S2E10 : Teyolihwa:ke & Marsha Ireland

We are thrilled to finally release our first ever video podcast episode as we host our S2 Episode 10 guests: Teyolihwa:ke (Dominique) & Marsha Ireland who are Turtle Clan from Onyota’á:ka (Oneida Nation of the Thames) as they share their journey with OSL (Oneida Sign Language).

Join us for our first time on YouTube at: https://youtu.be/fTtYGXgz1WQ

Dominique Ireland is an Onyota’á:ka Deaf artist, cultural mediator, and consultant from the Oneida of the Thames Nation and a member of the Turtle Clan. Her Oneida name is Teyolihwa:ke. Deeply committed to her people, language, and culture, Dominique has been actively involved with the youth council of the Association of Iroquois and Allied Indians (AIAI). Trained as a cultural facilitator, she collaborates with Montréal Arts Interculturel (MAI), where she initially served as a consultant supporting accessibility for Deaf communities before beginning an internship in 2024 with the Department of Accessibility and Innovative Practices through the Conseil des arts de Montréal’s CultivART program, under the mentorship of Claudia Parent. Performing under the artist name Hazelique, she has presented work at events such as Sister in Motion, the International Day of the Deaf, the International Cohabiting Symposium of the Observatory of Cultural Mediations, and UQAM’s Rights, Citizenship and Disability Summer School. Her artistic practice in American Sign Language and Oneida Sign Language centers on the cultural significance of sign languages and reflects her lived experience and identity as a Deaf Oneida woman.

Marsha Ireland is a proud Deaf member of the Oneida Nation of the Thames and the Turtle Clan. Her Oneida name is Teyuhuhtakweku. She has dedicated her life to advocacy, education, and the wellbeing of future generations. Marsha is married to Max Ireland, a hearing member of the Bear Clan, and together they have five Deaf Oneida children and fourteen grandchildren, including two great‑granddaughters. She is the creator of Oneida Sign Language (OSL) and has worked tirelessly to revitalize and share the language across Turtle Island. Through presentations, community engagement, and educational work, she supports Deaf First Nations and raises awareness of Deaf Indigenous peoples’ lived experiences. Marsha has been invited to speak with and educate First Nations communities, including offering land acknowledgements and the Oneida Thanksgiving Address in Oneida Sign Language. Recognized by many as an Elder, she considers herself an advocate and educator, working to ensure a stronger, more inclusive future for generations to come.

Miigwech to Indigenous Screen Office for their support of this episode.

linktr.ee/enweying.oursound

Many people have reached out to ask where they can donate or support revitalization efforts. This link leads to our Link Tree which has a Patreon as well as "Buy me a Coffee" where you can donate to our families cause and initiatives we do to support learning in the home and across our communities. Miigwech

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:20

Welcome to Enweighing, our sound podcast. This is a grassroots podcast intended for those raising or helping to raise children in an indigenous language.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

A special shout out to the Indigenous Screen Office for making season two of En Weighing possible. Get you me gwetch.

unknown 0:47

I knew that was coming.

SPEAKER_08 0:50

Oh shakuna. Get you nandam.

SPEAKER_11 0:56

Um Wa Wa D Bajmo Wad the Bajmo ying Wad the Bajmo Yang for our listeners. Um yeah, I'm just really excited. Gindash and Shiziayan.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Uh up to go. Mommy quandum, you know uh genandum. No modus minoya minimum geo.

SPEAKER_11 1:28

Okay. Any more synonyms in there? Pandora's box. Um, uh so uh we have this is a really unique episode for uh N Weiging. Um my mic's way over here, so I have to talk into um kind of to the side here. Um but guess what? You can see me. Um we have a really unique episode. Uh I don't know what episode we're on now, ninth, eighth, or something. But um yeah, this is uh being recorded through video because um we have two really awesome guests who uh we're gonna uh share space with, share um capacity with, um through Zoom, through video. Um as they are OSL scientist, like I don't know if you wanted me to like introduce them if you wanted to, but this would be episode 10. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 2:37

Um but yeah, we're we're putting this on video. We'll see how it turns out, and however it turns out, that's the way it was meant to be. But the reason why is because we have our guests, our OSL Sign Language speakers. Um Marcia Ireland and Dominique, her daughter Dominique Ireland who are um revitalizing the Oneida Sign Language um and they're language activists and they've done many presentations and I've seen them present um a couple times. Um and I Yeah, I've just been blown away every time they present, and I think that's common thought among many people who've seen them present. And so I thought that we should they should definitely be on on our podcast and share on our little platform that we have.

SPEAKER_11 4:03

Um don't get humble now. Just kidding. See, that's how I feel about it, but now that we have awesome people, not now, but like not that we're not awesome people, but now that we've had season two with a bunch of amazing guests, I'm like, okay, I don't mind if we reach more ears because I want our guests' um experiences and stories and journeys to be highlighted and for uh that to reach more people.

SPEAKER_06 4:39

Yeah. So I think their message is very uh important um to share with people and I know that um it'll open people's minds, I hope. Or I I know it well, and I guess I I hope as much as mine has. Um just excited for for y'all y'all listeners, y'all watchers watching now.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Oh, you mean because of Zoom? I'm like, what is happening?

SPEAKER_06 5:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 5:22

So we're we recorded this on Zoom and then we're gonna put it up on YouTube and then Yeah, Zoom seemed to be just the best for everyone when we were talking about logistics of how to make it happen because um like we have um interpreters as well, and coordinate, you know, six people's lives, I guess one for us, but we both have separate stuff we have to worry about, you and I, Monty. Um so we all agreed that Zoom was gonna be the best way to do this, and so yeah, I'm I'm really hoping that this when it's um published and it comes out like when it's all been edited, and not that I don't even know how much editing we'll be able to do on it, but um that it comes out really uh like that Zoom is it it makes it um watchable and it it the footage is in good quality and stuff because I think um it's gonna be a really good episode. I'm stoked. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 6:32

So we're still gonna release it on on our podcast platform. So when through audio? Yeah, so you'll still know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

So you're still there's a lot of editing for Emma Line. Just kidding.

SPEAKER_06 6:50

Well, there is, but so you're still gonna hear it, but if you want the full experience of what we want to get our the message across because it is sign language, so to see that visual representation of it.

SPEAKER_11 7:08

Yeah, I highly recommend. Like, not that I wanna be seen on video, but like if you're listening to this, I'd find a screen somewhere and the link. Yeah, most of our episodes are on YouTube, right?

SPEAKER_06 7:24

The audio, yeah.

SPEAKER_11 7:25

Yeah, so this will just be through our YouTube platform as well.

SPEAKER_06 7:29

Yeah. So yeah, all of our episodes are audio posted on YouTube, but not visual posted.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

So lucky you, now you get to know what we look like. Okay. You probably already did, but um, I've never recorded in my room before, in our room.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

So all right. Bunch of new stuff.

SPEAKER_11 7:56

No, very, very, very excited to get started here. Um, so we'll probably have to chop this until we uh get everybody figured out and then start.

SPEAKER_09 8:12

So yeah. Jimmy Gwitch, stay tuned. Alrighty. Should we start? Or are you just figuring things out more too?

SPEAKER_06 8:31

I think we should be good.

SPEAKER_07 8:48

I'm just going to interpret what I just said in Oneida Sign Language. I just said hello, my name is Marsha. I am Oneida. Oneida Nation. I am of the turtle clan.

SPEAKER_04 9:37

My name is Dominique. Remember the turtle club? During this interview, the interpreter that will be interpreting for me is Serafine.

SPEAKER_06 10:15

I will add uh here uh from one eye of the Thames in Ontario.

SPEAKER_11 10:36

So thanks again for um introducing yourselves. I can introduce myself just in case um um you don't already know, and for any fresh new viewers, um I'll I'll translate into English afterwards as well. Um so my name is Emiline. My spirit name is uh Mashko Gobwit, strong standing woman. Um my reserve is from Long Plain, Manitoba, and we're just so happy to have everyone here tonight, and we're really excited to get started.

SPEAKER_06 11:17

Umti, I don't know if you wanted to introduce yourself as well or uh, dash gun zip, and uh, shogunashi unakazia. So I just said uh my spirit name, uh blue sky eagle. Um from Chippaz of the Thames, First Nation. So our our name for the our area is Antler River in the language. Um Turtle Clan.

SPEAKER_04 11:55

What was the first word before river?

SPEAKER_06 11:58

Uh Antler. Yeah, so Antler River. Um so yeah, I'm excited for you guys to be here, and we're both of us are just happy you guys agreed to come on, and it's the first time we're doing this on kind of video recording, so we'll see how it turns out. Hopefully it turns out well, and yeah, just looking forward to sharing you guys, like you guys sharing your story and getting that out to people.

SPEAKER_04 12:43

I would just like to mention that this is our first experience doing a podcast interview as well, with the addition of discussing this topic as well. So I feel it's mutual benefit to be able to get this information out to the audience as well as accessibility for us to tell our story and to have it more visible and um to hear our story as well as you know how you know we could work together and to have everybody see, you know, from a different perspective as well.

SPEAKER_11 13:21

Love that. Um that actually um transitions really nicely into um, you know, we want to know what you're most comfortable and what is the most respectful um terminology for um the deaf community, what you prefer for us to use um slash what you prefer.

SPEAKER_04 13:54

Mom, do you would you like to respond?

SPEAKER_07 13:59

Okay. Um I think that's a good question. Terminology, um, you know, it's a big thing, especially with disability, deaf, uh, hearing impaired, all of that kind of thing. Um it's something that it, you know, our words are our medicine, and so it's really important to understand that the words that we use have such an impact and and have symbols and have understanding embedded into them. And it's all around us, whether it's spoken language or sign language. And so making sure that we are aware of that and we can we can take that medicine and understand the difference between what we have and what was given to us um with the English language, and knowing that they're not always the same and they're not always appropriate. I am deaf. That is how I identify, which doesn't mean what some people think it means as an I can't do this, I can't hear, I can't drive, I can't work, I can't do all of this. That's not what that means for me. Um, that's what often people think of when they hear the word deaf, but it's not a problem that I have, it's just a way that I communicate differently, is all that means to me.

SPEAKER_04 15:18

Dominique Sheusane, to add on to her comment, um I feel very um along the same lines, and it doesn't mean that the word or terminology of deaf is um like a bad or negative terminology, but just the common use of disabled, um, that's a colonial um approach to it, um, a medical um process and perspective that is how they have set it up through their systems and how they process it. But in our view and and within our community, um you know, we are one moment for the interpreter. So, you know, we have the responsibility to carry on our you know teachings and our culture, and with the impact of settlers, um, you know, um meeting settlers is just the impact of the colonization. And so we are what also would like to point out that we are not speaking out on behalf of you know everybody that is deaf. Um, just more specifically, we would like to highlight, you know, maybe accommodating um, you know, the person you are interacting with, right? This all belongs to who I am and my character and me as a person, not just as somebody that's deaf or just disabled, right? So you know, we don't, you know, sometimes we are not all from the same community, and so sometimes you I don't know anybody, I'm not from that community, I don't know that community, right? And so I focus on my community, my family traditions, and where my roots are, and so that um just that shows and that's my identity of you know who I am and where I'm from. So I do not rely on the disabled community as a whole. I rely on my community, and so if I were to go ahead and say that I would prefer deaf, um, I'm also not really speaking on behalf of like necessarily just from that community, right? Sometimes you look at it through the lens of like if you're interacting with a doctor, right? And he has to make some documentation in regards to my health, and that is a part of the documentation that is needing to be written in there, then that's fine. But for general, you know, society or my daily interactions, sometimes if somebody asks me, I will just say I am Oneida. I will not add, you know, specifically I'm deaf or just specifically I am disabled. Really, I just feel like those are just too many layers or terminology, like I know who I am, and so when somebody asks me, I'll just simply reply reply, I am Oneida. And when I'm interacting with um certain people and we discuss terms, sometimes you know, we are just content with understanding that our hands are our medicine, right? And we need to recognize that what the way we communicate with sign language is medicine.

