Breakfast of Choices
Everyone has stories of transformation. And some of them include moments, or years of intense adversity, a time when it felt like there was no hope. This podcast, "Breakfast of Choices," holds space for people to share their true, raw and unedited stories of overcoming extreme struggles, like addiction, mental illness, incarceration, domestic violence, suicide, emotional and physical abuse, toxic family structures, relationships, and more. Trauma comes in so many forms.
Every week, as a certified Peer Recovery Support Specialist, Recovery Coach, Life Transformation coach and your host, I will jump right into the lives of people who have faced these types of adversity and CHOSE to make choices to better themselves. We'll talk about everything they went through on their journey from Rock Bottom to Rock Solid.
Through hearing each guest's story of resilience, my hope is that we'll all be inspired to wake up every single day and make our own "Breakfast of Choices". More importantly, that we'll understand we have the POWER to do it.
When someone shares their story, it can be unbelievably healing. And it can be just what someone else needs to hear at that exact moment to simply keep moving forward. So I hope you can find "that one little thing that sticks," along with hope and encouragement to just keep taking it one day at a time.
And now let me be the first to welcome you to the "Breakfast of Choices" community, a non-judgemental zone where we learn from, lean on and celebrate one another. Because the opposite of addiction is "connection", and we are all in this together.
If you would like to tell your story, I sure would love to listen. Please email me at Breakfastofchoices@gmail.com.
Respects,
Jo Summers.
Breakfast of Choices
Healing Addictions Through Connection and Community- with guest Matt House
What if your greatest battles could become your most powerful stories of transformation? Join us as we explore Matt House's remarkable journey from Longview, Texas, through the depths of addiction, and into a life of recovery and renewal. Raised by a hardworking mother and seeking acceptance from the wrong circles, Matt candidly shares how the social environment, rather than the substances themselves, pulled him into a destructive path. His narrative offers an unflinching look at the emotional turmoil and legal troubles that accompanied his addiction, providing invaluable insights for anyone facing similar challenges.
Matt's story takes us from the chaotic college towns of Oklahoma to the structured support of the treatment court during the COVID-19 pandemic. In this episode, discover how Matt embraced the opportunity for a second chance, choosing recovery over incarceration. We discuss the pivotal role of support systems like AA, NA, and the Oxford House community in his journey toward redemption. Matt's experiences underscore the importance of self-awareness, personal growth, and the relentless pursuit of a fulfilling life beyond addiction.
Finally, the conversation turns to breaking the stigma surrounding addiction and recovery. Matt and Jo are both committed to being a beacon of hope for those struggling with shame and guilt, emphasizing the power of reaching out for help. They highlight the resources and communities available to anyone ready to embark on a journey to sobriety, reinforcing the message that there is always someone listening and ready to assist. This episode is a testament to the strength of human resilience and the profound possibility of transformation.
From Rock Bottom to Rock Solid.
We all have them...every single day, we wake up, we have the chance to make new choices.
We have the power to make our own daily, "Breakfast of Choices"
Resources and ways to connect:
Facebook: Jo Summers
Instagram: @Summersjol
Facebook Support: Chance For Change Women’s circle
Website: Breakfastofchoices.com
Urbanedencmty.com (Oklahoma Addiction and Recovery Resources) Treatment, Sober Living, Meetings. Shout out to the founder, of this phenomenal website... Kristy Da Rosa!
National suicide prevention and crisis, hotline number 988
National domestic violence hotline:
800–799–7233
National hotline for substance abuse, and addiction:
844–289–0879
National mental health hotline:
866–903–3787
National child health and child abuse hotline:
800–422-4453 (1.800.4.A.CHILD)
CoDa.org
12. Step recovery program for codependency.
National Gambling Hotline 800-522-4700
Good morning, welcome to Breakfast of Choices live stories of transformation from rock bottom to rock solid. I'm your host, jo Summers, and I've got with me here today a very awesome gentleman named Matt House that I met through the Virtue Center. It was a hope and healing event about opioid crisis and Matt was actually on the panel. There was a discussion, judge Tupper was there through the drug court and Matt was on the panel and I spoke with him after it was over and he was gracious enough to accept my invitation to become on the podcast today. Matt, I'm so happy that you're here today and I'm just really thankful and grateful to you for taking your time to come on. I know you're a really busy guy. You got a lot going on, so thank you for spending your Saturday with me today. I appreciate it very much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you doing good this morning.
Speaker 2:Yes, ma'am, I'm doing good, staying busy trying to change lives and keep my own life on track.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and we talked a little bit before we ever hit record and get comfortable. Talk about a few things. Matt's got some great things to say, he's got some really good words of wisdom and I'm going to go ahead and let Matt get started telling his story this morning and just kind of how it all started for him.
Speaker 2:Okay, so my story starts in Longview, texas. I was born 1985, so that makes me really young, right? Yes, yes was an alcoholic, but besides that, my mom had three boys. I had two older brothers and she worked numerous jobs to provide us the life that we deserved. She was always working, making sure that we had what we needed. We never had to want for anything. Now, that doesn't mean that we grew up rich and with a silver spoon in our mouth, you know. She definitely made us appreciate hard work and taking care of ourselves and, you know, doing chores around the house, basically preparing us for life.
Speaker 2:Once we got older and moved on, you know. You know and I never really realized until I went to treatment and talked to some counselors and stuff just how traumatic not having a solid father figure in your life can be. It was, you know. It was, I guess you could say, normalized. You know it's not unnormal to not have a father in your life nowadays, and that's not to say that I didn't have role models in my life. My brother did everything he could. He was 12 years older than me, so that's a pretty big age gap. You know so he was. Yeah, I mean, he was trying to live his life and tagging his little brother along with him. You know, probably isn't always the coolest thing to do, but he did, you know he did and he tried to mold me and point me in the right direction and he set a great example.
Speaker 2:And growing up in a, you know, southern Pentecostal slash, non-denominational church, I had plenty of role models around me that were there to show me the correct way and life was great. I was everything from, you know, youth pastor to Sunday school teacher. You know there was times where we thought I would go on to become a minister and things of that sort. You know I went and helped some individuals start some churches and do things like that. So my childhood, like I, had all the morals they were instilled in me at a young age. You know, right from wrong, I should say, making the right decision, knowing which way to go in life. But 15, I'd say probably 15 years old, you know. But 15, I'd say probably 15 years old.
Speaker 2:You know I started working a job, ran into the wrong people, you know, I think for me, you know, just being honest, living that Christian lifestyle and it's not that it was a bad thing. Again, I'm an addict, so I'm different. I feel like addicts think differently about things and stuff. I'm different. I feel like addicts think differently about things and stuff. I think the life of what that side of it offered was enticing to me. The friends, the going out, the spending time out. You know, probably a lot of it was the acceptance that I felt when I was around those people. You know, being involved, always having somebody to go hang out with, whatever Granted we were doing the wrong things.
Speaker 2:But at a young age, you know, being involved, always having somebody to go hang out with, whatever Granted we were doing the wrong things, but at a young age, you know I desired that. And so I remember probably the first time I had ever done anything smoked or drank or anything was at a birthday party and we were smoking and drinking and stuff. And, like I said, I can't say that it was so much the marijuana and alcohol that attracted me, it was the belonging, it was the social environment that I really was attracted to. But you know, like we were talking about earlier, well, if my father was that way, there's a good chance I could be that way or this, and that you know it was never really a problem in our household, so I wasn't even aware of any type of addiction issues or anything like that. You know what I mean. Um, so I never considered it being a problem, probably until I started getting in trouble with the law. Considered it being a problem, probably until I started getting in trouble with the law, you know.
Speaker 2:Then then, of course, it becomes, becomes a problem and becomes an issue. You know, and, like I said, you know, my my brother was was very well known in the in the town that we were in, as well as my mom, and so a lot of fame and guilt starts forming when your name's in the newspaper for getting arrested. It doesn't matter how old you are or what it's for there's a certain sense of failure associated with that at that young age. And then, so what does an addict do? Well, they start coping and coding their feelings and emotions with more drugs and alcohol, because now I'm feeling less than, and I feel like I failed my family. Well, my friends over here are still accepting of me, so I'm going to go over here where I feel accepted and feel like I'm not doing anything wrong, you know, and so that just really just pushed me even further into the addiction Again. Running around with the wrong people is never a good situation. You hear that growing up, you know birds of a feather flock together. But I was young.
Speaker 1:I used to hear it all the time your friends are going to get you in trouble. Your friends are this, your friends are that, and it's like you'd get mad because people were talking about your friends. Right, those are my people and you know you took up for your friends and I see that even in my son who's 13. You know, I just told you about that. You don't leave a brother behind and you know that mentality and that doesn't really work for teenagers, does it? When you start saying things like that about their friends and stuff? That truly doesn't work.
