Breakfast of Choices
Everyone has stories of transformation. And some of them include moments, or years of intense adversity, a time when it felt like there was no hope. This podcast, "Breakfast of Choices," holds space for people to share their true, raw and unedited stories of overcoming extreme struggles, like addiction, mental illness, incarceration, domestic violence, suicide, emotional and physical abuse, toxic family structures, relationships, and more. Trauma comes in so many forms.
Every week, as a certified Peer Recovery Support Specialist, Recovery Coach, Life Transformation coach and your host, I will jump right into the lives of people who have faced these types of adversity and CHOSE to make choices to better themselves. We'll talk about everything they went through on their journey from Rock Bottom to Rock Solid.
Through hearing each guest's story of resilience, my hope is that we'll all be inspired to wake up every single day and make our own "Breakfast of Choices". More importantly, that we'll understand we have the POWER to do it.
When someone shares their story, it can be unbelievably healing. And it can be just what someone else needs to hear at that exact moment to simply keep moving forward. So I hope you can find "that one little thing that sticks," along with hope and encouragement to just keep taking it one day at a time.
And now let me be the first to welcome you to the "Breakfast of Choices" community, a non-judgemental zone where we learn from, lean on and celebrate one another. Because the opposite of addiction is "connection", and we are all in this together.
If you would like to tell your story, I sure would love to listen. Please email me at Breakfastofchoices@gmail.com.
Respects,
Jo Summers.
Breakfast of Choices
Addiction to Advocacy: Breaking the Stigma-Mike Fox's Project
Mike Fox's gripping journey from childhood trauma to HIV diagnosis to nonprofit leader offers a testament to the transformative power of purpose. Diagnosed with HIV in 1994 when it was still considered a death sentence, Mike initially spiraled deeper into substance abuse—a path that led to multiple prison sentences and nearly cost him everything. His story reveals how trauma, addiction, and infectious disease can intertwine in devastating ways.
The conversation takes us through Mike's evolution from hiding his diagnosis to becoming a powerful advocate who proudly declares, "I'm grateful to be HIV positive." This startling statement makes sense as he explains how his condition led to his life's purpose—helping others overcome the same fears and misinformation that once controlled him.
Most compelling is Mike's explanation of the revolutionary "U=U" (Undetectable equals Untransmittable) campaign. This scientifically proven concept has transformed HIV from a feared death sentence to a manageable condition. Today, with proper medication, people living with HIV can maintain normal lifespans and cannot sexually transmit the virus when their viral load is undetectable.
The Fox Project Foundation now works throughout Oklahoma's treatment centers, providing education and testing services for HIV, Hepatitis C, and syphilis. Mike's approach has proven remarkably effective—while standard testing events might reach 20-40% of treatment center residents, his personal testimony typically inspires 60-80% participation rates. By meeting people where they are—physically in treatment centers and emotionally through shared lived experience—he's breaking down barriers that have kept many from accessing life-saving care.
Listen to discover how a man who once planned his suicide upon diagnosis now saves lives daily, turning his darkest moment into his greatest strength. Mike's vision of connecting every treatment center with regular infectious disease testing represents a crucial step toward ending these epidemics once and for all.
From Rock Bottom to Rock Solid.
We all have them...every single day, we wake up, we have the chance to make new choices.
We have the power to make our own daily, "Breakfast of Choices"
Resources and ways to connect:
Facebook: Jo Summers
Instagram: @Summersjol
Facebook Support: Chance For Change Women’s circle
Website: Breakfastofchoices.com
Urbanedencmty.com (Oklahoma Addiction and Recovery Resources) Treatment, Sober Living, Meetings. Shout out to the founder, of this phenomenal website... Kristy Da Rosa!
National suicide prevention and crisis, hotline number 988
National domestic violence hotline:
800–799–7233
National hotline for substance abuse, and addiction:
844–289–0879
National mental health hotline:
866–903–3787
National child health and child abuse hotline:
800–422-4453 (1.800.4.A.CHILD)
CoDa.org
12. Step recovery program for codependency.
National Gambling Hotline 800-522-4700
Good evening and welcome to Breakfast of Choices life stories of transformation from rock bottom to rock solid. I'm your host, jo Summers, and I am here tonight with Mike Fox. He's the CEO and founder of the Fox Project Foundation. He's a nonprofit organization focused on promoting awareness, testing and treatment for infectious disease. Mike is going to tell us a little bit more later on what exactly his organization does and how he can help. He's also going to tell us a little bit about his story today and how this all came about and how he became the founder of the Fox Project. Hey, mike, what's happening?
Speaker 2:Hey how you doing.
Speaker 1:I am good Glad to have you tonight.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Thanks for coming on. So I met Mike I don't know last week or the week before he came out to South Coast Behavioral Health Treatment Center and did a presentation for our groups out there. We love when people come out and talk to the groups about important information, and Mike did just that and we just started talking and that's how he ended up here tonight, Right? So, Mike, go ahead and just tell us a little bit about you and who you are, your history and how it all started for you.
