The Whole Shebang
The Whole Shebang Podcast is a space to explore our collective awakening, often through the lens of unifying the Divine Feminine and Masculine in order to experience our most whole lives.
Each week Jennifer connects with various teachers, authors, friends, heart centered leaders and creators on topics such as coming home to ‘Self,’ consciousness, sacred sexuality, manifestation, abundance, inner alchemy and personal growth.
These conversations are aimed at supporting people in connecting to their own inner knowing, power, and divinity, to enlighten their lived experience, and move people towards their fullest potential. The Whole Shebang Podcast is here to create an energetic space and channel where people are invited to re-member who we are as individuals, and as a collective.
It's with all the love, and so much joy that we invite you to to buckle up buttercups, because we’re diving in! - xx
The Whole Shebang
The Hidden Power Beyond Control | Kendra Cunov on Authentic Leadership
"The challenging thing about power is to detangle what I would call systems of control from power itself. When we say that person has more power, what we mean is they have more access to control or systems of control. To me, that's not power. Power itself is this thread that runs through many things. Most people have experienced the power of a song, or the power of a sunset to stop you in your tracks, the power of the moon, or the power of the wind. This power has something to do with the impact on us - things can impact us differently and they can all be powerful." - Kendra Cunov
CHAPTERS:
04:00 Coherence and Chaos
12:46 Navigating Political and Societal Chaos
16:07 Redefining Power Dynamics
24:58 The Impact of Systems of Control
31:01 Feminine vs. Female Leadership
34:00 The Future is Wholeness
37:01 Men Holding Boundaries as Leaders
43:01 Community and Mutual Aid
45:01 Finding Your Inner Compass
50:58 Embodying Pleasure and Power
58:52 Purpose Beyond Relationships
1:04:29 Moving at The Speed of Trust
ABOUT KENDRA CUNOV:
Founder of The Fierce Grace Incubator, Kendra Cunov has been studying, facilitating, and most importantly, practicing Authentic Relating, Embodiment Practices & Deep Intimacy Work for over 20 years. Kendra has worked with thousands of men, women & couples in the areas of embodiment, intimacy, communication & full self-expression. She co-founded Authentic World with Decker Cunov, as well as The Embodied Relationship Training Salon with John Wineland, and pioneered some of the most cutting edge relational work on the planet. Kendra has consulted for companies such as Genentech & been on staff for 4PC, an elite mastermind for the top 4% of coaches in the world. She works with organizations & leaders, as well as men, women & couples, who know that embodied presence, truth, connection & integrity are our truest access points to success – in business & in love.
CONNECT WITH KENDRA:
Website: https://kendracunov.com/
Retreat: https://kendracunov.com/pleasure-purpose-power-retreat/
Article: https://kendracunov.com/2022/03/31/the-power-of-polarities/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kendra.cunov/
Instagram; https://www.instagram.com/kendra_cunov/
Support the show with your donation: https://www.support/thewholeshebangpodcast
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When a complex system is far from equilibrium, small islands of coherence in a sea of chaos have the capacity to shift the entire system to a higher order.
Kendra:What does that mean to you? I do think that at a systemic level, we are out of balance in our connection with the earth, our connection with each other, often our connection with ourselves. When we say that person has more power, what we mean is they have more access to control or more access to systems of control. To me, that's not power. What I'm hoping for is to detangle what I would call systems of control and limiting access.
Jen:If there's somebody listening today that feels like they are oppressed by the systems of control that have the perceived power, what would you say to them?
Kendra:I would say both are true. Nelson Mandela can experience liberation in a cell. That doesn't mean that everybody should be forced to do that. We should also work on whatever is fucked up with these systems of access and control.
Kendra:Feminine leadership versus female leadership, when there was that whole wave of people wearing like the future is female and then people shifted to the future is feminine and I'm like no, neither one. Yeah, like I mean, the future is all of us and the future is wholeness. The power that men have to be the one that holds the boundary to have a sense of what creates the most life, love for everyone. And then to hold the boundary there even if someone else is saying they want to go farther, sort of like oh no, we're gonna stay here, like again, whether it's sort of sexually or business wise, that's just feels so good everything in me is like Moving at the speed of trust oh, that's good.
Kendra:There are times when the speed of trust is like, oh yeah, I trust enough to slow down, and then other times that it's like, oh, I trust enough, I can take that action as a woman to embody your pleasure, live your purpose and know your power, is a revolutionary act.
Jen:I'm here for the revolution these are your words. Obviously You're like damn, that's good. Who said that? It's you? You said it.
Kendra:Women's embodied pleasure is feared and demonized. However, are we going to deny ourselves the experience of our own pleasure just because somebody might misuse it and in some way? That's? Our power, too is to know like this is this is too big, too powerful, too pure for you to corrupt. Wordgaze doesn't corrupt this.
Jen:Hey, it's Jen, your host of the Whole Shebang, where we explore the path to wholeness through conversations that I hope awaken your inner truth, authentic power, purpose and joy. Real quick. If you enjoy the podcast, we'd be so grateful if you'd follow, share and leave a five-star review. I'm getting pretty stubborn about not wanting to manipulate algorithms or get sucked into creating clickbait titles and thumbnails. I really desire for the content to speak for itself, and your shares and follows are what actually allow the container for this to continue growing. So thank you, thank you for doing that. All right, today you're in for a real treat with my guest, kendra Kunof. She's the founder of Fierce Grace Incubator.
Jen:Kendra has been studying, facilitating and, most importantly, practicing authentic relating embodiment practices and deep intimacy work for over 20 years. Kendra has worked with thousands of men, women and couples in the areas of embodiment, intimacy, communication and full self-expression. She co-founded Authentic World with Dekker Kunov, as well as the Embodied Relationship Training Salon with John Wineland, and pioneered some of the most cutting-edge relational work on the planet. Kendra has consulted for companies such as Genentech and been on staff for 4PC, an elite mastermind for the top 4% of coaches in the world. She works with organizations and leaders, as well as men, women and couples who know that embodied presence, truth, connection and integrity are our truest access points to success in business and in love.
