Dad's experience supporting homebirth after cesarean (HBAC) || Cian's experience supporting birth at home (Queensland)

This is another partner episode in the partners supporting birth at home series.

Today Cian, dad to 2 girls, shares his experience witnessing two very different births, a c-section and then a homebirth after caesarean. As with all the partner episodes be sure to share them, as we reflect in this episode, they are powerful and play an important role in understanding, choosing and feeling comfortable with homebirth. 

Resources: 

• The Purple Line in Labour https://www.sarawickham.com/questions-and-answers/evidence-for-the-purple-line/
• Birth After Caesarean by Hazel Keedle https://coreandfloor.com.au/products/birth-after-caesarean-your-journey-to-a-better-birth-by-hazel-keedle?srsltid=AfmBOoog7Eytny_gtQdPDC5wasYBifyofjiweadXdzIp2IZ3I3OzbFCk
• Episode 28: How to be a great birth support https://www.melaniethemidwife.com/podcasts/the-great-birth-rebellion/episodes/2147895640

Transcript

0:02

This is Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsa, your host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys, a doula in Melbourne supporting birth at home. I'm a mental health nurse and the co-creator of Home Birth Victoria. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast or my work as a doula, check out www.birthingathome.com.au. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Nam, Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have been birthing at home on country for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. This is another part in episode in the partners supporting birth at home series. Today, Kian Dad to two girls, shares his experience witnessing two very different births, a C-section and then a home birth after cesarean. As with all the partner episodes, be sure to share them as we reflect in this episode, they're very powerful and play an important role in understanding, choosing and feeling comfortable with home birth. Enjoy. Welcome Kierne to Bathing at Home, a podcast. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you for joining me on Saturday morning. I'm glad that I checked with you about the time difference because you're obviously in Queensland and I'm in Melbourne. and you're going to share your sort of partner story, because your partner, had a home birth after caesarian roughly eight weeks ago. that right? That's right. Eight weeks to the day. Yeah. Amazing. if I can get you to give a bit of backstory, obviously you're in Queensland, but about who you are, who's in your family, that kind of thing. That would be great. Yeah, absolutely. So, currently we're living up in far North Queensland, just up past Cairns. for my day-to-day job. I'm trained as a teacher and I've been lucky enough to step into a role in a bit more of a leadership role in the local school here. working with sort of those early teens students. Family wise, I've, you know, eight weeks freshly, now a dad of two, girl dad. Absolutely stoked. And yeah, obviously it's a good opportunity to jump on here because we've had, I guess, both ends of the spectrum in terms of birthing. our elders being, I guess medically, intervened, ended up being a Caesar and, and then obviously, little Maeve eight weeks ago, having a completely different experience with her, eye opening and just absolutely magnificent, home birth. Yeah. Brilliant. you know, what was your like experience growing up like around like knowledge around birth? Like, did you know like, Did anybody talk to you about birth? Like what was your, like, what was that like? It's funny. It's funny that you mentioned that, because I think in a lot when you talk to, or even when you mentioned home birth or any of that, the first thing everyone goes to is probably that same grainy footage that everyone gets shown in grade nine biology of the lady having a birth in a pool. And they don't really show it as a empowering sort of experience. more of almost like a shock factor. Like let's show the kids just a scare them almost. And that's about all you really get shown in schools, isn't it? Like even me as a teacher, like a lot of the sex ed stuff, I guess that we work through is a lot of it's just get through the birth part. all focused on the preamble, the leading up to birth. And I guess that's probably that it needs to be a big shift. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so before Indigo, who will be three in April, before You sort of started on the journey with her. Like, did you know about like home birth? Like was that, like ever a plan or was it always going to be hospital or? No, so, and I'll be completely honest with my partner and I were talking about this, this morning is even, even before, before like the journey with Maeve, even like a lot of the stuff is you, you have that, the perception of home birth is, almost like absolutely no. medical, anything to do with it. it's like, it's a bad term to use, I guess, but it's almost like that, the hippie sort of thing. And you know what I mean? And that's not a good perception to have. And I guess it was always just, if you get pregnant, you're going to go through the hospital system is sort of what you learn as you're growing up and with the people around you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's sort of how it was with Indigo. Yeah. And Are you able to give us a bit of a summary of how you felt with, you know, the birth of Indigo? It sounds