Speaker 2:Okay, I guess it probably started, I imagine, in my childhood. I don't really remember my parents being married. I grew up in Northern California and, like I said it was, my mom was an alcoholic. We were raised by our mother and my earliest memories are pretty much in the back seat of the car when mom was in the bar and riding home at night with different men you know, riding with us going back home seeing my mom beat on just chaos all the time. I think. For me personally, you know, I wanted that recognition, that validation, just that nurturing relationship with my mother, and I think that at some point I didn't know to consciously feel that way, I think, but somewhere along the line I felt maybe I wasn't worthy of that love and stuff. So I think that set some things in place that led to my addictions, feelings of worthiness and just discomfort in my own skin and I think that's what led to my addictions.
Speaker 1:You know you talking about that honestly. I think that's what leads a lot of people to addiction as things we go through in our childhood and you know statistics our addiction is 90% trauma Absolutely. And you know the self-love and the self-worth. We have to learn that as children to carry that into our adult lives. And you know destruction and self-sabotage and addiction and all those things are real. Yeah, sorry, you went through that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. I didn't realize the effects really until probably after about five years of being clean and sober. Yeah, absolutely, you start working on it right. Right and I just recently, you know, started working on it, right, right, and I just recently started working on and addressing those issues and started you know, yeah, but fortunately I ended up moving in with my dad when I was about 10 and he life got kind of normal.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, I think that foundation had already been laid and those things that led to. You know, I guess one of the things when I'm speaking in treatment centers that I find is probably one of the most common things is the similar backgrounds from those early childhood years.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so many of us go through different scenarios of the same type of thing. We're just not comfortable in our own skin so we get into addiction. We either fit in there or we just were high and messed up on drugs and alcohol. We don't really, we're just kind of covering everything.
Speaker 1:anyway. Yeah, we're just trying to mask and not feel, and not have to heal. We don't know what's exactly wrong when we're at that age, but we know something doesn't feel right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And, like you said, you just kind of got into that the last few years of really digging that up and healing and your body keeps the score it's in there. So yeah, so go ahead. You moved in with your dad and you said life was pretty normal, what's?
Speaker 2:that look like Right. I moved in when I was about 10, and I started smoking weed. I smoked a joint the first time I think it was the summer before I turned 10 years old, with a stepbrother. Then I was living with my dad and I had stepsisters and we knew somebody that sold cocaine. I think in about ninth or 10th grade I started dibbling and dabbling in cocaine and, through high school, mushrooms and acid and just you know, I was a pretty sharp kid. I was popular but I didn't really hang out with anybody because those things had already been set in place and I just wasn't. I felt like would be exposed at some level. So I was always, you know, fearful of being too close to people.
Speaker 2:I quit my high school my junior year, got into the car business, was making a lot of money, too much money for a kid that grew up poor. Cocaine was really prevalent in the car business. A crack had just come out and I started smoking crack, started shooting cocaine. It wasn't long before I lost my job and my license and a grill I used to shoot cocaine with which you'd do half the shot, I'd do the other half, and we didn't think about the things that we worried about now, you know absolutely, and stuff had come out but it was called grid or something like that. It was mostly you know folks, they said in the gay community, and we weren't really involved in that community so we didn't think we were at much risk.
Speaker 2:I had a step-sister that had moved to Oklahoma that I stayed close to, and in 92, I moved out to Oklahoma and was going to get my feet under me. I hadn't been in much trouble. I was going to get my feet under me a bit and then go back home and try to resume life. I met a girl that was three months pregnant. When I met her she was 18. I was 24. We ended up having her daughter and a year after that, august of 93, we had my son. I had switched addictions from cocaine to alcohol. I was an overnight drunk, seven days a week, pretty much drinking every day. I was working at Taco Bell and it was easy to make a living here in Oklahoma with the cost of living being so cheap at that time.
Speaker 1:California for sure, right, that's where I'm from as well, so I get that.
Speaker 2:So I was working at Taco Bell and maintain paying our bills and drinking, and anyway she didn't want to be tied down to an alcoholic. So it was about a week or so before Christmas of 93, she decided she had met somebody and she was going to leave. So I was going to raise my son. I wanted to take my son and I had my sister pick him up and so anyway, I had my son, she moved out, I was going to raise him. I don't know why I thought I was going to give him a better quality of life when I was an alcoholic myself. Anyway, I called home in January of 1994. I talked to somebody. Somebody told me that somebody I used to shoot dope drugs with had tested positive for HIV and moved back to their hometown. I was like, well, I don't have that. I'd never knew anybody that had it. I'd never had really any exposure to it other than TV. Millions of people were dying. Magic Johnson had been diagnosed EZ, I think had passed away. So something kept tickling the back of my mind. Maybe I should just go get tested. And, like I said, I had no personal experience with it. I went and got tested and February 5th 1994, at 405 PM.
Speaker 2:I was diagnosed with HIV and after my wife just leaving me, it was too much, I didn't have the tools to cope. I pretty much lost my mind. I was suicidal. I called my wife, said you need to come get our son. You guys need to get tested. And I had pretty much made a decision that I was going to kill myself if my son was born with it.
