Finding Emotional Balance: A Father's Path Through His Child's Addiction--Paul King's Journey

What happens when your child's experimentation with substances spirals into a 15-year battle with addiction? How do you navigate the impossible choices between tough love and enabling? And most importantly, how do you maintain your own sanity through the chaos?

Paul King, host of "Family Support in Addiction Recovery," takes us through his real life journey supporting his daughter from her early teenage drinking through heroin addiction, multiple overdoses, and beyond. With raw honesty, Paul recounts the moment he found himself chasing his 15-year-old daughter down the street with a golf club at 3 AM—a desperate parent making all the wrong moves with the best intentions.

The conversation explores the devastating concept of "anticipatory grief"—feeling like your child is dying every day while still alive—and the counterintuitive discovery that self-care isn't selfish but essential. "The best thing you can do for your child is look after yourself," Paul shares, advice that initially seemed impossible but ultimately transformed his ability to provide meaningful support.

Through stories of trauma, relapse, and hard-won wisdom, Paul offers practical guidance on separating the person from their addiction-driven behaviors. His message delivers hope without sugar-coating the reality: you can't control anyone else's journey, but you can learn to maintain emotional balance instead of riding the roller coaster of crisis. For anyone with a loved one battling addiction, this episode provides compassionate insight from someone who's walked the path and found a way forward.

Ready to shift your approach to supporting someone through addiction? Listen now and discover why controlling your emotional reactions might be more powerful than trying to control the addict.

Family Support in Addiction Recovery, Paul King-Podcast Host

https://open.spotify.com/show/0N4tU3L7LE28WcSMDwiYpL?si=3334318b0e144bc1

FamilySupportinAddictionRecovery.com 

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Paul and His Podcast
• 3:20 The Beginning of His Daughter's Addiction
• 7:13 When Control and Rescue Don't Work
• 17:55 Understanding Trauma and Addiction Cycles
• 22:43 The Impact of Relapse on Families
• 29:29 Connection vs. Isolation in Recovery
• 30:55 [Ad] Halfway To Dead, A Midlife Spiritual Journey
• 31:32 (Cont.) Connection vs. Isolation in Recovery
• 35:50 The Importance of Self-Care for Parents
• 41:43 Separating Behavior from the Person
• 45:55 Current Situation and Managing Expectations
• 49:00 Key Takeaways for Families of Addicts

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:12

Good morning and welcome to Breakfast of Choices life stories of transformation from rock bottom to rock solid. Good morning, paul King. I have my guest here with me. Paul Paul is a fellow podcaster. He has a podcast called Family Support in Addiction Recovery. His podcast offers practical guidance for parents navigating the challenging journey of supporting a child battling addiction without losing themselves along the way. Wow, hi Paul, how are you?

Speaker 2: 1:40

Hi Jo. Yeah, it's great to be on the podcast.

Speaker 1: 1:43

Yeah, it's great to have you. Thank you for all your patience and you're from Australia, so it takes us a minute to get our times aligned.

Speaker 2: 1:50

Yes, well, I'm in Monday and you're still on Sunday.

Speaker 1: 1:54

I know, but we did it.

Speaker 2: 1:55

Paul, we did it, we made it happen.

Speaker 1: 1:57

We talked a little bit yesterday and I appreciate that and you know, not only are you a fellow podcaster tell us a little bit about yourself and what exactly you do and how you came to do that.

Speaker 2: 2:09

Sure, well, I previously I did a lot of different. You know occupations, and I was a teacher for many years and I had a startup and a lot of different things. But over the last 16 years I have four kids and one of my daughters she unfortunately fell into drug use when she was young, around 15. And so it's been like a 15, 16 year journey. I've made all the mistakes you could possibly make, did everything completely wrong, and I learned a lot along the way.

Speaker 2: 2:43

Some organizations like the Family Drug Support here in Australia, which were wonderful, and I know there's a lot of really good organizations out there to help the parents, because addiction is a whole family illness. It does affect everybody. And so now I'm in what they call the coping stage, because even as parents, we know that drug users, alcoholics, go through different stages as well Happy user, contemplation, pre-contemplation, contemplation, et cetera, et cetera. And then parents do as well. Parents go through cycles as well, which is more like first of all shock, then denial, and then lots of emotions and then burnout and then, hopefully, if they get the right education, right knowledge, they can go into the coping stage.

Speaker 2: 3:25

That's where you cope and deal with it, and that's the stage that I'm in, definitely because of education and support, and so I wanted to create a podcast to give back and to help parents out there where I was years ago and didn't have a clue what I was doing and totally doing everything wrong and burnt out and yeah, it's a horrible journey for everybody. And so, yeah, I mean I have got a history. I was a homeopath which is natural medicine for 10 years and then I also work on a 24-7 helpline helping parents you know, do that once a week parents of drug users. So, yeah, I really love giving back and this is really a passion for me.

Speaker 1: 4:10

So you said you have four kids, paul and your daughter. Where does she fall? Which number is she?

Speaker 2: 4:16

She's number three.

Speaker 1: 4:18

Number three yeah, so you said she got into a drug use pretty young 15, and your other children were not.

Speaker 2: 4:26

No, they might have smoked a bit of weed here and there, but like a lot of teenagers do, Sure. But yeah, not at all. In fact, my oldest is now a psychotherapist helping young people.

