From Trauma to Transformation-Breaking Cycles: How Second Chances Change Lives with Guest Greg Van Ness

What happens when trauma remains unspoken for nearly two decades? In this raw, powerful conversation, Greg Van Ness shares his journey from military service to finding purpose as Program Director at Oklahoma State University's Center for Social Innovation.

Greg candidly reveals the aftermath of an assault during his Air Force service—an event he kept secret for 18 years. The consequences were devastating: anger issues, hypervigilance, depression, and suicidal ideation that threatened to consume him. His story illuminates the particular challenges male assault survivors face in military environments, where such experiences are often dismissed or ignored entirely.

After leaving the military in 2010, Greg's path was marked by professional instability despite earning advanced degrees. The turning point came through VA support, therapy, and eventually discovering meaningful work helping others rebuild their lives. Today, Greg leads CFSI, a program that provides people with criminal backgrounds, addiction histories, and experiences of homelessness the opportunity to pursue higher education and career pathways.

The conversation turns to passionate advocacy as Greg and host Jo discuss the contradictions in our approach to rehabilitation. "We send people to prison saying it's reformatory," Greg explains, "but then when they get out with skills and education, society says 'Sorry, we can't hire felons.'" Through CFSI, Greg witnesses daily transformations as students embrace their potential and identity as college students—many never having imagined higher education would be possible for them.

Greg's philosophy shines through every aspect of his work: "I am a believer that people should get a second chance, a third chance, a 600th chance if they're willing, every time they fall, to get back up." His story reminds us that healing requires both personal effort and community support, and that when we invest in people's potential rather than punishing their past, genuine transformation becomes possible.

Have you experienced trauma or struggle with addiction? Reach out for help—as Greg's journey shows, recovery may be difficult, but you don't have to walk that path alone.

Chapters

• 0:00 Meeting Greg Van Ness
• 4:28 Trauma and Military Experience
• 17:25 The Struggle After Service
• 30:36 Finding Purpose at CFSI
• 44:13 The Prison System's Failures
• 57:16 Advocating for Real Reform

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:12

Good morning and welcome to Breakfast of Choices life stories of transformation from rock bottom to rock solid. I have my guest, greg Van Ness, with me today, and I met Greg at OSU at a program that's called CFSI Center for Social Innovation, and Greg is a program director.

Speaker 2: 1:34

I am. I'm the program director, right.

Speaker 1: 1:36

And Greg and I had a good time. We sat, we visited. He was gracious enough to invite me back to come again, so it couldn't have went too bad.

Speaker 2: 1:45

That went pretty well. It went pretty well, I think.

Speaker 1: 1:47

And then we talked a little bit about the podcast and Greg coming on. So here he is today and I'm going to let Greg share his recovery story. Good morning, greg.

Speaker 2: 1:58

Good morning Jo. How are you?

Speaker 1: 2:00

I am doing great Glad to have you here today. I really enjoyed meeting you, so I'm looking forward to this episode of your journey.

Speaker 2: 2:10

Awesome. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 2:11

Absolutely, absolutely. So, like I said, we met at the Center for Social Innovation. Yes, and I know you will get to that and tell us about that. But before we get to that part, how about you go ahead and just tell us a little bit about how your journey started?

Speaker 2: 2:27

My journey started way back in 2005. I had decided that I was going to join the Air Force. I was about 23 at the time and I really just had no prospects to go in my life. I had no real places that I saw myself going, other than possibly being a statistic that I didn't want to be A poor kid in a poor neighborhood, growing up and struggling. I joined the Air Force and I was in it from 2006, 2010, here at Oklahoma at Tinker Air Force Base, and during that time I met my now wife, amy, and we have two kids, emma and Aiden. And my journey, my recovery journey, started way back in 2000. My wife and I had just gotten married.

Speaker 2: 3:18

I had the unfortunate event occur between me and another airman that kind of disrupted my life. There's a lot of taboo about men coming forward and saying that they were assaulted, because men don't get assaulted right. It's just not a thing, but it is and I can absolutely attest to it. So the event that I referred to it as the event occurred and it kind of reshaped me in that I was paranoid more when we were out in public. I had anger issues, I suffered anxiety and communication issues with my wife, my children.

Speaker 2: 3:58

I had a short temper all the time, so it was, they didn't get the brunt of it, but it was life in general that would I'd blow up at and my wife would see it and see me kind of go down a rabbit hole that I didn't want to go down. So it was kind of it was a little difficult for me to roll through that and I ended up jumping from job to job after the Air Force finally landing in a couple places, but still having that level of depression, hypervigilance and suicidal, unfortunate ideations. I had them for a really long time and about, oh gosh, six years ago, seven years ago, I finally reached out to the VA and I started doing all this stuff the VA to get myself taken care of and to, you know, to talk to someone.

Speaker 1: 4:45

Greg, did you, did you immediately share that event with anybody?

Speaker 2: 4:51

No, no, no, no no, no, but she didn't know about it until I filed for the uh, the VA, so that and that was 20, oh gosh 2021,? Nobody. She didn't know about it until I filed for the VA and that was 20, gosh. 2021, 2022.

Speaker 1: 5:00

So you kept that completely to yourself.

Speaker 2: 5:03

For about 18 years.

Speaker 1: 5:05

And looking back on that after you shared the event, I just want people to understand this. Do you wish you would have shared it sooner?

Speaker 2: 5:13

Well, absolutely I wish I would. So here's what happened. I wish I would have shared it sooner, at least with my wife. I had attempted to share it with a counselor on the Air Force Base. I had started to go to therapy because I felt like I needed to talk to somebody.

Speaker 2: 5:29

And you know, they tell you in the military that if you have issues, if you have a problem, if somebody does something to you, if you get harmed, you get hurt in a certain way, we have a phone number, we'll get you counseling, all that stuff, and they tell you that it's all private. They tell you that it's all confidential, that nobody's going to know. But I can tell you, joe, that I knew which women on our Air Force Base had come to Tinker who had been sexually assaulted and that they had been stationed here now and I had never talked to them. I didn't have in-depth crying conversations, learning about the struggles of their soul. It was sergeants or other airmen being like oh, don't talk to Joe, because you can't be friendly with her or she'll think that you're trying to sleep with her and she'll call you out. And I thought that was wild, because I would then get to know these people and I never got that from them, yeah, so.

Speaker 2: 6:22

So sexual assault does occur and it is not something that the military does very much to try and help. It just kind of shuffles people to different places you may get. Their biggest thing is they don't like it when they find out that you've committed adultery. If you commit adultery you lose a full rank, and we had a gentleman that I worked with who was a staff sergeant and then a couple of months after he got found out he was, he was dropped down to a senior airman. But they don't, they don't want to do very much for that, because, especially when, if it happens to men, because it doesn't happen to men, it's, it's not a thing.

