S2E4: Migizi - Dr. Michael Migizi Sullivan Sr.

Join us as we sit with Dr. Michael Migizi Sullivan Sr, an incredible father and second language learner, Native American Studies Director Ph.D of Philosophy - Linguistics - University of Minnesota. Migizi being someone who has helped both Ozaawaa and I during our language journeys, we are honoured for him to take the time to share his outlook on Ojibwemowin and how he has taught, raised children and inspired many more with his gifts of the language. 

linktr.ee/enweying.oursound

Many people have reached out to ask where they can donate or support revitalization efforts. This link leads to our Link Tree which has a Patreon as well as "Buy me a Coffee" where you can donate to our families cause and initiatives we do to support learning in the home and across our communities. Miigwech

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

We're moving forward, but what are we bringing with us? You know, and that's that's kind of been my angle through all of this. Is like, is our does our language get to come with? Like, I hope so. Um, but we are the only ones that get to determine that now. You know, it's not the man keeping us down, it's not the council that hasn't put up the money, it's us as individuals, you know. What are we gonna do? But are we gonna bring it with us? Because council's not, you know, the the governor's not, you know, or whoever else, funders, whatever else we're relying on, they're not gonna bring our language with us. We are gonna do that.

SPEAKER_04 0:52

Welcome to N Waning, our sound podcast. This is a grassroots podcast intended for those raising or helping to raise children in an indigenous language.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

A special shout out to the Indigenous Screen Office for making season two of N Waning possible. Get Jimmy Gwech.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

For being here and for being willing to join us and talk to us.

SPEAKER_04 1:24

Yeah, we're just like we had to get you on here to be one of our guests and one of the goats of Nishana Bemwen, Ojibwe Muen revitalization. Yeah, so if you want to just introduce yourself. Uh how good.

SPEAKER_05 1:44

Mingizi Indigenous Karnigu, me you uh Indonesian Abi when the cars win ga pre meiji down near bungi. Aya Ansawian Miyoma Ishkunaganing or Dawasar Gay Ganing, Miyama, in the key on gaobi, mioma wane gion. O dana wase dash in or dana wacing in dun a kiang meo is ganawang is in a cadi. Meoma Nwa Kaya gunin on a mag Minoa gikano de bigane also we gamigung, shunagun, me so, giddin wavin'an, gikinua maagi on minuwa Ani, eji twa young nishana baby young minwa Anujigo gegu isi chige young nanda wang jige young the jikumang Manub the Manuminaki young minwa is gigumizige young gigu sewin kinagi go nanjigewa nishanawe misiu isichigeyang umakeya bimina jatamanga inu wezi young and nishana bewi young indawa dash niwin nini janisag ni nisa nisi nisi waging gul ninguzis sagwinwa bejik nindanisamujagan niju gabu isinakazo nijhtana daso babunigizia oh, nawajganuzi a pe s ninwash uhedi beijik niguzis manidu baneshi sag is inakazo, a shininggo darso babunagizi ya o mego bajina gimaji o dabi weit bapinizi wagunidug inwash nindanasinan a shinano babunagizi, ogimagi gukwaj inakazo, kenegu we no gekendan, neta neta gikange g ewa in the sque jargun andanjau no sej inakazo metu go madaso babunagizi draw eko newing, me go bajina ekon ewingi, kiji, kiiji kangide wadu kudari, me magata jigikino maguziwa nini nini janisananik, we wadu kadari, metigo beijik gaybi, ayadima. Nuji in the jichigi, cho janamizia, johnamizian ba. We do kawa gni janishanabi, bimnija, boemo win magajja a sema chige geyang and gujya we kwa jichige the bidagushananima the na the mageshian and uh the nagamo yan panainamba nagamo min me uh uh and jaganashim nagae. So, my name is uh Magizi, and that's the name uh most people know me as as my Nishinaabe name I was given when I was a a little bitty guy and uh still known by Megizi. My English name is Michael Sullivan. I'm from the LCO Ojibwe Reservation, Lakudre, or Odawaza Gayagun, we call it in Ojibwe. And we're about an hour south of the southern shore of Lake Superior. We're about an hour south of Bad River, Ashland, Duluth, that area. Um, the little village we live in is called the Skunawong. We're right in between two lakes, right? We're big LCO and uh meets up with Gurno Lake. Our house is right in between about 100 yards from each lake. So we live in the woods, pretty nice area. We spend a lot of time uh harvesting our Anishinaabe foods and stuff. I teach Ojibwe muin at our uh local uh Anishinaabe university, and um I teach language and culture and harvesting stuff and occasional other random classes. Um I got four kids, they're all uh growing up now. I got my oldest is 20, and then uh my secondborn son is 16. He just recently got his license in a car, so we're up late worrying all the time. We got uh uh one daughter, and she's the queen of the universe according to her. Yeah one uh our baby boy is 10, and he's uh fourth grade, just finished fourth grade at Waduka Dotting, so that's where all of our kids went to school as long as they could, and we only got one young enough still there. Wadukadin currently goes up to uh ninth grade, so our three three older older ones are older than that already. So but uh I worked at the Wadu Kading school for seven years and I volunteered there for a couple years before that, and I still volunteer there now. I'm still actively involved with our uh language immersion school that we have here, so currently serving K through nine. I'm helping out now with the adult side of things over at the university and helping to teach the next crop, the next uh next batch of language warriors out of northern Wisconsin. So a lot of good work going on in the region, you know, a lot of uh successful efforts popping up here and there with a lot of our neighboring communities, and it's getting uh exciting. We're not the only ones anymore for a long time. That's the also one of the sweet where there was young people, but we're starting to get bigger numbers across the territory. So it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Oh yeah, so we have heard a little bit about well, you've shared a little bit about who you are. Um, for those of I don't know who wouldn't know who you are, honestly, at this point, but maybe for some new people who are listening. Um and uh we were just um wanting to kind of talk about how we all met or how our paths crossed, um, to give some context. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:19

Oh, gonna budget ooging. Is that right? Yeah, I think I first met Ponty and Anne Arbor for the Algonquin conference, and I was the first one I ever went to. I was really green, didn't know anything. They just kind of met up with the other Shnobs and everybody else who couldn't understand what the linguists were talking about. So um, and then I met the two of you a few must have been a few years later at Oog, um, the Ojibwe Motida camp and up in Kloquay, I believe.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Yeah, yeah. I still well, I was reminiscing on it today, and I was like, yeah, just thinking about sitting with you in the assessments and and whatnot, because you were, I think, doing those at the time at the beginning and at the end, and and then I think um big drum. I think we showed up.