Speaker 1: 4:39

That's wonderful. She's 40. Yeah, yeah, it's wonderful. Do you remember back in the beginning when that first came about and you first kind of had the knowledge that there was some drug use going on, a little bit more than just smoking weed?

Speaker 2: 4:54

Yeah, well, it actually started with drinking. And well, when she was around 14, 15, we found out from a parent that called us up and said, hey, do you know where your daughter is at night? We said, yeah, she's asleep in bed. We said, well, not every night. And what we found out is she was sneaking out and going to local parks where there's like a hundred other kids, like young teenagers, and they're all like drink and then go back home. And so that's when we started to realize, okay, there's a problem here. Really, it's just when she started high school. Here we call it high school, I'm not sure, in America I know, sophomore, I don't really know the system there, but here it's like first seven years is primary school and then the next six years are high school. That's how we so high school is like the bigger kids, so to speak. So it was when she started high school probably fell into not so great a group of people and, yeah, that's when all this started.

Speaker 1: 5:51

And so in the beginning, can you remember how you tried to handle it, what you tried to do as a parent?

Speaker 2: 5:59

Yeah, I tried to control everything that she was doing. I was confronting her friends. I was going around, you know, like even spying on her. Sometimes times I would, um, you know, I, I remember many times just going out, um, and you know, finding out where she was and then going up to the group of friends where she was they're all drinking, whatever it was and then confronting them, and sometimes some of the older ones would threaten me as well, you know. So I just like no, I don't care, I'm just. And then I say no, you have to come home. And it got to a point where she just wouldn't, you know and so.

Speaker 2: 6:41

I couldn't control her anymore, and I guess the key there is what I learned. The takeaway is that you can't control anybody. And it's a hard thing because it's like you know, we always think of our kids as our little babies. You know what I mean Like, mean, like, like, doesn't matter how old they are, they're, and we even say, oh, it's my baby. You know there's a common expression and you still do, and and then it's like I've got to, I've got to rescue my baby, you know. And unfortunately, what we don't realize when we're first in it is like the whole drug use or alcoholism is a really long process and it's a really horrible process as well. And unfortunately, you can't save anyone.

Speaker 2: 7:21

And there was a turning point years ago, when she was around 15. And I was actually believe it or not, I was in Argentina and I was seeing somebody that I respected a lot, my wife's, from Argentina. So we were over there and I was telling this person about what was happening and he said to me she's not your little girl anymore. And in that moment it felt pretty horrible. It's like, yes, she is. And you know that that came back to my mind so many times and actually helped me so much because later, you know, later on, when they're 15, 16, 17, 18, and you know, right up to now, 31, they're not babies. We may think of them, and they're making their own choices. And so that you know, at that time I didn't have that much knowledge, but that really helped me in a lot of moments like, okay, she's not a baby, you know, so she's making her own choices.

Speaker 2: 8:16

So, yeah, I think one of the big key takeaways here is that you know you just you can't control anybody and it's really hard, but you have to understand that that's the journey that they're on and you've got to try and separate yourself emotionally, if you can, which you can't completely do, but you've got to try and separate yourself from their journey that they're going through, or keep in your lane, so to speak. So you've got to be in your lane, they're in their lane. But what's really key as well is you need to love and support them, but that doesn't mean what people call enabling. And look, everybody's different, every family's different. Every family is an expert in their own family. So I would never tell people like you should do this, you should do that, but I can just say, look, this was my experience and then people can take that as they want they might relate to that or not and make their own decisions. I think that that's really important.

Speaker 2: 9:14

But, yeah, you know there's lots of different definitions of enabling, but what I have learned is you need to let them be able to go through natural consequences. So that's another thing, that another big mistake, apart from trying to control everything and that absolutely wasn't working. Then trying to rescue them and I'll just tell you a little story about me trying to rescue. There's like I've got a thousand stories, but this one it's sort of funny in a way, the way it worked out. It's not funny and it is funny, but okay. So I was sleeping it was around two o'clock in the morning, I think got a call from one of her friends, said oh, jane is with a bunch of this gang. They're hanging out in Hornsby that's a suburb in Sydney and I thought, okay, okay, thanks for telling me. This boy was 15 years old, he didn't go to school and he had a lot of problems with his parents, but he would actually let me know what's going on with her. So I don't know now if that's a good or bad thing, because I kept rescuing her and so I got in the car, drove about 40 minutes because we just moved away at that time and we moved away so she'd get away from those people. But what do you think she did? She just kept going back there, right. So it didn't work.

Speaker 2: 10:30

And so I parked in Hornsby and I saw her and there were some people around and then I thought, oh, if they're a gang, look I better, it's not like a heavy gang like you see in the movies, but a bunch of teenagers that might get a bit silly. I had a golf club in the boot, so I got the golf club out and I thought I've just better get that for my protection. And then I was like double parked and then her and a friend saw me and they started running, right, so what do I do? I started running after them with this golf club in my hand. Right, two 15 or 16 year old girls. I'm running down like three o'clock in the morning with a golf club in my hand. Then they go past a hotel and then the bouncers, like the security guys, up the front and they and they stop me and they almost beat me up. They think I'm some sort of lunatic, right, and so goodness, yeah. Then then, uh, they, I told them what's going on and they kept me there and the police came, and the police almost arrested me and then they I said, look, I just want to take her home. And they said no, she doesn't want to go with you, she is okay, she's going to go with with a friend. So i'm'm like, okay, whatever.