Speaker 1: 6:55

It's a huge thing.

Speaker 2: 6:56

It's a huge thing.

Speaker 1: 6:57

You know it's a very big thing, and you're actually, Greg, not the first one to share this with me.

Speaker 2: 7:02

You know it's wild, because I was not expecting to share this at all with you or reviewing public, but it's something that's part of my recovery is to not let it be something that I don't talk about. Yes, so.

Speaker 1: 7:17

It's so helpful, because part of that not talking about it is making you feel more alone, more alone, more isolated. Right, and that's what we don't need. Right, because there's nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong, there's no shame, and there's no guilt or should not be associated with that when something happens to us Right. Right, but that's not the way we internalize it.

Speaker 2: 7:39

No.

Speaker 1: 7:40

I really understand that and I know from women that I've spoke to in the military and correct me if I'm wrong, but what usually happens is they're the ones that get moved.

Speaker 2: 7:51

Yes.

Speaker 1: 7:53

And so something happens to them and because they spoke on it, it hurts their career and they're the ones that get moved. And because they spoke on it, it hurts their career.

Speaker 2: 8:00

And they're the ones that get moved and they're the ones that get the whispers told about them. You know, don't talk to her, don't be too friendly to her, she'll get you fired or she'll get you in trouble.

Speaker 1: 8:09

And that's very unfortunate because that keeps people, not just in the military but in the world, from wanting to share their stories Very much. Because you know it keeps that stigma going and it's very, very unfortunate. So I really, really thank you for sharing that, because I think it's really important to let people know they're not alone. You do need to tell someone you do need to share, and if there's any young people listening teens please know it is okay to share it and it is not your fault.

Speaker 2: 8:41

That was the hardest part for me to not feel like it was somehow my fault or I should have said something or I should have done something.

Speaker 2: 8:48

And obviously there's a whole story that goes along with what occurred. But therapy helps. It doesn't do it in the way that you think where you're going to walk in, sit on the couch, cry for an hour and you walk out everything's fine. You often walk out exhausted emotionally, mentally, physically exhausted because you just relived the event, the occurrence, the thing that happened in your life. And you're having to relive it in front of a total stranger who then turns around and gives you either feedback or says, hey, we're going to try this or we're going to go into this type of therapy, but you're sitting there with a complete stranger as they judge and listen to you. So just getting to that level is commendable, something that people should at least acknowledge that, hey, I sat down and I've started this journey, and there's going to be times where you don't want to talk to the therapy, where you, oh, I'm sick and that's okay, but you're just delaying your recovery situation, greg, just to share that with you.

Speaker 1: 9:57

So I do know what that's like and I do know what that feels like to just hold it and not want to say anything. For a lot of reasons repercussion, judgment so many reasons, there's just so many reasons. A list and you can think of a new one every day but it's really important to do that for healing, just for healing. So I just thank you for letting me touch on that, because the whole premise of this being able to share our stories is for hope and healing and encouragement and to let people know they're not alone. So thank you for that.

Speaker 2: 10:23

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 10:24

You were saying that you started just kind of going from job to job. Did you immediately get out of the military, Like when it was time? I know you can't just be like I'm gone. But I mean you can, but then it's like people start trying to arrest you for some reason.

Speaker 2: 10:41

Yeah, it's, it's looked down upon slightly. Uh. So 2010 came and I did not reenlist. I just, I just couldn't do it. Uh, b we you know, my wife and I uh, I would try and find jobs that would, uh, keep the lights on more than things that I really truly wanted to do. I tried to be a patrol officer with the police department in Oklahoma City and that did not work out and there was several other jobs that I was like, okay, this is where I want to go, this is what I want to do, and you know, six months a year and I would no longer be with them.

Speaker 2: 11:13

And then it's hard years later when you're trying to find something real and something that's going to be filling and do more than just keep your lights on, and people look at your resume and, wow, your job, hop a lot.

Speaker 2: 11:26

You were here for a year, you were there for six months, you were here for a year and you can have every point of the resume that they want to have, everything they've ever needed for an employee. But they look at that and they go he's a flight risk, if there's no other, better way to phrase it someone that'll jump around, not stay in one spot and it was hard for me to want to. It was hard for me to want to stay. My wife ended up having to be, which is you know, this isn't me being sexist she was the one that had to find the job that she stayed at and brought in the majority of the pay to keep our lights on, and that was somebody was there and you know, picking them up, taking them wherever they needed to go, being the the one that knew of the appointments and the meetings, while my wife did you know the job thing, and there's no shame in that. There's no shame in being a stay at home dad at all, not at all.

Speaker 2: 12:29

And during that time, when I was in the Air Force, I got my bachelor's and then after that I got a master's degree, which was nice, but it didn't open any doors for me. And so, after working at a detention center and breaking my ankle and then having to leave because I was a rookie and you're not allowed to be absent your year despite even blowing out your ankle, I thought law school sounded like a really fun thing, and it really was not at all. So I did the law school thing. I worked in a couple counties but my heart wasn't into it because, you know, a lot of it is looking at people and seeing them in their darkest times and either arresting them, incarcerating them or judging them, and I could not connect with the energy of it, the want to do that, the desire to be that person.

Speaker 2: 13:21

I think people deserve a chance or two. I mean, there's obviously certain things that occur that some people will do that you look at and you can't give them that. But drugs, right, we're one of the few countries that views it as an addiction, as opposed to a mental illness, that there's something that we could do to help that. You know, I look at people, places like in South America, that have taken addicts instead of incarcerating them for 10, 20 years, 80s and 90s, where if a young Dale had a dime-sized thing of marijuana on them.

Speaker 2: 14:02

They went to prison longer than a murderer or a rapist. Right 20 years for a joint or not even a joint, just the baggie. When you look at that and you see us waging a war on drugs as opposed to trying to help, trying to find a reasoning or why are people doing this? And I know now a lot of states have pulled back, at least with marijuana. They've pulled back, that being something that people get arrested for, but we still view it as something to incarcerate or to judge someone, instead of saying, well, why are they addicted to these things? What can we do to fix it?

Speaker 1: 14:44

That's a question I have for you too, Greg. When we were going through this and you were feeling very alone. What were you doing to stuff that and mask that?