Jen:All right, everyone, I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. It was a true honor to host Kendra. Kendra, welcome to the whole shebang. Thank you. I'm glad to be here. It is an honor to be hosting this conversation today. I've spent some time since we chatted and I've been looking over your work, some of your work, what I can see of it and was like oh, if you would have asked me a year ago what we would be talking about, I think it's different than what I think we're going to talk about today, and so what I want to start with is one of the quotes that you had up on your Instagram, and it says when a complex system is far from equilibrium, small islands of coherence in a sea of chaos have the capacity to shift the entire system to a higher order. What does that mean to you?
Speaker 3:Okay, Okay, mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm. Hmm, thank you. Yeah, oh, my gosh, mm-hmm, mm, mm-hmm, yeah.
Jen:Okay, there's so much there. So when you were writing that, when you were posting that and you talk about, you know if there's a lack of resonance or a lack of coherence, was there a? What were you speaking to? Is it what you're seeing in social media? Can we just I'm just gonna like call out is it the political stuff happening or is? Was it just something more personal? Was it? Are you looking at the bigger scope of things right now when you posted that, or what was that about for you?
Kendra:Yeah, I mean in one sense it was very much about what's happening politically in the United States and like I think they use the words first just a complex system out of balance, yeah, but then they talk about chaos, and I think there is a sense whether it actually is chaos or not.
Kendra:The sense that I have is that a lot of people around me feel chaotic or feel chaos, energy, and so that was the space in which that landed in my world and it was sort of the space at which it brought some. I mean, I would say, even reading that, it was like it brought some coherence to my system and in this I mean this is different than the quote itself, but just that idea of action being the antidote to hopelessness or despair, like it gave me a gesture that felt really like, oh yes, I know what to do, I know what to do with this, whereas I had found myself a little bit in a like what do I do? What do I do? What do I do? Yeah, which I would also say is notable for me, because people do come to me a lot and they're like, yeah, but what do I do?
Kendra:that and often my response is sort of like yeah, maybe it's not so much like what do we do coming from this, how do I fix or solve or change, but that was very much what was coming up for me. A lot, but what do I do? What do I do? And so to find some gesture that felt true and manageable and effective in some way, like it does actually have an impact, was really important to me.
Jen:And so the for lack of a better way of putting it the doing or the action to take would be finding that resonance within self or becoming the tuning fork. Is that kind of what you? What was the thing for you? That was like, okay, this is what I'm, who I'm being.
Kendra:I would say that actually the first thing for me, because that can be right, it can be an inward piece first. I think that is great, it can totally work. For me, it was actually important to make an outward gesture, and one of the first things I did was reach out to a friend and I left a message and I basically said like I'm not okay, and so it was kind of a I mean, there's content to that Like it was important that the content but it was also just a truth telling. It was reaching out to somebody that I do feel fundamental resonance with Although I also like to say he's one of my favorite people to disagree with, and I think it's because of that fundamental resonance that we've known each other almost 20 years now or something and we've had points of disagreement and just to be able to go like, oh, I'm not okay.
Kendra:Actually, I need connection here and I need this feeling of coherence. Yeah, sometimes it can also be right, even if we don't agree about everything, like when it seems really chaotic, somebody who will say, oh, I don't think you're crazy, like I see what you see, which isn't again total agreement. We may not agree about what to do or every little piece, but it's like, yes, I see what you see. It's like, oh, thank God.
Jen:There's so much.
Jen:You know I'm I'm watching what you're sharing online and a lot of women that I think are in the same circle, that I've been in and you just correct any of this if I'm misspeaking at all but in the realm of feminine embodiment and polarity and creating health and wholeness and wellness within and then within community and connection to the earth and with everything that's happening, I'm personally I don't know if the word is struggling or wrestling with, like I don't know if the word is struggling or wrestling with, like I'm hesitating to not say what to do, but the role to play, like I feel called, and I would love to talk about the leadership component with you, because I just think that if we can recognize that we all have the same life force flowing through us, that we shouldn't be, if there's oneness, pitted against each other, but then, on the other hand, I'm thinking of this life-death-life cycle and how there's destruction before there's rebirth, and do I actually need to be involved in repairing something?
Jen:What if things are meant to just deconstruct and my best gift to that is to hospice it? So I've been curious about your vantage point on what's happening and how you're relating to it what's happening politically, specifically and societally, and how we relate to that right now.
Kendra:Yeah, I mean that's a big question and I definitely acknowledge that different people have different roles. People have different roles and I think there's an inhale exhale. I mean I love that you brought in kind of the life-death life cycle, but I think looking at cycles is actually important. Some of that includes looking at history. Right, some people like to talk about cycles in the more cosmic sense but they don't actually go like, yeah, and historically was so. There's many layers of cycle and then inhale exhale is also looking at things from content but also at kind of energetic signature. So the impulse to be constantly engaged in social justice has often a very similar energetic signature as the impulse to be constantly producing for capitalism.
Jen:Ooh, break that down. Can you break that down?
Kendra:Like I haven't done enough, I don't know enough, I haven't donated enough money, I'm not politically involved, I'm like what I haven't, I didn't do anything a minute ago to you know, like like that, just the impulse that goes like oh, my God, I haven't done enough, I haven't done enough, I haven't made enough money, I haven't, I haven't posted enough, I haven't. You know it's. It feels like the same energetic signature and I think that we, I want to be, um, aware of both, because there's an, there's an inclination also to go very all or nothing. Well then, great, then it's all about, just like, I just need to, I need to find my own inner peace so that I'm unplugging from that signature. Right, and actually the most important thing I can do is, like you know, self-liberation and, and I just want to say I don't think it's either or, and that when we think it's either or, we also miss the point, and that has its own energetic signature.
Kendra:So something that goes like oh right, yes, I want to be really aware of when I'm running the same operating system but for a different cause, like I could run that operating system for money or I could run it for social justice, kind of the same operating system, but that, rather than going like I guess that means I need to opt out altogether, I go like so how am I going to do this differently?
