The phrase psychological trauma can be roughly translated as “the wound of the soul”. Contemporary neuropsychology shows us that the wound is not metaphorical, as this poetic-sounding phrase might suggest, but rather a real one, detectable in the brain’s neural networks.
To understand what these wounds look like, how we acquire them, and what we can do about them, the Brain Health podcast team interviews a practitioner of eye movement desensitization and reprocessing therapy (EMDR), Isabel Fernandez. A cognitive-behavioral psychologist and a psychotherapist, Fernandez is trained in EMDR therapy and currently serves as the president of both EMDR Europe (a professional association of EMDR therapists) and its Italian branch (EMDR Italy). Besides discussing psychological trauma treatment, Fernandez also shares her rich knowledge of childhood trauma and trauma symptoms.
EMDR Europe was founded in 1999 with a mission to use EMDR treatment to help people suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and emotional trauma, as well as mental illness, to overcome their issues. Having started with a few hundred, the association is now 23 000 therapists strong, and has 31 national committees in Europe. Furthermore, they work with EMDR International Association and EMDR Research Foundation within EMDR Global Alliance, and promote the therapy in the Middle Eastern and African countries. They often provide psychological first aid where there is a high risk of trauma - refugee hotspots, and sites of terror attacks and tragic accidents.
Kim Baden-Kristensen is the co-founder and CEO of Brain+, a digital therapeutics company that helps people with brain disorders and injuries to recover their fundamental cognitive brain functions and daily life capabilities by using an app-based cognitive rehabilitation platform, which is developed in close collaboration with patients, clinicians and researchers.https://www.linkedin.com/in/kbadenk/
Alessia Covello is a life science IT consultant working in the field of healthcare technology implementation, and advocating for better services for people with brain conditions and learning disabilities.https://www.linkedin.com/in/alessiacovello/
Talking points include :
Disclaimer:
All references to products, companies, and organizations in this podcast and the article that accompanies it are included with the purpose to inform, rather than promote or advertise. The podcast authors do not receive financial compensation for any of these references.
The phrase psychological trauma can be roughly translated as “the wound of the soul”. Contemporary neuropsychology shows us that the wound is not metaphorical, as this poetic-sounding phrase might suggest, but rather a real one, detectable in the brain’s neural networks.
To understand what these wounds look like, how we acquire them, and what we can do about them, the Brain Health podcast team interviews a practitioner of eye movement desensitization and reprocessing therapy (EMDR), Isabel Fernandez. A cognitive-behavioral psychologist and a psychotherapist, Fernandez is trained in EMDR therapy and currently serves as the president of both EMDR Europe (a professional association of EMDR therapists) and its Italian branch (EMDR Italy). Besides discussing psychological trauma treatment, Fernandez also shares her rich knowledge of childhood trauma and trauma symptoms.
EMDR Europe was founded in 1999 with a mission to use EMDR treatment to help people suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and emotional trauma, as well as mental illness, to overcome their issues. Having started with a few hundred, the association is now 23 000 therapists strong, and has 31 national committees in Europe. Furthermore, they work with EMDR International Association and EMDR Research Foundation within EMDR Global Alliance, and promote the therapy in the Middle Eastern and African countries. They often provide psychological first aid where there is a high risk of trauma - refugee hotspots, and sites of terror attacks and tragic accidents.
Kim Baden-Kristensen is the co-founder and CEO of Brain+, a digital therapeutics company that helps people with brain disorders and injuries to recover their fundamental cognitive brain functions and daily life capabilities by using an app-based cognitive rehabilitation platform, which is developed in close collaboration with patients, clinicians and researchers.https://www.linkedin.com/in/kbadenk/
Alessia Covello is a life science IT consultant working in the field of healthcare technology implementation, and advocating for better services for people with brain conditions and learning disabilities.https://www.linkedin.com/in/alessiacovello/
Talking points include :
Disclaimer:
All references to products, companies, and organizations in this podcast and the article that accompanies it are included with the purpose to inform, rather than promote or advertise. The podcast authors do not receive financial compensation for any of these references.
