20 Years Sober : When Trauma, Anxiety, And Alcoholism Collide with Guest - Charles Gossett

Rock bottom is not always loud at first. Sometimes it starts as a child who feels everything deeply, a teen who can’t shut off anxiety, and an adult who finds one perfect switch that makes the whole body relax for the first time. My guest, Charles Gossett, walks us through a 20-year sobriety story that includes a loving upbringing in Oklahoma City, perfectionism, panic, depression, and the moment alcohol stopped feeling like a choice and started feeling like survival.

We get into the truth families live with: addiction “works” until it doesn’t, and then it takes everyone down with it. Charles shares what it was like to relapse after treatment, how denial shows up even when you’re smart and self-aware, and how a suicide attempt and psychiatric hospitalization didn’t magically fix the problem. We talk about the guilt and remorse that can follow, and why shame is not the same thing as accountability.

One of the most important threads is the family system side of recovery: enabling, codependency, and the turning point that came when his wife found Al-Anon, built support, and set firm boundaries to protect herself and their kids. From there we track what helped sobriety stick: treatment, sober living, AA sponsorship, step work, and enough time alcohol-free to learn real coping. We also talk reintegration and purpose, including why Charles now coaches and supports recovery culture at work.

If you care about addiction recovery, alcoholism, mental health, trauma healing, 12-step support, Al-Anon boundaries, or rebuilding a life after relapse, this conversation will stay with you. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs hope, and leave a review with the takeaway you’re going to try this week.

Connect with Charles-Full Integration Coaching

Fullintegrationcoaching.com

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Background

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Good evening and welcome to Breakfast of Choices. Stories from rock bottom to rock solid. I have my guest today with me named Charles Gossett. Known Charles for, I don't know, about a year, year and a half now. Charles works in treatment capacity just as I do and in recovery and has been in recovery for a long time. We're going to hear his story today. He also owns and operates full integration coaching as well as works for Pathways in Oklahoma City, which encompasses Country Road Treatment Center, along with their new residential detox program called Renewal Springs. So it's pretty exciting, Charles. You got a lot going on.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Very excited about all of those things and really grateful to be with you on your show, Joe.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Thanks so much for coming on tonight. I know you're a pretty busy guy, so I always appreciate that. Rush home and jump on. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

All good. Yeah. Plenty of time.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

So how long have you been in recovery, Charles?

SPEAKER_03 0:58

So this February actually marked 20 years of continuous sobriety for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

So that is so amazing because on this podcast, you know, we talk a lot about recovery, sobriety, all of those things. But for someone to be listening to hear a long-term sobriety story of 20 years is pretty amazing, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:18

It is. And for those that are in recovery or can identify with that word in any way, shape, or form, to say 20 years is strange also. It's still kind of a newness to it all the time. And that's what I like to tell people keep it fresh. But it's also kind of a time warp sort of thing in your mind to realize it has been two decades of sobriety. That's, you know, a very different life from the one that I lived before.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Do you, with with that being said, that 20 years, do you still attend meetings at all? Do you still attend any type of meeting?

SPEAKER_03 1:51

I attend 12-step-based meetings very occasionally. I did very heavily for about five to seven years. And that was Alcoholics Anonymous. I'm I feel good about saying that

Twenty Years Sober Today

SPEAKER_03 2:05

publicly for those that are interested. And I've attended other support meetings as well. And I'm active in a faith community, active in spiritual communities, and then I have a social network that's very supportive and beyond recovery.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Yeah. And then with working in recovery too, it's fresh in your face all the time as well. Because what we don't want to do is forget, right? We don't want to forget, but we don't want to dwell either. So there's that, there's that balance and that that line there too. So share with me a little bit about your story, Charles. I shared with you earlier. I really don't know your whole story. So I I'm hearing this from beginning myself right now.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

Yeah, Joe. So I'll share a version of it today, and feel free to come in at any point and you know, share your own thoughts or have questions for me. Glad to answer how I can. So I grew up in northwest Oklahoma City. I would say middle class, lower middle class, blue-collar family. So my dad was um a factory worker, worked hard, uh, did good work. And my mom was mostly an at-home parent and at-home mom growing up. And she occasionally worked uh part-time at jobs for a little bit of income here and there. And um I went to Putnam City Schools for those that know the area of Oklahoma City proper, that may be listening. If you don't know, you're listening from somewhere around the world. That's Oklahoma City's in the middle of the state of Oklahoma, U.S. And we're in the northwest part of Oklahoma City. And Putnam City is a large school district. So grew up and attended Putnam City Schools and graduated from Putnam City Original High School. I have one sibling, a sister who's two and a half years older than me. And we grew up with a lot of love in the house and a lot of play outside in the street and in the neighborhood, and that was safe. And come home when it's dark, and there's too late, and absolutely, and all of those things. And our family was not perfect, you know, and there were things that were not perfect that went on in our family. But we always had a lot of love and the intention to really care very well for each other, and that was very evident from an early age. I grew up around also around extended family, so especially on my mom's mom's side. So my grandma and my mom's side. So this is Oklahoma culture, and I think she graduated with 18 people in her schoolhouse. And so, you know, half or more of my family is from the country, and I grew up in the city, but I could definitely go there um and have that in my blood. So they lived on a couple of acres in uh metro, Oklahoma City area, and we spent a lot of time there, and they liked to camp, and there would be 50 people um at their house for family events, and so that was kind of the the glimpse of sort of my neighborhood, school, family life, outdoors was always big. My dad was an amateur, very good amateur gardener, and both my mom and my dad still have a zest, you know, a real zeal for life. And so that that was the formative years. And I always did well in school. So I'm one of these, for those that attend meetings, the intellectually self-sufficient one can figure things out, except for addiction. Right. Which gets us in trouble. So if anyone's listening, you think I just haven't figured this out yet. You won't.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

That's okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

Yeah, it's okay. It's okay. You need to use your thinking in a different direction. It won't, it won't get you there. So I always, you know, I tested very high in the aptitude test and top 1% in

