133. Inclusion of Neurodiverse Talent 'Katherine McCord' w/ Favazza

The term "neurodiversity" encompasses a spectrum of neurological differences that are as natural and valuable as any other human variation. From autism spectrum disorders, ADHD, and dyslexia to those who dance with OCD or navigate the ebb and flow of bipolar disorder, neurodiversity is an integral part of the human condition. Embracing this diversity means acknowledging that the way we think, learn, and process information is not a one-size-fits-all scenario. It's about shifting our perspective from viewing these differences as deficits to recognizing them as unique strengths that can enhance our collective productivity and creativity.

Episode Website Link: https://www.ytspod.com/s4e133

New RSS Feed: https://feeds.megaphone.fm/yourtransformationstation

Transcriptions: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2242998/14547258

EPISODE LINKS:

Katherine's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katherine-mccord-093bb343/

Katherine's Website: https://www.titanmanagementusa.com

Katherine's Website: https://www.kmccordspeaking.com

OUTLINE:

The episode's timestamps are shown here. You should be able to jump to that time by clicking the timestamp on certain podcast players.

(00:01) - Embracing Neurodiversity in the Workplace

(07:18) - Exploring Neurodiversity and Personal Experiences

(15:38) - Exploring Self Awareness and Neurodiversity

(23:35) - Managing Bipolar and Ego Mechanisms

(35:24) - Understanding Neurodiversity and Self-Advocacy

(43:25) - Embracing Neurodiversity in the Workplace

(53:44) - Funny and Friendly Job Interview Conversation

Transcript

Gregory Favazza: 0:01

So we get addicted to the way our mind is responding. Now it's the conscious theme, or, yeah, it's the conscious scheme of what's going on, but then it's those running thoughts. That's the conscious scheme. And then when there's that gap, that's when our logic can kind of squeeze through their or self-awareness. So how are you teaching leaders that ability, to have that ability, if they don't have it in the first place?

Announcer: 0:32

You're listening to a podcast that encourages you to embrace your vulnerabilities and authentic self. This is your transformation station and this is your host, Greg Favazza.

Katherine McCord: 1:01

Hello, how are you?

Gregory Favazza: 1:02

Hi Katherine, how are you?

Katherine McCord: 1:04

I'm doing very well. Oh, okay, I didn't know you were on the screen.

Gregory Favazza: 1:08

Yes, here we go.

Katherine McCord: 1:09

Yes, I got there I was messaging you all like it's doing first. First, it wouldn't let me like onto the platform at all. Then I was sitting in the waiting room for like five minutes.

Gregory Favazza: 1:21

Oh, I do apologize. I was a little just getting back in helping my dog she's she's got a hurt leg so I was like, come on, let's go. I was like I ended up having to carry her.

Katherine McCord: 1:33

I have one. I'm like I'm not going to be a foster dog. Her new thing is let me lay in the grass and not move when you want me to come inside. That's the new game.

Gregory Favazza: 1:43

I'm like no, no, ma'am, yes, ma'am, that's so. I think it's actually a great like talking point to start off of, like with neurodivergent people and looking at inclusion in the workplace. I mean, do we get a pass if we're hardworking employees but we're late occasionally? No way.

Katherine McCord: 2:09

Where did my plug go for my freaking speaking of? Like a weird thing. Here we go Trying to plug in my mic. Hold on, it came unplugged because I knocked it with my leg. There we go. All right, my sound should be a little bit better too.

Gregory Favazza: 2:23

Oh, can you try that? He said a little bit more.

Katherine McCord: 2:26

Test, test, test. Can you hear me?

Gregory Favazza: 2:29

I kind of like the other way better, how it was coming off.

Katherine McCord: 2:33

Really. Yeah, I hate doing this without my headset and the stuff on Is the game. If there's a noise, I work at home, so if there's a noise outside, you're going to get it on the show, so that's why I? Like to do the headset better, but if you really like the other way better.

Katherine McCord: 2:55

you're the first person who's ever said they liked it better the other way. But that's okay, I can be flexible. Just know, if there's a noise outside like a bird or a lawnmower or something, it's just going to be at the show. No, it's a.