Kendra:How do I recognize there is something that I can do and I can't do everything, and that there's a time, you know, depending on who we are and our, I don't know, this is a weird example, but my son is 15. And he let you know. I mean, didn't we all just know everything, just write about everything? So he kind of likes to poke at me, but I like it and something that is true for me, you know, or one of the ways that I sort of engage don't engage with a system based on my values. It's like I do not shop from Amazon and I never get more like criticism than when I post about that publicly.
Jen:Really oh yeah. I just started talking a little bit more I better expect it's coming for me too.
Kendra:but yeah, go ahead Most people are just like well, you know, not everybody can do that, like some people they're, they're posting like for other people they're like not everybody has that luxury or that's such a privileged standpoint or, um, you know, some people have chronic illnesses and I'm like, well, first of all, I'm not talking about being puritanical about it. I still order things online. I don't live in a hut, you know, like I'm not whittling my own spoons I know people who do and also buying things, you know, but like I'm not actually so. I'm not trying to say I'm perfect, but I do talk about it, you know. But like I'm not actually so, I'm not trying to say I'm perfect, yeah, but I do talk about it publicly.
Kendra:And what my son was kind of poking was he was like oh yeah, well, you know, that's kind of virtue signaling and I said, well, actually I think I would like to think of it more like possibility modeling is that I want people to know that it's actually possible, because I think sometimes it really seems like I can't survive without this, like it's so now in great, or that we get caught in a thing of I can't, I can't do without this thing, and I like to say like actually it's possible and I still do order things online and I, um, you know, maybe it takes longer, maybe I have to buy a slightly different thing, maybe I have to like research the thing and find out everything you can buy on Amazon somewhere else. Um, and then maybe there maybe there are some people that live some places where they find that there's like five things they actually need to buy an Amazon really different than like a hundred things. So, again, I'm not going all or nothing, but part of what I said to my son was also like um, I, I do have a following. It's not huge, I'm not like a star, but I but I and he he kind of had this like oh yeah, you're right, you're actually one of those people that could make a difference by saying something.
Kendra:So, I think, recognizing where we, what, what power we do have, do we have it by saying something locally? Do we? Do we have a bit of a platform where it's actually relevant, not as like a preacher style Preachers are great too, it's not my style but but like where we can say something that can make people think um, do we have the time to donate to a cause? Um, and then where do we step back into maybe our, our personal selves, our family life you know our exhale, um and so letting it have some rhythm and not making it all one or the other.
Jen:Yeah, for people that aren't watching this on YouTube, I'm really loving your body language and just that inhale, exhale, sense of rhythm and that theme has been coming up a lot. I mean the natural cycles that we go through. I'm going to say versus, which is kind of ironic, this binary way of thinking that this or that, and in the polarity world I'm seeing a lot more people talk about that, which I'm loving because it's been, it's been a real like. Can I say it? Can I swear it's been? Like I'm asking can I, can you give me permission Like mindfuckery you know to be like feel, like, oh, I've got now I've got to move into this thing and sold an idea that I've got to move into this thing to get that thing.
Jen:Or if I do this, it's going to get that and really what it feels like to be and you've used the phrase radical, radically whole, like what does it look like to be radically whole and then inhale and exhale through the two poles of any topic, of anything. So I really appreciate that in your work that you're putting out there, you're bringing the nuance of that to the forefront because that feels liberating to me. That feels more like freedom and more real than trying to fit into something.
Kendra:And even in that kind of a realm, like if we want to talk about the polarity realm for a hot second.
Jen:That's such a feeling around that, Kendra, which I'd like to hear.
Kendra:Well, at least acknowledging that, if we're choosing to play on the farther ends of the poles, that it's a choice on purpose, for a reason, usually for a period of time, or it's a recognition. I mean, one of the ways I like to invite people and not just kind of in polarity, masculine, feminine but in the realm of what I would call range, like, range of expression is saying like, yeah, I'm going to invite you into things that might quote, not feel like you or I'm just not that, in order to know if we even have access to that part. So it can be helpful sometimes for simplification sake, like for like, I mean basketball players. I mean they'll literally just dribble for a whole thing, and then they'll practice just shooting, shooting, shooting, but no game is any one thing, um, and so sometimes we'll say, hey, let's just practice this intensively so that it comes more naturally, so I have more access to this realm of my being, and then we're going to put it into play in a way that's way, way, way more nuanced.
Jen:That's so good and freeing. Thank you for that, that's great.
Jen:Yeah, you're welcome, I'm so glad I know I'm like you know. Yeah, it's been a thing and it's interesting because I'm stepping into relaunching a different business that has nothing to do with polarity and or relaunching, I should say, and I feel myself moving into a different part of my range and I've been so much in, I'm just going to say, the more feminine side for many, many months as a practice, sort of of devotion maybe, and I feel myself moving into a more whole, I would say more whole balance of that and it feels really fucking good. It just feels good to have that structure and to have this a different kind of power. It feels like a different kind of power which I didn't intend that to be a lead in. But I think I would love to talk with you about power.
Jen:I've seen you talking about that recently and I think it's relevant, depending on what framework we want to take with it. But you laid out some of the lies around power. If you would just speak to what is power and what are the lies and the truths around it.
Kendra:I'm like, oh, I wish I could remember what I wrote.
Jen:I wrote it down. I can walk you through them.
Kendra:You can jog me.
Kendra:I mean, I would say in the largest sense, one of the things that I really want. I mean, if what I'm hoping for is to detangle what I would call systems of control and limiting access, like, well, that's what we call power. When we say that person has more power, what we mean is they have more access to control, um, or they have more access to systems of control. When we talk about power imbalances that's often what we're talking about oh, like they can say whether I have access to something or not, I don't. Imbalances, that's often what we're talking about. Oh, like they can say whether I have access to something or not, I don't.
Kendra:To me, that's not power, that's a but it's. It's so mapped over. Now, that's just the way we talk about it and um, so, again, I love to bring this more into, like, the actual practice realm. But one of the things I often will say to people, or have people practice with, is the power of, because most people have the experience of like, oh, that was like such a powerful song, or or like, oh, wow, it was so deeply impacted, and people won't necessarily say it was a powerful sunset, but they'll be like the power of a sunset right To stop you in your tracks the power of the moon or the power of the wind, um and? And when you look at it that way, you go like, oh, this power itself, right? Is this thread that runs through? Maybe everything, but it's definitely runs through, like many, many things.
