Breakfast of Choices
Everyone has stories of transformation. And some of them include moments, or years of intense adversity, a time when it felt like there was no hope. This podcast, "Breakfast of Choices," holds space for people to share their true, raw and unedited stories of overcoming extreme struggles, like addiction, mental illness, incarceration, domestic violence, suicide, emotional and physical abuse, toxic family structures, relationships, and more. Trauma comes in so many forms.
Every week, as a certified Peer Recovery Support Specialist, Recovery Coach, Life Transformation coach and your host, I will jump right into the lives of people who have faced these types of adversity and CHOSE to make choices to better themselves. We'll talk about everything they went through on their journey from Rock Bottom to Rock Solid.
Through hearing each guest's story of resilience, my hope is that we'll all be inspired to wake up every single day and make our own "Breakfast of Choices". More importantly, that we'll understand we have the POWER to do it.
When someone shares their story, it can be unbelievably healing. And it can be just what someone else needs to hear at that exact moment to simply keep moving forward. So I hope you can find "that one little thing that sticks," along with hope and encouragement to just keep taking it one day at a time.
And now let me be the first to welcome you to the "Breakfast of Choices" community, a non-judgemental zone where we learn from, lean on and celebrate one another. Because the opposite of addiction is "connection", and we are all in this together.
If you would like to tell your story, I sure would love to listen. Please email me at Breakfastofchoices@gmail.com.
Respects,
Jo Summers.
Breakfast of Choices
"Dear Family"- Healing Together-Transforming Family Dynamics in Addiction Recovery. With guest-Kate Duffy
From the depths of addiction to the heights of recovery, discovering the role families play in this journey can change everything. In our latest podcast episode, Host Jo Summers welcomed the inspiring Kate Duffy, Founder of Tipping Point Recovery, an Interventionist and Family Addiction Expert and The Author of "Dear Family," A proven real-world approach to helping the addicted find lasting recovery. Kate is incredibly inspiring as she shares her own transformation from addiction and the numerous challenges that came with it. Kate passionately discusses the deep connection between addiction and family dynamics, shedding light on how family members often become ensnared in cycles of enabling behavior.
She emphasizes that acknowledging addiction as a family issue—rather than solely an individual one—can be a game-changer for many. This insight alone opens the door for families to facilitate healing and recovery together, rather than feeling helpless or lost in the chaos of their loved one's behavior. With practical strategies, Kate explains how families can start addressing the root causes of addiction, beginning with understanding what substances provide to the individual using them. This perspective encourages compassion, connection, and ultimately, a pathway toward healing.
Throughout the episode, Kate shares valuable tools and takes on establishing and maintaining healthy boundaries. Families are reminded that prioritizing their emotional health is just as crucial in the recovery process and that self-care must be integrated into their lives while supporting a loved one. Kate’s insights shine a light on how families can create an environment that is less chaotic and more supportive, ultimately allowing space for recovery.
For those looking to expand their knowledge and gain actionable insights, Kate announces a free masterclass designed to empower families with effective approaches towards addiction. Don't miss this opportunity to learn and start fostering a more supportive recovery-oriented atmosphere in your family. Tune in and discover the strength in community and the power of shared healing.
Connect with Kate Duffy: Website, Book, Masterclass, Training, Bootcamp, link below.
https://linktr.ee/tippingpointrecovery?utm_source=linktree_profile_share
From Rock Bottom to Rock Solid.
We all have them...every single day, we wake up, we have the chance to make new choices.
We have the power to make our own daily, "Breakfast of Choices"
Resources and ways to connect:
Facebook: Jo Summers
Instagram: @Summersjol
Facebook Support: Chance For Change Women’s circle
Website: Breakfastofchoices.com
Urbanedencmty.com (Oklahoma Addiction and Recovery Resources) Treatment, Sober Living, Meetings. Shout out to the founder, of this phenomenal website... Kristy Da Rosa!
National suicide prevention and crisis, hotline number 988
National domestic violence hotline:
800–799–7233
National hotline for substance abuse, and addiction:
844–289–0879
National mental health hotline:
866–903–3787
National child health and child abuse hotline:
800–422-4453 (1.800.4.A.CHILD)
CoDa.org
12. Step recovery program for codependency.
National Gambling Hotline 800-522-4700
Good morning and welcome to Breakfast of Choices life stories of transformation from rock bottom to rock solid. I'm your host, jo Summers, and I am here today with my guest, kate Duffy from Tipping Point Recovery. I am super excited to have Kate on this morning. She's going to bring a completely new twist for the table today. I'm going to involve the families a lot of talking about what she does, a little bit about her story, and I am super excited to visit with Kate this morning. How are you, kate?
Speaker 2:I'm great, Jo. How are you doing? Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:You are so welcome. Thanks for coming on. I am excited to have you. I know we got connected through a friend of ours, brandy Gilstrap, who is a superhuman and I love her to death, great friend. She's at a retreat, leading a retreat today with beautiful ladies. So thank you so much for connecting with me through Brandy, thank you. So tell me and tell us all a little bit about your story, kind of how you got started in this industry, and we'll just kind of talk it through Wonderful.