Speaker 2:All babies pretty much transition when they transition from their mother's immune system to their own. There was no medication at that time. It was a death sentence and all babies died a terrible death when they transitioned from their mother's immune system to their own. Thank God they went and got tested and all of them were negative and I thought it was just a miracle. I was like, how is that possible? I knew exactly where I probably caught it. I hadn't been with anybody to speak of it. So I stayed in the blackout drunk for about four years, a couple of times with DUIs, and in 98, I found meth and I threw my whole life into it. It consumed my life. I started selling dope, started shooting meth again and my mind thoughts kept racing enough so that I wasn't staying focused on dying. And yeah just. I started catching felonies, started going to prison. Late 90s medicine started coming out. I started taking medicine in 2001.
Speaker 1:So you weren't taking medicine before that at all.
Speaker 2:No, they were the mindset back then that AZT had just come out. Thank God I didn't have to take that. But AZT coming out, it was a medication that was looked into how do you say that? They were experimenting with it for treating cancer and it was too toxic so they basically shelved it. And then when they had, when all these people were dying of AIDS and stuff, they were like the public was freaking out so they just grabbed whatever they could and they kind of put it out before they even did enough trials and all so on with it. It was a terrible quality of life. But back then you were 9 to 11 years was average life expectancy for somebody with HIV Once it turned to AIDS and you were sick and died. So they were the mindset you would wait till the later years of life, till the end of life, and then you would prescribe them this meds so they might live a little bit longer.
Speaker 1:Wow, kind of like cancer, just like a cancer drug?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:They started having some. I think late 90s they started having some breakthroughs with different medications. They came out with a cocktail, but they were still in that mindset. You waited until later on to take the medication. I started taking the first meds in 2001.
Speaker 1:So where were you when you started taking the first meds, and how did that happen for you?
Speaker 2:I was actually in county jail. I caught a felony, I was getting ready to go to prison, and so they said they were putting me on the medication. It was 16 pills a day, eight in the morning and eight at night.
Speaker 1:I figured you were somewhere with some structure, because you know out using on the street. You weren't like, hey, I wake up today and I'm going to go get some medicine, right? So I figured you had to have been somewhere that had some structure going on that needed you on some medication.
Speaker 2:Yeah, For sure. But the nurses at Oklahoma County back then weren't very I don't know where they got the people that were prescribing these medications or administering them, because they weren't doing it right. There was like five of one medication, two of another and one of another, and they would give me three in the morning, you know, and just completely not like they were supposed to give them to me. And by the time I pulled chain and got to federal or state prison they did the labs and I was resistant to the meds, so they had to switch me to some other meds.
Speaker 1:No, so everything had been taken. All that time wasn't even working.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean it was working at the time and it would have worked and lasted a long time had they administered it as they were supposed to. Got it, but the virus builds a resistance to it. If it's not, you want to maintain the same level of medication in order for it to be effective. Otherwise, the virus finds a way around it and mutates and adapts.
Speaker 1:That makes sense. What's that?
Speaker 2:That, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:What's that? That makes sense, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's still the case today. With the medication, you want to maintain the same level of medication. They've got it refined to much better. Now it's one pill once a day and there's numerous different regimens to take. They even have a shot. It's two shots once every eight weeks. That keeps you undetectable, but I'll get to that Anyway.
Speaker 2:So I started taking medication In prison. I was very fearful of people finding out because of all the stigmas and I'd be like, well, I have a vitamin deficiency. My friends would ask why I take these medications. I was scared to death of people finding out. It was stressful. We got out of prison. I did a three-year sentence. I got out and then, about a year and a half after getting out, I got another case and I was looking at a lot of significant amount more time, and so I made that decision that I'm not going to go through that stress and I was open about it Anyway. So the medicine started getting better about 2008 or 2009.
Speaker 2:And there started being some evidence that people on the medications were not able to pass HIV. They were having less, you know. The amount of people being infected was lessening. So they started doing some studies and the one study partner study. It was five years, 14 countries, 1166 couples, serodiscordant couples one positive one, not. They estimated over 58,000 condomless sex acts and not one sexual transmission occurred. Over all three studies it was a nine-year period. It was in sex acts condomless sex acts and not one transmission occurred. In 2016, they launched the campaign U equals U undetectable equals untransmittable. In 2017, the CDC officially launched the campaign U equals U, and basically what that means is we can be rid of AIDS and HIV if we can get everybody tested, diagnosed on the medication where they can't pass it. I had to go to prison three times. Then I got busted by the feds in 2018, and they got my attention.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that'll do that.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:That'll do that.
Speaker 2:For sure they don't play.
Speaker 1:No. So you said when you went back for the second time and you were facing significant time, you decided you were going to go ahead and just share the information and not have the stress of it. How?