Childhood Gifts And Sensitivity

SPEAKER_03 6:05

the country on standardized testing and honors and achiever and very shy, very withdrawn, very attuned to the world and the people around me, very, very curious and always extremely sensitive emotionally. So I've learned a lot about that over the years, but that's how I grew up. So I would take things very, very hard in class that would bring me to tears, and others would be surprised. That that happens several times. High empath, that type of sensitivity, but also just sensitive like through your senses, like hearing and paying attention and noticing, observant, and really trying to figure out like what is this thing about? Whatever the thing is, it really doesn't matter. So whether it's the English language or nature or how someone thinks who they are, those you know, pretty nerdy that way, but really just wired naturally towards towards those things.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 7:06

Yeah, I'm really, really grateful for those gifts, and that's what I call those. I didn't come up with that.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

That came with the package. I'm thankful for that.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

And so that's that's how I grew up. When really starts to get into, I know this is the focus is breakfast of choices and involves healing and overcoming and a lot of our certain recovery that are on the show. About the age of 10, right around there, something changed at home. And so for family members that might be listening to my story, I'm always, you know, careful and caring. My family was not perfect, but something was going on at home that was just not completely okay. And I couldn't identify that at the time. And I just know it was it was disturbing to me in some way, shape, or form. Still a lot of love, but there was confusing things, and there was raised voices, and there was more issues and problems at home. And I remember distinctly like wandering around on the playground at one, I can't picture at what age I was exactly, wandering around all by myself on the playground, just what I would call absolutely in panic anxiety. I had no idea what it was then, uh 10 or 11, and twirling my hair and pulling it out and putting it in my pocket. And again, if family's listening, I'd like to respect them. Uh, that's not their fault. That's just what was going on for me and what was around me. So um a teacher noticed and called my parents and my parents, of course, being loving and caring. And my mom came and got me and was worried. And I remember laying down and still pulling my hair out and putting it under the pillow. And so I've learned that's, you know, that's distress from a young person. Um, adults could do that too, but that would be called trauma. You know, so there was some trauma happening, and I didn't know what to do with it. And so I don't want to go too far into what that was or what it might have been, but certainly involved conflict and confusion. Yeah. And so that was lodged somewhere in me right around that age.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Was it being talked about in your home? Was anything being it was just you were feeling it. You were feeling the energy.

SPEAKER_03 9:16

Right. I you know, super sensitive and like picking up on something, something's off.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

And yeah, you know, and we're pretending, but I I'm pretty good at seeing through pretending. I always have been.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

It's definitely off, and you're not sure what it is, and that's just coming out in distressing ways for you. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

Right. So looking backwards now at as a 51-year-old, looking back four years, I'm like, I didn't know how to cope with that, understandably. So again, for listeners, if you've been through something and this is starting to surface memories in you, it's not uncommon, you know, that may need some healing, some more kind of attention for you if you're looking for recovery or in your own journey. I know it did for me. And so, um, you know, it was very active in sports too. And so I had these, you know, just kind of I would call it multi-abled again, giftedness. And then I try really hard also.

Early Anxiety And Hidden Trauma

SPEAKER_03 10:10

And that comes from my family. Gritty family, fourth generation Oklahoma. Like I said, my grandma graduated with 18 people. My great-grandparents, I knew them for a few years, and they literally farmed cotton and picked it with their hands. So the roots go back pretty deep.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

And so there's a lot of resilience, and there's a lot of like not learning how to cope with life the most effectively.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Would you say perfectionism on your side?

SPEAKER_03 10:33

Absolutely. Absolutely perfectionism.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:37

For those that may be interested, if you if anyone knows about like family systems and family roles, my role in the family growing up became at that point forward the hero type role. Like, hey, it's okay. Maybe we can figure this out, you know? Right. It's why it's why I do what I do today, except for with boundaries.

unknown 10:58

Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

We're gonna be okay. And so try to we're all gonna be okay, and I can contain that. I can contain that, you know. And if it's not, if I can't figure it out, then I can be really funny. Whatever it takes, and I'll achieve, and we won't have to worry about this anymore, and somehow it'll go away. Yeah. Not uncommon in families, you know. By the time I was, I'll cut to the chase, right? Because I'm 15 minutes. Uh by the time I I I got to uh the age of 14 or 15, I'd really started that rebellious phase that I would have had anyway. But it was laced with more like anger and rage and looking for a place to go, and more and more of what I didn't know what we called anxiety. So by this time, I already would have it would have been diagnosed in general anxiety disorder. I had acute depression from time to time. I didn't know that then. I knew I was down. And my parents found therapists and tried to help with that and started talking a little bit about that. But the challenges at home got more challenging during my teenage years, and it was sometimes frightening. And by the time that I was 15, I remember this very well that I had access to more than enough alcohol to get me over the line into intoxication. Um, I remember that moment very well. And I'm I had not been drunk before, and I remember just thinking, wow, this is amazing. I'd had a few drinks in the past now and then, but once I found alcohol could do that, that was that was new. It like my whole body relaxed. I would and I, of course, I felt good, you know, it lit up my brain. Um, and I just thought, this is amazing. Where's this been? And so in the in the rooms again, when they say that, or if there's loved ones listening, that that alcohol and drugs and other substances are a solution for us, that's what they mean. For me, I didn't, I didn't know how to get to, oh my gosh, I'm okay. And well, and I feel really good. But it's like, I'm just okay, though, underneath all of that. All the mind-blowing alcohol effect.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Yeah, well, yeah, you're not feeling anything, no anxiety, and you're just feeling the effects of alcohol now, not having to feel anything else, just masking and numbing. And it at the time, before you know what that is, it feels really good.