Speaker 2:So to start how I got started in the industry, and we'll just kind of talk it through Wonderful. So to start how I got started in the industry, I have to start with my personal story, because this was not something that I chose. This chose me, and my short version of my alcoholic addict story is, I would say I was pretty much a partier in high school and college to the point where I left college after a couple of years. And what shifted in my life for about 20 years was I raised three children, I started three nonprofit early childhood programs and my life was really manageable and successful and happy and grounded. You know. That sort of early alcoholic behavior was put aside. I now know and life carried on and what I understand today is that the things that were filling me up my kids, my businesses, my marriage were keeping me from having coping problems or decision-making problems or mental health issues or difficulties. Because when a lot of challenges started to surface in my face the loss of a brother, slash, cousin of mine to this illness and betrayal, and marriage falling apart, kids growing up and leaving I started to drink more, not even thinking that it was a problem. Yet everything started to unravel, and fairly quickly, over a period of maybe eight years. That number is always kind of vague to me.
Speaker 2:I've been sober now almost 12 years and I got sober when I was 50. And the last 10 years were just absolute horror. And I describe it that way now because I have the understanding that I believe I've always been an alcoholic. I was filling myself up in those mid years with life things and when those were gone I really lacked the ability. I describe it today obviously is very different than in the beginning because I have the perspective now, but it took me right to my knees. I'm very public with my story. State police were involved. I'm missing my car, missing a lot of blackouts, a lot of driving drunk, things that scared me when I would sober up, Sure, Putting people in the car who were vulnerable, who shouldn't have been in the car and driving and terrified terrified of being arrested and going to jail. That actual fear actually, I think was an impetus in helping me get better. That's good.
Speaker 2:I was reckless and it progressed really fast the last couple of years I tried to get sober, tried to years. I tried to get sober, tried to get sober, tried to get sober, couldn't pull much time together and didn't really understand what was happening to me. It was making vision boards and trying spirituality. I remember I went to the Chopra Center, Deepak Chopra Center, to figure out what's wrong with me and I would meditate all day long with Deepak Chopra and drink all night long and wondered why I wasn't getting better. You know, I was seeking, I think, the spirits, spirituality and groundedness. So common, Right, yeah, and so that's really, I mean, the shortest version.
Speaker 2:We were now separated and getting divorced and we had three teenage kids, my husband and I and I was starting to lie. And we had three teenage kids, my husband and I and I was starting to lie. I told my family I was an alcoholic at one point which you do when you're coming of acceptance to that, Went to treatment but then wanted to drink again, and so I lied to my kids. I told them. My sponsor told me I wasn't an alcoholic, which I didn't even have a sponsor, and I remember Joe have a sponsor and I remember Joe, this conversation in my head there were two conversations. One was looking at my son saying, oh my God, it's great news. My sponsor says I'm not an alcoholic. That part of me defending the drinking, and then this other part of me. That was like what are you?
Speaker 2:doing you know, to the people I love the most, watching their faces be crushed. I remember having this dual battle in my head of doing it anyway, but feeling like crazy or mean and horrible you can relate.
Speaker 1:We talk about all the times that it's that angel devil side, the good the bad, the good the evil. However you want to, we all have it and we all have to battle that, especially in addiction. We all have to battle that and learn. You know your coping skill was alcohol, but you didn't know that. I mean you just reverted back to what your coping skill was from earlier. So not uncommon, right? Not uncommon. Now that you've dove into it and pulled it apart in every direction, you have a different process.
Speaker 2:Part of the reason I 100% part of the reason I dove in and started to understand it. And unpack is in the early couple of years of sort of trying to get sober, where I went to meetings or counseling or an IOP and then inpatient and you know just these attempts that I now see, kind of all stacked up on each other to create my path. They were all important pieces, whereas I felt they were failures at the time. They were all really significant. As I was doing that, I was reaching out for doctors and psychiatrists. I wanted someone to tell me why I was hurting people. I loved, why I was putting a young child in the car and drive like what was happening to me that would make me do that, because the only thing I knew was really lousy, horrible people do that, and that thinking of myself was really keeping me trapped and doing it more. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And they told me something that I hadn't heard in my early recovery, or it certainly wasn't hearing at home or by my medical doctor or really even in treatment, and that was that my brain was broken and that the prefrontal cortex this is what I remember this guy telling me, prefrontal cortex wasn't able to be accessed, meaning when you're in a blackout you're not making rational decisions and you can't decide. And I would say then why were people asking me if I was drinking like why? That was when my early seeds were planted in my early recovery for what I do today? Because I remember thinking so wait, if I have a lying disorder, then why are people asking me what I, or a thinking disorder? Why are they asking me what I think?
Speaker 2:I literally remember think that's what I meant by this the angel devil, the, the addicted part of me, and the, the soul part of me, were at war. But it was I was being, I was allowed to do that Right, and people were believing me. Just back to the terror of getting pulled over. I remember wondering why I wasn't getting pulled over. I remember thinking in my head why didn't my sister call the police? I didn't want to tell anyone that, but there was this observation at the end of my drinking of the way the world is structured. I wasn't articulating it that way, but the way we're responding to addiction was very acutely obvious to me, and it baffled me. Yet, of course, I took full advantage of why we enable Is that what you're?
Speaker 1:Why we?
Speaker 2:enable. Why we allow? Yeah, If we know the person's lying. Why weren't people slashing my tires to get me to stop driving? Why weren't they disabling my engine? Why weren't they calling the police?
Speaker 1:You know, people have an innate need to want to believe you right. They want to believe so badly that this person doesn't lie to them and doesn't manipulate them even when she's not drinking?
Speaker 1:Yes, and even when they know it Do you know what I mean? They have that angel devil too. You know, even though they're not in addiction, they have it too and they. We have to fight that. We have to fight that with people in addiction, because that prefrontal cortex, that impulse control and all of those things that just aren't working is what really makes us do those things Right the, the family, as you know.