Speaker 2: 14:54

So it's called a mask of sanity, and I got really good at putting on a fake face and the part of me that was screaming and crying and yelling was subdued not with anything other than me just not wanting to share it, me not wanting to talk about it, locking that part of me up and refusing to even acknowledge it. And it wasn't until 20, right after right when COVID started, I lost my position at the one of the counties that I was working at and I had a break, and it was a break that I was sure enough, thinking about swallowing a bullet, and I just remember feeling as if there was, there was nothing else, and that I was just absolutely tired of it, of the constant fighting, of the constant trying. And I found a job working at Hope, with the VA, with the veterans there, and I would sit with them and talk to them and to be their case manager. I forgive the pun, but it gave me hope, gave me something to try and be better at, and so that was about the same time I had started reaching out to the VA and started doing all the stuff I needed to do with the VA to get in their programs and stuff. And psychopharmacology is amazing. It helped. It helped a lot. My wife and my kids can attest to that. Within a month I wasn't such a trigger pull type dad where I was just ready to, you know, get mad at everything or anyone, and instead it was me being more calm and listening and developing a way to talk to people in a calm voice, as opposed to, you know, being mad and wanting to scream and tear the roof off.

Speaker 2: 16:33

And then I started going to therapy and therapy absolutely sucked and tear the roof off. And then I started going to therapy and therapy absolutely sucked. Like I said, it did not make me feel better, because here I am telling people what I've gone through and it took me two therapists to finally sit down with somebody that I actually connected with, who didn't spend the majority of the time in therapy talking about themselves to me, which I think, for those of you that are listening, that when you want to get into therapy, it is okay to go to different therapists. It is absolutely okay to go to different therapists because you might, the first therapist they send you to, might spend the entire time talking about how they are from some town in Oklahoma that you're trying to impress you about, because they're trying to relate to you and there's a difference between relating to the patient hey, I know what drug addiction is like, I know what depression is like and then, whenever you try and talk to them about something, they just veer the conversation into themselves. And so it took me two therapists.

Speaker 2: 17:29

I got lucky with the second one. She sat down with me. We started doing a very aggressive form of treatment. It absolutely was horrible. There were the hours after the therapy session I was a wreck, but then we would keep doing it and we keep doing it and suddenly I wasn't that wreck anymore. I was dealing with it instead of just talking about it. I was dealing with it, yeah, and learning to deal with it.

Speaker 1: 17:55

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:55

So I highly encourage therapy, I highly encourage conversations. I don't encourage people to use drugs as a coping mechanism or alcohol as a coping mechanism, because it's not going to get you where you want to go. It's going to make that abyss even darker to look into.

Speaker 1: 18:14

Absolutely. It just stuffs it and masks it and it's still there. You have to deal with that. You have to get the trauma out. You have to deal with it. Stuffing it and masking it is a quick fix and a quick way down a real long spiral.

Speaker 2: 18:27

Absolutely, absolutely. So I stopped doing any type of law or law enforcement. I joined the health department because I was good at what they needed me to do for them at the time and then, due to budget cuts from the federal government and state government, we myself and about and 10 other individuals were RIFT, which is the reduction in force, and we were all told one wonderful afternoon being all pulled into an office and being told hey, you're in here because your position is no longer going to be utilized, and so that was fun. Everybody went looking for a job and it's wild Joe.

Speaker 2: 19:09

I don't remember what I clicked on or what I typed, but the Center for Social Innovation popped up. I read it, liked what I read, applied, turned in all my stuff and I didn't give it two more thoughts because I've applied academic positions before and I just never heard anything after that. So I applied for a position that is, with a private company that was doing what I did for the state, got all the way to the second interview, salary was discussed and all that. At that time I'd already interviewed twice for CL and, after talking to the former boss of the program, rhonda Reese, just kind of spitballing with her of the things that were going on and then having the second interview and really feeling this is where I want to go. This is what I want to do.

Speaker 2: 19:53

I just made that clear in my interviews, that, no, this is what I want, because I am a believer that people should get a second chance, a third chance, a 600th chance If they're willing, every time they fall, to get back up. I'm not going to close the door for them. We still have attendance policies and we still have how you act during the course policies that can get you removed from the program. But just because you get removed from the program for this semester or this year doesn't mean you can't come back in 2026 and reapply. I want you to reapply because you just had too many things going on this time. Yeah, try again. Yeah, don't give. Try again, yeah, don't give up.

Speaker 2: 20:31

Don't give up, try again yeah, don't give up, don't give up, yeah 100%. That's what I love about the people that are in the program right now. They are people that have tried and have failed and have failed and have tried in every which way, and now they are in positions where they're, you know, sixth week of college. They're college students, which I tell them all the time, like you are college students and you are right, you are in a program.

Speaker 1: 20:58

That gave me chills.

Speaker 2: 20:59

I'm glad, yeah, it's really it is because you know a lot of these guys when you talk to them. They never thought this would be it right. They never thought they'd either be in college getting some degree, degree going in some direction or in a program that wants to help them succeed while they're going for a degree and they're going into a program.

Speaker 1: 21:19

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:20

And each one of them comes with such a diverse and amazing background and story that I used to I didn't hate getting up to go to work for the health department. That it I used to. I didn't hate getting up to go to work for the health department. I would just get up and I'd go into you know robo mode, brush the teeth, take the shower, eat the breakfast, kiss the wife go. I get up in the morning and I want to go to work because I want to see them come in and I want to talk to them. Okay, what's going on? What's this week? Look like. How's your math test? Okay, did you get yourself the tutor? All right? Well, you know, after you take your math class, you should go right over and go meet with your tutor because it's still fresh in your mind. Hey, let's look in your expungement, okay. Well, what do you need? Who do we need to talk to? And that's what I want to do and that's what we're doing, as opposed to, like I said, just up, get dressed, go to work, sit at work, come home and then the next day you rinse and repeat.

Speaker 2: 22:15

Every day it's something different. I'm meeting somebody that yourself here included is doing work to help people is making it their passion and their focus in life. To get stories out there about people that have gone through things and how they have overcome or they're overcoming, because you and me both know it's never a one and done. You don't go to AA or NA and you're like, okay, I'm no longer an addict, I'm fine. No, you always will be. It's always there.

Speaker 2: 22:42

But knowing that there's people that are doing everything they can to stand in your corner to pick you up, to pat you on the back when you've had really great days, to grab your shoulder when you're having really rough days and to keep pushing you in a direction for a lot of people, for a lot of people, there's times where they don't even feel that, where they feel alone, and to have this program or any type of program that really reaches out and wants to know you, what's your story, how can I help?

Speaker 2: 23:13

What can I do? I feel better about my life because of them, because I want them to succeed. I want them to graduate from this program in May and go on to be a radiologist or a nurse or an addiction counselor A year later, come back and be like, hey, man, how's it going and sit down and talk to me about where they are and what they're doing. And I'm a PRSS at Hope Community Services, or? Or I just got my radiology certificate and yeah, that's, that's what I want from them, as opposed to saying your honor, they should have six months in jail because we got, they got caught with meth, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: 23:53

What does that do for them? What does it do for them to go to jail? What does that accomplish for them? It accomplishes giving them a place to stay, feeding them, bathing them and, and, and then meeting other people. That shows them how to do it better when they get out.