SPEAKER_03 13:25

It resolved anxiety for me, you know, which it does in the early days. That's why we do it, especially for those of us with anxiety. You find something that slows you down or distracts you or bends your mind and your reality, and you're like, oh, this is better. Because it is, but it's not resolving what's actually going on in you underneath. It's just giving you a little break. And then what happens for 10 or 15% of us is that we want more and more of that. And that became the pattern for me. And so again, I had some rage underneath. I started finding trouble, just looking for a place to happen. I was stealing beer from convenience stores. I was doing other things that I won't share here, but violence and carrying things I didn't need to have with me, and being in places I certainly didn't need to be with people I never needed to be around. And so I I don't glory daze all of that, but been there, done enough of that, you know. But really what was going on, Joe, is that you know, it was that alcohol had really been a big part of making me okay for a while, for maybe a couple of years. And then I found cannabis and some other drugs, some other substances. But it was I smoked a lot of weed, used a lot of cannabis. Back in the day, it wasn't like it is now, you know. Yeah. You were choking on seeds and stems half the time. Yeah. And then if you could find somebody that knew somebody, which I did in the end, yeah, I could usually get stuff that was comparable to today, but not back then. So that was 25 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

But um those those would help a little bit. But what I started to realize is it's

First Real Drunk And Relief

SPEAKER_03 15:05

not helping as much. So by the time I was about 20 or so, I'd had some challenges in life. I I was in a relationship that was going well, but I was still just like severely depressed. And I was prescribed some sleeping pills, some barbiturates. And I remember I was in a dorm room at this time on a college campus. So I was in college trying to hang in there, and all my grades were falling away. It was, you know, I was losing my grip. And I remember staring at myself in the mirror of the dorms. And people were on vacation, and I was there, you know, by myself mostly at this dorm, and looked at myself in the mirror of the guy's bathroom and said, Yep, I'm I'm done with this life thing. And I took the whole bottle, swallowed them, and went and laid back down. And then as I remember it, my body woke me up, you know, and you could say, Whatever that is, God nudged me. My biology said, Hey, you're gonna die. Both are true, sure. But something got me up out of the bed. And my girlfriend, who became my fiance, who became my wife, who's still my wife, miraculously, was in the dorm one dorm over, and we were dating in the, you know, and and I just walked over there and I didn't say anything about what I'd done. I was just going over there. She had a friend in the room. I don't remember a lot of what happened next, but they must have called the, you know, an ambulance. And I remember being carted down the stairs of a major university into the back of an ambulance to an ER and swallowing charcoal, drinking charcoal solution, which is I'd never done that. And just realizing that this, my suicide attempt, it didn't work. And it was, you know, it was rough because I I wanted to leave and it didn't work. So there's a lot to my story, and I don't want to just plow through it, but um, that's that's a lot like up to one phase of, you know, that involved a lot of mental health challenges, and then where alcohol and other substances really worked until they didn't. And this is where it started getting like this was it was all downhill from here, right? For the next nine years for sure.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

And you just made a good point that it works until it doesn't, right? And that's so important for people that are listening because that's I think a lot of people go through that, right? They start using, it's masking, it's working. You're thinking this is great, this is perfect. My life is, oh my gosh, I can accomplish anything for about 10 minutes, and then it works until it doesn't, right? And then it's a whole nother challenge. I mean, it just keeps getting bigger each time. It's like a snowball that gets bigger and bigger and bigger. So I know you're going to kind of elaborate on that in the next part of your story. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:57

Absolutely. No, that's that's it, Jill. And why I like to, you know, just hover here for a minute on it works is because otherwise, why would we do it? And and it's taken me some years to come to that conclusion. And then the research is out there, and I've been in the field a while, and I've talked to so I've worked with so many countless families, and moms and dads are like, I they're not getting it, or maybe your coaching will help. Oh, maybe I'm willing to talk. But here's what's going on, you know, and then understanding the nature of addiction, you know, whether it's a spiritual malady or a brain disease or a disorder or a biopsychosocial condition, a medical illness. Those of us that have been around this field a while, we know all of those terms are used. Well, which one is it? We don't know. We really don't know. We know what we know about it, and we're we're still trying to figure it out, you know. But certainly there's something that's different about those of us that seem to have this affliction. And

Suicide Attempt And Psych Ward

SPEAKER_03 18:55

I have it. Yeah, I still have it today. Absolutely. And so after that point, you know, the suicide attempt didn't work. And so I remember my grandpa rushing in and saying, My family name is Charlie. Charlie, oh my gosh, why did you do this? Please just never do this again. He was so worried. And so for those that have survived an attempt on your own life and it didn't work out, you know how gut-wrenching that is. Because I'm like, oh, not only did I'm in this weird place swallowing whatever charcoal, and I don't want to be alive. And now here's my family saying, Why did you do this? So it's just shame and guilt, and on top of desperation, and I'm paralyzed from the pills that are in my system.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

So that was a that was one of the lows that I had for sure. From there, I went straight into a psychiatric institution for two weeks. And so no shoelaces, no razor blades, no contact with people voluntarily, voluntarily went in. There may have been a choice. I don't remember that part, but I know that that's where I went next, and that seemed to be the choice. Maybe they asked me if I was gonna live if I if I didn't, and I probably said no. I I had no desire to continue.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

Yeah, still, still, even though the attempted still okay.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

Yeah, yeah, I'll get this right next time, kind of thinking. Those of us that are serious about it, you know, and I was. So I did go to uh I think it was called Willow View, and Dr. Tony Moon was there. Dr. Moon, if you hear this, please. I've been trying to reach him for years. I always say his name. Tony Moon, he sat me down real, like similar temperament to mine, and he was one of the counselors on staff. He was like, Hey, Charles. He came over to me during one of these down times. We have nothing to do. He's like, um, so I I was reading some of your answers to your forms, and I noticed that you said that you, you know, would drink alcohol a couple of times a week. And I was like, Yeah, that was my answer, which was absolute lie, you know, because it's denial. It's one of the conditions of alcoholism and addiction. We're guarding our addiction, and that's what it does to keep us protected so we can keep drinking and using. And so I'm like, no, yeah, a couple of times a week. And he's like, okay, well, would you like to take a walk around the trail, around the pond, and maybe talk more about that? And I looked at him and I said, No, I don't think so. And I look back at myself, I'm like, Joe, I'm like, that was that was one of my chances to get sober. Blew it. When they say we're not ready, I don't know if it's true or not anymore. I've lived a lot, you know, more years. I'm like, maybe I could have been ready and just didn't know what this was about. And so unfortunately, I did not take him up on his offer and only shared, excuse me, what felt safe. And so that's a big, big part. Yeah, right. Very important. And so I guess if there's a stop to here in this point, it's that they say in the rooms alcohol, alcoholism, addiction is cunning, baffling, and powerful. Right. And that's what they end up. understood a hundred years ago. And it still is. But there's also some sense to it. Like I was not able to really understand enough about what was going on to me and through me to be able to even begin to verbalize that then. So if there are parents or loved ones or spouses or partners that are listening in, it can be so, so heartrending to see your loved one struggle and they're just not getting it. And unfortunately, those are some of the phases of addiction itself. I mean that that those are conditions. Those are symptoms of addiction. And until we can find a way through those in a healthy way and get to the core of what's actually going on, it's very, very hard and without additional consequences that are really hard for us to want to change. It's not that I didn't want to do something different. I didn't want to be alcoholic. I didn't want to be suicidal. That was never in the cards. I wanted to be a baseball player. You know I wanted to study science and be a baseball player. That that was my ambition. It was not going well at age 20. That was not the plan. So and I'll stop there. Like you know do you have any thoughts or questions there, Joe?