Speaker 2:Obviously you can start understanding a little piece of that, why people do what they do and and make it a little less hurtful and and I know another reason they did what they did was you're right, wanting to believe me maybe feeding that little part of well, well, maybe she really isn't drinking Cause. Wouldn't that be great if I didn't have to face it or confront it? Yeah, and because that's what we, that would make our lives a lot easier if our loved ones were just you know. And so all those factors were playing in and I wasn't aware of them as sort of like we're discussing today.
Speaker 2:Obviously, when, when I was really sick, but in my early days of recovery it was very much paying attention Back to the broken brain I remember him saying the bottle lives in my survival part of my brain, the need to drink lives like, in other words, you and I right now have to breathe. That's how much I had to drink Like, just like we need to breathe. It was the addiction needs to survive. Much I had to drink like, just like we need to breathe. It was a my addiction needs to survive. And then the ability for that to connect with the rational thinking was broken, the pathway was broken, and I just remember thinking or saying to him why didn't my doctor tell me that? Why didn't? And I think we just don't. We're not operating from a place of, we haven't caught up in the practice of how we take care of this issue with what we now know.
Speaker 1:You know there's practicing medicine side of it that. And as addicts, we want a diagnosis, too, right? We want somebody to tell us tell me I'm crazy, please Tell me. I have a lying disorder that I can deal with. Right, Give me a reason for why I do what I do. And doctors just aren't. That's not their good thing, Right?
Speaker 2:Great point. Yeah, actually, when, some, when I finally heard the words from a peer you're an alcoholic the thing he said right after that and he said, and it's going to be OK when I finally heard that and accepted it, I remember thinking so that's what's been wrong. I was kind of relieved actually. Yeah, because all the other things that I thought it could be like maybe I was found at a week old on a doorstep abandoned, like I had these theories, you know I must have been adopted, I must have been abused, someone really hurt me. What's wrong with my brain? You know, something's really wrong. And when I remember when I finally accepted that, I was like that's it and there's a solution.
Speaker 2:And even though it certainly wasn't easy, from that point there was this joy of then. Maybe I'm not a complete loser. Acceptance is we talk about it all the time. It's page 417 in the big book. You have to accept first, right, you have to have some acceptance, and it does start to kind of it's like fully integrated, now I can change how I operate. It can take years and it can actually not even happen sometimes.
Speaker 1:And it can take many, many attempts. It's progress, not perfection. Many tries, many attempts. And I tell all my people you can fall down 11 times, you get up 12, you just keep getting up. We're not looking at this as a failure, as long as you're trying, and that's just how it is. That's just truly how it is. There's no magic fairy dust. There's no lucky charms being sprinkled in the room. They got to have the honesty, the openness and the willingness to want to get better um time, one day at a time, absolutely, and um, if you want it, it is extremely and truly possible. It truly is so very passionate about that, very passionate about that oh for sure, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I love, I love hearing what you're saying because it was starting to click for you. It was starting to to click in your brain and you had of sobriety with absolute restlessness and fear and, yeah, without a solution actually to the problem.
Speaker 2:That's the real problem, which is not the alcohol right, that's one of my big teachings is the problem's not alcohol and drugs. Great reminder when you say, did I have bouts of sobriety? It brings me back hanging on with a thread because my solution had just been taken away and that's all that happened in those moments of sobriety was my solution was taken away and there was no's how you cope, that's what you do to cope and you don't realize that that that's.
Speaker 1:it doesn't seem that we can get to a certain age level and that's all we have is a coping skill, right?
Speaker 2:That doesn't seem that that's possible, right because the alcohol was looked at as bad in those days by my loved ones and by me too, and by you know, of course, the police if, and by me too, and by you know, of course, the police if I were worried about getting it was looked at as bad. It wasn't looked at as like OK, let's find something to replace that solution. It wasn't looked at as like oh, that's your resource, of course you need that. It wasn't validated in that way Back then. It was shamed, made to be wrong. So without a solution, that's a really tough place to be. It is.
Speaker 1:Absolutely is, and that's where a lot of addicts are at. Is that guilt, shame, anger cycle?
Speaker 2:And it's just an endless loop, right, it's just a cycle until you dive in. Well, so great segue, really that loop you just described. In my early few years I would say my first four years of nice recovery I had to work in the field and started taking jobs as a case manager in a detox, ultimately as a recovery coach on call with a police department doing overdose intervention in the ER. I would go to the ER anytime someone experienced a non-fatal overdose and that job really changed everything, because what I discovered is the people that love us are also in a loop very similar to ours actually, and in my book we have a drawing of the. It's the same image I was. I have what I've. One of my biggest wows in the last 10 years has been seeing the family disease as actually completely mirroring the disease of addiction. For us Illness, disease, disorder, condition, whatever you want to call it it's very similar.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And here we are in a loop of self-medicating, pain having consequences and doing it again. Everyone around us self-medicating, with either trying to control us or trying to cut us off, or yell at us, or take it away, pour it out, or search for it or call the treatment centers. Be the case manager of the family, right? We're in this loop of that's it, codependency.
Speaker 1:Right, which is such a hard place to be in that the addict doesn't really realize that their loved ones are in it with them, in a different capacity maybe, but they're in it too.
Speaker 2:They are very much in it and I found initially the word codependency. People were years away from even families, were years away from even seeing that that's what they needed help with. Of course, the ones that identify as yep, super codependent, queen enabler here and find a meeting, therapy and begin to unwind that start to get better. What I was noticing a lot of the families that I was supporting in this program in the ER because I was meeting a lot of families through these individuals in the ER I was finding what they were more resonating with was the behaviors. So I would say something like this was very organic.