Speaker 2: 24:09

Here's why you got caught Let me show you why you got caught?

Speaker 1: 24:11

Show you a better way to do that, and that's and I can speak on that for truth. You know, that's that's exactly what it taught me. But I didn't go that route Right and I think when I talked, it was a program similar to what you're doing at CFSI. That literally saved me and that's why I was excited for you to come on and talk about this program, because we have it right here in Oklahoma City. It was the empowerment program for me that's what it was called through the prison system, and it was a beautiful program. It really was. It reminded you that you are a person, not just a number.

Speaker 2: 24:49

Right.

Speaker 1: 24:50

Because your whole jail life, prison life, you're D6 to 241. You know what I mean. You don't forget it. Like you know it, that's who you are. You're just a number, right, and it's really demeaning, really demeaning. And it's like that in work life too, right, when you're in a big corporate and you feel like you're just a number, you're a riff, you're a riff waiting to happen, right, and that's so. It's demeaning, it's disheartening and it makes you feel just not worthy, just like not, you're not even worth, not even my last name on my shirt, right?

Speaker 2: 25:23

Yeah, it's a bunch of numbers.

Speaker 1: 25:26

And it's just, it's sad, it's very sad. And so tell me what? So CFSI is through OSU, yes. How did it start? When did it start? What is the program? What was the intention? And is it the same intention now, or has it grown above and beyond? Because when I talk to you, I can feel the passion from you. I can feel it and that's how I feel I was as a group facilitator. They could feel it.

Speaker 1: 25:53

Yeah that you care, that you love them, that you sincerely, genuinely care about what happens to them and it makes all the difference. I really believe that and I could feel that from you, Thank you yeah absolutely. And so tell me, how did it originate, right?

Speaker 2: 26:09

So I don't I. It started about six years ago. So this is cohorts and it was essentially looking at students that don't come from the atypical background which, if you look at OSU student body, yes, you have 18, 19, 20 year olds, but you also have people in their late 20s, early 30s, 40s, what have you? That are switching careers, starting a career, wanting to do something. You know, I always wanted to be a nurse, but I'm 40. I don't know if I can do that. Yes, you can, you absolutely can Go be one, go do that.

Speaker 2: 26:43

And for our students in CFSI, they come from backgrounds that are really different than the student body. They are felons, they are addicts, they are addicts, they are homeless or were homeless. They are people that have suffered trauma or have caused trauma. They are people that have been through the court systems. They are people that have been through the Homeless Alliance systems and HOPE and the Jesus House and have gone through all different types of programs. They've gone to drug court, they've gone to re-merge, they've done all these things and now they're at a point where they have decided well, okay, I've gotten through all this. Now what do I do? Well, I know I can't get a job if I don't have something. And so starting off and getting an associate's degree well, that kind of starts walking you and opening up a door for you, getting an internship at some place, and being a person that is there for their internship is putting in hours. Then, all of a sudden, you know they're looked at like oh well, we want to bring Greg on, we want to bring Joe on, because this is just their internship and they only get paid, like you know, 10 bucks an hour at most. But they're here. When someone says, hey, I need help, they're at it. Or they need a volunteer for something, or hey, can somebody speak on this? Or whatever. They do that. And so part of the program is working with them to learn not just the interview skills. Okay, so you sit down, make sure you look nice, you smell nice, you say yes, ma'am, no, ma'am. You answer these questions this way, you talk this way Because that's fine, right, that's fine.

Speaker 2: 28:19

All of us have been in an interview where they're like so tell us about a time where you've had a deal with a employee that was, and you're going to give them the A, g rated answer. You're not going to tell them that you would tell her to shut up, or that you, you know, right, like you're going to be nice to this person. Oh well, I've had a deal with them before. Now, what I do with them, and what was done before, is learning the soft skills, like, okay, so you're going to be late. It happens, right. People get late, my tires go flat, my kids get sick, the traffic, whatever. I'm going to be late, I'm not going to be there at 830, which is our check-in time. So they text me or they call me and say, hey, I'm going to be late, I woke up late, which is fine too. Just tell me I woke up late. Like, yeah, all right, it happens, you slept through your alarm, but you're up and you're on your way. So what you just told your boss is you can start the meeting without me. You don't have to wait for me. When I get there, I'll come and find you and we can discuss what I missed.

Speaker 2: 29:16

Don't come in the front door when the presenter is talking and you come in with your bag swinging and your coffee in your hand and you're making everybody stop and stare at you. If there's a back door, go in the back door, sit down quietly. You're going to get a couple of heads turned, but not unless you go in there yelling and honking and screaming, sit down quietly and wait to get reseated or wait for whatever. Don't smell when you come to work. I know that's a wild statement to say, but when you come in and you smell like forgive me for saying this body odor is a little strong. You smell like you've been smoking cigarettes since you woke up this morning or you've been smoking something else since you woke up this morning.

Speaker 2: 29:55

When you come into a position or profession that doesn't get looked at well, and if you're wanting to move forward in a position here, they want to see the professionalism. I agree with you. When you join a big agency or a health department and you're number five, seven, three, two, one, sure, but your boss is going to pay attention to you and they're going to see you always coming in late, always having a story, always having a reason, or they're going to see the opposite to that. And if they see the opposite to that, when you're coming in on time or a few minutes early, you're doing what needs to be done and then maybe a little bit more, not 110%, I don't believe in that but you're doing your job and being available for help, then there's more of a chance that you're going to move forward. You're going to progress as opposed to.

Speaker 2: 30:41

I just do barely anything and I smell like pot and I come back a half hour late on my lunches. I know I get it. Some jobs absolutely are horrible and suck. But if you're wanting to go into behavioral health, if you're wanting to be a nurse, if you're wanting to be a radiologist, these aren't the typical Walmart jobs, which there's nothing wrong with Walmart. Please thank you for the people that work at Walmart, but these are different level jobs that they're expecting a different level of commitment and attitude when you walk in the door, and that's what we're trying to, one of the things I'm trying to teach them accountability.

Speaker 1: 31:15

The other the other.

Speaker 2: 31:16

The other huge thing is is you are not who you were. Just because you have a felony record does not mean you can't have a job somewhere. We have a president with a felony record. You absolutely deserve to have a job as well. You had a drug issue, you had a drug addiction, deserve to have a job as well. You had a drug issue, you had a drug addiction Doesn't mean you can't be a nurse somewhere. Doesn't mean you shouldn't be a behavioral health therapist.