like, you know, I don't know the backstory of Elev- having Indigo, but it sounds like it wasn't initially, you know, there was no sort of thought that it was going to turn into a Caesar. Yeah. And I guess the, that's the big shame is that it's, there's so much good about that entire pregnancy. Like even just how much Ellen the whole way through said that she was enjoying the pregnancy, just loved being pregnant, all those sorts of things. We didn't really have any dramas the whole way through. Even our experience with our MGP midwife, who even to this day is like now a close friend really. Like anytime we're traveling south, we stop in with her and all those sorts of things. Unfortunately, just towards the end, around 40 weeks, we had some reduced movements. And after that, they sort of said there was low variability. So they suggested induction, being new parents to it all. And I'll be completely honest, my personality is a bit of a worrywart to say the least. And so when you've got five or six different doctors that they're calling in the room and they're saying, we're probably going to suggest that you be induced. Looking back on it, there was probably some other things that we could have thought about given that they said we need to induce, but not for five days or four days or whatever we're to it in for the Monday. You know what I mean? So I can't do it on the weekend. you know, looking back on that now, but that's all just an experience. Obviously then you have the classic cascade of interventions. Once we started the induction, all those sorts of things happened. And then it went quite long. The pain for Ellen during labor, given it was a artificial labor, if that makes sense, like the artificial labor pains were insane. so it wasn't long before, you know, we had the spinal and then, yeah, things sort of went from there. And eventually that night we ended up having a cesarean. Yeah. Wow. And, you know, without getting too deep into it, I guess, you know, what was like, that must've been like very like scary, I imagine that, you in middle of the night being like, okay, this isn't working. Now we've got to have a Caesar. Yeah, exactly. And it was weird because as soon as they sort of hit with the label, with the reduced variability, it would just meant the second that Ellen went in there for the induction, she had CTG monitoring from the get-go. again, being a worrywart, I just sort of hyperfixated on that little monitor for about 12 hours, just keeping an eye on it. And then, know, as everything sort of came to a head, you know, was, sorry if it's gory, but there was blood in the catheter bag and that sort of stuff. And the heart rate was going all different sorts of colors on the machines. yeah, that sort of led me to, I guess, asking for help in there. Cause we were sort of in this room where the midwives are sort of wandering in and out. Yeah, it was sort of one of those situations where they were like, okay, well that's actually not normal. We're going to have an emergency seizure, but we're to have to wait an hour for the doctor to get in. there's this sort of hour limbo period where, um, yeah, I was, I was sort of freaking out a little bit. Um, and yeah, sort of a lot of reflecting sort of happened over the next 12 months after that. totally. Um, like, so you didn't have a doula or anything like that, like any other extra support people in there apart from the hospital midwives. Yeah. So we had, obviously being with the MGP, we were very confident and comfortable with our midwife, but the time in which we got induced, they have like a split shift. So the midwife that we'd known for 15, 20 weeks got comfortable with, she wasn't to start until midday. So we had like this five hour limbo period where we had another midwife that we'd once before that. And so Yeah. And then the other birth spaces weren't available. So we're in a, in a birth space that was also a partial, I guess, equipment cupboard type of thing. So there's a lot of just tools and yeah. That's interesting. That's not the first time I've heard of that, of being, of, you know, people being like, yeah, put into, yeah, like what they've felt like is, you know, like a storage room almost. Yeah. Holy moly. And so no, like through that whole like process, was anybody sort of communicating with you and like letting you know what was actually happening and, were they talking mostly to Ellen or? Look, to be honest, and again, this is why I have so much respect for the midwife that we're now still friends with is that there was, there was a sense of safety, I guess, once she sort of stepped into the room and, She had a lot of things that she wanted to try for Ellen before going to any of that sort of pain relief medication. Like let's try and get you up. Let's try and get, try getting on all fours. Let's try some hip squeezes, all those sorts of things that hadn't really been done before that. I think what had happened was that she was so exhausted by that stage because we got induced the night before. she sort of did. from about 7 PM the previous day, all night, a little bit of laboring, I guess, because the balloon catheter worked better than expected. She was four or five centimeters dilated by the time they got that out. Then the break in the water is artificial as well and all that sort of stuff. I think by the time the midwife we were comfortable with sort of stepped into the room. as much as she was doing everything in her power to have that