Gregory Favazza: 3:07

Are you utilizing a microphone If you can turn your game, if you can turn the game down just a little bit?

Katherine McCord: 3:12

I have no idea what that means.

Gregory Favazza: 3:14

Yes, no idea.

Katherine McCord: 3:18

Zero glue with that is and there's nothing that says that, like literally nothing. There's an echo thingy that's down. There's a volume thingy down, is that it Maybe.

Gregory Favazza: 3:32

That might just yeah that just controls that that's not helpful.

Katherine McCord: 3:37

Okay, yeah, I have no idea what gain is. I don't. There's no other button. There is on off, there is echo and there is volume.

Gregory Favazza: 3:45

You want to try turning the volume down? Just to here.

Katherine McCord: 3:48

I did. You said, that wasn't good. Okay, hold on. Okay, what about that? Is that better?

Gregory Favazza: 3:56

Yes, actually that's much better, Thank you.

Katherine McCord: 4:00

Okay, you're welcome, there we go. All right, I was like I don't know, I don't know what out of me? I don't know what that is Help me, help you. Yes, but we figured it out, we did. I love the team effort. I love it. It was, it totally was.

Gregory Favazza: 4:15

Oh, by the way, I have to show you this because you're going to love the third.

Katherine McCord: 4:23

Oh God, dang it. Watch, I'm not going to be able to reach her. So I just started a contract for a neurodiversity hiring platform. I'm helping to consult for the design. Okay, and this was my present for starting with them. They've turned me into a Funko Pop. Ooh, and it's just she. The box that she came in said neuro spicy cat. That's awesome, I like that.

Gregory Favazza: 4:51

I'm a little action figure of me. I think that's kind of cool.

Katherine McCord: 4:54

It is. I got to tell you that in between that and the, the Lego me that I have that was created at a convention for me Best convention present ever Whoa.

Gregory Favazza: 5:06

Oh my God, that is really cool.

Katherine McCord: 5:09

Right, a Lego master was there and he was doing those and you had to stay in the line. It was this whole thing. I was like, yes, worth it, best thing ever. Oh man, I did it, I did it right. Oh my God. I even had to go back to the convention just to pick it up and I was like I don't care, I'm doing it.

Gregory Favazza: 5:29

Yes, I would be exactly in the same boat, like way too excited about it. So what's the difference between neurodivergent and neuro? It's the other neuro word. I think I might have said it maybe five minutes ago. Yes, is this actually an issue that neuro divergent people have?

Katherine McCord: 5:54

I forget things. Yes, yes, it is actually so. There's all different kinds of terms around neurodiversity. So there's neurodiverse, neurodivergent, neuro spicy is a new fun one that's. That's one of my new kind of favoritey ones that people come up with just to kind of put a fun spend.

Katherine McCord: 6:10

But so, linguistically speaking in the United States and this is not true in other countries okay, but in the United States, linguistically speaking, neuro divergent and neuro diverse are interchangeable. Okay, they're. They're linguistically interchangeable because there is a misconception for a while that diverse held a different meaning than divergent. But there's more than one dictionary definition or diverse. So they're linguistically interchangeable. But it is more culturally natural to say neuro diverse, because nobody says that they're racially divergent or religiously divergent or culturally divergent. Nobody says that. They say diverse. So from that standpoint, neuro diverse slips a little bit better off the tongue. But both are actually correct. So I'm actually glad you asked about that, because I see a lot of people correcting each other. I'm like, actually you're, you're both right and wrong, you know, like you shouldn't be correcting the other person because they're right too.

Gregory Favazza: 7:09

That's fascinating. I even think of it like that. That's actually. That's kind of fun.

Katherine McCord: 7:12

Yeah, it's hilarious Like you're both right and wrong at the same time. It's cute.

Gregory Favazza: 7:18

But before neurodivergent became a started to come into trending words. What was? How would you identify this prior to knowing neurodivergent?