SPEAKER_05 9:28

I think we came down to LCO, yeah. Oh yeah, I forgot all about the summertime too, right? Yeah, yeah, it was nice. We're getting ready for that same dance will be next weekend here. Oh wow, so yeah, I forgot all about that. You guys came right to the holy pins here. Yeah, I just uh ooh at their assessments. I was always the guy that made everybody super uncomfortable and it was so awkward, you know. They would just have me do that, so I I couldn't even hang out or you know, get to know anybody, I just come in and turn on the recorder.

SPEAKER_04 10:10

Yeah, I remember meeting at the Agum conference and then um just briefly and then met again at Oog, and then we had some mutual friends that you knew through Powell you used to sing with. And uh I think you came in the first time I went to Oog, you came in uh to sub in for a week there for the grammar portion.

SPEAKER_05 10:38

Was the one-gabo must have been unavailable or something, huh?

SPEAKER_04 10:41

Yeah, yeah, and then just kind of came in and helped with blow our minds of what uh next level uh grammar instruction looks like, whereas we never we never really got that. And I don't know if it's even available in Ontario Stow, but you know, we're we're re we have to raise our bar up here. Uh but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:08

Yeah, that's cool. It was always such a tough gig, you don't have to people from all over the place, you know, and everybody comes with their own little twang, you know. So it made it fun though, made it real fun, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Nice, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:23

So maybe we can talk about now your learning journey and then how and why did you begin learning with?

SPEAKER_05 11:31

Yeah, I think we were lucky around these parts. Um, when we were kids, you had quite a few of the older folks that spoke it, right? And so it wasn't uh it wasn't uncommon to hear people chatting in Ojibwe and laughing, and if you know where you're at bingo or you're at the the store, the tribal office, and all you know, old people, and they're always laughing. And you know, you grew up around that, and then I was kind of a curious, nerdy kid that paid attention and asked a lot of questions. We had class, you know, in school and stuff, but it was never anything really effective. But it I always paid attention to stuff young, you know, so I knew a lot of words coming out of the my youth, and then um my particular family I'm from is pretty heavily involved with uh ceremonial stuff, you know. So we were as kids we went to the dances and um the big drum halls, and um you got to hear those talks, and so of course I got uh put on as a singer and had to sit there and sing as a young guy, and it was almost like overnight all the elders that we relied on to do all the speeches and talks and all that important stuff on the ceremonial side of things, um you know, started checking out on us, and that responsibility started to fall down the line, and I felt that pressure, you know. As a young guy, I was supposed to go to law school. I tell everybody that, you know, the creator had a different pat different plan for me. So kind of get pushed in those different directions. And then as I as I got a little older and started in uh, you know, I was picking up Ojibwe pretty quick. I had uh a great uncle of mine, Bajiki Bun, who was top-notch Ojibwe speaker. Um, and I had you know 100% unlimited access to this old man. I could ask him anything I wanted in the world, you know, and he'd have he'd have a pretty dang good answer, uh, even before I knew anything about grammar or anything like that, you know. Uh, but that old man really got excited about my my desire to learn and what really supported me. So I picked his brain all the time. I got all these notebooks uh asking him stuff how to say. And um, when he passed away, that's when I kind of got pulled into the the field of linguistics, you know. It was just kind of like coincidence, you know. We say we don't believe in coincidence, but it was just really uh freakish how everything worked out and uh the path was sort of paved for me to go, you know. And uh so I got through my experience in linguistics, I got uh had you know my graduate school work, I got acquainted with just the most outstanding elders we had left in our territory, and um got to spend you know hours and hours and days and weeks and whatnot recording them and um transcribing stuff and you know making friendships. And um, so those those elders with me in the pretty good shape, you know. I could limp along in Ojibwe pretty good before I ever had a class or anything like that. I could I could get by pretty good just from hanging around. And um, I remember the first I only took two Ojibwe classes ever. People are like, What? I only took two language classes, yeah. Ojibwe like to this day, yeah. I had to go Ojibwe one and Ojibwe two, and that's all I needed, man. I just needed somebody with the roadmap, and uh the language instructor I had was a real grammar god, man. His name's Asiban, he's still around here, he's one of our uh elected officials now, but um he he was a real, really, really deep knowledge of the grammar, and that's what I needed was that on the board, you know, because I had the I had the sound already and I could understand, I could get the gist of everything, but the the pieces, you know, like I couldn't I couldn't make sense of the structure. And when he put it on the board, it was like, whoa, that's all I needed, man. And to know that there was rules and there were patterns, and after that, I was off and running, you know. And then uh yeah, I started um working on the dictionary project in the in the Twin Cities when I was in grad school, and that really opened up my opened up my eyes and ears to all of the beautiful variation of how our language is spoken, you know, from place to place and among different generations. Uh yeah, really, really cool um experience and a sort of nick of time, you know. A lot of those old people that I worked with aren't aren't around anymore. So um thank God every day for the time I got to spend with them. But yeah, that's kind of how it happened for me. And then, you know, so I was pretty competent Ojibwe speaker. Um coming out of grad school, I could I could get along just about anywhere. But then um when my my children started school at Wadukarari, my oldest boy Niju, um, he started in first grade there, which is generally late. They won't let you sign up late. Um, but if you if you have like an in-home family commitment to using the language, then they'll kind of make an exception for you, you know. So we we begged and pleaded our way in there to let them take our boy a couple years late, and they did, and we sort of committed to uh meeting them halfway at home, you know, and with the with the language, and that's where my language ability really took off was just having that new demand to spontaneously create with it every day, you know. And then once he started at the school, then um I started volunteering. They had a little school drum, and uh on Fridays I try to get home from grad school and make it in time to help out and sing drum class. And um, from the end, I still had all these old guys around that were like Hall of Fame singers, so I was getting all these awesome words for use around a drum, and so I could sort of facilitate a immersion uh drum experience, right? So I did that for a couple of years before I ever let them pay me. You know, they were trying to pay me as like a helper, a contractor, but I didn't think my language was worth getting paid for because I I couldn't talk, you know, not that well yet. And so I volunteered for a couple years and then uh yeah, and then they were starting to add uh middle school, and when they got the plans together to add middle school, that's when they came and recruited me to come home. I was teaching uh Ojibwe and Duluth at the College of Saints Glasgow. I had a real nice gig up there on top of the hill, and they come and drug me back home to the Riz where I belong. I uh what worked at Wadu Kadari, and that's where my language just took off, you know what I mean? Like every day, all day. Um, you just don't even really think about it after a while. And I tell all my students that like the day is coming where it's it's easy, you don't really gotta think about it. But the only way to get there is to make the muscle strong and do the lifting, you know. So um, but that's what really took off. You know, I owe so much to my experience at the school. Um incredible, highly recommended.

SPEAKER_04 18:39

Yeah, like we could do a whole episode probably on we do cadotting. Maybe that would be another time. Yeah. When did you or why did you uh feel like it was important to speak to your kids? Did you did you always know that you're gonna speak to them, or did that kind of just one day you just like were like, Yeah, I want to have kids and I'm gonna speak to them in Ojibwe?