physiological birth. Unfortunately, I think it might've been too far along in terms of just how much pain Ellen had already endured. Yeah. And so Indigo was born via Caesarean and in terms of, you know, obviously massive respect to Ellen, but like in terms of your experience, like postpartum, you know, being a a witness or a bystander, I guess, to that whole thing. Like, was that something that like sort of played on your mind in those months later? Or how did how did you manage that? and I guess it kind of also ends up leading into the whole home birth story is that I guess in those first couple months, like you're still you're not really even thinking about it. You're thinking about your fresh little wand and trying to get through those first few weeks of sleepless nights, all those sorts of things. having everyone around you also just saying, it's happy and healthy. Like that's the main thing. The classic, doesn't really matter. It's happy and healthy. There was other things as well that some of the doctors said. It's like, oh, it's good thing is we can just go for a repeat cesarean next time. If you want another child, we can just book you in and you can just be nice and quick next time, all those sorts of things. So yeah. Those, those are sort of the, the phrase has been thrown around initially. Um, but we didn't really have a chance to unpack a lot of it. Cause, um, you are definitely in a little, um, personal bubble where you just enjoying the, the little one. Yeah. And so, um, so when did the, so prior, prior to, or like, you know, when all of this is happening, home birth isn't really like on, on the cards. No, not at all. No. And so at what point does the conversation start to be around, okay, if we're having another baby or we are having another baby, are we, you know, what route are we going to take? Are we going for a V-back? Like, when does that change? Yeah, it's, it's a pretty cool way to look at it actually. We were very fortunate again, our midwife that we had through our first, she actually dropped a book off. I think it's like the, birth us, her birth after caesarean or birth after caesarean. She dropped that off and then I guess the home birth journey sort of started there and a lot of it wasn't even through saying we want another child, let's look at how we're going to birth next. I was actually sort of unpacking together what happened with the first. Wow, yeah. Looking at how did it end up that way because we had such a beautiful pregnancy and you know, just sort of that small bit of intervention. looking at a lot of the data around interventions and what sort of, what that leads to a lot of the time. And that, that was, guess, probably six or seven months after the first birth. then we sort of started looking into it and Ellen, I think you needed that just as much as myself and probably maybe more so that really wanted to unpack because, you know, there's some times where I guess as the mom questioning it and then obviously it's not her fault and that's the biggest thing, but obviously the way it ends up is sometimes you're questioning that. so unpacking that together and looking at the data around all of it and how it impacts a birth. just through doing that, I guess it led to, actually if you want to have the best outcome, it's actually home birth. And Ellen was the one doing a lot of the deep diving with that. And really reading up on so much about birth and physiological birth. so a lot of that already was in conversations at home. Like I'd come home from work and we'd strike up a conversation about some bit of new information she'd found out. And then just so many small things. So after a year, Indy was nearly one. We went on a family holiday, caught up with the midwife from our first birth and talking to her, turns out she had home births. it's like, well, there's more and more stuff coming out now. if, you know. midwives themselves are having home births probably has a big story to tell there. Yeah, something to hear about that. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And did you have like any initial like fears or hesitations or things that you had to work through? Like where you, you know, initially like my God, no, but you know, there's plenty of partners that have said that that was their initial response prior to learning about it. sure. And look, I think Ellen knows me so well inside and out in terms of my worryness that a lot of the conversations that she was starting with was like, well, here's the main fear that everyone talks about, especially if you try to tell hospitals that you're home birthing or even the fact that you're going for a VBAC. And so a lot of that, and so we were just talking through that again. nearly 12 months before we even decided to have another child. so a lot of the worries or any possible fears were, guess, already talked about super early on. By the time it even came to it, it was kind of like, well, I don't even know why we'd bother having the conversation. This is what we're doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing. And so what was your experience of like the pregnancy journey under midwifery care or private midwifery care with Maeve? Absolutely incredible. There's only one up in this area. I actually checked with her this morning. Again, we're still close with her. I made sure that she's happy for me to use her name. We caught up with Tanya. Ellen actually had met up with her early on, just in that journey exploring her