Katherine McCord: 7:33

So I always knew that I was different and I got my first diagnosis. Well, I was. My first diagnosis was recognized, let me put it that way. When I was very, very at about three or four years old, my parents realized like, oh, okay, this is what's going on. Luckily, I had parents that recognized the symptoms of obsessive compulsive disorder, as well as a few other, a few other fun little quirks, and, and then, you know, other things progressed, you know, as I, as I went along, and I have multiple neurodiversities that fall both on the medical spectrum and on the mental health spectrum as well. And and people, just it was really weird because people would say that people that had these characteristics were slow, which I always thought was hilarious as a kid because I did the smartest kid in the class, like I, as little Catherine, I was just like laughing at other people like you're just dumb, you're the dumb one. Like this kid over here is smart what's? Wrong with?

Katherine McCord: 8:42

you and that was. Unfortunately, people use the term mentally ill a lot and and that was never used at me, which is kind of interesting, but I at least not that I recall but there was a lot of that and that term was used to put people away and to lock the way to take away their rights, and so there's a lot of sensitivity around the term mentally ill. They're mentally deficient, there were all kinds of things. I'm just going. It's kind of where it was like anything that was different is no different than racism, right? You look back through history and people thought all kinds of almost hilarious things. It would be, it would have been funny if it hadn't been so detrimental. About people of different races. You know they're less smart, they're, you know they're incapable of controlling their emotions Like that's. None of that's accurate.

Gregory Favazza: 9:41

Well see, the weird thing is like when I was in middle school actually elementary middle school and high school they would separate different kinds of kids and kind of group them together and I was one of those individuals that got put into a different classroom to get extra time for my homework and there was a lot of factors happening. I mean, there's a lot of trauma that I was dealing with at home and then the only safe place was at school and then not being up to date with homework and understanding the studies, so they separated me to get caught up and I have ADHD or I don't even know if we're using that anymore.

Katherine McCord: 10:24

Which still are. No, that's a very popular one.

Gregory Favazza: 10:26

Yes, and not OCD my father actually he's very OCD with specific things. He used to like pull the plugs out because it would I mean you like to save money with electricity. So he figured pulling the plug out of the wall would save a few pennies there.

Katherine McCord: 10:47

So there are different manifestations, but one of the things that I always remind people is that it's about compulsion, right, that's what OCD is about compulsion. And it's funny to me how much these diagnoses are completely misunderstood, just 100% misunderstood. Like I have people that think that ADHD people can never sit still and I'm like, no, that's not right, they absolutely can. It's just different things manifest at different times and one of the most fascinating aspects to me about neurodiversity is the balance of it. So you have these things that are challenges, although I maintain that, like 90% of them are only challenging because the world wasn't designed for us, that if we use universal design, those things wouldn't so much be challenges anymore. But there are these challenges that get frustrating. You know like I can get in these ruts and my brain just keeps repeating itself and I'm stuck doing this one thing until I can break that pattern. But then there's these awesome things that come out of it and that's the part that for millennia we missed, right, and now we've started to realize, oh, this is a thing, neurodiversity is full of genius, and you know, johns Hopkins has done studies on this and Harvard has done studies on this, and it's you know, it's so many. That goes on and on and on and there are wonderful, incredible benefits to neurodiversity and I've seen it in my work for years.

Katherine McCord: 12:26

I kind of always joke with people that science is now catching up to my parents and I, that we all know we already knew this, we were in on this little secret and everybody else is just now kind of catching up to the rest of us. But I it's nice to see because it's so true. But isn't it interesting how we balance ourselves? You know, it's like we have this struggle, this thing that happens over here and that's frustrating. But then this really cool thing happens over here and it's because of the same thing, is caused by both are caused by the ADHD, or both are caused by the OCD, or both are caused by bipolar autism or, you know, dyslexia, whatever it is that's going on. So you're saying it's a.

Gregory Favazza: 13:07

It's a double edge sword, like where it can be a positive thing, but it can also be the struggle, or maybe the fact is that you overcome the struggle to make it into your strength. I think it's both.