SPEAKER_05 19:05

No, man, like to be honest with you, when I was younger, I didn't even think it was possible to be able to learn Ojibwe well enough to speak it to my kids. Like, and it was Keller, it was Keller and Lisa and their whole launch in a waduka dotting. I remember standing in Hayward, which is our little border town right outside the research. I was standing in there, and uh waduka dotting used at this time it was only K2, so they only went up second grade, and um, we were out by this little pond where this little park is in Hayward, and they come marching down the hill with these kids, right? And there was like 10, 15 kids, and Keller and them were all hollering at the kids in Ojibwe, and the kids are answering back. And I was just like, Whoa, man, what the heck was that? You know what I mean? And here I was already learning Ojibwe the best I could, but it was like, wow, like it had never crossed my mind that people could get good enough at it to use it every day, you know, especially in a school. So, you know, the whole experience of learning our language, you you gotta constantly reset your goals, you gotta set those realist realistic goals on a daily, right? And then constantly reset them, otherwise you just plateau and you just get stuck in the same old routine phrases and stuff that you're comfortable with, right? So um it was through seeing that, it was like, wow, man, they're really doing it. And then we were in Perkins one time, and it was it was a few years before we had kids. We were um sitting in a restaurant, and right over on the next table is Keller Lisa and their little boy, they had a little boy a few years before we did, and he was probably like two, and you know, Perkins has the big uh menus with all the pictures on there. They were they were telling them their little boy, you know, what's all on the menu and whatever he wanted. He was pointing at stuff and asking stuff, and I was just like blown away, man. Like, holy crap, they're freaking raising their kids to talk our language, you know. So right away, boom, goal reset, you know, like damn it, they can do it, they're showing us we could do that, you know. So then at the same time, I had that pressure on myself to learn it good enough because I didn't want to talk some crazy old pigeon ojibway to my kids, you know. I wanted to at least become comprehensible, you know, and be able people be able to understand us or whatever. So uh I, you know, just kind of up my game, kept going harder. And then um when my first son was born, I would I was really in the midst of learning, and he would ask me questions. I wasn't good enough yet to, you know, like raise them as an L1, but um, he would ask me all these questions and just really push my learning, and I was you know making lists and just hammering stuff out daily, and I had those old people around to ask questions. And then when my second son came along, that's when I was like, boom, I'm committing to this. This little dude's only gonna hear me talk with Jibwe. And he was probably like three by the time I ever spoke English to him, you know. So um, and he started Waduka Dotting at three. So by the time he came along, they had the pre-K program in place. So he really took off. That's my boy Money Dude, and he's um he's the actor on Rosetta Stone, you know, the um software that Malax put out, so the main character in those videos. That's my my secondborn. So he's pretty strong um in that in that area. Um, and then you know, my two younger ones come along, they just went in there the same way, you know. So um I think it's like when you see what it does for the kids, it it creates like a confidence and a poise that is just doesn't come from anywhere else, you know. And um, people will say that about our kids like if you give our kids a pinch of tobacco and ask them to do your invocation at your powow or ask them to tell you a winter story. I mean, that's something they could get up and do in front of thousands of people. Um US normal raised kids to do that kind of stuff, and they're usually really shy and really uh more reserved and lack uh lack a lot of that confidence that comes with the language, you know. And um I think people will look to like academic test scores and you know, sort of more colonial measures of success. Um, but that's just not it for me. You know, I'm I'm not one of those guys. And the academic success and all the test scores and all the positives that do that you can measure with colonial sort of tools, um, that's more of a uh outcome of the work, right? And the the goal is actual language survival and actual survival of the people. That's the goal, the the academic success comes with it, you know what I mean. That's they'll naturally sort of have that if they're comfortable with who they are and where they're from and what they know. And um, yeah, I think it's a real powerful thing, you know, when you connect connect kids to that, and um all the harvest stuff that we do with the kids and the um the spiritual stuff, you know, and they get their first rabbit, for instance, you know, it'll be a whole feast and honor the kids and their their uh families invited, and it's like a rite of passage, you know, kind of thing. And um just stuff you don't get in mainstream school systems, you know, or our kids that succeed in the mainstream, it's because they walk the line, right? It's because they sort of blend in or they may be the good, you know, the good kids from the res. And then there's always the group uh all of the rest of us, you know, the naughty kids that don't walk the line, you know. So uh, you know, in those in those schools, you don't really see the behavior stuff in the in the um, you know, that I mean you get squirrely luggy bodies, silly wag, you know, but nothing too bad, you know. So I think it does a lot. Even uh the beh you know, the just the manners. If you were to walk into an immersion class in full swing, um, it's just a more well-mannered group than a mainstream class, you know, especially if the visitors are older, you know, like the respect for elders is um incredible among those those kids, you know. So it does a lot for a man, and I'm really excited to see what the future brings, you know, because right I think it was last year or the year before, I think it was two years ago at Waducadar, and they celebrated their first alumni coming back to work there, and in the same year, their first alumni sending their kid to school there. So they're getting to the point now where your little kindergartners coming in, some of them were uh are the kids of you know kindergarten kids 20 22 years ago, you know. So that's cool, man. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Yeah, well while Kaj was uh at ATEC and um Keller was at ATEC and presenting, and he he shared that, and that was uh like a mind-blowing moment.

SPEAKER_05 26:05

Yeah, miles probably yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Oh my goodness. Um, not to divert, but um bajikaba jinakaza, jinakaza was that yeah, yeah, your first your first teacher.

SPEAKER_05 26:23

Yeah, well, you know, and if I if we were gonna go first teachers, it'd be uh there'd be a whole bunch more before that because we had so many that were involved with us when we were kids, you know. And uh Bijiki Bon, I would say, was my first elder that really took me under his wing, you know, as a as a language mentor. Um, whereas language teachers, I lots of teachers um over the years. Um, but yeah, he was the one, you know, the first one I ever opened up a notebook and started asking questions and trying to make some sense of the world.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Yeah, well, that's what I was gonna ask. Was like you said that you hadn't been in a an actual like um class up until then, and then you had um did you say Esteban, who was the the who showed you the grammar?

SPEAKER_03 27:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Um, so up until that point, were you just like asking and pulling from all over? Or did you already kind of have a sense of like the structure, or were you just like pulling everything you could and writing everything down?