first pregnancy and stuff. It's spoken to her about home birth and all those sorts of things. By the time I came around, And we had fallen pregnant and we're looking at the home birth journey. It was just sort of, yep, this is what's going on and met up with her. And it was fantastic. Like it's just such a different experience when you've got them at home coming and doing those checkups. And I'm very fortunate in my, I guess, my profession that even as a dad, you get some prenatal leave. being able to take some, yep, no, it's awesome. they do look after the dads. It is five hours, but most prenatal appointments usually only go for an hour. So that's five prenatal appointments across the time span. So if they're only fortnightly, yeah, it was awesome. know, being able to be in our own home when she first used the Doppler or, you know, having Indy there as well for a lot of those earlier appointments and Indy being able to listen to the heartbeat and all those sorts of things is, yeah, really set the tone for the safety of the home, I guess for the... for the birth as well. absolutely. And were you able to also go along to like the MGP or the hospital antenatal appointments with Indy? So we were, when we were pregnant with Indy, it was actually pretty heavily COVID times. Oh, was still COVID, yeah, of course. Yeah. So 2021, there was still a fair few restrictions and stuff with COVID. So a lot of it was if we were doing those prenatal appointments, I was using my time a lot of time for scans because with your first, you want to see every scan. again, that's another thing we did so different. know, hospitals telling you, you need to have X amount of scans or you're not measuring correctly. Is it the fondle height's not correct? You need to come back. And that's another thing that again, is a bit of fear. So I actually burnt up a fair bit of my time with that. In some of the later meetings, our first midwife with Indy, we were able to. meet at home. And so I took just some sick leave to, to meet, meet with her. again, being able to have huge amount of meetings at home with, with Tanya throughout the whole pregnancy was amazing. Yeah. And in the lead up to like, you know, obviously, you know, being present as a partner in a home birth is quite different to our hospital birth because you have a little bit more responsibility. there like, was there anything that you were like particularly worried about or like was constantly on your mind or anything like that? Not in particular, to be honest, because what we sort of had, and again, I guess it's the, positive side of social media, I guess, is the amount of stuff we were able to share with one another and what we actually did. I didn't realize it was a feature until we had a look is you can save a collection just for between two people. like, instead of, instead of having a little bit of data set to me, or like a reel that Ellen would send to me that I'd have to watch there. And then we just get it saved to the collection and then night we sit down together and you can look through the collection. like on Instagram, right? Yeah. Yeah. cool. Okay. Yeah. I didn't know that you could do that. only, so you can. Yeah. Okay. I didn't know that that was possible. I knew you could save as like a collection for yourself, but I didn't even know you could share it with someone. Yeah. can, you can set up a joint shared one. And obviously the algorithm being the way it is, my algorithm pretty quickly went pretty wild. My explore sort of changed from fishing cricket to a lot of blurred, censored, explore images. Yeah. But look, at the same time, it's part of the journey. really, if you want to go for it, you got to dive into that world, I guess, don't you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That's amazing. And so was Indy, the plan for Indy to be present at the birth of Maeve? We had her exposed to it, I guess. We sort of spoke to her about it. But then we asked a few friends that are also in some circles that also had home births. that had had polarizing experiences with their little ones. And we sort of figured the main consistent message was having a chat to the little one themselves. Do you want to stay here and be there for it? Or do you want to go to Nana and Poppy's? And the answer is always going to be Nana and Poppy's. I'm pretty sure she'd be there if she could at all times. Yeah. Just jump families. Yeah, that's cute. Cool. So it was just going to be yourself, Ellen and then the midwives. Yeah. Yeah. The two midwives. Oh, and the, the birth photographer as well. Oh, sweet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Um, do you want to walk us a bit through like that labor birth experience with me from like your perspective? Yeah, for sure. And it's, it's funny cause like you hear all these, especially on lot of these podcasts, they're always quite, quite wild, but, um, This one was probably as textbook as a theological home birth can be. guess the only strange thing was the way it sort of kicked off. I woke up to the lights and power going off at about 12 o'clock or 1 a.m. sort of thing. I said to Ellen, said, that's all right. It'll come back on. I thought she was mainly worried because the air kind of gone off and our little one, Indy, that was co-sleeping would wake up. She was like, yeah, I just had a contraction. We were sort of like, oh, that's kind of frightening. But exciting at the same time. They did stay 20 minutes apart. And so all I did