Speaker 2: 11:38

So I go home 4 o'clock in the morning, ring, ring again. That was the police saying can you meet me at Hornsby because your daughter has been bashed. And so I drove back down again. And then the cop in Hornsby like he said to me okay, follow me right. And he went 160 kilometres an hour, which is like 100 miles an hour behind him, like, okay, I'm following you. It's like this is crazy down the highway. And then we got there and then she was bashed and everything and I took her back home. And there's so many stories and this is another thing. I'm sort of going all over the place here, but you know, I agree with people like Gabor Maté, who says that trauma is the main cause of drug use and addiction, and the problem is that when they're in that cycle, there's more and more trauma, you know. So this just adds on and adds on, and adds on and so, yeah. So there I was, anyway, running down the street, golf club in hand, chasing two 15-year-old girls.

Speaker 1: 12:47

Oh gosh, that could have went really really bad, Paul.

Speaker 2: 12:50

I know that could have went really bad.

Speaker 1: 12:53

And you know you brought that trauma up. We talked about that a little bit last night, the statistics being trauma is 90% of addiction, and you're so right. When you're in the throes of it and you're putting yourself in harm's way time after time after time, more trauma happens right, especially for women, and I shouldn't say especially. That's not fair, but it can happen quite a bit for women More're more vulnerable.

Speaker 1: 13:16

More vulnerable. Yeah, especially when they're under substances, right, they can just be more taken advantage of, and so that causes more and more right, more cycle, more harm, more trying to stuff, more trying to mask. And the reason I went back and asked you kind of how that started for you and what you did as a parent, because I think, as parents, that's exactly what you want to do, right, you want to go get them, you want to bring them home, you want to rescue them, you want to walk in the middle of their friends, where they're at, which is the last thing any child wants us to do. And so the same thing for me, paul.

Speaker 1: 13:49

I was about 11 when I started using and so I was really young, and so nobody knew it at first, because I who expected that? Right, so I was able to hide it for a little while, but it was the same thing for me. Coming to get me, coming to find me. There was no text back then, it was notes, so reading my private things, trying to listen to. As a parent, you are just trying everything that you possibly can to rescue or fix, or change or help, but you literally don't.

Speaker 1: 14:25

You're not reading a handbook, you're just trying to fix it, right? Yeah, and my son is just about to turn 14. Right, we have a little thing at my house. I call it mom gut, so he knows. When I'm starting to feel mom gut, I have questions.

Speaker 1: 14:39

I'm going to be like what's going on and he's very aware because I'm very vocal about it, and he knows my past and what I've been through and I don't want to see him go down that road. But there's that fine line right Of me preaching at him, telling him what not to do, then letting him make his own choices. So I'm kind of in it. He hasn't made any wrong choices yet that I know of, but I'm kind of in it, you know kind of in that scenario.

Speaker 2: 15:08

So it sounds like you're loving and supporting him and letting him be confident with you, to open up to you, and I think that's what's really important, instead of like, oh, you know you shouldn't do this, shouldn't do. That's what's really important. Instead of like, oh, you know you shouldn't do this, shouldn't do that, it's like, look, if, look, you can talk to me about anything.

Speaker 1: 15:20

And, yes, gaining their confidence is really, really important where I was just you know, trying to control everything and totally doesn't work no, that was my dad too, and it was the control that pushed me out to go find connection. Instead of control, right it was the control that same out the window doing your own thing, all of that. But as a parent that's really really difficult. So you did that for a while. Like you said, there's a thousand stories like that, right.

Speaker 1: 15:47

The golf club and all the things. A thousand stories of that. So what kind of started happening down the road as you all went down it?

Speaker 2: 15:54

Okay. So she got into lots of different substances just a little bit, I would say just around. She was just nearly 16 and she was out with a friend. It was funny because this friend and her mom came over to our place and they're like, yeah, we're going to take Jane off, just going to stay overnight. And I was just like I don't know, just reacted like why are you doing that? Because we were actually going to stay overnight and I was just like you know, like I don't know, just reacted like like what, why are you doing that? Because we were actually going to have a family thing where, where my other daughter and their family and everybody was going to go away for a couple of days, and I just felt really like you know, like you say mum got, I say intuition yeah, just just reacting like you know who are these people and like I really don't want her to go and I was just a bit abrasive with them, anyway.

Speaker 2: 16:38

so she went and then got a call later that evening from the mother saying oh, your daughter's been burnt, I'm taking her to the hospital. I said, well, what do you mean been burnt? She said yeah, she's been burnt. I said, did you call the ambulance? And she's no, no, I'm going to take her to the hospital. And I thought, okay, it can't be that bad, right.

Speaker 2: 16:58

so I raced to the hospital we all did and she actually had like third degree burns on 13 percent of her body oh my goodness what actually happened was her and this lady's daughter were sniffing petrol and she got it spilt on her and this girl said oh, don't worry, because she wanted to wash it off, right, don't worry, don't worry. And then this girl actually set her on fire.

Speaker 1: 17:20

On purpose yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:22

Yeah, yeah, and you know. So she was in the hospital and two months to recover and after that she was on the street for 40 days. She was 15 on the street for 40 days, so we didn't really see her. There was some contact here and there and so we're talking about trauma here, like how it can make you even worse.

Speaker 1: 17:41

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:41

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:42

Wow, so she burned her on purpose.

