Recovery, Relapse, And The Power Of Connection, with Guest Anthony Kurtz

What if the opposite of addiction isn’t willpower, but connection? Tony sits with Host, Jo Summers and opens a life shaped by early chaos, a family history of both addiction and recovery, and a relentless hunt for validation that slid from weed and alcohol to K2, meth, and eventually heroin. He names the seductive lie of that first meth high—how it felt like confidence and kindness—and the spiral that followed: expulsions, arrests, couch surfing, and a fentanyl overdose that landed him in ICU, across the hall from his grandmother. Call it God or coincidence, he calls it conviction; either way, he walked out still chasing the next escape.

The turnaround wasn’t a single victory lap. Tony cycled through treatment in Indiana and California, tried to outsmart addiction by swapping substances, and even used in rehab. The shift came in small, human moments: realizing he could stop crying when someone entered a room, deciding to leave a trap house before prison or death found him, and saying yes to a sober-living bed offered by a friend who was being kicked out as he was let in. He learned to cut ties that fed the cycle, to ask for chances to help with his hands and words, and to let service quiet his anger. He launched a moving company with integrity at its core, found a workable faith through simple prayers, and built two and a half years of sobriety—until he stopped working his program and relapsed.

What brought him back wasn’t perfection; it was practice. Prayer stayed. Boundaries got real. He chose a tribe that protects his values. Now he works in behavioral health, offering the compassion he once needed during intake assessments, and he’s honest about the weight of a field where we don’t save everyone. We talk relapse warning signs, the danger of chasing validation, tools for overwhelm (service, solitude, self-care), and why connection is the most underrated recovery strategy. If you’re navigating addiction, relapse, or the lonely middle where change feels possible but fragile, this story offers practical hope and a map you can follow.

If the conversation resonates, follow the show, share this episode with someone who needs it, and leave a review telling us the moment that hit you hardest. Your support helps more people find a tribe that holds.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 1:12

Welcome to Breakfast of Choices, live stories of transformation from rock bottom to rock solid. I am here with my friend Tony Kurtz. Once upon a time we worked together, and I guess in a sense we still work together. We go to some groups together and our work in recovery keeps us connected. I think that's fair to say, right?

SPEAKER_05: 1:31

Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32

I don't know that it's just our work in recovery that keeps us connected. Um Tony always used to come in my groups at work and sometimes he'd be like, What's what's happening today? And he'd hang out and listen and I'd make him share something positive or something.

SPEAKER_02: 1:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:46

He was grateful for. But I always enjoy it very much. And I could tell he did he liked groups too.

SPEAKER_05: 1:52

So Yeah, I love absolutely to always get stuff. I like a lot of good things out of it. And he always was so welcoming every time I walked in.

SPEAKER_00: 2:01

Yeah, I was always happy when somebody walked in or when you came in because I think it's important to show clients that you know we're all in recovery too, and we do recover.

SPEAKER_06: 2:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 2:11

Um, and that we just because we are in recovery and maybe some of us have some long-term recovery, that doesn't mean we don't have some days where we struggle too. Right. So I I think that's always important to be aware of for everyone in recovery. Everybody struggles sometimes, and that's okay. That's why we're here for each other, and that's why we stay connected.

SPEAKER_05: 2:33

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 2:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 2:35

That's why I used to sit down in there too. I felt like a client sometimes. I was like, I need to hear something.

SPEAKER_00: 2:40

Right. And and I think that that's good. I mean, that's um that's being real, right?

SPEAKER_06: 2:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 2:46

And um saying that, hey, some days, some days I need to sit down and hear something. Yeah, absolutely. You still go to meetings, correct?

SPEAKER_05: 2:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 2:55

And you still have a home group.

SPEAKER_05: 2:56

Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_00: 2:58

Um, and you stay pretty active and with with your people and support and all of that. So today you're gonna share your story. We're obviously gonna have a conversation. And when I say story, I don't I don't mean to call it that because it's really our journey, our testimony of life. Sometimes when you say it's a story, it implies that you know we're having story time that we're making things up. And yeah, you know, the things that we go through and the things that we've been through, we are definitely not making up. If anything, we're probably not sharing at all sometimes. Hi, Tony.

SPEAKER_05: 3:30

Yellow.

SPEAKER_00: 3:31

How are you?

SPEAKER_05: 3:32

I'm good. I'm uh I'm I'm doing good today.

SPEAKER_00: 3:35

Yeah. Well, we've already talked earlier today. We've already been on the phone chatting today.

SPEAKER_05: 3:42

Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm all right. I've met I've had worse days, I've had better. I'm just uh and I'm okay with my day being all right today, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 3:51

There you go. We we're having the day that we have, right?

SPEAKER_05: 3:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 3:55

Yep. So you're gonna share with me today your testimony of recovery um and how it started for you.

SPEAKER_06: 4:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 4:05

What was your uh childhood life like? Isn't that where it starts?

SPEAKER_05: 4:09

Yeah. So I didn't have like a super rough upbringing when it came to my childhood. However, my dad was in recovery. He got sober when I was six. I went to to Valley Hope and what is it, Cushing, right?

SPEAKER_01: 4:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 4:33

Cushing, Oklahoma. So, you know, growing up like recovery or addiction is like was in my family, but so was recovery as well. I would go to uh I would go to Thanksgiving every year and where my great grandma, my aunt is, you know, my cousins, and me, my mom and dad would go out there with my uncles, and right before we'd eat, we would pray out, and then at the end of the prayer, everybody would say, keep coming back, it works if you would. That's great. You know, I didn't understand that for a long time. I was like, what the I I I didn't even think twice about I was like, what yeah, like whatever. And um, you know, as I've gotten older, even even though I've been in recovery the last in and out, like six years, it's just recently like struck me within maybe the last year or two of how important it is to my family. And uh but yeah, so back to my childhood though, my dad got sober when I was six. I didn't know what was going on, I just knew that my dad was gone, you know what I mean? And we'd go visit him and go play golf. They have a golf course there, and uh my mom, looking back on it now, especially with all the stuff I've been through since I've gotten sober, I kind of have more empathy for her and understanding of what she was going through at that time. And she she was obviously depressed, she was going through her own things, and as a young child, like I wasn't that helpful. I remember like, like, this shouldn't be funny, but the re okay, so so my my my mom one day, I told her I hated her for the first time. And uh I remember she went inside. I don't remember what was going on, but I just remember what I said, and uh she went inside and she like cried.

SPEAKER_03: 6:32

And uh like the little narcissist I was, I I put my hand over her and I was like, what's wrong? Like, why you know, like I just told you I hated you.

SPEAKER_05: 6:43

Now, you know, yeah, now what's wrong? Why are you sad what's wrong with you? Like, why you and then I'm the one to console her, you know? Yeah, which she was going through other things too, though, you know, and like that probably highly affected and I was probably going through it too, and I didn't even realize it.

SPEAKER_00: 6:59

Yeah, you were angry, you're launching out too.

SPEAKER_05: 7:01

Yeah, and uh and that's why I I kind of laughed about it because I was like, that's like a little narcissistic trait to me.

SPEAKER_00: 7:08

You were a kid and then you realized that that affected her, you know?

SPEAKER_05: 7:12

Yeah, yeah. Um yeah, for sure. Anyways, I he came back home and then they took that uh that year gap between each other. That a lot of people suggest when it comes to recovery, stay single for a year. So they took that year gap and moved out of the house, and uh they're split up. My mom lived with my grandma, my dad lived with his mom, and I was going back and forth all the time, and I I didn't know, I didn't understand what was going on.

SPEAKER_00: 7:46

That was probably hard for you um as a child too, though.