Speaker 2:was it received. Actually, I did have some issues. Now that I think back about it it's been a while since I thought back about it, but there were people different jobs, that inmates had Me trying to get on different crews. People would shun me and do what they could to make sure I couldn't get on that crew the better jobs. People wouldn't smoke with me Like everybody shared cigarettes but people wouldn't smoke with me. There was a lot of you know fear among the other inmates.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Back then and I shared a little bit with you. That was really when I first understood the detection and catching it and not catching it, all those things. It was when I was in prison. We had some people in the infirmary that had to basically just live in the infirmary. I think there was two, there might've been three, I can't remember. It was a while ago and we had to be told that it's not an issue, it's not a problem. Nobody can catch it. You can't carry a tray in there and catch it. You know, because you know how that spreads, right. That's why you were nervous.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Because it's just ignorance, not dumb, just ignorance of the disease and how it's transmittable and why and when, and all those things, and in those days you were told it was a death sentence, right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. When it first came out, they didn't know what they were dealing with and they had to put the fear of God in people to slow down the infection rate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I remember didn't we first hear about it in the 80s, late 80s?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it actually came out it was 78,. If I remember right, it was the first case Okay.
Speaker 1:Because I remember the 80s that was my time and my stomping grounds and my main drug use not all my drug use, but my main drug use and all of that and that was definitely at that time pretty rampant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it was in the early 80s when they finally released the information.
Speaker 1:Yeah, makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think it was a couple of years after they found it before they really released the information.
Speaker 1:And so you know, back then it was talked about more in as as it was transmitted in the gay communities, right, and everybody was like, well, that's, that's fine, that's not us, so it's not going to be transmitted in the drug usage world, right, because that's not us.
Speaker 2:Right, and that was completely untrue, right, yeah, it's um, yeah, they say 40 percent of people that have hiv are heterosexual, so it's predominantly mostly in the gay community, but there's a lot of people in the heterosexual community that have it also. Then there was the fear that they thought maybe mosquitoes were passing it at first and I'm sure you remember that and then they found that was unfounded. So once I got busted by the feds, I uh, I was out pre-trial release and I was still in my addiction you know I was looking for. I went to inpatient treatment and I started thinking I got to find a way to have some sympathy in the courts. And it was manipulative, addictive behavior, thinking still. So when I went to outpatient 12 weeks of outpatient I kept bugging them hey, let me speak, I want to share my information and share my story and maybe I can get somebody here and get some sympathy in the courts.
Speaker 2:So I started speaking and COPE was the first place that let me speak and it was like it caught everybody's attention. People were like well, it's amazing how comfortable you are in your own skin talking about this. I mean 2017, like I said, they came out with tech. Legal is untransmittable, so it's not what it used to be, and I started sharing all that information with them and one of the court liaisons said hey, do you mind if I speak to the other people in drug court about this? It was a prime example of man plans. God laughs. Yeah, yeah, I was looking. It was what my whole background was designed for. I mean, everything that I've been through led up to this, and so I started speaking in treatment centers mostly outpatient. At the time I was a guest speaker of drug court to the people behind the scenes judges and prosecutors.
Speaker 1:You were completely on the other side as the speaker right. How was that?
Speaker 2:That had to be a little. Yeah, it was very nerve wracking. I mean I had a prosecutor come up to me and introduce herself and I was just kind of taken aback. I mean this is kind of weird. I can imagine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, wow, that's awesome though, yeah, and it just kind of took off from there and somebody along the way was like, well, why don't you start a nonprofit and do this all the time? And I was like, how do you do that? I don't know anything about that. You know my background and dealing drugs and doing time, and I figured it out one step at a time. I ended up going to federal prison for a couple of years and got out and resumed, jumped right back into where I was at. Consequences, got me to recovery, I like to say, and finding my purpose is really, I think, what solidified it.
Speaker 1:I think that's like you said everything that you've been through got you to this point, and I think that's absolutely true. I think there's a story, a message, a lesson in everything if we're open to finding it Absolutely, and that's why I just think it's so important for people to tell their stories. I always say you never know when someone's going to hear that one little thing that sticks, when an addict might hear something that goes wait, that just hit, wait, know, wait a minute, wait a minute, let me, let me, let me actually listen here today. You know, and we see it all the time. We see the fog lifted, you know, and they wake up and they're all of a sudden like wait, what'd you say? You know, and they're listening now and all of us have you know backgrounds and so having, like I said, having someone come in and speak, information is king, right.
Speaker 2:For sure.
Speaker 1:Having information that can save lives is amazing. That's amazing. You're out there saving lives. That's pretty special.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm grateful. I mean I tell people all the time everything that's ever been catastrophic into the world. That happened to me ended up being a blessing. Today I'm grateful to be HIV positive and people are taken back by that and I'm like how is that? And I'm like, well, you'll live a full life. Now it never becomes a factor, it'll never become AIDS, provided I take my medication.
Speaker 2:I take one pill once a day. I'm in the best shape of my life. I've had it 31 years and I get to help people at a level that I never would have got to help people at and that most people don't get the opportunity to help people at and that most people don't get the opportunity to help people that you know it's. I get to talk to people that are getting diagnosed with that diagnosis for the first time and get to see the light come back in their eyes and change. You know, literally I get to all the time. You saved my life, thank you, and I can help people get on medications. So I ended up getting my 501c3 and my organization put it together and now I go to treatment centers across Oklahoma and I share my story and educate about HIV. We've only actually had three diagnoses. We started doing testing, diagnosing and then linkage to care. We've only had three positives for HIV, but we've had I don't know how many countless for hep C. It's really followed away.