Speaker 2:Our work has been created very organically. I would say are you wanting to fix this or don't you wish you could fix this right? Validating kind of the loop behavior that they were in and people will quickly say, oh hell, yeah, I'm trying to control everything. And from that place I was able to get people to an Al-Anon or to a Codependence Anonymous meeting. But just saying you're codependent or saying you're enabling was kind of making as much sense to me as just saying stop drinking to the alcoholic.
Speaker 2:It wasn't working. I was pushing these, these fellowships for families, and people weren't going, and so I I backed up and I was thinking, well, what, what will they hear? And what they did here was, when you say that to your loved one in active addiction, they're not listening to you. So say this I would give people really concrete things. And then, all of a sudden, I'd get these text messages. I just said what you said to say to him and it worked. So it's almost like I went inside the family system rather than tossing the terms out of, like your codependent, get to Al-Anon.
Speaker 1:That doesn't work out of like your codependent get to Al-Anon. That doesn't work. No, because it is truly. When you just hear it, it's just a word, right, it's a word Big thing to move toward, yeah, yeah, so tell me that that would be. This is, oh my gosh, so interesting, kate. I love this. We could do this literally all day. Tell me some of the things that are concrete that you have used to say.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So let me go back to those moments in the ER, what I was discovering when I would engage with the individual. Well, first let me say how we engage the individual in the ER, because this is very concrete and families can take this as a tip. When I first arrived to the ER from the police department calling me, I couldn't go in the room to talk to the patient until they were asked would you speak to someone? Of course, right, hipaa, and you don't just march in. The nurse would need to get consent from the patient.
Speaker 2:And for the first month they kept coming out of the room saying to me he doesn't want to talk to you and I would stand there in frustration thinking, well, he's my brother or she's my sister, because I'm them and I know that we don't deny each other. Right, I've been in the program long enough to know that we'll always talk to another addict. Yes, and I was so frustrated I'd imagine I remember following them down the hall asking questions, trying to be appropriate, because an ER is a busy place, not trying to be a pest. And over the first few weeks what I discovered is they were asking the patient do you want help? And what I was starting to teach them when they let me talk, he does want help.
Speaker 2:He just needs to leave, because when you overdose, your first goal is to use again. That's it, and it doesn't mean he doesn't want help. He just needs to leave, because when you overdose, your first goal is to use again. That's it, and it doesn't mean he doesn't want help. So they were taking the no as no, because the way ER is set up is. They don't have time to get into what they mean. Well, one day the chief of physicians came up to me and said can you come to doctor's rounds and teach us about addiction? And those words were not something I ever thought a chief of physicians would say to a person with three years sobriety. And I wasn't even throwing shade, I was more just like wow, ok, I thought you learned that in medical school.
Speaker 1:Fantastic Right Phenomenal that he was open to even hearing and learning. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:So I'd go into morning rounds and share some of my story. Of course, the rounds are so brief, everything moves so fast in the ER and one day I said you're asking the wrong question, don't. Because they weren't saying yes to talking to me. So I wasn't able to connect with anyone in the first month. So I said ask them if they'll speak to an addict. And a hundred percent of them started to say yes, and so the number one thing I teach families that's very concrete is we're asking the wrong question. And, of course, how can families use that phrase? Because they're obviously would love them to talk to an addict, but their loved one probably won't.
Speaker 2:The thing I want people to understand is you're trying to get them to stop drinking or drugging, and that's their solution. So the first question I like to give families that's very concrete is ask them what the drugs or alcohol are doing for them. Not to them. We know what it's doing to them. It's wrecking their lives, losing their job, causing relationship strain, etc. What is it doing for you? Seek to understand how it's working for them and you will begin to connect with a part of them that actually will feel heard or seen, validated. So that's really one of the first things and that came out of that experience with that question. Some other really concrete things are if someone is texting you arguing, you know what that text looks like, that blast.
Speaker 1:I do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very well. Yeah, leave me alone. You know, I just think of it as like addiction, vomit. Leave me alone. You're a fault. You didn't pay for that thing. That's why I got the.
Speaker 1:Yes, or whatever, on and on and on Blame, blame, blame, yeah, victim on victim.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you get those, you need to think of it, as your loved one has two parts to them, even though they have a whole lot more parts than two. One of them is a sickness, a darkness, a frequency that you will never, ever rationalize with, so stop trying. The second part of your loved one is this If they're breathing, they have this part of them. It might be very tiny if they're really progressed in their disease, this part of them that I think of as like the soul, the heart, the true nature, you want to learn how to stop talking to the addiction, which is the blame, the complain, the justify, the rationalize, and you want to start talking to the part of them. And it takes time to do this and, yeah, and it takes patience and it takes willingness, like you said earlier, but this is how we teach families to start connecting versus arguing. Stop talking to the blaming, complaining, lying, because what you're doing is you're feeding. Yeah, you're fueling it, the addiction you're fueling it.
Speaker 2:It's like corn gas and the guy's saying let him go and they're like oh, I'm right, I must be right. I must be right Because now you know they're to you. Oh, my God, you're right. What am I thinking? I'll stop and people laugh like you did. But it's never, ever. We don't recover that way. We don't recover because someone's yelling us into sobriety. So families need to quick self-identify. What are the things I'm doing that are keeping me in my own loop?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:Here's what happens as a result when you start to pull back and I don't mean cut them off or kick them out you start to pull back long enough to be able to say, yeah, I'm in a loop, I'm all over everybody's roller coaster. Get off that roller coaster and say what is it that I'm seeking right now? What do I need? When you identify the things you need, take it to your meeting. Don't put it on them.