SPEAKER_05: 7:51

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I didn't like I said, I had no idea what was going on. But I do remember being bitter at that age. I do remember being very bitter and angry all the time, and like in elementary school too, and like always getting into it with kids, other kids. I got hit in the face with a metal pole and it almost took my eye out. I could see right through the pole when this kid hit me. I could see like the light at the end of the tunnel.

SPEAKER_00: 8:19

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05: 8:23

And I was always told to like not snitch, you know, like and I was told s snitches get stitches. And uh when I got hit, my little cousin ran to my grandma and I was like, don't tell, like, don't tell. And I'm like, what, seven or eight years old, you know, already like getting put into this position to like I don't know how to explain, uh word it secrets? Yeah, just to not do the right thing, you know?

SPEAKER_00: 8:55

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 8:56

And I'm like bleeding profusively out of my face, and I, you know, like I'm not even worried about if I need stitches, like none of that. I just want to hide it. And um, I ended up getting snitched, stitches, six stitches on my right under my eye, and there's a lot of situations like that where around that time where I was like getting into altercations with people and getting my head split open, or you know, that was just one of the situations that happened, and I remember just like like I'd be cool with people and I wouldn't be, and I just I don't know, I just didn't like people. And so let's fast forward to uh I want to say fifth, sixth grade, I met my very first girlfriend, and uh, you know, we're more like best friends, we're so young, you know. Yeah, and we dated for like eight months, and then um we broke up and I uh sh we broke up the we didn't break up in the best way, and you know, uh it was very toxic on my behalf. And you know, I don't even really remember what fully happened, you know. I was so young and but this girl's a big part of my story. That's why I'm um saying it today. She we ended up talking later down the road and seeing each other, we'd say hi to each other, and she ended up she ended up passing away later on due to suicide. One of the last things I said to her was I love you, and which was good. And uh like three days before she committed suicide. Um I I hit her sister up and I was like, hey, like something in me told me to reach out to her, and it had been a while since I talked to her. Connection Yeah, just to say hi. I I told her, I like I was like, hey, will you reach out to her for me? She's like, she's in DHS, blah blah blah. I was like, okay. And three days later she had passed. And like I beat myself up for a long time for that. Uh and I'll get I'll get in it, and uh eventually I did get have some like like healing from it. I've healed from it, but I'll get to that later in the story. Um, I want to backtrack back to like middle school. So around that same time, like sixth grade, I was like, I had like long hair, I was always in front of my face. I was like this little emo kid that listened to like Slipknot and Blue October. And uh I didn't um I didn't fully fit in. Um and looking back, there's times I got bullied and like I would just brush it off. I would like it it wouldn't really, it was so weird, like it wouldn't affect me that much, or maybe I don't remember that it affected me. But I always went to school with like a really good attitude at that time. And the the crazy thing is I my parents were doing good at that time. They're back in the house, you know. Uh like I always like look at things like like they're back in the house and they actually had a new house, and they they weren't, they'd never argue, nothing like that. And uh the relationship was good. And that around that time, I started getting good within myself as well. But I do remember around that time I was trying to fit in really bad. I was sort of trying to fit in really hard. And I was using what's that word that I use all the time that I forgot, validation. Validation is where it all stemmed from for me. Um, validation from others, I would give up what is right for validation, you know? Yeah. I would sit there and I was smoking weed and drinking before I even smoked weed and drank because one of the kids that I thought were cool asked me if I did this, this, and that. And I was like, Yeah, I smoke weed. I was like, I smoke all the weed. Like, you you got it, you I smoke it, like whatever. Like, yeah, I do it all, you know, and uh I've never seen weed in my life. I don't know what it looks like. So I'm I eventually uh I think I drank Lishrain for the first time, which is wild because I seen it on intervention and like I saw how it affected this lady's life so bad. But all I saw was for some reason that it made you feel good, you know? And so I did it, and uh I do remember for a split moment I had that feeling of just euphoria, like my whole body was euphoric, and I started laughing with my friend, and we were just rolling on the ground laughing, and we didn't know even know what we were laughing about, and I felt like all my worries in the world were gone, and and it didn't last that long, you know, it did not, and um it went away shortly after, and then I eventually smoked weed in Indiana. It didn't really like I don't know, it wasn't like some aha thing where I was like, I need to do this again, but I did do it again eventually, and when I did it, it again it wasn't like it it just it wasn't I don't know why I did it. Like other than like seeking validation outside of that, because I didn't even like how it affected me. Um alcohol was a different story, you know, but I didn't think about it like that. I didn't I wasn't like, ooh, I need I need some alcohol like right now, you know what I mean? Like I hadn't got there yet, right? Yeah, and uh I I eventually like seventh grade, eighth grade year, I uh I cut all my hair off and I I got a mohawk and like when I did that I finally get in. I found my tribe. I had that camaraderie, like what you want to call it, like my fellowship, right? And all the Hispanic kids at school brought me in and they just like loved on me, and uh and everybody thought I looked Hispanic. And that was like my whole thing all throughout middle school and all throughout high school. Everybody was always like, Why do you think you're Hispanic? And I'm like, I'm not, I'm not Hispanic. I just look that way, I guess. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not trying to be anything but that I'm not, but um, I didn't care either. You know what I mean? Because I found my group, yeah, and uh, and that was the eighth grade year, and then girls started coming into play, and I met I met my middle school sweetheart, and then um, you know, I started stealing that same year from Circle K. You can probably block that out.

SPEAKER_00: 15:44

Uh Circle K will come get you now.

SPEAKER_05: 15:49

Yeah. And we'd steal like 24 packs of alcohol after school and put them in my backpack and distract the clerk every single day. And we were chest locking after school. I'd bring boxing gloves to school and we'd box it out after school. I got in my first real fight after school. Like that eighth grade year was a big transition for me. It was like uh a lot of addiction started that year. Um, when it comes to alcohol.

SPEAKER_00: 16:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 16:21

Weed, girls, um, validation from women, like you know, girls at that time. And uh still stealing was an addiction for me. Like I got addicted to that, and um, I got addicted to fighting. So that's like five different things that I can name right now that changed for me and started where I started acquiring an addiction because all those things create like this rush inside of me. And it all just boosted my ego, made me dopamine. Yeah, and so I get my grandpa passes away that year too, and that's actually the same year my ex-girlfriend had passed. I I move over into high school year, and it's the same thing, you know. It's it's me, except I start ditching class now. I'm not going to class as much. I'm worried about getting drunk and high at school. I'm I'm trying different types of things, like I'm drinking cough syrup and K2 was out, and that really messed my generation up because like I have my own opinions about weed. I don't do it. It's not for me. But when K2 came out, everybody thought it was just like marijuana, which it's not, not at all. And for us as young children, it was really messing us up, which I figured that out real quick, and I stayed away from that drug. Um, it was one of the one drugs like, uh-uh. Like, I'm not doing it.

SPEAKER_00: 17:51

But was it specifically about K2 that you were seeing at the time that was keeping you away from it?

SPEAKER_05: 17:57

It was just the feeling uh that I would get when I was on it. Like I would have strong hallucinations, like like demonic hu hallucinations. Um, everything was pixelized. I felt like I was in a video game at times. I thought I was gonna have a heart attack one time. I really thought I was gonna die. And I was just like, this is it. I'm gonna die right here. Vivid, vivid, intense, scary hallucinations. And I was for me, it wasn't like there's like no euphoria. And uh, I was just like, screw this. I'm not I'm not doing this anymore. At some point in time, it was like sometime in high I did it a few times and told myself I was gonna stop in high school, and then I did it like one last time when I was like 18, and I was like never again.

SPEAKER_00: 18:42

The reason I asked that was how PCP was for me, you know, back long time ago days.