Speaker 2:No, it doesn't. It really just pushes them more towards it. Let's be honest. You know, mom telling me one thing and I'm like, well, I'm going to do the complete opposite.
Speaker 1:You know mom telling me one thing and I'm like well, I'm going to do the complete opposite.
Speaker 2:You know, and I feel like that's just how it goes with young people. You know that's what, like we were talking about earlier trying to kind of reach younger people nowadays and catch the generation before it gets out of control and before it gets out of hand. We can give them all the information and show them what it did to us and show them what we had to go through, because, look, I mean, you know it's a double-edged sword. Can I go back and change my life and live a better life and be a business mogul and this and that? Like, yeah, I mean that looks great.
Speaker 2:But at the same time, if I were to go back and change my life and my decisions, I wouldn't have the story I have today. That could potentially help the next addict and help the next individual. So I have to be okay with the decisions I made and understand that my higher power put me in this situation for a reason, absolutely. I went through a lot of pain and I put my family through a lot of pain and we're still working through some of that, but at the end of the day it happened, I'm here working through some of that, but at the end of the day it happened. I'm here, so we have to make the best of it, and the story I was given and the life that I've lived is for a purpose.
Speaker 2:You know, and so I'm going to make it for a purpose anyways. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:It is. You know. You turn your pain into purpose and that's when you start changing things, when you start acknowledging right.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Do your steps and you're acknowledging and you're doing your inventory and you're like you know what I can do this, I can make a change. And it is about choices right, it's about making new choices every day.
Speaker 2:So you started kind of 15-ish and then you were partying a little bit, hanging around, the wrong crowd, started getting in trouble at some point, yeah, um, yeah, I mean, you know, the first interaction I had with the, with the police, was possession of marijuana. Um, I can't remember the exact charge, but I think it was like theft from the city for whatever. We had stolen a stop sign and, yeah, and the cops found the stop sign in my car and, um, you know, and, and, and that was a big deal. That was the first time I'd ever gotten in trouble. I really just, I was still really young, probably 16, 17, something like that so just a slap on the wrist and a letter to the city. That I was sorry, you know.
Speaker 2:But you know, and my family, you know, being religious and just and being from a good upbringing, was not OK with that, and rightfully so, you know. I mean, nobody wants their son or their brother getting in trouble with the law at a young age and looking like they're going in the wrong direction already, you know, when they've been brought up to do the right things and make the right decisions and now they're veering off the other way. So I can only imagine there was disappointment, fear, regret. I mean there's no telling what my family was going through. You know what I mean. That's their story, but I can imagine it was a lot you know. But of course at that age I didn't. It's hard to say that I didn't care. There was just something else that I was trying to feel that was at the time and for many years was more important to me than than and I feel horrible saying that, but that's just the truth of addiction and that's the life that we live sometimes, you know.
Speaker 2:But, yes, so and again, the progressive, the progressiveness of the disease. It never stops with just marijuana and alcohol. It moves over to cocaine and pills and, you know, harder drugs. And then that's what it did for me. You know it stopped being enough with just smoking and drinking. I wanted more, you know, and new things come out on the streets and, oh, we want to try this and we want to try that. And it just never stops being enough and you know it leads into a lot of criminal activity.
Speaker 2:I was on felony five years felony probation at the age of probably was 18. I mean, I was still pretty young when I caught those serious charges for burglary of habitation. And I know again, that was another shocker for my mom because I'm out here running the streets lying and manipulating, you know, not being truthful with her and my family. So I can only imagine that you know those thought processes, the thought process for them. But I caught those charges and didn't do all that well on those, you know I finally completed them, you know, I think when I completed that probation, finally the next day pretty much the next day or real close to it I decided to move to Oklahoma.
Speaker 2:Some other things had happened in between there you close to it I decided to move to Oklahoma. Some other things had happened in between there. I had, quote unquote, ran away to Oklahoma from Texas. My mom had met my stepdad and I was really not happy with him coming into our lives because my brother being 12 years older than me, he had moved out when I was still really young to do his own thing, and so it was just me and my mom. I was man of the house, whatever you want to call it. You know I remember deleting some of the messages on the answer machine when he would call, because she'd be like, wow, that's really weird, did he call? And I'm like no, I don't know why he's not calling, but you know just a lot of.
Speaker 1:yeah, I wasn't trying to hear all that you know I wasn't trying to hear all that.
Speaker 2:You know who is this guy coming around Like who do you think he is? That's fun. And he turned out to be a wonderful individual for my mom, for our family. He cared about us tremendously and he would give the shirt off of his back to help me and my brothers in any way that he could. I just was young, you know I mean, I wasn't trying to hear that at the time, just was young. You know what I mean. I wasn't trying to hear that at the time.
Speaker 2:So I again ran away to Oklahoma, breaking my mom's heart, I'm sure, and I ran away up here to do illegal activities. You know, things that were not good. That was the whole, sole purpose really of coming up here. Lied to my family about all of it. You know, came up here, went back home for my mom and stepdad's wedding, saw the tears rolling down my mom's face when she saw what I looked like and the time that I had spent up here during that stint of a few months was not good. It was because things in Texas that I was doing were different than they were up here. And so I came up here and it was just a different balls to the wall type deal and it really opened my eyes, a lot more than even in Texas, to what the world was really like. So to say that it scared me away a little bit would not be far from the truth.
Speaker 2:Moved back home, I stayed there, finished out some of the probation and stuff got everything fixed. And stuff got everything fixed. I had a friend going to OU up here. So, being from a really, you know, a smaller town, there's just certain things about a small town that I didn't like or wasn't ready to accept or whatever you want to call it Maybe, was ready to fly on my own, I guess you could say, and try to experience life in a different setting. Ou is in Norman. It's a college town. I think there's 60,000, 70,000 people in Norman. When school's in it's a big town. There's a lot going on in this area. I moved up here and the friend that I moved in with was pretty straight-laced. He wasn't like me at all. He had a scholarship, had things going on for himself and I moved up here and I think he was aware of the fact that some of the things that I was into, but I don't think he really realized the full longevity of it.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, the whole extent of what it of what it all with you, yeah, and, and I, and I tried not, you know, I never brought anything like that around his place. You know, I respected the fact that he could lose his scholarship and all of that, and I understood that, um, but that's when, like we were talking about earlier, he had to make a decision, what was going to be best for him and his future, and it wasn't having me on his couch, you know, and of course I was hurt by it and we had words, and you know, how are you going to invite me up here and then kick me out a couple of weeks later? And no-transcript, you know. And so I left, I left, I left his place and went, and you know, and I used that as an excuse to to push even because at the time I would like to say I guess maybe I had my addiction under control, as much as it could be, I guess, you know I wasn't really doing. I mean, I was taking pills, smoking, but I hadn't really dove off into the some of the harder substances quite yet, and so, as much as it can be called controlling it, I guess you can call it that. You know what I mean. That's right, that's right. Well, and like I said a lot when I what I had experienced in Oklahoma the first time kind of just got me away from wanting to go down that road, you know.
Speaker 2:And so but moved out, moved in with a friend that was working at the place I was working at. They gave me a couch to sleep on and you know, from there and the next several years it just kind of progressed into what it turned into. You know it started with pills and abusing Lortabs and Oxys and stuff like that and then, you know, I would have some decent jobs in a place of my own and a girlfriend and stuff like that. But it would never fail that after a year or two or four or five like things would.
Speaker 2:Things would go downhill. You know I could never maintain the stints of, of maintaining my life and a job and stuff like that would would be varied throughout throughout time. Eventually, you know, everything started crumbling, but again I started smoking methamphetamines and doing other drugs and so things really started crumbling downhill very fast, you know lost the job, lost a girlfriend and lost my place, and you know, and my mother tried to help me out as much as she could. You know of course I'm lying and manipulating and doing all of those things, because she was down there and you know again, of course that wasn't right, but that's the things that happen in addiction. You know it is yeah.
Speaker 1:So you said it happened pretty fast and I do want people to understand you were abusing, like you said, lortabs, oxys, you know smoking weed, things like that and you said it progressed pretty quickly when you started the meth.
Speaker 2:Yes, it did. So I had dabbled in East Texas when I was younger with cocaine and ecstasy and stuff like that, but it never really grabbed a hold. You know what I mean Like we would do it on the weekends or whatever, it wasn't ever a continual thing and then came up here and really started dabbling in the methamphetamines and it was like a whole new world. And I've heard that from other people, that once they start with that.
Speaker 2:It opens the door to other things and I don't know why that is. I don't know if it's the feeling or what it is, but I've heard that from other people too and I would say that was pretty much the same for me, because you know, I would mix the drugs. Obviously Lortab, whatever Opiates, is basically what it was. I was looking for opiates and the methamphetamines and then I needed stronger opiates, so I moved to fentanyl and heroin methamphetamine to counteract it, because the opiates would take me down and I needed the methamphetamine to take me up and I need to go to work.