People that were in Barcelona in the attacks, in the terroristic attacks, they started running and then they realize that there's two men were left behind and they went back to get. His first reaction was to run away and that's not because he was not a good father or a mother thing with our brain works like that, you know, first thing is to his survival.
Speaker 2:So hello everybody. Here's the brain health podcast. Here is a less Yeon Kim in the brain health podcast. Today we have a pisher guests and a with our guests. We will talk about a topic of a, of trauma, which is actually something we can experience in our lives or it's often happening to someone is near to us. We will talk about trauma. We will talk about therapies for trauma. We will go through, um, costume ball and the advices of behavior. Maybe we could have to help ourselves facing trauma or a where people near us. And then we will dig into Emdr, which is a special therapy that is a, that is used to help, for example, in mass emergencies. Um, so here I have to interview with me, Kim. Hello everybody. No, we have the pleasure to introduce our guest, Isabelle Fernandez. Hi Isabelle. So thanks for inviting me. It's a pleasure. And we are so glad and for the audience, uh, ease of it is currently sitting in, in Milan, uh, so you need to leave, but she travels a lot. And the reason why she chose a lot is because is a bill besides being a cognitive behavioral psychologist and a psychotherapist. She's a trained in Emdr therapy since 20 years ago, so eight years. She's the president of the Emdr you rope association, which is an association that covers churchie one countries and it's a and includes 25,000 clinicians, uh, able to do empty emdr therapy. And she's also president of the EMDR eatery association. She's also a researcher, so on the side she's done peer reviewed papers and did all the research, uh, related to her work. But, uh, maybe we would like to have ease of an introduction, introduce yourself and uh, the Tbi are today.
Speaker 1:Yes. And, uh, saw that, uh, we, the normal traditional therapy, we could not, we solve all the consequences are very stressful experiences. So I, I was, uh, um, many years ago that we're working with Emdr, so I just, I'm trying to understand what emdr therapy was and uh, I found out that he was sent to therapy and it was something that I could integrate very well in my, um, so I got trained and after being changed with all my plans and what was very exciting to see was that the, the um, the clients themselves while I was seeing them with working with, um, they were able to resolve themselves, um, well the consequences of trauma. So in a natural way because we have a natural healing resource and get the answer to it, have a process in stress and emotions and sensations and very negative experiences.
Speaker 2:I would like you to maybe define emdr
Speaker 1:when, when you work with Emdr therapy, I'm trying to identify what are experiences the client went through. They have the income to beauty and the, uh, the disorder or the difficulty that they are, that they are leaving right now. So we want to see them, their history. So, um, we want to know what were the most romantic experiences that they went through related to the problem. And this is something that the Dsm five and, uh, and are saying that psychological and mental disorders, so stressful events and traumatic events and you the, um, the experiences that first, then we translate that to memories. So then we work with Emdr we're working on which means I'm an example is someone saying my father was very violent at home than we want to, uh, translate that into memories before five main worries, that attitude and that experience and what we are working with a memory so the client can say something like, I remember at Christmas time when my father came and, and he was shouting and really violent and aggressive during the Christmas lunch. So everybody at the end were crying and was trying. And uh, we didn't celebrate Christmas anymore after that. So with that name, Lori and I must give the client what is the worst event. And she might say, what would the worst image is? Then I ask, what is your belief about yourself that I'm not a good draw, that I'm health less than a week, and then, uh, what other emotions and the sensations that you have right now and while he is concentrating them in all of these components and Laurie than we do stimulation that is like I'm moving da Da da. I have for a very brief period, like 30 seconds and this is a set of different sex until the imagine a face away or transform or discharge, remembering even good things about the family or whatever. And then he's got a heavy natural leaseplan changed, um, uh, emotions that are a more adaptive, uh, so he's not feeling anger or sadness when he's thinking of good memory, Sda and decision that his strength and he's telling himself I'm worth the independent of what he was doing to. So things like that. So it's not the clinician imposing or guiding the client that is allowing the brain and to mind to repair itself. And because the impact of traumatic memories very, very harmful for,
Speaker 3:we'd love to dig more into it. Maybe we should. Just very interesting concepts being introduced here by, by you, and I'd like maybe for the audience to get a better understanding of some of them. So maybe if we took a step back and just started by saying what, what is psychological trauma? What type of situations, uh, would, would lead to psychological trauma? How does care, what is characterized by
