S2E5: Miigwanaabiik - Jessica Shonias

Miigwanaabiikwe Jessica Shonias is caribou clan from Rama First Nation and Atikameksheng Anishnawbek. Her and her husband Beedaban have three boys together whom they speak the language to at home in Rama. She is a cofounder of Eshki-Nishnaabemjig Immersion Academy, as well as a producer and cohost of the Language Podcast. She holds a Master of Arts in Indigenous Governance, a B.Ed. as well as ECE. Jessica has taught both in and out of immersion, to both primary and secondary grades, as well as adult learners of varying levels. She was a successful attendee of Ojibwemotaadidaa Omaa Gidakiiminanng (OOG) immersion academy in Fond du Lac, Minnesota, which informs her practice as well as her experience in immersion settings.






Disclosure: Germany does not have the highest amount of listener downloads. It is currently the third country with the highest amount of listeners, particularly from one city. First and second "countries" with the highest amount of listeners are from Turtle Island. (Canada & the US)

linktr.ee/enweying.oursound

Many people have reached out to ask where they can donate or support revitalization efforts. This link leads to our Link Tree which has a Patreon as well as "Buy me a Coffee" where you can donate to our families cause and initiatives we do to support learning in the home and across our communities. Miigwech

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

You know, like me, and maybe he'll be a fluent speaker or maybe not, but at least we didn't have to keep reminding our kids that the language and culture is important because like we just lived it ourselves. So at least he'll have those values instilled in him. And it's not us preaching it, it's us like living those teachings.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

This is a grassroots podcast intended for those raising or helping to raise children in an indigenous language.

SPEAKER_06 0:56

A special shout out to the Indigenous Screen Office for making season two of En Weighing possible. Get Jimmy Gwetch.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Bojo, welcome to Enway Sound Podcast.

SPEAKER_08 1:14

That's gonna backfire on you because I'm gonna use this.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

So anyway.

SPEAKER_08 1:18

So just get ready.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

You won't.

SPEAKER_08 1:21

Yes, I yes, I am.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Okay, so bojo.

SPEAKER_08 1:25

I'm in my healing, healing girl era. I'm not scared, nothing. So we're doing episode, I guess what are we at? Was this the third or fourth? This is the fourth guest we've had on, so our fifth episode. Season two, air quotes. Um we haven't recorded since like before the summer, eh?

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Yes, it's been a long time.

SPEAKER_08 1:58

Yeah, because life and you know, luckily that all comes down to Nishnabewin, like there's immersion, there's your program that you were running through the summer, vacation, new jobs, old jobs, ending red and then just trying to get people where they're able to record because like summer is such a busy time. So we got through the fall, falls is so busy.

SPEAKER_07 2:26

So here we are, like a month out before the holidays.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

We have thousands of downloads.

SPEAKER_06 2:40

Monty, I can't stand when you go off about that.

SPEAKER_08 2:45

I think I don't I never want someone to think you're serious.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

From around the world, that's true. We got downloads around.

SPEAKER_08 2:54

I feel like the highest amount of people who have downloaded this are from Germany.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Oh really?

SPEAKER_08 2:59

From one town in Germany. So they'll hear it. Anyway, so lots has changed in the household, but uh we have a really special guest on today.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

I was looking forward to this guest. It's full of knowledge and all aspects of language revitalization and life in general, but yeah, I've been wanting to have her on for a long time.

SPEAKER_08 3:28

Powerhouse. So when I think about often when I'm trying to be a better person, and I think of her and uh you know what I what I can learn from her, and she's always been a role model because she started her learning journey a bit before me. And let's introduce ourselves just for our listeners, even though we're on season two, episode five, and they should know who we are so like already and whatnot, but we'll introduce ourselves before we give her a chance to introduce herself and give her the floor.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

So naida and douyaki, shogunashi, and a kazeo. So my English name is Monty. Um just introduced myself. I'm from Dash Gun Zibing. Um otherwise known as Chapaz of the Times First Nation. And I am a teacher of Nishna Bemwen. I'm also a father and a husband, and a son, and a brother. I don't know if there's anything else I should add. Yeah, that's me.

SPEAKER_08 5:24

London Ajinagodic, Jagannashi No Dao. What else? So Emiline Jaganashi Wanakazia is my English name, and you know, y'all know me as Mashkoka Budakwe. So my father's from Long Plain, Manitoba. Um I never lived there. And from the East Coast with Bounce in Ontario, currently living in London with my husband and his territory with our two kids. And um, yeah, that's a bit of a long-winded uh explanation to who we both are, but it's been a while. I just thought it might be a good idea for us to catch up on on who we are and whatnot, and yeah, for anybody. I know we've had a couple new listeners or people coming on to to listen to the podcast, and um yeah, so we will uh give the floor to uh dear friend uh Niganabi Jessica Showing us.

SPEAKER_04 6:36

Um go windemotion and jabyan Okay, uh, be qua dishnabe no swin, just gasonias, dishnakanago jagana shimong, edicto dem, uh nishnabe quenau um majikaning do ben dogwis minwan do da megwa, uhmiksingo, um Majikaning Ginjaba Nospa, Minwa Tikmiksing Jabah Gusha. Umeskiab um swe guiza suk doanik uh nin minwa na bam pidabinjin kaze we quam kong jabah. Uh the nishnabem toa nanik uh the guizas muk mumpy and daya. Um yeah, Meganabatsminik, that's me. So my name's Jessica Shonia. I'm uh Caribou clan from Rama, my father's my late father's community. That's uh where I'm a band member of and I live currently. And my mom is from a dick mixing, so I always uh acknowledge both of those communities. And um can't remember what I said already. We have uh three boys, um, me and my husband Bidavin, he's from Wikwam Kong, and we live here in Rama and we uh speak the language to our kids at home. That's me.

SPEAKER_08 8:32

Yeah, we we all know each other pretty well.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

So or I don't know what you want to get into first. I guess we can talk about how we met if you if you can recall.

SPEAKER_04 8:48

I was hoping you weren't gonna ask that because I don't remember.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

I remember how we met.

SPEAKER_07 8:58

Can you tell us?

SPEAKER_02 9:02

We were at ATEG. Um, that's when we met in person. I think I followed you and Miss Guanquid online, and I saw you guys were doing language stuff. One of you came up to me at an Ishina Bemote conference and just like introduced yourselves, and you're like, Oh, we're this person, we do language, you know, like, oh yeah, and then that's that's how we initially met.

SPEAKER_04 9:26

Yeah, that's the gist of it. That's what I was gonna say, because it's just different, like being millennials and or growing up with the internet. Like now you just kind of quote unquote meet people online. So there's like the internet meeting, which is like you're just kind of um passively following each other on social media, and then yeah, we actually that's what I remembered too. And it wasn't me, it was Miss Guanquid that went up and talked to you because I'm like way too nervous to just go up and talk to someone in person. And then for Emma Line, that's even worse. I don't even know. I think it was the same thing online, and then um, but I think like eventually when you're doing language for long enough, everyone eventually meets everyone, anyways, or you might hear about someone beforehand, and then you actually meet them in person. So I think the first time we met in person was here in Rama when Corey Snake was having like some Nishnabewin immersion thing. Um, but it was very brief because I think you were only there for a little bit and um yeah, Mesquanho wasn't there, so I went up and introduced myself. But then uh yeah, and then things just kind of happen naturally where the language circles get smaller and smaller, and then you you're kind of you all have to be friends with each other anyway, whether you want to or not. But I choose you guys as friends. Oh my glitch.

SPEAKER_08 10:57

Yeah, that's exactly how I remembered it. Yeah, you like, yeah. I just remember you like showing me your photo like me on Instagram being like, Gina, like and uh I was like, yeah, because I saw you from afar too, just from being in school and people knowing you, and then the circle, and it was close to Rama, so I was there quite a bit, anyways. Yeah, yeah, and then go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

So you guys kind of motivated me to go to Oog, so the immersion program in Minnesota, because I think I probably started learning before you guys are really getting into language, and then you guys went out to Oog and Coca-Cop Minnesota for Oog. Um and I had seen like advertisements for it, but I was like, no, you know, it's a different dialect, I'm not gonna understand anything. So I'm just not gonna go. But it looked it looked like intriguing because it was immersion. And then you guys went. So the summer, I think I don't know what summer it was, 2014 maybe, or maybe before that, 2013. And then I was like, oh well, they're more beginner than I am, so maybe I could do it. And then so that kind of inspired me to go and to go out there and and discover that. Um and then I ended up uh what do you call it recommending that Emily go to as well later on, but uh but yeah, we can get into kind of that part later about how that inspired us to create Ashican Snow Boundary. Um But we wanted to see if you could share your learning journey and why did you start learning?