Kendra:But it definitely runs through, like many, many things, and it has something to do with the impact on us. But things can impact us differently and they can all be powerful, right, but that sense like if something takes your breath away or if it makes you laugh out loud, or if it that's, that's like an impact. So I really want to just continue to detangle this idea that power is this thing that is more like control and access to systems.
Jen:I don't even know what to call them, but, um, I think I think we know what you mean when you say that. So one of the um truths that you said or maybe you can state the lie but is that we all have that power or we all have access to power. I don't know how you'd phrase that, but how do we? I mean, I'll just speak to myself when I think of the power that I feel. To me it's like love with a capital L. It's this inner, it's from within, and that can take on different feelings, emotions, textures, range. You know, to me and I can feel that well, like even what I was just saying, this energy that I'm moving into now with my business feels like a different kind of power, but they're all power to me and they're power from within. If there's somebody listening today that feels like they are oppressed by the systems of a control that have the perceived power, what would you say to them? I would say both are true.
Kendra:So one of the reasons that I really want to distinguish this is because I think then again people fall into these binaries and either there's sort of this idea, like we all have, everybody has the same power all the time, and I think that's true, but it dismisses that actually there are systems and limits to access to these systems and there are systems of control. So to me, the fact that like Nelson Mandela can free him, can like experience liberation in a cell Great, that doesn't mean that everybody should be forced to do that in order. You know, we should also work on whatever is fucked up with these systems of access and control and to acknowledge that somebody actually does have added limitations, while still acknowledging that they actually hold the same innate power, and then grappling with that. To me that's much more interesting than either going like everyone can experience liberation or they have more power than the other person, right Like. To me, neither of those is exactly true.
Jen:Yeah, oh, so good. Okay, so lie. Number two power is only masculine. You spoke to this a little bit already, but if you want to address that again, yeah, I mean again, I think this is like opening up a lot more culturally.
Kendra:This is like opening up a lot more culturally, but I think what still, what I would call the over culture tends to like over reward kind of the pushy power, yeah, and especially in access to systems or in terms of money or things that we do need in this world. Right, again, I always want to say it's both. I want to be like is money the end, all be all? No, do we need it to live in this world? Yes, you know, don't tell me money doesn't matter, but don't tell me it's the end, all be all. Like neither one is. Yeah, so so I do, and I do still think like, especially in the world of money. So when we look at kind of the over culture, when we look at these things, that that like the kind of structure, the kind of forcefulness, the kind of clarity, these things tend to be more rewarded than you know. The power of surrender, which is vast and, you know, massively rewarding in our lives, it doesn't get paid for all that often.
Jen:How do we do it? How do we get paid for it? Kendra.
Kendra:Well, I don't know and I sometimes question, you know, whether everything should get paid, or whether this idea that money you know, like how do paid, or whether this idea that money you know, like how do, how do we work this out?
Kendra:But, acknowledging that, the value of things, um, and again, I think that it's this both to me it's really this, both, it's really acknowledging them publicly, systemically, being willing to talk about them. And then there is this internal work, like I I remember when I had my first child and, um, I was out to tea with a dear friend who you know, total feminist, all the things, like awesome woman, and just made an offhanded comment about how it was like so great that my husband was supporting me and it kind of stuck with me. And it wasn't until a little later I was like, wait, who's supporting who? He only gets to go to work because I sit and nurse our child for hours, like the hours that I spent in that rocking chair supported him to be able to go out in the world, to have people write checks that had his name on them. And so I think we have to do the inner work of knowing our own value and our own power. And also there's public work to be done.
Jen:Kendra, you're so great, this is so great, so much. There's so much Feminine leadership versus female leadership, and I think these are really related concepts to me. You know, I'm reflecting a lot right now on A what is leadership? I don't know where we want to start with this conversation, but as it relates to having access to our own power or power in the community, power in our work, power in what we're doing, but then also how we lead in and through that, so can you speak to feminine versus female leadership? Slash power.
Kendra:Yeah, I mean, again, this is like not even the cliff notes in some sense, because it's so much of this I think does needs to get parsed out in real life and in actual practice. And but to recognize some of those polarities right, in terms of, um, kind of a point and direct style of leadership, or we're going this way, or this is the structure and this is the way we're going to do it, or a little bit more linear, um bearing, you know, holding the flag and marching onward. I mean I'm being a little dramatic, but in terms of a certain kind of masculine leadership, I mean you can see women that do that and sometimes that's fantastic.
Jen:I feel like it's wartime. There's a book I'm blanking on the name wartime leadership versus something else in this kind of. I used to use that example when I was leading the office that I'm in but I was botched the end of it like Braveheart. I was like, oh, you know the guy, like the Braveheart guy, he's the end and he's got the flag. And one of my good buddies came up to me afterwards and like I had not, like I'm leading with the flag, but I'd kind of paralleled myself in some weird way to this leader on the movie and he's like you know what happens to me at the end of the movie, right, I was like what he's like? He gets beheaded. I was like shoot. But anyways, it feels like that kind of leadership. You know it comes in handy for certain scenarios where you need a like.
Kendra:Here's what we need clarity and I would say, even not wartime, but there's a real like, and this is, I mean, I think all good leadership will always weave both. But again, I mean there was a whole. I think I originally wrote that and I've kind of adjusted it as we go, but part of it came through when there was that whole wave of people wearing like the future is female, and then people shifted to the future is feminine and I'm like no, neither one. I mean the future is all of us and the future is wholeness, and wholeness doesn't mean balance. And of course, there's a truth to what they were saying which is what I was trying to say in that too which is like we are skewed towards both the masculine and the male.