Speaker 2:I the methamphetamine to take me up and I need to go to work.
Speaker 1:I need to, oh my God, I need to get out, and I'm up and I'm down. So it is like no wonder what happens in our brain. Right, we're trying to, we're trying to go up, we're trying to come down. It's no wonder why our brains just quit working. You know what I'm saying? They just everything stops interacting. You know what I mean? There, down, we're trying to make it happen ourselves, right, with all the different drugs that we're introducing.
Speaker 2:And methamphetamine is highly, highly addictive, highly addictive some treatment providers and you know, through the groups that we go through at Virtue Center, they give us a lot of information about you know kind of the science part of it and stuff like that. And from listen, I'm not a scientist, I'm just I'm just a recovering addict. But from what I understand you know it releases a lot of dopamines in your brain. The euphoria that's what we get and then, especially, like we were speaking earlier about our emotions, when we are getting sober, it takes a while for our brain to naturally release dopamines and the amount of dopamines that methamphetamines and stuff releases is an exaggerated amount compared to probably what normal situations.
Speaker 2:You know, what I mean. So we're trying to balance that out. And then you know, a lot of times that's why people early in recovery feel depressed and down and their brains and emotions are just a roller coaster, trying to figure life out and what life looks like. Now to my addiction. Because you know, like, let's be honest, I mean, the addiction was something that was with me from when I was 15 till I was decided, slash, forced to go to treatment, you know, at 37. And so that's a huge part of somebody's life. You know. I don't want to call it a friend or a partner, but that's a huge chunk of somebody's life that's not being removed. So it's natural to have feelings of, I don't know, abandonment or not.
Speaker 1:A bit, it's a lot, it's a great law, the perfect word. Yeah, it's a death almost. It's a death of who you were to become who you are, and you don't even realize all of the emotions that are wrapped up in that. You know what I mean, and emotions also. What you thought was friendships, you know that you thought were friendships, and all of those things that you have to let go of. And it's all encompassing, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's definitely a lot. You know, one of the biggest concerns I had when I was in treatment center in Enid Oklahoma, I was trying to figure out what my life is going to look like without the addiction, without know it it's. It was a struggle and you know, I had to realize that. Just because, like so, for me and this is an I statement, because everybody's recovery is different and whatever that looks like for somebody in their sobriety is fantastic For me, I don't want to just be sober, I need to live a fulfilled life.
Speaker 2:I need to feel like that being sober is productive, that I can either help other people, I can still laugh, I can still have friends, I can still evolve and become a better person on the daily, and I can still be successful, even though my story is a lot different than my family's or my friends or their friends or the people I went to church with. Yes, we have different stories, but that doesn't mean that my life can't be successful and fulfilled and have enjoyment and all the things that other people get to. You know, it just took me a little while to get there.
Speaker 1:Well, and you know you hit it. Sobriety and recovery are completely different. Right, sobriety is I'm quitting the substance. Recovery is making those changes and making those commitments to your personal growth, to acceptance, to your higher power, you know, to making the changes of how you're going to live your life differently. Not just I'm stopping the substance. You know what I mean. So it is completely different. But you have to go from one to the other. Right, you have to. You have to do a staircase. You don't just wake up one morning in recovery. You have to do sobriety first. Yes In sobriety first, yes In sobriety.
Speaker 2:Whatever that looks like for somebody, whether it's a treatment center, detox, trc, you know, and it's baby steps. You know, like I remember early on talking to my counselor at the Virtue Center and she had to slow me down, like it was one of those things. When I came back from treatment, you know I was a terror in Norman. You know the cops knew my name, they knew who I was. If they saw me they're going to talk to me like it was a. It was a bad deal and so when I came back to Norman from Enid, I had a reputation, you know people were. You know he's not going to make it, he's just doing this to get through treatment court. He's not serious. And and that bothered me, you know, it bothered my heart and my soul because I was ready to make a change and I was ready for people to see me in a different light.
Speaker 1:You want that quickly right I?
Speaker 2:wanted it quickly. Yes, and my counselor she spoke to me very candidly. She was like in time, she just got back from treatment. You're three months sober. Let's work on getting your life back together and just let your feet do the talking.
Speaker 1:Yes, actions right. It's not your word, it's going to be your actions that people are going to see, but we do want instant gratification, right, that was part of it.
Speaker 2:We're human.
Speaker 1:It's part of addiction as well. We get used to instant gratification, right, and that is a little bit hard because you want people to see you differently without giving them the chance to see you differently, because we tend to forget all the things that we did and how we acted and who we were to them before.
Speaker 2:And so they have to get past that too. Know, it's easy for us to want to forget the things we did in the past, or maybe just been in our you know addiction days. Don't remember a lot of things. I've heard a lot of things that I'll remember watching TV that I'm like, oh my God, I did that. I better go back and add that to another force tip.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I forgot about that. I forgot about that.
Speaker 2:Dang or somebody will be telling their story and you'll be like, oh my god, I forgot about that. Yeah, yeah, that day. But, like you said, they, they didn't, you know, they didn't forget it and they, that's because you know, we, I feel like, because I did so many things, you know so many wrongful this and that and the other. But to that individual, that person that I wronged, they remember it, you know, and that's why it's important that we make those amends when we can and when we're, when we're to those steps in our program. But, yes, the you know, we come back and I'm sober.
Speaker 2:Look at me, you know, and I tell people a lot of times, it took me years to destroy the bridges I did and burn them down. What makes me think that I'm going to be able to build them up in a couple of months? It makes me think that I'm going to be able to build them up in a couple of months, absolutely, because how many times did I say I'm sorry? How many times did I say I'll never do it again? If you get me out of jail, I promise I won't go back? How many times did I speak that stuff? And it was never true. So they're not in the wrong for not believing us in the beginning.
Speaker 1:The trust is earned right.
Speaker 2:The trust is earned. Yeah, it has to be.
Speaker 1:We broke it, right we broke it and we got to earn it back. And that is hard and in the beginning of sobriety and recovery it is. It is hard but it is doable it is changeable. Um, so go back and tell me. So you, you kind of started going down the road.
Speaker 2:You're in your what early twenties early twenties when you're um, no, 20s, early 20s when you're um, no, probably so. I think I've been in oklahoma for like 13 or 14 years now, so I would probably mid to late 20s, something like that. By the time it really started it's actually probably been closer to 15 or 16 years now, I guess. But you know, when it really started spitballing it was was probably I don't know mid to late 20s. It really got probably like I said.
Speaker 2:I mean, I would go through stints where the addiction wouldn't be Well, I say it wouldn't be as bad, it wouldn't be the harder drugs, but the opiates were a consistent part of my life. That's what I like, that's what I wanted, that's what I did. It got to a point, though, where I needed stronger opiates, couldn't maintain the job, so then, naturally, I picked the harder drugs back, the methamphetamine. I always, for whatever reason, I always reverted back to the methamphetamines, and just something about that drug always to me, was dirty, but I always did it and I always wanted it, and I think that's part of the addiction. Again, a lot of that is probably the, the, the desire to belong and to want to be a part of a social group, albeit that social group wasn't the social group I needed to be a part of. It still was a group of people that I felt that I belonged to, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, you know, once I had eventually thrown my life away and, you know, destroyed all the relationships I had and just the various habits that I had picked up and stuff I lost my job, lost everything you know had really nowhere to turn. You know, I slept on the streets a lot. I got to a point where I still needed to feed my addiction one way or another. So for me, what that looked like was basically stealing, taking things that didn't belong to me. You know, and I was talking to somebody about this the other day it was one of those things.
Speaker 2:The physical withdrawals off of heroin and fentanyl are so bad that it would drive me to a point to where I will do whatever I have to do to not feel like this. You know, because there would be times where I would try to stop or didn't have money or whatever that looks like, you know. And but the like for people that have never suffered the, the the pain of addiction, like they can't hardly understand what it's like to to have that feeling of the, the physical withdrawals, and then, on top of it, the emotional withdrawal. So it got to a point where, whatever it took for me, I was going to make sure that I had money to, to get the next high and and to not feel that way anymore. You know, and then you've got. Like I said, I grew up in a good background and a good home. So, you know, at one point in time I couldn't even look myself in the mirror because I knew the very morals that I was taught as a kid. I was breaking them every single day, you know.
Speaker 1:That guilt and that shame. Just that's like the tip right and it just spirals, spiral, spiral and yeah, you start to get a little sober and then all those feelings come up and then, oh my gosh, I don't want to feel all that right, because that's hard.
Speaker 2:Um, those things are real yeah, it's, it's definitely tough, you know, and those are, those are hard feelings and emotions to deal with, just regular, regularly right um, and then you add addiction, addiction to them and what you're doing in life and what you're not doing, and everything like that. It's even harder. You know, absolutely.