Speaker 1:psychological, psychological trauma? It's like a wound. We're talking about the sales, uh, about the personality and things like that. So I think a lot of trauma would be anything that one's sense of self and the sense of a venue that's a person can have and mostly a psychological trauma, something that is related to, um, stressful experience like an experienced extreme stress, like an accident or the last, it's a family member or, um, a earthquake or mass disasters like we have been leaving in the last a years, you know, that we can recall. So, um, this is a psychological trauma, something that really reactions to stress, reactions that are very. And we have two kinds of psychological trauma. Um, the, the, the, the experiences that I'm, I related to a sense of danger, like an accident and then experiences that are related to, uh, to relationships with people that is putting you down. Well, that as for, as like his space, we are very, very social. So we're all very vulnerable. No in a way that the others. So we have, we may have a lot of verbal, uh, aggression from someone for violence. We may have also no verbal violence or I do not make us feel that we're worth the, uh, so all of these small town, uh, like betrayals, separations, um, these are related to traumatic relationships within a, so shell and the relationship, the most typical trauma accidents or
Speaker 2:capital t trauma or sudden happenings that are extremely, extremely, uh, uh, emotionally involving a disasters or a violence or, uh, and then, uh, then less, uh, less trauma trauma. Um, and they say it's, and I can't believe I related to difficult situations and maybe they can have been over a long time periods,
Speaker 1:especially if. Yeah, because dependent on the behaviors, attachment, the cares of the adults, the adults are providing all of this that uh, uh, and there's some violence at the same time or um, there's no, there's a humiliation or there's some other kinds of thread than the child. So
Speaker 2:maybe we can, we can ask you what, what happens to the brain when person goes through a trauma and if there is a difference, uh, what happens to children when it goes through a trauma to his brain,
Speaker 1:really threats me, it comes from, from the outside. So what happens is that we have senses that, uh, the ones that are capturing the, the outside, and if this information is stressful, is negative. Someone that it, you know, he's really starting to, for instance, or to um, uh, we, we, we, we hear a very, very strong noyce or we start right away. Um, but we start with the stress reactions, the because we are wired like that. Anything that is not the media are not normal list information coming from the outside. The brain starts to it. It comes from the sense, from the perceptions, it goes to the tele, most it sounded, was starts organizing this information that comes from the outside and if it is not familiar in these, um, kind enough of a threat, then eat this information, goes to the Amygdala and right away, uh, in norther that starts with all this stress reactions that are, for instance, fight or flight is preparing them, preparing, run away a fight or in the case that I cannot site what's going on because I am helpless. Then there's other, other things like the paralysis, the reverse and freezes another stress reaction. We, uh, we all stay there without moving, without doing anything. And we are having stress reactions that way because allow me in order to survive. I mean, if someone is, um, by my throat, uh, you know, I cannot think of not runaway. So I stayed there in a way eventually. So this is another stress reaction. And the last one is the, uh, association, when we dissociate from your body, from what's going on. So this stress reactions that are for survival. So we are, um, many people, they said, oh, it didn't even understand why I realized that I was running or I was doing things, you know, because it's absolutely natural. For instance, I have some children, the fire or people that were in Barcelona in the attacks in the terroristic attacks, they started running and then they'll realize and they went back, um, reaction was to run away and that's not because he was not a good father or a good mother, but he was, works like that survival. So what happens is that we have a lot of success and we have the situation of one that is related. Uh, usually, yeah, because the cortisol has cells. So this function is says you have to remember this. Okay. So we are also wired in a way that we remember, um, more things, you know, and this is for, from, from our ancestors, you know, probably it was better for survival to remember that famous would say. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, so for the first part, understand that. Okay. In a stressful situation, uh, what happens to that, uh, the, the, the brain decoding the information that I kept stirring from the outside and then he sent information to the Amygdala and the Amygdala, try to understand what is doing the auction we should have and reaction could be okay, five the situation or escape the situation and if these two things cannot be done then it goes to a next step. That could be, I don't know, three's or instead of disconnect from yourself and then, and then, and then now I understand that after or maybe the traumatic moment, then there is something that needs to be fixed with the court is all and then it's there and maybe I, I'm not, I'm not understanding.