Speaker 2:That's syphilis. There's a lot of syphilis Oklahoma's way up there in number one, I think, for syphilis and actually there's a strong correlation between addiction and these illnesses.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, you can probably name a few of them, right?
Speaker 2:For sure.
Speaker 1:Not only promiscuous needles. Right IV, drug usage Right Not taking no self-care, not going to the doctor ever, right?
Speaker 2:Most definitely.
Speaker 1:You're going to be pretty much dead if you're going to go to the doctor when you're an addict, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Somebody's pretty much carrying you there. If you're going because of all of the stigma and you don't want something being, you know you don't want to test pop hot or anything like that. So nobody's going to the doctor, right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of reasons, right, and so when you start going in and getting people tested, are they like do they feel like, is everybody voluntarily feeling like, hey, I want to do this, or do you still have some people that are like, yeah, I don't?
Speaker 2:even want to get tested Few. I think when I go speak and share my story and take a lot of the fears out of it and just discuss where I'm at in life and just show people how good my life is and it really ramps up the amount of testing. I think if most people were, if somebody was to go in like a health department and do a testing event at a treatment center, you'd probably get somewhere 20, 40% of people to get tested. When I go on and speak, it really ramps it up to 60 to 80% of people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely Takes some of the fear out, right.
Speaker 2:For sure. And I tell people all the time when they're standing in line waiting to get results and they're like I'm terrified. I'm like there's nothing to be terrified of. It's completely manageable. Hiv is completely manageable. If you were going to live up to be 100 years before, you're probably still going to live, to be 100 years. Be fearful when you don't get tested and you don't know these things because that's what people forget.
Speaker 1:you know, right, knowledge is power, right. And so if you don't know all the bad things are going to happen, if you do know, at least you can take steps to do something about it.
Speaker 2:That's right. Hep C and syphilis are completely curable.
Speaker 1:HIV is completely manageable. So with Hep C, let's talk about that for a minute. So that study came out where they started being able to cure it.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure the year. I had to learn all this stuff just recently since I started doing testing and stuff because I never had really experience other than friends having been diagnosed with it. But there's about five different treatments. When they first started having some breakthrough with the treating of hep C, it was interferon, which made people half crazy. It was a lengthy treatment I think it was a year and then they refined it down to six months and then they had these other medications. I don't know what the difference is really between them and the interferon, but now they have about five different pill regiments one pill once a day, there's Epclusa, harvoni, maverick and a couple others and it's eight to 12-week pill regimen once a day. I mean, it's a side effect and it's cured.
Speaker 1:So cost-wise for these. I remember being. This is so bizarre, but I was at a restaurant one time with a friend and one of the waiters had HIV and for whatever reason, I talked to everybody and he sat down with us. We pretty much ended up just having dinner all three of us together and he sat down with us. We pretty much ended up just having dinner all three of us together and he just sat down and he just told us all about it and how it happened, when it happened, when he got. You know just all of it, his whole story. The main thing that I can remember from that was how expensive the drugs were.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And that was his biggest stress and his biggest worry is what if I can't afford this? Where is that at now?
Speaker 2:Well with HIV, they want everybody on the medication. If you're on the medication, you're undetectable and you can't pass it. That's that many less people they're going to have to treat. It's going to be more cost efficient. The Ryan White Foundation is, I'm sure it's international and anybody that doesn't have insurance if no other source, the Ryan White Foundation will help you. Pay for your meds, will pay for your meds. I think I've paid a copayment of $4 a few times with my insurance. Other than that, I've never had to pay for medication. It's anywhere from $2,500 to $5,000 a month, they say. On average a person, from the time they're diagnosed with HIV to the end of their life, was $1.9 million. $1.9 million, my goodness Roughly. I think there's 18 million people worldwide living with HIV. So times 1.9 million, it's a lot of money.
Speaker 1:That's a lot of money, absolutely, so that makes sense why that was his number one stress and concern. He was literally crying at the table.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:And I can remember him to this day exactly what he looked, just all of it, because it was so. It was heartbreaking to me to know that someone had something that was curable, or at least not detectable, and he couldn't get his medication. Like that's crazy to me, right. And so you know there wasn't much we could do but listen, but I still remember it. I mean it definitely hit. So how old was?
Speaker 1:that do but listen, but I still remember it. I mean it definitely hit. So how many years was that? Well, it was in oklahoma city, gosh 2000, and maybe nine, maybe ten, I would say. Does that sound right?
Speaker 2:yeah, the ryan white foundation. It makes me wonder if maybe he wasn't getting case management and wasn't no, he wasn't, he wasn't okay, right so if he spent. They would have hooked him up. He would have been on these programs and on these federal funded programs to help pay for the meds.
Speaker 1:I think he was still scared to talk about it. So that's, I think that's how he ended up just spilling it all. You know what I mean, Because he was so emotional he wasn't talking to anyone about it, and so I think that's kind of where that came from. I didn't know where to send him at that time. You know what I mean. That was a long time ago Now. That would be a whole totally different conversation, right but at the time. But I definitely remember it and he was just the sweetest young man too. He was young, sweet young man.