SPEAKER_01 23:14

I I really um I love this, Charles, because a lot of times and and if you've listened to any of my episodes or if anybody's listened, a lot of us struggled real early in life, right? Real early maybe had some big trauma events that had happened or maybe didn't have a family that was loving and caring or things like that. For you to share that you came from a good background, loving family, hearing people, a good community you know you felt safe as a child, it still happens, right? Addiction still happens. It happens to everyone and sometimes I think that is so hard for people to understand. It happens it it does not discriminate. It just does not and and what that looks like maybe our brains are wired different. Like you said we haven't exactly put the pen in it yet. It can be a lot of different things right we know the neuroplasticity we know that our brain can learn and relearn unlearned behaviors, relearn behaviors. We know that it takes time. Those are facts right but in comparison to we can't compare trauma trauma's trauma but in comparison for for growing up addiction gets us all and that's the the part here that I want people to really hear. I want that to be something that because that makes us all the same. It makes us all connected you know I always say connection is the opposite of addiction and we're all in this together because we truly are we have to figure these things out together. So thank you for sharing all of that.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

Absolutely and I love what you said there, Joe. I believe that firmly you know I've had a lot of time to get to know myself and and it's one of the ways that my personality is wired anyway to reflect inwardly and figure out who and what I am and then do that with others. And you know to understand that I have gifts and strengths

Denial And What Addiction Is

SPEAKER_03 25:10

and abilities and all of that that are unique to me is really important. That's part of the journey that's part of this life thing that all human beings need to know. It's part of self-esteem or self-efficacy and and just acceptance and self-love and just knowing that you matter and there was a point in my life that I'm like I don't I don't care I don't want to matter you know that this is that's not the the point anymore. And I had been that way for a while. And you know and so after that attempt on my own life I took time off from school and did other things because it was very disruptive you know to come through that. And I was in individual therapy but I was still with alcohol and smoking a lot of weed um and drinking more and more and still in this relationship which was very loving and supporting and with all the love in my heart for my spouse she gives me permission to say which also was codependent and involved enabling. So this is because the short uh the shortest story on this is for those that don't know what enabling is it's it's really covering for someone that you love out of love to help them with the problem that you really can't fix.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

You just do what you think you can to help, right? That's it. But you keep doing that and you keep doing that and you keep doing that over and over and over and you make that problem your own and it can be very very that codependency can be very daunting making those problems your own because it's something that you do in in your life throughout your life if you don't know that that's a behavior that you have. There's a lot more to it obviously but that is one of the things that really does happen over and over again. So bless your wife because she's still with you. She's still with you.

SPEAKER_03 26:57

She is and the reason I share that is I have permission to share that part of her story from her. And because we both learned about it. You know at this point in my story I had not neither one of us knew what was going on. Addiction wasn't spoken of openly nobody knew we found out since it runs on both sides of our family. So you did not know that at the time you did not know that growing up at all it was not there there was an uncle who who really struggled but it wasn't it wasn't understood and it was like alcoholism was not the word treatment was never a word recovery was not language but it was everywhere. And so it was literally the elephant in the room you know and I'm like oh my gosh as an adult I'm like that's causing all the problems in the family you know right and so you know I have a lot of um veterans in my family have been through you know from God the Spanish American War all the way up through um World War II and Korea Vietnam so my dad and an uncle are in Vietnam their dad was in uh Korea in World War II E9 Marine you know so there's a lot of service and a lot of trauma and a lot of alcohol absolutely a lot of substances to get through that a lot of substances so that's just part of the story you know but so what my wife was really doing with all the best intentions in the world was trying to help and she was helpful until it became not helpful. Like so where I remember I was fully employed so I'll skip part of my story but I I did graduate college and I was fully employed somewhere in forestry working with trees. And I remember not being able to go into work one day right so sick just throwing up from my toes as they say and I said I'm not gonna be able to make it she said well you need to call in I said I can't do it I'm not not gonna do it right part of me was still just giving up right just whatever you know just letting life happen. And she said okay I'll call just this time you know and then she called one or two other times and there were other behaviors on she would buy the alcohol I would drink it you know then it'd be gone in that same day and she'd be like where did it go? You know and I drank it all. And so all of that was in our relationship too. And we really loved each other. I mean that was really pure like I came from that kind of background where that's possible with a lot of dysfunction also it's all mixed together. So but we had a good thing and there was this other this third thing going on this alcoholism and this mental health. And so that went on for several more years. We ended up getting married and I had a career and she started her career. She graduated in four years and started teaching music and I went back to school I'm telling some of this out of order got my degree in forestry and then and then started my forestry job. I was still drinking through all this heavily we had our first child I was miraculously sober for that day I I still don't know I give credit to God for that it was I could be drunk at any point honestly during this you know that was in my 20 my mid-20s and then we had our second daughter miraculously sober again I still look back and I'm like I have no idea how that happened. And I'm so really thankful for that but really struggled. And you know I came to a point in my career where I had access to human resources and insurance and I just remember I've got it I've got to do something different. I know alcohol is a problem I'm not sure what to do about it. And I've tried AA and I've tried psychologists and I've know I've been to institutions and I've gone to the hospital when my organs are swollen and my liver's too big and been there done that. You know I've walked the streets I've been so drunk just like forget it and just walked out and somehow didn't end up in jail you know until one night I did end up in jail. It wasn't prison but I had absolutely just blacked out and was just a mess and tried to drive our car home and my wife drove and I broke the inside of the windshield