SPEAKER_05 27:25

I was starting to get suspicious, like because I would sit there and this, you know, Bajiki Bun, he was probably 80 by the time I started going hard with him, right? And I'd ask him in a buckade, and he'd say, Yeah, I said what's that mean? I'm hungry, and it's the stuff I knew, right? I'd ask him questions I knew, and then I'd say, Buckadeon. What's that mean? And he'd say, I'm hungry. And I said, What's the difference, man? Buckade, buckade on, and he'd say, I don't know, Mike, that's how we say it, you know. So I didn't have he didn't have that structural knowledge. Most of the great speakers don't, unless they're in engaged in teaching, right? And I was the first knucklehead that came along and started pestering this old man about the language, so he didn't have that consciousness about the structure, so he wasn't the one to ask those kind of questions. But that was the level that I was on when he was around. And um, you know, a lot of the questions I asked him were like phrase-level stuff, like stuff I needed to say in case these old guys didn't show up to dance hall, you know, was it was the quickest speech I could give and still get away with it, kind of thing. Um, you know, and then I had other questions from you know, just growing up, hearing stuff and uh asking them stuff how to translate stuff, like little sayings and stuff. Um, but yeah, he was really, really patient, you know, and just really excited. Like sometimes you get elders. Um, I've had other elders that were just sick of um their time being wasted, you know, like people asking them the same old stuff and not getting anywhere with their language, you know, and he could just tell, you know. Um whereas Harold is, you know, Bajiki Bunny was really, really giving of his time and you know, just excited to have somebody who was interested, I think, you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Yeah, no, thanks. I was just kind of for myself and yeah, I was just kind of trying to paint the picture a little bit better to know like where where you were really how it all kind of formed in that in that way, because like you said, um, I can imagine at that point in time, no one had really kind of figured that out even at that point, especially speakers who I wouldn't be able to tell you English structure unless like I can now because I'm looking into it, but just because I speak English doesn't necessarily mean that I know all the all the linguistical parts of it. Um yeah, sorry, I just wanted to ask you that because I was like, whoa, I I totally didn't like everyone has a different learning journey, right? So I just This clarifying Nikwetch. Um yeah, sorry, I kind of um digressed there. Not I just skipped this over a little, building that picture a little bit better.

SPEAKER_04 30:11

Yeah, so could you talk about maybe some of the challenges of uh trying to raise your children using Ojibwe?

SPEAKER_05 30:19

Yeah, I think um had it not been for the school, I don't think my kids would have absorbed as much. Um, because outside of the school um was their main interlocutor, right? I was the main one speaking Ojibwe. My wife, she speaks a little bit Ojibwe and you know, do do what she could, but I was the main one, like really insisting on it. And uh outside, right, everything is English, unless unless you have a space like that with the school and the families and everything that goes along with it. Um, it's kind of like us against the world, you know, against the whole damn current of everything. And um, so that's always the challenge, right? We don't have the cartoons, we don't have the video games, you can't compete with TikTok. And um one thing you notice is that depending on their age and the context, like my kids, even to this day, my older ones, it's all about the domain and it's all about who's around, right? Like I can talk Ojibwe to them all day, every day, but they pick how they answer. And when when they were like little snot-nosed middle schoolers, right, I would just not even accept the English and wait for them to ask. And then they got to the point where if they were gonna ask me for anything, if they could go stay at the friends or have somebody over, then they come ask me in Ojibwe, because I must have been more inclined to let them if they asked me in Ojibwe, right? And um, but they go through these phases where they'll they'll they'll be a certain age where they're really excited to use it, and it doesn't matter who's around. Um, and then they get in these other phases, they get a little bit older. Well, they'll use it when they feel like it's expected, right? Or but not if they don't have to. Um, so like certain people are around, they'll use it just to kind of um enforce whatever position they're in or whatever. Um, but yeah, so you go through that, and that's just the part of the maturing process of kids, and that's what all the the experts out there, like Hawaii, New Zealand, they'll tell you the same thing, right? They you gotta get them through eighth grade before they have the maturity level to realize what they have is special. Um, whereas when they're little, it's just the way my mom and dad talk, or the way we talk at school, or you know, they don't really have the full um all the loaded sort of power that comes with a kid that knows their tribal language, you know. So um, yeah, I think there's all those challenges, you know, and then um I feel as a traveler who goes all over the place, um I definitely feel that connection to place, and the further we get away from our Nishana kingdom, the the weirder it is to me. Um, so and I felt that a few different places when I traveled around. We were in Ireland in March, and I wanted to know Irish when I was in Ireland, you know what I mean? It was like that connection to place, and everybody around you laughing and their language is like, man, you feel left out of that. And then when I get home, it just feels natural, you know, in our own community, in our own woods, in the water, you know, wherever we're at, it just feels right to use our language. So it's definitely in my mind and my thinking, it's definitely connected, you know, the language in place. Um and I think the kids feel that too. And there's like certain domains, certain spaces where they feel comfortable using it in other other times, maybe not so much, or awkward, depending on what our friend group is and who's around and all that stuff. So tough being a kid these days, I think, you know, whereas when we were kids, I don't think we would have had half the things to worry about or who was following us on this app or liking our stuff on this one, you know. We were all not we were all not liking each other when we were kids.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Yeah, I guess like are there any things that you didn't expect to that have happened since you began raising um your children in an immersive environment and sending them to wadooka dotting? Um, was there anything that like showed up in your guys' path that you just like was very unexpected in a positive way that you didn't foresee whatsoever?

SPEAKER_05 34:46

Yeah, I think um like the older the kids get, the more that they get it, you know, and I think that's something that as a parent, I always expected them to know all along and feel it, know it, and get it, what it's all about. But I think the older they get, they look around, and the more they travel, and the more they see different communities, they realize like, holy crap, man, that what they did for us is different. You know, what they did for us is something a little more special and really unique, you know. Our kids, um, I don't know. Sometimes as a parent, you don't really appreciate the the pony show, so to speak, like oh kids be good. Just we say something, how do you say blueberry pie? You know, and as parents like, come on, man, it's it's weird, you know. Um, so but I think they the as far as my kids are have have done so far, they've they've handled that all pretty good about being, you know, some somehow special kids that know how to talk their language, but um, I think the older they get, they they realize how how lucky they are, and I'm I'm uh grateful for that, you know, because I would hate for them to grow up and you know just kind of run from it or not want anything to do with it. So um yeah, I think uh I think in the further they go with the immersion school, you know, the like up to ninth grade now, none of my kids had the opportunity to go that far. But I think the further they go with that, as soon as they get through to 12th grade, like that's just gonna do incredible kick things for those youth that get to experience that, you know. Wow, because all of those kids feel their connection to their school, you know, they love their school and they're like so excited about their school, and it's not really a common theme among too many res kids around here, you know. So I think that's cool. I think there's there's the the best days are in front of us as far as I'm concerned, you know. I think uh we always talk about the good old days a hundred years ago when everybody spoke our language, but it's like, man, 100 years ago, our our people had it rough, you know, and then well, what about 200 years, 300 years? Like every generation has their own troubles, their own stuff that they live through. But I think as a people, the best days are yet to come, you know, and um the more kids we bring up like this, and you know, a lot of people talk the whole uh decolonize sort of line, and but I think that the the idea that's really gonna move people is the sort of re-indigenize the space and recontextualize the language, right? And uh so we're moving into the future, like it or not, right? You're not gonna convince any Shinabs to go live in the woods in the wigwam and haw water every day when they could stay in their air conditioning and turn the water on in the faucet, right? Like people don't want to go backwards, we're moving forward, but what are we bringing with us, you know? And that's that's kind of been my angle through all of this. Is like, is our does our language get to come with? Like, I hope so. Um, but we are the only ones that get to determine that now, you know, it's not the man keeping us down, it's not the council that hasn't put up the money, it's us as individuals, you know. What are we gonna do? But are we gonna bring it with us? Because council's not, you know, the the governor's not, you know, or whoever else, funders, whatever else we're relying on, they're not gonna bring our language with us. We are. Um, so I think the schools play a heavy hand in that, you know, our immersion schools and families and real excited to see what the kids do with their kids, you know, because that's really the slam dunk victory. All we can do is do our damnedest to pass it on to that next generation of our kids, you know. And if they do pass it on to their kids, like, man, that's a real victory dancer.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Yeah, no kidding.