Speaker 2: 17:46

Yeah, yeah, and you know from that there were some reasons why we couldn't, because there was no witnesses, we couldn't really do anything criminally. But we did like a civil suit, like suing them civilly, and she actually we won that suit and she was, you know, 16 and she actually won a lot of money, like as in dollars, right, that she could get when she's 18. We're thinking, oh God, that's not going to be good. It's like, you know, can't we sort of look after it for her? But no, when she turned 18, she blew that money in six months on buying stupid stuff. But also, yeah, because she tells me all this stuff later, but like I don't know what it's called, but it's like balls of cocaine, said dad. I was using one of them every day and there's like a huge amount. Right, she's very extreme, like she uses, you know, all different types of drugs and she'll go to real extremes, like in the past you know, yeah, so that she was like, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:49

So six months on cocaine. Then later on, unfortunately, she got onto heroin and I remember the day because I always felt that heroin was something that was just terrible, that you know it's like in my mind you try it once and you can never get off it, right. It was so shocking for me the day that I found out she was on heroin. This sounds crazy, but I actually cried for half a day. I just I think everything the burnout, everything, and then I just it's like it was just devastated.

Speaker 2: 19:22

And you know it was probably good for me to get that out, but it was just shocking for me.

Speaker 1: 19:28

I understand Back at that time, 16 years ago, heroin was that was the main thing, that nobody wanted their children on right. That was smack back then. Right, that was like, oh my gosh, that was devastating. Since then there's been many other drugs, obviously, but that was the one back then. That was the terrifying one.

Speaker 2: 19:48

It was, and now like even worse. Of course it's fentanyl. That's really terrifying and there's not that much in Australia as far as I know, but I know over the US. It's really bad really bad really bad.

Speaker 2: 20:00

It's interesting because she about six years ago or more, I remember she was saying she used to use fentanyl and she had this guy and what. Like all the people go and get a prescription and then I don't know if it was some sort of patch or something like that, and then they do something and heat it up or whatever, and then I don't know if it was some sort of patch or something like that, and then they'd do something and heat it up or whatever and then use it like that. So she was like one of the first using fentanyl in that form. You know, like she's overdosed so many times that she must have a really strong constitution just to be alive. She's even been revived three times, you know, with the Narcan, whatever it's called Narcan.

Speaker 2: 20:35

Yeah, no, no, no, oh the paddles.

Speaker 1: 20:37

Yeah, oh goodness, yeah, yeah, yeah, narcan yeah, plenty of times.

Speaker 2: 20:42

But yeah, actually there was one time that she was in hospital in intensive care and she'd overdosed pretty badly and then one of the police came there and then found some drugs like in her bra and actually to her while she's in intensive care, booked her for possession of drugs. I was so upset at that because I think the war on drugs is a load of crap. To be honest. It does not work. Yeah, I was so upset. There was one other time I was in this police station and Jane's like that's the cop that booked me when I was in hospital. I just. One other time I was in this police station and Jane's like that's the cop that booked me when I was in hospital. I just called him out in front of all his colleagues and they sort of looked like, yeah, this guy's a bit of a dick anyway, you know what I mean. You could sort of tell like no one said anything. I just I just called him out.

Speaker 1: 21:31

Oh goodness, you've been through it, paul, you've been through it.

Speaker 2: 21:34

Yeah, yep, yep.

Speaker 1: 21:36

So what's kind of the progression for her today? How's it going?

Speaker 2: 21:40

Well, actually she's in rehab for the last three months.

Speaker 1: 21:45

Okay.

Speaker 2: 21:45

She comes and sees us on Sundays and she's a lovely, caring, beautiful person and when she's not on drugs, she's fantastic, and that's something I would, you know, talk about as well. It's, you know, not understanding the cycle of drugs and what happens, but particularly relapse, right. What I didn't understand is relapse is part of it. So the first time she went to rehab was three weeks, was like a private rehab and I thought, fantastic, you know, finally we got her into rehab, everything's going to be fine, right.

Speaker 1: 22:17

We're done right.

Speaker 2: 22:18

Yeah, yeah. And while you're there, like you know, you know that they're safe as well you haven't got all the stress like, oh, where are they tonight? Are they going to overdose? Where are they. So it's like a huge relief. And then you have all your hopes up as high, you know, as a mountain. Then when they relapse could be a day, a week, a month later it's like, oh no, it's just like it's just devastating. But if you know that on average drug users bollocks, they relapse at least seven times, right, it's not exactly that.

Speaker 2: 22:49

But then you think, okay, that's part of the actual cycle and, plus, when they do relapse, they usually don't go back to as bad as they were before Not always, but usually and usually they'll learn something in the rehab centers and so understanding that relapse is something that is just part of the journey can help parents a lot.

Speaker 1: 23:10

It is progress, not perfection, right, it is the journey and, as you know, we spoke a little bit and talked a little about that last night. I work in a treatment facility mental health and substance abuse dual diagnosis and I'm the group facilitator, so I'm with them like six hours a day. You know talking it all out, you know deepest darkestrets, right. So we want to talk about trauma fueling addiction. I hear it all In it the cycle of addiction, the cycle of abuse, the rewiring that has to happen, the neuroplasticity that has to change.

Speaker 1: 23:50

There's just so many factors in the progress not perfection part of it, but we talked a little last night. It's true, though, when someone is, even when they go to rehab or when they go to jail or prison, you still have a little bit of sense of relief because you know where they're at. And isn't that strange when you think about you have a sense of relief when they're locked up right.

Speaker 2: 24:09

Right.