Speaker 1:I would like to add fractions of seconds. It doesn't take long and you, you don't have because we are in the presence of danger a little bit. The card decks then that would tell the person what to do. So the cortex comes in a second time that at the same time is extended memory. It's fixing the experience than the a traumatic memories stay very stable and fixed memory. Okay, in the neural networks. Okay.
Speaker 2:What is that needs to be fixed
Speaker 1:if they get fixed? I'm in the. They are a score. India neural networks in the same way they were. They were experienced. So what happens is I remember I keep remembering what
Speaker 3:longterm, stable, fixed, the longterm, stable, permanent almost.
Speaker 1:And what I'm trying to say is that we will remember those things, especially if they have other. So at that point, yeah, all the information regarding the experience, neural network kind of close and it is close with all the information. Neuro. The moment.
Speaker 3:Yeah,
Speaker 1:so it's not meant neurobiological neurophysiological. That's why emdr what, what's going on with the function that contains all of the traumatic experience and us what is the emotions, sensations, and then we start doing this kind of the a noodle networks opens and from next to other information and
Speaker 3:trauma, frozen memory that is stored directly in the structure of the brain networks and the emdr goes in and actually reactivates that neural network and makes it more make it unfreezes and so so to speak so that it becomes ready to adapt or be modified. And that's what the bilateral stimulation is all about.
Speaker 1:Okay. Not Rational. I, I start. Yeah. I'm driving again and time passes and I keep at some point this year gets structured and they have a phobia or I start to be controlling sweaty. They say, I know that I'm a good driver. That had happened only once in a. So do you dread years driving? I know this is irrational that I can't help it when that way when I get on that a start with all this reaction and they better avoid that. So I start avoiding getting cars. Cars I cannot change that they in at a cognitive level because that means the court, no way a daily with this verbally and at a cortical level that we have to do it. Uh, we have to work. And this same level experience happen. The what Emdr. Lillian is working on at all levels, not only at a cognitive level, emotional, a perceptional antibody level
Speaker 3:have to move their body in a specific way as well. Otherwise, what are some other things
Speaker 1:they just have to be concentrating on? The therapist is doing other kinds of like tapping on their hands.
Speaker 3:Okay. Thread back to your question earlier about children. You can verify this or not, but what is the difference between getting a trauma as a child? When you're a child, your brain is much more plastic and open to change, which means that you're much more impressionable and I'm guessing trauma, if they're severe enough, will be impressionable no matter what. Even to adults of course, but even for children, smaller things can actually turn into long lasting lifelong trauma because the brain is just so adaptable at that age.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We had the intuition. Now we know why it is so important to help the children. What's going on? What says that the children do not have? Um, yeah, structures of the brain mature or mature or develop yet. So, um, they cannot process somatic information. It's too much. They don't have the tools and the, um, structured to do that. So we have to really help the child process it. For instance, like come on either or a. He went through a very terrible situation. His family or a school that he's not talking about it. So, um, while we don't, if we see that the child doesn't, we've made that, he's fine with that and misinformation. The um, put that into words a very specific to what he went through so that the problem is that especially he has old brain is not stress reactions. So what we have to do now is to not give for granted. Children can process trauma normally even if the child keeps or behaving in a normal way, we really have to help him to process it. It has, it has to be the adult and the caregivers too.
Speaker 2:You mentioned that certain structures to process the trauma and that connects me to the question of what are the structures that we naturally have in our brain that help us to process the trauma and what are the nature of heating processes that our brain uses to process the trauma. If we haven't mentioned that already,
Speaker 1:he doesn't have a for instance, some areas like for instance, three, four years old, just like the hype is not. This is starting to develop at that point. So that's why we usually remember things, uh, from, from two to five years ago before that we cannot, we don't have the hype are yet. So we cannot talk, we cannot put into words or experiences. We can not make some. Okay. So for instance, sensitive, uh, where the networks dingy are exploding, you know, that's why the child at five, six years, so learned a lot of things can, making seven months and because there is an explosion of that means that there are many, many connections. Now your networks and, and that is a very sensitive area because it's trauma, um, happens at the same time, right? There's all these, a transformation in the brain, then it will, um, it will, of course manny, many areas the child, he, that is called the, a lot of neural networks, a lot of connections are last preparing them for the adolescence of four. So it has to clear. So that's why I'm the, well 13 years, so are more closed or, or have some transformation and you cannot recognize again the child that used to be until that age. And you see on the transformation, a neurophysiological level is not, uh, will to do that is the way the brain is developing your yet.