SPEAKER_01: 18:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 18:48

It was PCP that was, you know, sprinkled in the weed, and you know, all of a sudden, like all my weed was PC, yeah, we were getting PCP, and it the feeling was like that. Like it just seemed very off and very not euphoric. It was scary. My best friend actually was passing out one day. We used to hitchhike to the beach all the time as very, very young teenagers, like 13-ish. And um, she was actually passing out one day, and I was having to pick her up in the street, and the cops came and stopped us, and I was like, She's diabetic. I need to get her over to Jack in the Box and get her some orange juice. And they actually helped me get her over there and we got her some orange juice.

SPEAKER_05: 19:30

Wait, was she actually diabetic?

SPEAKER_00: 19:32

No.

SPEAKER_05: 19:33

Oh, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 19:34

No, but I was trying, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05: 19:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 19:37

I didn't want to say, uh, we just smoked a bunch of PCP over there at the park, and you know, and so just whatever happened came to mind and it worked. And so we went to Jack in the Box and it scared me, you know. And at that time, people were doing really crazy things with it. Jumping on the top of cop cars, kicking people's asses, you know, and it it seems like K2 in today's world is about the same like that.

SPEAKER_05: 19:59

Yeah, it's like you think you're Superman on it.

SPEAKER_00: 20:01

Absolutely scary.

SPEAKER_05: 20:04

Yeah, and that's actually the one thing that K2 reminds me of. When I think K2, I also think PCP as well. Like which I've never done. I've never done PCP, honestly. But I've just the things I heard about it. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't have ever done it, you know. So back to me in high school, um I'm just doing all the things like I'm just being a class clown. I want people to like me and searching for validation, and I think fighting's cool. I think getting high is cool, I think um blacking out is cool. I'm ditching class. And eventually I remember my parents being really stressed out about it because they'd be like, I I was supposed to be home after school, and I would get like a D in school or something or an F, and then I'd have to like, okay, let me pick this back up and get it up to a C so my parents can get off my ass. And it's kind of like the whole thing, you know, like you're on probation, let me get the quartz off my ass, you know? And just that addict mindset, and that's crazy, even talking about it.

SPEAKER_00: 21:13

True though, right? You just learn to get you learn to get valid. Yeah, you know, you're you're you're talking about validation, eighth grade, seventh grade. Isn't that pretty common though? Don't we all just want to fit in and belong? Super common.

SPEAKER_05: 21:26

And I think all humans do.

SPEAKER_00: 21:29

Yeah, we all just want can the same thing. We all want connection, we all want love. We just go about it some crazy ass ways.

SPEAKER_04: 21:36

In ways like, let me harm myself for you to love me.

SPEAKER_00: 21:40

Yeah, it's really not all that hard. We just make it so hard uh from a young age because we're just trying to fit in. We're trying to get that love and acceptance, and you find your tribe that you feel it from, and that's the direction that you go. And that's why we have to be so careful when we're young or have young kids, you know?

SPEAKER_05: 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:01

Be paying attention to that.

SPEAKER_05: 22:02

Or picking our tribe.

SPEAKER_00: 22:03

Yeah, we gotta pick a good tribe for sure.

SPEAKER_05: 22:05

Yeah, where was where was I?

SPEAKER_00: 22:07

Uh we're like eighth grade-ish, we're not K2. We're we're doing all those things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 22:12

Yeah, my parents, yeah, yeah, yeah. My parents, I'd come home, they would want me home at a certain time, but I'd be out smoking weed with my friends, and then I'd come home super late, stoned, and then they they just like didn't know what to do with me. Like, they tried everything. They tried like you can't come home anymore. You have to go to your grandma's house after school, and then we'll pick you up, and then I would go to my grandma's house after school, and they'd be like, Well, you now you need to come straight home. It was just this insanity of like going back and forth, and uh they would like to take my door off of my room, and I would still sneak out. Like, you think I'm still not gonna sneak out? You know what I mean? I'm just gonna get sneakier. And uh they would try to just take things from me, and you know, like um I I was never able to really go out and live like a that high school experience that I wish I had uh lived because I was always in trouble and I could never do anything. So that yeah. And like I could have had so much more fun, you know? I could have had so much more fun if I was just not doing the things that I was doing. I didn't realize it at the time.

SPEAKER_00: 23:27

Yeah, I never I don't even know what a high school experience is actually is. I I don't have any idea what that's supposed to be or supposed to look like. Sounds cool, you know. I don't have any idea, I don't have nothing to reference that with.

SPEAKER_05: 23:40

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and then did you stick to one school? No in high school?

SPEAKER_00: 23:45

I got kicked out of junior high and two high schools.

SPEAKER_05: 23:49

Yeah. I got I got dropped from my high school too for not going to class. So I'm out of a lot of yearbooks. I've had an experience where I went and hung out with an old friend that had all the yearbooks, and I'm like, where am I?

SPEAKER_00: 24:03

You know, like that's crazy. I don't I was hanging out with a different crowd.

SPEAKER_05: 24:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 24:09

And so I don't really have that either. So I totally get that.

SPEAKER_05: 24:12

I think a lot of my friends, I don't know what a lot of them are doing. Some of them are doing good, and some of them I just don't talk to because they're not they're not good for my recovery.

SPEAKER_00: 24:23

Yeah, it's not your tribe anymore.

SPEAKER_05: 24:24

Mm-mm. Um love them though, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 24:28

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05: 24:30

So at 16 is when I start getting into speed. That's when I started doing meth for the first time. And I didn't know, you know, I didn't know it was meth. I had got so I let me backtrack. I had got sent to military school because I wasn't doing well in school. My parents were tired of my shit, and you know, I didn't want to go, but I did. Eventually I got accustomed to it and I I grew to like it. But at first I hated it. And but it was the best thing I probably had ever done for myself looking back on it. Um, and I I met my tribe in there, another tribe, you know. And I pushed myself in ways that I never thought I could push myself. I accomplished things that I never thought I could accomplish, and I got my GED at 16. And so, but when I get out, I'm hanging out with some people from in there. And I was the youngest kid in there. And so at that time, I feel like I looked up to everybody. Um, especially certain people I looked up to. And I some of the people I looked up to, I was hanging out with them on the outside and I seen them snorting something, which I thought was presented to be cocaine. Cause like I didn't know that you could snort meth. And I I'd never done cocaine. One day they just randomly come over to my house and they're like, hey, I got something for you. And I was like, oh hell yeah. And uh I did it, and then they told me it was, I'm pretty sure they told me it was coke. Um, could that for sure I was under the impression it was coke. Um, and I ended up finding out like five minutes later that it wasn't, and I was like, I was mad for a second, but then like I was like so heightened and just euphoric that I did not care. And uh that was like the moment I felt like I had arrived, like all my problems were gone. I'm the person that I always wanted to be. That's what I told myself because I wasn't like I was a really likable person, which is crazy. And I always, but I was still kind of shy, and I wanted to be more talkative. I wanted to be a person that talked a little bit more and was more confident, and that definitely made me talk more and feel more confident. And uh I had I always have this thought in my mind, this memory in my mind when I was at work and I was on it, and this little old lady, I went up to her and I was being super sweet with her, and she was like, I think she had like a cane, and I grabbed her by the arm and walked her to her car while I was high as hell. And I was like, This even makes me a better person. Like, I don't know how to fucking piece of shit. I care about people more on this, just all these things I told myself, and yeah, and maybe it did at that time, you know what I mean? In that moment.

SPEAKER_00: 27:28

In the beginning, in the beginning, that's really fair. It's fair to say that. Yeah, it's ten times the amount of a dopamine hit, a regular dopamine, right? So that's very fair to say in the beginning. Let me ask you this while we're talking about it. Remember that beginning feeling?

SPEAKER_05: 27:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:44

Remember how it never came back?

SPEAKER_05: 27:45

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_00: 27:47

Remember how you chased it now forever?

SPEAKER_05: 27:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:50

That was the messed up part.

SPEAKER_05: 27:52

The same thing that completes us also destroys us.