Speaker 2:You want to put it on them because you're so mad and you're so sick of being lied to that you want to prove them right, but what you're doing is you are taking a tornado and trying to smooth it out.
Speaker 1:Right, right, it's like an F5, people Let it go. Yeah, yeah, touch it.
Speaker 2:And when we come up with these analogies, we're like that's what you're doing when you're going up against addiction. You are literally I love the F5.
Speaker 1:It's like stop, yeah, stop. You can't make that a nonsense.
Speaker 2:You can not Now again saying stop like that to a family is also sometimes counterproductive, because if we could all just stop.
Speaker 2:We would. So I preach, I write the book. I'm on social media saying you're creating your own problem. I know they're creating a problem for you, but you're keeping yourself in chaos. And what's really beautiful is not only do you get your life back as a family when you start to pull back and get off that roller coaster, everything you do for change is actually what they need to begin to be able to see the effects a little bit. When we're shouting or fighting back, we're not allowing it. Does that make sense? It's like that, Absolutely. Mel Robbins just wrote the book. Let them and look at my shirt, Look at it. Let them. There you go. I got to tell you, Mel Robbins, and I need to chat because my biggest reaction when I read the book was Mel, thank you. Yes, Because that book is perfect for people to read before they read Dear Family, my book, because that's what we're teaching families.
Speaker 1:Amazing. It's amazing. I have it on Audible. I mean I'll see. My shirt says let them. It's got a great saying in the back. It is so true. You just have to let them.
Speaker 2:You can't control it and, as you know, because you love her book, it's not just let them. Yeah, yeah, we wish we could just let them because, I will tell you, in a lot of families find tipping point recovery. They're pretty relieved that my advice is stop getting in the way by staying on that roller coaster because they want to let go, they want to stop, yeah, but we want to let them coaster because they want to let go. They want to stop yeah.
Speaker 2:But, we want to let them and then we want to let me, and when I was dying to get into Mel's book to see what does Mel talk about for people that are struggling, because letting them and sort of go ahead, do your thing, that is not the answer, that is not what.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is not the premise. That's not what she's saying at all, but let them, and then let me yes, letting you have to get off the roller coaster because it's your own sickness. You're creating your own sickness, right, and so you have to step away from it because you're in the bubble. You're seeing it inside the bubble. Once you step out of the bubble, you see it differently.
Speaker 2:And now you can get some clarity to see the actual situation. But you have to step out of that bubble, right? So we probably have I toss around, you know, probably 25 core teachings that we continue to cycle families through, and I'll tell you just a couple of the top ones. Because you were asking for concrete strategies and you mentioned it earlier. You said if you want, you have to for concrete strategies, and you mentioned it earlier. You said if you want, you have to want it. And we actually push against that.
Speaker 2:So one of the traps we see people falling into is she must not want it. So until she wants it, there's nothing I can do. And those are really two of the top traps that it took me a while to get the courage to push against, because I get why they're there. So what we mean when we say we have to want it means you can't make someone do something. You do need a level of internal motivation to create change and clearly someone needs to walk their own path. But what I remembered from my days of drinking is I wanted it desperately. It progressed so badly I just couldn't do what I needed to do to get it. And what I discovered in my first 90 days of sobriety is my want for it increased once I had it. Does that make sense? Once I started to get sober, I was like okay this is okay, right, it's not boring, it's not.
Speaker 1:There is things I can do. There is, oh my gosh, I'm finding joy again.
Speaker 2:I can still dance, I can still laugh, I can talk to the opposite sex and not be uncomfortable or whatever it is that you're getting through. And so what we teach families how to do is how to increase that want in their loved one by bringing recovery to them. And so here's an example of that I had a young man that we helped and his mom filed in Massachusetts. It's called a Section 35, forced treatment, civil treatment right. He was really really dangerously just to himself and others. So the courts sent him away for 90 days and he was what? Angry Really angry.
Speaker 1:Super fun to have in group that day.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, you're on that side. So I'm on the side helping his mom, and that was scary for her to have him be so angry so angry that he didn't talk to her for about nine months after. I interview him all the time now he's a big part of our company because he's many years sober, and what he said to me was a big deal. I said, ryan, did that keep you sober? And he said, oh, no, not at all. But what that did is it made me start to see that I might actually like to be sober. So, did he want it then? No, but her making it happen for him. And I'm not even saying that that's a solution for everyone. Everything's different.
Speaker 1:Everybody's different. It was her solution for this At that time.
Speaker 2:What it did is it gave him the ability to even see that he could want, and so the point is they don't have to want it fully for it to begin. Understood, understood, absolutely Understood. And I think that idea that just let them hit bottom is dangerous, considering what people are using today. That doesn't always work, and we have actually created a way for people to bring willingness to a person who doesn't have it and to manufacture want, and it's very nuanced.
Speaker 2:So I wish I could just say to you this is how you manufacture want. Well, actually, I kind of can say but it's not this simple and it's not black and white, right, and this isn't for everyone, but the way we manufacture what we want is we get out of the way we bring our stuff to our meetings, meaning don't put your pain on someone else, and it's valid to have your pain.
Speaker 2:Do not stuff your pain down. Yeah, Super valid to have the frustration. Put it where it needs to go. Put it where it needs to go and work on it. Just know that you have stuff as a result of this to work through and when you work through that, then you can show up to your loved one and say recovery's hard. That's a validating statement. Rather than did you go to a meeting?