Speaker 2:That is really interesting. I must, I was just thinking how did this haram for everybody? Everybody has been going through those ages and everybody will in many of kids can relate to democratic is like that in
Speaker 1:every race, the uh, economics or personality or whatever.
Speaker 3:Yeah. What is the prevalence of psychological trauma? Because all of us apparently carry it to some degree, but when does it get to the point where it starts interfering with a person's ability to function in their, in their life? How many people are suffering from
Speaker 1:we naturally when something happens to us, we don't have to go to therapy that, um, we all know the address. Okay? So the race is the, um, the uh, for instance, um, a very serious incident with many people dying. Many consequences consequence. That is, is what is, uh, of course involved and, and, and the, uh, incident event was very, very serious. This is something that we have to, to take into consideration. How dangerous was what, what are the, um, be consequences in terms of Nice and in terms of threat instead of a people that you need psychological support, specifically station interventions,
Speaker 2:not for this specific kind of trauma. So there are many people involved. We actually number days we have examples of what you need in Isa in the south of Italy we had a half quakes, but also think about the refugee crisis that we're going through. A lot of people that are coming from very difficult, even under the travel, very difficult situation are coming to Europe and we're talking about millions of people. So it is, it is something that is very calm, very common now among them.
Speaker 1:Of course, yeah. Spots the different centers for immigrants because there's no way that the brain cell it has to be held. And another thing is when the you are a child, the age is a risk factor. So older children that are going through, um, traumatic experiences should have some help. Children in a school where there's an accident or a in high school where some, there has been a suicide of a giant. We have to work with all the classmates, with them, with the school over the, because this is from because it is, has been experienced, uh, in a very young and that is the respect that we need to interview. That's what the research and the literature. So, um, then people that have other factors like, uh, someone that is, uh, has been a trauma and another one, uh, he should have some help because the brain cannot process. So this is a risk factors and at the same thought, at the same time we have protective factors, protective factors like support, good is dealing with the trauma, feeling the emotions, talking about it and all that. In that case, probably his process in, well, he has protective factors and resources to do that.
Speaker 2:Actually we can connect, we can just think about providing some practical advices of um, you know, if we ourselves have experienced a traumatic experience. And um, so when an accident, or maybe I guess also a loss of a person or, or a difficult relationships, maybe you played with a husband or I'm in a very difficult way, a where if a person near as is in a situation has been through a traumatic situation, then what, what kind of a, let's say what kind of a thing we should have in mind, what can we do a before going to a therapist if then that results necessity or along with going with their therapist if that's necessary.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Talk with someone. So we really look for support. We would call it a friend or a family member or someone and talk about it. Uh, talking about it, feeling the emotions and allowing themselves to feel the emotions. They are sand. So you want to cry if they have to allow all this. So to the fuse,
Speaker 2:why? Going through
Speaker 1:what we were doing a very important thing. We're sensations in the body that or uh, and emotions and that we're putting into words. So we're going from the bottom up to the court, from the body and emotions to the cortex. And the cortex than says, thinking of that every time, I think this is the, that is recognizing emotion sensations. So he's integrating different levels. So that's why he's so important to share the, um, the things that we're feeling that we have been experienced in and
Speaker 2:kind of reconnecting with embracing, accepting it, kind of being more familiar with it, somehow
Speaker 1:not it is worse. And the other thing to know is that we have different faces a recovery from trauma day. Um, of course we don't see for we keep thinking irritable and you cannot concentrate and all that forever. Some days, some weeks diffusing, uh, we go to other, uh, other faces of the recovery like I'm giving meaning to it. Something that makes sense. Um, grow, for instance, they said posttraumatic growth, starting to give value to what happened. So the way we reacted, we feel stronger and we come to the conclusion that it was terrible, but I made it. And I understand now that I can
Speaker 3:put the value that you have done well in the traumatic situation. But do you also see people who keep on punishing themselves for the dramatic situation?