Kendra:So in one sense, like do we need a female president just to have a female president? Yes, like kind of we do, we can't. And this is like the whole weird DEI debate is like no, we shouldn't do that because she's a woman. I mean, in some way we should, just because she's a woman. But also we cannot imagine, like we can't really like in your real brain we can't think that actually all the men have been more qualified than all the women for this. That's not possible, that's not possible. And it's the same way. You can't go like all the white people can't have been more qualified than all the black people. That's just not possible. So is underrepresented because there are fewer female bodies talking publicly in certain ways, and that doesn't inherently mean we're going to have more feminine leadership which is more we-based.
Kendra:And some of that is literally hormonal, yeah, yeah, you know, but there is, and even even in a small sense, like if I look at me and my team, that there are places to really, you know, get curious and ask questions and want to hear from other people and make sure that we're all included. And then the fact is it's my business and it would be like negligent of me to not be like and this is where we're going. I'd be like, well, where do you think we should go? And we'll, you know, that's just not, it's not true. So so for me to be like, well, I just want to lead from my feminine would be kind of negligent in the role that I'm in Now.
Kendra:There are times when that has real beauty and being more in the evocative side is also beautiful and valuable and creates other possibilities in other moments and even with clients. You know so and I think we see that too, like as a as a teacher, a guide or a coach, that it would be negligent for me to be like well, I just want to. I just want to go wherever the energy's going. It's kind of like well, they came to me because I'm going to hold a little structure, but it's also not like well, I'm going to say what your path is.
Jen:And we're just going to go there, you know, because I see more clearly that these things, it's a week.
Kendra:You know the power of is vast. You know massively rewarding in our lives.
Speaker 3:It doesn't get paid for all that often oh no, I know how do we do it.
Kendra:How do we get paid for it, Kendra? Well, I don't know, question you know, whether everything, things should get paid, or, yeah, whether this idea that you know, like how do, how do we work this out? But acknowledging the value of things, and again I think that it's this both to me, it's really this both. It's really acknowledging them publicly, systemically, being willing to talk about them. And then there is this internal work, Like I I remember when I had my first child and I was out to tea with a dear friend who you know total feminist, all the things, like awesome woman, and just made an offhanded comment about how it was like so great that my husband was supporting me and it kind of stuck with me and yeah, Um gosh, it's yeah. And again, I think it's tricky and it's so, it's really it's beautiful to imagine. For me, anyway, I go like great, so she can talk about that, and then you might read it and you might incorporate things, and then that might be.
Kendra:And then I think there is also a place to keep kind of talking about things but to keep expanding them. So I mean one of the examples I would give around men and again it's more the masculine is what I would say. But there is a way I do think this plays out for many men is that, culturally, I would say, we have boundaries wrong. Like boundaries are actually a masculine. They're masculine Whoever's holding the boundary. That's a masculine piece that they're holding.
Kendra:But culturally we've put it that women are the ones who are supposed to have a boundary somewhere and then get their value by going as far as they can, whether that's sexually or in business, or like to push as far as we can go is a rewarded trait in men, and so, again, this is one of those things that I would love to see like a global shift in my lifetime, If I have any way of interjecting this in is like the power that men have to be the one that holds the boundary Actually, to have a sense of what is what, like what creates the most life, love, freedom for everyone and then to hold the boundary there, even if someone else is saying they want to go farther, sort of like, oh no, we're going to stay here Like that's a what, what an incredible wall, what incredible leadership to actually say this is, this is where there's the most life and maybe we can try over here, but then we're going to.
Kendra:If it's not actually more kind of freedom for everyone, then we're going to. If it's not actually more kind of freedom for everyone, then we're going to pull it back to where it is and to be the one that is feeling into that and then holding something in that way again, whether it's sort of sexually or like business wise, yeah.
Jen:That's just feels so good to hear.
Jen:Like everything in me is like, yes, I mean and I'm thinking in terms of leadership right now, with business and politically and just the thought of men standing up and holding the boundary and feeling into that space and women can do that too into that space and and women can do that too. But if we're speaking to just the topic that you're talking about, about boundaries versus pushing as far as we can go to have men that would stand just like strong legs and be like here's, here's the boundary, oof, yeah, that feels good, yeah.
Kendra:I mean, and I mean it is kind of a tangent we don't have to go there, but because humans sort of have this broader way that we're expressing. But that same quote about coherence. At the same time I saw that quote, I saw a piece that was around how bison would protect the most vulnerable, and my guess is that that was largely like large males on the outside, you know, females, probably maybe like nursing females, and then the young at the very center or the elders right In some configuration, and to me that was another way of looking at that. Coherence, too, is just okay as things are like this. We may not change everything immediately and have it all in harmony so how do we yeah?
Kendra:I mean again, I think there's some larger ways to look at that. And then there's also like okay, well, great, I mean who in my actual community or my local neighborhood might need more, or who might know who needs more, might need more, or who might know who needs more. And to me, this also does speak a little bit to the leadership I think is recognizing our different roles in different circumstances. Like there's a woman in my community who's just a great organizer and she does this incredibly grassroots organization every holiday season. But she does it in other realms too, where she just like no, she's tapped into who needs to be supported around the holidays, which families are not going to have, you know, presents or a tree or a meal or, and she literally puts it out to the community and she's like who wants to?
Kendra:You know it's mutual aid rather than like and if you have a little more, you're like great. And then she goes like okay, they've got a, you know a 12 year old, a 10 year old and eight year old. These are the things they want. And then you know this is what the mom needs and you just go buy it and you give it to the woman who's organizing like all wrapped up and then she just makes sure everyone gets it. My role in that is that I often have a little more to get like I have some time and I have some money. I don't need to be the leader, I don't need to try to do what she's doing.
Jen:She does it better than I could do. I feel like that's speaking to something that I, something else that I saw you write, which is that you are working to help people connect to just who they are at their core, to that inner compass that you know. If, if, as we started this conversation, if people are like, well, what do I do? Or maybe the more um advantageous question is, what role do I play, that that connection to a true sense of self can help bring an answer to that, to that. So how do you help people guide them? What do you see that's keeping people from being able to tune into their own compass, and how do we find that?