SPEAKER_04 13:09

Oh geez. Yeah, I don't know. Um where do I begin? It's really hard because like I think my whole life I wanted to speak the language, but I couldn't. And like no one in my family, in my close family, spoke it. Like my parents didn't speak it, my grandparents didn't speak it. Um it wasn't until after my my granny Saidi Bah on my dad's side had passed away that I found out that she was fluent, which actually makes sense if you think about it, but like it wasn't like it wasn't a thing. So I was kind of sad because probably the last couple years of her life that like I would have been quote unquote fluent, whatever that means. Like I could have held the conversation with her in the language, like how good it would have been. I don't know if that's up for debate, but it made me kind of sad because it's like I could have like learned from her, I could have like tried to speak to her, that kind of thing. So suffice it to say, it was never in the in our home or in our family. And the only time that I would hear it would be like at daycare at school in the community, like if we're at a pow-wow and and then elders giving a prayer. And like as long as I can remember, I always wanted um, I may not have under, I may have understood some words and stuff from school and daycare, uh, but didn't really know what they were saying, but really, really wanted to. So I always felt that like longing. Um, and like the words are on the tip of my tongue, but I couldn't say them. So as far back as I can remember, I've always wanted the language. Like I don't know why. I just I'm like, wow, other people aren't like that. So like we always had it. Um we had it at daycare here in Rama. And then my parents split up when I was about six, seven. And then when I was seven, that's when we moved to my mom's community and I take a mixing. So I don't really remember like a lot of Rama, like I don't remember language class. So I was kind of surprised that we even started back then. And then um in elementary school, we had language class, and uh I think it like it was, you know, numbers, colors, and animals and and words. And I don't say that to like criticize or punch down on anyone because that gave me the basis that could help me start learning. So I always felt like once I like really got into learning and like how to put sentences together, that I was starting with something at least. Like I was fit I had some words and I was familiar with the sound of the language and and that kind of thing. So I had something to work with. Um, but all those years it was like I would pick up a class here or there, like, yeah, I'm gonna get serious about language. And um then um, you know, life would happen or I would just learn more words and like couldn't put them together to form a thought or a sentence for myself. I just knew like a bunch of words, you know, I could list a bunch of stuff, but I had no idea like how the language was actually structured, or you know, you always hear people say, Oh, I want to learn the beginnings and endings. Like they're they want, they're saying they want to learn how to conjugate a verb. So I was like very much in that boat too. Um, and I I found some like old journals, cringe from when I was like a teenager in high school. And I was really surprised. It was kind of cool to see it because even in high school, I wanted to speak the language to my kids, my future. If I was gonna have kids, I wasn't sure if I if that's what I wanted. But that was something that I always wanted for myself. It was like I wish we could just be speaking our language. And there would be like kids at school, like uh, because I went to high school at Lively High outside of Sudbury, lots of Finnish people, and there would be like Finnish families who like their first language was Finnish, I guess. And that was the language they spoke at home. Then they came to school and spoke English, and it's like, wow, why can't we have that? So I've always, always wanted that. Um, and then a lot of the language classes and then just the way life works, like it's just not conducive to becoming fluent. Um, and back then, um, I didn't I wasn't even sure if it was possible. Like I wanted to be fluent, but I had no idea how oh, and I had never seen anyone else that could do it. Like there was elders that were fluent speakers from birth, and then like, and then there was me who was just learning words, and there was no in between. So I wasn't even sure like how to go about that. So just spinning the wheels, spinning the wheels. It's funny, I don't think it was until I met Ms. Guanquan. I don't even know when that was now, maybe 2013. He was here was this other kind of young guy. Like, oh, I'm not gonna say how old we are or how old we were back then, but someone like-minded who really wanted to learn. And I'm uh like I'm an introvert. And when it came to language, I was like really scared and shy and nervous and had like all of those, all of that baggage that that we carry as Nishnave people. Um, you know, like shame and and I don't know if it was guilt, but like very emotional. So like my if I had to speak in front of someone in like in a class, my throat would like literally close up and I like couldn't breathe and my heart would be just like pounding. And so like I probably so it's just funny, Ozawa, how you're talking about like meeting us and then like being inspired. Like that was all Miss Guanquit just taking me along for the ride. Like I would probably wouldn't be here if I didn't have someone like Miss Guanquit who like I don't know, he's a weird guy like he says that he likes being in awkward generations, or like you know, like he still gets nervous to speak, and he's like, I kind of enjoy that, like really, like because I can't relate. So he like he kind of like dragged me along, not dragged me along because I wanted to be there, but like he helped me get past my nervousness. And I think like that initial stage, and then like even further into the learning journey, like when we actually went to Ojewey Motaur Oog immersion for three weeks. Um, so at that point, and then and then even my first time at immersion, how hard it was. I think that's where a lot of people just give up because it's like it's just incredibly way too hard. And I don't blame anyone, like because I know what it's like, and like I cried a lot and wanted to give up a lot and was exhausted and felt stupid a lot too. So, but I think like that's the point where you're like you either make or break it, like you're either on on the verge or like not, or you're quitting kind of thing. So I don't think it was until I met Miss Gwanquid that we were really serious about it, and we would like go to like language tables and like language class and um the same thing, like, or even places would be advertised as immersion, and like that's what we really wanted, and then it would just be like speaking in English about the language and learning more words. So we would go all over the place because we were like, How do we get there? Like, how do we like become fluent? Like, can it be done kind of thing? Um, and I remember you know him telling me they had Brian McGuinness in his community of Wassoxing, but Brian was living in the states somewhere, so it like you know, there was lore, but there was, you know, and I I guess Alan Corbier then too, but I wasn't like really big in the language, like I never went to Nishinaabe Winteg, or like, you know, I didn't I didn't know that about him. So yeah, so still we were like, how do we get there? Like, how do we how do we do this? And then that first year that we met you was await anishineabe winteg. Um that was when we saw the ladies from Ojibwe Motadada presenting on their immersion academy. And we're like, and then I even was getting nervous just sitting in there when they were talking about immersion, and I we were like, wow, this seems like the real deal. Um, and then um like a older fluent speaker was sitting in on the workshop that we were in, and she goes, Oh, are you Nancy Jones' granddaughter? And she goes, Yeah, I am. And she goes, I remember you. I went over to visit, and like that's when you were just starting to speak, and she's like, You've come a really long way. Um like I understood everything that you said and I'm really proud of you. So we were like, Oh my god. Um, and then uh then they're like, Okay, now we're gonna simulate immersion. Let's do immersion. And I was like, Oh my god, get me out of here. Um, so I was like, wow, these people are like the real deal. And then for the rest of the conference, we would see them around and they would only be talking to each other in Nishnave when and like that's when I was like, I could be that too. Like, so we were like, we have to go to this um immersion academy. But I think by that point their registration for that summer had already closed, so we went for two or three weeks to Thunder Bay. Um, and we didn't take the whole like language teacher program, but um Pat Ning once had offered a like quote unquote emerging uh course, and it was still very much in English, but like Pat's an amazing teacher, and she would get up, she would get you get up and speak in the language and like talk to each other, and um and she really understood how to how to teach so that we were starting to understand the language. So um after that three weeks, she was like, You guys are all ready to go to immersion, like you know, like you're you're on to the next step. Um, I wasn't, but I wanted to believe that. So the next summer we went to Oog, and back then it was three weeks. Um in no English whatsoever. I'm I'm not gonna go down that because whole story, because you guys under obviously understand that. And I'm sure if your listeners have listened to other people like Ben would note, um didn't he talk about Oog? Anyway, I'm sure it's it's out there, but suffice it to say it was the real deal. And um, I've always done well in school academically. Um, but that was the first time that I was like the quote unquote weakest learner in the room, and I really saw like how how hard it was. So I really sucked and I probably wasn't ready, and I was like crying in my room every night, but I had survived that three weeks, um, you know, even though I couldn't say a lot, but that was kind of like the point of no return because I what I gained out of that was I was finally over like my fear and my shyness. I was like, I just sucked for three weeks and like the no one cares, like there's no consequences to it. And I realized, like, in fact, I gained a skill, like this is what it's gonna take if I want to be fluent. And again, when I was there, I saw people younger than me that were like conversationally speaking in the language and didn't need any English at all to communicate themselves. And I said, like, how did how did you learn? Like, what did you do? And they said, Oh, I just came here for a couple summers. So it so it was like we were finally on the path and meeting people and like finding out what works for other people and being like, Okay, that's what I have to do. So the second summer we went, so then we went back the next year. Was that three weeks then too? That was the first year you went Ozawa. Yeah, it was three weeks. Okay, so it was so it was three weeks then, and then just in that one year, like I was like no longer crying anymore. I was like laughing and having fun, and like there were still points where I was getting frustrated, and you know, I was still very much like not very strong of a speaker, but it was like a complete 180 from from the year before. So I yeah, so and then after that, like yeah, I had I had survived or like white-knuckled it or not quit the tough part, and then it was kind of like an upwards trajectory from there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 25:44

It's funny because this is kind of going back from what we were talking about, but when I went up to Wassoxing for the first time, like even before you and I met, I was told about you and Musquon quit because I was learning language at the time, and they were like, Oh, this guy's gonna come, and he's a good language speaker, and his woman too, like they're language people, like go meet them. And I was just too shy because I didn't know anything or know anybody and everything. So I was just thinking, I just remembered that when you said like it was him kind of bringing you, and I just remember seeing you guys and kind of like silently fangirling. I was like, Oh my god, like someone else learned me like, but I was like, I'm not gonna introduce myself, like you know, this isn't the time. Like it was I think we're at the corn roast. Um anyways, um yeah, and Oog stayed three weeks until my first uh time going, and that was way after you guys, so give some context to that. But did you go by yourself the first year that you went?