Speaker 2:No matter how much, no matter how many times I went to jail or hurt somebody or heard the pain in my mother's voice on the phone, like just it was. You know, getting off of drugs is not an easy thing to do and you know there's a lot of people out there that have never went through that and maybe never heard anybody talk about it or never dealt with it personally, that say, well, if it's, if it's that bad, you know, just quit. Well, if it was that easy, we wouldn't have the epidemic that we do now, it wouldn't be, or the pandemic you know like it wouldn't be as bad. If it was that easy for everybody to just quit, it wouldn't be a problem, we wouldn't need rehabs and we wouldn't need outpatient treatment. You know.
Speaker 2:But it's not like there's, like I said earlier, there's something wired in my brain different that you know. God didn't wire me the same as everybody else. So whatever that looks like, I don't know, because I wasn't there when I was made but it's just the way it is. It's the way it is for me and it's the way it is for millions of addicts alike. But it's not easy to quit. It's hard, and when you add the shame and the guilt it makes it even worse.
Speaker 1:It does, and especially if you're brought up well, especially if you're brought up in a good home I was as well and it is hard because you then you're like disappointed.
Speaker 1:You know everybody's disappointed in you and you're disappointed in yourself and you tell yourself a lot of lies. There's just so many lies that you tell yourself and it's just, it's just hard. It's hard for anybody. Addiction is hard for anybody, Let me make that clear. It is just a overwhelm. You know what I mean. An overwhelm in all senses, in all areas, and if you've never had it been in it, been around it, it's very difficult to understand, Very difficult and you said that addiction is hard on everyone, and you're 100% right.
Speaker 2:A lot of times in addiction I'd never thought about what it was doing to other people, like, yes, I knew it was hurting my family and my friends and my relationships, but I didn't really grasp it, because addiction is a very selfish thing, you know, and it's. It's me, me, me. I'm worried about myself, I'm worried about my next high, I'm worried about my court date, you know. So, a lot of times I never focused or or was concerned with how it was affecting you. But when you have a member of the family or a loved one or a friend, that's in addiction. It affects everybody and everything around them. It's just hard to see that and grasp it. Whenever you're living it, when you're walking down that hill, it's just hard to see it, it is. It's just like they say. It feels like there's no way out and we know there is right, that's right, we know there is, that's right.
Speaker 1:So when you started kind of you know, deep in your addiction, you started getting in trouble and all the things was the first thing that happened drug court.
Speaker 2:I mean no, probably around when. So we all remember COVID right.
Speaker 1:When.
Speaker 2:COVID hit. I was behind.
Speaker 1:You remember?
Speaker 2:COVID yeah, I was on a probation sentence then and I guess you could say I lucked out, I guess because COVID hit and so like nobody was going to check in at probation office, there was no community service, there was no drug test, like there was none of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it was like oh no, drug test, like there was none of it. Yeah, but it was like oh no you can't.
Speaker 2:I'm running the streets acting wild. I remember I went to court, like that was like a year or two year probation sentence or something like that. And then I had gotten in trouble again and most of my charges are for theft of merchandise, theft from retailer stuff like that from from box stores. And so I remember I got in trouble again, went back to court and my lawyer came outside and he said you were on probation for this, this and this. And I said yeah, he said you didn't do anything. They asked I said what do you mean? There was COVID. He said oh man, buddy. He said we're going to be in a world of hurt.
Speaker 2:Luckily my mom had paid some fees. The only thing that really saved me was that the DA fees were paid off because it didn't matter. They were about to put me on something else anyway. So that probation, it was almost null and void because I'm about to go into a different program Fighting that case, doing it, still just getting arrested. Every other week Cops are pulling me over, coming to the house. It was just nonstop because I wouldn't stop.
Speaker 2:I was a nuisance to the community, car hopping and just doing the most. And that's what happens when you're doing that stuff. You're going to have a police presence, a heavy police presence in your life and around you and around everything that has your name associated with it and all of that. But my lawyer had came and talked to me one time in jail, you know, and we sat down and he was like Matt, you know, I feel like you're a good kid, it's like I think you've got a good head on your shoulders. He said but I think that a lot of this, these criminal activities, are drug and drug fueled. And I, you know absolutely. And he said well, listen, we have a program treatment court. He said I'm going to try to get you in there, you know. He said but it's not easy, you know. And I said sign me up, you know if it'll get me out of jail. Sign me up. And cause, I was on, that's right.
Speaker 2:I was on DOC probation for some stuff in Oklahoma County and I remember they let me out. They signed me up for the program I played in. I had to go watch it. They want you to go observe for a couple of weeks before to kind of get an idea for what you're getting into. I remember I walked in there and my DOC probation officer is one of the ladies that oversees individuals in there and she said, mr House, what are you doing here? Because I hadn't told her nothing. And I said, mr House, what are you doing here? Because I hadn't told her nothing, you know. And I said, well, I'm supposed to be going to treatment court. And she just shook her head, you know, because she knew. You know she saw right through all the manipulation and lies that I was telling her. And of course I go in there thinking that I'm going to be able to manipulate the courts. You know I'm going to be able to lie to them and get around the drug test and this and that. And I tried and I probably did a little bit, because I mean everybody, you know it goes like that sometimes. But eventually they caught on and they saw right through it. And you know my counselors at the Virtue Center saw through it and they knew that I was smoking fentanyl and it just became one thing after another. You know I was going to jail like I remember one time my mom told me that she hated Thursdays because that was the day I had to go to drug court and she knew that if she didn't hear from me past a certain time that I was in jail. And it became every Thursday that she wouldn't hear from me. And I'm calling from a collect phone, you know, and I'm trying to talk to her, and this and that and just so many times.
Speaker 2:I remember my probation officer told me she was like we had no idea what to do with you at one point. She was like we put you in jail. We gave you community service. You forged the community service documents. She was like we put you in jail for perjury, you know. She was like we gave you essays, more community service. She was like we were putting you in jail every single week. We literally did not want to, we didn't know what to do and it got to a point where the options were either revoke the sentence, which was going to be like a 13 year sentence, or treatment. And so you know, of course I'm like, oh, treatment, I'll do treatment, not knowing what that consists of yet right Treatment court.
Speaker 1:That's not easy. I'll do treatment Not knowing what that consists of yet right Treatment court, yeah, that's not easy right.
Speaker 2:No, it's not, but it sounded better than prison.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I had to do like a month in Cleveland County and clear some stuff up there. And then I had a warrant in Oklahoma County. I had to go up there for a month and wait there and that was just those two times and finally got released. And then I went, I got released from there, went to see my judge for the next court date or whatever, and failed a UA. And he was like how do you get out of a county jail and fail a UA? I said, well, you know, I'm struggling, like I can't, I don't know what to do. So they, they, they put me in jail that day and they had a bed waiting for me when I got out five days. And so I got out, went to the Catalyst and Enid and even there, like I didn't go to a detox center to detox off of any drug, it was straight, just, you know, go to treatment and this is what it's going to be. So I had to detox from all that stuff in treatment.
Speaker 2:And it was rough.
Speaker 1:Now I work at a treatment facility, as you know South Coast Behavioral Health and I can't imagine I'm a group facilitator and I can't imagine we have detox there. I can't imagine you coming in and coming to my group and not having been through detox, like where your head was, where your body was, where your brain was. I can't even imagine that for you, because you need a detox.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was. It was all over the place you know, and the physical withdrawals off of, you know, heroin, methamphetamines, fentanyl, like we said, are so bad that it was really rough, you know, and I'm pacing the floors all night can't believe all the things that are associated with that.
Speaker 2:So it was rough for, I mean, a couple of weeks till I kind of was able to get my head right and get my eyes clear and, you know, my body back to normal and stuff like that. Like get my mind, my eyes clear and, and you know, my body back to normal and stuff like that. Like it was rough. You know, nobody's trying to hear that in the beginning I'm thinking about walking out the doors because I mean, at any point in time I could leave you know it was one of those deals.
Speaker 2:Luckily, you know, I stayed and worked through, worked the program out in their 47 days Um, you know, took hold of what they were offering, really tried to buckle down and figure out my life and work through some things that were going on on the inside and worked with the counselors and really tried to put my all into being a better person. You know, that's all I. That was my only option. I mean, it was either going to be death, jail or institution.
Speaker 1:We talked about? Right, just like we talk about, there is no other options. There's no other options in addiction, right? There's not, that's right. It's death, it's prison or both. Yeah, let's be real, that's where we're at and that's how serious that it is right. So when you first went to treatment, you went because you were court ordered, but you said you really tried to take hold. You really did go into it with your heart. You weren't just saying to yourself this is treatment and I just got to get through it for the courts, like you really went into it with an open mind and an open heart.