Marriage Love And Enabling Patterns

SPEAKER_03 31:10

from the inside and smashed it and got out and started to walk and and we were we were on some highway and there were like highway patrol saying my name and telling me to stop and reaching for their pistols and I'm like saying you know whatever to them and my wife is is screaming for me to stop. It was done. I'm like I was gonna I was gonna get taken down and so I have many other stories similar to that one.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

And and so I've been through those things too and we've been through those things as a company Yeah that's a rough place to be not only for you but for for I won't say her name but for your wife. That's a rough place to be for her um watching that and feeling helpless you really feel helpless. Right and that's really tough in a relationship with someone that you love. And if you're a parent or a loved one or a spouse or a partner no minimizing that it's a very tough place to be watching someone you love an addiction. It becomes a sickness of your own as well.

SPEAKER_03 32:09

So sorry that she had to go through that but I'm glad that the two of you came through that you know yeah absolutely and respect to you on that Joe and anyone listening absolutely why I have permission to tell her stories because I'm like I want to if you'll let me because what ended up happening in our remaining time I kind of want to cut to the chase and talk about all the good stuff. But if anybody can identify with aspects of those that we've talked about in their own story, cool there might be a way forward for you that maybe you didn't see or you can relate to something else. Hopefully that's helpful. But what I we learned is that there's this thing called Al Anon that my wife found and she found that there's a 12 step program for loved ones, friends and family of those like me that struggle with alcoholism and addiction that does not help them to solve addiction for their loved one. It helps them learn how to detach and live a different life than the one they've been living that's been so enmeshed and so joined with the addiction itself of their loved one. And she started learning how to do that. And I was trying I was going to AAA I'd gone to my employer I forgot about that part of my story and went and said I need help and I was crying my eyes out to our HR I'd never asked for that kind of help in that way. Went to Valley Hope and Cushing shout out great program. I felt so good coming came back home 28 days later was going to again therapy was drunk in two weeks it wasn't sticking. I bounced around that year uh and tried and I would get a couple of weeks and I was really trying I had not you know two weeks was a long time in 16 years three months was the longest I had and that was years before my addiction was so strong uh so advanced and so it was just holding on for dear life to to stay sober a day or two and then just getting a few of those together and being like I can't take it anymore and I'd end up at the liquor store. And and so my wife had been going to these Al Anon meetings with two young babies like online like dial up modem online back in the day chat room. Yeah gosh my is a badass. Yeah good absolutely and so she was learning how to apply these principles and I was doing what I was doing trying my best but not having much success she was starting to learn another way to live and what happened was things like this. I came home from after work and I was I couldn't wait to get home anymore. It was just I I'm going straight to the liquor store when I'm gonna drink it's a pint on the way home down the hatch in 10 minutes, you know, and I'm coming home like half rocked bringing that bringing that shit home pardon my language right yeah absolutely yeah which is not okay. And so hey if you're drinking and using don't bring the shit home anymore. Cut it out people if you're it's not okay with your loved one. You know do something else because that hurts them whether you physically do anything or not and so I came home one night and I was half conscious and she said did you make it that was the question of the night every night Joe did you make it this is a woman who truly loved me and she still does and she was hopeful with these little ones and I was too it was breaking my soul in half and I said yeah but I might need to go get a six pack and it was just a wave of whiskey in the air right and it was break I was felt so bad genuinely and it's that guilt and shame and that everything all of it just that cycle every single day and you know what you're bringing home and you know she loves you and you know you love her and you're trying and it's your kid it's just difficult.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

It's so difficult.

SPEAKER_03 35:45

It is and she said and she said okay and then she moved her body to let me through into the house and then she went into another room and it was kind. It wasn't there was no like what the hell is going on or I can't believe you're lying to me. I checked the purchases on our on our mid first bank account I know you spent the exact same amount of money on that pint of whiskey which she did but she didn't tell me all that she went in to the other room and I proceeded to end up I think under the coffee table that night uh slept on the living room floor. And she went to an Al An meeting online and she was practicing these things and it was it was like doing it was doing something to me that I didn't understand. And so a time later she had uh been practicing more and more and what my wife did listeners if you're listening she developed an exit plan she developed a safety plan with her support network if like if things got too bad that she could count on them. I didn't know anything about this. And there's one night that I came home after trying and trying and trying and drank almost I don't know how much a liter of vodka ridiculous amount of stupid alcohol and came home just absolutely insane. And I was taking 300 milligrams of some antidepressant at the same time so it's like psychotic you know proportions. Which I'd experienced psychosis several times. Yeah um with you know from antidepressants and a lot of alcohol that's another story that's not important it's a whole other level I've done done that many times and and so what's most important is that my wife took action because I went into a read out blackout which is I don't remember and I I did not hit anyone but I was a terror and scary and it still hurts me today. It's one of the memories I want to keep I'm not ashamed of it but it hurts me. I feel guilty about it still I feel remorseful and I'm okay with that.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

That's a good thing honestly that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

It is a good thing. That's okay yeah it should be there. Yeah and it's not who I am yeah but it's what I did and part of who I was yes it's not shame it's called it's remorse it's called love. That's what love sounds like yeah because I still feel it but it does not it's not my core emotion when I share the story anymore and I refuse to allow it to be that's compassion that led me to love. Yeah so I yeah smashed up walls and did lots of scary stuff. I didn't know I went and passed out the police came in I I was on the bed somehow they came in with flashlights Charles you in here and it hurt you you know might have had too much to drink and I was like huh? And they said okay you're gonna sleep it off and I said yeah and they said okay well sleep it off wrong move law enforcement please do your job bring people in like that I needed to be in jail that night for what I'd done to the house and scared my family. And um because when I got up I was looking for trouble and I remember that I don't remember what