SPEAKER_11 19:02

Thank you. Um yeah, we we really want to make sure that um that that is shared um and that it's an understanding that uh everyone everyone can um can respect and honor. Um so I really appreciate uh the response. Um Monty.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Yeah, it's just um I just think it's amazing and awesome. And I learn a lot every time I hear you speak, and you know, I've heard you s speak or do presentations um at different different venues or different events, and every time, you know, it kind of broadens my perspective on the world and just even like you know, the message of our hands are medicine and you know, just makes me very excited and and wanting to learn more and the unique sign language that you have, hopefully Nike Sign Language. Um I just it's it's something that people you know like that are speak that can hear are you know we we take that for granted. Um and so I'm really interested in like what are your journeys? Maybe I'll start with Marcia.

SPEAKER_11 20:37

Um Monty, before you start, um I don't mean to interrupt. Does anyone else like um Serafine, do you hear like a weird clicking?

SPEAKER_04 20:50

Yes, I did hear just a little bit.

SPEAKER_11 20:53

Your mic is something's happening and your voice is lower and everything's clicking back and forth. I don't know if you need to re-plug in your hear your phones, or your ear your um headphones?

SPEAKER_08 21:09

Monty?

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Okay, how's that?

SPEAKER_08 21:12

I think it sounds better. I think it's okay now.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Okay. I I wasn't.

SPEAKER_07 21:20

So it means we'll have to go back and say that question again, maybe?

SPEAKER_11 21:24

Uh oh, the start of his of Monty's question, you mean?

SPEAKER_04 21:29

Yes, because uh it had the tech. Um you were just um mentioning how you have seen um us give our presentations in various settings and how you've learned something every time. Um so just if you could kind of maybe say that again, Manti.

SPEAKER_06 21:54

Okay, yeah, I'm just trying to get my thoughts back in.

SPEAKER_11 22:00

We were just really excited to have you on, and Monty was saying that that I'm trying to help you reiterate a little, Monty. Um that you got to see Dominique and Marcia at some presentations, and you were just really excited to learn more, and I um you were kind of talking about uh that a little bit, and I was wanting to hear what you had to say as well.

SPEAKER_06 22:25

Uh yeah, so every time I've seen you present, you know, it's been uh uh given me a new perspective on communication and how us as uh hearing people I guess um you know, where we kind of take that for granted and also how you present on Wanida Sign Language and what how unique that is even compared to ASL and other and other forms of sign language. Um it just helps me gives me a perspective on you know how how smart our people were and how we were able to have our own ways of living, our own ways of being, our own ways of communication. Um and so I wanted to I guess start with Marsha on um how she or how how did you learn, how did you um come across OSL, One Ida Sign Language, and um your experience. Um I guess even like sharing your story of growing up um because I've heard you talk about that before and I think it's really interesting really interesting to share.

SPEAKER_07 24:22

Yeah, so I was born and raised um in the Oneida community and um my school at the time, um, I was supposed to go to a school for the deaf, but there was none available in Oneida. And the closest one was in London. Um, but it was for very young children. It was about four years old, I think, when people were going there. And my parents thought, like, oh, I'm gonna bring my child all the way here, um, this young to learn sign language. And um, you know, a lot of the people there, they were talking about signs and things that um you know, they were talking about farmers and they were talking it was out in the country and um at that time it was in 1963, and um we had decided to go to a place close to Toronto that um had a school set up there, and um seeing the sign languages that were being used and trying to avoid using sign language um within the school and how they were trying to get children to speak, you know, learn to speak by lip reading or having speech therapy. Um they would put us up close to a mirror and mouse different letters or sounds, like the word can you'd have to try to copy it. And um, you know, seeing that and thinking, why do we have to be speaking? Why can we not just use sign language? Why can't we communicate in the way that we know how to communicate? Um and finger spelling, that was a big thing at that time too. Everything was finger spelled, so you would have to physically spell out every single word that you were communicating, which is really overwhelming, especially for a kid to try to understand. Later in the years, we started using signed exact English. Um, so that was to help learn English grammar and things like that. And so it's a it's a modified way of signing that you add in all of these um grammatical functions into your signs, which is also really hard to understand. Um, and I did that for about a year. And then afterwards I learned American Sign Language, and that's what I used for a long time. However, I did feel like a big part of my own identity was missing because when I would go back home to Oneida, I would see, you know, all of these events happening. I would miss out on them because I was at school and I didn't have access to understanding what it was, and it was really difficult. And I thought, like, you know, I have to keep learning ASL, like this is what's been working. But um, anytime I would go home for events, if there was a workshop or if there was something happening, I'd always be very interested in it. However, I didn't have access to what was actually being said because I didn't have interpreters there. At that time, chief in counsel, um, I had approached them about providing interpreters for me to be involved in the community, and I was denied again and again. But I was very stubborn and I kept advocating for myself because I knew that communication was a right that I had and um that I should be able to access this. And so finally it paid off. They hired an interpreter to come to a workshop that I wanted to attend. Um, however, they were only speaking Oneida at the workshop, and the interpreter that came did not understand it, of course. And so they were not able to interpret for me. And it kind of made me realize um, you know, in our community we have elders. Um there's one elder named Olive that um that I had uh gone up to and said, you know, we have an interpreter here, but they're not able to understand when we speak Oneida. Are we not able to do this in English? And um Olive looked at me and said, No, you're you are Oneida. You are a part of our nation, and um, you know, it's something that that you should have access to. The the interpreters don't understand what is going on. And um she kind of helped me come to the idea of, you know, maybe we should try to develop the sign language that is ours for our own community. Um, and immediately when she mentioned that, I felt such an inspiration, you know, realizing that my community, my rights are being acknowledged, my um connection to the community is being validated. And it was really, really empowering. And I just thought, you know, if you're not gonna let me use this, or if you're not gonna allow me access to this, then we're gonna create access in a different way. Um, because it's not just me, there are other deaf people that are in our community too. And thankfully, we have made a lot of changes and we have incorporated a lot too. But it's been a very big learning journey that we've we've gone through learning how to um look at the English or the ASL signs that we have, but then come up with an appropriate cultural representation of that in ONIDA sign language. Um, because we're not, we don't want to look at an English translation of what our words mean. We have to look at what they actually mean in a visual context that we could explain. And so um trying to fully disconnect from English and ASL and really focus on our own culture and what communication looks like for our people historically has been really amazing and it's really flourished. And we've gotten so far with this. Um and it's been really nice to see how we've been able to decolonize ourselves, even decolonize our own culture and have our children learn, learn with us. Um because you look back in history, it's hard to find a lot of this kind of thing. And so being able to do this together and have access to that and experiencing oppression, you know, within other communities. Um it's very, very difficult. And so being able to reclaim that and and really advocate for it within our own community and have it grow to the extent that it has has been really, really amazing. Um, and also the opportunity not to not only to share it with our community, but with other communities of traveling, doing these presentations, like you've mentioned, you've seen and seeing the support that people have for our language and understanding, you know, where we started from, where we're being forced to learn to speak or learn to write English or learn to do all this kind of stuff, and realizing that no, when we when we disconnect from that, we realize that our hands actually are language. Our hands give us the ability to communicate. And when people can see it from that perspective rather than seeing it as a disability or something else, um, and they can see what the benefit of learning sign languages are and the importance behind it, is really, really amazing.

SPEAKER_11 31:48

Wow, I'm just like already blown away. That was really powerful and like I like incredible hearing I wasn't too sure myself on like how OSL came to be. So hearing how like how you made that happen and with the help of um and support of others within your community, um like is so inspirational. Um I uh I don't I don't wanna tell Monty if you have anything to add before we we ask Dominique, but um I so we'd like to ask Dominique the the same question um a little bit about your journey and um yeah how like whether you want to start in childhood or as a as a young adult wherever you feel is appropriate um um on your journey Yes, I'll try to uh be brief.