Katherine McCord: 13:21

I think it's both. I think that we are inherently. This is true throughout the disability community, by the way, which, technically neurodiversity is part of the disability community, and there are three types of disability, by the way there's legal, there's medical and then there's societal. Societal is what it's opposed, right, but then there's legal and then there's medical as well. We can have all three. We can have one of the three, we can have none of the three. It's just kind of you know whatever, although I think all of us fall into the legal. But but it is fascinating because it is both, it is completely both. And, to use my husband as an example, so he's on the spectrum, the autism spectrum, and because of that, the way that his mind works allows him to create entire processes for organizations and to build those out within a day or two, which would take other people like a month to do this thing.

Gregory Favazza: 14:15

I believe it.

Katherine McCord: 14:16

And he can do it just so freaking quick. He's also a phenomenal teacher, because he actually. There's this misconception that people with autism can't read other people. That's not correct.

Katherine McCord: 14:27

It's just that their responses are not the same as everybody else's socially acceptable or right, yeah, it's what we used to call we were kids like socially awkward, like awkward, that kind of thing. But he's a phenomenal mentor or teacher. But, on the other hand, like humor, while he's hilarious, I mean he's like comedial level hilarious. That was learned, that was a learned pattern from. That was not natural and it. And he doesn't respond to emotional stimuli the same way as other people, so that that can be frustrating. But just you know, it doesn't have to be when you learn how to communicate inclusively. But the same thing causes both issues. So it can cause frustration over here and then strength over here. For me, with my mania, with my bipolar, I work in my freight train right now.

Katherine McCord: 15:20

I did nothing. I'm hyper creative and all this, but don't give me a credit card. That's not going to help. Yes, well, maybe the stores. It'll help the stores.

Gregory Favazza: 15:30

Now I'm really interesting, you said, because I had this direction, I want to go that way, but with a learned behavior. So with my encounter with all different types of people, from the military to the childhood, you you can recognize people that don't have it's, some of them are just surface, and then there's more that actually have that understanding of the complexity. Now I understand that self exploration plays a part in that, but what if? What if there's like more to actually losing it? Because my professor he was, he was also autistic and him and I would hang out like every Thursday for tea and he would just tell me about the struggle it was for him to get in front of the class. He had to psych himself up, but he and but he loved it. Once he got in front and I don't know him and I just kind of clicked and it was learned behaviors that he illustrated to get students to pay attention.

Gregory Favazza: 16:38

Now, why? Why do we pick up these learned behaviors to put on to ourselves, like, are we trying? Are we walking through life trying to figure ourselves out? And we kind of just pick out these natural traits that we see in other people and just kind of like, oh, I want that, I want this.

Katherine McCord: 16:57

There is something that that happens in all people. Right, there's adaptability. We all are for social creatures, so we are designed to connect to one another in some way, shape or form. You see a lot of people that neurodiverse community do this with, like art or music or literature. These types of things it's very common. It's a way to reach out and connect comedy. So another one there are wonderful comedians that are neurodiverse, including a system. They're some of my favorite comedians around the spectrum.

Katherine McCord: 17:28

But there's also an unhealthy aspect called masking. That people do because without that, other people won't accept them and it's a survival mechanism and it's actually a very unhealthy one. So what it does is it makes, it creates patterns that cause the brain to work in a way that's unnatural for it and then that creates stress. It causes anxiety, causes heart problems, digestive issues and causes undue stress. It's really a very traumatic experience and then it's one that's extremely common, from everything from autism to dyslexia, dyspraxia, adhd, on the mental health spectrum, and it's, you know, society has holds these people. You're not acceptable as you are. Plus, what a traumatic thing to be told. You know you're not acceptable. You're not the thing. You need to be different. The way you are is bad, yes, and so there's also the mental trauma of that as well, but even the physical as I described.

Katherine McCord: 18:35

So there's healthy ways that we do that, that we adapt, like my husband learning to be funny. He likes laughter and he like that, so he learned comedy is hysterical. Oh my God, great delivery. In fact, he got me the night we met by sitting there doing Andrew Dice Clay impressions for me and it was just I just died. It was so freaking funny and then it was hilarious, like that just got me. But then there are the unhealthy ones and they're the ones that suck and we don't want to do that. That's the part that we have to move away from as a society, that we have to just start accepting this is just who this person is and that's good. That's a good thing. They should be that way.