Speaker 1:Or you get stuck. So your question was, what is the difference? When do I know that I need the first day said they feel very bad. I have all of this a reaction. We have to know that that's normal. Okay. If, if, if some weeks and months I'm still there, then I'm back in that space. Okay. This is a way of understanding. Of course you can ask for help. Also, right away we work with people after some hours or the day after something terrible happened. This is psychological first aid. We can do that. We usually do that. And um, and we work also with Emdr in this case, like we, the people after the bridge collapsed these in August, you intervened in the day after we were already working with the people that were on the bridge am the people that were evacuated because they were living under the bridge that we're not in danger when the thing happened that they have to leave their homes and older gains and everything are. So we have been working with them. We're not waiting for them to go through all the faces. Some of them we'll send them up, but we're helping everybody so forwards and try to recover from this.
Speaker 3:What about protective protective factors? Is there any practical advice on how people can booster protective?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the protective factors coming in from the outside as well because we reach out for people, not people that do not want to talk about anymore because we're talking about that. I'm not giving too much importance what we're saying. So the, the, uh, device would be to talk to someone but shows two and ask for. And another good thing is the right to put that in. So writing everything that we're experience that helps a lot. Another factor. And um, and the other thing is a, I think sing, sing, get past that thing. Seeing the best. So who recall resources that we already what into practice in the past.
Speaker 2:So to make an example, I was hiking in the, in the obs and these summer endo was this range store and there was really scary and we were in Nepal at the point where when we could not, uh, we cannot stop moving gappy we're in the middle of the mountain in that moment, the way I had myself, it was saying, okay, I did this in this way before I can do this. I just remembered we were saying me and my friend that thinks ourselves and we handled that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You recalled best skills and you reminded yourself that was also saying, you know, you make it, you know how to do it. Uh, go ahead. You know, in that way you manage your emotions and your code.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 1:With that difficult.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking that before you mentioned as protective factors, you mentioned something about a personal resilience. Is that something that's naturally not something that we can work at A.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is natural to have resilience. So a lot of research. Yeah, actually do. And um, so in that way we can uh, learning from resilient people and one
Speaker 4:recently on people. Is that they, um, the problem into things, for instance, that they know that limits the things that you've learned from them? I do not, so I know that I can be very, very good at certain things, but I know that do not, we cannot control
Speaker 2:person. New to me has a diagnosed cancer and then one of myself I'm being diagnosed with a, with a, with an illness and then I, I would maybe try to be more objective and reflect, okay, I cannot control the illness itself. That's something that's there, but I can what it can take off what, what did I can take care of and that is maybe the cure and how I'm spending my time with it so that the devil had about our resilience and our way to handle a traumatic experience. That could be, for example, a new.
Speaker 4:Exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 3:just fine. I just wanted to comment on resilience. When you mentioned the cancer, for example, there there's a direct correlation proven correlation between your psychological resilience level and your ability to survive cancer and so, so psychological resilience is a very interesting thing, not only in the, in trauma, but also in an actual disease like cancer and also very much related to other psychiatric disorders like a, like depression and these things. Anyways, it's a very big topic. So I'll, I'll just leave it with that. Absolutely. And an important point here is that there is more and more indication that mental resilience can be trained actually, but let's say that topic for another, for another day.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes. So I'd like actually to, to hear your opinion on some implementation of some of the new technologies also in the treatment of trauma. And I, I read, uh, a very, very interesting and current research has done at the clinical level of creativity of technologies in the southern California University. Uh, it's pretty famous tours keep Risa who's developing medical virtual reality therapy. And the reason why I thought about this example connected to the work of Emdr, it's because with medical virtual reality therapy that's currently tested with a veterans from Afghanistan or Iran, uh, what happens is that the clinician, uh, used a virtual reality environment with the veteran, for example. So it controls the virtual reality environment and the veteran is to put the headset and he's brought into virtual reality space that's very similar to a Iran or Afghanistan, what he has experienced before. And then the clinician would a to be with him, talk to him, control the virtual reality environment according to the specific experience that, that the veteran has been true. And the reason, again, I'm connecting it to Emdr is that they explain that it's very impactful if the therapy is done while the patient, the veteran in this case, is going through a similar experience of what was his traumatic experience. So he was explaining that there's a huge difference between a person that's the veteran is talking to the clinician, say, uh, yeah, I experienced that in Iran instead of being brought in a, in a space. That's what makes him experience those emotions. So I thought it's very interesting.