Speaker 2:So let's be honest, those first couple of weeks I was, I was not digging it, I was not trying to be there, I was wanting to get out and get high. I was trying. I mean, I was going through all of that. And so for years, how do I fix the way I'm feeling is to give my body what it wants, which is the drugs right.
Speaker 2:And your mind, yes, and so that you know there's a lot of battling that in the beginning. But you know there's a lot of battling that in the beginning but eventually once, like I said, I got a clear head and I was able to think clearly and stuff like that. You know, I started sitting down and you know part of that program, part of treatment court, is they have self-improvement activities, sias, and they, you know they require you to go to meetings and stuff like that, which is important to have that to get a foundation. So I had been aware of what AA and NA meetings were like and stuff like that. I just I was never the one with the problem, they were always the one with the problem, kind of thing, and so but I think you know there was a lot of outside people that brought meetings to that facility, like usually once a week, and I was like you know, one day I was thinking I was like man, if these people are taking time out of their day to come here from Norman in the city, I mean that's not a close drive to bring us the message. There's got to be something to this message. And if all of these people have gotten some answers out of this book you know the big book then maybe there's something to this program, like, maybe there's something that I can get from this and that can help me, there's something that I can get from this and that can help me.
Speaker 2:You know, if working the steps is going to benefit me, then maybe I owe it to myself and my family and everything else to try and better myself. You know, and we said that, you know, being an addiction is selfish. Well, you know, being in the program is selfish too, especially in the beginning. You have to really take time to work on yourself and to get yourself figured out, get your shit in order. And again, that's why the 12 steps are in the order they are in. They're in that order for a reason we don't want to jump ahead and start trying to make amends when we haven't even put in the work to better ourselves and better our own life. And so, yeah, I can't say I went into it all gung-ho, but about a couple of weeks into it, once I finally started thinking straight, I tried to really grasp and start thinking. That time for the clarity to set in and know that it is coming, it truly is coming.
Speaker 1:Like I have people come in and they're coming to group for maybe the first, second day and they've got their eyes closed, their heads against the wall, their personality is not out yet, their character is not out. And I always say just give them a minute. They're not here yet their character's not out. And I always say just give them a minute. They're not here yet, They'll be with us. And then when they are, I'm always like there, he is, there, she is. You know what I mean. It does take that time. It takes a moment for that clarity to set in for you to even start thinking that maybe there is something for me here, Maybe some good can come of this. Like I've been trying to do it my way this whole time. Maybe there is another way, Maybe I should shut up and listen.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's time to listen instead of just run my mouth all the time. You know what I mean, and that's hard for addicts?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is, and I think they call that asmosis. Just come in, put your ass in that seat and let some stuff sink in.
Speaker 1:It is asmosis. That's exactly what it is.
Speaker 2:And that's right Because, like you said, I tried to do things my way for years and it's not working out. So maybe I should try a different way, a different path. Let's see if there's a better option out there, because the decisions I was making what do they say my best decisions got me in the seat right. Yeah, and you know and that was another thing I had to learn as well, early on in recovery, you know the choices and decisions I made for so long were the wrong ones and were the bad ones that when I started trying to live a sober life and started trying to walk in recovery, I had to learn to trust myself again. You know there was a lot of times I questioned am I making the right decision? Is this the right way to go? But I had to learn that you know to trust myself again and to trust that I'm making the right decision. But that takes time.
Speaker 1:It does.
Speaker 2:You know that takes work and that takes effort. That's not something that just comes right away from being a week sober. I mean that takes a lot of looking inside and working a program and doing the things necessary to be in recovery.
Speaker 1:And surrounding yourself with your recovery family. Right, you have to. You know, that sense of belonging that we were looking for as teenagers, that sense of finding our people. Well, guess what you have. You can find those people in the recovery community as well.
Speaker 2:Right, you start finding your people, you start finding where you belong, you start finding what that acceptance I will be the first person to tell a newcomer in a meeting hall that the fellowship of whatever 12-step program they're in. You know, for me I found my recovery in the walls of AA and you know, for me, I found my recovery in the walls of AA and so the fellowship of that program kept me sober for a little bit. Because again, I'm just being transparent when I came back from treatment, you know the thoughts of oh, I'm doing better, do I really need to work a 12-step program Like that seemed like a lot Like I got a lot going on at the Oxford House and Drug Court. I'm in. That seems like a lot Like I got a lot going on at the Oxford House and my drug court. I'm in IOP, so I'm in treatment from 5 to 7.30, monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday, plus I got to get a job. You know what I mean. There was a lot going on. So do I really need to take on the burden of working the steps? And so I understand in the beginning, somebody brand new newcomer coming in getting a desire chip can have a lot of questions, but what I expressed to him. That's why I think the phone lists in these groups are so important, because calling somebody, getting out of yourself, taking the trash out at the meeting halls, carrying the coffee around, making the coffee, being early, staying late, fellowshipping I made a lot of good connections in the walls and then that carried over to the Oxford House and the sober community that I have nowadays. But the relationships and the friendships are vital and they're very important. Now again it's very important.
Speaker 2:It was for me that I did work a program and that I did get a sponsor. But in the beginning, the very beginning, the first month or two, that fellowship really kept me going. You know when I was struggling, you know calling people on the phone list and of course they're telling me to get a sponsor and all of that. But you know the fellowship, it helps me out nowadays.
Speaker 2:You know the friends that I have today will answer the phone when I'm struggling. They'll call. You know they called to see if we, if I want to go eat or if I want to go hang out or whatever. And you know for someone like myself I'm a very outgoing person I need that. That goes back to the whole sobriety and walking and recovery thing for me. I don't want to just be doing nothing. I want to live a fulfilled life with friends and go, do stuff and enjoy myself and this and that, and so you know what I mean. Whatever that looks like, for me, it just needs to look like that with friends that are like-minded and on the same path.
Speaker 1:And when you're in jail, how many of your friends from the street are answering your phone call?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, zero. Nobody ran to my aid then.
Speaker 1:All those bros and all those homies that you got on the street, they don't even have. You know what I'm saying? Like, where are they? And so when you start looking at it that way, when you're in recovery and you're like, wow, these people are answering the phone, they do care about me. There is some love here. There is some really true, like wanting to see the best for people, it starts changing your perspective of people too, because you know, when you're living on the streets and you're living that street life, you're not trusting people. People aren't trusting you for good reason, right, for good reasons to surround ourselves with. But when you get into actually embracing recovery and you start seeing that, wow, there is a lot of love in this community, it does change some things in your heart, it does soften you a little bit and it does take you to the place you originally wanted to go in the first place, when you started out looking for that acceptance. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:And I think it just takes a minute to get there. Right, it takes a minute to get there and it needs. It's like people like you, matt, that are, that are in recovery, that have been through it, that are at the Oxford House, that have got some time under their belt, that are helping the newcomers Right.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:And that's what it takes, and you're doing it, and you've been. You've been sober for how long now?
Speaker 2:So two years and five months, july 10th of 22 is my sober date, and that's awesome, by the way, congratulations.
Speaker 1:Do you think that treatment court was your main motivation for not going to prison, or do you think that you really started loving yourself first while you were there and changing away? Does that make?
Speaker 2:sense? Yes, it does. I would say that treatment court provided a level of accountability that I couldn't get away from until I could love myself. Does that make sense? Absolutely, absolutely, perfect, sure, sure. When I came back from treatment there's, you know, I was, like you know, again, 47 days sober, you know, and still trying to figure my life out and figure out what was going on and this and that. But that level of accountability was still there with drug court. And somebody asked me one time, and when they asked me, you know, because when I came back from treatment, I was gung ho, I was ready to be sober, I wanted to do the right thing, I needed to do the right things, I was ready to make a change in my life. So I hadn't really thought about anything outside of you know. Yes, I had some long term goals, but at that moment I was really focused on my short-term goals, what I need to do today day by day, day at a time, just for today, is very important.
Speaker 2:In the beginning it was for me, and so somebody asked me one time. They said do you think when you leave drug court that you'll get high again? You won't have that level of accountability. You can move out of the Oxford house, you know you can. You can pretty much do what you want, and you can do what you want to do again. Yep, yes, the life that I'm living today is better than the life I was living back then.
Speaker 1:And if, because that's what you, the time, the energy the effort that you put into that hustle, you can put that into recovery.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I walked I don't know how many miles in my addiction to get what I needed, or to do this or to do that, you know. And then why would I not come into an Oxford house or a sober house and start trying to live a program and not put that kind of effort and time into it? You know, like, if we really truly want recovery, it's not easy. I'm not going to lie to you, it's not easy, but it's worth it. It's worth coming out the other side, a better person, you know, trying to fix those relationships. And let's be honest, we're not always going to be able to fix the relationships that we fucked up. We're not. It's just, it's a part of life. But we can't change other individuals. We can't worry about their. Like, everybody's feelings are validated, so if they feel that way, that's fine. All we can do is clean our side of the streets and live a better life. For today. That's all we can do, that's what we're offered and that's what we can do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we can only control ourselves, right, we can only control ourselves every day, and some no-transcript.