Speaker 2:I've been going to the OU Medical has the IDI Clinic, which is Infectious Disease Institute, and it's one of the leading places for HIV. Yeah, it's no factor in my life whatsoever.
Speaker 1:So, if you don't mind, I'm going to get personal. Is that okay? How does this affect you now? Like what is you know? There was a big stigma let's just be real in the 80s and 90s. How is it for you now? And you said you weren't married. Now, how does that work out for you?
Speaker 2:I date, I mean I have. It's a slow process. I you know, when I meet a girl it's like I mean I own it and where it's, my whole life is about it. So somebody that meets me they pretty much know generally beforehand. I met a girl not too long ago and we went out and then I sat and I told her. I said hey, you know what I do. You heard about you know me telling you about speaking in treatment centers. The reason I'm so passionate about it is, and then I told her my story.
Speaker 2:And we researched stuff. I show her my phone with another computer and it's a slow process. I mean I don't ever rush anything until I know they're comfortable. I mean it's, but I'm able to have relationships. You know, the girl I was seeing before she's like I don't even think about it anymore. I know I can't catch it. You know, the first time I'm without even think about it anymore, I know I can't catch it. You know, the first time I'm, without exception, the first time I'm with a girl, they're usually freaking out the next day they're like I'm kind of freaking out here, but then after a while it's like every single time, without exception. You know they can't catch it, it's not an issue and I have a total normal relationship and everything's fine.
Speaker 1:Now I know that because I've spoke with you, but I feel like that's probably a question that someone might have, Like how does that work out? What's that conversation look like? And you're obviously very comfortable with it, For sure, so you can have the conversation and it be okay. You know, with it being undetectable, that means nobody can catch it right. Nobody can catch it Any way, shape or form.
Speaker 2:No, that's right. Right, they haven't done a whole bunch of studies with blood like sharing needles. That I've heard from what I've heard. But from what I understand it's yeah, I don't. You can't pass it when you're undetectable. You cannot pass hiv, and not just undetectable completely. When they did these studies, under 200 copies per million was where they the sensitivity of the testing so they could detect it at that time all the way down to 200 copies per million. So when they say undetectable equals untransmittable, that means a viral load of 200 or below. Now they can detect it 20, down to 20 copies per million. Anything under 20 copies per million is considered undetectable, but they know definitively that you cannot pass it with if your viral load is under 200.
Speaker 1:That's definitely come a long ways. That's incredible. Just the you know it's not technology, I guess it's medicine but just the changes that we go through. It's phenomenal that it's that way and that everyone can get medication and everyone can get tested. And for anybody out there, getting tested is pretty important, especially if you've been in the drug world at all right, Right?
Speaker 2:Well, I can't stress enough Everybody should get tested, If we can get everybody to get tested. And there's an incubation period. So you get tested once and then you get tested again, with no risky behaviors, in three months. And you know, it's like if you were to contract it yesterday and went and tested tomorrow it might not show up. So get tested again in three months and cover that window period. Yeah, it's super important. Anybody could be just a matter of sleeping with somebody that maybe said that they've never slept with anybody else, but maybe they had. So everybody should get tested.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a very good point. And where would they go to get tested At this point? If just 10 people were listening right now and thought I'm going to go get tested, where would they go?
Speaker 2:Well, you can go to your health department Anywhere, any state that you're at, you can go to your health department. I'm sure you can look up local testing sites here in Oklahoma. There's Guiding Right. There's Equality Health Group, there's Diversity, family Health, there's Expressions, the health department. There's just there's numerous places that you can go get tested. You can even Google and get free test kits sent to your house. It's just a mouth swab, okay, perfect.
Speaker 1:Perfect. I think that's important for people that are afraid to go get tested, to know that you can do it right from your house. That's pretty cool, that's true. What a change, right. What a change in the world. That's incredible.
Speaker 2:That's absolutely incredible, I feel like. For me anyway, the stigma of that is there. I speak to in treatment centers know about undetectable equals untransmittable. The majority of people still think all the stigmas are founded. I mean, are there?
Speaker 1:Okay, that's unfortunate, isn't it so? The more that you can get out there. The more you can inform people, the better off that it is.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I try to tell people you're not going to generally catch HIV from somebody that you know has it. If you know they have it, you're going to make sure they're on their meds. You're going to form a relationship. You generally will catch it from somebody you don't know that has it. And so when people choose to not be educated about it or act ignorant about it, it keeps people closed mouth about it and keeps them in their discomfort so they don't want to be open about it, which I think in general puts people at more risk.
Speaker 2:So if people choose to be educated about it and accept the information and choose you know, search and the information and get educated, then people will be more open about it and we can get rid of this.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that you're doing this. I think it's just amazing work and for someone to be so comfortable to go around and talk to other people just to try to help you know there's no other reason, there's no other benefit for you, just to try to help you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would live under a bridge if I had to, to help share this information and be able to do what I do speaking at treatment centers. Yeah it, yeah. I'm not a very good speaker, I'm not a professional speaker, I'm very awkward in my speech a lot of times, but I push through it and I get the information across one way or another. Sometimes it flows a little smoothly, sometimes it doesn't, but I think it gives other people Go ahead.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I may have asked you about this have you spoke in the prison system or county jails or anything like that?