SPEAKER_04 32:54

Um I just would like to clarify one thing. Um individuals will admit they didn't really know or didn't understand, but some um, you know, like to try to um reflect a little deeper and try to figure out the reason why and like you know research the history and it really is a historical impact and it's not easy, you know, to break through and bring this to fruition, right? But within the community and the disabled, right? Just because with the historical uh context with you know the council, with the government, you know, with colonial processes, they were just very strict, like you can't do this, you you know, have to, you know, go to school to get certain education, but then you can't go to post-secondary, right? So there was a lot of barriers and historically, and no, and specifically with individuals who are deaf and being allowed to sign, not being provided interpreters, not having closed captioning, you know, just a lot of accessibility barriers, and they had really no access to really anything in that sense of accessibility, and so we are still limited on the knowledge we acquire, we don't have a full understanding of everything historically. There are still pieces missing, right? And so sometimes you storytelling or um you know, through certain things that are passed on, we are not given the opportunity to learn every single piece, right? We have to growing up had to, you know, learn and struggle and kind of suffer to acquire any historical information and you know suffer with self-confidence, right? You know, there was it was a a struggle and to recognize that there are advocates, um, and people who were saying this isn't right, you know, and standing up and advocating for you know what is right and to get laws changed and to make that progress. So when I was a child with my family and with extended family with my cousins and my aunts, you know, and after, you know, once I was born, my first language was sign language. And growing up, I felt like, you know what, I do like have accessibility, right? I do know my family. So I felt, you know, in the sense of the word normal in my childhood growing up, and you know, everything was as per usual as you could expected, you know, go to school, you know, when I went, it was everything I expected in the sense of a classroom, you know, my peers. And just as you know, time went along, I was, you know, being encouraged, you know, to have a little more independence. And so I used to be very, very like close with my cousins and be with them all the time. And so what we really enjoyed and had fun was just you know, kind of horse playing around, kind of like um, you know, doing little skits or you know, drama pieces, right? And so when we'd get together as a family, we would always create stories, and you know, we would just interact, you know, making up the these stories. And so um I was encouraged, you know, like what about your friends? And I was saying, yeah, like when I go to school and I'm hanging out with my friends, you know, I will tell them, you know, I'll sign to them, tell them the stories, and so then, you know, if I go over to their house or go to a birthday party or you know, such social event, you know, with their parents, right? Like I'm busy as a child just you know, playing around, right, not really paying attention to you know, the parents per se, but you know, with my friends' parents or other adults, I didn't even realize, but I was quite shocked that in their households they had no signing in their household, you know, and they my friends they signed themselves, but when they went back home, they were forced to be more oral and speak, right? And at that point, I realized that they had that disconnect in their home and they didn't have that full relationship um connection through language, and so you know when um you know I'd be back home, you know, and we knew in our extended family sorry, one moment for the introverter. So we knew, like, you know, those kids who never wanted to go back home, it was because they didn't have the language at home in their homes, the signing, right? And noticed as I was growing up that my friends always wanted to come over to my house. Everybody went to come, and I would all be like, why? And they're like, Oh, you're lucky you have family, your siblings, your cousins. They all understand and they all sign. And you, you know, they were just very um, you know, eager and thirsty for that type of access and language use, and I didn't realize that right away, right? That they had homes and families that did not have signing within their homes, or their adults within their family who chose that said, I'm not going to sign, right? So through my childhood growing up, I often get people who tell me, Oh, you're so lucky, you come from a deaf family, you have your language, you have accessibility from a very early age. So many people telling me, You are so lucky, you are so lucky, and you know, realizing that you know, from their perspective, they didn't have that same exposure to language due to, you know, just their family all being hearing or you know, their limits um to accessibility as they grew up. And you know, I had a really good friend who I, you know, go visit often, they would come over to my house often because her mom would visit the school often, and I saw her mom that she signed pretty well, and she would sign to everybody and her daughter. So when I visit, the grandmother signed at my friend's house, and then her auntie was signing as well. So I was like, oh wow, you know, this is the one classmate who has multiple adults in their home that can sign fluently and have that language to communicate. When I go, you know, visit other friends, they you know wouldn't have that same um language use within their home. And some lived quite far away from the school, and so sometimes when I'd go visit them, I'd be like, oh, you know, this is what you quote unquote like is a normal family, right? And then you know, you get to see other friends, their dynamics in in the household, and you kind of start to realize like, oh, that's not so great, and to kind of see in the complete opposites, you know, of households, right? So um you know, when we were graduating high school and you know, getting ready to be out in the real world, um, I seen, you know, what I experienced and seeing going through um the deaf school and the high school, and just in the sense of the word of communication, I understood what that meant to be able to communicate within that setting. And then when I, you know, go out um to, you know, like a work setting or to an appointment, I didn't even realize um the fluctuation of type of communication, right? I would often get, you know, like, oh, you're deaf, right? And so I just it was almost felt like um it was a little bit insulting, but it was just like um it wasn't the first time like they've come across a deaf individual, right? So and just recognizing that with communication, right, that you do need both parties need language to communicate, right? And so it didn't even come across to me that other people didn't view using sign language as a language, right? So you try to explain, you know, whatever your utterance is very clearly, and sometimes the response I get from certain individuals like just didn't make sense with what I asked, right? So just in communicating with um various people, you know, sometimes people say, oh, like they're you know very limited in their ability to communicate, right? But re in actuality they had, you know, they were very smart and they were able to explain, you know, a high level um, you know, of a certain topic, right? So to hearing individuals who don't sign or don't understand the language, how it is, you know, structured and the grammar, um, they have that lens on it, you know, and so um when I take in this into it as a leadership role and you know, to kind of take on this role and explain, um, you know, sometimes it's like normal for the introvert about language deprivation deprivation for other deaf individuals who don't have as much of the language exposure, right? They label them with language deprivation, but then um when they grow up um with the language, right, there is proof that there is that um understanding that they do have language. So just try to understand what the actual word of language and what that is definition of the meaning is for each individual. And so sometimes, you know, somebody will say, Oh, I notice you are very strong in your ASL skills, and I'll tell them yes, you know, because I have I come from a deaf family, and they're like, Oh, that explains it. And they're like, Did you go to the deaf school? And I'll respond with yes, I did. And uh they'll ask me what age did I go to school, and they and I would say kindergarten, and they said, Oh, you went to school early, right? And so for me, I am very bilingual. I'm very strong in English as well as ASL. I have strong roots in both languages. Whereas a later language acquisition deaf individual maybe picking up language at 15 years old at high school age at a it's almost you know a little too late at that point, so they're not as strong. Whereas for me, it was right, you know, from from birth and right, you know, at the start of my childhood. And so sometimes, you know, people will ask, you know, what are the resources or what's the best way to go about it? And for me, it's just like, well, it's because my family has given the exposure of language because they signed in the home, right? So how am I picking up on certain contexts or certain concepts, you know, because I'm watching my family discuss it, right? At various, you know, family functions, whether we're having dinner or if we're out at events, sometimes I'm just watching, you know, everyone else discuss it, right? But some people think I'm book smart, I've learned it all myself reading or online or watching videos, you know, that that's how I've come to acquire this knowledge. But my answer is no, it's through my family's conversations and exposure to language. You know, if that was not a factor, I would definitely be an individual who is language maybe delayed or maybe um out on certain information that is discussed in you know everyday concepts or scenarios. And so the interpreter. So I was with, you know, somebody who um, you know, we were well, we were discussing OSL as they were discussing their Nada language, right, and trying to learn, right? So we try instead of um I suggested that they join, you know, other hearing people who know how to pronunciate, you know, the language properly. And so we just benefit each other by giving um, you know, our knowledge to each other and supporting each other. And so I just like to try to, you know, just look at in theory, right, before um, you know, contact, right, how what would happen, right? If you came across somebody you can communicate with, there's certain things that would happen or would go wrong, right, or you'd miss on the information, right? And so you would have like missing pieces of a puzzle, right? So if you um, you know, look at it through that lens and you it's quite a struggle because you're always missing quite a few of the pieces of the puzzle, right? And so one second. Sorry, I think um just was asking, you know, what was like before I was born, right? And they were they were saying like there was no interpreters and there's no closed collapse, right? And so, you know, I feel like if there was never any progression or change, right, then that wouldn't have been like passed down to me, right? So I feel like that is a sense of you know, some type of healing. And without healing, you it's impossible to grow, right? So for us to heal, it helps us to, you know, feel better, to become more stable. And you know, if there's you know, constant problems or constant like toxic scenarios that you know won't contribute, you know, to growth or progression, and that is not my goal.

SPEAKER_07 48:06

If I can add to that, Marcia's saying, um I think what Dominique is talking about kind of made me think that's exactly our ways as Indigenous people. Um, I know on my dad's side of the family, um, um, and my great-grandfather and great-great-grandfather, you know, that whole line are very fluent Oneidas language speakers. Um, and that has been passed down through the family. Um, for those of us that can hear, obviously, that is passed down through the generations all the way until my dad. But when I was born, of course, he has this daughter who is deaf. Um, there was a shift there that had to happen that um, you know, they they acknowledged the the way that I communicate with my movement, with being able to show them things. There were things that I was able to get across just intuitively that we learned together. And my mother had really, really wonderful English. She was very well versed in that. Um, and you know, would always get on my father about that because he did not have great English. And so when it came time for me to start learning English and written English, um, I definitely kind of had the same perspective that my father had about it, where it was like, no, we don't, we, we don't really care about this as much because we have our language. I thought I have my sign language, I have, I have my hands, I have my my body that I can use to communicate. That's not something that we've ever done historically, is writing things down or using the English language to communicate. So why is it something that I have to focus on now? My body, my hands, that's what helps me to heal from all of the trauma that I had from having to learn how to speak, how to use English. This is my healing, being able to use my language and being able to use my eyes to take in the world the way that I do and learn about different things. You know, my dad worked as an iron worker and was a really big tough man that um was a very hard worker. And, you know, being able to see that, I I really embraced it in who I am as well because I was able to see that I had access to that visual nature and it caused me to be a really strong and tough woman. And you know, people often think like, oh, I'm such a tiny little, tiny little lady, but no, I've got this personality that is big and strong just like my dad was because I took it in that way. And it's something that I learned through my own experience. And um, you know, we had our own communication that gave me more of those kinds of skills. You know, if my dad, he was very proud of that. He was very proud to point out that, oh yeah, that's my daughter Marcia over there. That's the one that's doing all this all this stuff. And it's because I took it in that I I was still able to access it even with the language difference and the fact that I wasn't a fluent Onaga speaker. Um, but it's because the meaning of it, the the understanding is still there without the English language being necessary for it or American Sign Language. I'm still able to be involved, I'm still able to see all of these things, but I can still take things in and share them with people in different ways and carry on our culture and our stories. Um it doesn't have to be through English or through the school system or through the ways that we've been told it has to happen. Um, and it's something that I've always I've always thought, oh my goodness, English. Like you're you're so keen on learning this language, but we have it already. We have our own language already. I always try to avoid it. Um you know, and people say like, oh, like but speaking is a privilege, it's something that's really great. But where did that come from? It's because the churches told us that. That's what we were told when they took our families. And so by by believing that, it's just continuing on that whole process that they were doing for you you don't have to um convince me. I already know who I am, my language, and how it helps me and how it uh enables me to live my culture. I don't need what everybody else is telling me that I need for that. Um, but hearing people often don't understand, but they do see the strength that comes through me, you know, the like, oh, that's Marcia, that's the one who's always gonna speak up about something. But you have to understand where that comes from. It's because I can feel it all. It's been communicated to me. That's my truth, that's my experience, that's who I am. And it's because I don't have to hear it, I can see it. I don't have to hear it through the English language. It's in me already. And you know, I think we overthink this kind of stuff a lot and we overanalyze it, and it's causing uh like a reduced number of people who are able to really understand and learn our culture, but that's why we have to advocate so much for it and advocate for our languages and advocate for our traditions. Um, I think I am very privileged because um creator gave me this gift of being deaf, being the person that can take all this in and I can show others that it is possible and that I am a very competent person and I don't need to rely on what people think you have to rely on to be able to be successful in that. Um I have my own people, my own culture, my own ways of life that I inherently already know. I don't need to be told how that happens, I don't need to convince other people of that. I'm here to share that with youth so that as they grow up, they can understand and know that too. And that's why I'm so passionate about doing presentations as well.

