that comes up in English a lot too, and and that is her going, When ish and well she's using the English word what? Oh yeah, she does use what. Yeah, she'll be like what But I think what she means is why. And so I often repeat, like, Ani Dush, but she doesn't understand. She thinks I'm saying hi again. So it or she thinks that I'm asking a different like she just doesn't ha understand the concept yet, so it's like working on that. That is a whole grammar in itself, like okay, how do I use ani dush enough and emphasize it in enough situations versus when I go oni, like you know, repeat yourself, I didn't hear you versus ani, like bojo, oni, like how are you? Versus like when I shani onish like wiganesh.

SPEAKER_05 23:22

Yeah, so that's like another one that was talking about in our earlier podcasts when I when we kind of roleplay with their toys and stuff. So that was one that I've been trying to use more lately is the anidash and then plus anja makes it why, so so I'll make the person like say oh bakade and then the other person I'll make say uh anidash and buccade and so he's saying why are you hungry and then I'll have the other guy reply, oh goin and give s no si nungwa. So giving her like more context of of using that um anish or anidash enje or anish enje whatever and then the verb, whatever it is, and then getting a r a reply from from another from another toy so that she's seeing that or hearing that conversation and she seems to understand when it's in that context, but and we just started doing that too within the last two, three weeks, um it was a suggestion that we start having dialogues that we have as adults in front of the kids to show them how to have healthy dialogue about c outcomes, consequences, conflict conflict resolution, open dialogue and communication.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

So um we've just kind of started having these, you know, oh no, it's in geek pacado pagadoin or is that right? Pagadoyan? Yeah. And then you know you being like Anidash Gasha.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

Yeah, Anidash Gasha.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Oh umiska shin uh po um gokwakat ki pokete uhate this like when it hit me umiskin the manodendum no gum.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Gustavo Staminanos Waganish and Echo Namana Dendaman. Gain to the Oh, Mikwaj, Nongum Gawin Gawin no wage the man dendam. Wiganish wash again um gishpinwa pogado pogato yan bean dik and dian.

SPEAKER_03 26:08

Gawini pogado see tapin they tip it tapabinot said?

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Oh. Yeah, the tepiginon. So we the tepaginon enough? Eh.

SPEAKER_05 26:29

So what she said for those that might not know is that like, oh, I don't like when you throw something and why not? Yeah, and then I asked why, and then she had an explanation of it hurts me when the ball hits and I don't it makes me sad.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

Do you have anything you want to say since I'm sad?

SPEAKER_05 26:54

Yeah, so like I don't I won't throw it, I'll roll it.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Uh and then so we've only really just acquired that skill, but it's it's not only like a conflict resolution skill, but it's also like it's grammar is built right into it, like it's just speaking, right? Like she gets to hear out loud those questions those things that we already know as adults, that inner dialogue that we want to give them. And then there's more exposure, right? Um that was just one example of something that we've just started doing.

SPEAKER_05 27:36

Yeah, so like concepts of like when I was thinking of like the non-physical ones, like we have like ones that she picked up pretty pretty easy were like Zukun, like it's heavy, or nonakun, it's light, because we could actually pick up something and she she got that, but like uh things like Bama, like Ba Ma P, like not just Baama P as in see you later, but like Baama, like later, like we're gonna do it later. And so just using that and reinforcing it. And now she knows kind of the concept of that, or like wabang or jinago, kind of bringing stuff up like oh Nikwandana, Gajij, Gajitchgeang, Jinago, like do you remember what we did yesterday? Or just saying talking about things about yesterday and then talking about things about tomorrow. Like wabang khajib. Like s sometimes she won't want to go to bed, so we'll say something like Oh Wabang Kajib got dumb in the meh, like we'll we'll play tomorrow morning. And then she she understands that you know, those concepts of tomorrow and yesterday and using that in the language.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

Yeah, we use musia for that. It's not correct, but she uses musia for long time ago, which is really yesterday, which is a something that at least I I've experienced. Maybe Nishanapek way back when didn't say that, but all little kids that I've met will be like a long time ago yesterday, you know. And so she will do that too, to kind of refer that it was in the past. Um because she's just started with her giggies and her gauze, I've noticed, right?

unknown 29:37

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Yeah, like she's that's just started coming in now, and she's about yeah, three and a half years now. Yeah. That ging gaw.

SPEAKER_05 29:48

Yeah, and then I've been trying to like sometimes we'll go for walks and I'll just try and talk about what we're doing as we're doing it, like just so that she can hear it, the things that we're Doing outside and uh like running, jumping, and stuff like that, and we're walking in the forest, and we're going to the river, and there's other things that um like I'll just lately I've been trying to just make up stuff to be silly, so I'll be like today I saw an elephant riding a bike outside just to hear just to have her hear different contexts of different things. And that's what she gets that's what she would get in English stories anyway, or English cartoons. But and she completely understands it because she'll be like, Golly, like you didn't see that. Yeah. Yeah, that that concept too. Um, the first time I noticed, like, so we say Nishagonar and Sh Nishon Dakit. We're just kidding. The first time that I really noticed was she wa we were leaving and getting in the car, and we have our a little sidewalk leading up to our car. And she wasn't she was like just staying back near the near the house. And so I said, Okay, I'm leaving then. Nina Majah. I'm leaving. And so I got in the car and then the car was on and I just kind of sat there and then she kind of started getting a little sad, so then I got back out, and then I said, Masha and the kid. Like, I'm just kidding, and I started laughing, and then she's like, Oh, okay, and she started laughing too. So that was the first time that I had noticed that she got the concept of of what that just kidding means, and I I don't even know if she knows just kidding in English.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

Yeah, I don't know if she does. I never heard her say it.