Speaker 2:Just when I've been in them.
Speaker 1:Just when.
Speaker 2:I've been in prison myself, did I educate and I did the same thing when I was in federal prison. I stood at a podium and shared all this information and people were really kind of taken aback. And then I kind of had information sent in and it really changes people's lives and this one guy had told me one time he goes. I couldn't understand he goes. We had this guy on our unit and he goes. And you were touching the ice scoop and I was looking out my cell door window and I was thinking that dude's got AIDS and he goes. And he's touching the ice scoop, he goes. It changed my life. He goes. Once you had that information sent in and you stood at the podium and you talked about undetectable, equals, untransmittable and alleviated a lot of these stigmas and fears. He goes. It really changed my mind and that's what I love about doing it. Yeah, absolutely. I think they test for HIV automatically when you go to prison. I could be wrong. It's been.
Speaker 1:I haven't been in department of corrections since 2018 I think they would almost have to right yeah, because you're going to die you could spread anything that you might be putting other people at risk.
Speaker 2:And it's one thing about hiv is it has a hundred percent mortality rate, being 100 of people that catch hiv will die if they're untreated. So they really kind of need to stay up on that. And then again, like you said, you're putting other people at risk once your viral load climbs to a level that you can pass it.
Speaker 1:And I'm really glad that you came to South Coast to talk to us all. I think it was a huge benefit.
Speaker 2:I'm waiting for a call back to see if we can schedule an event.
Speaker 2:You know a lot of facilities have in-house testing yeah so you have like valiant house there's three of them in oklahoma and you have the oats pines here in oklahoma and they do in-house testing. So in those facilities I just go and you know, talk about the things I talked about, and that really ramps up the testing there, which they can get done right there on site. Other places, like Community House, catalyst, we actually hold testing events. We'll try to every 45 days and get everybody tested.
Speaker 1:So when you're holding those events, there goes my brain again. When you're holding those events, it's just for the folks in the treatment center at that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we've had staff also ask hey, can we get tested? And sure no problem. So, treatment's free. The sooner care you know we get them on, sooner care, whatever it takes.
Speaker 1:Are you able to do this kind of testing on a scale like a blood drive? You know how you have blood drives and vans come out and you know you go to a business and they have a blood drive and everybody in the business can come out and give their blood if they want to kind of thing. Is that something that could happen for testing?
Speaker 2:Possibly. I know there's places like the state DIS disease intervention specialists. They have a van and they'll go to Homeless Alliance and set up a new testing Perfect Every other Wednesday or something like that.
Speaker 1:It's just a finger stick to get tested. That's so great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm trying to. I'm certified to do testing myself. I'm a little bit slow to start doing that because I don't want to relive I'm scared to relive those emotions of when I was diagnosed. It's something that I'm going to have to face and do because I'm planning on doing testing myself. Matter of fact, I'm in talks right now with numerous different organizations about me being able to go do the testing myself me and David Weber. I have, that's been certified to do the testing also and let's just go out there and then we refer treatment depending on where they're at in the state.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's a what a great idea. That's so helpful. So after the initial for you, I want to go back a little bit. The initial detection and you called your ex-wife and your child and all of that and you found out they didn't have it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:That had to be a pretty big relief, right.
Speaker 2:It was, but I think I was in a blackout, drunk every day by then, so I didn't. But yes, it was definitely a relief.
Speaker 1:So the blackout drunk for you. Did that start right when you found out?
Speaker 2:Yes, From the day I was diagnosed. I mean I drank a lot before that, but mostly beer. From the day I was diagnosed till 98, that was in 94, I drank to oblivion every day. Yeah, I didn't have any other coping skills or by any means.
Speaker 1:No toolbox of coping skills.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So when did you finally get sober?
Speaker 2:My official sober date is December 1st 2019.
Speaker 1:Okay, and what do you think transpired for you and made you decide it's time to get sober?
Speaker 2:I was looking at life in prison. I was moving a lot of drugs and selling a lot of meth. I mean, it consumed my life and I didn't want to do life in prison. I was moving a lot of drugs and selling a lot of meth. I mean, it consumed my life and I didn't want to do life in prison. So the feds got my issue. No, I went to drug court, never did State prison three times.
Speaker 2:In state prison you get a 10-year sentence. I did 66 years my last time in state prison. Six tens, a five and a one running concurrent. It's like doing a 10 year sentence with good time. I hadn't had any violence in my past. So it took me two years 11 days and one two years 11 months of one day to do 66 years. It wasn't much of a of a punishment and so I was willing to take that risk for the amount of time I would get. I didn't have any trafficking per se or none of that stuff which carries significantly more time than you get at 85%. But when the feds caught me, they don't play, everything's 85% and they want you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, day for day, right, and so you. How did you get sober, Did you?