Speaker 1:Yes, You're on the same level. Now they want to talk to another addict right Now. They want to talk to somebody that understands, not someone that's yin yin, yin yin yin in their face, exactly.
Speaker 2:So our tagline is changing families, changing outcomes, because that's what we're about is changing the people that love the alcoholic so that the alcoholic has a better chance. Actually, the outcomes are quite impressive, because when everyone around you is emotionally sober from the effects of addiction, we just say that right there. That's why I need the world to start approaching addiction. Let's all stop cosigning the problem, let's all self-identify our own stuff and let's all get sober from the effects of addiction. Then who wants to drink around that?
Speaker 1:I certainly do not, I do not.
Speaker 2:It's a lot harder to keep using. When I had a young woman say to me my dad needs your program, she was in detox at the time and I said, wow, okay. She said would you email him Because if he doesn't stop enabling me, I'm not going to make it Now. Now is that her in her sickness? That wasn't her when she wanted to use. That was her in that moment. Clarity, that part of her that knows the truth.
Speaker 1:That was clarity. That was a moment of clarity. This isn't helping me anymore. I know he loves me, but it's not helping me.
Speaker 2:We talked a lot about that, a lot about that she also knew enough to know, though, that it wasn't. She wasn't going to be able to bring that message to him, because the minute she sees him, her addiction is going to take over her brain and she's going to get what she needs, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I love that we talk a lot about that during the day, because and the manipulation on the addict side and the enabling on the family side just is a smash clash. You know what I mean? It's one addict fighting another.
Speaker 2:Truly, that's exactly right, and we're in this dance right, and I've been in that dance, by the way, as the addict, but also as a partner, as a family member too many and what we just like you did with your banging your fist together, is, when you're in this dance, you can change the steps, your feet, and when you change your feet, they will change their feet. Yeah, they have to right Cause and effect.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's just a lot. Absolutely, I will say this I had a up and down relationship with my dad, growing up especially, and I've I started using drugs at a very young age, very, very young, and it was an up and down relationship. But I will tell you, the one thing that he never did was enable me Never did. Wow. Always told me that you're going to get in trouble, you're going to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and that's going to be your trouble. And I was like, okay, I get that, I hear you and I'm good with it. I am good with it.
Speaker 1:When I finally got into some trouble, some big trouble, and was facing prison time, and I called him and my bond was $100,000. And he said I can't do that. He was very upset and I said, dad, I don't want you to do it. I don't want you to do that. You have always told me that my trouble is my trouble and I am in trouble and I need to handle it. It was like a moment for him and it was like a moment for me. But I knew from him telling me all those years, it's going to happen and I'm not going to be able to get you out of it.
Speaker 1:I was like he told me and it just stuck, it just stuck with me and I never had that expectation. I always knew he wasn't going to be. That was, I wasn't going to be going to my dad saying, dad I can't pay my bills or Dad I can't pay my rent, and he just said Sorry for you. I mean really truly. And I and at the time I was obviously angry about that attitude as an adult in active recovery, I am so grateful for that attitude, so grateful because he was right, the way that he handled it. I thought he was being a complete a-hole. Honestly, it was correct, it was the correct approach.
Speaker 2:And you're acknowledging that. You were a little bit. You were upset at the time, but what was the part of you that said I agree with you, don't bail me out? That was the part of you that knew the truth.
Speaker 1:When I made that phone call to him, it was because my mom said you need to call your dad. And I was like what? For she's like you just need to call your dad. And so I did, but I wasn't calling him with the expectation of him bailing me out at all. He was saying I can't put up my house, I can't do this. And I was like Dad, Dad, stop, Just stop, Dad, I'm not asking you to do that, I'm not even. This phone call is not even to say will you? It's to let you know where I'm at. It's not to say will you take care of this? I don't expect you to, I don't even want you to. I need to deal with this and I was in a place in my life where I knew that's what was going to help me. I needed I call it the big smackdown. I needed about four years to have a smackdown and sit in a spot and think about what I was doing, and that's exactly what I got. Wow, yeah, I got what I needed, Truly.
Speaker 2:I got what I needed. Well, that thought keeps me sober today, because I have said to my family if you remember, I told you I had that absolute fear of being in a room like that even for an hour. I tell my family now, if I ever relapse, follow my methodology and my book and, you know, stay clear of me if I'm in my sickness. And do you think I would like that if that happened? Not at all. So what it's? The third trap is it's caring more about their recovery than their feelings. Yes, when I realized that these, my kids, were in their 20s, when I told them don't ever bail me out if I have a relapse, and I remember thinking, wow, that's a lot to put on them because I know how I'll act if that ever happens and it will not be pretty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you already know that, as an addict, it's not going to bleed.
Speaker 2:So I found myself in this long story with them of apologizing already for how I'll be if that happens and you might want to never talk to me again. And then I thought, wow, I'm really running ahead with this. But the point is I wanted them to be strong enough to not co-sign the problem, because otherwise then we're all going down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, everybody's going, everybody's going down, and you can't even the sinking ship can't help the other person, right, because you're all sinking together, and I think that's something really important to remember in recovery. If you're sinking too, you have no shot at helping someone else at all. You can't even help yourself. So that oxygen mask right, you got to breathe it in first before you get to the next person, and it's so very true. And you said something just a little bit ago. That was a great point. You said I know how I'm going to feel and sometimes, as the person, I know how I'm going to feel, and sometimes, as the person, as the family member, trying to help quote, help the addict, it's because it makes them feel bad and they don't want to feel that either.