SPEAKER_00: 27:55

Absolutely. Because that feeling that first time doesn't come back.

SPEAKER_05: 27:59

Yeah, doesn't I I remember I got arrested for my first time at 16. So, like, also go back to school too. I go back to school, but I really don't care now. I come out of military school, my ego and my confidence is heightened. I I have a GED, you know? I couldn't go to college. They said I was too young to go to college, at least OSU did. So, like, I'm back in high school and I I'm in my head, I got a fucking high school diploma. Like, what what the fuck do I need to do here? I can do whatever the fuck I want. You know what I mean? Like, that's that was my mindset. And uh, I just thought I was the shit. And so I really just started doing whatever I wanted. And uh I ended up getting kicked out of PC West, and then I go to Putnam City Academy, which is on top of a jail. It's uh have you heard of it?

SPEAKER_01: 28:53

Uh uh.

SPEAKER_05: 28:54

It's a it's literally a uh a police station, and you go into the police station, then you go upstairs and you go to school. So you can't really do anything, but it was the worst school I ever went to. There's kids that were in line in the bathroom stall hitting K2, doing lines of Xanax in the in the bathroom, on the on the not the kitchen, the bathroom sink and oxy and just whatever. Everybody was just getting high in the bathroom, right in the police station. And I'm high every day, and but I'm actually doing good in school, like for the first time. I don't know why. I guess it was because it was on computer and I could look up all the answers to everything, and yeah, so I was doing good in school, but I got kicked out of there too because I was not coming home on the weekend. Um, my mom was getting pissed about it, and she dropped me out of school because I wasn't coming home on the weekend. I don't know what her logic was in it. I have no idea till this day. Yeah, I don't question her, you know. Yeah. She she was only doing what she knew. She's she tried everything, you know. And now I'm like, well, I'm actually do I was pissed because I was actually doing good in school when you fucking dropped me. Like, what? So now I'm not in school. I don't even remember how long I wasn't in school for, but I know that she sent me to that's probably what it was. She knew the school was bad. She knew the school was bad, and it probably wasn't good for me, so she sent me to Francis Tuttle. Um yeah, that was a much better school, but I can find someone who is just as fucked up as me so easily. Anywhere.

SPEAKER_00: 30:39

Anywhere, right?

SPEAKER_05: 30:40

Yeah, I can spot them from a mile away. Like, okay, that's that person right there.

SPEAKER_00: 30:45

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05: 30:47

I'm gonna get high with him. And you know, I I'm doing the same thing. I'm in culinary arts, I'm ditching class, uh, I'm getting into it with people at school. I get suspended for setting up this fight between two girls. One girl, one girl was like bullying me, and I was like, does she know who the fuck I am? That's a whole story though. I don't want to get into that. But yeah. Yeah, they ended up fighting and I got suspended for it right before prom and I'm kinda glad because I had I was glad at the time I was like, ooh, I just dodged a bullet because I had two prom dates.

SPEAKER_03: 31:23

And I was trying to figure out how to go about it and how to navigate with two girls and act like act like uh act like I wasn't, you know, like like hide them from each other in the same in the same room.

SPEAKER_01: 31:37

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05: 31:38

And that was the type of person I was. Like I like I've done that before. That before that situation, like I had I I was with two different girls at at some like fair thing, and I was like going back between both of them while they were both there, and they didn't even know somehow I I got away with it, but it wasn't right. You know what I mean? It was so it that was just the type of manipulative kid that I was and my pa with the parents that I had always catching me all the fucking time and having to relearn how to like how am I gonna get past it with them this time? How I'm just always being so innovative, I guess.

SPEAKER_00: 32:22

The next theme, right? What can I how do I do this better?

SPEAKER_05: 32:25

Yeah, and it made me really sneaky.

SPEAKER_00: 32:29

You got really good at being really sneaky.

SPEAKER_05: 32:31

Yeah. I got really good and I could get I would get caught smoking weed at school and get away with it, or the principal would catch me ditching and I'd just come up with a lie, and I would literally have food in my hand from whenever I left school. It was just it was kind of crazy the amount of things that I was able to get away with and uh and uh I think a big part of it too was like I looked really innocent.

SPEAKER_00: 32:58

I get that.

SPEAKER_05: 32:59

Yeah. Like there's no way this kid could do that, but I'm probably the worst kid that and you know, so I'm at Francis Huddle and I eventually get dropped from there for not going to class, and I had the whole victim mindset of like, well, why why are they kicking me out?

SPEAKER_00: 33:21

I do go to class, like they mean every class, they don't mean yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 33:28

And I think there was like one or two classes where I was there and they counted me late or absent, and uh because the the teacher didn't see me, but this the the number of times that you can actually be absent or I think was like up to 15 before you get dropped. And it's like okay, well, I was using those one or two times where I actually was there as a fucking but that one time I was actually there, but what about those other 14?

SPEAKER_04: 33:56

Yeah, like they got me fucked up. Like, what is wrong with you guys?

SPEAKER_00: 34:02

Yeah, yeah, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_05: 34:05

And I met a good friend there. I mean, someone that's close to my heart, I would say, till this day I met there, and you know, that was like me and him went through a lot together af around that time, and uh he was he was my thunder buddy, you know what I mean? It's who I got high with. And me and him did a lot of stuff with within from like 17 to 18, 20, I think. Um I know I was kicked out of school and at 17 my that whole summer, I just went and did a lot of things with them. I stole from, you know, like I was I stole a lot and you know, I I did a lot of stuff. I um after that summer, like I would go I went back home and then I did it again the next summer and it just got wilder and wilder. Um yeah, it it was it was pretty insane and the person I had turned into, and like I don't want to get too deep into that on here, but I I do want to say that I do want to say that I was under investigation, right? Like, and you know, I I ended up going to jail and um first time I went to jail, I got possession of CDS and larceny of an automobile. My parents were pissed about it. I got a lawyer, and my mom gave me my first get out of jail free card, my only. And when I I think it was that summer of when I was 18, I remember I started working at Coca-Cola, and I ended up getting fired from it. And I knew that was like my last straw with my parents. Like, if I get fired, I'm kicked out.

SPEAKER_01: 35:43

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05: 35:44

And I was so mad at God. And I remember just like putting my middle fingers up in the air and saying, Fuck you, why are you doing this to me? And at that point, I disowned God, and you know, like fired for. Huh?

SPEAKER_00: 35:58

Do you remember what you got fired for?

SPEAKER_04: 36:00

Not being at work, absences and tardies again.

SPEAKER_00: 36:03

Just thought I'd point that out that God might not have had much to do with that.

SPEAKER_05: 36:07

I'd be Yeah, right? I would be on acid driving a pallet jack, just hallucinating and somehow getting through the day. Like, just don't know how I did it. Someone told me one time, they said that a lot of times we tell these stories and it it kind of like boosts our ego, and we're like, well, thinking that we're the ones that got us through it, but in reality it was God watching over us the whole time, and that's always stuck with me because I was definitely being looked out for, even though I disowned God.

SPEAKER_00: 36:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 36:43

And the crazy thing is at one point in my recovery, I I wasn't even sure if I believed in God, but I hated and disowned you God at one point. So how did I not believe in God? You know?

SPEAKER_00: 36:53

Uh-huh. That's a good point. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_05: 36:56

But yeah, so I get fired from there, and I just know I'm cussing God out. I'm in the middle of a field, it's so dramatic. It's just this open field by myself. And my dad eventually he finds out and he's like, All right, well, you got a week to get your stuff out. And I'm like, Okay, well, I leave and just go do whatever I do for like two weeks, and I come back and I sneak into their house right before they go to work. And I knew how to sneak in there. Yeah. Even like this. Yeah, even if every window and door was locked, I knew how to sneak in there. Yeah, I would just go in the garage right before they go to work and hide. But um, yeah, I snuck in there, I fell asleep under my bed, but my leg was sticking out. I forgot I forgot to hide it.