Speaker 2: 31:38

Just because you were incarcerated at 18, you got out at 20. Something should not stop you from doing something more. Because that's what we want, right? We send people to prison. We say this is reformatory for you, right, because that's what prison was supposed to be a reformatory where you went in because you did something wrong and you got caught. You spent your time in there developing better skills, getting a GED, learning a trade, learning whatever you left, and you should be able to walk into a position and say here's my CDL license, here's my welding license, here's my GED. When can I start? And unfortunately, our society goes wait a minute. Back when you were 18, you got caught for a dime bag. Sorry, we can't hire felons.

Speaker 1: 32:29

It's so unfortunate, greg, because we talk about reform, prison reform, reform, reform, and that's what we're aiming for, and that's what we want, and da, da, da, da, da da.

Speaker 2: 32:39

Right.

Speaker 1: 32:39

And then when you get out and you're feeling good right, you're feeling good, you're like I got out, I made it, I got this. While I was in there I might've a lot of things could happen, right, yes, you get out and then you try to get a job and you have to explain your story and you have to. You know, and everybody's judging you and looking at you and it's like oh, I'm sorry, you know, there was a better candidate, there was a better fit, nothing that you did. And you're like bullshit.

Speaker 1: 33:05

Excuse my language, but no you're fine, it's, it's factual, I've been myself.

Speaker 2: 33:09

It's factual, I've been through it myself.

Speaker 1: 33:10

It's factual, and so they say you did your time. You know Right, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. So you do your time. But then you get out and you're still penalized for your crime right Forever. And it's very, very difficult. It's very difficult. Second chance employers all of you, you know who you are. Thank you so much for that.

Speaker 1: 33:31

Even sometimes with second chance employers, it's difficult to get on. They're like, well, not that felony, yeah, not that one. I mean felonies, yes, but not that one. You're like how do you expect people to better themselves and better their lives if they come out and can't get a job? They have to have money, they have to eat, they have to feed, clothe roof over their head and what do you expect them to turn back to doing if they can't get a job? And then we blame them. Well, yeah, they just went back to their old ways. Well, yeah, they did, but they couldn't no-transcript.

Speaker 2: 34:38

So they say welding, they say a chef, whatever you go through the whole course, which is very, very exclusive. They don't just open it up to everybody and let everybody that's in that prison come in. You have to earn that and then you have to earn it while you're in. So you do everything they need you to do. You don't get off, or if you do, it's because the instructor is off. You still have to keep everything high and tight.

Speaker 2: 35:02

You spend your time in prison. You finish out your sentence, you leave. They give you a little bit of money and a bus ticket to someplace. So then you go and you say to someone hey, I was incarcerated for five, six years, but during that I got this, this, this and this. What can I do? And they say, well, at&t or T-Mobile has a call center down the road, they'll hire you. I've worked at a call center. It's not fun, it takes a certain type of person to do that.

Speaker 2: 35:33

But if you've spent the last five, six, ten years in prison with the hope that when you left you were going to get a career in something that you've spent time while in prison to learn, and then only to be told well, they're not going to hire you because you're a felon or sorry, sorry, went with the better qualified candidate. Well, does that mean they had more time? No, it doesn't. It means they didn't have a felony at the end of their name. So that's the other part of prison reform. Criminal justice, that absolutely needs to have some type of renaissance, because you cannot expect people to go into jail. Taxpayers pay for the whole thing, right, because that's the big thing. Oh well, we pay for all of that, right? Well, we do so. Then they come out and we say, hey, we want them to be a member of society that pays their bills and pays for all the money and food and everything we spent on them while they're in prison.

Speaker 1: 36:25

Don't forget all the fines they incurred, and all the fines. Hey, all of that money when they get out and that's mandatory right? So you owe us this much a month Mandatory right now.

Speaker 2: 36:36

Mandatory.

Speaker 1: 36:37

Back to prison. Back to prison but that job thing, you know that's going to be rough.

Speaker 2: 36:43

Right, good luck though.

Speaker 1: 36:45

Good setup.

Speaker 2: 36:47

Or they give you a piece of paper that has like 20 things on it and it's an. Essentially it is call center, call center doc worker. Again, again, these are jobs that I know we need as a society. But if you just come out of prison and that is not the direction you want to go, or you can't get that doc job because they've just hired their last person for their quota of felons, what do you then look at and tell these people to do? And they go. Well, they went back to their old life because that's all they know. That's not all they know, that's all they were forced back into doing.

Speaker 1: 37:18

They went back to dealing. It's all the bills and then some of those jobs that we're talking about. Our inflation and our economy is through the freaking roof. Every single person knows it, except the people that are higher and above, and all of that don't have to live in the same economy that we're living in, right?

Speaker 2: 37:37

No, they don't.

Speaker 1: 37:38

And so you tell someone well, you're going to make minimum wage, you just got out of prison. I mean minimum wage, I don't know what it is now. It was $7.75. What in the actual are you going to do with that? You can't even buy groceries.

Speaker 2: 37:51

Nope, so that's a good point. So now you say to them, the people that work at McDonald's 40 hours a week because they don't have the and this is again. You can't look at them and hate on them when you're in their drive-thru buying their Big Mac and you say, yeah, I love the Big Mac, it's delicious. I don't have to cook food. Tonight I can get a Happy Meal for my kid. I don't have to make dinner for them, it's great. So you're okay with the product. You're not okay with the people that are doing it. You're fine taking the burger, you're just not okay helping the person that's cooking the burger out. If I'm following you correctly.

Speaker 1: 38:26

Absolutely, absolutely Just the judgment, the stigma, the judgment I know just on my podcast alone, which is why I started doing this. Stories of Transformation, right, live Stories of Transformation from rock bottom to rock solid, that's the whole thing. So I know many people that have changed their lives around, myself included.

Speaker 2: 38:48

Awesome.

Speaker 1: 38:48

It is not easy. It is a hell of a hard road that does not need to be as hard as it is Now. I'm not making excuses because you have to do the work.

Speaker 2: 39:00

Right on.

Speaker 1: 39:01

But they. There's a lot of barriers in front of people and a lot of hoops to jump through and to jump over. I'm just going to say some get luckier than others.

Speaker 1: 39:11

Yes, they do Some get to the right place at the right time. Not everybody comes out ready to reform. Let's be real. Not everybody's ready to make a change, not everybody's ready to reform, but the ones that are. You see it on the job sites and everything right now hey, so-and-so's looking for a job, I can't find one. I have this felony blah blah blah. Is there anybody that hires? I just want to work. I'm trying this. I've put in 997 applications. I just want to feed my family and take care of business. I want to do it the right way. Can't find a flipping job. So we say we want reform. Sorry, I'm on the soapbox about this.