Gregory Favazza: 19:18

Now, are we taken on traits from, say, previous experiences with relationships and, if we are, how we recognize that they are? I mean being like acted out without our awareness at all.

Katherine McCord: 19:35

That's a. That's a. It's a lot of self awareness and self mapping. I do a lot of self mapping to manage especially my bipolar. I actually go on manic unmedicated. I have for the majority of my life gone unmedicated with the bipolar one and I do that through self and I had a great team. I want to be very clear. This took years and years and years of work. I had a great team supporting me. Self mapping is a great tool for that. It's also one that can help you unlearn masked behaviors and help you kind of go back and be like, oh okay, yeah, this is not the thing. That's good for me.

Katherine McCord: 20:10

So, starting with starting to realize how you feel with each reaction and you know when I do this thing, does that make me feel tense? Do I? You know? Do things happen in my gut? Your gut tells you so much. It's crazy how much your gut will respond to things and looking for those responses and then slowly unlearning them. And it's a long. It's gonna be a long process for some people. Now some people take to it and they unmask like liquidy split. It's almost like this whole other.

Gregory Favazza: 20:41

So what's the difference with self mapping and then trauma therapy, removing the trauma? Is there a difference with those two?

Katherine McCord: 20:49

There is a difference, but they're very related and they're often used and intertwined. So you know it is. I do like to encourage people, if you feel the need, to pursue formal therapy options. I think that's a very beautiful thing to do. If you don't like traditional therapy, you can also pursue nerve work. There are a lot of people out there that do specific and be careful. Don't go to what I call the woo woo crazy people. Go to the smart woo woo people. Okay, go to the people that have scientific backing and medical an actual medical backgrounds and can actually help you work with your nerves these types of things because it has kind of the same process as the trauma therapy and then do the self mapping and really start really start digging in and doing the tough work.

Gregory Favazza: 21:36

I never. I never heard of that self mapping before, so I think that's what you literally make a map like.

Katherine McCord: 21:41

You make it like charts or diagrams or you can draw it If you're artistic. I am not. Nobody wants to see my drawings. I was that kid that, like my mom, had to be like so tell me about this, because she had no idea what the drawing was, that's how bad it was. So don't do. But you know it's. But that's what self. So with self mapping, you actually map yourself so that you then go back and have a reference, so that when this happens, I know this happens and this happens and this happens and it establishes your patterns, so that you learn to understand yourself and then react to them.

Gregory Favazza: 22:12

So I'm imagining it more like a mind map and starting from like the center, which is me, I mean we have traits, we have characteristics, things of values, and then go further if, and then put it in a situations where I'm challenged, I have these reactions and then from there I want to change a specific reaction and then bubble again to what I'm feeling versus what I'm not feeling. Yes, exactly.

Katherine McCord: 22:39

Yeah, exactly yeah. So I changed this one little thing because I want this thing over here to change. And then we map how that goes and then it, you know, and then we kind of go from there. For instance, I use this with the depression cycles for my bipolar and then I eventually use them for the mania cycles as well. But we felt to start with the depression because it was deemed more dangerous at the time.

Katherine McCord: 23:02

And now I get through my depression cycle so easy because I know what's happening. So I wake up and I move around. I'm like, oh, that thing and there's. And I've trained myself now to recognize, oh, this thing. This feeling is here, my depression cycle is kicking in. That means I need to do this, this, this and this so that these things don't happen. And these things do happen. And then I start to watch them and I look for the different patterns throughout the day so I know how to respond. My husband's great at that. He actually sees all of it before I even do. That's my recommendation If you have bipolar Mary, and I'll just it really works, really works very well. But you're going to make them nuts when you're manic.

Katherine McCord: 23:44

But it's really good, but it's really, it's really cool, yeah but in situations like that, it's very true, yeah, but you know, like it's true and like I have several very good friends that have ADHD, and I think it is the most delightful of the when you just watch it and you just like it's just like, and now we're over here, and then we circle back and now we're back over here, and it's never boring. That's what I like about it. It's never boring. But, yeah, it's but, but, but making sure that you're taking care of yourself.