SPEAKER_04 54:02

And Domini Sain, just to add um comment to that, I just want to kind of go backtrack a little bit and say, I would like to, you know, try my best and use all my capabilities to um you know do the appropriate, you know, approach, right, and what's best, right? It we don't always have to rely on documentation and books, but we can utilize, you know, storytelling um to see through action or through workshops or you know, networking and meeting uh, you know, other individuals and just communicating with other people in general. And so I feel like when you take those experiences and I reflect on my mom and her um OSL signs and you know, thinking about, you know, working with our community, it's a very slow process. It's not something that is, you know, quickly in a in process. You know, sometimes when we go through certain signs or certain meanings, and then we come to that final decision of the outcome and what it is in sign language, it's so clear to our community, and everybody's like, oh, it's so clear, I totally get it. And it just, you know, influences that it's just a clear communication and everybody's with the same understanding. And so when you have that clear understanding, that structure, um, in terms of researching like the structure of the language, that is really kind of held on like the last part of the process, right? At first, you know, you're gonna be confused, or you're not gonna fully have clear understanding, right? And that personal interaction with individuals is very important as well. And so we take feedback, we take workshops, and really just all of that has had nothing but positive impact and connection, and it's really opened our eyes and opened our brains and to things that we might not have noticed before, may have missed. And so we have noticed the impact is great, and so when we do going through the process, it's just it feels right, and there's no other way to explain it. When it connects and feels right, we have witnessed that like with internally as well as with other individuals in our community, and sometimes when I'm communicating with other people in ASL, I'll use ASL for, you know, general conversation, you know, in certain settings to socialize. But then when I switch over to discussing certain issues, you know, wanting to recognize rights or go into historical context, you know, I will switch over and use OSL or NIDA Sign Language, you know, and so I just want to be clear that OSL is, you know, that's where I represent, say our representation of our hands, our medicine. We we have that connection. And for hearing people, it's oral spoken language, but for us, it's very similar. We are discussing languages, right? So my, you know, my for First Nations language, right? That's the connection, that's a part of our identity, that is natural, right? And so just all of these reasons and that connection. And so that's what's led to, you know, that's our right, right? So I've gone to workshops, I've gone to conferences, I've met, you know, various individuals who research language, and so just you know, having all of these um, you know, discussions or feelings and just becomes clear, right? So when you I went to um a conference, um, I can't remember what um they were saying it was in Vancouver, BC. I can't remember exactly, but it was indigenous language, um, like global international indigenous language. And so they were saying in your journey in revitalizing your indigenous language, right? Like at the you want to protect it and not rely on English, right? So if you have like somebody did suggest why don't you utilize American Sign Language while you're learning the spoken and revitalizing spoken indigenous languages, and so certain hearing people are, you know, kind of taken to that, but they have not done enough research on American Sign Language or Sign Language in general and the language and the context, they really have not researched any of that at all. They just use it, utilizing American Sign Language at the basic level as using this sign to represent this spoken word in an in their indigenous language, and so you know, I have experience. I've used the language my whole life, I've used it at the deaf school and communicating with other people, um, you know, and it's a very um, you know, full language, and so there's like historical and there's meanings behind everything in itself as a language. And so just when you're, you know, setting out a curriculum for American Sign Language, right, you need to know the structure and you need to have certain understandings of the language. So when hearing people are using that to support revitalizing indigenous language, they have no curriculum they're following. They're just looking up videos, they're following videos. And so with ASL, you have to do the research on who uh the historical, um, you know, where the language comes from, where was it derived from, right? It is actually derived from other languages, right? So um I think there was a term where they they used like tree language, right? Where you come together and have uh, you know, a certain discussion and to making certain decisions, and who are those individuals that were involved historically? They are not indigenous people, right? So but now hearing indigenous people are utilizing basic ASL to help revitalize spoken indigenous language, but I asked them where is like the foundation, where is um you know the historical context, the family traditions, right? ASL is not a part of your family um traditional teachings, right? And so you're allowing it to come into contact with your family traditions and your culture, right? But it there is no um, you know, natural ASL within it, right? And so I do want to support like ASL does not support like mother nature or um you know certain aspects of our culture. And so they're saying it's utilized to like, you know, to build off of, right? And when you're utili when you're using ASL and an interpreter, right, they are actually mediating between two languages. They have like there's a relationship built between ASL and English, right? So when you are looking at our languages, you don't want English involved, which is fine, it's a great concept, right? But then they're willing to have American Sign Language affiliated with revitalization, but that will inherently impact and influence our language. And how is that not viewed in a negative light? So it's confusing for me, and so with OSL and our progress and our process, you know, we are heavily researching um, you know, the understanding and the meanings behind it. I am Oneida, my mother is Oneida. We learn our family, you know, traditions, what is passed down, you know, the structure of the community, and so we understand, you know, like how um certain things, you know, are in our cultural lens, right? And so um we have firsthand lived experience to we understand how things you know function within our community, how the roles are um you know set up, right? So we have that firsthand experience and knowledge and understanding. We are connected to our community, we do interact and have those conversations with our community. We are not borrowing from other people's experiences or from other people's stories, right? That's not um our point, right? We're relying on my own experiences and my my um knowledge and my mother's experiences and her story, right? And so with the with our creation story, you know, and what it teaches us, and I've you know, I'm always um reanalyzing our creation story, uh, you know, and the creation story it never states that um you know there should be any like negativity or shame or you look down. There's no criticism, there's nothing mentioned in there. It doesn't say that you know there's limitations, right? It doesn't have any of that negative um lens in it at all. So we, you know, feel empowered, right? We are able to interact in that lens. And so with American Sign Language, it has its own history and it has its own influences, you know, from the medical perspective, right? And how at the beginning is very limited. Um, and you almost they almost had to go off in a corner and hide when they were using American sign language, like almost like the concept of like going into a cave, right? Because it was banned and was not allowed to be used and it was looked down upon. So it has its own struggles. Um, it you know, if I want, do I want to bring that historical context into my work or you know, revitalizing our languages? No, I don't want to have that impact on our work, and so we are relying on um with our own being, our own identity, our own community. And so communication um requires another individual and requires that interaction to have successful communication. And so for me, I prioritize the creation story and that historical. Um, teaching of you know, your mothers, your grandmothers, your great-grandmothers, and having that traditions and stories carried forward, and so that is great, you know, strength and power to rely on and to um deep dig within yourself because it is passed on to you in in comparison to utilizing another language that has its own history and it's um I don't know how healing while utilizing that um as a tool, you know, it would not help. But my goal is to heal in this process and to um be empowered, right? Because we have historically been told no, we cannot share our stories, no, we cannot do this, um, you know, parts of our culture, right? So a lot of people just aren't realizing it, right? They think it's a positive thing to do. And with Oneida Sign Language, we are actually not allowing any of those other tools and various languages to impact our process and our um language, and so we are in this moment of history where we have professional interpreters, we have close captioning, and so now you know I have opportunity to be able to stand up, you know, and to have you know um access and be able to state a comment, right? So if you know there's other workshops or other videos or things in regards to the Indian Act, you know, I'm able to have access to those things due to closed captioning or interpreters, right? And I'm able to um see what people are speaking up about and hear all the comments and to know that I have those same rights. And you know, before colonalization, that we were here first, right? And so I'm always emphasizing, you know, that it's the focus is for us and we have our rights, you know. So, and I have the right for communications, you know, I don't have to follow the medical um lens perspective. You cannot tell me how I should communicate, you know. I am the one that is in control of that process, and how I move forward is working on OSL and progressing it from here on into the future.

SPEAKER_11 1:08:42

Thank you so much for oh, I'll just go a little closer. Um yeah, thank you for some thank you so much for all of that. Um, I should have taken some notes. Remember, I had a couple of things I wanted to ask you and clarify on, and I just was taking in every moment. Um but I really appreciate um all of the reframing that you did around the lens and um explaining the process and um the length of time it took and sharing other experiences, because like you said, you know, as a as a hearing person, I in my head I'm thinking, you know, why wouldn't all families, you know, want to try and communicate through the same language as their child? Um so I really appreciate all of the insights um as I learn because I I have always had a a yearning to actually learn a a language like ASL. Um and then you talk about OSL and I'm like, oh I know I'm not O NIDA, but like I would definitely um be way more interested um in learning OSL at this point um after you know, definitely do not have the same experiences, but there are a lot of um there's step or step, I don't want to say a lot, but there's several commonalities between um when you talk about um trying to learn um like when you spoke on um sometimes you don't have enough information to truly understand um what's being spoken about yet if you are not well versed in that area. And I know you know it's a drop in the bucket of of being able to maybe resonate with that, but when you learn Nishinaabe Moen through um immersion, sometimes they don't have all the words, and so you can associate what's being told to you with a different, you know, uh a different word altogether. Um so I should have I should have I wanted to be present, but I should have written some of my questions down as they were coming up. Um I'll I'll send it over to Monty in case he has anything that uh you might like to add or ask.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:09

Yeah, no, I think it's all everything that you shared was that both of you shared was just really it's really important and um really good to hear and yeah, just a lot to reflect on. Same thing, just uh so much uh important knowledge to share. And I'll have to uh listen to this again later on to really absorb everything, but yeah, just talking about like using ASL, like I I I know uh I'm familiar with, you know, people using ASL to help revitalize our indigenous languages. Um and just hearing that like from you about you know that perspective of ASL and how that is similar to English and how that can bring um a different world view into an an indigenous language that isn't ours, I guess. Um yeah, I I was I'm curious if you could share some examples of um some of the differences between OSL and ASL. Uh just to kind of give people uh and talk about that.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:37

I don't know if you can define define OSL um a little bit, but you know trying to just I guess kind of talk about you know the differences and how that uh reflects our our world view just before um we can show those various examples for myself in my experience growing up the ASL grammar and the structure it's based on levels of skill and knowledge, so it has a set curriculum already, and it does have an emphasis to focus on gender, and whereas indigenous culture we don't focus on gender, right? We're very neutral and we don't tie it into that gender norm, and ASL does have the language structured with being gender specific. So when you see certain ASL signs, you'll you'll gain the understanding of what I'm talking about. So for just in the quick review, so anything in the forehead area of the head is for male. So father, uncle, male, cousin is at the forehead. That's the you know, for the man. Again, it's always repeatedly in that forehead to the side of your top part of your head. So that's mother and grandmother, right? So that's how the language was um set up, and the purpose of it is tied to the genders. And so I understand ASL and its language and um the roots. Um I focused on the root word and how you know it visually, what it visually, how it visually looks and what it represents, right? So sometimes there's certain ways where I want to see like how people how somebody responds, right? And so I realize that within our OSL, right? It's um we're not rooting our signs into a specific area, like we have more flexibility. Whereas ASL, you have certain spaces you utilize with certain signs because it has its own meaning and intention, but ours is more flexible, more movement. There's no um signs that are tied to certain spaces or in the in around you or on your body. And so it really does depend on like, you know, just um traditionally, right, and how it's being passed on, right? And what's the intent, right? Sometimes there's a lot of traditions or knowledge that is action-based, right? And so it's like if I'm learning or hearing to one of our stories, and I'm trying to, you know, picture what would you do, what activity or how would you, you know, see that, right? And so in our culture, I notice it's a lot, there's a lot of action possible, right? So in our language, there's nothing that was says like the story that says the word say, right? It's just a story that they tell, right? And so whereas in with ASL, they do have those markers, like even within a story, right? So I just notice and see the differences between um the languages. So the structure approach, you know, whether it's a deaf individual or hearing person, right? So sometimes, like in your intro, it'd be like, oh, hi, my name is, and you know, you would continue to sign your introduction, right? Sometimes through that interaction, you're like trying to understand, is this signer deaf person, or is this person a child of a deaf adult, right? You're trying to pick up on their accent as they're signing, right? And so, you know, within our language, it's very sound-based, right? And so, um, just you know, when I'm introducing myself, that's how I came with the choice of how you express that in OSL because it's coming from within, right? So it's coming out of me, and within conversations and how it sounds and how they use that um their tongue when they speak certain things, right? So I usually can tell, oh, that's a hearing person, right? Whereas if I see somebody do what I just signed as an example, to me, I can tell, oh, that person is deaf. So there's just different markers and different um cues that kind of help and show and identify the origin of the speaker. And now go ahead, Marsha.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:21

So just show the signs and OSL now.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:31

Marsha's doing OSL. The reason um that OSL has that sign have is based on our basket, you know, when they make a basket and the handles on it, right? So if you're going to harvest corn, you know, and you're taking it out from that basket from behind you, and so it's based off of those straps that are attached to that basket. And so that's why the sign is in that location and with that motion. Ceremony. So when I sign the ASL version for ceremony, you know, usually your context with that is like it's a celebration, right? It's like, you know, you have um kind of like that poll of like, you know, the it's uh like a flag of celebration, right? So really OSL is based on the cultural meaning.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:59

Yeah, so in our community, our ceremonies always include a fire that is at the center of everything. So we show the fire and then the people surrounding that. And then we've got this sign here that shows what we are telling to the fire, and that what we're telling to the fire goes up to creator in the smoke. So that's why that is our sign for ceremony.