Speaker 2: 39:50

Stand away, stand away.

Speaker 1: 39:52

Really on my heart. We say we want it, but yet we don't help it happen. Right, so do we want it, Do we or do we like people in prison? I don't know. It keeps jobs too right.

Speaker 2: 40:04

It does because the prison industrial machine is private and companies make a lot of money. When you look at law of crimes that have a fine, only right. So me and this other gentleman both get speeding tickets. I get a $200 ticket, he gets a $200 ticket. My wife's going to want to kick my butt, but it's going to be nothing for us to pay. I'll go in. You're right, I did. Here's the check. Give it to the clerk, all good. Here's your paper saying you've all paid off Serial balance together, because the job they have only pays them a certain amount of hours and pays them very little.

Speaker 2: 40:41

That $200 ticket is going to the same people that will throw their hands up in and then every month you tell them well, we're going to take away $10 or we're going to reduce your food stamps, and they're just barely getting by. And someone says to them well, hey, remember how we used to sell meth. You were in prison with a bunch of guys that taught you, like you said, how they taught you the right way to do it. You just went in a different direction For some people. Well, what do I do? I can't pay this stupid ticket. I can't keep my lights on. They keep cutting my benefits. Guess I'll sell dope because I'll make some money off of that right, or they sell something else that is equally detrimental to them. But it's to survive in a society that says, oh, we're pro-life, but man, that life we are very judgmental about, extremely Extremely.

Speaker 1: 42:12

Extremely so I think law all of it needs to change. Thanks for jumping on that box with me, greg.

Speaker 2: 42:18

Hey, we can stand on it together, there's plenty of room.

Speaker 1: 42:23

And I realize we also understand that there's people that take advantage of the system. So we're, not saying it's all bad. It's not all bad. People need it. It was designed to help. We're not saying it's all bad. We're just saying that there's some things that could change, that could be helpful to help people further a better life and a better lifestyle for themselves when they are trying to live a good life. That's what we're trying to say. So sorry. I got off a little off track.

Speaker 2: 42:53

No, you're fine because you're not wrong. Because when you stand in front of a judge and you say to the judge, I'm doing everything you asked me to do, I'm going to my meetings, I'm talking to my sponsor, I'm barely paying the fines fees, victim payments, all of that I'm working at a place, I'm doing my volunteer hours, I'm going to anger management. I see my kid at DHS once a week, if that she lets me. I need some type of break and we look at them and go. Shouldn't be a criminal.

Speaker 1: 43:22

Exactly A hundred percent. What A hundred percent? And it's. It's if you've never been through the system, because once you've done. You're stuck in the system. Okay, yes, so if you've never been through it. It's real difficult to speak on it because you don't know what that spinning wheel looks like. And it's difficult, it's very difficult.

Speaker 2: 43:44

And wheel looks like and it's difficult, it's very difficult and it is all about money. It is all about money. If it's a fine, it's deliberately targeted at poor people. If it's time, right, if it's a fine, it's, it's targeted at the poor. If it's time, if it's a year, two years, whatever it's an equal opportunity thing.

Speaker 1: 43:58

Right, right, right, but there's two sides to that. And by saying there's two sides to it, look at us speaking right now. You're on the law side. You come from a law background, with a law degree correct, I do. I come from a felony background with a felony degree, so look at the two of us coming together and talking about the same exact issue.

Speaker 2: 44:19

Yes. So look at that, people, we all can get along, first of all. And the second thing is we're both seeing it from the same way. People that don't see it from would steal a loaf of bread or steal a cell phone so they could sell the cell phone, so they could have money. If you don't understand why people join gangs or why they do drugs or why people end up as prostitutes, and your biggest thing is to turn around and try and just prosecute everybody, I challenge you to take a moment and to talk to the around and try and just prosecute everybody. I challenge you to take a moment and to talk to the people that you've either prosecuted or that are in custody or what have you, and find out the why.

Speaker 2: 45:13

Why did you that one day have to steal that loaf of bread? Why did you that one day try and sell some dope to a police officer that was undercover? What made you be a prostitute? Yeah, don't do that. Highly recommend not doing that. Why did you become a prostitute? What led you down that road? Why did you? What happened that you got addicted to heroin or meth? What? What part of your life did you just go and go in that direction?

Speaker 1: 45:37

Yeah, so you actually have a compassionate heart, right?

Speaker 2: 45:42

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 45:43

Maybe everybody just doesn't, I don't know, maybe they. I think we just grow up differently. You, I think, in the beginning you said that you grew up poor.

Speaker 2: 45:52

Absolutely Welfare kid, all that stuff.

Speaker 1: 45:55

Yep, so you see it from a different side and I think that's it's the lens that we're viewing it from right.

Speaker 2: 46:01

Yes.

Speaker 1: 46:02

Yes, it's that whole thing. Don't judge. If you haven't walked a mile in someone's shoes, you don't know. You don't know what you don't know. There's all the cliches, but they're all true, they're all true. They're all true, and so, while I rudely interrupted you about the CFSI program and you told us what it was about and what you're trying to do, I am fortunate to know several people that have graduated from the program and also people that are in the program now, but how do the people that need the program usually hear about it?

Speaker 2: 46:37

So a lot of it is word from the mouth, a lot of it is online. We have a website that's attached to the OSU OKC CFSI program where you apply the application process. To possibly have a little bit of a change up With me now being the director, I think what it was, but don't quote me, I'm not nothing set in stone, but there's an application process and then there's a process to get in. After they get in, then they're in it for a full year from August to May. To hear about it is a lot of people that have either been in the program or have heard about the program. My wife works for a county department and she has cards that she can give out. We have people that have been in the program and will tell other people about it. Oh hey, it's still going on.

Speaker 2: 47:23

For a while there was rumor that it had been canceled and closed off because the prior administration for the program left, and so that was me going uphill trying to tell people no, no, no, we're still here, we're still happening, and I got very fortunate that in the list that I was given to people that were interested in it had already gone through a couple of the steps but hadn't been finalized. I was able to call them up and I contacted one person Her name is Kristen and Kristen was literally turned around, called me back and said there are three other women at this house that have put their applications in One of them you know, tricia, and would they want to be in it. And I said, great, have them call me. And I talked to them and they were there for orientation, along with Andrew, who you've talked to.

Speaker 2: 48:10

So a lot of it was grunt work that had already kind of been done Word of mouth, broadcasting, either on social medias because we have a media team social media or on the website and, like myself, just coming by it and all of a sudden discovering it, which I think for a lot of people that's a difficult road to even get on, to even start looking for something like that. So it's a whole process that they have to get through to find programs like mine, to find programs where they can get clothes for interviews, where they don't have to do like some six months probation with them, any of that. So there are not a lot of doors that are open for people that have felony backgrounds that won't guide them towards what they need to do and instead, like we talked about, is that they would rather have those people trip up, mess up, f up and get sent back to prison. And what is that? Okay, well, I'm back where I belong, I guess.