Speaker 4:So Afghanistan or saying that I'm in California now and I'm in a safe. Yeah. In the spiritual thing is telling the brain, yeah, you can, you can see all these images. I remembered that you are safe. Now. It is the mechanism are the information and who do you need to update? I'm not there anymore, but I'm here, uh, seeing all these images and they live in, in a way the experiences I had there. So it's very useful to, that would integrate the new information. I'm safe and I don't have to react anymore to those images. Okay. So this is the principles that, yeah, Daddy's very guided and when we work with Emdr, we're doing the same thing. Uh, we're the, the, the, the, the client is relieving them, seeing the images and the thing again, it experience it that at the same time what we're doing, this elation, he is, they needed it by himself, not because he has, um, I had said he has his own a material and he's so process. Um, so in the case of him, the eyes is very, very, um, very brief for a memory. You can process it in one session or unexperienced, one, two, three sessions, and the, the brain to process itself does it naturally. This is the difference, but the mechanisms,
Speaker 3:one of the things that makes a difference, you're activating specifically the neural network that is basically representing the trauma and the brain. And while in a vr environment as immersive as it is, it will never be exactly the same thing. You're trying to stimulate similar types of using stimulus, similar types of stimulus. For example, an environment that looked kind of the same, sounds like the sound of kind of the same in order to try and reactivate the trauma. Uh, so that, that is a big difference in terms of how effectively we target the right neural network, which is why potentially for trauma therapy, things like emdr could be more effective than vr. But vr can also be used for things like treating, like using exposure therapy to treat phobias. For example, fear of spiders, fear of heights were exposed to therapy, can be a very effective method. Isabelle, usually we ask, we ask the interviewee to maybe give a couple of key messages, a to two different people. And in this case of course, uh, I think that the chemo just could be to two groups. One would be what would be the key message to people who have experienced severe trauma in their recently in their lives. That could be one group and the other could be what, what about the average person? Is there anything we should do about the potential childhood trauma that we might be carrying around? So actually you messages to those groups
Speaker 1:in the whole history of humanity. Now we know a lot about trauma and we have a different interventions to support people right away after trauma and also after some months, some years about a, even from chronic trauma, we can, we can, um, and we solve and help people even 30 years after they have had a traumatic event. So the key message is now we're ready to help in a very effective way. EMDR therapy is having function, social is one of the therapists that are more effective and um, and they're, they India, I'm in all the adaptive systems that we have to survive, recover from stress and also to, uh, to grow after a traumatic event. And so the key message is still ask for help and, uh, until allow themselves to be held to the experience of trauma. Having a lot of pain after that. It doesn't mean that we are weak, but it means that, uh, it is our brain that is reacting to it is, it doesn't our wheel on the kind of person we are. We can, uh, it is a neurophysiological process. Thing is too. There's a lot of things that we cannot avoid things anyway. So something that we can eventually avoid or in a way manage is a childhood trauma. We have to protect children from a dramatic experiences, mostly from a, um, a attachment, a difficulties from the, um, the caregivers. So working with the parents and doing a parent training, it could be a very important thing to avoid most of the child my children can experience
Speaker 2:and to. Thank you so much. Easier, bill on my side from Kim side and from the audience, and he would say so for allowing us to talk about a trauma and especially to talk about it without any stigma or without any judgment. So gentlemen, part of life a, hopefully not in the, in the worst cases of the, of trauma, but trauma is part of life when a person has a loss or next and um, and, and, uh, for being with us about the fact that trauma can be addressed. So, uh, thank you again very much. Thanks to you.