Speaker 2:We admit the powerlessness, we find a higher power, you know.
Speaker 2:We take those stones that have been weighing us down for so long through a good fourth and fifth step, and we put them down and we admit our wrongs to, you know, god and another human being, and then we work on our character defects and try to figure things out about ourselves.
Speaker 2:And then, and only then, do we start trying to make amends to other people. And I think, personally, I think a lot of that is because now, when we're ready for that eighth and ninth step, we're maybe ready for the hard answers that are gonna come along with it, because they're not always gonna be awesome, they're not always for the hard answers that are going to come along with it, because they're not always going to be awesome, they're not always going to be good answers, and I'm a living testament to that. The answers I've gotten from some of the men aren't the answers I want, and they're tough. They're tough, but I was prepared, as I could be, for the answers or the non-answers that I got, you know, and you just have to be okay with it. You have to be okay with being okay.
Speaker 1:You do have to be okay with being okay, and that's part of, like you said, working them in order, because if you jump to that, you're not ready for not getting the answers that you want yet. Do you know what I mean? You're not ready, you're not there, so you do got to work them in order.
Speaker 2:That's, that's absolutely the truth. So tell me kind of what's going on for you today, where, where are you at in your life and your sobriety, where are you living and all the things that you know we talked a little bit about before we ever hit record. This morning came to Norman and listen, I had been through Oxford House one time in treatment court and things did not go well. I was not abiding by the rules. The house had to expel me. Of course I'm upset because of this and that and the other. I had ran up a debt here, just all bad. So when I left treatment court or when I was getting ready to leave the Catalyst in Enid, I had to call the outreach worker for this area and really humble myself and talk to her about trying to get into another house and stuff like that. And she was willing to give me another chance. Thank God, I came to Norman and she had some hard conversations with me and told me what needed to happen if I came to another Oxford house and what we weren't going to do as I was doing the first time. So I came to Claremont that's one of the houses in Norman and I sat all the way down. I built a program and a foundation. In the 12 steps I went through my IOP, I found a job. I walked, I Ubered, I rode a bike. I did whatever I had to do to make sure that I was at every drug test, every court date, every meeting at the Virtue Center, every IOP, every one-on-one, whatever it looked like. I made sure that I was at every single thing because if I'm like we just said, if I'm really trying to change my life, now's the time to put that effort into it and try to change it Absolutely. And I really tried to grab a hold of that and run with it and I feel like I did. You know I've been.
Speaker 2:I stayed at Claremont for probably six, seven months roughly and opened an Oxford house for men in Norman on July 1st of 23,. I guess it would be. We did that, or I guess technically I think it was July 4th is when we did it opened that house up. There's the house level for Oxford and then there's the chapter level. There's structure positions inside of a house and then, on a little bit bigger scale, there's chapter positions that we have a chapter meeting every month, that kind of like a business meeting. We discuss things going on with our money and finances and things going on in the houses and we bring information to the houses and stuff like that and then also on that chapter level, houses can reach out if they're struggling with this or that and we can work in the house in an HSC capacity and try to help them out with certain questions and things.
Speaker 2:So I started becoming a part of. You know, I started getting involved. Once I kind of got things a little slowed down with drug court. My counseling wasn't as much. My work was getting a little bit more steady. I found a full-time job, got my CDL back, all that good stuff.
Speaker 2:I started wanting to get more involved in Oxford and starting. I started wanting to help an organization that helped me. You know they didn't have to Oxford, didn't have to accept me back. They didn't have to give me a second chance, they didn't have to answer the phone. But you know they did and those guys that accepted me in that house took time out of their day. They took time out of their job, their meetings, whatever they had going on that day. They took time out of it to sit me down, fill out an application with me and hold an interview and accept me in that house and I wanted to be a part of a program and of an organization that was doing that for other individuals. I wanted to be a part of something bigger than myself. So I started getting involved and, like I said, I opened that house. I started getting on the chapter board.
Speaker 2:I started as men's HSC, which is like a housing services chair which kind of just helps with things in the house men's HSC, women's HSC, stuff like that. We had that house open from July to pretty close to I mean, it was open. We got it open and we got lucky. We filled that house really fast and we had really great set of guys that came in there and were hungry for recovery and were willing to do all the things necessary and follow the model and follow the footsteps of the people that were late before even myself, to try and live a better life and live in recovery.
Speaker 2:So I moved from Rumble over to a house called Heisman, which is where I'm located now. They were just needing some assistance here. They had some key members move out and go on to do their own thing, which is always the goal, always making better steps and fulfilling our lives. But it kind of left the house in a little bit of not a lot of people here and not just a whole lot of guidance, I guess you could say so. I was asked to move over here. So I moved over here January 1st of last year. I've been here almost a year.
Speaker 2:I went from the men's HSC to the vice chair of chapter four. I went from that to chapter chair. That's currently where I'm at now. I got voted in as the state, the Oxford state treasurer, so I hold that position as well. And mainly, you know, somebody asked me the other day. They said when are you going to move out of Oxford? I said, man, you know, when I feel like the time is right, I have such a heart for helping the next person and trying to help the next individual because somebody was there for me, somebody answered the phone, somebody raised their hand, somebody took me to meetings, somebody took me for my first meal, somebody helped me with clothes, and so if I can do that for the next individual, that's what I want to do and at this moment in my life I feel like.
Speaker 1:That's my responsibility and when it's time, I'll probably know. Yeah, absolutely, you're 12. You're on the 12th step, right? You're on the 12th. You're giving back. You are helping and you're giving back of what was freely given to you, right?
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:And that is so important, because talk about a sense of purpose, right, and that heart for giving back. It comes. It truly comes, and when you get to that place, you'll know. You'll know when you're supposed to do something different, right, you'll just know. Do you have a few minutes to tell me, like, what is the interview process like and what does it look like on a day to day living in sober living? What does that look like for someone that's never? Because it's scary, right? Someone thinking about coming to a house, a bunch of guys they've never met. They're coming to sober living? Oh my God, there's going to be so many rules. I can't have girls over. Like all the things that you got, right, is that not? Is that not?
Speaker 2:like number one. Yeah, so like all the things that you got right.
Speaker 1:Is that not? Is that not like number?
Speaker 2:one yeah, sure, so what does that look like from the beginning.
Speaker 2:Let's okay, we'll answer that one first and then we'll come back to what does the interview process look like? Is that okay, perfect, okay? It's going to look different for every individual in different periods of their recovery. For the first individual that for the newcomer that comes in it's going to look a lot different for that individual than it does me, because I've been here, so my life is a little more established. I mean, that's just what comes along with being in recovery a little bit longer.
Speaker 2:For the individual that comes in, I mean we give them a heavy dose of AA and NA. We have five meetings a week they're required to do. There's drug tests when they come in the house, there's curfews. There's only a few amount of places that we allow them to go, and that's a house rule. And that's just because, in my opinion, we're trying to set somebody up for success and running the streets and doing this, and that isn't really what we need to be doing. When we first move into a sober house, we need to be in the meeting halls, we need to be getting a sponsor, we need to be getting our IDs, we need to be getting a job, we need to be fixing ourselves. We don't need to be running around with whoever whatever. We need to be focusing on ourselves and doing what we need to do to be a better person. And in my experience, and the experience of thousands of others, what that looks like is being home at a normal hour, getting a job, going to meetings, getting a sponsor, you know, and doing all those things. And then, after you know, you're on what's called a newcomer contract After the newcomer contract and you're caught up on your rent and you've earned the trust of the house. And another thing when you move into a house, you're moving into a house with anywhere from five, six, seven, eight, nine other guys, so we only have to get to know one individual. That newcomer has to get to know that many other guys, and so it's important that you're around at the house a lot so we can get to know you, you can get to know us, we can build that level of trust up. That way we know when we take you off newcomers, you're not going to just run amok and do whatever, because you know we do ask.
Speaker 2:You know part of our traditions when you're in the public, that you represent the Oxford House to the best of your abilities. You know what I mean. Like, yes, you're living here and you're trying to live a better life, and it doesn't always go like that. Let's not be foolish, it doesn't always go like that, but primarily that's what we ask. You know, part of our traditions is to represent Oxford House correctly and appropriately. Be a respectful member. Don't be disrespectful out in public, don't be in the meeting halls. You know being disrespectful and you know just carry yourself like you're sober and like you're trying to live a better life, you know, right.