SPEAKER_04: 37:51

Damn leg. Motherfucker's been giving me problems recently. Damn leg.

SPEAKER_01: 37:59

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05: 38:00

He seen me when he got home and he like drag Oh no, he came back home. I'm sure I had a car at that time, so I think I parked my car out front. I think I don't know. I don't really know. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't, but it's a blur. But he came back home and he fucking dragged me out from the bed and started yelling at me, and he kicked me out, and I had just got jumped two days before, so my face was already black, and he like threw me through two walls in a cabinet. Gosh. Brung the trash can inside, started throwing everything in the trash can. I was like, you gotta get out of here now. And I hurried up and called someone that I didn't even want to live with, and I was like, hey, let me move in, because that was my last resort. And I ended up moving in with that person. I got kicked out of there. I went to jail again. I think I'm selling drugs, and that's how I'm paying my rent. And I really don't remember why I got kicked out, but that dude had all my shit in the house, and I was planning on breaking in the house. I never did. I think I went to jail shortly after that, actually, and got my car taken away. And um, you know, I just I just keep going back and forth for like years after that, like couch hopping, and I stopped doing meth and traded out for party drugs like met Amolly, Ecstasy, Xanax. I was like, if I do this, I can stay off that. Now I'm blacking out all the time and waking up. Like, who knows what happened to me when I blacked out? People would have all these crazy stories, and I thought it was so cool. You know, at one point I was I was throwing parties while I was homeless at other people's houses just to stay at their house. Like I threw a party every day of the week and made it sound cool. Like, this is what we're gonna do, you know. Really, in reality, I'm just trying to fucking lay my head somewhere tonight. And eventually at the end of that week, I'm in some apartment on Lirewood, and this person's parents are yelling and like, get these bums off my floor. Um, and that was a real wake-up call for me. I was like, damn, I just got called a bum, and I'm actually like kind of homeless. I'm not fully homeless, but that's the road I'm headed to. You know, some some time goes by and I'm I'm just back and forth doing the same thing. Like at 21, I overdosed for the first time. Only time. And uh when I overdosed, I woke up in the hospital with blood all over me. Um, pretty sure my lungs collapsed. I don't know if I died or not. I didn't care. I didn't care what happened to me. So when people asked me, like, why were you did you have blood all over you? Like, why, you know, I really don't know. I think my lungs collapsed. Um, I think I died. I know I stopped breathing. They said I had pinpoint pupils, and I didn't even care to hear that. All I cared about was getting out of ICU, being able to walk again, and getting high as soon as I got out. And I remember them asking me questions, like doing assessment on me, like what I do now. Ask me, are you having suicidal ideations? And I'm like, no, leave me the fuck alone. You're not gonna get me. And I was gonna keep it from my family. And I remember when I finally got out of ICU and my lungs started getting better after doing breathing exercises, and that shit hurt. But I got out of ICU and I was going to the next floor. I seen my grandma in another room while I was in a wheelchair. And I I went past her room and I was like, there's no way. There's no way she's in the same hospital as me right now. I could like uh as fucked up as I was in my heart, I couldn't, I couldn't just go past her and not say anything. Cause I was like, what if this is the last time I'll ever get to see her? Like, what if she's dying? Um, so I I told the doctor to wheel me back into that room, and it sure enough was her. And she was like, What's going on with you? I don't I don't remember what happened to her. I think it was something to do with her blood sugar being low, maybe. But I was like, I had alcohol poisoning, but I had really overdose on fentanyl. And uh so and then I went to my room and now everybody knows.

SPEAKER_00: 42:19

Do you think that was a God thing?

SPEAKER_05: 42:20

Yeah, 100%. No, 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 42:23

What are the odds, right? What are the flipping odds of that coincidence, right?

SPEAKER_05: 42:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 42:29

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_05: 42:30

That's not just a coincidence.

SPEAKER_00: 42:32

No, I I don't really believe in coincidences, but I didn't know if you did, but like what are the odds of that, right?

SPEAKER_05: 42:37

Yeah, but the odds are really low. Really low. And that's how I felt in that moment, too, which is weird. I was like, that and at that time I was like, that's the universe. That's the universe telling me I had that conviction or that conviction in my heart at that moment. I didn't even realize it really. Um, at least the way that I do now. And yeah, my other grandma was there, my uncles, my mom and dad, and they're all asking me what happened. I'm making this bullshit ass story up, and they all just like, oh damn. And then everybody leaves except my mom and dad. And they are the only ones that I can't ever fool, no matter what. They're like, so what really happened? And I'm like, fuck. Uh so I told them, you know. Because I know I can't get shit past y'all.

SPEAKER_01: 43:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 43:24

I just know it. Yeah, I told them I don't remember how that conversation went at all. I got out and the first thing I looked for was those those the Roxys that I had. The fake Roxys, and I was mad that I didn't have them. And uh, you know, um, I didn't ever do those I don't think I ever did those again. But uh yeah, I don't remember. So let's fast forward to Where did you go when you left the hospital? I don't remember. I think I went to 10th Street. I think I went to 10th Street to these apartments and got high probably like on whatever I could find at the time. And so like fast forward to 23, I uh Yeah, I remember I remember I so like my ex-girlfriend that passed away, this isn't when I was 23, it was probably like when I was 21. Um I had seen her brother and I was high as hell and he was out of it, like he's not himself anymore. Um, it was really sad, and we were doing the same shit. Uh and he was smoking a bowl right in front of me, not making any sense, in psychosis, and I had so much pain from her passing that in that moment, my in that moment my heart was like stronger than my addiction. I was like, I'm not getting high with him. I was like, There's no way in hell. And he's smoking right in front of me, right? And uh and just saw her in him.

SPEAKER_00: 44:53

Yeah, and like again again, you find that to be a coincidence?

SPEAKER_05: 44:58

No, not at all. At all.

SPEAKER_00: 45:00

Yeah, that's pretty wild.

SPEAKER_05: 45:02

And he and so after I left, I remember crying for like a day straight. I'm just crying about it, and uh, you know, because that affected me a lot, and so did my the girlfriend that I met in middle school. I had treated her so badly throughout all the years, and she just loved the shit out of me, you know, and uh so now I want to go back to 23. Um pretty much homeless and it's snowing outside. I'm walking around like a twig with like a bandana around my face, and like I'm trying to find places to sleep. Like, I'll go in McDonald's and get something to hold my hand up to make it look like I'm texting with my hood up, and I'd be sleeping for a couple hours in there, and then I'd find somewhere to couch, and then I'd go sleep in like a broken down car outside of my parents' house. It's just going back and forth between that and then like selling what drugs I can just so I can get more drugs and eat like a dollar burrito from 7-Eleven. Uh, and I couldn't feel my fucking legs barely. And my dad caught me in the car one day and he freaked the fuck out. And he was like, I'm gonna call the cops or you're going to rehab. And I was like, Let's go to fucking rehab. Um, I went to fucking I called my insurance, my the insurance I had, and I was like, I want rehab. I want a rehab with a gym. They gave me that. They gave me a really nice treatment facility. It had like a huge gym and a hot tub with a personal trainer, and they flew me out to Indiana. And before I went, I was like, well, I'm yeah, I I got really fucked up before I went, and I I get there, and it's crazy too, because the first place I ever smoked weed was Indiana. And the cousin that I smoked with, his his mom came and visited me. And uh it's another coincidence, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00: 47:03