SPEAKER_04 26:44

No, I went with Musconquid.

SPEAKER_08 26:46

I wouldn't have both times by myself.

SPEAKER_04 26:52

Yeah. Yeah. And then the second time we went, that was the first year that I met you and line at in Rama. And then I was always there because I remember he was asking me about dialects. I didn't know you were dialects and practices, and so like, oh, what's it like? Can you get by? And I don't remember what I said. I'm like, yeah, it's fine. Like, I don't know. Because at that for me, at that point, like what was the dialect to me? Like, I didn't understand any of it. So and then that's when I that's when we got to know you a lot when we started talking about like, wouldn't it be awesome if we had something like this in Ontario? Um, and then yeah, it's kinda yeah, what led us uh down the path that we're at today, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

And then I heard you talk before about um Marianne Corbier's books that really helped.

SPEAKER_04 27:52

Yeah, I forgot to mention that um she was another format still is uh formative in my my learning. Um I took the first time I took her course was probably 2006. Um and so her course books really like that was the first time that I saw someone like break it down and like here's how the language works essentially. But um I was like not in a good place in my life to be to be learning. And it was really hard too, because she was like actually and it was like a lot of grammar and academic study, which a lot of people don't like. Um, I was fine with it, it wasn't an issue, but it would suffice it to say it was hard. So I probably only got like 63 in that course. Um, and I'm like years uh so I don't know, it's almost 20 years later, like 18 years later, and I still refer to those to those books. So I came, I kept coming back to them um all the time. So I think I think she let me just like sit in her courses when we were living in Sudbury. So I kind of like quote unquote took it a second time and I still failed. Like I still would do the tests and like just like everything was wrong. But it didn't uh it didn't deter me. I was like, yes, like valuable feedback, like it's not helpful when someone's like, yeah, everything you said was right, because I know it's not so so it didn't deter me, but I still really, really sucked at it. Um and Manyan actually used to tutor me the before the first time we went to Oog. I was like, oh no, I'm going, like this is really happening. And uh that's when I was like, oh, I need survival phrases. Like, how do I say? I just realized I didn't know how to say like anything useful, right? Like I could I could say like the chair is black, but I couldn't say like I'm going to the bathroom or I'll be right back, or um, I would be like, how do I ask them like how to say like um like where can I go swimming around here like stuff like that so she would sit she would like one on one tutor me because I used to live uh in Sudbury back then and like even now like if I ever I have to fire off an email and ask her something like she always writes back so yeah Marianne's awesome nice so I guess would that take us into like almost Ashke Nishna Bem Jick then what what year did you guys like come together and figure that out I was kind of on the sidelines yeah that was 2014 I think maybe 16 15 I don't remember it's all there now oh wait maybe I don't know I don't know I don't like when people ask me because I think I don't know it was sometime between 1986 and 2024 but I do remember uh let me see if I yeah 2016 was the first year yeah oh that you ran it yeah oh it's not even showing yeah so sorry what was the question oh like yeah the first year that it ran was 2016 I just kind of meant like how you guys came together to decide I mean I know we've talked about it a little bit or maybe it was 2015 when we're at Oog and then just one night um I think you messaged me and Squalquid or you guys talked about it or something.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

I don't know how it came about but we all met like at at night when everything was done. Not everything but the day activities were done and we're like okay let's talk about you know do we want to run something similar in Ontario because we knew there wasn't anything like it. Yeah I think like you brought that up to me and I was like yeah sure I'll do it and then me like at that time you know not being confident in like creating something that I felt was like huge or like big like I was just like yeah yeah let's do it you know just being hopeful. Yeah and then you had hooked up with um I think you worked for Kenjich and then that's how we did the first the first one and it was funny because it was kind of last minute I think we're like should we do it should we not do it we don't have funding. I forgot about that's like no we got funding so we're like okay let's just do it and then um you had not gone to Oog that summer but me and Miss Guankid did but we didn't have our phones or anything so it was like we we were trying to organize it. Well Jess was like back in Ontario trying to organize everything and then me and Miss Guankid would get our phones for like a half hour every night because they take all your phones away and your laptop seven o'clock every night you could go into the safe and get your phone. Yeah they have it all in a safe so get it for a half hour so we'd go check our phones or whatever check our emails okay what's the update what's happening and then we end up running the first year at Anderson Lake for and we had to do it ten days straight I remember just because of funding. Because we didn't have money yeah so we had to do 10 days straight and that was it we did it it was it happened but I could tell people were and that was the first time you know anything was run like that in Ontario right so I remember people getting tired around day well day six seven about day seven I could really tell people were like switching into English or like speaking English just because they they were just their brains are just fried. What do you remember about that at that time?

SPEAKER_08 34:21

I'm still looking through my phone trying to figure out what the the timeline was I started at like the end of June and went into like the second week of July I think like the 16th around there and then literally jumped from Oog because I was with you right into Anderson Lake and I tagged along just to have like five weeks of Nishna Bam went.

SPEAKER_04 34:44

So it was kind of like the middle of July onward I'm pretty sure so the first time we went Miss Guanquid and I went to Oog was 2014. So the second time that was as always the first time would have been 2015 and then that's when we started talking about having our own immersion and then so then when did we run 2016? Okay you're good with that just I don't know it's bugging me now. Whatever 2016 I guess was the first year that we ran what do I remember about it? Yeah like we applied for fun so we was when we were at Oog I was like we should do something like this back home and so we met with them and and asked them like can we like we want to do something like this at home can we do we have permission to use their model they said yeah and they kind of shared with us like some of the kinks and stuff that they worked out doing their own trial and error and like here's what we recommend here's what you should try avoid kind of thing and then we applied for funding through Canadian heritage and they were like you're gonna get it you're gonna get it but they didn't want to fund everything because our project was too expensive. Because I think part of it was we wanted to train our fluent speakers um it turns out just get awesome speakers and you don't need to but I think that was the part that they thought was too expensive. So it was like we almost had all the funds but there was some extra stuff that we couldn't do. So then Kenji gay went partnered with us and the oh the and the OCF Ojib Ojibwe Cultural foundation and Chigang they had some money too and so they were gonna like top us up and then the funders were like yeah it's gonna happen it's gonna happen um but we were getting like closer to the summer and we had to like book venues and do call out and invite people and hire teachers and do the application process and like to ask someone to go away from their family or jobs for two weeks like you need at least a month notice so we were getting kind of like antsy and then they said like you're gonna get the funding but like we can't say for like you still have to wait till kind of went ahead and started planning it and then the day of they're like oh whoops we're not we're not gonna fund you guys so then we had already put out the announcement like Kenjigay one tag and OCF's name was like plastered all over it and I was like oh my god am I gonna get fired from my job because I kind of just um again OCF are just really awesome and they just care about language and they make things work. So that's that's what happened. So um and then yeah when you guys all went to Oog I stayed behind because um I thought well um like this is uh you know like a native school or whatever an institution place of learning so I said let's just attack um an additional qualifications course onto this program um so if you're not if you're registered with the Ontario College of Teachers you would have got um an AQ for teaching Ojibwe uh because I felt like if you're doing 125 hours of strict immersion like I feel like yeah you could probably teach some language. And so I would go to work all day while you guys were having fun learning language in Minnesota. And then I would come home and like type an AQ course which like I've never taken an AQ course like what is and I was just like so stressed. Um and I submitted I submitted it to the OCT for accreditation and if if it anything would have come back like no this needs to be fixed then we wouldn't have um had that in time and it went through on the first round so I was like oh my god I would make you nothing like nothing like the pressure and I felt like that kind of justified the spending like um yeah so that's what we did and it was amazing. I can't believe how many speakers we had just because it was like the first time um we had really seen anything like that. We put a call out on social media and it had like 10 000 shares or something like insane. And uh like people were really excited. So we and I think because we were out in like Minodomus thing area where all the speakers are we had all kinds of speakers coming in and like to yeah I can't I just can't believe it it happened at all. I thought it was amazing and I felt like you could feel in the room like just like something like magic was happening like the vibes were like I just couldn't believe we were just kind of like let's just try it and see what happens and then you know like I don't know how like eight years later we're still yeah we're still going strong I guess so it was amazing.