Al Anon Boundaries And Separation

SPEAKER_03 38:55

all I was going to do but it was not going to be a good night. And that's how people end up in the papers and end up in long-term incarceration thinking what happened it happens all the time and that was going to happen that night no doubt about it. And so I've told my children that you know as they've gotten old enough at my 20 year anniversary I told that story in front of my parents in front of my wife in a way that was healthy. Yeah yeah yeah that they need to know and so from there Joe all this minutes later right 45 50 minutes later into the story what really happened was we had been trying I had been looking for a different solution other than alcohol I didn't want to live this kind of life yeah yeah it came to this point where all of a sudden my wife was gone from the house the next day and the girls were gone less than three and less than one year old. Everybody's gone and it's just me and I call and call no answer. And so I I I call Valley Hope and I'm like I call and I'm like can you take me I don't know where else to go and so I go back to Valley Hope exactly one year later. And so treatment for the second time this time was different. This time my wife had set boundaries for her own safety first and foremost and for her own sanity second and then for the future of her family with our daughters that may or may not include me. That was the hardest decision she ever made and if she was on this podcast she would tell you so I'm telling you for her that's why I had permission to share her story because my wife Christy found recovery truly before I did. Yeah absolutely and she figured this out like what wasn't working and how to try to live healthy in a way that might be very painful but it could not work the way it was going I was I was uncontrolled and she knew it. And so from there things started to change in a really positive way it was extraordinarily difficult. So I went to treatment about halfway through I thought I think I might actually be getting it this time but I'm like I don't even trust myself anymore. I don't know. So at the end of the 28 30 days I call my wife and said okay so I'm ready to come home and she said I'm not ready. I'm not ready for you. I love you and I'm not ready. I still need to work on me and just make sure that things are okay here. I didn't understand that she had boundaries and was working and I'm like I felt like what the fuck yeah what is going on here all of a sudden she's not she's not trying to control your issue. You got it and that's what it looked like in her like this is a very loving strong human being obviously both strong human beings right just alcoholism is way stronger um so than both of us together but she figured out a path that would help right her and that she needed more time to figure out and see honestly if this was going to take she didn't tell me that but she needed to see proof yeah of course fair it's right very fair yeah so lots of respect to all of the loved ones that are setting those types of boundaries where that's appropriate and right for you because we need them. I needed that and I didn't know I really it may have worked out it may not have you know from past experience I could get two weeks and then I alcoholism is progressive it gets worse if you keep drinking it just gets worse and even if you don't research shows it keeps getting worse in your body biologically even without alcohol you just so all of that and then so my choices were I found a sober living in Ponka City that doesn't exist anymore located affectionately in an area known as Cracktown Ponka City. So those of you that lived a little bit of that street life running it was off Oak Street in Maine and you're like oh yeah uh-huh they have people out all the time but there was a a past counselor who um from Valley Hope who went out on his own and opened a sober living house. So yeah no drug testing but I wasn't drinking there was all kinds of drugs other people were doing but they weren't openly doing them and and that was working for me you know and and so like a few weeks in I called my employer who I have you know responsibly let know in 20 seconds or left I'm an alcoholic I'm going to treatment that was my reporting the whole time for some reason they didn't they didn't want me when I got back and so I was within this real long probationary period it was a state employment position and they called me on a Friday and said Charles we're not going to need you to come in on Monday. You can just leave your keys there I was in a forestry position over 11 counties lost I didn't know what I was doing anyway but I was so mad and so upset. And I was separated from my wife and my children I had missed my daughter's first birthday at my wife's request insistence at her boundary. She's not not ready for me to integrate with the family.

unknown 43:59

I'm like

SPEAKER_03 44:00

This so this is sobriety. Wow, this is great.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

This is this is exactly where I thought you were gonna get. This is the the part right now where you victim blame, right? Here's here we go. Right. Why am I doing this? Why? Why am I doing the silver thing?

SPEAKER_03 44:16

Right. Yeah, and I was so and so, but I knew that it was better. I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm just like, but what is this life gonna look like? This is not a version of life I ever would imagine. I can't drink, which I can't believe that came out of my mouth at that time. Well, I can't drink, so that somehow lodged in my brain. I'm like, well, that's not gonna work, it's not gonna solve that feeling, it's gonna make it worse. So I'd heard, you know, words from alcoholics like, well, you know, nothing changes unless something changes. You know, it doesn't get better, it gets worse, or all these, you know, Jedi moves from AA old timers. Yeah, you know, I never hurt

Treatment Again Then Sober Living

SPEAKER_03 44:55

anybody but me, and somebody called that lie out one time. And I said, Well, I don't know about you. I hurt everybody when I drank. Yeah, I had to do the fourth step and figure that out. I'm like, Well, these are all the people that didn't do the fourth step. Well, I was just hurting myself. So I I learned from really good AA sponsorship and grand sponsors, and I, you know, I had plenty of time to go to meetings because I was out of a career job and 80 pounds overweight and smoking two packs of cigarettes a day, separated from from my family in cracktown Ponka City. Much love to Ponca City, by the way. But going to Harmony House, which had great AA back in the day. And I had a sponsor and a grand sponsor, and I went to upstairs to the big book study with Keith S. And I thought, I've never heard it taught like this. And it started making sense. And so treatment and all the therapy and the hospitals and the jail and the wife leaving, which still didn't quite make sense yet. But most of it was starting to make sense. And I'm like, oh my God, this is really hard. No wonder. No wonder this kills people.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

Yeah, this is this is harder than I thought. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

Intellectually self-sufficient. I could not figure it out. I had to live through it and do the things long enough without alcohol in my system to see, like, oh, I can cope with life now. Okay. Alcohol can't do it. I need enough time away from it and a lot of other help to be able to cope with it. And then transformation started to happen. So at three months in, still separated from the family, mowing lawns with somebody from the sober living house who had relapsed and was mainlining cocaine again. And, you know, so yeah, I was out of that job too. You know, going to three meetings a day because they were in walking distance. I remember after a meeting one day that a person, I don't remember her name, God bless her, I'd been sharing and about the steps, about the program, which is the steps. You know, that's all you're supposed to do, Charles. Work the steps and share about it. I don't, you know, how are your days going? Sure. Make sure it includes what you're doing in the program. That's the fellowship, that's what it's for. So really good sponsorship. And I started doing that, and I'm like, okay, here's what I did, and blah, blah, blah. And evidently I was looking happy and sounding happy for some weird reason.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

And that's new, right?