SPEAKER_04 38:42

Um yeah, like for sure, like bringing it, like what are we gonna bring? Like that kind of resonates, and I think that'll resonate with a lot of people. Like, what are we gonna bring forward with us? Uh, what would your kind of some advice would be for parents who are wanting to do, you know, raise their kids in the language?

SPEAKER_05 39:04

Yeah, I'd say um go as hard as you can go, you know, and a lot of people like if you don't have any language ability at all, right? And people will start with labels and then um re like reset, right? So once you know how to say door, then take off the label and put uh gibakwan on there or bakakwan on there, put some kind of verb to go with it, right? And start expanding. Um I think uh you know, if you're talking language learning as parents, you know, while simultaneously simultaneously being parents, um, then you gotta really um dedicate yourself because otherwise you you you're your main model, you're your kids' main model for language use, you know. So um feel that pressure as a healthy pressure, you know, don't stress yourself out about it or beat yourself up about your limitations. Use that as the fuel that pushes you to to work harder, you know. Um, and then uh always seek seek out more, you know, never never be content with your own ability because I just want to manage Tommy. There's always a better way to say it. And that you know, that that really made me think as a linguist, like he's right, you know, there's always a better way to say it, like there's always a a fancier, more sophisticated, more eloquent way to say anything in any language, right? Not just Ojibwe, but in English, uh, any language, you can there's always a fancier way to say it. And um keep that keep that in mind as you're learning, you know, because otherwise you'll get stuck in a where you think it's a one plus one equals one sort of relationship between the languages, and it really isn't, you know. Keep your mind open, keep your uh skin thick, you know, because man, there's some miserable creatures out there. You know, so you got you gotta have thick skin and all this, man. You know, uh, because you know, you got so many no-addells and so many uh whatever, you know. Um you don't do it for them and you don't you don't live for them. So keep that in mind, you know. You know, they're you're doing something right if you if they're you're on their mind, you know, they're hitting on you. So uh but yeah, you gotta have to skin in it, man. Um find uh elders or at least people that are more proficient than you, you know, you can't you can't uh really grow in the language without having that demand on your ears, too, you know, because um speaking to your kids is only one-way communication. If you don't get it back from somewhere else, then you're gonna you're gonna have a stunted growth there too, you know. So always look for your own quality input to be coming in. And some of us don't have access to people anymore. Some of us live in areas where um we don't have any more um elders who are accessible, you know. And um if that's the case, you know, then you gotta make you gotta make other sort of arrangements as far as you know, recordings, um, whatever sort of webinars kind of things you can do, zoom stuff, groups, whatever. Um, because it's impossible, in my opinion, it's impossible to really learn a language without having the demand to understand it. Otherwise, you'd be one of these weirdos that can say a million things but can't have to understand much, you know. Um, you know, that's really a sign too, you see, in among teachers and um other language learners where they can say more. It's usually what I call like a danger sign, you know, or a red flag when when people can say more than they can understand, um, because that shows that they have a demand to constantly use it, but um, don't have a demand of anybody speaking to them. Um, and you get that in some of the immersion efforts if they're not well staffed, or you know, you put put put a newbie in there that doesn't have anybody helping them grow, um, or they can say a million things in Ojibwe, but have a real hard time understanding something simple, even you know.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

No, those were awesome. I I was like I had like four questions and you answered all of them in that one in that one answer, um, or many answers that you you gave. Um many connections are forming right now as you speak, and a lot of things are resonating for me. Yeah, because I've experienced like as many of us have a lot of those things, especially uh um with the journey that I've had. So yeah, I'm like, it's uh super powerful and really good for me to hear. And hopefully others that are listening as well. I'm kind of going back way back. Um, I wanted to ask you a question about when you said you speak to your um sometimes you wouldn't answer your children uh if they spoke English to you. Were they at a point in their own learning that they were fully capable of asking in the language what they were needing or able to get it across?

SPEAKER_05 44:02

Yeah, yeah. So usually how it goes is we'd spend all day long at school talking Ojibwe, and then we come home and I'd say something to them and answer in English and um, you know, try try to dig my heels in and make them yeah, so I it wasn't any sort of unfair thing where I'm ignoring them because they don't know how to say it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

Yeah, I'm just getting some context before I I ask you. Um so so they're able to to ask and whatnot. So um was there anything like in particular, anything you got like did you just straight up ignore or like because this is something I don't know if our like our kids are maybe all the time able to ask the questions. Um I think it's there, they just having a hard time speaking. And so I have tried that in the past, and I was just kind of curious like how you approach that where you won't accept kind of you you're waiting for them to speak in the language. Is there any kind of or was there anything else to that that made that successful?