SPEAKER_05 32:05

Yeah, so but she gets like the concept of of like we're playing a joke and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Mm-hmm. She'll say like no sendow or Bojo Bojo no, she'll always say to me. Eventually she'll say she'll say Inshantake.

SPEAKER_05 32:24

Yeah, so she has like her sense of humor and she's putting it through in the language.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

Or Shishmaji, her um man, but that only happens if we use it. So if we use it a lot, she'll use it a lot. Um and it's one I use a lot in English, so I've been trying to use it in the language. Um, so another thing that I do is I read to her while she goes to sleep, and I will read out of books that have no picture pictures that are for adults that have big, long, lengthy texts that are full of really good grammar. And I do this one so she can hear me properly use grammar correctly, sound correctly, like I'm a fluent language speaker because I'm reading and I have I have a little bit of cadence when I get going, so it's for her to actually hear me speaking, although she doesn't get the context of me, you know, showing her pictures or describing things. She gets to hear on my chest me speaking the Schnaubinwin like a fluent speaker. It also helps me learn those grammar patterns. I find after I've read like a book five or six times all the way through, I start noticing, oh my gosh, I've noticed that they use this part, this part, this part, like in these same ways over and over again. I'm starting to get why and how just by reading and exposing myself. And then it also puts her to bed because she's listening one to a regular cadence of just a lot in the shnappemwin of really dull stuff. I'm not using any English and I'm not saying, you know, wow, and then this happened, and then this happened. I'm just, you know, ding, muja, jagana shak da bo shina what wampingabe king gi, you know. So that um has been helpful for me and for her. I used to get really irritated and annoyed. She's three, she's been sleeping in a bed for almost a year now, or sorry, over a year now, um, on her own through the night and potty trained. So I don't mind the fact that we still have to go in and help her get to sleep. And I just got sick and tired of like sitting there trying not to move, trying not to breathe for hours on end, and feeling like it was not a waste of time, but just feeling frustrated that there's nothing I can do, and so my my solution was I can rock her, I'll get some cuddle time in, some special time while she's young, and she can listen to me speak the language, and there's no fuss or fight, and then she can go right over. So I'm learning, she's learning, she's falling asleep, easy process. Recommended if you like to read in the language, I do.

SPEAKER_05 35:23

Um, just one thing that I'll touch on is that sometimes people say babies our adults learn like babies, like that's how we should learn the language. And just like what you're saying, like cuddle time and affection and using those using that language with them, like I don't know a program where a fluent speaker is gonna hold me in their arms and and be like, oh, gazagin, gymshin, and hold me close to them, and I mean that might be fun, but we don't well as far as like I don't know any programs where you're gonna get that one-on-one affection time with a phone speaker, like you do when you're a baby and getting all of this time right from sunrise to sundown with uh with an adult. And so that's one of the huge differences that I think that babies have over like adults, like the theory that adults should learn like babies. And just like things like walking for the first time, like you know, there's that emotion that's involved in that, or like talking for the first time, and your parents like going, yay, and clapping, and how do you how do you um get that same type of emotion in a program or like with a fluent speaker because you're already adult, so there's not a lot of things that or like these other emotions of like uh standing on the sofa and you they're gonna fall and you gotta like tell them to get down and stuff like that. And you don't get that in in uh even if you're trying to do immersion in the house with adults and elders, like you just don't get that same emotion or that affection um that you do as as children, and that to me that plays a big part in in learning language too.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Well, it's a great part of um learning self-regulation, it's a big part of development those times. I could talk about it now that I have been learning about that, but I know that this isn't that type of program. Um, but those are like key factors that we talk about. So for those of who are out there who do understand a little bit about child development, early childhood education, we know that in order for children to learn and grow and develop better, they need to have those strong bonds from the beginning, those affectionate tones, those affectionate touches, that intimate time to learn that it is safe, um, and how to regulate when things go awry, how to bring themselves back down by being exposed to those things. So through language learning in that type of a setting, um, as as children, they're gonna learn much differently than people who have learned um who have not learned their language or learning as adults, who still feel those emotional blockages of not having learned it at an early age and not having learned it and not knowing why they don't know it. There's a whole other like dynamic that comes with adults learning versus children learning from the start. And that plays a huge factor in how people react and how people are triggered and how people respond to hearing new things or making a mistake.

SPEAKER_05 39:11

So just so that we're connecting it to, I guess, this um episode? This episode theme is that that's technically called sociolinguistics, when uh you're learning a language and you're attaching emotion or different context of of emotions to that and how to use those words and you're you're making a connection that's kind of being embedded in you like um like when you say team shin kiss me you're you're getting that you're feeling that love from your parents and so that's like the whole that's technically a a grammatical piece of of language learning.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

This whole section, so so yeah, lots to look at, lots to consider. We're just kind of coming at it from our stance. It doesn't mean that this is the be all end all. This is just where we've come in our journey and and what we've gathered and collected along the way and how we've been able to navigate and uh decipher through this mess of walking through two worlds at one time and bringing our babies along with us. So in saying that, I think we'll probably say kegwa. At the same time as you. Yo, gross. Kigwa on to sheep on to sheet canabanian. Yeah, there we go, I got it. Uh-huh.