SPEAKER_11 1:20:28

I mean I'm like, um it's just mind-blowing for me because um and I'm I'm even getting emotional. Um because even in English, when you're talking like if I'm talking to a non-Indigenous person about ceremony, they hear something totally different than if I'm talking about, oh, I'm like, I'm going to ceremony. They like I have to explain, oh, like, no, I'm not going to a ceremony where there's this, this, I'm like, I'm going to ceremony. Or, you know, even when we say the language is like, if I said, Oh, you know, learning the language to a non-Indigenous person, they're like, well, what language? And for us, you know, it's like, oh, it's the language, it's Nishnabimwin. We we know what we're talking about, just little small, subtle cues. So I really see that when you're explaining, okay, like I'm really starting to understand deeper. Um, you know, like it's the actual action of, you know, you're talking about the the celebration and the poll and how um like that's not relevant necessarily, like that's total the context isn't the same, I I would I would assume, right? Um, so again, I I feel a lot. I'm a I'm a I feel very deeply. So as you're explaining this, I'm like, just excuse me, because I'm getting emotional. Because I can just really feel it. And like you said, um your language is so like you said fluid and flexible. And I and again, that just I know Onaida culture is very, very different than an Nishnape culture, but um, like we consider the language to be alive, like it is it is this mobile, ever-moving thing. So again, I'm I'm resonating a lot with what you're saying or what you're signing, um because like even even though it's it's it's we're speaking our language, I can I can really um I I can't understand, but I can I can resonate with with some of those um parallels um through revitalization. Um there's something else I wanted to mention, but it'll come back to me um as we as we speak. But yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:46

Uh wonderful, thank you so much. The fourth sign I'll show now, Marsha's saying green.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:05

So with the OSL, it's the focus on the cultural meaning on when you grow up and where you're seeing the color and you see it so often, right? Like, for example, green, blue, yellow, orange, black, gray. You know, I usually understand the OSL, right? Like in ASL is structured based on the first letter of those colors, right? So for like, you know, for B, right? That's the the handshape for the letter B. But um, you know, through movement, like you can become a classifier, right? So that's the classifier using the handshape of the B, but it's moving, that makes it a classifier in ASL. And so same with when you use the letter G, that's the handshape for the letter G in ASL. And when you're talking about the color, when you move it, that's how you know they're talking about the color in ASL.

SPEAKER_10 1:24:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:24

And so what that's the letter Y, just the letter in ASL. But again, as you move it, it becomes the color. So that's how you sign yellow, right? And so I, you know, have learned that, you know, with ASL, but at the same time, it doesn't feel like it's alive. I'm just like, oh, okay, that's the sign, I have to use it, so I use it, right? But when we are looking at our culture and or not a sign language, um we must sign with connection. We focus on the root word, the structure. So for example, my cousin one second. My cousin, you know, and they were saying, you know, that color, you know, we see it in nature, right? The sky, right? So that's why we say blue, right? If it's dark, you know, we'll say it's you know, black, right? The grass, it's green and um brown, you know. So in that discussion and communication of that, that's where it became so visual and was being able to connect it to nature and then be just became very clear in the understanding. And so for our future um, you know, generations, you know, children, we would like to teach them OSL and our signs for color in OSL and focus on our teachings in relation to the colors. And I feel like children totally understand, you know, they'll be able to understand that connection with nature and be um better approach rather than how you are taught it in the English language, you know, and so we are signing, you know, we can notice when there's that disconnect when the the signs are not alive, right? So when it's not rooted in that connection, we can tell and we can feel it. So I'll give you another example. So when you guys are listening, and there's you know, you're listening to sound for hearing people, sometimes you don't like certain sounds that are complex, or you know, sometimes you know, there's certain sound that you don't like, you'll kind of turn it down or turn it off, like it bothers you, it's very distracting, gets very annoying, and you're like, get rid of it, turn that off, right? You know, that feeling. So, you know, for if there's you know something that's blinking constantly, you know, we want to turn that off, right? So, and then if you can't, you start to get those feelings of like, oh, that's annoying. I just want that to stop, I want it to turn off, right? It's intrusive, right? But it's kind of just ongoing. So another person might not care and they don't even notice it, right? And they don't even realize that sound is intrusive and they don't see how it affects you. They don't see how it's becoming annoying and those feelings inside of you are festering. And then, you know, sometimes you have to. You know, say, you know, directly, like, can that be turned off? Right. But that person has no realization. They don't even realize it. They don't even pick up on any of the cues. Right. So that, you know, you kind of have to explain. But then that person just kind of doesn't even notice it, right? They it just goes right over their head. That's kind of how it feels like for us, you know, with signing, right? So, you know, just how you guys don't like the certain noises, that distraction, it it, you know, that disconnect is intrusive. That's, you know, it's very similar to how I explain how we um can feel, right? So when you guys don't like a sound that is ongoing, you start to feel that discontent, that intrusiveness, right? So if we see, you know, people playing with signs and making up signs, and they don't have that full understanding of the historical context, and they just look at it as it's like we're just playing with it, we're just throwing it out there. That's the same kind of feelings that start started up within us and you know becomes annoying and intrusive, and um you get that feeling stirring up of that you don't like it.

SPEAKER_11 1:29:23

Sorry, to so to clarify, um, the intrusiveness is is more when people are trying to um like throw up throw or make up signs on the spot that are really um like that I guess like without the context or without like I guess like the ignorance of of of what of the history of learning it. Is that kind of correct? Yeah correct, yes. Okay. I'm someone who needs a lot of clarification all the time. I think remember we spoke about that the last time I was here, so sometimes I have to hear something two or three times to understand.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:06

No problem at all. Anytime you anytime you have a question, please go ahead and ask.

SPEAKER_11 1:30:18

Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:20

Oh what are some like uh is there anything that people are surprised about OSL or even other deaf people in the deaf community? Are they surprised what are kind of some common things? Is there like uh yeah, that they're surprised that OSL exists or or um I know there's other types of sign language out there, but uh usually get questions or like comments about about uh OSL.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:02

I'll let mom, you know, everyone almost goes to her, so I'll let her answer.

SPEAKER_07 1:31:09

Yeah, well, I think OSL um in spaces when when you're giving thanks um for something. Um, you know, I often will say my comments to people and if I'm in front of an audience or something and everybody's looking at me and I'll I'll look and after I've shown it, I I get really surprised because you can see everybody's like, oh, I'm I'm picking up on what that means. And they can see like the the understanding happen with people once you've explained it to them. Um and then when you compare it side by side, like we just did the ASL and the OSL and how people really respond to the OSL and saying, like, oh, that makes so much more sense. Like it's very clear, especially like when you're picking the berries, for example. Um, that sign for for that, they say it's it's so much more clear um when you're getting cranberries in our culture. Um and then when you're talking about um, yeah, you you can see that understanding happen in people when when I've done my presentations and when you see that moment of clarity that they get. And um it's particularly with indigenous hearing people um watching these presentations, you can see that same feeling that you talked about. You know, you get chills a lot of the time because you explain how ASL is not our way and it's very different from the way that we are trying to advocate for, and it's it's it's our our language is not as intrusive as you mentioned, and it can be really inspiring to a lot of hearing indigenous people because they're able to see a different perspective of, you know, when we find mother like this, um I'll do the sign and people will ask, what's that? And I say, Oh my goodness, and I'll explain that. You know, ASL, as Dominique mentioned, mother is signed on the chin because it goes by the area. But in our sign, it's signed on the breast because that is where life is given from. That is where the mother nourishes her child, that is her whole identity is is from the breast, stuff like that. Same thing with um great-grandmother. If you're talking about great-grandmother, it's on the shoulder and then on the breast. However many times you tap it on the shoulder can indicate like a great-grandmother, a great-great-grandmother. Um, but that's because that's what you see our great-grandmothers and our great-great-grandmothers doing. They'll put their hand on your shoulder and check in on how you're doing. Um, you know, they've got their teens or something that they're walking with and they always come up and lean on you. It's it's really indicative of the way that we see things. ASL, you go grandmother from your tin like this, but it doesn't make sense when you think about what it actually looks like when you're living for when you're living in relation with these people. These are humans. It's not things that we can just place in a space and have the meaning come through. We really want to connect our language to what it means and what what we live through. So when we see a tree, for example, and you see the sun or the moon, it would look like this. We we focus very much on what it means in our culture and what it looks like. And then different stars. ASL, the signs are very very cold almost. It's just symbols and and signs that have been created to to try to show it, but it doesn't actually uh show the experience of what it's like to live with these things, to experience being in the sun or in the moon. And you know, we really do try to connect that emotion to our signs because it it's true. It's it's that's our life, that's our uh connection. English and NSL are very different and they often leave those things out um and devalue them. But um, that's part of why I have such a resistance to using ASL or English, because it is so disconnected, it is so um isolating. I do understand that indigenous new people um when they watch my presentation, they get they get that shared understanding because it is our culture, it is our ways. Um, and we have that shared experience of being colonized by English. And so seeing other ways that we can kind of get away from that has been really inspiring for a lot of people. And I think they're very taken by the signs that we show them. And um, you know, some people might think it's it's it's almost like a show or like a song or it's got some kind of poetic um feeling to it. But you know, we it's because we portray these emotions when we're talking about the drums, for example, or you know, people sign drum like this, but that's not what it looks like in my culture. I know exactly what kind of drums we use and how it what the motion looks like to use it, because that is the connection we have. That's the way that we live it. And I think Indigenous hearing people really can relate to that and feel inspired by it a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:25