Katherine McCord: 24:22

I think he's a part that a lot of us miss. A lot of us don't really learn ourselves. We don't really learn how to take care of ourselves. In fact, we were told our whole lives very specifically, not to take care of ourselves but to fit in with everybody else, and so for people in the neurodiverse community, they have to unlearn that and they have to learn that it's good to take care of themselves so that their way is not wrong. That's how they're designed, that's how they're supposed to function, right? You know, you kind of always laugh like it's like telling a lion like, hey, go be a good fish, and getting mad at everybody's a terrible fish. Well, yeah, it's a terrible fish.

Gregory Favazza: 24:57

That's a really good analogy. But I do remember, like when I had these issues that I was dealing with, that I was learning how to I wouldn't say fit in, more like blend in, so I wouldn't stand out because of what was happening. Psychologically I felt like it was much bigger than it really was, and definitely a healthy support system is what is what I need, is what I've always have needed, and because they you're right, because they can see it before it's even happening, I'm like how do you know I'm getting pissed off, I'm not getting mad.

Katherine McCord: 25:31

And then they're like yeah, yeah, you are.

Gregory Favazza: 25:33

I'm like, oh, hey, yeah, I guess that makes sense, and like with the, with that like depression that can usually last for about what? 40 minutes to an hour, maybe longer, depending on if you don't I got to have my morning routine done. If I don't do it, then it my whole days.

Katherine McCord: 25:52

So with bipolar it actually lasts for weeks. Wow, and I had. What goes up must come down, right, so you start with one end of the cycle. For me it's typically mania, as I. When I was younger, my depressive cycles were the stronger cycle. Now it's it's the mania, and I much prefer the mania being the longer one.

Gregory Favazza: 26:16

Yeah, yeah, it's, it could be fun.

Katherine McCord: 26:18

I really do. It's kind of fun, it really is, it's really great. I would not know from personal experience I want to stress this, but my, my doctor, who did my blood level, said it was almost like I was at like the peak cocaine high for, like that's why I'm not sleeping. Then that makes some sense. Okay, so, like chemically, what my body was doing, that's, you know, that's. That was kind of the equivalent, um, we had it last a long time it does. It's exhausting, like okay, I'm tired of this. Now I want to do this other thing, this is, this is better, um, so now, what's funny is I look forward to the depressive cycle, because then I can sleep, like I love the mania cycle. But then when the depressive cycle sits up, it's like, yay, sleep. I go crawl into bed and, like you know, I kind of catch up on my sleep, um, but during the manic cycle I can catch up on work, I get super creative, have lots of fun, you know.

Katherine McCord: 27:16

But it could be one of the one of the most hard things I was ever told is I actually didn't realize this, will not that my husband pointed it out to me, um, that he had noticed my face when someone said this to me, which was that people go oh you're, I was manic, and the person the person saying this did not know that. Okay, I would be very clear about most people in my life do know the cycles. They could recognize them because I talked about them very openly. This person did not, as they were not trying to be rude, but they said to me you know, oh, you're more fun like this, you should always be like this. I was just like I'm not mad about it, but it was kind of like oh, but I can't do this all the time.

Gregory Favazza: 28:04

Yeah, what it's interesting is that we can even get addicted to these chemical changes in our body. Oh yeah, we're the build up to that moment, like for the manic state it just like you could be thinking about it, like you're craving a snack, like it's true.

Katherine McCord: 28:23

Yeah, give me my mania. Like there's times I'm sitting there like, come on, mania, come on, I need to be able to do this thing for work and I need you. Come on, like get going. I can't do it, I can't. I've tried for years. I can't jumpstart it. If I ever figure that out, man, I'm going to be so excited.

Gregory Favazza: 28:39

Yes, definitely have to share it with everybody.

Katherine McCord: 28:42

Share the share of the knowledge. You're going to turn it on and off, but I really like, but no to your point. You do crave it. But the other thing that we crave, that I think we miss a lot as humans and this is true for neurodiverse people and non neurodiverse people is that we are also addicted to our ego mechanism. Yes, that little yeah, hardcore right. Yes, for anybody listening who doesn't know what that is.