SPEAKER_02 40:11

Yeah I think like saying the first time like I know some of the speakers at first were kind of hesitant like you don't want us to speak any English like how are they gonna understand and we just kind of I think and I tell people this all the time how it works or like why it works is because the facilitators are us kind of lead the way in staying in the language I think when you go other places if the if the lead person who's usually you know we don't have an elder organizing this whole event but usually the person that's organizing the whole event doesn't speak very well. They're just kind of they want people they just want a gathering of language um which is awesome but they just don't stay in the language so then it then it's like we call about we talk about the snowball effect where you roll the snowball down a hill and then just one person speaks English and then two people are having conversation in English and then next thing you know the whole camp is just talking in English about language rather than speaking in the language.

SPEAKER_04 41:22

Is that why it works I didn't know it was because of us as facilitators I think so I don't know why how it works it just does okay good job us I think that's why it it can stay in the language um but of course you know we need our fluent speakers there and the ones that we have there now have been there for years so now they're just it's like they're just so amazing they just kind of go there every year now they know what to do they know how to speak to the students. So yeah I also but I also feel like yeah you don't understand a lot of what's happening at first but um I don't know I can't even remember because I tried to explain it to an elder here they're like if I but they're not gonna understand me like how are they gonna learn and I I had a really good answer for that elder but I don't remember what it is now but if you don't force yourself to like listen and speak then you're never gonna learn like like you're missing an opportunity to do it. So there is a there is a period where it gets really hard um and then when you get there like are you going to quit or are you gonna keep going? So something happens there where yeah like you kind of like skyrocket for a bit after and spoiler alert then you get to be middle aged like me and then you plateau that's where I'm at right now. But that first little bit right it's like uh it's like a huge trajectory. Um but also like you know this is the part that not every the tough pill to swallow piece that not everyone wants to hear as much as I like love being an immersion and it works like I don't know how it works. It's kind of like a miracle it's also not enough for adults like we also have to learn the grammar and like or whatever you we don't have to call it grammar. We can call it what the patterns are and how the language works like you have to know those foundations um because there's a lot of stuff that you will miss in immersion as an adult too. So it it's kind of both kids and like absolutely not you don't teach them grammar just speak to them right because they have those like amazing um child brains but you know like I'm well past that that age and it does get harder the older you become um like that's it's not impossible but it's just you have to work that much harder at it right so because I think that when we especially adults or when anyone communicates we all want to understand each other and be understood. So you know I there's a lot of really great teachers out there like Barbara Nolan and Albert Owell um and uh who else does that TBR Rhonda Hopkins and uh Mabel Lewis Hill like they're all phenomenal they do that total physical response where they can tell you a whole story not using any English all in Nishnawe and you understood the whole story. Like that's amazing that's a skill I'll probably never have and that I would love to figure out how they do that. That's like a gift for sure and so in I can sit there in immersion and I know what they're talking about because they're using their body language they're acting it out they're drawing it like you know they're like they're checking for understanding and if you don't understand they'll figure out another way to talk around it so you get the message but does that mean that I can turn around and retell that story no like you know that's where the the studying works and and you'll also skip over a lot of like a lot of those quote unquote filler words in between um and if you're not aware of it like as an adult like you would be surprised the amount of stuff stuff that you skip over right like all those little particles like sagwa na sagona like um ni na like all these little particles um we totally skip over them as adults so it it gets you pretty far but then eventually you like if you want to go to that next level and like really sound like a speaker, you kind of do have to hit the books. And I think that's another barrier for people too um and that might be the hard point for them is like this is too hard. I don't like this way I don't learn this way. If I knew of a better easier way like I would have figured that out by now um but we're not in a position to be like picky and choosy and idealistic at this point. It's like I'm just gonna do whatever works. Like so when I went to Oog and I was like what how did you guys become fluent or whatever to this point that you're at and like I went to immersion and I recorded speakers and transcribed and translated them. And it was like okay well like obviously that works so that's what I'm gonna do. And hopefully I get to a point where I can speak enough that my kids can just hear it in the language and they don't have to go through that right they can learn it ideally at the home the way we should all be learning it. You hadn't asked me about grammar but that's what I think.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

Yeah like part of that I think and maybe I've said this on this podcast before but I know I said it in other places where I think we were like 10 years behind Western learners or teaching and I think actually MJ you know it it gave it gives you like an advanced learner atmosphere so you know we have a lot of programs out there especially now there's even more language programs but then it only goes to a certain point and then there's nowhere else to really to really learn more and then coming to Shganishnao Bemjik, you know you see other learners you see other advanced learners and then you're learning other things like we go over VTAs which we know is really hard to teach in regular classrooms and people you know some people it's their first time seeing it broken down and then you know they go home after that after attending and then they study on their own and are able to understand it more. And so I was thinking like why do they have so many speakers out west like so many young learners and so yeah just like all that what you were saying is they they had you know that earlier and I think us in Ontario with the help of you know with us like creating a Shikanishabemic I think that that made a huge impact on the young learner population and making and showing people like it it is possible. I think before that I know for sure when I started learning that was like 2007 it seemed like it was an impossible task to become a speaker. So I think this you know having this in it kind of people attending you know they go back to their communities and it branches out and creates all these other branches and people are running their own immersion you know based on what we do at Eshkinish Nabamjik which you know what we based off of UG. So yeah I'm just I think we're catching up here in Ontario or I I guess I should say Central and Southern Ontario we're kind of we're catching up to the outwest they kind of have it down they have their formula down on how to create young learners and we're getting there you know more and more young people are being conversational.

SPEAKER_08 49:37

Yeah I never thought it was possible until I saw people my age and younger speaking proficiently and I was like what like I didn't think that that was like you said possible like I don't I was so confused I was so overwhelmed I was when I was like I'm lying indigenous I didn't understand anything they said back to me and I'm like how do I not understand that like where am I um and you pointed something out just that I think about a lot and that's like the urge to want to like connect or have fun like you're in such a uncomfortable or awkward position when you're learning or you're in immersion. And generally in English or in your your first language or whatever language that you are most comfortable speaking fluently um like when things get awkward or whatever you have like a comedic relief. When you can't express that in the language um you try and find a way to express it. And so like there's a motivator to connect with other people and to laugh with other people and I just it makes me reflect on when I was learning German in Austria. The first three months that I was there I didn't learn anything because they kept like translating into English for me and I wasn't taking any classes. And the jump for me was when I finally met friends after three months. My friends weren't going to speak English to me because I was just going to be there temporarily and I've said this before in the past but they I had to like keep up if I wanted to laugh or like connect or like socialize with them. And that's where my jump went from like not being able to use German at all to like three months I'm semi fluent, can proficiently keep a conversation or do what I need to do in the world in that language. And I find that happens in immersion because you're with other people with like either wanting to have fun or you were playing games and you do have fun and you want to like tell people or express and so it pushes you through that fear zone to the growth zone because like you're motivated by wanting to socialize a little bit too like that's a really helpful thing I think um and then also sorry yeah and I took a grammar class when I was learning German too so that also bumped me up as an adult because yeah so then it just reinforces that like in another language that's how I got to where I needed to go. There was just not all that emotional baggage attached to it and it was just an interest and a hobby to me whereas like when we're doing it we're carrying a whole load of crap with us right like that also stops us or like breaks us or like is like a bit of a factor of like you know can you work through it and keep moving or is it just too much or whatever, right?

SPEAKER_04 52:24

Alright so I guess we can get into you know you have your babies now you knew you wanted to speak to them in the language um so just I don't know tell us about how how you find it you know is it everything you thought it would be was there things that surprised you after they were born um just so you know my internet connection says it's unstable so you were talking like that'll probably happen to me if it happens to me just tell me and I'll repeat what I said um sorry okay sorry the question was me wanting to speak the language sorry can you repeat the question you have your babies now and you know how did how is that going?