Kendra:Yeah, that's such a great question and I really love the way you rephrased it as what is my role, because that does put us. I mean, this actually speaks to answering your question. So what is my role is a much more in the moment question actually speaks to answering your question. So what is my role is a much more in the moment question. I mean we can go abstract about it because we're so good at that. But it tends to want to put something after what is my role? Like what is my role at Thanksgiving dinner? What is my role in my family? What is my role in my community? There tends to be a little or in this particular, so what is my role in this interaction? And that draws us back to the present moment and again, I'll never be the person saying it's all just about just being totally in the present moment. Yeah, but it also kind of is.
Kendra:And the more that we're here, I would say is the more that we are actually responsive to what is needed right now, and the more that we're away from that, like the farther out we get, the more challenging it is to respond in the moment get, the more challenging it is to respond in the moment, and so, of course, we need some planning. Or we look at like, what are the big things we want to do, whether they be personal, professional, political, whatever you know. There are bigger things and we kind of go like, okay, well, that might need this or I might need to plan in this way, or, but there is also something that goes okay and things are exactly the way they are right now. So what is the gesture I make in the like, what is the first step even to these bigger plans? What is actually the very first thing? So this is a little different than the compass, but there is a piece that I do with people a lot which is about like okay, there's something you want to do or create or move towards, or you know, you have a vision. So what is the very first step?
Kendra:People almost always give me a very first step that either actually has like three steps before it or is like a whole thing, like we'll be like what's the one tiny thing? And they'll be like, okay, I need like a new morning routine. I'm like, okay, that's like 10 things. New morning routine is not, that's not one thing. Or they go oh, I need to. You know, I don't know, file for a grant, I'm like, okay, that's actually not the first step. You know, the first step might be to find the grant, or like you already have it? Okay, then download that document. That's the first step. So bringing people back to doesn't mean we don't take action, it means we go.
Kendra:What is actually the very first thing, which is that responsive quality, responsive to if I, if I haven't chosen the grant to apply for, then that's the first step. But if I have, then this step is to go to the web. You know. So it changes based on circumstances.
Kendra:If I am applying for school and I get in, my next step is different than if I don't get in, and so having this like, oh, there's, there's, uh, the compass is is probably more about values and a way of being. So we're orienting like okay, if this matters to me, I will find a way to do what matters to me, whether things are responding in my favor or not, whether somebody says yes to a date with me, whether I get pregnant when I want to get pregnant, whether I get the job I want to get pregnant, whether I get the job I want to get like, whether I, you know, if it's a yes, my response is different than if it's a no, but the kind of the compass tells me that I can always orient to that which matters to me, and I do think it requires more silence, more, maybe quiet, more than silence. But it requires a little bit more quiet than most of us give ourselves most of the time.
Jen:Yeah, I mean, you use the phrase and I've heard it and said it myself just even that idea of feeling into something. So to feel into anything, it's quiet, it's space, it's awareness. It's enough to be able to. Would you agree with that? It's that kind of enough stillness to feel into what's true in the response for that moment?
Kendra:Yeah, I mean, I do think that for most of us, slowing down is really important. Sometimes that can become its own habit, like I. Just I do think that for most of us, slowing down is really important. Sometimes that can become its own habit, like I just, everything has to go really slow. And I loved I had this one client who used the phrase um, moving at the speed of trust. Oh, that's good. So I don't know where that came from, I'll just say Sarah Johnstone said it to me. Um, but I love it and it helped me because it's also like there are times when if I was trusting, I would move faster If it was the speed of trust. And there's other times that, like the speed of trust is like, oh yeah, I trust enough to slow down, I trust enough to say if it's for me, it'll be there tomorrow. And then other times that it's like, oh, I trust enough I can take that action and even if it's wrong, I'll figure it out Like then there'll be the next move, right?
Jen:Well, I know you talked earlier about the power and surrender and the trust and surrender, and the trust in patience, and the waiting for the waiting for whatever, for the next season, for the next step of clarity. But you know, instead of rushing through because I'm lacking trust, that's I move at the speed of trust. Oh my gosh, that's so good, so good. Okay, as a woman, to embody your pleasure, live your purpose and know your power is a revolutionary act. I'm here for the revolution. These are your words. Obviously You're like damn, that's good. Who said that? Like it's?
Kendra:you, you said it.
Jen:As a woman, to embody your pleasure, live your purpose and know your power. It's a revolutionary act and I'm here for the revolution. Talk to me about what that means.
Kendra:Well, I do think that this is. You know, there are things that we have said already in our conversation that are connected to this that there I remember kind of the seeds of that came to me and I was leading an in-person workshop and it was. It was again. It was the kind of both and of, yes, women's embodied pleasure is feared and demonized, like let's not pretend, like that's not true. However, are we going to deny ourselves the experience of our own pleasure just because some, somebody might misuse it, they might see it and kind of like get a little gross about it, or like, yes, that kind of gaze, it's not to say that's not real and in some way, that's our power, too, is to know like, this is too big, too powerful, too pure for you to corrupt. Your gaze doesn't corrupt this, and I refuse to deny myself that experience just because you might see it and take it the wrong way.
Kendra:Again, it's always really important to note there are, like actual dangerous circumstances and there are actually women in the world who are truly, you know, need to be more careful than other women. I would also say most of the women that I'm talking to most of the time are mostly a lot safer than we feel, lot safer than we feel. And so that's part of the revolution is to not as an obligation. It's not like now you must do this, but it's to go. Oh, I am a woman who actually has a fair bit of safety in my life, and so where am I willing to be that possibility model? Where am I willing to and not just for other women, like I'm going to change the lives of the men that I refuse to shrink around?
Jen:Oh, so good. So I want to break this down a little bit, if that's okay. So embody, just embody your pleasure explicitly. Are you speaking to sexual pleasure or any pleasure?