Speaker 1: 24:11

But that's really true, isn't it? That's a real, true sensation as a parent.

Speaker 2: 24:15

Yeah, I mean, she's only ever been locked up overnight once and that was a bit traumatic for her. To be honest, I'm not a big fan of jails and I think, really, drugs, having drugs and being seen as a criminal, like we said before, it's an illness, right? And so, instead of like the war on drugs which, let's face it, has it worked? Absolutely not the opposite.

Speaker 1: 24:42

It's the opposite. It's money fuel, so it's the opposite, right?

Speaker 2: 24:45

Yeah, yeah. So more help should be going into helping the families and the drug users you know, like you're doing in rehab centres, in I think they call it over there halfway homes or sober living, Sober living.

Speaker 2: 24:59

Yeah, yeah. And then even you know, after that, helping them to get employment and just keep supporting them, yes, and that's what they've done in countries like Portugal, even though, for example, there's legalized heroin. Yes, and they're right, after 15 years, of putting all their money into supporting the addict, even though it's legal, 30% of heroin users than 15 years ago.

Speaker 1: 25:25

Yes, I have listened to the TED Talk with Johan Hari. I show that in the treatment center I don't know if you're familiar with that, but they built what they called Rat Park over in Portugal and did kind of a study with rats first and then showed you know, when they built that Rat Park, that the rats didn't want to use as much because now they had something to do, they had something to put their mind on and other rats to be with. And it's connection, right. Connection is the opposite of addiction. And when we're not connected which addiction is very isolating, right, it's very isolating with families, with people, with loved ones. Addicts tend to push everybody away and just kind of go into their usage because of the guilt and the shame and the whole cycle which is traumatic in itself, right, because we're meant to have connection.

Speaker 1: 26:14

And so then there becomes some mental issues going know, issues going on along with it, because now you're isolating and now you're hurting yourself. And so if you weren't diagnosed with anything before people start diagnosing you, as you're in your addiction, right?

Speaker 2: 26:27

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:28

And are those things really accurate? Or is that your diagnosis while you're in addiction? So there's just so many factors.

Speaker 2: 26:35

Yeah, yeah, mental health and addiction together. It's very difficult and centers like you're in they need to treat both. So most people with a drug use problem will have an underlying mental health condition or a lot of trauma, and so until that's treated, then how are they going to get over taking drugs? Because they're taking it to calm the pain of the trauma, and also a lot of them find a lot of relief from whatever mental problem they're having anxiety, depression, whatever it might be but then obviously in the long run that turns around and then they're not getting relief anymore and they're totally addicted to the substance.

Speaker 2: 27:18

Right, so it's interesting that I just heard about a study recently where they had a whole bunch of overdoses that happened in a particular location, I think in the US and what they found is that the overdoses were happening when the users were in a different location that they normally didn't take it in. And what they found is that it's like classical conditioning, right. So when you are going to take heroin, for example, so it's going to push the system down, right. Or let's say, for example, if you take meth, it's going to push it up. So when you're in where you normally take meth and you're going to take it, your body starts preparing for it. It's like if you it up, so when you're in where you normally take meth and you're going to take it, your body starts preparing for it. It's like if you're going to eat, your body starts elevating, right, so your body actually starts preparing for it.

Speaker 1: 28:03

And what they found is the moment you call the dealer, the moment you call the plug, your body starts preparing right.

Speaker 2: 28:08

And so what they found is that all the overdoses are happening in unfamiliar places, that they like new places that hadn't been before and so like they weren't in that place where the body starts preparing for it and also that has some, you know, put it this way when people leave rehabs, right, that's really important not to go back to the same sort of not just people, but places as well. It can even be the same place, and then your body if your body starts preparing places as well, it can even be the same place and then your body if your body starts preparing for it, that actually can cause you to want the drug or the alcohol again as well.

Speaker 1: 28:45

It's people, places and things and you have to change, you have to rewire every part that's from music. You have to change your music. You cannot listen to the music that you were listening to. That puts you in a using state. Everybody. You cannot listen to the music that you were listening to. That puts you in a using state. Everybody has those songs they put on in the morning and get ready. We're rewiring all the way from just positive music to every different aspect of people, places and things, because you've got to have new routines to rewire all of those pathways.

Speaker 2: 29:10

Yeah, and it's difficult, as you said, because even my daughter's like, but dad, like you know, I don't have any friends.

Speaker 1: 29:17

Like they're the only friends.

Speaker 2: 29:17

I have, and it's like, you know, you just have to make new friends start doing different things, but it's like, well, I feel really alone. You know, I do feel really alone.

Speaker 1: 29:39

And, like you said, it's all the stigma and the grief that they have that won't let them, you know, hang around with people that are not in the whole drug use thing. So we really push that connection of community, the recovery community. Going to meetings, whether it's AA, whether it's NA, whether it's something, I'm pushing them to stay connected in their community of people that do understand them, them to stay connected in their community of people that do understand them, even in the treatment center, the ones that become friends and bond, and all of that, just keeping that unity and keeping that bond so that when they do get out it's not so overwhelming because they still have people that understand them, because it's very hard to go out.

Speaker 1: 30:40

And just now, what do I do, right? What am I supposed to do? And so many of them, their families, are in addiction so they can't even go home. They go to go home and their parents use and it's some of them have been, you know alcohol in a baby bottle, some of them from, I mean from little tiny substance abuse. You know all the way up and it's just, it's very difficult to rewire all of that and people really don't understand addiction. They really don't understand People. Just, you know, why don't they just stop? Why don't they just quit using it? There's so much tied into it Identity, everything is so much tied into it that breaking the cycle it's just a process.