SPEAKER_08 53:20

How was that journey?

SPEAKER_04 53:21

Was there anything that kind of um took you by surprise and those beginning processes are to where you are now or well it's funny because even though I said I've like I've I was like maybe I'll have kids maybe I won't like I was fine either way with it like if it was gonna happen then great and if it wasn't then that's fine too yeah so even though I said that I always wanted to speak the language to my kids I wasn't sure if I was gonna have kids and then we did we were ready to me and my husband were ready to have kids and um I didn't think too deeply on language or what my goal was like I know other parents are like oh my god the kids you know my baby's gonna be here and like what do I do and they start to have that panic like talking about language families um then what should I do? I didn't have that or or worry about it or think about it probably because being pregnant is so hard as it is like I I had quote unquote morning sickness for like the first 22 weeks so I I I wasn't able to other than like trying not to barf everywhere. Uh yeah so and it was funny when we were sharing the news with folks that we're gonna have a baby and everything everyone's like we're so excited that you know that you're gonna speak the language to your kid and you're gonna have a fluent speaker and I I never said that that's what I was going to do. I never decided everyone just kind of assumed that that's what I was going to do. And I was really like I don't know if I like obviously I'm gonna teach them language and that's gonna be important but do I want to be like a hardcore language parent about it and then I'm thinking like you're we're they're gonna get that pushback from them you know like um maybe they're not gonna like the language or they're gonna get to the teenager phase and like I don't want to go like I just that's my thing like I want them to be whoever they want to be and just an accepting parent. So I never really like decided that but at the time we were living um like kind of Belleville area for my husband's work and the closest community was Tyndanaga and they had their own indigenous midwives um Hodenishone midwives so they took me into their care and again like I never was like you know like I never grew up thinking I have to have kids I have to have a family so um yeah so like I didn't even really fully my doctor was like if you because I told her I was potentially like we might have kids we might not we'll see what happens and uh she was like I would recommend you get a midwife immediately like as soon as you find out you're pregnant get on the list because they're amazing. So we found indigenous midwives and my midwife at the time uh an adult uh learner of her language of fluent speakers and her and her and her husband and they only spoke in their language to their kids so I it worked out that way like I don't know how often like how often that happens. Um so yeah so we would get to talking about stuff like that and I had mentioned to her like yeah I don't know if I'm gonna really like force my kids to speak it or not you know like I'm not sure and she was you know like typical Hawanishone woman like strong Mohawk woman is you know what what what are you talking about? Like obviously you have to speak the language to your kid where else are they gonna get it from like they're never gonna have too much they're never gonna have too much of your language right like you have to do this like and you have to I was like oh okay well I guess I'm doing it then like so everyone else had decided for me that we were going to be a language family. And uh I'm a little bit further along than my husband um because I study and he doesn't like him and I are kind of the opposite where his father is a fluent speaker like his his grandparents are a fluent speaker like he's he's from Wequam Kong that has speakers everywhere and he grew up in Sagamuk which has speakers everywhere. So like it was the and and he didn't really study or hit the books probably because he knew more than me just from being alive and who his family was so um so because I like put in a lot of hard work as an adult and made that conscious choice I know more than he does or proficiency wise I guess you could say so I wasn't sure how it was going to go with my husband and same thing I didn't want to force him or put on like put my stuff on him like because we all know like you have to want language for yourself. Like you can't force anyone to learn like that has to be intrinsic in themselves because it's hard. Like you're kind of battling against everything to speak and um you know so many years later it's still a struggle because everything is English and nothing is really here to like help us kind of so anyway so I wasn't sure how that was going to go with my husband and we weren't really getting prepared in any meaningful way for the baby. And there was gonna be a mentor apprentice program here in Rama. So I applied for that and I wanted to bring my son and we were gonna come down for that and didn't get chosen for that and then the program I don't know what happened to it it didn't didn't work out I guess so it was like okay well I guess we'll see what happens um and then you look to like Rochelle Allen and her kids you know and their her kids this was like five years five or six years ago before B dos to get my oldest was born um they were speaking the language fine so I knew it could be Done. Um, and I had found out that her and her husband were speaking English to each other and Nishnawe went to the kids. So I was like, okay, it doesn't have to be like 110% in or not. Um, because for my mental health, like like we're a TV family, like, like I watch Netflix to fall asleep too. Like I can try and feel bad about it and change who I am, um, or I can just accept it and be happy. So once I heard that, I was like, okay, so like we can still like be quote unquote normal, right? And have the things that we like to have, but also do language. So yeah. So my son got here and I only spoke the language to him. And then we I almost came out of maternity leave and uh and then the pandemic happened. And so we moved back to Rama April 1st, 2020. And you know, I could have been in Timbuktu too. Like we had moved back to the community to grow up in community and learn language, and like we were just on lockdown for two years. Um, and obviously my my mental health took a hit, like, you know, everything kind of sucked for various reasons. Um, but the benefit of that was that I had all this extra time with my son, and it was like, even though me and my husband spoke English to each other, it was kind of like all he knew was Nishnava when. And then when he started speaking, he would do like half in I think he had started going to daycare by this point. It had been like this for a long time, so he didn't start daycare until way later. And that was really hard for me because I didn't know what he could say in English, and I didn't know if they were gonna speak the language to him. Um, they I don't think they really did, and I couldn't even go inside the building. I couldn't meet his teachers. I just like left him at the door crying and walk and walked away, and that was our daycare experience. So um, once he started talking, he would like it kind of seemed like whatever language was easier to say the word in, that's the language he would say. So I've never heard her like he would only say beesh, and then I think he used to say car instead of job on. So it was kind of like whatever word was easier, that's the one that he would grab. Um, and then once I had fine, once I had started teaching again, I started a new job uh working for Nigani through the North Shore Tribal Council. I was the language teacher for staff. They're like, we know you can do immersion, so let's do immersion. Um and uh I was like, great, but I don't have childcare. And they're like, Well, we know your son speaks the language anyway, so bring him too. So I was like, okay. Um, it was really hard because he was like two and he was like gingis running everywhere. And um, so that part was hard, like wouldn't recommend that. And um, and it was like all in the land, there was like no running water, we were like in our tents kind of thing. And uh he would try to use some English words, and I took him aside and I was like, I don't even know if he's gonna understand what I'm like what I'm trying to say. I said, like, we jagnashim see mumpe abade queen shinabe and nishna be man can in. Nah, I'm gonna sum. He's like, no how. So so I told him, like, no one here wants to speak English, like you have to speak Nishnaabe. And if I tell you speak Nishnaabe when you're gonna speak, and he was like, Okay, back to the group. He said, and he would switch. And Albert Owl was there, and Albert is an amazing teacher and speaker, really friendly, like grandpa vibes, and uh and would spend a lot of time with my son Bidasya, and so he like worshipped Albert. And so I think he saw Albert speaking the language, and then he wanted to speak the language. So then for probably like two years after that, my son only wanted to speak Nishnaabe when at least when he was with us. Like I didn't know what he could say in English, like at all. Like, and I would ask them at daycare and be like, can he like communicate himself? Does he understand? Does he have words? And they're like, Oh yeah. I was like, okay, because I have no idea. Um, and I would go places with him, and even if he knew, like you know right away if someone can speak the language or not, he didn't care, he was still speaking Nishnaab and when. So one time we were in a hotel and we got on the elevator, and this old guy gets on the elevator with us, and he's the Jaganosh, and he looks at Vidaski and says something to him like, Hey little guy, are you going for an elevator ride? Or and then Vidasya looks at that old man and he looks at me and he goes, When a shmava. And then it was like, ding, that man got to his floor and got out, and he just looks so puzzled, like what just happened? Like, what language were those people speaking? Because I'm white and Vidasya is dark and we're not speaking English or French. So he had no idea what the heck was going on. Um, so he only wanted to speak Nishnave when for like a long time. So like my story is gonna as a parent is gonna be different from a lot of people's because we it happened during COVID. So as much as COVID sucked, being isolated actually was like really good for for our language. Um once he hit four and was like uh like once the the once they started tried to start an immersion program here in Rama, then he became like really aware that like he was different and he spoke the language better than like even some of his teachers, and everyone was asking him like how to say this and that in the language, and he did not like that at all. He would be like, I don't know, I don't speak the language, I don't know Nishnave when um and I think he just didn't have the language to be like, I just want to be a kid, like leave me alone and I don't want to be singled out from anyone, even if the thing that I'm singled out for is really good. I don't think kids want to be different. Uh they just want to be a kid. So he went through like a whole identity crisis where he did not want, he was like, I don't want to speak. Why do I gotta speak Nishnabe when like Nokamas doesn't speak it, like Jack doesn't speak it, none of my teachers speak it. Like, um, and so I said the like Nishnabe Kadome, we engage Nishnabe, meaning like we're Nishnabe. That's why I said Jack speaks Shagunash even because he has a shogunash, you're not a shogunash. Um, still wasn't good enough. Like, okay, but like, you know, but there's other Nishnabe people that aren't speaking it, right? Like really smart kid, like really probably too young to be cluing into these things at four. Like, that's gotta be so there's a part that I didn't foresee happening. Um, and it was like all summer long, like we come back to the same conversation, and then it was like, okay, I'm just we're just gonna have to talk about residential schools now, because like no answers, like this is the real reason why. Um, and I had explained to him like a couple of times, like in Nishinaabe when and in English to really like make sure that he was like getting it. Like, you know, like a long time ago, this was all Nishinaabe. Well, this is Nishnabe land still, but it was just us here. And then the Jaginash came and they wanted our land because they could get rich from it, but we were in the way. So, how did they get rid of us? They started residential schools. So I said, the take kids your age away from home, and they only knew Nishnave when and they weren't allowed to speak it because they knew if they took our language away, then we were no longer as strong as we are. I said, that's why, like, and I told them, I said, I never spoke Nishnaabe when growing up. I always wanted to. Um, and uh, so I always wanted to, and and that's why I work really hard to learn, because I know that when we speak Nishnabewin, we're healthier and happier and smarter, and that's our language. It's really good for you. And I said, if you want to speak English or Nishnaabewin, I'm gonna be proud of you no matter what, but at least you have the choice. So I said, I didn't have that choice growing up. I could only speak English, so that's why I said we and Nosa are working really hard to speak so that you have something that we we never had. And um I think he was finally satisfied with that answer. Like, okay, like, you know, there's no more why why whys after that. Um, but now he still kind of just solely wants to speak English. And and uh like sometimes we'll say, like, I'll say Nishnave and and then he'll try and say it, or he'll say it. A couple of times I've said that to him, and I see him really like the wheels are spinning, wheels are spinning, and he's like, I don't know how to say that. And I could tell he feels really badly. So I kind of stopped doing that because I don't want shame like to be, you know, like a I don't want to pass that on to my son. Um, because I we've had enough of that and that's not helpful. Um my husband will pretend like he doesn't understand him. Right? Like when ash, when ish or like ani gia, and then Vinasi realizes he has to say it and for some reason that seems to work. Like I don't know, but so it's a struggle for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:57