And I would just like to add that when I go to workshops or when I'm asked to present and when I switch into using OSL, you know, and sometimes when people struggle with like, oh, what does that mean? Right. And so if an in another deaf person sees me using OSL, they're like, oh, I've never seen that, and then I'll explain it, and they're always quite amazed, and they go right into the history with me into detail, and they can really understand the what that would look like and the visual visualization of what that means, you know, in comparison with um, you know, the broader community, deaf community, they are starting to have that understanding and starting to understand with um certain presentations or the indigenous lens, you know, and how you know things are um kind of expressed or used in language is dependent on where you are from, your identity, your culture, your community, right? It's not all, you know, indigenous is all the same, right? And so when someone's having that struggle and trying to understand, you know, sometimes when you bring in as ASL interpreter, most of the time they are non-indigenous, and you notice that there's just that disconnect with that interpretation that is provided. It's almost just like commentary, just kind of providing the word level message. There's not that deeper level, and it's you know, not meaning that like, you know, it's not like the perfect or clear, but sometimes you can just catch within certain contexts of how they're signing. And sometimes I'm like, no, I need a little bit more, right? Like, um, you need that bridge in between um each idea, right? So there's quite a few different layers with interpreting in an indigenous context. So sometimes they can't interpret fluidly the whole way. Sometimes there has to be intrusions where the interpreter was like, oh, well, this is what's being said, but then they give an example, right? And so it's kind of frustrating to have that disconnect um when trying to access our, you know, um knowledge and traditions with that um type of barrier and relying on that um source, right? So you want to have um more fluid connection, right? They should have um somebody, you know, that um, you know, that interaction of understanding, right? Because sometimes an interpreter doesn't have um that conversation with somebody, right? So they they should have somebody with them to be able to provide that support. And so sometimes I'll give them certain, you know, things and certain concepts to think about, and so for just as a simple example, sometimes you know, I'll see interpreters struggle with when people are standing up to introduce what nation they are from, right? And so that's just an impact on that interpreter having to spell out letter by letter those nations, right? Which impacts that accessibility for us because it takes a lot longer, right, for each nation, right? So sometimes we need to maybe take a pause in that approach and discuss within the ASL community certain signs that can be decided on um for different nations to that are practical to you know the nature of where that is, so we can have a faster um, you know, understanding of that when you're using ASL and a faster communication of that. But when you look at it through um, you know, North America and Indigenous communities, they're kind of out uh in that sense. That's why they rely on spelling letter by letter each community instead of an ASL. There's certain signs for certain cities and towns because you know it's a faster, smoother way of communicating, but that doesn't apply because they're so out of the indigenous community. So sometimes um one mote for the interpreter. So sometimes there's that disconnect, you know, with accessing information through the interpreters. So, you know, you each individual who is deaf and they should have that pride and understanding and identity where they come from and be able to decide on the sign that would represent their nation, right? And so we shouldn't have that intrusion when we're accessing information through an interpreter, right? So sometimes when certain people um stand up, right, somebody is, you know, speaking in their language, right? Because I don't speak Oneida in spoken language, right? But when I'm watching somebody speak in Oneida and representing the language, right? And then I'm realizing that the other person that is standing there with them, they're kind of supporting each other, right? So if they're signing in OSL and speaking Onaida language, right, you rely on both, right? Even as a hearing person, like the visual gives you um a different understanding as well as hearing it, so they support each other, and so sometimes um my mother will be called on to give the Thanksgiving address, and so I'm proud when they ask her, you know, to get up there, and that the community is willing to support each other in the both languages because in those settings we don't need to bring in an external interpreter, we are building a community, we have it both in spoken and sign language, and we you have it in the most natural, um, quickest and clear communication approach. So when I step outside of our community within Canadian society, and how Canadians, and I want to be very specific that Canadians would like to support deaf individuals or you know, in whatever context that means, it's most of the time it's not working together or supporting each other. Most of the time that means we'll bring an interpreter and you know, just you know, rely on that interpreter. And I asked them why do we need the interpreter for the whole process? And they're saying, Oh, for you know, communication, right? But for the Canadian kind of context, they you know want to rely on that for the communication, but that's what I've noticed. They always want to bring in in the interpreter in the as a Canadian perspective, but it's like you don't like really want to work alongside with me, right? Because when I see an interpreter, like it's not of anybody from our community, they're saying, no, we want, you know, um, deaf people involved, right? But it's very like in autism, or you know, want you to come to a workshop because it's in relation to disability. So they want deaf people to show up, to be there, to watch me. Like you come sit here and you watch me talk about this and you know, just go on and on, right? So it's showing their knowledge, they're the ones that are sitting there saying, look at me and watch me share my knowledge through an interpreter. So we just show up and just sit there the whole time, and that happens again and again and again. That's the same type of context where you're invited to work with them, and so in that's not my understanding. If my understanding is to work together, you want everybody to share their knowledge, you want to allow everybody to have a part of the stage, you want everybody to see that somebody else contribute. We don't necessarily always need an interpretation, right? So for me, that's the differences I've noticed within Canadian society, and when you're wanting to work together or you're wanting to collaborate on something, whether that is language or science specific, I don't depend on bringing an interpreter. If we're going to work together, it's going to be um, you know, us working together between us, right? Uh, Canadian society, you know, view is oh, we can't understand each other, so I need to bring in an interpreter, right? And so once, you know, that whole interaction is done with the interpreter, they feel like, oh, that it was great success, right? But I asked them at the end of the whole scenario, what did you learn? Did you learn anything? Did you pick up any sign? And they are just kind of stunned and they have no response. So that means because you relied on the interpreter, you kind of everything went over your head. You didn't catch on to anything, you didn't learn anything about the language, and so they don't understand any meaning of the of the language. And so it's kind of like their blind spot because they have the interpreter. They have not even really paid attention to you know any of the signs that are being produced while we're communicating or working together. And so that's the type of scenario that I don't want to contribute to if we're gonna be communicating but don't have that intention behind it or that learned benefit reciprocal um interaction. You know, sometimes when that interaction where you're really communicating and it's really reciprocal, it actually is a reflection of reality and living life as well. I don't have an interpreter with me 24 hours, seven days a week. That is just not possible. So it's just really important to have successful communication, requires both parties to be involved and interacting. When you go to conferences or go to other, you know, certain um situations like that. Like, for example, when you and I've met a Navajo individual and they're like, Oh, you know, what do you do? You know, I usually don't want to rely on the interpreter, and they'll say, You don't want to use the interpreter. I was like, No, I want to have that connection with you, with various people, you know, individuals from different tribes. I want that have that interaction with you because we can understand our intention and our meaning behind those signs because we have that reality-lived experience we have, you know, witnessed through our, you know, our lifetime, right? So that is a common theme among um indigenous people from various tribes, right? We are wanting to attempt and learn from each other, right? And we're in Canadian society, they always just want to rely on the interpreter and they just want to hire an interpreter and bring in an interpreter, and they just it's a reliance tool, right? And so it for them, interpretation means it's a service, right? And so I want to connect with you, I want to communicate with you, and so we need to have that process and we need to facilitate language to be able to have that success be successful, right? So sometimes later on they'll ask me for feedback, you know, after certain situations. And some and you know one moment for the entrepreneur. So when I'm talking about meeting that individual that was from Navajo Trime, it's not like a kind of communication where it's necessarily like we're speaking the same language, but we are connecting with you know the visual representation. We understand our you know certain body movements, we understand certain concepts, we have the shared understanding. So we just can pick it up well because we have the same shared experience. experiences where some another individual you know maybe it's more limited or more of denial or maybe they haven't connected or done any reflection right they're kind of um more limited in their communication you know so i always express to everybody when i sign it has connection within me there's meaning you know and some people will be like well wow you sign really fast and i'm like i know but you know that's just how i am that is me that's my natural way of communicating way of signing and so i do try to reflect and when you're in kind of like a group you know discussion or um you're discussing certain topics one more for the introvert so when you know you hunt a buffalo right and you have that you need to show that respect and that thanks to the buffalo because you gave up your life to nourish me right so we naturally understand that and we naturally you know know that cycle right and so if you overhunt and kill like many buffalo that just portrays our weakness do you have that shared common understanding right so we want control right and so it's that sense of like being lost and so you know in the north you know with for them to do certain things to be able to get from point A to B they rely on the dog sled right and so in their area you know it also is a strong sense of lifestyle right so like you know if somebody comes in and is like oh dogs are dirty dogs you know they just have all these negative you know stereotypes against the dog and start killing them all right it just leads to disaster and negative impacts and for our people we have a lot of knowledge with the cornfield and you have other individuals who come to it with um you know the whole process of you know harvesting the cornfield and they don't like it and so they're like oh just burn it right but for us we you're like you're destroying all of our food right and so they do that just in for the intention of gaining control right so when you discuss communication and how to use language and then somebody comes in and interrupts that and says you have to learn English you know we are just used to English right but ironically anybody you know who speaks English they don't know how to communicate or don't know another language they just rely on English right and so when they go to another part of the world you know they can't they don't understand that language or don't learn it right so and so why do they not have that skill and why do so many parts of the world have been exposed to the colonial language of English right because they are stuck when somebody doesn't know how to speak English.

SPEAKER_11 1:54:14

So that um colonial aspect that has trapped our people and has you know had the impacts on the buffalo the cornfields you know and other very negative impacts that have disrupted our life our life our life and our traditions you know it's we already understand that it's really not the focus is oh because you have a disability you know really it's the point of English language communication and to have full understanding you know when you go to various conferences you'll always hear you know the topic about how do we avoid English how do we get to a point where there's no English right and I was like well why don't you just not speak any English right you know so um you know in the deaf community there is international sign language so it's it's there's no like one mainstream sign like English right so when me and mom travel to different areas in the world you know and there's no English language or signs or anything we can still interact with the human being that's in from that country that we don't speak the same language but we can interact quite comfortably and and and fluidly with understanding whereas the hearing person when they go to different parts of the world and there's no English sometimes they lose all sense of understanding and they can't communicate right so for us um you know it's a lot more fluid and easier you know and I've you know been there I've experienced it I've witnessed it you know in various settings and approaches to communications um through my lifetime right and I've witnessed and seen you know hearing people who only know English and how they struggle right so internationally deaf people don't struggle um as is in comparison to hearing people and internationally different sign languages there's over 300 and you know New Zealand the Maori people have their own sign language there's Mayan sign language from South America you know and so there's lots of various you know sign language languages around the world and so that again is not new it's historical it's always been here right and you can see how their language shows their culture and every place in the world you can see their culture through their language thanks so much oh my goodness um um I I'm not sure if um just to add like to add on to like what you were saying Dominique I um had the privilege of going to New Zealand Tanesa and um went to the workshop for the Maori um sign or the sorry the Maori Sign Language workshop um and they also spoke about um a little bit about OSL and a little bit about the Plains um sign and I'm I'm not sure how familiar you are and I'm not sure if like what I'm reiterating what was um shared with me there um how um accurate I am at at re resharing that but um they said that you know before colonization across Turtle Island um like a lot of our like from nation to nation we were using sign because it was a universal thing because maybe not every nation or community understood other communities and um their uh um their language so um I was like that was like a real like I don't know I just I found that so powerful that like like you said like why aren't more people um you know using it and and that was a a question I wanted to ask was that um what's your stance or how do you feel about um others that are not uh Oneida or um others that maybe not be from the same community or other and and learning OSL like where how like per like I guess personally between yourself and Marcia how do you both feel about um you know either whether they're hearing or um not Oneida like also learning OSL is just curious.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:36

I feel that empowerment like if somebody's interested I feel that it can only be beneficial and to have that interaction it's very natural and I feel like it will help keep you know communication you know going. Whereas within ASL sometimes you can feel like sometimes there's misunderstanding sometimes there's like hesitations right and when you're using OSL I notice that for you know another individual's for their you know from their cultural perspective right because sometimes there's certain things that I notice that is not our culture from Oneida and so sometimes I'll ask them like because I don't understand and it's not clear to me because I don't know your culture so they'll then give me an example um you know to like they'll visually show me something like on how how to do something then that can give me an understanding and help uh come up with like a translation to you know truly show that intent and that meaning behind the culture. And they'll say oh and then I'll ask them after I come up with a sign for that you know concept or you know what they're discussing they'll say yes you know that does make sense and after we have that interaction I'll tell them that's not mine because that's not from my culture that's yours. You can take that sign and you can keep it because it is affiliated with your culture and your language right so sometimes um you know we are reached out to for to give assistance or guidance in the sense of appropriate sign that's more based in culture and rooted um from that perspective. So when you're having that interaction right and you have um it doesn't necessarily always mean it's like that fluid fast you know conversational sometimes when you are using OSL you want to really focus on setting the foundation first because if there's no foundation the rest of my signing if it's fast and lots there it's incomplete without the foundation so you always want to make sure that the basic foundation is set and you have that understanding then you can progress into the next steps and after that and you know I'm not talking about like you know we won't focus on that now but you know in the future later on when we have you know more people that have the knowledge that fluent fluency and that pace will naturally come as the language grows and develops and people you know learn and use it you know and there's be certain you know for right now it's slow process like one sign at a time one phrase at a time it's not to the level where you can have a fluid conversation nonstop right right now our team is about three or four of us. So our OSL is not to the point of that fluency yet you know I feel like when OSL is being used by at least a hundred people or more then we will have that natural fluency and flow of a language right now it's just three or four of us so it's a very slower you know smaller process in utilizing the language right I I hope to get to one day where I can have a daily life of being able to use OSL. Right now that's not the experience because we are still in that developing progress um developing and growing the language right so it's very very slow process right now and a lot of discussion based on what the meaning is and you know what what does that mean and making sure that each person has the comprehension and that somebody else would understand it. And so a lot of um people we get interested in OSL they'll say oh I've seen ASL I know ASL and you know accessibility but they still struggle even though they have ASL like you know sometimes we'll go to workshops or or present workshops and then we'll get you know a lot of people um replying saying oh it's so clear that you know it it it's not confusing at all it's very clear I understand it and I only want more right so I noticed that impact after a workshop with OSL it has that type of powerful impact and leaving people wanting more and them feeling that natural guidance to rely on it more. And so from what I experience I do think you know it's great and it's been an amazing and um realization.