SPEAKER_03 47:09

That's new. Yeah, there's probably 25, and it's like, hey, Charles, on my way out. I'm like, well, I'm gonna go back to the fucking house now and you know, go to bed and go sleep with in Cracktown for another whoever knows how long. And she said, Um, Charles, I said, Yeah, how's it how's it going? I saying okay, or whatever. She said, You sound like you're happy. And it like, I tell people this all the time. It took me back. I was so shocked to hear that. I hadn't felt happy since I was nine. I had moments of it, but I'm like real, like undiluted, yeah, happy.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Other people see it, or other people are even saying, Wow, right?

SPEAKER_03 47:50

Yeah, well, I couldn't trust myself. So I'm like, well, maybe she's right. So I was taking my inventory and talking to my sponsor, and then maybe you are. So I don't want to run our time just on and on, Joe, but that's where the change really started to happen. And it happened in the most unexpected, least likely set of circumstances I could possibly imagine for my life. What a lot of people see me today, and I tell this part, there's other parts too that I mean, I'm I have some gang involvement. I have, you know, trouble. There's trouble in some of my past. I just didn't go to the places where people that have done trouble, you know, go to.

SPEAKER_02 48:24

Yeah. Yeah. I've never killed anyone. The opportunity's been there. Yeah, you didn't get it right.

SPEAKER_03 48:31

I work very well with people that have been justice involved, right? Because that mindset been there. I've worked with lots and lots of people that have served time and that are trying to reintegrate and figure this life thing out. And I and I love it. It's one of my favorite things to do.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

That's what I do also, Charles. That's what I do as well. Yeah. Yeah. Where my heart is as well, is reintegration. It's re-entry, yes, but more like reintegration into life, right? Not just re-entry, but just learning how to reintegrate yourself into life again. Um, from from a soul level, you know what I mean? From a safe soul level.

SPEAKER_03 49:08

That's it. It's that part. It's not just what the justice system and society says about, you know, coming back into society and doing right. It's like having an identity that feels that it belongs in the society and having spaces made available where you can earn a living wage and have people like you around you that are trying to walk that walk. And so I've been involved in the uh diversion programs and treatment court programs. And I'm like, people that want it. I mean, you couldn't pay me um to for some of this work, right? I'm just I love it so much just to see the light go on for folks that have served hard time and they're turning it around. And for some reason, I've been lucky, blessed, and graced. All three words are true.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

You found your purpose, and part of that purpose is to be able to give back and help other people through it, right? And the fact that you didn't, because you'll hear people say this over and over. The very first time I got in trouble, the very first time I got busted, I went to jail, then it just seemed to keep happening over and over and over and over, right? It just like there's this, I don't know what it is, it's on your forehead, right? All of a sudden, it just happens again and again and again. And now you're in four different counties and you have trouble, right? When when you hadn't been in trouble your whole life, and then now all of a sudden it's just one after the other. You were very fortunate that that didn't, it could have happened at any moment. You were fortunate that it didn't happen, and there's got to be a reason for that, right?

SPEAKER_03 50:33

I feel like I believe that. Yeah, I believe that. I believe, but I also believe that you know, there's causes and conditions that I don't

AA Sponsorship And Feeling Happy

SPEAKER_03 50:40

know about. I'm a person of faith, you know. So absolutely I believe I believe God is in all of it, and you know, but God is in everything. And some people that are that are all in to God, terrible things have happened to, right? I've been deeply involved. Absolutely. So, so it's it's a little of all of those things. And what's most important is that I receive it as a gift, and then I'm grateful as a result. I oh, I've been given this opportunity that I don't think is crap, you know, that I don't think, well, I guess I'll just deal with life the best I can now, because some level of psychological and spiritual change happened into me in this series of them of events over a period of two years. I'm like, this is who I am. I think I kind of knew this when I was eight.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

Right. You lost yourself. You absolutely lost yourself.

SPEAKER_03 51:33

You lost your I was gone. I was gone because I was so angry, adverse childhood experience, six out of ten, a score. So, you know, a lot of my story I won't share on on podcasts, but I've gotten a lot of trauma, you know, from early childhood and and it's real. And so hypervigilance and you know, trying to just keep people away and attack first, you know, and all those things, and surround yourself with people that are on the same wavelength, you know, and invite them in. And I'm like, I really misused that superpower, but today I get to use those same abilities to connect with people for a greater good because I could have gone boy, I could have gone some places and I I don't need to wander. It's not ego. I know no, I definitely could have, you know.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 52:18

Very thankful for for where this has ended up. Yeah, being able to, as we kind of cut to it, you know, I will say, Joe, just being able to share this conversation between you and I.

SPEAKER_00 52:29

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 52:30

That's a gift, right? And hopefully our listeners benefit. I know it's been good for me. And to be able to serve other people, I've been coaching now as a professional certified coach with my own business for 12 years. And I went out reluctantly and found this thing called life coaching and got trained and learned how to do it, and learned about ethics and competencies, and got a mentor coach and launched my business. I didn't know what I was doing, and did that and made enough money with my wife's blessing who makes a public school teacher's wage. So there's our story of I'm an idealistic person who wants to help others and just shoot straight, right? I don't have a like an ulterior motive that's very strong. Maybe a little bit, but not much. And so recently, and then to come on board where I'm at now with is Pathways Recovery Centers and to be able to join forces there for a greater good and to craft a new role together with leadership that hasn't existed in the organization. So I'm really helping to enhance and learn about the culture of the workplace across all five of our facilities in three different states and work with our employees to empower and strengthen them so that they feel more belonging and more place at work. And a lot of them are folks like us that have been through it, and they're on a new growth path, and it's so rewarding to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

To be able to bring you in to strengthen that culture because working in recovery is not easy. You're working in recovery, you're in recovery, it's recovery all day long, right? And and most of us, not I won't say most, a lot of us are in empaths, and and it all it all gets in there, right? And so what a blessing for you and them, really.