SPEAKER_05 45:04

Yeah, I think um one of the strategies is like what they call a recast. So if they come ask you something that isn't well formed, or in this case it would be in English, like say they said uh um Gegu and Domijin, and they forgot the enough, right? If they're asking to go dig in the fridge or they wanted to, but they forgot the enough, and then you can recast the question, right? This one I picked up from Gimme One at Waducadarin when he was there, kids would always come up and they'd say, Inda zaga um, you know, they're asking to go to the bathroom, but they forgot the enough, you know. So uh gimme one would say, Giguidwe, you know, you know, obviously, like, are you asking? And then the kids would be like, Oh, in the zaga, you know. Um, so I remember doing that a lot with my kids, is like, dad can maybe spend the night, oh we peanut button, maybe, and then you know, kind of like feed them what what it is they're trying to say and then make it make them say it back kind of thing. Um yeah, different strategies. One thing is you know, I'm a a linguist by training, and I've had all kinds of classes and nerdy workshops and stuff on language proficiency, language acquisition growth, and that kind of stuff. So I've been force-fed all of this stuff as a student, as a teacher, as you know, as a working professional now, and um, so I don't think everybody has that sort of wired into them the same way, you know. So um yeah, I think that's an important thing to keep in mind as parents too, is network with other um parents that can give you that that sort of um perspective and feedback. Because I can't imagine, you know, what a nightmare or disaster I would have been had I not uh paid attention to some of those classes, some of those trainings, uh, you know, working with kids and their their language growth kind of thing. But yeah, you know when you know when they're being lazy and you know when they're cutting corners and you know when they're uh when they're just not, you know, when they're refusing to to try, you know. And I was I've never been, even with my adult learners, um, I've never been the over-corrective type. I had a instructor that was um really insistent, and this was in a curriculum and instruction class, and she was really you know, totally unrelated to Ojibwe, but uh she was really insistent on um uh meaning over form. So when you have learners, especially vulnerable learners or insecure learners, or um, you know, as Nishinaabe, we come to the language learning table with so much baggage, so much trauma, right? Like a lot of our learners are really delicate. As instructors, we got to be cautious of that. Um, but she gave me that advice in one of her classes where she said, uh, meaning over form, and you know, that means if you can make meaning of what they're trying to say, don't shoot them down, correcting them, you know, communicate with them, reply to them. And um, whereas I think we're so wired for the grammar in the Ojibwe circles that you know somebody forgets to put a right marker on the word or somebody, you know, or you use the wrong damn animacy for the whatever, you know what I mean? Like everybody freaks out if you uh make a speech error kind of thing. And whereas in the world language sector, um, you know, when people are dealing with majority languages, that's not how it works, right? If you got some immigrant come up to you on the street speaking broken language, don't stop and correct them, right? Trying to figure out what they're trying to say to you and help them out and reply to them. So being more like that minded with our with our students, you know, so meaning over forming with the kids too, you know, like so if the kids are making their creating um with language and making meaning with language, don't shoot them down, you know, help them. And there's all kinds of re you know, like I said, a recast, or you can say it back in a more proper way, but in a way that isn't rude or correcting, you know, oh, you know, the you imagine a gag, you know, yeah, kind of you're gonna go, you know, not maybe in the gim give me one way, uh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:38

I have a kind of question along those lines, like what do you think about so as parents, like we want to be perfect, right? Like if we're gonna pass it on, we want to be perfect, and we get all this anxiety that we're not saying enough or not using enough. But your thoughts on like do kids need that the perfect language, you know, like maybe even like I don't know the the teacher proficiency level that we do good auditing, but like what the kids are exposed to, or even at home, like I know some people feel like okay, if I'm not perfect and I'm not fluent, then I shouldn't speak at all.

SPEAKER_05 50:24

Yeah, I think um I think with Anishinaabe, we have such a high value of our language that um we don't want it to change. And as younger people kind of responsible for do or die, right? Um, we're silly to think like that. And as a linguist, I've been around all the opinions, right? And um the language is changing, they're changing the language. It's it that's a necessary step of the survival process. Um, and it's not anybody intentionally changing the language, right? But this is the first time ever in the history of our people where we're learning our language, um, as a second language where we're learning our language. You know, those of us who speak Ojibwe are all bilingual now, and that's the first time in the history of our people that everybody who speaks our language also speaks English. That's the first. And uh everything changes, everything changes. The English language has changed within our own lifetimes, right? And nobody's batting an eye at it because English is a safe language, but with Nishnaabin, people don't want it to change and they want it to freeze in time, and and it it's always been changing, right? We have the historical records to show that um that our language has changed significantly in the past couple generations, and that's okay, it's okay. Um, so I think the more at peace we are with that, um, the easier it is learning and limping along and trying the best with our kids because it's it's gonna change and the world has changed. And how is the language even gonna serve its purpose if it doesn't change along with the world? They say in in linguistics in the study, all language is is a tool for communication, that's all it is. When that tool no longer fits the needs of communication among its users, they shift to a new tool. And with our experience as a people, that shift has been a force shift. We didn't sign up for that, we didn't pick, we didn't decide one day, oh, our language doesn't work, we're gonna go use a different one. Um, that was a force kind of shift. So when you keep that in mind, the language is a tool for communication as an Ishnaabi. It's our tool for spiritual communication too. So it has this added sort of weight to it, this or added value to it. But everything about us has changed. We don't dress the same anymore, we don't eat the same anymore, we don't sleep in the same sort of places we do anymore, and like everything has changed. The light the language was changing just fine naturally. Um, if you think about right after post-sort of colonial contact, all the things that were introduced to our people via trade um with the French at first, we came up with names for all that stuff, right? Stuff we never had in our culture. Our our ancestors gave it names and um found new ways to talk about stuff. So we have always been an adapting people. And when you look at the languages in North America, indigenous languages, a lot more, a lot more languages are are willing to borrow loan words from the colonial languages, more so than Ojibwe. Like Ojibwe has always Ojibwe speakers have always had this sense of pride of being able to come up with ways to say stuff so they didn't have to use English. And uh I've always taken pride in that, you know. Um, so yeah, I think we get really insecure about our our own um our own, and I think everybody involved in the movement from the elders to the newbies, everybody's insecure. Nobody's super confident in who they are and what they know anymore. I mean, that's the nature of endangered language revitalization. Everybody's you know, just barely hanging on, man. And um, we gotta be more uh forgiving of ourselves and better to ourselves and um less hard on one another, you know, because there's so many critical voices out there that really don't get us anywhere, just make us more insecure, you know. And you get teachers like that too, that just make all the students insecure. And it's like, man, that's not a that's not a healthy approach, you know. So yeah, we're trying to make it fun, man. Try to make it fun and not a drag and um really a safe sort of environment for learning. So keep all the negativity out of it, you know. But I think it's natural to be insecure, it's natural to doubt yourself. But um, I really have a different perspective when it comes to language change, you know. I think that's a necessary part of the survival. And then the whole theory of human nature, anything that doesn't change starts to die. So when when something stops changing, it starts dying. So change is a healthy thing, and I think that's harsh on the ears of a lot of our sort of orthodox Ishanabe um who think oh nothing can change, but and I don't mean to offend anybody or uh, but that's that's my personal opinion. It's it's underway and no human being can stop it. You know, it's just people are gonna do what they can, what they can, the best they can with their language, and it's not gonna sound like grandma's language, but we'll still keep trying, we'll keep trying to make it sound like grandma's, but um, I didn't have the same opportunity to learn it the way that grandma did. So I'll speak it the best way I can, you know.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

Uh no, I was just um gonna say, so just use what you got and any advice for if you're finding gaps in like what you're wanting to say.