Yeah, and yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_05: 47:05

You know, I that's when I get shot out to California to do the PHP sober living deal. And when I was in rehab, I wasn't trying to get sober off of every like off of everything. Like I really just wanted to stop doing meth. Like, and I was like, I don't have a problem with alcohol. Famous last words. Yeah, yeah. I was like, I'll I'm I'm an addict, not not an alcoholic. When I went to California, I went to a meeting and I just I heard people talking and I was like, man, like they sound a lot like me. Um and I was like, maybe I am an alcoholic, and uh but I'm but like I feel like a part of me wanted it, but also a part of me was just trying to have a roof over my head and do whatever what the sober living wanted me to do. And uh I got all the way to my four step, relapsed at like five months, went to the bar out in California, got in trouble, stayed sober for a little bit, got in trouble, and my insurance ran out. I had to move into a self-pay sober living in California. No, okay, I don't remember exactly what I just know that I I relapsed. I remember going back to treatment like at like six or seven months. They flew me back out to Indiana. I was so mad, I did not want to be there. I was like, I'm right back at square one. I'm wearing these same exact clothes from my addiction. My fucking my uh luggage got lost at the airport. I only have one pair of clothes, and it's the pair of clothes I wore when I was getting high, and I had these really busted up vans on with holes all in them, and so I'm sitting in these same clothes for three days mad. Like I'm the same fucking person. You know what I mean? Like finally found my luggage, gave it back, and uh my first day in treatment, I got high. I got high right as soon as I stepped in the door, pretty much, because my old friend from six months ago was actually there, and so were seven other people from seven months ago, all the way across from the United States. And a lot of these people were it from different states. It was just fucking it was crazy to me. And uh they put me in a room, they they took me out of detox really quick because I think it had been like a couple days before I used and they put me downstairs with my old friend, and he had fentanyl on him, and I I did fentanyl for the second time in treatment, and uh then a week later my buddy got out and I did meth with him right before he left because he found it in his luggage. So I'm getting high in treatment now, and but like I'm p like that come down, I was pissed, and uh I'm like, when am I gonna get better? You know what I mean? Like I'm in treatment, getting high. What am I doing? I they fly me back out to California. I stay there for like two months maybe, up until my probation officer's like, yeah, you have to come back to Oklahoma. Because I was actually dodging probation too.

SPEAKER_01: 50:07

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05: 50:09

But treatment trumps probation, so they they couldn't really do anything about it. And uh but they did. They they did do something about it because I was on a six-month and they made when I come back, it was five years, five year deferred. Then I messed that up somehow, and I get a warrant for my arrest. Um, I come back out and get back with my middle school sweetheart, and I just completely ruin it. Just like destroy it, and uh I start drinking with her every well, every here and there, and then um smoking weed. And you know, my my life wasn't like fully out of control in that sense where I was drinking all the time because uh she was my drug at that time.

SPEAKER_01: 50:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_05: 50:55

And when I lost that drug, I went off the deep end and went off on the worst bender of my life. I was still trying to go to meetings, but it just wasn't working for me. I I just wasn't there yet. And uh eventually I did heroin for the first time, which I always stayed away from. And uh but I don't remember doing it the first time, but I remember wanting to do it. Like I remember I want to die and maybe this will kill me. And I ended like I don't remember because I I found out that the day I did it, I was on Xanax. So a month or or two months down the line, I'm sitting here getting high on heroin, and I'm like, how did I get addicted to heroin? Like what I don't even remember. And my buddy was like, Yeah, you were on Xanax at so-and-so's house, and I gave it some to you, and you yeah, every don't even remember. It's crazy. And uh ended up trying to kill myself. It was early on with my heroin addiction. I got fronted like a gram of heroin, and I was like, you know what, I'm not even gonna pay this back. I'm going to just kill myself. I'm gonna smoke it all, smoke it all. And it didn't kill me. I kind of just it was almost like I was just having a seizure for an hour straight. I I was just like rocking back and forth and like shaking and crying at the same time, like, and I barely remember it. And uh, I just remember it fucking sucked. And when I started fly like kind of coming out of it, I remember grabbing a knife and putting it to my throat and walking back and forth, and I was like, I'm gonna do it. And then I was like, what if I survive this? I was like, this. I was like, now I'm just gonna have a huge scar on my neck and who knows what else. I always told myself I'm the type of person to to not die in my addiction. I'm the type of person to just live hell on earth, like just go through it constantly and go through the fucking most and get put through the ringer. And that to me, that was just so fuck the thought of that was just so awful. And uh my uh eventually my roommate kicked me out and I my car broke down all within the same day. Fast forward till towards the end, right? Of that, I uh I remember I was sitting there in this trap house. My plug wasn't even getting me high no more. And uh I was like before rehab, I did not care about anything. I didn't care about anybody else. I would steal your your sh I wouldn't really steal much from the people that were enabling me, but I would steal from everyone else around them, right? Everybody else in the world, and uh but when I went to rehab, something changed those nine months. Something changed. Like I had conviction every time I stole something. I did not like doing what I was doing. I fucking hated it. I remember trying to play the good guy while I was out there, and I'd be in these trap houses and like anybody still, I'm gonna fuck you up. Like, you know what I mean? Like, don't steal from here. I was like trying to be a superhero, super weird. But I and I so I was in this trap house and my my plugs stopped giving me drugs. Um, and he's just let me stay there, and I remember just fucking being so depressed. And uh I remember crying all the time. And I I remember having like this this random, what they say, like psychic change. And I was sitting there and I remember asking myself, why can I not stop crying? Because I cried every day. I was like, I can't stop crying, like I can't control this feeling. And my buddy walked in the room and I made myself stop crying, and then when he walked out, I started crying again, and I I thought to myself, and I was like, Well, if I can stop crying when he walks in the room, then I can control my feelings. And then something clicked right there, and then I remember sitting there and I was like, I'm gonna end up because I was getting real homicidal, and I was already suicidal, and I was like, I'm gonna end up really hurting somebody and going to prison or dying or living hell on earth, or I'm I'm just gonna live hell. Yeah, like I was like, I can't sit here and just try to be a good guy in a bad situation. I was like, I either gotta go go all in as the bad guy or go all in as the good guy. That's what my thought process was. And I told myself, I'm gonna get sober. It's like, fuck this. I'm not going to prison, I'm not living like this anymore. And you know, there's a lot of trials between that moment and the time I got sober, but I really fucking tried. You know, I really fucking tried with what I knew. I fucking ran from that house and never looked back. And he he ended up get going to prison shortly after that, too. Something told me to just get out of there. And eventually I go to this job and I become homeless while I'm working there. I get kicked out of my parents, and I'm sleeping in the back of a box truck, working every day for a month or two, and it fucking sucked. I would have to take showers at in this bar. This bar had a shower in it, and everybody'd be getting drunk coming in. I'd I'd just be showering in the fucking bathroom. And uh, but I wouldn't do that every day because I was too embarrassed to. So I smelled really bad a lot, and I did a I fucked up a lot in that time too. My boss took a lot of money from me too while I was sleeping in the back of that box truck. Um, he took almost three grand from me, but he also helped me out. It was like a a really weird give and take. And uh I don't talk to him anymore because like I just look back at it and I've I I was being used in a sense, but we were using each other, right? And uh I was really good at what I did, you know, and there's a high turnover rate, and a lot of people didn't want to work there because of the things that he was doing to other people, but I just submitted to it. I just submit like I was rather do this than be homeless. I would rather do this and be homeless. And for a miracle, because miracles do happen. I mean, I was homeless, I was had nowhere to go, and then I ended up in a mansion in California. You know, there's miracles that do happen, and there's even smaller ones than that. You think you're alone, and then that one person pops up into your life, and you're like, damn, okay, I feel connection again. It's like little stuff like that. And I was just holding on to that little bit of hope. And uh, someone I met in California hits me up and he's like, Hey, do you need somewhere to stay? And I'm like, Yeah, I do. He's like, I'm in a sober living. This dude I met in California and he's up the street from me in Oklahoma City. And he's like, I'll come pick you up. And I kind of procrastinated. And if I would have procrastinated not even five minutes longer, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have worked at landmark recovery, I wouldn't have met you, most likely. I mean, who knows? But like the way things lined up wouldn't have lined up the way that they did because when he picked me up, he was high. And as I was getting put in the house, he was getting kicked out.