It doesn't work in our house. When we go like, oh guys, is it in the Shabai Mun. Like they know that we can speak English, so they are just like, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:09

And I don't know if you I don't know if you get this, but my son my son, he'll he'll argue with me and I'll only speak the language and he'll be like, what does that mean in in English? He'll say he'll say you're what you're what you're saying, it's not real. It's not real life. Like speak real like speak real life. And I'll be and I'll just be speaking in the language and I'll be like, No, I don't I I don't understand English. I only speak in Ishna Baimwand and he'll be like, Yeah, you do. He'll be like, Yeah, you speak it. And he's like, you I hear you t speaking English. So and I'm only speaking in the language too. So I don't know. I don't know if you get that sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:53

Oh yeah, Bidasuka totally understands that we uh understand English, but I think he knows with his dad, like I don't think he thinks that Bida Bidavan doesn't understand English. I think he's like catching the hint, like, okay, you want me to say it in Nishnava and win. So yeah, I don't know. But I also think like that, I think that yeah, I don't know. I don't know, it's hard to say. But I think with Vidastaga, like I think it's also just his personality. He's like the typical older child sensitive, and he's at that age where he like really is all about Gusha and Nose and he really wants to like please us. So yeah, I think that might be like personality thing. But yeah, he knows for sure that that we don't speak or that we speak and understand English. Something cool that happened though is um this past summer we went up to We Kwam Kong for the powwow, and uh we have a plot of well, my mother-in-law has a plot of uh like lakefront property in Rabbit Island, and we're starting to build the family camp up there. So we have our trailer and we try to go as often as we can, not as not as much as we'd like to. So we went up for the powwow this past summer, and we I think we waited till bedtime and because we didn't want to take the Friday off of work or something. So we're like, let's just go at bedtime and we'll drive straight through, and then the kids will wake up and we'll be in wiki. So that's what we did, and must have been around 11 or 12 o'clock, and we reached the res. You know, typical res, like the roads are awful and bumpy, and there's like res dogs barking and chasing after the car. So Vidasiga woke up in the middle of the night and started looking around and saw that we were in wiki. And uh he just started speaking Nishnave on his own. Like we didn't have to prompt him or nothing. Like he was pointing out everything like oh shataha, nishke, batino knipshak, right? Babaya what oh nishke tiggle knango suck shimming. And I was like, Oh my god, like and then uh maybe I had commented on it to my husband or something that he was speaking the language, and then Bhidasya said, We kwam kongaiam gada nishnavem. So we're in wiki and we speak the language here, and like it always makes like I was like, you know, like my eyes were getting misty, and he just he loves it out there. He's such an outdoorsy guy. I love just like it's one of my favorite things on earth is to bring him up there and just watch him outside on the water on the beach, and he's just his little spirit is like so free and happy, and that's just like my vision, my version of heaven. If I could just sit there and watch my son like just sew in his element, and so it's something about being outside, but I also think it's a thing about Wiki because we're outside the same for whatever reason, but there's these little moments I catch him where like his little spirit is so happy, and then you don't have to force him to speak, like then he wants to speak it. And then when my youngest son, Biduero came around, he was born I don't even know when he was born. He's old now, I second timelines. Um so he's 19 months old now. Um, and then that summer after he the baby was born, that's when he was going through his little identity crisis. And then as the baby got older, we I kinda didn't even think of it. One day we finally said, like, we have to teach the baby Nishnaabiman, like so he learns too. And so Bidasya really wants to speak the language to his little brother, and we'll catch him, like he'll find language books even though he can't read yet, but he knows what the book is is about, and he'll start reading in Nishnabi Win to the baby. And I notice he always talks to the baby in Nishnabi wen. So there's there's still little moments there where we where we don't have to force him. So I don't know what that is. I don't know if that's like a tip for other parents or something, but those are the those are the moments that we found with our son.

SPEAKER_08 1:15:17

Like I don't know how many times I got misty eyed while you were talking.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:23

Yeah, that's awesome though. You mentioned uh some tips. Do you have any other for other parents that are maybe thinking about doing this or they just have a young child? What are some some uh advice that you'd have for them?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:39

Um that's a good question. I I thought I had an answer for that, and I don't remember. Um what are some tips for parents? I don't know. If I knew then I wouldn't be doing it, I think. Well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_08 1:16:00

A couple of things that like you were talking about, like one you were talking about, um you know, I'm just a TV girl and I like to watch Netflix and I just just accepted that about myself. That helped me a lot because I learned that the hard way, that cramming every moment with studying when you're nursing or you have like a 15-minute gap because your baby's down or whatever, and trying to get study time in, like I broke. And you you being like, I watch Netflix and it makes me happy, and I fill out my cup, like gave me permission to be like, I can totally fill up my own cup, it's gonna do better for me and my own family than to be cramming and be unhappy and being stressed out all the time and not sleeping and everything right. Um and then also like I think what you said also about allowing Bidasagay to speak when he wants to speak and it coming from him, like you said, that drive has to come from yourself, it has to come from within. And I think you like demonstrated or explained perfectly how you supported that. Like he speaks when he wants to speak, and we experienced the power struggle too of like you pretend like you don't know, or you pretend you just want to hear it in the language, and then if they can't figure it out, even though they know it, like somewhere it's stored in there, but they can't access it or they can't grab it, like then they start feeling inadequate, and then it becomes like you said, the shame thing, and like I'm not doing the shame thing anymore. Like you said, like we've been through enough. And it's also really nice to hear that, like you had the residential school talk with him as so little because as have we, and I think like it's appropriate, especially with who we are as a people. Like I don't think there's any other way to get around it, and sometimes that means breaking into English because how do you explain concepts where they feel safe about it as well, right? Where they feel like, okay, this is scary stuff to listen to, but are you good? Um, like trying to make sure that when they understand it, that they are also emotionally taken care of, too. So I know that like having any tips and whatnot is a really big question. Um, because like you said, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it, or we all know that.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:28