SPEAKER_05 56:11

Keep track of everything you don't know how to say. That's that's your that's gold, you know. Um keep track. And I'm a I'm a big pusher of the little notebooks or the iPhone file folders, you know, like keeping track of what you don't know how to say, because the minute you get around somebody who knows a little more than you, you got all kinds of questions for them. Like, I think one of the worst things that happen is when people actually get access to elders and then don't know what to say, you know. And it's like, oh, I got all these words. I was just talking to my baby the other day, and I didn't know how to we saw this on the street, or you know, like I used to keep track, I still keep I got a whole list of um words on my phone of when I get around the right people, I'll pull it out and try to fill in the blanks. But that's just as important of keeping track of your new words as keeping track of what you don't know how to say, and the only way you can reveal that stuff to yourself is by pushing yourself. So uh telling stories is where I really, really grew with my ability to speak at length because every time you're telling a story, something will pop up, like, man, how do you say all of a sudden or in the meantime, or you know, back at the ranch or whatever? Um back at the ranch, whatever story you're telling, you know, something's always gonna pop up that it stumps yourself, you know, keep track of it and then ask your favorite elder next time you see them. Um yeah, that's that's good advice for language. You gotta be kind of like psycho about it, you know, because in this day and age, nobody's gonna give it to you, and you're only gonna you're only gonna know what you go out there and get. Um that's it.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

Yeah, running around a tag bugging elders for how do you say that, yeah, it's a wi-fi number one stumper.

SPEAKER_05 57:53

Oh I was just gonna say you guys get a word for Wi-Fi yet? I've been asking everybody. We got a word for internet, but uh how you hook up to it, we don't have. And I think it's weird for schnob speakers because Wi-Fi literally is connection without touching, and all of our Ojibwe sort of morphemes that have to do with connection literally involve touching. So when it comes to the concept of Wi-Fi, it's super weird, man. So keep me posted if you guys want to come up with one. We'll use it over here. Wiffy, no, you're good. They'd say you go walk in a restaurant or something.

SPEAKER_04 58:31

Wiffy and I'm a good yeah, it's like uh coming up with these new words. Like I think like you guys, like I see cur some curriculum stuff online from out west, and I think you guys have more kind of words for things because you know you gotta teach the kids and you know Jibway these things. And sometimes I go to the elders here, like South Southern Ontario area, and they'll be like, no, no, it doesn't make sense, or no, we we wouldn't say that. And I'll be like, okay, well, how would you say that? And they'll be like, I don't know, but we we wouldn't say that. So there's those challenges too of like going to elders, and I'm sure you've come across that too, elders that are like, no, we wouldn't say that, or we we have no concept of that.

SPEAKER_05 59:21

Heck yeah, all the time, man. And uh that's good. I think you you you'll you you you meet and you get to know elders, right? And all the elders you meet and that are willing to teach you, it's all good, it's all great. Listen as best you can and learn as much as you can. But in all those travels and all those experiences and relationships, you'll meet elders who have that special gift of sort of working with us, right? And it takes a special kind to put up with us, you know. And uh thankfully, I've had uh opportunity to meet several of them that were gifted in this in this way. And uh when we would come up with stuff, we would often come up with like the proposal, right? Well, could we say it like this? And we'd come up with our best version, which usually triggered something for them. No, man, nothing like that, but say it like this, you know, or they fix it for us, kind of thing. Um but yeah, I think elders really have to feel that need for it, right? Like, okay, I'm not gonna give you a word for zebra. We don't even have them in our woods. Um, but if they were sitting in a class of six-year-olds and that zebra is the only damn animal in the classroom that you didn't have a Ojibwe name for it, then they'd probably play along, you know, and give you a way to call it. Um, but a context is everything, you know. And if you um elders that aren't involved in the movement um may not, you know, see what we're trying to do or even understand the level in which we're trying to do it. Um whereas the ones that get to experience that, they're like, you know, wow, they get some sort of um you know drive of their own for what they do. So yeah, I got to hang around with some pretty awesome wordsmiths, so it's pretty awesome wordsmith projects, you know, coming up with all kinds of crazy words, you know. Uh yeah. But I think it's like anything, you know, like any language, people are gifted in different ways, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:27

Um, you talk about, you know, or we talked a little bit about anxiety. I don't know, you seem like you're pretty you don't get anxious or anything. You seem pretty laid back and pretty in tune. Um, but have you ever felt like in your learning journey, like, oh, I'm never gonna get there, or you know, that kind of down, and how did you kind of get yourself out?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:54

Yeah, I think um everybody gets anxiety and spooks. Some people just hide it better than others. And I think with my experience, I got put up on the microphone way before I was ever ready for it, right? You know, MC and powwows and round dances and talking at ceremonies. And soon as I was identified for somebody as somebody who had a little bit of language knowledge, it's like next thing you know, tobacco's coming every direction. Talk for this, talk for that, talk for this, talk for that. So um, and they say it gets easier, but man, I still get super nervous for even the little bitty feasts and stuff, you know. But um me personally, I had a lot of I had to I had to fight my way through, you know, my youth. And I was raised here on the res, and I'm not I'm the only there was two of us on this whole reservation that had blonde hair and blue eyes when we were kids, and uh, you know, a couple two half breeds on the whole res, man, and um like 30 mile radius, man. Everybody, dark skin, dark eyes. So I had a rough man, and then uh growing up, you know, not all the elders cared for me, and you know, got haters here and there, so got all my reasons to be insecure. It's just now I'm to the point of my life and my age where I don't even care, man. Like I don't even care what anybody thinks of me, and it feels super liberating, you know what I mean. Like I don't I don't do social media, so I don't have to follow everybody, you know, and stick my nose in everybody else's business. So I think that's a really healthy way to live. Um, and then I I I think it you as you as you age, you get to a certain age, doesn't even matter what other people think or say or whatever. I'm not doing it for them, you know. But yeah, I think we all have our reasons to be insecure, our reasons to be scared. I tell my students, like, don't be nervous because you got to do a class presentation. Like, man, wait till you got the tobacco in your hand and there's elders in the room, but then I'll give you a pass to be nervous. This is easy. This is a sandbox here, you know, it's just playground, man. Like uh getting a dance hall, and that's what the pressure's on, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:10

Um you talked about ceremony. We're also like as learners, we're kind of trying to revitalize or keep alive our ceremonies, too. Like and I'm sure you know you've been in it and learning about different ceremonies and taking your kids along. Do you think that kind of helped them kind of reinforce how important it was and and realizing I guess how important that that is within ceremony? Yeah, using using language.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:43

Yeah, for sure. Yep, the kids I think get that. And I think most of the kids understand that connection, you know, like and I think that's what it really was for me. And my motivation as a learner was that uh, well, what are we gonna do if we don't have it, right? If if there isn't anybody at the dance that can talk our language, what happens to our ceremony? How is it even gonna go? Like, can it even go? That sort of fueled the the the motivation to to do something, you know, and I think the kids feel that too, because we're not gonna be around forever either, you know. Uh if they want their raise their kids in that same way they came up, then uh guess who's next ones to feel the pressure, you know. Um, so that's why I say I'm really excited to see what these kids do in the next 20, 30 years, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:32