Katherine McCord: 29:08

So the ego mechanism is naturally occurring. You should not feel bad that you have it. Okay, it is a naturally occurring defense mechanism that gives your brain needs to be correct, because to not be correct means that you're not safe. So the ego mechanism when something has threatened a way that you think about something or your belief system, the ego mechanism is the thing that immediately starts going no, I'm right, no, I'm right, no, I'm right. And throwing up defenses as to why it's right. That's why you see these insane social media arguments where people are just arguing beyond all reason and completely ignoring this completely logical point that's being made and just being ugly and nasty because their ego defense mechanism has caught on, and that's kind of an extreme version, but it's true.

Katherine McCord: 29:51

But we're addicted to that because it releases the dopamine and the adrenaline and we actually get addicted to that, and so then we get more feisty, right? Or we constantly want to argue with people. We can't wait to throw out our opinion about something, and so, instead of listening to someone and receiving what they're saying to us and this is this kills inclusion, by the way. I see this all the time. So one of the first things I do when I go into an organization professionally and I work with them as I teach, to respond in curiosity, not ego, and how to do that, because without that, you're not going to have psychological safety, you're not going to have effective inclusion, because somebody is going to come to you and say, hey, this doesn't work for me and you're going to go, well, then you need to change.

Gregory Favazza: 30:33

No, this is really interesting. This is going a step deeper. I'm like, thank God, like this, is this blood? We're doing this. Let's not hit the microphone, but don't do that.

Katherine McCord: 30:48

I really not my no for a minute ago.

Gregory Favazza: 30:53

So we get addicted to the way our mind is responding. Now it's the conscious theme, or, yeah, it's the conscious scheme of what's going on, but then it's those running thoughts, that's the conscious game. And then when there's that gap, that's when our logic can kind of squeeze through their or self-awareness. So how are you teaching leaders that ability, to have that ability, if they don't have it in the first place?

Katherine McCord: 31:22

Yeah, it's tough, right and it's fun, because what I start by doing is I start to bring up obviously controversial topics. I just mentioned them. I don't go into them, I just mentioned them and you see the hackles, right. You just see everybody get tense about something, the shock factor.

Katherine McCord: 31:40

Yeah, and they're like she said that thing. And now I have this opinion that I need to get it out of here. You feel it, I go that right there. You feel that feeling. That's the ego mechanism. So first we have to learn to see it right, we have to learn to see it. And then I pick one of the controversial topics. I say don't worry, we're still not going to dive into it, this is not going to turn into any debate. But I then show them the mission alignment.

Katherine McCord: 32:08

So, for instance, I did a class not that long ago and I said, ok, so we're going to talk about the issue of my example is going to be the issue of how to treat transgender children. And again you see those hackles right, like everybody's got a opinion, so you're OK. On one side, you have people that are really concerned about the biological effects of hormone prevention or whatever, that are very concerned about these types of yeah, yeah, yeah. And on the other side, we're really concerned about suicidality and about mental health and about making sure that someone feels included and belonging. And then that's like, yeah, yeah, what I hear is that you all care about children. And everybody just paused and you saw that. You saw the ego go away. You saw it just go and I said you all care about children. That's what this is all about. I said now you have different ways that you want to solve the problem that we have here or the issue, whatever you want to call it, but you have a different solution in mind, right? But the only way that you're going to get there is by asking questions and coming at it from the angle of we have this mission alignment. So the important thing is to, number one, recognize when that ego mechanism is kicking in.

Katherine McCord: 33:35

And I teach people that I literally trained myself how to do this. In four or five minutes, I would touch the arms of my chair or I would tap my foot once gently on the ground, and I taught my brain when this happens, you have food on the table, you are the pantry, nobody is trying to attack you, you have oxygen to breathe, you have money in the bank, everything is okay. So now my brain I just spent a few minutes, you know, teaching my brain. This happens, it means this. This happens, it means this Literally four or five minutes.

Katherine McCord: 34:09

So now, if somebody says something to me that brings up that ego defense, because it's still there. Trust me, it's still there. I'll just tap my foot one time, very gently Nobody even notices I'm doing it. I take a quick breath, just a, and then I ask a question. And that's the pattern. You recognize it, you stop it and you call it. And when you do that one little thing, whatever it is, that registers for you, you can squeeze your hand, tap your fingers, whatever it is, but that thing that lets your brain know we're safe. So no, thank you, I don't need these chemicals right now. Thank you so very much.