But yeah, like those were like three things that I really noticed that you helped me with or that you've said or I I think like if I was gonna say a tangible tip and uh like I don't do this myself as much anymore. Um, but I actually just started reflecting on it, like hey, I need to do that more. Is um I always kept I always kept a um a running uh app, a running note in my notes app of stuff that I wanted to learn how to say, like or like oh I don't know how to say that, right? Like, so we went to Italy this past summer as a family for vacation and we got to go to Pompeii. So we're my son was like really into volcanoes, and like I don't know how to talk about a volcano, like I don't know what a volcano is, or the volcano is erupting, and he's like, is it you know, so all this stuff. So I would write it down in English, like volcano, like the volcano is erupting, like you know, like that's ash, it's not like ice or smoke and stuff like that. Um, so I always have a like um just a list of stuff that I need to learn how to say, and then that way anytime I'm near a speaker, I kind of corner them and I'm like, how do you say this? I say that. And that's what got me really far is just doing that constantly. Um and I used to worry that I would that I was probably bugging speakers. Um, but I come to learn like like nine times out of ten speakers love to see that you want to learn the language um and you're not bugging them. Um, I think they probably wish that we would ask them more. I'm sure sometimes I have annoyed people or someone's trying to eat their lunch. Maybe don't bug someone while they're eating or something. Um, but speakers actually like they really want to help you and they really love when you ask questions. And I know myself as a teacher. If no one asks me questions, I'm like, wow, I guess these guys aren't serious about learning then. Like you should always be asking questions. And our time with them is is running out. So I do that. Um, and I know that my learning has plateaued because I don't have anything on my on my list. Um, and that's impossible because there's always something that you could be learning, right? Like I'm if I could do this whole interview in Nishnaweimwin, then um then I wouldn't need that notes app of my to-do list of stuff that I want to learn. But obviously I do, right? So um I think that's like a tangible tip. And then the other thing, right, is like study your grammar, the language follows patterns. Um, you need to learn how to conjugate your verbs. And so I keep all of those verb paradigms or patterns. Like I have just one um photo album in my photos of just conjugating verbs, another game on. And I still refer to it, I still pull it out when I'm when I'm like if I'm teaching or in public, like, oh, I don't know how to say they will help us. Um, and then I I pull that out. And that's kind of like how I learned uh how I memorized those patterns is just consulting it enough times and also like being in immersion enough times that eventually something sticked and and made sense. But yeah, actually there was uh a young, a young Nishnave learner who just had a baby recently, and then he started having the panic about how am I gonna speak language to my kid and like what do I do? Should I do this? Should I do that? Um, and I was like, do what you want, like do what makes you happy. If you're like either way, you're working on language, like don't like your kid is gonna be way happier if you're happy, right? Um, so I was like, you need to do like whatever's gonna make you happy. It took me a long time to to figure that out, um myself also. Um, but it's made it's made a world of of difference. And I think also like for for Bhidasi, like when we had Ashkita Nishnava and Jik this past summer in Rama, he was able to. I brought him out a couple of times for dinner break, like after his little summer camp was over. Um, and it it was hard. He needed the reminders again, like Eggwa Shaganashim kein Shinabam, like he needed those reminders. Um, but by the end, he was like, it was really helpful for him to see, like he loved Ms. Gwanquit, like he really loved seeing like another like man, right? Or young, not an elder, right? He's not young. Not an elder, he's not not an elder who speaks the language and wants to speak the language. Um, like Albert was like was a big hero of his too. I remember one time I picked him up at daycare and I wanted to know, Sarah Nishajnikas, and he goes, Albert. So it's like, no, I want to know who your friends are at daycare, not who are your like old man fluent speaker friends. Um, so I think it helps for our kids to see to be in those spaces, like even if they're not gonna be there the whole time. Um, kind of similarly to how we were talking about like how we didn't know it was possible, right? Like you don't know that it's possible or that it can be done. Like you kind of need those role models to demonstrate, even if you're not gonna learn language from them, that you're gonna they're gonna see other kids or other people that are speaking the language.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:28

So whenever possible, you know, try and be around other people, other speakers where they're speaking, so that they see, you know, it's not just in our house. It's not just our house language. I think another thing was um and well, and I don't do I don't oh go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:49

Oh, I was I don't I don't bring my kids to everything either though, because the same going back to being happy, sometimes like I need to fo I need to focus on my learning before I can fill like fill my own cup before I can fill someone else's. So sometimes so they come like if I'm game for it, or like no, this is Gash's time and like I need to learn for myself. So anyway, sorry, what were we gonna say Ozala?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:12

Oh, just kind of the same thing. Like, I think people who've been learning language they want to keep learning at that same rate after they become a parent, and you just don't have the time or you just don't like you you have to parent, right? You don't have the same brain capacity when you don't have kids. So I think that's a thing to for parents to know about too is like it's okay that you're not gonna be learning at the same pace that you were before having kids.

SPEAKER_08 1:25:47

Yeah, and like I lugged my kids around everywhere I could for like the first uh two, three, two, three years. And I just like was like, and that's that, like I'm gonna fill up my own cup. Like I don't feel like I'm not gonna learn anything because I'm gonna be with that. So like either I don't like I'm just there to like let them hear, or I'm there on my own learning because like the two just generally don't happen at the same time for me. So I'm like, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:20

Oh no, totally. And that actually reminds me not just as a parent, but like across all um when or like language reclamation work is when you're a learner and you have like any kind of moderate form of success, you get pulled into teaching a lot. Um I thought that was like just a me thing or just a Nishnave thing, and it's like no, that's every language that phenomenon happens for whatever reason. So I so I think we have to you have to be really vigilant about your own learning. So um, so I've been denied learning opportunities because I'm quote unquote too advanced. Um, and it's like that's not how this works. Like you kind of always have to have to be learning. So I think it again, it's I guess I'm going back to the same message of filling your cup before you're able to fill anyone else's. Is um I think it is important that when once you learn language, you share it or pass it on in whichever way possible, whether if you're if you're not gonna be like speak at kids, whether it's teaching or something. So I think that is important, but I think like we also can't lose sight of our own learning. And it's not it's not selfish to do that because um, yeah, because you will plateau. And if you have kids, like, you know, it's just a struggle to get to bedtime most days. And like that's just the real the reality, and that's okay too.

SPEAKER_08 1:27:54

Thank you for saying it.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:59

Are there any resources that you would recommend people to learn from?

SPEAKER_04 1:28:05

Uh, I don't know, because I well Marianne Corbier's course books from Laurentian are out of print, but uh Kenji Gaywinteg turned the took it them over, and Amy Debossi is developing an online course from them. And uh so I guess so I guess stay tuned on that through Kenji Gaywinteg um to see what what came of those because it's being updated and it's even being turned into like some cart sort of online format where I think you can even learn at your own pace kind of thing. So that one's gonna be really good. And I just saw Mani on on Monday, or sorry, that doesn't mean anything to anyone. I just saw her the four days ago, and uh she saw what Amy had done with it so far, and she's really, really excited and happy. So I think it's gonna be really good. I would also yeah, look into I think she teaches Majta Da courses through Kenjigaywante. Um, I haven't taken anything from Ninotic, so I can't speak from experience, but I noticed when in the game, then we had a lot more uh learners come to Ashkinish Navim Jig. So I feel like he probably gets them to a point where they're like ready for immersion. Um, so even though we don't work with him, like we kind of are, because we're getting a lot of his like his his graduates and stuff. So that's probably a good program too. Um, and then anything out of Minnesota, even though you know it's a quote unquote different dialect, don't be like Ozawa and get thrown off by dialect because the patterns and the grammar is the same. Um, I think it is important to pick a dialect eventually so that you sound like you're from um that's one thing that I like about Nishab women. I like when I hear someone speak, I can usually tell where they're from. By how they're speaking. So it's cool to sound like you're from somewhere. But at the beginning, it kind of doesn't matter. Like you just learn anything that you can. And then once you get advanced, then you can be like supremacist like the rest of us. Yeah. But I think I think they have so much success coming out of Minnesota because like this is just a theory. But they have, I feel like they have speakers than us. Their speakers are a lot older. So I kind of wonder if they're seeing it a lot more rapidly than us. And there's a there's a greater sense of urgency. So I kind of wonder if that's why they have more programs that way. More piece, like in in Ontario region, that there's more, there's more language happening. People and make friends and go to language tables and and courses. Um and then do that. If you can find like a peer hello.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:58

It was, yeah, it cut out again. But it was a you're talking about language tables.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:03

Oh well.