Kendra:Yes, and and again, I will say that, like I think each woman I've seen this so much is like some women get so focused on sexual pleasure, right, that even the idea of like a self-pleasure practice can only mean orgasm. And then it's really valuable to expand that out and be like where else is there? Like when you smell that you know the trees are starting to bloom and it's just, and I'm walking down the trail and there might be a moment of just like oh, my God, you know, and somebody might see me in that right, or hear me go. Like, oh, what is that smell, you know where, where is this wafting from. Or to like enjoy ice cream or steak or you know whatever it is you enjoy. And then some women are so afraid of sexual pleasure that they're kind of like oh yeah, I get it, it's pleasure in all things, and by that they mean like. So I don't really have to go into like sexual pleasure to be seen or to feel my own body sexually.
Jen:So yes and Okay. And when we started this conversation, or this piece of the conversation, you said that our pleasure. How did you put it? You didn't say our pleasure is our power, but in essence, yeah, like it's a threat, that it's scary to some people. What do you mean by that?
Kendra:Yeah, I mean I think a lot of things.
Kendra:One is literally just to be in our own bodies in the present moment. I think that's where we will find our power and it's also where, when we're really there, we kind of go like, yeah, no, you can't tell me how to do that, we're less governable and so that's dangerous. And then there is so much power in sexuality and I do think that female sexuality not that male sexuality doesn't have a lot of expansion too, and some of this I get a little concerned that it can just be kind of the new age version of trying to differentiate. Like I think there's probably a lot of expansion that we just haven't tapped into. It's pretty vast.
Kendra:And I do sometimes just think about I think I saw like a I don't know a quote on social media or something that was like hey, people like you have to like look around at all the women like you all came from a woman, or here's a fun. It was something like here's a fun fact about women. We made all of you I think, yeah, you know, and that is connected to sexuality, to sexuality.
Jen:Now, obviously not every woman will wants to or should like birth children and that is just fine, but to recognize that biologically this is connected, the creation power sort of too, yeah, and that's kind of enormous.
Kendra:And I think that the culture again I don't just want to say men, or even the patriarchy, like the larger over culture can feel and that's a mystery too Like this is, this is mysterious power, this is power that we can't control, and so it is something that then we try to suppress. So as much as we can sort of suppress box in, codify shame, you know, as much as we can create kind of boundaries around this, the easier it is to control people.
Jen:Yeah, the way I've thought about that, the power and sexuality, is just through my own experience in part. But even like I've been down this Mary Magdalene path and this sort of the sacred feminine and what's the connection in all of this, trying to bring some connection to it but really feeling like there's we find our power in our body. It is power from within rather than power from without, and so, whether it's sexually or otherwise, the ability to tune in and not shame allows me to tune into or access all of the kinds of power beyond the sexual power. So it's all, it's a bit of a portal or like a way to one of the ways.
Jen:I guess I don't I don't know if you'd agree with any of this, but I'm trying to find words for it. But I feel like in the shaming of sexuality we've we've, at least in my experience it's cut us off from the desire to go into our bodies, period, end of story. So then we have a hard time tapping into that inner compass and that intuition because we've disassociated from our bodies and moved up into our heads, and so that I like the word you used ungovernable, like that, when we get into that wild or ungovernable part of that. We're not trying to control either that. It's an untamed version. Yeah.
Kendra:Yes, I think that's a really important part, you know, like of um and and often sort of missed actually the way that it can be scary to our own selves. And again it's kind of the not one or the other. It's like, yes, actually there are external forces that are trying to control you or are judging you or are potentially harmful, but when we put it all out there, it's like we miss that part where it's oh yeah, also, this is untamed to me, yeah, and that, and that is powerful.
Jen:What's the revolution Kendra?
Kendra:What is the revolution? I mean it's all these pieces, like, I think, and it is, it's, it's hopefully larger than this and it is also individual and and then together. I think there's something so powerful about women coming together and being in these ways together. Um, and we didn't speak to purpose as much. I mean, I think they just weave together. But part of what I find tricky is that the conversation around purpose has mostly been talked about for men and even in the polarity world, and I don't think these are exactly, um, opposing, but they sure seem that way.
Kendra:Sometimes is like the question will be like you know, what's a man's? How does a man want to give his purpose and how does a woman want to give her love? Uh, again, how we want to give our love. We could just call that purpose. But part of it, part of it is that that's so often and it is relational. I mean, that's the thing it does come into. The relational Purpose can be relational. But I don't think our love is just relational in the human realm, or certainly not just in the romantic sexual realm. I mean, how do I want to give my love, like to this whole world in a relational sense? That's purpose. That's what we're talking about, yes, and but a lot of times women get cut off from then the idea of that they really have purpose, or get sucked into the idea that that, like their children, are their purpose. And I am personally of the mind that no person can ever be our purpose, not even our children. It's just greater than that.
Jen:Is there more on purpose that you want to say, that you didn't say yet?
Kendra:I mean, that's the big part of it. I do, again, I don't see it as much these days, like I think there really is a bit of a maturation coming to some of this polarity world. I started the polarity world in like 1999. So I'm kind of like okay, great, you know, let's just see where we're at now. But I have seen enough people not even, I mean, I've really seen people suffer for this where, like, the idea is that the relationship should be a woman's purpose, that her man is her purpose, or that her home and her family is her purpose. And then I've just seen everybody suffer Like she's not happy. He's not happy because somehow she's supposed to be happy, because he's working, so she, the relationship can be her purpose, she supposedly can do whatever she wants, but she's not happy. So why is she not happy? You know, like and I'm like, no, we all like, we all have deep purpose in the world and when we pretend like that's not true.
Jen:I think we're deeply unfulfilled. This may be getting too far into the weeds, Just stop me, if it is that I was talking to somebody the other day about purpose. I grew up in kind of an evangelical Christian I don't know if you heard of Rick Warren's purpose driven life and I've gotten sort of turned off to that idea that we have a purpose that's only associated to vocation. But then, ironically or not, that I'm on the last five years I've been like what's my Dharma? It's the same, it's the same question in essence. To me now, looking back, it's like what am I uniquely wired, skilled, created to do that intersects with um, with what lights me up and brings me joy and then serves the whole? Is that how, like, how? You know it's easy to be like. Well, what is our purpose? And I think people might instantly go to job or do I do?
Jen:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you say, when you're talking about purpose, what do you mean? Is the question I?