was sort of just try to keep Ellen comfortable through that stage and try to get some sleep if they were going to stay 20 minutes apart. Because everything sort of tells you if you make it sort of through the night and into the day, it might settle down in the day. But we were definitely ready. Since it had started at night, it could go pretty quickly. Then we both managed to get back to sleep. I woke up to neither Ellen or Indy in bed. Ellen was already up and came in and said, look, your mom's coming to get her. Contractions are sort of 10 minutes apart. And she said, that's right. Your mom can come back and drop Indy off this afternoon because it's daytime. This is going to fizzle out. then by about 10, so that was probably at eight o'clock in the morning. We sort of just sat down on the couch, had some food, watched some just some Netflix, I guess, just sort of, then it all sort of went to the next level. got 10s machine, then the 10s wasn't enough. Let's get in the shower. And Ellen, again, trying to just sort she was like, no, it's going to physically out. It's okay. It's still six minutes. So I'm pretty sure it's quicker. I am a math teacher. I can't count. I think it's a little bit quicker than six minutes. we had a look at the... the classic purple line and sent a photo of that to Tanya. It was met with yum on the way. By the time Tanya got here, I got the pool ready. It was pretty hectic getting the pool ready with Ellen only having like two or three minute spaces between contractions. I'd have to run in, get the hose started, then go back to be this pressing board. Because the way Ellen did it in the shower, just had her head just buried straight into my chest as a bit of a... a leaning position, just as some sort of comfort. then, yeah, that was probably the only real touch and go bit, I guess, with just getting stuff set up. We had the pool blown up, it was getting water. So we had this big hose running through the house and the sticky tape popped off a couple of times. So there was water spraying the roof and Ellen's like, no, but you need to be here. yeah. Yeah. It was a job. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Then after that, was all systems go sort of thing. Like we moved from the shower, she wanted to be closer to the pool. So again, labeled a bit longer, same thing, tens and a bit of shoulder squeezing, all that sort of stuff. Tanya actually noticed that Ellen was instinctively, I guess, bearing down. she said, it's time to, Ellen just said, I'm getting in the pool. Like basically don't stop me. So she went to hop in the pool. I guess this is where my first tip for for dads, turn the tens machine off before you grab them to take it off your partner. You will be met with a nasty shock if you don't. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was good. And then, I think Ellen probably only labored in the pool for half an hour before, about half an hour, including pushing. then, yeah, Maeve was into the pool. Wow. It's amazing. my goodness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. those sort of crazy stories that you hear people where, you know, babies here before the midwife gets here or anything like that. Yeah. Yeah, it was cool. was amazing. Yeah. Wow. And I did see like a little video that Ellen's posted of you in the pool with Ellen. Were you in the pool the whole time or like most of the time or just at the very end? So I, so the way it started was, I guess I was on, that's what I'm just pointing because it was in this room. Yeah. So I was on one side of the pool and Tanya was on the other side and Tanya had to be there because, Ellen won't mind me saying this, Tanya's hip squeezes were better. So there was a couple of times where Tanya was out getting some stuff and I tried to do it and Ellen said, not you, get Tanya. And so Tanya had to rush back in and do the hip squeezes. I was just the... pressure board. then I guess in those last couple of pushes, it was just easier for everyone to be in the pool. So all three of us were in the pool, Tanya was in the pool for the hip squeezes. I was there doing shoulders, doing the, we had a bucket of ice water for the, like the cool press on her forehead, on her neck, all those sorts of things. Also they're just for, just for the affirmations as well into Ellen's ear. not that at any stage did she say that she couldn't do it, but sometimes it's also nice just to have all those. reassuring thoughts going through your head. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. It was amazing. Yeah. And do you remember like as like Maeve is like born, do you remember like, was there any like particular like thoughts going through your mind or like, were you just overwhelmed by emotion or what was that like for you? I think not in particular. I think a lot of, and I think there's some footage there from when it first came out where, I'm just sitting there just overjoyed, but also just telling Ellen that she did it. I guess that was the big thing because she said, you know, we've done it. We've done it. And I said, no, you've done it. is all you. This is two years in the making essentially that you've said you're to do it you've done it. yeah, it was just incredible. Yeah. Amazing. confidence from both of us from start to finish, I guess, throughout a lot of the process nonetheless. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, how different it would have been that initial, you know, postpartum like recovering from a Caesar and, you know, all that's involved in that versus just being able to just jump in your own bed. Like such a contrast. we had a beautiful birth space up as well. Like right next to the pool, we had basically a straight after birth bed. You'd almost caught it like some nice big soft cushions and stuff. So Again, there's some photos of Ellen just lying on that with Maeve and a nice big piece of mango, smashing a mango straight afterwards. it's just, it's insane to look at the difference between the two. So by 3.30, four o'clock that Avvo, my mom was dropping Indy back off and she said, well I'll come back and get her when Ellen's having Bubby again. said, well, you're not going to have to because she's already here. And, you know, Ellen just coming out after freshly having a shower, you know, it's so different. Like mom didn't even think that she had been laboring, how different she looked. And then you think about the recovery process for post-Caesarian and you don't even dream of getting out of bed for three days, let alone having a shower, kicking around, having some snacks, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, totally. How has Indy adjusted to big sister role? Oh, amazing. Amazing. Yeah, she's absolutely crushed it. Was, I guess not overbearing to start with, like some kids either don't want to have a bar of them or they are absolutely obsessed with them from the get go. She had like two weeks where, yep, this is cool. And now it's just insane. Like we'll be doing something as a family. Could be anything out there. Might be drawing with Indy or whatever, doing some painting and stuff like that. And she'll just say, well, I've to go see Maeve. Hang on. She'll just walk over to Maeve, give her a cuddle and then come back. that's so sweet. Just check it that she's still there. The most sister's still there. that's beautiful. well, that's a fantastic story. Thank you so much for sharing. is there anything else that you, you know, wish that you had have heard from like other dads or partners in their experience or something that you, something else that you want to say? Yeah. I guess, the big thing, I guess, if there's any other dads that are sort of. I'm wanting to know how to go about the entire journey or anything like that. guess the first thing would be it's not that it's not your decision, but a lot of the time it's, I guess that whole journey is, it was Ellen's sort of decision and it's not my job to try and convince her. Otherwise it was my job to do the education, know, get on the train sort of thing. You know what mean? It's time to really dive in and do everything. If I wasn't confident or anything like that, really learn how to know every single part of that entire home birthing process, really delve into the world. and like there's so many things that I did as a part of that as well. This podcast, the other partner episodes, and then I think just about every other person who's done it as well. think everyone cites the great birth rebellion, the episode 28, the how to be a good support person. That's an important one. That is a good episode. it's great. But like these, the partner episodes that that you do are absolutely phenomenal. And I think it's important as well to jump on and see so many different perspectives. But also doing those, I guess, in a time where you're in your own space so that you're not looking at it as a chore. So like, I can still remember to this day listening to three or four back to back part episodes while I just cruise down a creek having a fish. I just had it, it was just silent down a rainforest creek, had three or four part episodes going, just listening to the different perspectives. Came home with some notes with Ellen. yeah, I think that's the important bit to, make sure it's part of your life, not, not an additional thing. Yeah. And like, that's the power of story, story sharing. And I think it's really cool that you also identified that social media played a part because like, that is the reality of our lives now that, you know, anything is like, you know, you know, easily accessible and like the, the algorithm is, you know, it can be unhelpful sometimes, but it can also like really be helpful in that story sharing. and also the videos and whatnot. but yeah, you've mentioned some really awesome resources there, especially great birth rebellion. also really liked the midwives cauldron, podcast, but yeah, I'll make sure to link all of that stuff, including the purple line. I feel like some partners that will listen, we're like, what is the purple line? but I'll make sure I'll link something like, about that in the description, but yeah, it's been great chatting to you. and yeah, thank you so much. Thanks for taking the time even with, you know, eight week old Maeve. hopefully she's asleep or was it Indy that was going in the car? Who was needing to sleep? of them. So Nanny and Poppy came and picked up Indigo and, Ellen's out driving Maeve to sleep cause newborns sometimes don't, don't love, falling asleep for you. It's, it's a good one there terms. at the moment, the terms are sleep in the, in the car, guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My, um, 18 or 19 month old, Frankie, he, um, went to sleep at like 11 PM last night. So, um, yeah, I feel that and he's, he's, he's still 19 months. But it gets better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a journey. Yeah. Cool. All right. Thank you so much. Wonderful. Thank you.