Speaker 2:Well, I went to inpatient treatment and then I went to outpatient treatment. I had a couple of one-day relapses while I was after outpatient and I called my probation officer when I screwed up. And would I have been honest about it had I not thought I'd get caught anyway? Probably not, but they were UA me six times a month and there wasn't a way to beat it and so I had to play the remorseful card and there was a couple of those and then I finally it stuck. Being clean it's over finally stuck. Especially once I found my purpose and I started doing this more speaking, it was like wow, I'm able to make a difference in people's lives, and I think that really just changed something in me.
Speaker 2:You know my goal my vision at some point is my ultimate goal is to connect treatment centers with regular testing nationwide. That is what I would like to accomplish, because I have people or friends that are still in addiction. I don't hang out with them anymore, but I try to help a lot of them, whether it's getting treated for Hep C, whether it's getting them into treatment. I have a lot of connections now and one thing I've noticed is people go to California, people go to Florida, colorado for treatment, all these different places. Nobody is doing the things like getting setting up testing in these facilities. And it's a prime when I get pushback from a facility saying, oh well, we don't want to address that issue here, I tell them well, it's the perfect place to treat.
Speaker 1:It's the absolute perfect place to address it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's a safe environment. You've given them some tools. You know they might well be on their way to success and recovery and get out and then get one of these diagnosis and it'd be fall flat on their face. Why not address this issue while they're in a safe environment and they have as much chance of getting through it as they can? So that's what my ultimate goal is and I really hope to accomplish that someday.
Speaker 1:I think that you can absolutely think that you can and thank you for sharing that because Because, as you know, I've said already today, I work in a treatment center and you know self-worth of love, as you mentioned, you didn't really have that growing up Right, and I think that's a big downfall for a lot of people and you kind of learned your purpose Right and that does have a pretty big impact on someone when you start realizing I have something to give back, I am worthy, I am lovable and I have something to contribute to this world, which everybody does, everybody does. Everybody may have just not found it yet and I'm glad that you shared that, because that's something I talk about literally every day.
Speaker 2:I tell people all the time at treatment centers I don't just talk about infectious disease, I talk about the struggles I've had getting clean and sober and the things that I've found that are conducive to my well-being and staying clean and sober. You know the open-mindedness, willingness, gratitude and I tell people all the time find your niche in society, find your, and if you don't have you can't find anything else. Get into peer recovery work. You know everybody has a story to tell and they might be able to reach somebody that I can't reach. And our stories are powerful and they can make a difference in somebody's life.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Lived experience is. You know, that is what does it. Lived experience is what helps people right, and that's where the information comes from. That's where the connection comes in. Connection is the opposite of addiction. We're all in it together and you're out there. You're sharing your side of it, I'm sharing my side of it, so I just think it's pretty cool that we get to do what we do, right, absolutely.
Speaker 2:You must have read the book Chasing the Scream.
Speaker 1:I think that is one of them. I have on Audible and listen to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, amazing book Some of the excerpts of it. Yeah, absolutely, Just putting those things into practice, that you hear all those little cliches and all those little things that we've heard in treatment and AA and NA. It's accurate, right Just for today. This too shall pass. We're only as sick as our secrets. All of those things are accurate and it's very true. So I am happy for you that you have found your purpose and that you are clean and sober and alive. I'm absolutely happy for you. There's many folks that can use what you have said today for their benefit, and you've taken the stigma off of maybe just individuals even going and getting tested. So I think that in itself is huge. So I know that you go into treatment centers right now and that's so awesome, just bringing the awareness in and bringing the awareness to everyone while they're really in a place to deal with it. Where else do you go and do you work for any other agencies?
Speaker 2:Yes, I work for, also recently, my organization, the Fox Project Foundation, partnered up with OCARDA, which stands for Oklahoma Citizens Advocates for Recovery and Transformation Association. It's a nonprofit organization dedicated to supporting individuals and families affected by substance use disorders and mental health challenges.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've heard really great things about Ocarta and I know they do a lot of work in the community, so that's awesome.
Speaker 2:So what do?
Speaker 1:you do for them. What do you do?
Speaker 2:I'm one of the PRSs, then I deal with people. If anybody has any kind of issues with STIs of any kind, I can help them navigate. You know the resources they need to get those addressed. I also do a lot of outreach and the treatment centers speak and do the testing events all over the state of Oklahoma and they wanted to just show their support for what I'm doing. Their CEO, brandy, is amazing and just been really supportive and sees the importance of my mission, so she just wants to be supportive and be there for me and they do all different sorts of things such as anger management, domestic violence support, recovery from toxic relationships, parenting classes, peer-to-peer mentoring, resource navigation, transportation support, employment support, case management, prenatal care resources, youth programs. They're an OKARR, o-k-a-r-r.
Speaker 1:Certified yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, certified, and I just like to state they're at 2701 West I-44 Service Road, oklahoma City, oklahoma, 73112. Yeah, and I just want to show my support in return.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I think that's amazing. I'm really happy for you and again I thank you for coming out to South Coast and talking to our group. Definitely would like to have you out again.
Speaker 2:Sure, that'd be wonderful. I'd appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely Well. Thanks so much, mike, for coming on tonight and just sharing really great information. I really appreciate it and we'll talk again soon.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you.