SPEAKER_00: 57:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_05: 57:52

Um and I had I don't think I ever saw him again after that.

SPEAKER_00: 57:56

No kidding.

SPEAKER_05: 57:57

No, I've talked to him on the phone, but I've never s I've I've never seen his face again after that.

SPEAKER_01: 58:03

No.

SPEAKER_05: 58:04

He he's doing his own thing, and I'm always gonna be grateful for that that moment. And my house manager worked at Landmark, and eventually I you know, I got high in the house a couple times. I got tired of it though, and I realized what I was doing wrong, and it was hanging out with people that were still getting fucked up. And once I completely cut all those people out, and was when I got sober for two and a half years. And I started my own company my first year, and I worked at Landmark and you know, starting to I started my own moving company because I was tired of that motherfucker, you know. Like I was like, I was like, I'm not gonna be I wanted to be like a company that like had integrity and cared about the customers just as much as that I cared about my uh I don't like saying employees as the people that worked with me.

SPEAKER_00: 58:56

The team.

SPEAKER_05: 58:57

Yeah, and uh in my first year with nothing, I didn't have any money. Um and it was I got really successful off of it and you know I got my first car off the lot. Um, but what's even better is I found God in that time. Uh and I don't know, I just had like the a moment with prayer that's a part of my testimony, even because I I would pray for others, like God out for myself to thee to do with me as thou wilt. And I was just doing that because someone told me to do it, right? And I did that for like two months, and one day, like I kind of changed up the prayer, and I was like, God, give me the opportunity to help somebody today without using money. Give me the opportunity to help somebody using my hands and my words. And as soon as I got off of that prayer, someone called me for help, but like I wasn't making much money helping them, and I got mad because I was in sober living, I had all these court costs, probation. Um, I was in just so much debt to the system. And so I was mad and I threw I like I threw my phone on the ground, started yelling, and I remembered what I prayed about. And my anger went away. My anger instantly went away when I remembered what I prayed about, and I was like, if this can take my anger away, then I want to keep doing it. And uh yeah, um, I got two and a half years, I accomplished a lot of goals. I accomplished just about everything that I set out for myself whenever I first got sober. Not everything, majority of what my mind could comprehend and come up with I was able to achieve.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:34

And uh and then I relapsed and when you look back at that, when you look back at that, what did that look like?

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:44

What did what look like?

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:45

So when you relapsed, you were two and a half years sober, yeah, and you were probably feeling pretty good about your sobriety, right?

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:53

You're good now.

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:54

Yeah, yeah, I'm good. I stopped working a I stopped working a program. I started chasing validation again. Landmark, it was like I was using that as my recovery. So when it got shut down, I didn't have anything like in my Head, you know what I mean? I just started going feral. Like I just that was your justification. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:19

You justified it. Well, this happened, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:01:22

And um, you know, I started jumping from relationship to relationship for like a year and a half, and it really tore me up. And I relapsed at one point because of it, but I I came back through prayer, through prayer, and uh I never let go of prayer that time because like every other time I relapsed and I was in recovery, I stopped praying, but that time I didn't because I had that testimony for myself that it works, and I knew that it worked, and then I that's how I got sober the second time. I didn't go to treatment, I had my own house, but I wasn't doing very well. Like I was mentally mentally financially, and you know, uh eventually I kinda just like got out of that and uh started like realizing my worth and stopped chasing validation and lowering my values. Still working on that right now, you know. I uh now I got a little over a year and my problems are are different than they were a year ago, than they were three years ago. I got a job where I can help people every day, and it and it's stressful, it's at times, but I bitch and complain about it. I've been bitching and complaining about it recently, but at the end of the day, like deep down, like I know that this is making me better, this is making me stronger. I'm learning how to overcome things that I've never been had never never been um subjected to. That makes sense. And there's times I do get overwhelmed, and there's times I don't, you know. Um, and I'm okay with that today. I I'm constantly working on myself, I'm constantly doing stuff like this, getting out of myself and making myself uncomfortable. And I'm gonna get overwhelmed doing that, you know, especially right now, until I I grow to become grow to become that person I want. And and like I am somebody that I never thought I could be right now. And I have to remind myself to give myself grace. Lots of grace, lots of grace, yeah, lots of grace, and because just like that kid that was holding that older woman's arm, you know, and was like, I'm actually a better person. I I've done that in sobriety. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I've been able to be that selfless person in sobriety and caring and get that part of me out naturally too, and it's not it's not forced.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:55

Your accountability, your accountability level now is completely different than it once was. Completely different. You try to stay in self-awareness all the time.

SPEAKER_06: 1:04:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:08

You are always thinking about what could I do different? What could I do better? How could I handle this? That's constant for you now, where it doesn't sound like it was before.

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:18

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:20

Um You said something to me, I think it was today, it might have been yesterday, um, about having to be who you want to attract what you want.

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:30

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:31

And when you were in full blown in your addiction, that was never for you.

SPEAKER_06: 1:04:38

No, ever, never.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:39

So that's growth, right?

SPEAKER_06: 1:04:41

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:43

Responsibility, growth. What do you do now when you get overwhelmed? How do you what is your coping skills now that you've learned when you get overwhelmed?

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:51

To me, it it just depends sometimes. Like the other day, like I was overwhelmed, and my friend asked me to speak in front of a group of people. They asked me to just come through, and I was like, no, like I don't want to do it. But then they're like, Do you want to speak instead? I was like, instantly, because I need to get out of myself right now, help me help someone, you know, the old thing. But sometimes I have to check myself and be selfish, self-care, you know, go in solitude and boundaries. Yeah, boundaries, take care of myself, brush my teeth.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:27

All good things. Make sure I don't brush my teeth and my hair at the same time because I have things, you know, the job that you have now, you're helping people every day, right?

SPEAKER_06: 1:05:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:38

And you're actually doing assessments with people that you have had that same assessment done with you, right?

SPEAKER_06: 1:05:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:45

So coming at it uh from a place of compassion, right? And know it like having that in your mind, kind of how you think this person might be feeling at this time.

SPEAKER_06: 1:05:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:56

Is a whole different way to look at life.

SPEAKER_05: 1:06:00

Yeah, 100%. You're going to think I could I don't think I could do it if I never got that assessment.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:06

Absolutely. Right? Absolutely. This is a very difficult field to work in as it is, right? Mm-hmm. Um, because there is we do lose people. We do lose people, we do lose friends, yeah. We lose people that we care about, that we lose ourselves. But being able to share your story and have being able to look back on where you were to where you are, and to be able to share that hope and strength and encouragement with others is huge.

SPEAKER_06: 1:06:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:39

It's a large part of recovery. That 12th step of giving back is a large part of recovery. And you might have been using landmark as your recovery, but you realize that you have to stay in it yourself. You have to do the things necessary to stay in it. If your job was gone tomorrow, you still have to be conscientious of your own recovery.

SPEAKER_05: 1:07:02

Yes, one hundred percent. And so that's a that's a big that's a I thought I could just do it on my own and go to meetings every once in a while.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:10

Yeah. As you know, I mean you we talk and you know my life is pretty much recovery from morning till nighttime, and sometimes you get woke up through the night with it, right?

SPEAKER_05: 1:07:21

Yeah. You're like up at like 4 a.m.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:24

Sometimes um trying to get somebody somewhere, right? Because we know what that's like, right? We know it's like to not know what to do or where to go or how even be in the right mind frame to be able to think those things through. Like I just need to pick up the phone. That thought process just doesn't always happen unless somebody's telling you. 988, let's get you set up with mobile, let's do the, you know, okay, I can do that, I can do that, I can do the steps, but sometimes you can't do anything and you just freeze.