Speaker 2:Right, that's the discussion we're in. I was in a group one of our groups yesterday and the facilitator was talking about what's the real reason. We're offering that level help Because we want relief too. Right, and when we identify as relief seekers, that's the place I want families to connect with their loved one from. I'm a relief seeker, so people need to say things like, or can say to their loved one I need to fire myself from this role. I'm totally not qualified. I love that I can't be the case manager of the family anymore. I realize I've got my own work to do.
Speaker 2:Your loved one won't fight back on that All they'll do is meet you with respect and it will allow them to do the same. And when you tell an addict who's been to treatment or facing treatment or been in legal and you know families relapse too. Right, we return to use because we get relief, thinking there's an illusion of control, when the here I still struggle with control.
Speaker 1:Of course, that's a that's a big fact. My dad was a complete control person and I always, you know, live my life saying, oh, I'll never be controlled, I'll never be controlled. Everything that I did controlled me, right. Every man relationship I was, everything I did controlled me because I learned that level of control right.
Speaker 2:Well, you're seeking safety. Yeah, You're seeking safety when you're seeking to control. So I think the important thing is that we don't beat ourselves up about it, that we say what am I thinking I'm getting by trying to control everything, trying to protect myself?
Speaker 1:And I've had to step away from a few relationships just over the last couple of years, even noticing, hey, you're falling into the pattern, you need to step away, and I have done that. Fired myself as the case manager Absolutely Takes a lot of courage. It's tough. It is tough, a lot of courage to do that. Yeah, it's tough, it's a. It's a because it makes us feel bad, right, it makes us feel bad and we want to feed that addiction as well. We don't want to feel bad, right. So we got to put what in there makes us feel good.
Speaker 2:When we list out what we're doing to help our loved ones and we discover it's actually helping the addiction continue, it's really hard to not want to start stopping those things.
Speaker 1:I agree with that. I agree, I love, I love what you're doing, kate. I love the work that you're doing. I think it's so helpful, so needed.
Speaker 1:When you have those little concrete pieces. It's so understandable too. It makes sense. It's like the light bulb, you know, makes sense. We have these little group notes that we do after group of what we talked about. Was it helpful? Is this something you can use in your recovery, right?
Speaker 1:And one of my people yesterday she drew the light bulb, you know, because it was like, oh my gosh, it's making sense. This is actually making sense to me and I'm drawing the light bulb. One of the other guys was over there going oh no, I think this recovery stuff might start be starting to work. It's just so funny what they do you know what I mean and when they're all together and when we're all together in group, it's really funny. But it is those light bulb moments in those things that we say I believe in the keep it, you know, the KISS method, the keep it simple, stupid. I try not to put the stupid on the end, I try just to say keep it simple, but it is truly the KISS method, right? And when we think about it in those terms and in those concrete terms. It's like ding.
Speaker 2:I love that you know what that person was saying when he said oh my gosh, this might start to be working. I think how I interpret that, which is what I love to try to do is I might actually really like myself a little bit. Well, I'd actually want a better life for myself. Absolutely so beautiful. And families discover through this methodology, through this site, this way of looking at it, this light bulb, that they actually have a similar need, absolutely loves and turn back and take care of ourselves the way we're trying to take care of others.
Speaker 1:It's my first step when they come in my room is it's called FLY First Love Yourself. It's my first method. It's behind me, so they're looking at it all day long and it says FLY. And it's a large picture that I've blown up with a butterfly on it, and it's about first loving yourself. Right, because that truly, truly, truly, is the key. You're worthy of love and being loved both, and so is your family.
Speaker 2:That's what recovery means to me. Addiction is leaving yourself, recovery is finding yourself.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. What is that quote? Addiction is losing everything for one thing, and recovery is leaving one thing for everything. It's truly true. It's truly true. When you learn, when you learn how to live sober and find out that, oh my gosh, life's just not that bad, I create my own chaos sometimes. It's that light bulb moment. Right, it starts. It starts really coming on and it is really, really, really beautiful to watch. It is beautiful to watch, really beautiful to watch. It is beautiful to watch you are working with the families. What is your time period? Do you have like a period of time? Or how does that work.
Speaker 2:It depends on the level of service needed. So we're a professional service firm. We work with families, I would say interventions are typically three to six months. We have many families who've actually been enrolled in our intensive ongoing program, which is all over Zoom, for three years by choice. Right, they're staying because they found that this is where they want to recover. And we also have our entry point is an eight-week family skills training, video trainings to get people right into starting to change, and a boot camp that's eight weeks long that gives people a live, interactive opportunity to get questions answered. What do I do in this case? You know, and those are, and a boot camp that's eight weeks long that gives people a live, interactive opportunity to get questions answered. What do I do in this case? You know, and those are hovering in the 30 to 40 people attending. So a lot of attention, a lot of time, a lot of time with practitioners to get really into your situation.
Speaker 1:You love this, and it takes time. Let's be clear it takes time.
Speaker 2:This is not an overnight switch that gets flipped. It takes time, it truly takes time, and that's okay. There are things you can say and do and start and work on that actually get quite impressive results quickly. Somebody might already be feeling, by just listening to our conversation, this huge sense of hope and relief. That's incredible. So you just have to feed that. But something I find myself repeating is this is forever, it is forever, it is a forever journey.