Speaker 2: 31:29

It's a process? Yeah, it is, and it's a good point about community as well, and it's the same for the families as well. What they need is because, as you said, people don't understand addiction. They don't at all. So when you're a parent or your partner might have some sort of addiction, then there's only so many people you can talk to, right, so it might even be other people in your own family. They totally won't understand.

Speaker 2: 31:47

It's like, well, you know, why don't you just stop using Like you know it's a choice and all this sort of stuff, right? So that's why it's so important, because you do need to talk to people. That's why it's important to you know, like, get into groups, like here in Australia, family Drug Support. They have support groups where parents can meet up and, you know, support each other and talk about what's going on and maybe learn from different things. That is so important because you feel so alone. You know the stigma and then the despair and you feel burnt out, and just having you know stories and connection with others that are going through the same thing is really, really helpful. So you know it's the same, like with the addicts and with the parents or the partners.

Speaker 2: 32:32

It's just so important. So I really encourage that a lot. And you know, even for my family, when we finally, you know, started getting some education going to the family drug support, it really made a big difference. You know, understanding those cycles and getting that support and that sort of education how to communicate to them, you know, using I statements, and all of that makes a big difference, because everything that you feel like doing that you think would be, yeah, this is how I should deal with it, is actually probably completely wrong. So it seems contradictory, but the way to deal with it, you actually need to get that education. That's why my podcast and others and education and all these groups are really, really important, because the earlier that parents understand that, then the better the journey is going to be for them and for their loved one as well.

Speaker 1: 33:23

And the parents get in somewhat the same cycle as the addict, with the guilt and the shame and the anger and the blame right. And it's that vicious loop that family gets in as well as the addict and I know you don't like that word addict as well as the drug user.

Speaker 2: 33:38

And I get that. It's fine. People use whatever they want.

Speaker 1: 33:42

Yeah, but I understand. I understand why. But it is a cycle, it's a vicious cycle and until you said you just want to help, you just want to try to do something that seems useful, right. So when did you start really diving in and learning, as a parent, some new ways? What did you start doing to learn some of those new ways to deal with it?

Speaker 2: 34:02

Okay, so well, I started with the family drug support and I started going to some groups there and then I did a course that they call Stepping Stones and that talks about the cycle that the drug user go through, the cycles that the parent goes through, and that's when you start understanding okay, they're the cycles and then you need to. And that's another thing as well, like it's really, really important. And something I never understood is self-care, and it was once I was actually in a talk in a rehab that Jane was in and the counselor there was talking to the parents and said, look, the best thing you can do for your child is to look after yourself. And I thought, thought, what, what do you mean? Like, like I'm gonna save them, like, well, you know they could die.

Speaker 2: 34:48

And it was like then, after that, I sort of, you know, learned more about that and self-care and how that is so important. So you know, I I totally understand that now, like you completely abandoned everything that you used to do and just whole your whole life is just about trying to save and control the situation and everything else, which of course, you can't and just makes it worse. But when you start looking after yourself and going back to doing the things that you love, you feel better, you're less burnt out, you can deal with things better and, in actual fact, you're modeling something that is a better model for them as well. And then, something that we talked about yesterday, before the podcast as well, is that a lot of drug users or alcoholics, when they finally come out of the whole cycle, the thing that they feel bad about the most is what they put their family through.

Speaker 2: 35:40

And so if you can do things as a parent or a partner where you're not as burned out or as affected and looking after yourself more, it just helps in every way. It seems contradictory. It's like there's an emergency happening here, like what am I going to go for a walk? No, I have to be totally focused on that. I'm not going to ride my bike like I used to no, you're crazy, but actually they're the things you need to do.

Speaker 2: 36:06

Going away for the weekend yeah do it yeah you have to, you have to, you're helping everybody, and you're helping the drug user and yourself, and so that's a big lesson that I found as well and that really helped me.

Speaker 1: 36:19

Yeah, you can't pour from the empty cup, right?

Speaker 2: 36:21

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 36:22

Yeah, and that burnout is real. And another thing I noticed with the drug users and alcoholics they don't remember everything that they've done or said to their loved ones. Okay, because they were on substance. They know that the relationship is bad, they know that it's rocky, they know they need to mend some things, but they don't always remember everything they did or said. But the loved ones were sober, so they remember.

Speaker 2: 36:49

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 36:49

And there's a little bit of a breakdown there, right, because it's like why are they so mad? Why can't they just trust me again? Why can't they just why, why, why can't they? And that's where there's I statements come in, right. It's like you have to take your part. You have to take your part. You have to have your ownership in this. You have to realize you might have said you know what is my part in this. You got to take some eye accountability in that If you want to repair those relationships, you may not even know some of the things that you did to break those relationships, right? I don't know some of the things you've been through with your daughter, but I'm sure you can relate to what I'm saying.

Speaker 2: 37:18

Yeah, absolutely. And just on that point she said many times like if you start talking about something that happened, she said oh no, no, look, don't talk about that because it stresses me out too much which is fair enough, right like yes yeah, remembering all the bad things isn't exactly great, I mean as long as you learn from it.