SPEAKER_08 1:31:11

I don't I don't really think like anything to to ask, ask. Um, but that's probably because I know a lot about you already. So I'm trying to think of like things that I would have asked if I didn't know you as well. Um I guess one thing that I kind of wanted to like spitball with you was just kind of I don't know, I like I just kind of had this conversation the other day. Um but we were kind of talking about like English and Shna Bemwen and like you know, goals that were like were kind of going back, so I didn't really want to re-bring it all up, but I did kind of want to spitball back and forth just between you know, we started as like wanting to stay solely in Nishna Bemwen, and then that has evolved because the kids' English speaking skills are growing, and so the way that they're thinking like I'm having to use Nishnaba Bemwin in ideas and expressions and stories on things that are way well past my abilities in speaking. So a lot of English has come into the house for more than one reason, and um I don't know, I just was kind of like wanting to talk to other parents that are doing what we're or have some of the same goals or going through some of the same things, just about you know, the navigation through that um and normalizing some of those uh things. I know that there's a whole spectrum of people and you know how they feel about it and I think in finding like kind of my friends and my um like there's a couple of you out there who are doing the same thing and you know one thing that we spoke about, for instance, was um you know, I can't express my true personality through Nishnapingwind because I don't really have the discourse markers and the vocabulary to talk about all the intertwined things in between. And um, you did kind of already speak on that, but you know, I decided that like I wasn't willing to sacrifice like sharing those things that I love just because I don't have the words for it, and so I do it in English because it makes me happy for my kids to be able to learn learn who I am as a person, um, regardless of whether or not that's in the language or not. Like, would I like to be able to do it in the in the language? Yeah, and I and I do try, but I'm also not gonna like not have that relationship with them because I can't. I I want to still be able to laugh and everything. And so yeah, I know that that's kind of going back and that it's that's like deep in there, but that's something that I always am wondering or curious about other people, and I do kind of already know where you stand, but maybe being able to share like I don't know, is that making any sense?

SPEAKER_04 1:34:01

No, yeah, we've already had this conversation personally a bajillion times, but your listeners haven't been privy to that. But yeah, 110% the same, the same with you. I think for me, what finally broke, like we were pretty strict about uh the Shava when in the house. And then once I got pregnant, um, and I was my husband was working out of town four days a week, and then so he was gone. So I was pretty much like a single mother for half of the time, and I was working during the day and going to school on the evenings and weekends, and we were building the house, and Bidasya was a toddler, and then like the easiest thing to like was like, okay, I'm just gonna speak in English now for some things, and then also realizing too, like that we're missing out on a lot of things. Um, you know, like I really like the Harry Potter books, and Vidasya is not old enough, but like when he gets older, like I'm gonna read them to him because there's no Harry Potter and Nishnawi when does that mean like we can't bond in that way? I can't share my favorite things with him because it's not in the language. And mostly like, do my kids feel safe um with with themselves and with me? And sometimes like their emotional safety and like I want my son to be, I would love it for him to be a fluent speaker of Nishina Bang when, but not if he's gonna be like a toxic male, because we didn't teach him how to talk about feelings properly, right? Like, so he has to be in touch with that. I don't care what language that's in, like let's do it in Chinese, like if if if it means that like you're gonna be like healthy and happy. Um, so yeah, and and then same thing is like I don't want him to have shame or guilt around that. Like, that's not one of our teachings, that's not like our values, like that's intergenerational trauma, but we're trying to break cycles here. And so I had to say to him, like, yeah, I'm proud of you, whether you speak Nishnaabe when or English, but at least you have a choice. Yeah. So, um, and then like on the flip side, there's times where, you know, and like yelling at the kids in English, and I realized I could have said all of that in Nishinaabe when. Um, so it's like that snowball effect, right? Like it's a slippery slope, like it's it's vigilant, it's it's all the time. But, you know, like we're all just trying our best, and that's all that we can do. So you know, like me, and maybe he'll be a fluent speaker or maybe not, but at least we didn't have to keep reminding our kids that the language and culture is important because like we just lived it ourselves. So at least he'll have those values instilled in him, and it's not us preaching it, it's us like living those teachings is like this is what we value as a family because this is what we do every day. So, like he'll have some language, like how much, like we'll see. Um, but at least, you know, like it at least he'll always have those values there.

SPEAKER_08 1:37:21

Yeah, that was powerful. Well said. Holy cow. It was like mind blown when you said that last part.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:29

Um yeah, and like the other thing, like I know this is hopefully this is just the audio, no one sees what I look like coming home from the gym. So no one can see me, but like noabishk is like I'm white. Um, I'm white passing, right? And so for me, I had I had my own identity crisis where it's like I'm Nishna Nave, but what does that mean? Like I don't I don't look Nishnave, like I don't live like Nishnabe, like you know, and um I want to say that don't I don't feel bad for myself that I have white passing privilege, and no one should feel bad for me either, um, because I've had it pretty easy. So I don't ever want to come across like and I probably did better learning language because of that, because I was able to do well in school, like I and learn the grammar aspect. So I think I definitely have a lot of privilege. Um but the reality was like I did have a I did feel like uh ashamed of who I was and like what does it mean to be Nishnave? Like I'm not sure. Um, and if I wanted to pass as white, I could, right? Umce I learned my language a little bit more. Um I don't I almost forget that that was a phase of my life. Like I completely forget. And sometimes I'll see beginners that like break down and have all these, and I'm like, oh yeah, like that was me like 20 years ago, 15 years ago. Like I totally forgot. Um, so the language is definitely healing for sure. Like you can say whatever you want about Nishnave people, and it I know it's not true, it doesn't bother me at all because I fully I understand like the crappy parts of being Nishinaabe, but I also understand the most beautiful parts of being Nishinave and like I know who we are and who I am and where I come from, and like I am proud of that for sure. Like 110 uh wouldn't change it for the world. And so all of that to say is like identity was a big missing piece for me, and I'm I hope that my kids don't have to go through that. Like they'll always know that they're Nishnave and hopefully they'll know the good pieces as opposed to me just knowing like all the bad stuff about it, right? So that's the other thing. Like we're we're instilling those values, and they're also um like life is not gonna be easy for them being Nishnave people. So they have to be strong in their identity and know where they come from and who they are. Um, because like I'm not always gonna be there to protect them. Um, but I am giving them these tools that are that are gonna help them thrive in their life.

SPEAKER_08 1:40:17

Mission, yeah. That's that's kind of where I hope I didn't freeze. No, that was good. You you we heard you for that whole thing, which thank thankfully Mic dropped.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:31

No, it's good.

unknown 1:40:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:40:33

Yeah, that's also the realization I think that I've kind of come to is that right now, like I I they're probably my kids are probably going to need to, you know, continue their learning as they get older, probably uh after like it, and that's okay with me. And that like what you said is that for me, it's that I grew up so disconnected that um I'm I'm European passing, I'm not white passing. Um but felt so disconnected. I was like, what's the fastest way for me to feel my like to be Nishinaabe? What's the fastest way? And that to me was language. So that's why I went into the language route, and then I'm like, that's all I wanted as a child too. So at least if they know who they are because they know their language to a degree, then they are that much more stronger as a person and their identity, and that's kind of why I'm doing what I'm doing, and easing up a bit on myself on the pressures of like well, they don't conjugate properly or whatever. Like, it's like, well, they can figure that out later. So again, I very much value your like no paw win. Like just wise words holy.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:48

Yeah, um, I think that's about all we we have. I think that's good. I think that's a good good way to end, good note to end on. I'm just like just your knowledge, uh just amazing in language, and now you have this newfound knowledge of raising kids in the language and what all that brings.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:10

And say that one more time, Jess.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:12

It's not even funny anymore. All right. Yeah, well, Miguelch was um having those role models and seeing that it can be done. Um, so I think I listened to your post and it really affirming and powerful you guys. I think it's I think this is really important work that you guys are doing and uh sharing other people's journeys so that you know other people listening can realize that they can do it alone.

SPEAKER_08 1:42:51

Yeah, thank you for coming on. Oh yeah, coming zooming like on the web. But um, yeah, I you are a role model for me, big time, and uh and a bestie to me as well, and and I'm really hoping we can do some get together solo as well as with our kids so that you know maybe they can rub off each on each other in good ways. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:18

Yeah, I feel the same way.

SPEAKER_08 1:43:22

All right, well, let me so mean at you. Yeah. We'll talk soon.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:35

All right, Bomby. Everyone's bomb off now. Bomby.

SPEAKER_07 1:43:39

Bom up here.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:47

Thanks so much for listening to our podcast. And weighing our sound to reach us by email. Find us at our sound period podcast at gmail.com. You can find all of our links to my media, Patreon, Instagram, etc., which is linked to r period slash an oxound. Our theme sound was done by myself, me and Michael Cubic Clay, and artwork completed by two men of my younger brother, and we go.