SPEAKER_03 54:18

Um I'm very fortunate for that. And then in life, you know, I have two young adult daughters now that are 23 and 21. And as far as we know, I don't know if substances are involved, but it has not shown itself. It could, it's very likely going to be involved in their lives, if not them, then people they care about. And so recovery is spoken here. So one of the commitments we made years ago, maybe as I wrap on this, Joe, is that when I was welcomed back home after five or six months in that sober living, and my wife said, I'm ready now. This is how I like to close, you know, with her giving me permission, she was ready. And me saying, Okay, I am too, and coming back in. And I'm like, what I'd really like us to do is to talk every night and to understand what's most important to each one of us and to try to live that out in ways that make sense to both of us. And then I never want to cause you harm again for the rest of our lives together. And if I do, I want to know about it. And I say that with emotion. I have emotion right now when I say it.

SPEAKER_01 55:19

I do too. I'm I'm picturing that. I can feel that moment. I can feel how that because I mean it.

SPEAKER_03 55:25

I mean it every day. And I have my bad days. Don't get me wrong. I'm not always, you know, yeah, I'm big, I'm we live our lives together too. Yeah, but I guarantee you, you know, I've treated my wife well. My daughters know that I love them, they know my journey, and my journey isn't my identity. I'm dad, you know, who who has come through alcoholism. I'm I'm Charles, husband to my wife, who has alcoholism and is in recovery. And a lot of people don't even know that I'm in recovery because I don't feel the need to tell everybody, you know. But I love to on our show because my identity is not solely a person in recovery. I'm this person, you know? And that's where the magic. No, the past doesn't. And it never really could. But when you have that breakthrough internally, like I am, I am alcoholic. I have the condition of alcoholism. If I don't put alcohol into my system, it's not activated. And as long as I do a few simple things to stay mostly balanced and mostly grateful, even when life's really hard, I'm gonna be okay. Yeah, other things will happen, yeah, but they won't.

SPEAKER_01 56:30

And and let's be real about that. Life can be hard, right? Yeah, life can be hard, sober, not sober in recovery, not in recovery. Life, I my little term way to say it is life be life, and right? No matter what, yeah, that's a fact, right? And and bad things happen to good people, good things happen to bad people. These are just facts, and finding a way to cope is what really has to happen.

SPEAKER_03 56:53

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

Because life is

Purpose Work Reintegration And Family Healing

SPEAKER_01 56:55

going to be life, right?

SPEAKER_03 56:56

And yes, it does. It does do that.

SPEAKER_01 56:59

It does do that. It happens. But your your demeanor today, I did not know you then, right? But for someone to meet you today, those things are not apparent, right? Because you've worked through, you've worked through a lot of trauma. You've worked through a lot of issues, you've worked through a lot of childhood trauma. We have to work through those things. You can't just, you know, body keeps the score. I'm sure you've seen the book, read the book, heard about the book. Is very true, right? If we don't deal with it, we don't feel it to heal it, it's gonna stick in there. And so we've got to work through it. And finding ways to work through it is exactly why I want to do this season three of the podcast because you have shared tremendously about the things that you have gone through and the things that have helped you along the way. Like what helped you? Yes, AA helped you. Yes, getting a sponsor helped you. Yes, going to sober living helped you, going to treatment helped you. Is that going to be the path for every single person? No. But we got to find our path. We have to find our path and what is going to help us. And and your wife has been a tremendous blessing in your life. Um, and I'm so glad that you had that experience. And I'm so glad she had that experience because what a tremendous gift to learn about enabling, not in the best way, but learning how that can how that can affect your lives, especially in in loved ones and married couples, families, just enabling your children, enabling your spouse, how that can have an adverse effect.

SPEAKER_03 58:30

Absolutely, Joe. And and that those dynamics run on both sides of our family. And so to be able to be a couple that's also two individuals that have those those understandings and that lived experience. I won't go into other people's stories, but it's been beneficial multiple times to family members. And and yeah, there's a lot more sobriety. Um, and it's not just because of us, but it's partially due to our influence and partially due to our support and discussion and sharing openly where it seems safe and appropriate, you know, our stories. Yeah. And it's it's incredible. The I guess if I have one last thing to say, Joe, it'd be like I asked my wife, I've stopped asking her this, right? Because this would be out of like guilt. I said, God, you know, and when whenever alcoholism comes up, because it doesn't come up every day, you know, except for when I talk about work, you know, because I'm not drunk all the time and try to figure it out. We're trying to be free and like even more free and more together and more in love, you know, like some days are better than others, but we're pretty good at that. Yeah. And so that's the journey I was looking for the whole time. And so I say, um, I've said to her, I can't remember how many years ago the last time I said it was is like, ah, you know, if I had the choice, I would never want to have alcoholism again, you know, if I could do life over. And she said, she said, you know what, I wouldn't change it. And she means it with all the sweetness in her heart. I bet she does. I bet she does. She does. I'm not, I'm not quite there because of how brutal that was on the inside and and and the outside, but I mean, really, just that inner inside, yeah. So many years of just hanging on. If we could understand that better, I would love to help people, you know, figure out a way out of that. I don't care what the path is, it doesn't matter to me because of the depth that I've experienced that pain. It doesn't matter to me. AA 12-step spirituality, something else, sure. Yeah, keep searching, you know, because you know, you might find something that works. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:34

Absolutely. I appreciate that so much. I really appreciate you coming on tonight and having this conversation. Very powerful, very powerful and very hopeful. Um, and that's what we need, right? We need hope. We definitely need help. And it is out there, it is definitely out there and it is available. And uh I know, are you still doing your coaching business actively?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:54

I am. Yes, I'm seeing a small number of individual coaching clients. I give talks as well through my business. So fullintegration coaching.com. You can find me there.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

Perfect. Um,

Hope Closing And How To Connect

SPEAKER_01 1:01:05

and I will link that. If you will send me some links, or I can find the links, I will link that on the Facebook post as well so that everybody can see that. Um, and if you want to connect with Charles, you'll have a way to do that. Um, he's pretty fantastic. So thank you again for coming on here tonight. I really do appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:21

Thanks, Joe. Thanks for the opportunity and for the friendship.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

Absolutely, Charles.