Speaker 1: 49:07

Well, yeah, kind of, it's just very defeating right, right.

Speaker 2: 49:12

But hey, it's three meals, I get a shower, I can go work out, I can get a GED, I can get a, whatever I mean, the violence is still there. The violence never goes away. But I don't know. The violence is still there, the violence never goes away. But I don't know if I'm homeless and you're going to feed me, and when I get out, you're not even going to try and help me get a better life when I've done what you've required me to do. It's just such a slippery slope and it takes it in such a direction that is not made to assist people. It's made to keep people at a level and so that you know you're at that level.

Speaker 1: 49:49

It's just beat down, it's a constant beat down. Yeah, it's a constant beat down and it's hard. And again, I understand criminal activity. Don't do it Right. We get the premise we understand Crimes are bad.

Speaker 2: 50:01

I think we can both agree on that one.

Speaker 1: 50:05

Don't do it. We get it, don't do it. But we're just trying to make a point that once you're in it, it's a hamster wheel to get out of it.

Speaker 2: 50:15

And, like you said, for those that get out and they find some type of road to get on and you know that's awesome. You know that's awesome. But just because it worked for you doesn't mean it's going to work for the 99.99% others that go through the system, go out, get caught, because whatever gets sent back in the system and have to do it all over again. Now, again, you know bad crimes are bad. I think we can all agree on that one. Yes, yes, but it's. It's like the argument. You know, do you arrest the guy that stole the loaf of bread to feed his family? The answer is yes, he committed a crime. It's theft, Right, but it's, it's a crime. He. He went in the store, stole the bag of bread, went home.

Speaker 1: 51:00

I'd be fired my first day.

Speaker 2: 51:01

First, day like go home. You don't know how to do this job correctly. Oh, you, let him get away with it. Well, what else are you going to? Let him get away with it. Oh my God, it's not this isn't people like Bernie Madoff that stole hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars from people's 401ks. And can anyone tell me what happened to him? Right, right.

Speaker 1: 51:28

Not 401ks, and can anyone tell me what happened to him? Because he got us he right right, not really not his money, completely, not completely. I think we know bits and pieces of what they wanted us to know, but not completely, yeah so.

Speaker 2: 51:35

But then you have guys and girls that do stuff and that ends up in prison for a while and, like the people that are in my not my program, their program, it's their program. I'm just honored and lucky enough to be there to help them with it. This is their program.

Speaker 1: 51:50

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 51:51

And their program helps them try and get out of that. We have one student that has to fill out a bunch of paperwork and send it off and pay to send it off so that she can be. I want to say she can be a radiologist, but she's having to pay for them to look at her background and decide whether or not she has the right to be a radiologist. It happens in law too. I mean, if you have a criminal background but somehow you got in law school, you did everything you needed to do, you still have to fill out paperwork and the bar can look at you and say, well, you had a felony back in. Whatever, we're not going to let you be an attorney. And so they have to fight to have that.

Speaker 1: 52:29

I have my Series 7 license, my Series 6 license, my health and life insurance license. I worked in brokerage for several years before the insurance industry came back and said we're going to need you to publish exactly what you did for your crime and put that on the open publication so that when people are looking for brokers they can go on and read your whole story. Oh that's probably not going to happen, but I'd already had all the licenses.

Speaker 1: 53:00

I had all that, had you told me that first. May not have done that While I get it. Crimes are bad.

Speaker 2: 53:07

Crimes are bad.

Speaker 1: 53:08

I passed the effing Series 7 brokerage license test. That made me cry, taking it Literally. I went in the bathroom, didn't know if I was going to go back for the second half. I had to go in and do a freaking Sylvester Stallone Rocky pep talk with myself. Go back in and do the second half. Um, it was like it was just very defeating right, very defeating it was. It was the worst industry I've ever worked in in my entire life. I'll be honest with the people, um, that were way worse than the people I grew up with on the street. Um, so I have seen it from both sides. I've ran companies, I've been the janitor, I've cleaned schools. I've seen it from all the sides and even for me, at this late stage in the recovery game, the felony, all of it after prison. After all the things, there's still things I can't do, right, still many things that I'm not allowed to do because I made a mistake in my teens. That's disgusting. That's disgusting.

Speaker 2: 54:09

I don't disagree.

Speaker 1: 54:10

And so I don't know. Greg, I'm seeing a collaboration here. I'm seeing a prison reform bill collaboration on the steps, with the sleeping bag reform happening here.

Speaker 2: 54:21

You know I'm not a current fan of the current administration, and currently anyway. But when you look at people and you say, well, you're a felon, you can't have a gun, the president does. Well, you're a felon, you can't vote the president has. Well, you can't get this job that has a X amount clearance level or security level or whatever. President is the president.

Speaker 1: 54:48

He's the commander.

Speaker 2: 54:49

He's the commander in flip and chief and he's a felon, and this isn't anything that's going to get me in trouble. Look it up. He's got 30 plus counts of a felony that go against him, plus other stuff that I'm not going to say. So I don't get anybody to jump on me, but he is, and if it wasn't for the presidency, we'd have a different direction. So my argument to everyone is why is it then okay that he gets to leave the life that he lives, when someone like yourself has to jump through hoops, create their own empire in order to survive time, and you'll be fine when you get out and we'll work with you and the state whatever, and you can't. You can't join the military with a felony. So if you were that 18-year-old that did something super stupid and you got out at 19 or 20 and you're like I don't want to do this anymore, I want to serve my country, you may not be allowed to because of your record.

Speaker 2: 55:54

The people that I am so greatly honored to work with are people that come in every day and put in the time and the work. They want to be here, they want to be a part of this, they want to do well, they want to become active members of society. They are active members of society. They pay their bills, they do what they need to do for the program houses that they're in. They follow the program that I have given them. They work with their teachers, work with whoever they have to at school to keep grades going, to keep their progressiveness going forward, and when they apply for a job they shouldn't have to fill out 20 extra forms to my one form because of what they've done.

Speaker 1: 56:37

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 56:37

And all you're saying to them is like they could have said to you early on with your brokerage is yeah, you can nail every class, yeah, you can pass every test, but you're going to have to fill out this one form. And this one form is going to determine whether or not some place will take you and not. And it has nothing to do with the fact that when you were 18, 19 years old, you did this drug or you sold this or whatever. Because that's old, those two aren't even connected. So now I can't be one, because I spent a couple of years in prison for a drug charge.