Speaker 2: 37:35

but, like, I separate her behavior from her as a person. So while she's on drugs her behavior can be like shocking, like or or you know, not so great. It just depends what drug and you know if it's heroin, if it's ice, if it's whatever, and also when they're coming off it it can be really terrible. But you've got to set good boundaries and yeah, it's not easy, that's for sure. But you've definitely got to think that is their behavior, not them. I think that's the key takeaway here.

Speaker 1: 38:08

It's their behavior, it's not them, so you have to understand that in those moments it's not really them.

Speaker 2: 38:13

It's just that behavior Set good boundaries that make you safe, not punishing them, but you safe and you know, protecting your well-being and then just understanding well, that's the drug talking, or that's the alcohol talking.

Speaker 1: 38:25

It is. It's you know, addicts and people in substance abuse make some bad decisions and have some bad behaviors.

Speaker 2: 38:34

But that is not who.

Speaker 1: 38:35

They are right, exactly, exactly and that's where they get into the guilt, shame, anger, blame cycle because of the choices and decisions and things that they've done and made, and so that's something I work real hard with. It's just reminding them about self-love, that it's things that you may have done. It is not who you are as a person right and separating that behavior, like you said, and that's a huge point, a huge factor.

Speaker 2: 38:59

Yeah, In fact, one of my episodes I think it's episode 26, it's called they Are Not their Addiction. My Parents Must Separate the Person from the Behavior in Substance Abuse Disorder Recovery, so it talks all about that and it's actually a very popular episode, that one, because people need to understand that it's hard to do.

Speaker 1: 39:17

Yeah, it's very hard to do because you take that very personally, right? Things that are said to you, things that are done People in addiction steal, they cheat, they lie, they do all kinds of crazy behaviors that they wouldn't necessarily do otherwise.

Speaker 2: 39:30

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 39:31

Real hard as loved ones not to take that personal right or to trust someone again, and it's just. You know, you've been through it, so you are perfect to be speaking on this. You work with it every day and you've been through it, and this is something we literally talk about every day, separating the behavior from the person and the loved one's behavior with the loved ones as well and so I definitely want to listen to that episode. I would like to share that. Even on that episode, tell me what number it was again.

Speaker 2: 40:00

I can send you the information. It's episode 26.

Speaker 1: 40:04

26. I'd like to even maybe link that in.

Speaker 2: 40:07

Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah, I'd like to do that. That'd be good for your audience.

Speaker 1: 40:10

Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate that so much. So where are you at? You said now she's in rehab. She is. Where are you all kind of at as a family and how are things going and how is she doing she's doing well.

Speaker 2: 40:24

There are a few more dynamics here, okay, so she has a. Well, I have a granddaughter, okay, 18 months old, 20 months old, and she's actually been looked after by my oldest daughter and her family right now.

Speaker 2: 40:36

So there was when she had her. Things were great and started using meth. And she's been on methadone for a long time as well, but started using meth. We call it ice here. Yeah, Things got a bit out of control and then, yeah, so she's now with my other daughter and she's also pregnant again. So she's 27 weeks pregnant and she's in a rehab that there's other pregnant mums and mums with young children. So she'll be there for about seven months.

Speaker 2: 41:06

Wow, so we're hoping things will work out. You know, like, when I see her once a week, it's fantastic. But you know you, you're positive, but you know that. You know things can still, like we talked, relapse can happen. It's interesting. Once I talked to a psychologist and she said Paul, from one to 10, to keep your emotions. You should keep your emotions quite steady because, let's say, if you're on a five and something great happens, you go to 10, right. Then when you go back down, you're going to go back down a lot further and when something bad happens, you go right down to one and then you'll feel devastated and it's hard to come back up again.

Speaker 2: 41:42

So she said try and keep your emotions between four and six if possible. So when great things happen, oh yes, you're going to rehab, like okay, that's good, you know it's positive, we'll see what happens. And then, if something happens, then you don't go down to one, you know you go down to four.

Speaker 1: 41:58

Very good advice. Very, don't go down to one. You know you'll go down to four. Very good advice, very good advice. It's almost like staying. You got to stay neutral, positively neutral. Yes, it's very good advice, though, because it's very much a roller coaster for the families as well.

Speaker 2: 42:11

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 42:12

It's a roller coaster for everyone involved using not using anyone that's involved in the cycle. It is, it's a roller coaster for sure.

Speaker 2: 42:21

One last thing I'd just like to talk about is it's grieving your child that's still alive Now. It sounds really weird, right?

Speaker 1: 42:28

No, I get it.

Speaker 2: 42:29

Yeah, I've got a good episode on this as well, but it's like this is anticipatory grief, so you know that at any moment they could overdose or anything could happen, that like, at any moment they could overdose or anything could happen. And then you, you're feeling, you feel devastated but you're fearful and you also have grief as if they've died in a way, but not quite. It sounds weird, right? No, I get it such a horrible, horrible feeling. It's like on, it's like as if your child is dying every day and and you have that fear and that anticipation about it.

Speaker 2: 43:01

I think it's probably the most horrible thing that I lived through in this whole thing. It's just, you know, and you can't really talk to anyone about it, really, unless you're in those groups, but it's just such a devastating feeling that only a family or a parent that's going through that would really understand that. And it's so difficult. It's like ambiguous loss. You know it's this pain you have inside that is grief, is pain that you just it's so hard to get rid of, and it's something that you have to work on a lot and that's going back to self-care and getting support and maybe getting counseling and, you know, working on that, because I think that was the worst part of the whole thing feeling that anticipatory grief.