Kendra:mean, I definitely mean more like what you're talking about with Dharma. I did a little bit. I think I called it the bread and butter of purpose, and I was basically saying, like butter is the Dharma, but you can put butter on lots of things. So, like butter, you know like your delivery system could be mashed potatoes, it could be toast, it could be broccoli, it could be rice. You know like we can put butter, but butter like, essentially, like we have a Dharma and we can offer that, we can put that on anything. And then we, but a lot of time the conversation just stops with the delivery system, like, what is my purpose? So what is my role? What is my purpose? So what is my role? What is my job? What am I going to do with this? And again, recognizing that money is important in the culture we live in, but then it also gets attached to like and can I make money with that? And then it's just so heavy, you know, so heavy. You know we're hanging a lot of coats on that one coat rack.
Jen:That's been my life the last year and I finally was like, listen, I'm going to go make money over here, yeah, I'm going to do my Dharma here, and maybe they'll cross at some point and maybe they won't, but I, I was so working so hard to like figure it all out and I'm like I just have to live right now and and um, yeah, not let it get so heavy. I appreciate that, yeah, okay, is there anything else on your heart or mind that we haven't talked about? That would be important to share today would be important to share today.
Kendra:Gosh, I don't know. It's been such a beautiful conversation. I love the different pieces that you brought in and then where that we got to go with that, and I think this is also a lot, you know. I mean one of the things I do like to say to people again, it sort of came from teaching more in person and then you come to the end and people are like you know, what am I going to take away? I'm going to take everything. You know, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that, and I'm going to make sure I have this daily practice and I want to take everything home and I, um, I like to say, you know, practices are best when done daily, but they're even better when you actually do them. Oh, my gosh, yeah.
Kendra:And so for anybody listening whether it's about this conversation or it's about whatever you're getting lit up by I would I generally encourage people like to take one thing like what's the one thing? Maybe you get two if you're like super high achiever, but really, what's the one thing that you could put into some kind of implementable way in your life? Like what's the? And sometimes that can just be creating more space to like think, meditate, dream, percolate on, Like, if there's one thing that you were like holy shit, that's amazing, then really stick with that, Like journal on it, Talk about it with other people, Make a practice, See if it works. Try a different practice, you know, but like do that one thing.
Jen:I love that. The thing that's coming to mind for me from this conversation is moving at the speed of trust and just what the world that we're living in right now. For me, that's been so forefront, and I don't mean to make this conversation about politics, but I'm really trying to figure out how to navigate and live in the world, like to be connected to what's happening, but that, and with all of life, to move at the speed of trust and to feel that inhale and exhale and not be rigidly moving forward or rigid or sitting back on my haunches. Is that the right yeah?
Kendra:I mean, I think that's so beautiful, right, that to recognize that either one of those can be kind of a habit or a response. And I also I just want to say, especially related to the world, that moving at the speed of trust could be different than like just trust that everything will work out. Yes, you like trust that my response is valuable, right? Trust that whatever I'm feeling about this actually has wisdom, and so move at the speed of that. And I think that really brings it back to the inhale exhale you were referencing again, which is that it's not just like, oh, trust the universe, or trust the other person, or or even only trust myself, right that there actually is this dynamic I don't know flow, or there's something. Yeah.
Jen:Yeah, yeah, trusting that. For me it's really been day to day. It's been, oh gosh, I'll wake up with kind of a journal thing or something I'm going to put in my newsletter on my mind and I'm like, am I really going to say this, am I really going to put this out here? And in that moment, coming back to center and going, I'm trusting that this is the time now to do this thing and not, and then the next day, feeling like I really feel like I should do something. Have I done enough? Have I done enough that what you were speaking about? And then pausing and going I don't need to do more. I need to move at the speed of trust for what the moment is bringing forward is maybe the way I'm trying to moments that'll just shift.
Kendra:So I mean it sounds like you're already doing it and now it's like taking it a little more consciously and being like oh, now I do that on purpose, yeah, yeah.
Jen:I love that, Kendra. If people want to get ahold of you, where can they find you?
Kendra:Well, I would say the easiest way is my website, and it's just Kendra Kunovcom. I'm Kendra Kunov everywhere, and that's a pretty uncommon name. So you can find me on Instagram, on Facebook, uh, and then my website, and, and the thing that I thought of while we were talking, that might be, you know, the most relevant to some of the things we talked about. I mean, I'll just say on my website there's a lot of resources. I have a lot of blogs. A lot of them have videos associated with them. Like you know, have fun. You'll probably be able to tell pretty quickly if I'm for you or if I'm not for you. But if the conversation around pleasure, purpose and power piqued anyone's interest, I am teaching an in-person five-day retreat in Northern California in September of 2025. So you can find that on my website and I am super excited about it. It's a gorgeous retreat center. I love these topics. I love the way that they weave together. I think doing that work in person, you know, together is so valuable. So check it out.
Jen:That's exciting. I hope to be there, kendra. Thank you so much for taking your time today and your commitment to the work that you're doing. It's been. You know how. I started this conversation literally a year ago. You are a one of the people that I, when I started the podcast, was like oh my gosh, if I could have Kendra on my podcast this would be really this a dream, and the maturation in the space that you've worked in, and what's being called out of you or or brought forth in society, and just your.
Jen:It's just been beautiful to just look at your work and see, see your evolution, I guess, to what's happening. Is that right?
Kendra:Does that resonate with you in terms of yeah, I mean, and I love your reflection of that I mean thank you so much. I'm really I'm touched and I I hope, I hope that's true. I heard Malcolm Gladwell say in an interview that people will point to something he said and be like well, you've changed. And he was like I hope so. I hope that my ideas are evolving, yeah. Yeah.
Jen:Yeah, that's so good, it's beautiful and it's encouraging, and it's it's been a light to me as an example of how to continue to do the work within and relate to the community and the people around and evolve. That's what this is. It's about evolution. So thank you.
Kendra:Well, thank you.
Jen:It's really a is it's? About evolution so thank you.
Kendra:Well, thank you, it's really a pleasure. It's a pleasure.
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