SPEAKER_07 2:05:14

Also just to add Marsha saying um when you're talking um about PISL um that's something that has historically been used by hearing people as well the Plains Indian Sign Language it was used when they would gather at their TPs and um they would they they came together as a community and made a resource um that it's nothing fancy it's just a soft cover um booklet that they had collaborated together to make and document the sign language that they used um for the different goings on in their culture and that kind of really just exploded as well and I think um it's something people get fascinated by because it's all in the hands. There's no facial expressions or anything that happens with it. And so I was curious about it and I was looking through that booklet and I realized that um oh like this is really interesting. I don't know why why it didn't go any further than it did. Why is there just this one resource um about this sign language and this nation's use of it. But I realized it's because it's been taken from them too. It's something that was historically there and then taken from them like so many things have been um but it's so important for all of us to keep these things going for the whole world because everybody does benefit from it and um it wasn't right to be taken away from us and it really caused a lot of damage where now we have to go back and repair and um reclaim a lot of that stuff that was taken and try to remember it. And it takes a long time but sign languages in particular I mean if you've seen my presentation um you know there's um there's so much symbolism that relates to our families and our relations and our our culture with hunting or with um elders um hearing elders talking about that kind of thing and their memories of all of these events that they signed for the youth signs for um and you know it was very visual historically that people understood each other. You know, a sign like this everybody knows exactly what you're supposed to do and what it means when you're out hunting we've always always had that but it's been taken from us and so um it's good to be aware of that and to understand how you know we've we've been given this language of English and ASL and how it's taken away our voice and it's taken away our experiences and we were kind of scared into learning it and relying on it and how now we have so much trauma related to that and issues that come up that um you know there's been so many changes throughout history that have been really really terrible that cause us to not understand how we feel about a lot of stuff. So um there's there's a huge impact on people who have experienced trauma or who have experienced their languages being taken away and their sign languages that their communities have had being taken away also. And so that's why I think it's so important to advocate about it because that's a part of us that's missing and um how can we get it back and the reason that it was taken is because they knew they knew that that's a piece of us that's a piece of who we are and they leave us with this trauma that leads to all of these other problems like addiction and um things that just kind of snowball into the society that we have now. And so we have to understand you know you have to understand who you are and um we have to look at our mental health especially and how we can heal that um you know there's there's lots of people talking about it now and they're saying oh go get help go get help but what is that help? We historically have help and healing built into our traditions, into our culture. We are already rich with all of this knowledge so you can't take away that knowledge from us and then tell us to heal from it in your ways. We have it embedded in us already we are strong we can advocate for ourselves and we just need this knowledge given back to us and shared within our communities to be able to actually heal from it. But people don't think about that very often we have to keep back with our ways because our ways are strong and that is how we get through all of the horrific things that have ever happened to us. That's how we can decolonize that is it's it's really really sad when you think about it. And people are always asking how do we do this? How do we do this? And I always say you know we can we can beat them we have our cultures we have um our communities that we can talk with each other and that's why I always do presentations and I feel very passionate about it because I'm trying to say come on we have to work together I can't do this by myself we need people to work together to get this done um and you know I've been in in government rooms I've been you know talking to different officials and I've I've gone all of the places and talked to so many people just to try to get them to see that. And I don't know where else I could go at this point because we're still struggling. We're still weak in that we don't have that understanding no matter how many presentations we do no matter how how widespread we we send our message it's not always understood because because there's that that gap there. So we just need to keep doing it more. I'm always advocating for deaf people to get more access to not slowly spread but it's something that honestly um it's because this was taken away from us and the way they tell us to heal from it is through their ways. But I think I feel very strongly that if we can if we can keep with our cultures, if we can advocate for our own languages including sign languages um to be revitalized rather than learning English, learning to speak, all of that kind of stuff um it's honestly it's a it's a load of bullshit to be quite honest. I I don't want to like I don't I'm I'm being completely serious here. I mean it's it's funny but it it it really it's that's not our way generally the time oh go

SPEAKER_11 2:12:00

Ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 2:12:04

I just would like to emphasize that we do need to continue with OSL and develop it and have it grow. And we would like to get to the point where we utilize and rely on OSL, right? Because nowadays when I'm looking at disability, the laws, you know, all those impacts and you know what it looks like today and what it means today, and having various, you know, conversations and the political lens as well. But really at the root of it, my understanding with my grandmothers and my ancestors, and coming from the land and our history, and how all of that accumulates and creates our understanding with the great law of peace, right? And representation of what's important is to follow the mother clan and to have that recognition and to have that solid protection of our families. And um, it's the women who lead in the voting for chief and the you know the political roles, and so as well as taking care of the children, right? It's the the women, right? And they are very powerful, and that is our clan system as well. It's very strong and powerful, and the women lead, and you know, it's emphasized that they, you know, stand up, they follow um, you know, the great law of peace, and we value, you know, the life-giving of you know, women, right? And so in everything that is entailed with that in that being and seven, this future seven generations, and when I look at all of that, you know, that makes me want to stand within that power and recognize that empowerment. And I am um, you know, a woman, but at the same time, I view that as like loss, you know, loss of empowerment, right? Without the language, there's certain things that are disconnected or taken away, right? So when I have to go to discuss about, you know, politics, you know, it's usually geared towards disability politics or conversation. And I'm like, no, but that's not what my purpose is, like what I my politics, you know. I want to look at it from the lens of my nation and my people and what you took away from our people, right? So um I just know within myself, with my own within knowledge that has, you know, and traditions of our grandmothers and my aunts and mothers and our ancestors, that that is, you know, my identity. That's you know, what I would follow, not what, you know, society, um, you know, being involved in conversations that just take my energy, that kind of our conversations to or to take the goal is to take control, right? So with OSL, we want to take that empowerment back and to rely on our systems, our family systems, our clan systems, and to have that natural, you know, interaction between one individual and another without intrusion, that we are, you know, similar or the same to be able to have that under same understanding, right? And so when you have um two different languages and you're trying to communicate with the two different languages, that just creates that distance and that disconnect and becomes you know, where you don't understand those people, you don't understand, right? So, like with disability or the government, you know, they just want to look at it from the medical perspective. And so, you know, that's where we lose that sense of power because they hire all these people, right, to discuss disability and they ask us questions, but where are those where is where the where is my nation? Where are my people? Right? So it's good for nations to recognize what has been taken from us, and when you look at it within the disability, they should not be relying on outsourcing to you know various resources, it should stay within community and you should stick together, you know, as a community, right? So, you know, if a mother has you know children that are disabled or that are deaf, right, they'll usually, you know, if they come and take that child away from you, how would you feel, right? So in urban settings, they have various resources, you know. So sometimes, you know, they'll move out of community to urban setting for those resources, right? And so, but you were able to have that strong connection to your community and that identity, right? But when you left looking for other resources and other support, you also created that disconnect from the community. And so parents who have children that have disabilities, like enough is enough. You can't rely on these out resources, you have to come back within community and rely on community. And I don't want to focus on communication that is, you know, the focus is to take out of the community. You know, I want to focus on my community with my people and all of us working towards it together. You know, when I want to communicate with somebody, I want to communicate with my community with my people. I don't want to have to leave to, you know, source out a resource out of the community, you know, or sometimes to have um communication or you have to have a need, then you have to like ask and kind of get approval. Like imagine, you know, if that's the case, right? So like when we communicate, and then you have people, you know, that are, you know, in Canadian society, right? They they come and they set up certain things, and you know, for me to communicate, they have to, you know, go through this process of approval, right? Just to be able to communicate. And so it's just like that type of structure, that type of approach just feels wrong. So if you have, you know, individuals together, you know, communicating together, you're on the same land, that is communication, you know, that is yours, right? Nobody owns that. That's yours to own and keep. You guys are the decision makers. You guys are the ones that are empowered and involved in that communication, right? Because you guys are the ones involved within that communication every day, right? So you don't have individuals or other people bringing policies in, right? Like, oh, do you want an interpreter? Oh, we'll have to see if there's you know funds available, right? Or all these other layers of process or you know, red tape, or we have to go through and ask a manager to see if we can get an interpreter for the communication, or do you want access, you know, to somebody that signs, or do you not want that option in signed? Like that process just feels very confusing and wrong to me, right? So if you are within a nation and there's language being used and conversations being had, it is your right to have access. You have the right to enter into your home territories where these events or communications are happening. You have the right to access them. You don't have to leave them, right? So sometimes, you know, people look at it as like, oh, well, do we want to put that version out there using sign language? Like, I don't know why there's this theory of you need to ask, right? Like, you know, we can understand that and can say that it's a human right to have language access, and that includes sign language, but that has to go beyond just words. There actually has to be action. Right now it's just a lot of talk and no action, you know, and you know, for other, you know, sign languages, you know, we would love to see other spoken languages have their own sign languages, but right now it's moving at a very slow pace where we're not seeing that. So I have gone through um certain experiences where you know we are deciding on a sign for OSL and there's been disagreements and people saying, I don't agree with you know your process or how you've come to that sign. My mom has experienced that with her, you know, interactions and providing different presentations. And it's fine, you know, for somebody to you know say they don't agree with a certain sign or don't agree with that process, right? But they are coming through as um a person through the disabled lens, right? You know, if they are another deaf individual and they use sign, they are classified as disabled, like period, right? It's one more thing to individuals who have hearing loss, it is a possibility for any human being, and people m lose their hearing at various stages in life, right? And so it's a possibility for everybody, and then everybody would be disabled, like classified as disabled, period. So, which means that with the community being inclusive and involved, it lessens that um what disabled looks like. So you should rely on that within your community and not relying on that without external, you know, society resources. And that the hearing loss could be a possibility and impact any any individual.

SPEAKER_06 2:23:55

Yeah, I agree like 100% with all that was shared. And yeah, there's so many perspectives of that we have to look at with revitalization of of any language, especially you know, sign language. You know, there's so many different aspects to it that people don't think about or they don't talk about. And so it's good. Um hoping that we can kind of help bring this to light through this platform. And then hopefully we can um yeah, spread that message and and help people understand in in our own communities and then the broader the broader community outside of uh X real Canada.

SPEAKER_11 2:24:53

Turtle Island? Definitely um right.

SPEAKER_07 2:25:03

Oh sorry, Monty, I'm just yeah, that's a good correction to be made there.