Speaker 2:So what that looks like for a newcomer is is is busy, definitely busy. You know a lot of times they have they're either in treatment court or they have counseling and I just I try to tell them like I'm not going to ask you to do anything that I haven't already done and I promise you it can be done. Is it hard? Yes, is it possible? A hundred percent, you know. But again, that has to go back to what do they really want? Do you really want to change that life? Do you really want to make yourself better so down the road you can get your child back or fix that marriage or not? Have the courts looming over you? Like what does that look like for you? If you're not serious and you're not really trying to do the right thing, it's going to be really hard, but if you're trying to do the right thing and make the better decisions, it's really not that bad, because all those things that we're setting before you are things that you're going to be doing in recovery anyways.
Speaker 1:And that structure and that routine is so necessary in the beginning. It is so necessary to have that Because you know living a sober life and living in recovery. You have, you have a job, you have to get up in the morning, you have to go somewhere, you have to you know what I mean fulfill obligations and you have to learn how to do that structure and routine. Again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. And you know a lot of the things that Oxford offers. One of the main things is that fellowship, the brotherhood, the sisterhood. You know there's a lot of. I think there's 150 houses in Oklahoma. We have, I think we have 12 houses here just in chapter four, that's just in Norman.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 12 in Norman.
Speaker 2:That's just in Norman. Whoa, yeah, we have a lot Just in Norman. Yeah, it's, the sober community in Norman is amazing. There's plenty of meetings. You know there's I don't want to say just plenty of second chance jobs, but there are. There's such a large community, a sober community in Norman that you know, typically, more times than not, you're probably going to find somebody in that job that is either in recovery, knows about recovery, knows about Oxford House is willing to give you a chance. Again, not always, but there are those jobs out there that are willing to give people second chances. You just have to put in the work and find them. But yeah, the brotherhood and sisterhood that Oxford offers for me is amazing. They're the events that we put on and there's things that we do. We try to keep people involved. We go to conventions and we go to retreats and stuff like that and to you know, keep and let them know that there's a life outside of the addiction.
Speaker 1:you know that it doesn't have to be a dull lot, you know.
Speaker 1:And that's you know. That is one of the things I think that people think in the beginning right, what am I going to do? That sounds like just a life of being, like boredom. Right, people think that you know what I mean Because the hustle was so much fun. They forget how hard that was right. And people in the beginning think, well, what am I going to do? Sober, when you are living and you're living your purpose and you're around like-minded people, there's many things to do, right, there's many things to do, many things to go to, not just meetings. There's fun things that you do. There's retreats, there's cookouts, there's all the things, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love to eat, so I always like to go eat.
Speaker 1:And that is part of it, right, yeah, so just putting yourself around that, putting yourself in that recovery community is so important, and that's how you find what there is to do. You know what I mean? You have to be in it to win it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and again, you have to be in it to win it. Yeah, and again, you have to surround yourself with with the like-minded people. I'm not saying that you can't hang out with people that have never been in addiction or never struggled with whatever, but for me, surrounding myself with people that understand, you know, and that's why the groups that we go through in the treatment courts and, like your, your place provides they're important. You know, peer-led, I can bounce my best ideas off of people that understand and that have been through it and that that know the struggle I'm going through provides they're important. You know, peer led, I can bounce my best ideas off of people that understand and that have been through it and that know the struggle I'm going through, because, let's be honest, people that have never went through it aren't understanding the things I'm going through. They don't understand why, or the what or the when, you know. And so surrounding myself with people that I can call on a bad day and bounce my best ideas off of them and have them go what the hell man?
Speaker 1:that's stupid, not in a judgment way, just in a friendship way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know, but having that brutal honesty with some of my friends is important to me, because I need that sometimes, because sometimes I think I've got a great idea and they're like you know. I mean, for me that's important to have that around, you know, and those are friends that I'll have for a lifetime.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and you know I do. I appreciate that you taking the time to share that, because I think people truly don't know what they don't know. And sometimes the idea of sober living houses or treatment even is really scary.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, I get it. I get it. You know, our outreach worker says we were at a house meeting last night and she was talking to the house and one of the things that she says is you know, living out there in the streets is a struggle. The scariest thing we've ever had to do is knock on that door because on the other side of that door is an Oxford house. That's going to be responsibility, and responsibility and recovery isn't always easy. It's scary.
Speaker 1:We don't know what that looks like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's doing everything that we have to do as a normal person and then, on top of it, putting in extra work and time, the steps and working. A program of recovery has taught me how to be a better boyfriend, a better son, a better friend, just an all around better man.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean, you're just a better human because of it, for sure. And learning to take responsibility and accountability for your actions is huge, right, just being accountable for your own actions and what you put out in this world, the energy you're putting out, is huge. It's a huge step in recovery, because we definitely don't take responsibility when we're in addiction. It's always everybody else's fault. Right, we're always a victim. It's everybody else's fault. They did that. I got in trouble because they were there and they made me and da-da-da-da-da, you know, on and on and on. So once we start taking accountability for our own actions, man, that is life-changing, just right there, yeah, not always fun, that's right.
Speaker 2:Not always fun but very much life-changing and taking accountability is a huge step for my actions. And taking accountability is a huge step for my actions. Even being two years sober, I have to take accountability on a daily for my job or for the guys at the house or for the other houses that I assist. Like you know, accountability is a huge part of the program and, like you said, it's tough sometimes, but it has taught me to be a better person. It has taught me to live a better life and to accept responsibility for my actions. You know I don't always make the correct choice. You know we were talking earlier about trusting myself and I don't always make the correct choice. Sometimes I fuck up and make a bad decision, but I can be accountable for it and the decisions I'm making today, even if it's a wrong one, aren't going to land me in jail or death. You know it's not necessarily a life changing decision.
Speaker 1:Right, and you know the whole premise. This podcast is called Breakfast of Choices and you know it was me waking up in jail at 515 in the morning going shit. These are the choices that I made. You know what I mean, and they didn't always do so well for me, right? So, like you said, even my worst choice today is still better than my best choice back then.
Speaker 2:I think that's the truth.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure. You know, when I was learning sobriety and first getting sober and all those things, mine was in prison. There was no detox, there was no treatment center. You know what I mean. It was boom, you're in prison. You know what I mean, and I was barely 19. So for me that was great. It was great, I needed it, I needed the smackdown, I needed that harsh reality, I needed all of it. But you know, like we talked about I'm a little older and that the treatment centers and all of that wasn't as prevalent as it is today. There wasn't. I couldn't just call somebody at a treatment center and be like I want to come. We didn't talk about it back then. It wasn't even spoke about. Really, you know what I mean. And if we're in treatment, oh my gosh, that was like you know what I mean. It wasn't. It just wasn't really a thing that I remember anyway at all. So I wasn't ever offered a drug court or a drug treatment plan or even another way. I wasn't even offered that.
Speaker 2:And so all of those things that are out there to help today, all we have to do is ask for help, right, right, well, and that's why it's so important that the message is put out there, like the stuff the Virtue Center does, and putting on the panels and getting the information out there.
Speaker 2:That's why it's so important, you know, when we share at meetings or when we share on a panel or when we share our stories and stuff like that, like you never know who you might touch or who might be there that needs to hear it.
Speaker 2:And if we can touch one individual out of a group of 50, then it has to be worth it. You know, because that's our responsibility to carry the message and to be that helping hand when somebody reaches out. You know, but getting the message out is very important. And you know, like you said, things are different than they were back in the day and having the treatment centers that we do nowadays and the programs and stuff, because I feel like, instead of just incarcerating people and putting them in prison and then they're in there and they get no help to really battle what's going on inside or in their brain and let's be honest, there's shit readily available in there as well so we're really just putting them in there so they can get better plugs and learn how to be better at what they were already doing.
Speaker 2:Honestly, yeah, so to the individuals that we think we can help or that want the help, it's important, I think, that we have those programs like Treatment Corridor or your treatment center or the Virtue Center and Oxford Safe Housing. That was one of the biggest things for me was that I knew I had a place to go, that I was going to be safe. It was going to be people that were sober and I could lay my head down at night have a hot shower have a washer and dryer, not have to worry about.
Speaker 2:As long as I did the things they asked me to do, followed the house guidelines, followed the rules, followed the traditions, then I would have a place to go pay my rent, you know all that stuff. I would have a place to go that I could be safe. I could be around people that were trying to better their lives, that were like me convicts, felons, addicts, alcoholics, people that were like me that we're trying to make a better life for ourselves.
Speaker 1:You know and that was important for me- yeah, absolutely, and it is very important because you said several times safe. I can promise you, when I went to prison I did not feel safe, right. So going to a place like the Oxford House, wherever it might be Sober, vibes Better Together Recovery. We're talking about the Oxford House right now, but going somewhere that is safe is so important. It is so important to be able to go lay your head down at night and feel that acceptance, that brotherhood, that love, and feel safe when you close your eyes. Man, that is life changing and I don't think, I think if more more people understood that, recovery wouldn't sound so scary. You know what I mean. Like going in.