Speaker 1:There is no finish line it is a journey, recovery is a journey. It's not a destination, it's a true journey. And for me, for my journey, I have a little picture in my head of how that journey looks and where my happy place is. For me, that's water, it's nature, it's. I see crashing waves, I see rocks, places. For me, that's water, it's nature, it's. I see crashing waves, I see rocks. I hear it in my head and that, for me, when I am having my moment of whatever that may be, that is my recovery place and I see like I see it. You know, I can see it and it does help me. It does help me. So it is those little things, right, it's those little things that can help us along the way. And my favorite little tagline is you never know when someone's going to hear the one little thing that sticks. You don't know, you do not know because everybody is different, but it can stick for everybody. You know I love those, those are such good tools, joe.
Speaker 2:To that last point you're making. When people say, well, why should I send them back to treatment or pay for this, or pay for that, it's been 10 times? Well, because you never know the one time and because it's this time, it's never last time, and all those times stack up on each other and they're all part of the big picture.
Speaker 1:They are and it's what everybody has to remember. It's a process. It is a process, it is a journey, and maybe the first time they came they weren't as open to loving themselves and learning and hearing what was sinking in. Maybe they had their head against the wall and they were just drowning it out because they weren't ready to hear some of those things. Maybe the second time they come they're a little, they have a little more clarity, they're going OK. What did I not do last time? I have.
Speaker 1:I have people that have been in and been out of other treatment centers constantly. Obviously right, it doesn't matter Again, you fall down nine times, you get up 10,. You fall down 60, you get up 61. As long as we're still alive to get up and recover, that's what we need to remember, because the stuff that is out there today is not the same as what was out there when I was young and losing, and I'm going to go ahead and say it.
Speaker 1:Opioids and fentanyl and those things that are out in the world today are serious. They're serious and you may not be able to get up 10 times. So keep coming back, keep coming back. It's very serious out there. So true, so true, so true, kate, I just really admire you and what you're doing and looking at the side of the family is being a sickness. Logically, we know that we can say that, but you're really diving into that and working with the families to help the addict, and it's the reverse approach. Right, it is the reverse approach and what we have been doing may not always have been working right, so we need to look at all sides of it.
Speaker 2:Reverse approach. Inside out approach. I think I'm doing what I wish someone did for my kids. I think I'm doing a lifelong amends. I just became obsessed with studying the family system, knowing I lied to people that I love the most. I watched their faces be confused and I was doing it anyway, and then being told why? Because this is your disorder. And then thinking people need to know this. So it really built itself. These families started to get better. People started to get better. Her Suddenly I realized I think we have something here and actually one of the moms handed me a notebook. She had been in a support group I was running on that overdose intervention job for two years and she said I wrote down everything you said over the two years. So we really took that and built the beginning trainings.
Speaker 2:I mean it started with families, so it's very much a co-creation. It's not about me, I'll just lead it. But I appreciate you being curious about it and interested because it's different and takes a little time to understand.
Speaker 1:So I will say that I will say this addiction needs different. This world needs we need to. It's not a stigma, it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be a stigma. Mental health shouldn't be a stigma. We are all in this together. Addiction is the opposite of connection. We are all in this together. Addiction is the opposite of connection. We are all in this together. We need to stay connected. We need to figure it out and all of us that have been in addiction bring a little bit of a little different piece right. We all bring a little different piece and if we're staying together in this world and we're connecting and we're sharing all of our pieces that we once called broken, they're not broken, they're healing. We had a little wound we needed to fill right. We're not broken. We're healing individuals and the more that we can come together on this, I just think the better the table's gonna be.
Speaker 2:Agreed, agreed. Thank you for doing what you do. Thank you for doing what you do.
Speaker 1:Do you have any words that you would like to part with, or anything I can do?
Speaker 2:to help you. I want to just let people know how to find us. Yes, the book is called Dear Family. My name is Kate Duffy. I'm the author. Dear Family, why your Loved One Won't Accept Help and how to Help them. Anyway, we don't want to wait for people to want it, we want to create change around them and we have a free masterclass coming up on March 16th. Okay, that is really going over. It's two hours. It'll be live and interactive over Zoom in the afternoon on March 16th and it's an opportunity to take all that we've learned over the last 10 years. We've put it together in a presentation that allows you to understand the framework and really start to create change. So if people are interested, that is a free thing to come.
Speaker 1:Will you send all of that to me? I will not only put it in the show notes. I would like to attend myself. I'd love it. You're welcome On the 16th, and what would be a time for?
Speaker 2:that Three to five pm Eastern, and I'll tell you there are three sets of people that attend our work and you probably sit in all three of these seats. I mean, there are individuals in recovery whose families maybe are still not believing them that they're sober or still haven't repaired and they need to build a bridge back. And then it's family members, of course, and loved ones and allies, and then treatment providers. Treatment providers want to bring this work into their treatment center. So we have all three people at the table and some of us are three seats. And, yeah, we, yeah we're kind of coming at it from all the angles. Okay, because addiction's winning in the current world, in our world right now, and and if we come at it from all these different sides, we have a much better chance of quieting it Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and there is a lot of sides to come at it. There truly is, and that's why I said just that connecting with you is beautiful and I, you know I'm one of those people that does believe in God incidences, not coincidences. I do think everything happens for a reason and there's a reason that we have connected and what you're doing is phenomenal and fantastic. Thank you, thank you so much. Thank you Appreciate it, and thank you for coming on today, kate, and taking your time with me on Saturday. I know you're busy and I appreciate anybody's time. I very much appreciate it. That's what we have in this world is our time. So thank you so much and we will definitely be in touch and, like I said, I will put on all of this on the show notes for everybody.
Speaker 2:Okay, awesome, yeah, beautiful conversation. Thanks for joining and guiding, and it's beautiful.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