Yeah, it's awesome. Is there anything else you wanted to ask?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:37

Well, we I have a couple more questions that I have that I wanted to ask, but I had a couple. They'll probably come back to me in a second here. What kind of resources or like go-tos for anyone who's like wanting to do better or learn more things that were really helpful that are like physically in your hands or online or anything? Do you have uh any advice on anyone looking for materials to go to?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:01

Yeah, my was uh avid user of the Rick Greshik stuff, so um he you can purchase his books and they they come with CDs. So I know it's a dated technology, but most people put the CDs on a computer and then download them onto their phones or whatever. But um, you can find all his stuff at birchbarkbooks.com. And uh one of my favorites was traveling with Ojibwe, and it's uh the CD series is six CDs. Um, and Rick Greshik gives all the English prompts and the Ojibwe voice you hear on the recordings, Jim Clark and uh Naogiza Sabani was one of our most awesome speakers ever. Like the most awesome Ojibwe I ever heard on my ears was Jim Clark, man. And uh so he's the voice, and it's just this random stuff, man. Right, which way is the gas station? You know, go into the it the directions and do you have a map? You know, um, but I would listen to those so much that uh I would try to answer before Jim Clark could, you know, like they have a map. Try to beat him to that, it's like quiz myself, you know. Um, but I just thought that was such a cool approach, and there was other other series, right? So traveling with Ojibwe is just one of them, and there's one called You're in Ojibwe Country. Um, another one's called uh Ojibwe Moda and Dayung, like let's speak Ojibwe in the house. Um, but you know, they're really um I'd say low budget uh quality, you know, like the books are like these spiral bound like notebooks almost, you know, and it's all um, but man, dude put them out in the 80s, you know, and then and then all through the 90s. So he was like eons ahead of the curve, you know, and uh all the little phrase books that came with it. So I love them. I love that stuff. Um all the Ojibwe voices that he worked with were really awesome speakers, and there's one some that have ladies' voices, like Margaret Sayers was featured on a couple of his uh his volumes, but lots of stuff. Rick Reshrick did lots of cool stuff in uh the 80s and 90s, and yeah, most of that stuff you can still get at Birch Bark Books and um helping to support a good guy too, because Rick's a old man now, probably in his 70s, and he still sells those things out of the trunk of his car. You know, if you see him at a conference or a powwow, he's probably got boxes of books and CDs in the back of his car. So go into a good cause.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:46

Nice. So I love that.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:54

I think nowadays, you know, like the trends are really moving to the social media. So um, and again, I told you guys I don't play along on social media, but I'm actually hiring an intern at our university to be our social media creator for our language program so we can start having a TikTok, Instagram, all that presence because um, you know, nobody in the world knows what we're doing here because nobody driving the ship here does social media. So um, but if I get this young intern on, you start seeing more stuff, and I think that's the real direction for learning these days, where people can access it anywhere at the tip of their fingers without having to buy it, you know, without having to order it online and download it and all that stuff. Just uh moving with the current. And again, you know, kind of goes with the theorem of change, and the whole uh the whole language teaching dynamic has shifted significantly, where 90% of my students are on Zoom, like uh where I'm lucky to have two or three in the room during a class of 20, you know, or I got 16, 17 on the Zoom screen from all over North America, you know. Um, so the whole dynamic to teaching is changing and the accessibility is being increased. More people can chime in uh from no matter where they're at, you know, with all the technology. So long as we embrace it, you know, 10 years ago, we would have had a lot of pushback to um even having these conversations on a sort of digital platform, you know, people were real resistant and um insecure about things, but we gotta embrace that kind of stuff if we want to move into the future with the rest of the world, yeah, like social media, you know, positives and negatives to it, but you know definitely a lot of people using it, and I don't in the states too, kind of off topic, but you know, they're trying to ban TikTok and something else will pop up there.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:59

Oh I could keep I could keep that for another couple hours, but but yeah, I think we got a lot of good a lot of good conversation and just amazing wealth of knowledge and yeah, we could just go on and on about language revitalization, and we're all language nerds, so but yeah, it's just amazing that you're able to come, Miguel, Miguel Bajayan, Miguel, mama.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:28

Yeah, Miguel, me a keep up the good work over there, keep me posted too. Like if there's a link to this, I can go listen to myself and the way it sounded on a recording.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:44

Is there anything uh uh is was there anything you uh you want to plug or any links that you want people to check out?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:53

Um no, not really, man. Like uh I'm pretty old school. Hey, if you guys didn't get plums or nuts, anybody out there in listener land, uh plums or nuts is uh uh book I did with a mick. So a bunch of stories that a mick told me. And uh we got the audio out in uh Ojibwe People's Dictionary so people can listen along when they read. Um and it's a mick. It's the recordings that the book um came from. So it's actual, it's not him reading the stories, it's him telling the stories from there. I typed them up and we translated them. So yeah, that's a that's a good one. Check it out on you and get it on all your big uh book distributors, Amazon, Barnes and Obu, all that. Plums are nuts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:42

The recordings are on ODP, yeah, right on the home page.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:47

How did I not? Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:50

Nice. Yeah, we're pretty proud of that. So uh yeah, check that out and then uh be on the lookout for social media stuff from LCO Jibu University. Hopefully, sometime by the end of June, I'll have somebody hired putting up content for us. So excited about that. I got a bunch of crazy ideas and things I want to do, and I got all kinds of potential actors in the community to make fools out of. So it should be fun. We're gonna have fun with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:18

And then we went to end them. I I have used a couple of your recordings. Um, I got called in to teach. I said no a bunch of times, and I but I always am using a lot of your um videos that are out there, especially with the metaphor of like, you know, we're in the canoe and we're shoveling water out, and you're shooting arrows at us from the shoreline, and we're going to the rapids, and we're trying, and just to give the kids a little bit of you know, motivation and visibility and all of it, and how much hard work it needs, it's always, but anyways, yeah, I I'm just super grateful that that I got to speak with you. I speak very highly of you, I was very excited. And um, I've had two students who actually know you. Um yeah, yeah, which is uh pretty pretty cool. Does anyone know this guy? Uh yeah, I had a couple people through the Powell Trail who who knew you, so that was pretty pretty powerful too. But yeah, I'm just very grateful that you spent uh the time with us. Yeah, it uh really filled my spirit up. So chimigwech.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:24

Uh oh, good done.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:27

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:36

Chimigwech got thanks so much for listening to our podcast. And waiting, our sound. Reach us by email, find us at our sound period podcast at email.com. You can find all of our links to my meeting coffee, Patreon, Instagram, etc., at our link tree, which is linktr period e slash nway dot hours. Our theme song was done by myself, Neen Mushkokovitkoi, and artwork completed by Nishima, my younger brother, Brent Beauchamp. Jimmy Glench.