Speaker 1:Because you're that street life. You're not safe, you don't feel safe, you never feel safe. You know having somewhere to go that you do feel safe is 100 percent important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think I think the non-judgment zone is is a big part of it too. I mean you're coming into a house, like I said, with felons and convicts and people. I mean I'm on probation for the next nine years. You know people that understand. Like you know you would be surprised.
Speaker 2:A lot of times during our interview process you can kind of tell people are hesitant to tell their story or to let us know about their past. And I get it. I know it's nerve wracking to be sitting in front of a group of guys that you have no idea who they are. They're asking you questions. You know a little bit about your past and how serious you are. Like we're trying to figure things out and you have to tell them the things you did. You know you don't know if excuse me, you don't know if they've what they've been through or what it's like.
Speaker 2:So I understand being a little apprehensive to tell your story, but I try to let them know that there's probably not a whole lot. You're going to say that at least one of us in this house hasn't already lived through we get it Absolutely the robberies and the theft and the firearms and all the stuff that's associated with the criminal activity and the drug use and the destroying the relationships. We've all been there and done that. It might have been a different drug, it might have been alcohol, but whatever it looks like, the pain and the suffering that individuals go through is the same. The drugs have changed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, the names are changed to protect the innocent, right? Right, it's basically what it is. It's just an insert here because we've been through it and we understand. And there's no shame in recovery whatsoever, because it takes a lot to admit your wrongdoings. It takes a lot to become accountable. It takes a lot to become honest to where you stop lying and you don't have to cover your lies up and worry about tomorrow what you said yesterday. You know what I mean and when you get to that level and when you get there, there's a freedom in that. There's an absolute freedom in living a life of recovery that you've probably never felt before, you know as being an addict or being on the street. There's just a sense of freedom and belonging. That is really what you've wanted your whole entire life. You just didn't know how to get there.
Speaker 2:That's right and didn't get there the correct way. You know, but at the end of the day, the point is that we got there and that we're trying to get there, you know. But yeah, the sense of being able to wake up and not have to worry about the decisions I made the night before, not have to wake up and feeling like shit because I'm going through withdrawals, you know, there's definitely a sense of freedom in that and being able to move around without having to worry, worry about the police and you know just exhausting.
Speaker 1:That is life. It is truly exhausting, and being able to let that go take your body out of that fight or flight mode and even begin to understand what that is and live in that sense of freedom is huge, so huge, and it's really hard to explain that to someone. All you can do is bring them with you. Do you know what I mean? Until they get there, it's very hard.
Speaker 2:I never would have thought a couple of years ago that I would be sitting on panels next to police sergeants and judges and counselors and sitting in on meetings with counselors and city commerce members and stuff, trying to plan events and things like that. I never would have imagined that for my life a couple of years ago. But you know, that's where I'm at and that's where I'm at today and that's because of the work I put in, that's because of the program, the Oxford House. But that's just a testament to. If you really want it, it's out there to be taken. You just have to grab a hold of it and put in the work and the effort that comes along with it.
Speaker 1:You're absolutely correct, and when I talked to you after that night on the panel, it's because I saw that in you. You know I've been doing this long enough and I've been around this lifestyle. You know long enough 40 years pretty much and I saw that in you. I really saw the sincerity and the genuineness of your heart and you're welcome and in getting to that wasn't easy for you and I know that you know what I mean. I know that's not easy and telling our stories is healing for only not only for us, but for others. Being able to offer that hope for others, to see what the life of recovery can look like for them, is so important, right, and just being able to offer that back to people. And you were doing that, giving of your time freely, and I really appreciate you for that. I really do.
Speaker 2:No, that's no problem. I'm just glad that I'm at a point now where I am able to do that. You know what I mean Because you know, like you said, it takes a little while to get to that point. But and like we spoke about earlier, like I try to be an open book with my story. For so long I hid in the shadows and hid in the dark and I don't need to be ashamed of my past. You know I don't. I don't have to hide it. You know I don't have to abstain from it. I try to let it be a guiding light and let people know that there's a better way and that there's another way. You know what I mean. There's another way of life. It doesn't always have to be just dull like that. We can change, and if my stories and my road can help somebody and help guide somebody, then that's what I want to do when I hear people say people don't change, people can't change.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I've got about 40 episodes, maybe 45, 50 now. People can change. We do recover. People can change. People do change. People. You know, in addiction it's not who you are, it's what you're doing. You know what I'm saying and it's not always who you are. So people have to be open to understanding that and realizing that people that are living in addiction aren't doing the things that they would necessarily do if they weren't in addiction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the man that I am today is not the man I am when I was in addiction.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:I can choose to be a better person and I can choose to be a better man, and that's the life that I chose. And part of being in Oxford and working so closely with alcoholics and addicts in these houses is that I get to see it. Do I get to see some other fucked up shit? Yes, I do, but I try to tune that out and I understand, since I've been through it, that that's a part of the addiction. The addiction, you know. We don't always win. Let's be honest, recovery does not always win. It's a battle that we will fight and we will struggle for the remainder of our lives and pass that. You know. It's just, it's human nature, that's what it is. But in turn, I get to see the light click on in people's faces. Sorry, I'm getting emotional.
Speaker 1:No, it's okay. I get emotional every day. I try to.
Speaker 2:I live the life I live today to help other individuals, so I can see that you know. Like I said, yes, I see a lot of hurt and despair when people come in the doors, but, man, when they, when the light clicks and it turns around, it's a glorious thing. It's so fulfilling and it's so amazing to see that happen in an individual and it's amazing to watch the process.
Speaker 1:You know, when you're seeing the process in someone, it's a really amazing thing to be a part of. It's really something bigger than yourself and it really is as corny as it sounds or however anybody wants to take it, but it really is beautiful and that's why we get emotional about it, because because we've seen it and it is beautiful to see someone come out, that bright, shining light on the other side when they were. So I tell people not to say you're broken, you're healing, you're coming through it.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:And people that have never been there, and they're standing. I say it's a staircase of recovery, right.
Speaker 2:You start at the bottom and you're looking up and you get to the top and you're looking down and people have never been in addiction.
Speaker 1:That fall from grace is one little step, that's right. So we need to take away the judgment and take away that judgment zone and start helping not judging, but helping and I think thank you for that. Thank you for being that helps and wants to see that for people wants to get to that other side and wants to see people with you and bringing them up the staircase on the other side. It's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just want people to. I don't ever want to walk in front or behind. I want them to walk beside me. You know, let's take the road together. You know it's going to be a battle, you know, but it's a battle we can win together if we just keep pushing forward.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and it is about our choices, right? We don't have to be a product of the environment. We can become a product of our choices every single day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the main choice that we have to make in the very beginning is the choice of life, the choice of a better life, the choice of myself, the choice that I'm ready to make a different decision, I'm ready to make better choices. But in the very beginning you have to make that decision and that choice to live a better life and that you're done with the addiction, You're done with the crap that comes along with it and you're ready to make a different life. But at the end of the day, our life is full of choices and in recovery we're trying to make better choices.
Speaker 1:Every single day. And you have to wake up in the morning and first love yourself. I tell everybody that you got to wake up in the morning and fly. You got to first love yourself every single day. You have to choose yourself first. It's not selfish to choose yourself first, because you have to love yourself to be able to give love to others. You have to learn to love yourself. So it isn't selfish to love yourself. You have to love yourself first.
Speaker 1:You just have to, absolutely. Oh, thank you so much, matt, for doing this with me today. I really appreciate you. I knew you were going to have some beautiful words and great words of encouragement and wisdom, which you absolutely do. You're living the life. You are doing it every single day, and showing that to others is a beautiful process. So thank you again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, thank you for having me on and you know, I just want to remind everybody that there is a better way when there is a better life. You know, and just if you ever feel the shame and the guilt or shame, just reach out, absolutely. That's one of the biggest things that keeps people out of sober houses and out of treatment centers is that shame and that guilt. And you know, as people that have been through recovery and that are walking that road and live through addiction, like, just reach out. Reach out to somebody who has been there that can help and get the help that they need.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. That is my purpose, I promise you, is to just break the stigma, let go of that guilt and shame and reach out, ask for help. There's people that are always listening. I'm one of them. Matt is one of them. If you need help, you need resources, you need a place to go, please just reach out. I have resources I can share with you. I work at a treatment center South Coast Behavioral Health, matt's in the Oxford house. He has been through treatment. We have resources. We have places to go and people to send you to and places to point you in the right direction. Please just don't sit around and think you've lost your hope, because when we lose our goal, it's viral and there is always hope and we are proof of that. So thank you again.