Speaker 1: 57:19

What it's hard, that whole you can't own a gun thing I get that. I get we have some issues and all of those things I understand. But I'm a citizen that has a right to protect myself and my family. I'm a single mom. I have that right to protect myself and my family. What do you do with that? So you either do it illegally.

Speaker 2: 57:45

Right, which gets you in trouble right there.

Speaker 1: 57:47

Gets you in trouble, right? If I got stopped and I had a gun on me even today, I have to go immediately, immediately to jail. Right, immediately, pass go.

Speaker 2: 57:58

Or if it wasn't your gun and it was somebody else that had a gun on them, you're in a vehicle or in a house with a firearm. Yes, you can get yourself in trouble from that.

Speaker 1: 58:07

Yes, you cannot have be with somebody that has a CCW, conceal and carry license. You cannot. So many things, y'all so many things. I will get off of that because there's so many things, but it's very I don't know any other word sometimes but defeating. We can't let that defeat us. We can't let our past define us.

Speaker 1: 58:26

We have to fight against that and you have to fight hard, so you have to want it. I am the first one to say I fought really freaking hard and you can too. You can fight it. You can do better and there is programs such as Greg's program, cfsi, to help you figure those things out and how to do better and, for lack of better words, live in society the way they want you to live in society, and that's not a bad thing Not saying it's a bad thing.

Speaker 1: 58:54

If we didn't have those laws, we'd be in worse shape. Some of them definitely need some reform, but having programs like yours definitely gives someone that may not have had a leg up yes and I think that's super important and very compassionate Shows people that you do get something for doing better. You can win. You can win. You don't always have to be defeated. You're going to walk away from this with a degree right. You're going to walk away from this with your head held high and know that you accomplished something and you're going to learn some very, very, very valuable skills, and I've seen that. I've seen some of the people that have been through the program and that help pay the bills they do the grants.

Speaker 2: 59:56

But without the students that we have come in and have them have the want and desire to be more than whatever they were, this program wouldn't go anywhere. We are so fortunate to have individuals that want to come in and want to change their direction and just be more than they ever thought they could have been. Where a couple of years ago, they thought I'm just going to be an Adam, I'm going to continually keep stumbling, and then one thing led to another. They got sober, they stayed sober, somebody brought them to a house where they could stay sober and work at that house, and then a program popped up, or somebody told them about a program, and they applied, they got into the program, they started going to school and the next thing they know they're graduating from school, they're leaving, they're celebrating the program that they just left and they're thinking, holy cow, I did this and you know me being the director of it is great, but that's just.

Speaker 2: 1:00:51

I'm just the guy that's behind the scenes calling people like yourself hey, come on in and talk to them, let's get this going. They're the ones that are putting in the work, they're the ones that have to go to the jobs and have to talk to the people and say, yeah, I did this, but that shouldn't stop me from being more than what I was. So they are the ones that make this program amazing and sustainable because of everything that somebody did before them. They are doing now and will continue to to help themselves grow, but they're making it so that others that come aboard on this program next year yeah can.

Speaker 2: 1:01:27

Can continue to have this well I?

Speaker 1: 1:01:29

I thank you for calling me and letting me come in and coming in. You know we have that date set up. I can come in and talk with them and kind of class, so to speak.

Speaker 1: 1:01:42

However, we want to look at that and just be a little bit of a part of that. I do work for South Coast Behavioral Health Treatment Center and my job is to get people in treatment. And my job is to get people in treatment. Okay, Before I was doing that, as a community engagement specialist, I was the group facilitator for South Coast and, just as you, I felt that that teaching groups it was their group, right, it was their group. They were there to learn. That was their job at the moment. Right, their job is to get better, to learn how to heal, to be better, and part of doing that is being involved in programs like that, to learn some skills and learn how to do better and be accountable and all those things.

Speaker 1: 1:02:22

So, not only is there programs like that out there. The first step is you. You have to take that step to find those programs. Whether it's treatment, whether it's, you know, going to sober living, there's many, many different treatment programs and options out there that you can do, as well as searching for more, searching for more things that you can do. So that's why I was asking you how do they hear about the program? Because if you're out there and you're searching for what can I become a part of? How can I do better? We've got to give access a good way for people to find those things too right.

Speaker 2: 1:02:56

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 1:02:57

And so I remember I took that stack of cards from you.

Speaker 1: 1:03:01

The reason I took that stack is because I am out there in the community. There's some Impact 405. I was at an Impact 405 meeting yesterday and that's what they do. They bring community resources together, share them all at the meeting, so we all know what's available out there. And that's what they do. They bring community resources together, share them all at the meeting, so we all know what's available out there. And I think it's amazing. It's an amazing thing to be able to bring everyone together and share what it is that you do. So we can all be the little troops that go out there and say this might be helpful to you, check on this program, check on that program. And I think it's just amazing. We have these things, we just need to know about them.

Speaker 2: 1:03:36

Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1: 1:03:37

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:03:38

And like, like we said, you know to tell them hey, you need to do better, you need to do all these things, and then not provide them with any type of resource for that.

Speaker 1: 1:03:47

Right.

Speaker 2: 1:03:47

I mean you're, you're just, it's not even like one step forward, two steps back. You're not even letting them take a step forward. There's nothing happening. And then you know bad things occur when nothing happens. So Impact 405, groups that are out there, please, if you're listening to this right now, I would happily welcome you to a conversation, because I want them to be so hit with so many things, so much information, that they go hey, can we have a Friday off?

Speaker 1: 1:04:15

Hey, I can help with that, I promise.

Speaker 2: 1:04:18

I'm not going to say no. I am not going to say no to that.

Speaker 1: 1:04:21

You'll be saying stop bringing me the people.

Speaker 2: 1:04:23

No, those won't be words. Those won't be words, I promise.

Speaker 1: 1:04:28

Hey, we'll remember that we had Yep, it's going to be saved forever. Joe, it's June. I don't need anybody right now. It's going to be good, greg. It's going to be good, so thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:04:38

I agree.

Speaker 1: 1:04:39

Thank you so much for today, yeah, for sharing your vulnerability, for sharing your story and letting people know that they are not alone, and for sharing the resources of CFSI, because I think it is life-changing. I truly, truly do. What you're doing is really performing small miracles out there.

Speaker 2: 1:04:59

Well, thank you, but they're the ones doing the work. They are the ones doing the work.

Speaker 1: 1:05:03

They are the ones doing the work. Absolutely. You're facilitating and giving them a place and an option to do that work, so I thank you for that. I know that we will see each other soon. I feel like there's going to keep being some conversations as well.

Speaker 2: 1:05:18

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 1:05:19

So thank you so much for today, Greg.

Speaker 2: 1:05:25

You are welcome, Jo. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:05:27

Yes, absolutely.