SPEAKER_06: 1:07:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:58

When you're in that state of mind, right?

SPEAKER_06: 1:08:00

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:02

And you you're coming at that from a a different place now. That's pretty cool, huh?

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:06

It is pretty cool. And that that's a um that's a gift in itself. Been huge on looking at what my gifts are and looking at what other people's gifts are and being able to share that with someone else is a gift.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:24

It is absolutely a gift.

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:27

And that's you being able to give yourself validation too. When not having to get it somewhere else.

SPEAKER_06: 1:08:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:34

First loving yourself and not having to ask someone else to do it first.

SPEAKER_06: 1:08:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:38

That's pretty big.

SPEAKER_06: 1:08:39

We got some cool gifts.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:40

We do got some cool gifts. We we're not so bad, right?

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:46

Yeah, no. You got some different gifts though.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:49

Than I do. Your gift helps different people than I can help. You know what I mean? Just because your experience is di a little different than mine. And that's what's like so cool about uh the recovery community is like not everybody can help everybody, but there's always someone to help someone.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:09:06

Um and that's what we all need each other for.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:09

Yeah, and figuring out we're not alone, right? Alone. I went to the um Western Club for the first time. It was the end of September, for the first time in a very long time. Because as a group facilitator, I didn't really go to meetings because we weren't supposed to um co-mingle, right? And um so I couldn't believe there was like 200 and something people there. At the Western Yeah, the Western Beginners and Slippers Club that night. Three stories, right? And I was like, I cannot believe how many people are here. That was incredible to me.

SPEAKER_06: 1:09:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:47

That's how many gifts that the people in that room have and all the things that everybody can share to help the next person when there's that many people is pretty crazy. Incredible. That was I was surprised. I was in a good way, like in a good way. So that was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_05: 1:10:05

That's uh a miracle on that shelf.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:07

I know, and I loved I loved that. My my whole little thing that I say all the time is connection is the opposite of addiction, and we're all we're all together, and I really do believe that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:17

I always forget that saying, I always forget it. Yeah, but it's so it's so true though.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:23

Honestly, I think Yo Johan Yari was the one that said something about connection and addiction, and I made it whatever I twisted it into. I truly believe that.

SPEAKER_05: 1:10:34

No, you said that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:35

Well, I said that, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:10:36

Yeah, you said you came up with that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:38

Yeah, connection is the opposite of addiction, and we're all in this together because I really believe that's true. Um, addiction it's a community disease, it touches everybody in some way, shape, or form. Families and loved ones, and um, I really do believe that we all can help in some way. Even just like even just being there to listen to somebody or there to do that assessment for someone that needs it or whatever it may be. You know, we all help each other in ways that we may not even know sometimes.

SPEAKER_05: 1:11:10

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes someone just wants to be heard too.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:14

Something that you try to do every day that really works for you.

SPEAKER_05: 1:11:17

Something I try to do every day that really works. Something recently that I've been trying to do is be more transparent with the people around me and just not care about how it affects them. And I'm not saying in like a negative way, like kind of just like not people pleasing and trying to like be open and honest with others. So just kind of accepting yourself as you are, yeah, accepting myself and and then in a way to help somebody too, you know. Even if it's a hard conversation. Yeah, that that's something that I've been working on. I heard a saying the other day, I think I told you this, and it says, My love is unconditional, but my presence has standards.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:09

Mm-hmm. Really good.

SPEAKER_05: 1:12:11

And I love that saying so much. Uh it's it's something that really spoke out to me, and it's because I've been working on boundaries heavy, and uh the you know, the old saying, like, you gotta teach people how to treat you. That's a big thing for me right now because I've been stepped on a lot and it's caused a lot of problems for me, you know. And I I've allowed a lot of things into my life that I shouldn't never shouldn't be allowing, and then and then in return, like it just it destroys me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:43

Yeah. And I feel like we repeat the lessons until we finally learn them. Until we finally go, okay, I pretty much had enough of that one. I'm going to do this differently from now on. And I think some of that is just having a good heart. You have a good heart, so you want to see the best in people. And you also want the validation at the same time. So people can see that from a mile away, right?

SPEAKER_06: 1:13:09

Yeah. For sure.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:11

And I think sometimes that vulnerability is on our forehead, you know?

SPEAKER_06: 1:13:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:17

I know it's on mine. I mean, that's how I got caught up from such a young age. It said it was like a blinking light on my forehead, right?

SPEAKER_06: 1:13:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:24

My friend Jim used to tell me when we would go out partying, turn off your freak light, they're coming. Because the craziest shit would happen to us, you know. He'd just be like, How come when I'm with you, the craziest shit happens? I'm like, it's just just my life, dude. And he's like, Turn off your freak light already. Your freak light. Yeah, that's what he used to call a turn light. What color is that? I don't even know. It was apparently blinking a lot though, back in the day. Because it was really true. It was just like the weirdest, craziest shit would happen. And um, people would be like, Let me go party with you tonight. Some weird shit's gonna happen. Yeah, it was just it was just weird. I don't know. And I think it was that people could see that I was a good person, right?

SPEAKER_06: 1:14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:03

And even though I wasn't doing the greatest of things, people could still see it, even though I was trying to do everything I could to hide it. Yeah, trying not to be soft in every way, shape, and form. And I I think finally just being who you are is when it changes, right? I think that's it actually all kind of falls into place when we just being secure within yourself. Yeah, yeah. Living our truth, being authentic, and just being secure and not giving a fuck anymore.

SPEAKER_05: 1:14:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:29

I don't know, I don't know if there's a certain age that happens, but I can tell you it's happened.

SPEAKER_05: 1:14:33

It's happening with me. I'm starting to not give a fuck.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:37

It's happened. Because I I um I feel like the people now are gonna f our tribes are gonna find us, right? We have to put ourselves with the right tribe. And like and like when we were younger, we could find the person across the room. Like I know that motherfucker over there parties, right?

SPEAKER_06: 1:14:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:52

I think it's the same now about finding our tribe who we are today.

SPEAKER_06: 1:14:56

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:58

We find each other, right? We just find each other and like you and I don't work together anymore. We haven't worked together in a very long time. We still talk.

SPEAKER_05: 1:15:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:07

Right? And so I think you just even outside of just work.

SPEAKER_05: 1:15:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We I mean we don't work together on a on a day-to-day anymore, right? And so like you just find your people, right? You just find who you um connect with on whatever level that is, yeah. Um, and I it just happens, I think, naturally now. There's no force to it, you know what I mean? Nobody's forcing nothing. I think we just find our people naturally now.

SPEAKER_05: 1:15:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:32

So that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_05: 1:15:33

And I feel like I found you naturally.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:36

Yeah, absolutely, right? Absolutely. Just what I can say is what you said to me, I think it was either yesterday or today. I don't know, don't quote me. But you said about learning to be the person, being the person that you expect and want to be with, right?

SPEAKER_05: 1:15:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:57

And I think that is when you meet your person.

SPEAKER_05: 1:16:00

Yeah. And I think that me doing that'll manifest, manifest it into reality.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:05

If you're doing the next right thing, you're going to your soul tribe or your people that are going to come for you are the other people that are doing the next right thing. So we will manifest that for you today. It's out there, it's in the universe. It's in the universe. Working on you right now, and that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_05: 1:16:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:33

So anyway, thank you.

SPEAKER_05: 1:16:35

Yeah, thank you for having me on.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:37

Thank you for coming on.

SPEAKER_05: 1:16:38

It was fun. I needed that and I think I just me talking about a lot of things kinda like brought out some realizations for myself, saying it out saying my story out loud. So that was really cool.