Speaker 1: 43:48

So, as you're talking about this, I'm getting a little emotional because I can tell you that is what I put my family through. That is exactly what I put my dad through. There was a time, a period, where he wasn't speaking to me. He just didn't know what to do with me anymore, and it was easier. That was his boundary. You know, I just can't, I just can't right now. And so for me I got very angry too and very. It was almost like somebody said you're dead to me. And so there was that period where I was like, well, he doesn't care about me anyway, you know, but really that was a boundary that he needed to set, because I was a hot mess, you know. But it set something off in me as well. And then there was just kind of that how are we going to get back from that? You know?

Speaker 2: 44:34

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:35

And I can 100% feel you when you say that and when you talk about that.

Speaker 2: 44:41

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:42

I'm sure a lot of parents listening right now are feeling exactly like they totally understand. Yeah, that's tough.

Speaker 2: 44:50

Look there's hope, there's hope. And look the figures are at least 70% of people recover, which is great. It can be a long time. Some people don't. But you know what? Sometimes they can just live with the drug use and whatever works for them and their families. You know, like I said, everyone's the expert in their own family and it's just being able to manage it. And, like I also believe in harm minimization. So you know, it's like keeping them alive until they can, you know, come to realization or do something about it or get the help that they need.

Speaker 1: 45:22

Yeah, it's really important. It is so. How long has it been since she has lived with you?

Speaker 2: 45:28

Well, we have what's called a tiny home out the back of our house. Okay, so she's been living there for a couple of years, okay. Yeah, we got it built for her.

Speaker 1: 45:37

Okay, yeah, especially when she got pregnant. Okay, it built for her. Okay, yeah, especially when she got pregnant. Okay, so you were able to bring her back and felt comfortable enough to do that there was some separation with some separate, absolutely 100 fair right with some separation because, um, she, like you said, she's not a child and those are her decisions to make, right?

Speaker 2: 45:58

um, but you did give her a safe space, yeah yeah, and we were there, just just walk, you know, 20 meters and there's our back door, and so we were helping her a lot with the, the baby and all of that, so it was good to have a close by. But then when she started using again, and particularly ice, you know, it got really difficult, really quickly it's a real quick one.

Speaker 1: 46:19

There's children involved.

Speaker 2: 46:21

That has to be totally all about the child, their safety.

Speaker 1: 46:25

Yeah, you can't have paraphernalia around and somebody not paying attention or watching a child Exactly.

Speaker 2: 46:30

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:31

Well, it sounds like you have been through it and she has been through it and you're handling it Like you are, like your emotional level, emotional level, that four to six. I feel that I feel like you have come to terms in a way.

Speaker 2: 46:46

I guess I have absolutely it's taken 15 years, joe, 15 years, but it's it's a much better space to be in. You know it is what it is. That's her journey. That's you know who she is. My journey is separate from that. I'll love and support her always, but I can't tie my emotions to her journey. I think it's a really important takeaway for parents overall. It's really hard to do that, but until you do, you won't get any peace and you won't be able to cope that well.

Speaker 1: 47:17

So for any parents or loved ones listening, I think some of the key takeaways here have been support. You need support. You need to understand that it's an illness, that is a progression, and it's progress, not perfection. They didn't get there overnight. They're not going to get better overnight, but getting some support as a family unit, as a parent, loved ones, and being able to have someone to share experiences with and talk to and get through it together is highly important.

Speaker 2: 47:47

Yeah, absolutely. I think they're the key takeaways, look after yourself. You know, don't try and control it. Get the support you need yeah, it's really vital, really important and get the education about you. Know the cycles that you and they go through as well, so you can understand them.

Speaker 1: 48:04

Do you all have Al-Anon there as well? I'm sure you do.

Speaker 2: 48:06

Yeah, yeah, I haven't been involved personally because I've mainly been involved with the family drug support, but there's definitely Al-Anon here. Yeah, okay, yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:15

Okay, and that's something we have here as well, but there's so many different supports, you just have to look for them. Especially now with social media, you can put some feelers out pretty quickly and kind of align yourself with what feels comfortable.

Speaker 2: 48:30

What works for you? Everyone's different, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:34

Absolutely. I appreciate you so much today, paul, and coming on and sharing not only just what you have learned that's knowledge but what you have been through and been able to apply. That knowledge is wisdom, you know, and being able to share some of that with anyone who might be struggling right Just hearing the one little thing. We hope that sticks today and being able to offer some of that support.

Speaker 2: 48:59

I really appreciate that, Jo. It's great to be on your podcast and any parents out there or partners that feel like they could be helped by listening to a podcast with somebody that's been through what they're going through now, I invite them to listen to my show.

Speaker 1: 49:15

I love that so much, paul, and I will include your show in the show notes as well, a link to your show as well, and anything that you would like me to include.

Speaker 2: 49:25

Sure no, that's all.

Speaker 1: 49:27

Okay, we'll add that at the bottom. Again, I really appreciate you coming on today and taking your time in an early morning.

Speaker 2: 49:33

Yeah, Thanks so much, Joanne. Thanks for all you're doing as well. These stories are really important.

Speaker 1: 49:37

Absolutely Just to get the word out and offer some hope and encouragement. That's what we're here to do.

Speaker 2: 49:44

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 49:45

Okay, thank you so much, paul.

Speaker 2: 49:46

Thank you.