SPEAKER_11 2:25:10

Um excuse me. I just wanted to say that like uh like I'm sure uh Monty's on the same page as me, but I'm like, we need to have you back because I could talk all night or I could listen and share space with you all night. Um and I know it it's um it's been uh several hours and whatnot. Um and I I think where we landed was a great place to end off this evening, but um like we need to stay connected and I like don't want to force Monty into another episode, but uh like would love to speak with you again um or share space with you again. Um I think there's so much to be said and so much to share, and um just like I'm blown away. Like the the the word the word that keeps coming up for me is just powerful, um, empowerment. Like I just keep hearing that over and over again. Um like just feeling that. Um and even like I'm not Oneida whatsoever, Monty, Monty is, um, but I have had the privilege of working with uh uh several Oneida individuals and have a learned a little bit more about the culture, and so um like I finally remembered my point way back when, and that was that when you use the sign to have and having the basket on, I was like, oh I actually know that reference to now. Not that we don't have our own baskets uh in our in the Schnaubai culture um with the straps and everything, but we were gifted one and we take one around to the classroom every day where I work. Um, and so it was just again like that's something that like I've just been thinking about and ruminating about and just how powerful all of that was. And um, what I have to share is like you know nothing compared to what you've been able to um express and share with us this evening. And like I said, I don't know if you're interested or not, but we should keep talking. We should keep in contact with one another. Um I'd love to to hear more, to share more space. And um, I don't I don't know how yeah, I don't know how that looks, but um I can't thank you enough. Um Yanko uh me quit.

SPEAKER_06 2:27:41

I just want to add, um Yeah, I'm just I don't know if I have the words to say it correctly. Um I just know how powerful, you know uh in Oneida culture, you know, that's a Mechi or um culture where the women lead and a lot of our indigenous cultures are like that. And I think it's just been um more suppressed, I guess, by the Western culture of how we perceive uh perceive that. But I'm just like I'm I'm inspired by your strength and your perseverance of um and your message of keeping going and pushing through and trying to keep getting the message out about OSL and just indigenous languages in general and how we need to uh trust trust in our ways, trust in our own ways of being and not relying on on this other culture for for ours to survive or for us to keep going. And so I'm just um really really proud of you for your being able to persevere through all of that and even through things that that I'm not that I haven't been through, like you know, being in the deaf community and going through what that what all that entails, the perseverance of that and um so I'm just I'm just um inspired and proud of you that that you that you're that you're the work that you're doing and I hope that you you never lose that um that drive of of to keep going and um Yeah I'm just uh I don't know what the word is flattered or uh just honored to have you on on our platform that we have and um Yeah, I hope it resonates with people as much as it has with me.

SPEAKER_11 2:30:17

Yeah, you've really gifted us a lot this evening, like without like without an extractive way, like it's uh like you've you've really gifted, I think, a lot of people, not just myself, but like I like I say, like I'm a very emotional person, but I'm like you gifted a lot to me, and I'm just really appreciative, um, like you said, of of trying to step into this uh into my path through through revitalization with the same amount of like um dignity, uh strength, uh determination, like it's given me a like a bit of a boost in not just in revitalization, but just as a woman, just as a person. Um so I want to say thank you again.

SPEAKER_06 2:31:06

Is there anything that um you guys have like uh I don't know, resources you want to share about or um about promoting OSL or if you're at that stage yet, or if that's your plans on doing that?

SPEAKER_04 2:31:35

We have distributed USB drives. We are actually um, you know, they've been all um taken, and so we had uh about 50 who wanted to learn or sorry, one moment for the interpreter. So we've been running our own Instagram. Um you can follow OnadaHyphen ASL. I'm sure you'll be able to um show the link of our Instagram. Uh our Instagram is not um, you know, updated, you know, as often like every day. You know, apologize for that. You know, we don't have the time, it is um occasionally updated, so you can just access it to see various videos. Um and we started to develop a website that's in progress. The intention for the website is for community to be able to see um any future plans, you know, if they want to be involved in certain workshops or to be able to kind of to show certain videos, you know, for good, you know, shareable information. That's the intent for the website. And really the first step um if you are interested is to contact us because our goal is that interaction, and we would you know enjoy being able to support and um have that support for you and you know, conversation. We could send you um, you know, different video links during that interaction. And so really that's what we value is that personal interaction. You know, sometimes if somebody contacts us and we just send them a video and then that's it, that's not really our approach. You know, sometimes we'll ask you what's your intent, why are you interested in OSL? And it, you know, the context of who this individual is is important. And this is not only for um you know Oneida Nation only. I have had interest, you know, from you know um people that are Mohawk or you know various areas in Ontario, in New York, in Wisconsin, Quebec. There's been exposure in all those areas within North America, Turtle Island. And so we are witnessing our six nations, you know, just collaborating and communicating together. You know, within our tribe there's those six languages, right? Sister languages. There's the Mohawk, you know, and Oneida, and we can have that interaction and that communication and have that um you know same understanding. And so I feel like this is a new process of having you know minds opened and eyes opened and to be able to build strength off of. And so I've had really good conversations you know between Mohawk and Oneida. And it started in Quebec and so you know it is growing but it has started and it's just nice to see the interest and the growth and of course like anything else it will just take more time and also don't be shy you know reach out to us introduce yourself we are very open-minded we are very um interactive and willing to partake in you know conversations um you know very similar concept with you know how you are already used to you know getting together with community you know for any you know cultural reason you know sometimes you get together you know in terms of mentorship you know you'll meet up networking with individuals to you know mentorship between your two nations or your two cultures right and so you know when you take that concept and you're trying to apply it to learning sign language you want that same type of mentorship somebody who is fluent somebody who is deaf and have that lived experience and so we have that language fluency in ASL and so you know really what's um the most important is that mentor because it is impossible to do that individual learning um you know and it's the same within our communities right if you take um a you know a cultural you know lesson or tradition you usually have that mentorship within community right and so the same applies here right you're involved in you know your various community or family um conversations and you're always observing and so the same approach you know goes when you're learning sign language to have the exposure in the different contexts and different environments you watch videos you attend you know certain um events or settings to see conversations happening it's not just relying on like only closed caption or only one certain type of you know uh signs or certain conversations right there's a lot of ways that misunderstandings can happen right so just depending on um relying on the source language and then learning the sign language but we actually take the approach you know the opposite way just by the exposure and seeing um you know various users using the language signing and we don't rely on like the books and the videos right away and so you want to make sure when you're interacting and you're learning that um you build that trust within um you know your mentorship of the a deaf individual because if you don't build that trust and you don't um build that understanding you know with your mentor you know like for me sometimes when people come up to me and sign sometimes if I don't understand them I will be honest with them be like I have no idea what you're signing right and so I can you know usually detect you know somebody's um kind of skill with their language use or their background I can really tell when they sign and so sometimes when they're come to me and sign I can tell their approach hasn't um been you know an appropriate approach to learning the language you know so if you um you know engage with us to come and have a conversation it is important to also listen with that understanding and learning intent and not to just allow your ego to guide you because our comments or our feedback is an attempt to guide you right so if you approach me and you have an ego and you have like I know what's best already and I really am kind of I'll I'll shut the conversation down and I can detect it right away you know so I have the lived experience I have the fluency in the in sign language whether it's ASL OSL and so I have the experience of being involved in various you know settings like within community I've had the international um you know travels to I for Irish Sign Language and just various sign languages I've gone and studied you know ASL curriculum and their approach to how their curriculum is designed I have an advanced level of experience of these variety of experiences I've been involved with and I've gone to various workshops and conferences where it's only for in sign language. There's no interpreters or anything and so I've gone to you know those type of events and I've seen other hearing individuals attend those events not as you know to interpret them or as an interpret you know just um just to go and partake into the activity and so I've met um like a Cree deaf person but really the point I'm trying to get to is that you know if you are hearing individual that goes to the same you know approach like you're already starting from behind from a deficit right so you know I come from that community of being deaf and having the fluency in sign language you know I have that lived experience um within my community I can't speak you know for you know other indigenous communities but the intent for me is to bring forward and to portray sorry for the interpreted pronunciation Honishone and so to have that interaction you know various with various people right so if we don't portray our culture or don't provide the explanation or the meaning then who is going to do it right so Marsha and myself want to bring our cultural forward want to show our nation and to that to show have our rights you know portrayed as well and so who's leading that currently at the moment it's it's we are right so we're the ones being proactive and involved in you know the process and um you know discussions you know and it is you know getting spreading internationally we are you know getting contacts internationally now reaching out to us where it was before it was only within Canada and so Marcia you know feels very proud you know that our nation and representation of our nation is spreading and having um you know a great impact and to have people um recognizing OSL and recognizing Marsha and I always tell my mom you cannot ever retire you know no it doesn't matter where you go you're gonna have people chasing you and giving you the spotlight and she just laughs Yonko Dominique say Yanko again oh Monty I think you're on mute oh yeah I think your mic is uh off or you're too far we can barely hear you me yes I'm just relaxing listening sat back too far um oh I was just saying like thank you Yanko uh again um and then I just said asked Monty if he had anything um if he if he I told him his mic was off and then if uh if he was trying to say something.

SPEAKER_06 2:44:00

Oh just yeah I just everything is just good that you shared and yeah I don't I don't know what else to say because it's it's just it's kind of mind blowing.

SPEAKER_11 2:44:18

So which is what Monty had to say when he first told me he wanted to have you on the podcast um he just kept telling me like I could it's just my mind is blown it's oh my god there's so much to share and and I was just like oh like I just got so excited so I've been waiting I'm so glad this finally happened because I've been waiting a long time to make it happen and then I know we have to coordinate quite a few people and I'm really happy that we were able to so um yeah I'm really glad that like the culture is really leading um and you guys are also leading in Marcia that you probably won't retire. That's uh yeah well I'm doing pretty good so far health wise so awesome well we say uh yeah Bianco and thank you again and we're not and we hope that you have a wonderful restful sleep this evening and um yeah if you need anything thank you oh yes so the ASL sign is like this thank you but um for us in onida sign language we are always connected to the land so the creator and the land so we say okay okay I don't know why I didn't ask that earlier well it's it's great to think about too because we're always like I said we're connected to the land it shows that connection that we have that is very unique.

SPEAKER_04 2:46:06

I would just also like to mention that you know um as we went over that sign for uh Yanko um we've as discussed through um you know the process of this podcast you know for just more um kind of for indigenous communities to open awareness to open discussion because they have not yet had you know the opportunity right because um they have had you know barriers or other things that just have not allowed them to have the opportunity to have um you know to meet somebody to have a discussion so I'm very thankful that you guys were wanting to have um and bring this discussion to light and so to be able to have this podcast reach um you know your listeners and if you know that means more exposure and people wanting to reach out for resources or for you know maybe their own podcast you know that we are um open to just you know having this reach to a broader audience and any opportunities that might lead to as well.

SPEAKER_07 2:47:27

Thank you for opening that yes of course that's yeah that's the point yeah awesome well it's a good day see you it again um hope to see you again soon yes well hopefully to see you again soon I hope everybody has a safe and a good night yes have a good night thank you also um just for context we never use the word by in our language or bye um because I've never understood what like I see the word by and it means death you know that's the end that's that's the end of it all and so I always like to hug in say we'll see you later we'll see you again I never use the word bye so I think it's really important you know it's English is so silly sometimes to bye and I'm never gonna see you again we have that in common we don't have a goodbye and then have anyone either so yes we will see you later wherever that is on our path yes of course thank you so hugs take care okay yeah take care to the interpreters as well thank you yes thank you so much for your time tonight let me go ahead chickup sundow yeah thanks so much for listening to our podcast and weighing our sound to reach us by email find us at our sound period podcast at gmail.com you can find all of our links to buy me a coffee, Patreon, Instagram, etc at our link tree which is link tr period e slash nweying dot our sound our theme song was done by myself Neen Matchkogwudkwe and artwork completed by Nishime my younger brother Brent Beauchamp.

SPEAKER_12 2:49:39

Jimmy Quechua