Katherine McCord: 34:47

And then when you respond with a question, it gets the conversation going off so you can say something like, for instance okay, so I hear what you're saying about how to handle this issue. Can you tell me a little bit more about your thoughts on that? Or can you tell me how you came to this conclusion? I would love to learn more about your perspective and just kind of dive in. I've even said to somebody this is what I received. Can you tell me, did I understand you correctly? And can you then elaborate a little bit more for me on that and just get into that conversation and just really let people in?

Katherine McCord: 35:24

What's interesting is your brain synapses actually change. So the actual design of your neuro patterns change and your brain starts to understand. If we ask questions, these positive things happen and we get more knowledge and more information, and then there's less danger in the world because there's less blind spots, and then your brain gets super excited to ask questions, which, by the way, then you kind of understand. If you're neurotypical, but it's like to be neurodiverse, because a lot of us want to ask 50 million questions all the time, we actually have to restrain ourselves. So this practice is easier for certain communities in the neurodiverse community than it is for everybody else in the neurodiverse community and everybody in the neurotypical world. There are certain people that are just going to take to this method very quickly.

Gregory Favazza: 36:16

Okay, don't go any further. This is like a best stopping point. Now can we apply that strategy to other issues? Can we apply it with anxiety, say? We have like stage fright, we have to give a presentation, like for somebody that is neuro typical how would they apply it? But also somebody that maybe isn't. Maybe it's something that they can try to develop.

Katherine McCord: 36:41

So that's a great question and this is actually sort of not exactly obviously, because it's a different chemical response, but this is basically the same process that I used to get myself through the depression and to understand. So now I can tell my brain, I know what you're doing and we're not actually in danger, we're not actually upset. It's not that everybody hates us, we're not alone, we're okay. And so understanding what's happening to you is very important. So number one the first thing I tell people is whatever your response is whether that you're trying to deal with, whether it's anxiety or anger or like a freeze response Some people it's not even quite anxiety, but just like their brain just kind of goes I'm off, now we're just starting off, whatever. That is number one understand chemically what's happening to you. So do some research, look it up and say, okay, what is my body releasing? Then kind of learn what needs to happen to counteract that. So when you have the, for example, of the ego response, it's an anxiety and it's the survival mode response. It's an attacky, like I'm being attacked and I must defend. So you have to tell your brain you know we're not being attacked, we're okay, calm down. You know, with the anxiety. That's a fear-based right. Your body is like it's kind of a freeze. It's a version of the freeze response and so understanding how to counteract those chemicals.

Katherine McCord: 38:11

So I have somebody very near and dear to me who has just petrifying stage fright but loves to give talks, kind of like you were talking about their teacher, loves to give talks, loves to share the information. It just gets crippling stage fright and so one of the exercises that we kind of came up together she has a psychology background. One of the exercises that we kind of came up together was that before she goes on, she just walks herself through what's safe about it, the safety, you know, areas that have been put up for her, the boundaries that she set that will make this safe. She walks herself through, maybe depending on the exact talk. You know if this happened. This crazy thing does happen. You know if somebody asks a question I'm not familiar with, how can I respond and how can I make that okay? And just kind of processes herself through it to let her brain know we're okay, we're not gonna be hurt, it's all right, you know. It just kind of works herself through that.

Katherine McCord: 39:07

For a lot of neurodiverse people also, prepping like over prepping can be very helpful. So actually coming with a list of different answers, you know, having a list of the questions that may be asked of you, maybe very helpful. So again, self-advocacy, actually I would say, is huge for that. So self-advocacy, but then learning to understand what's happening to your body so that you know how to counteract it. Because a lot of people just do this like a free-for-all, like I have an anxiety, so I'm just gonna run around on a circle like no, no, your body doesn't need more more of those kinds of chemicals, it doesn't need more excitement chemicals, it needs chemicals that are gonna calm it down, and then it needs to stop producing these chemicals.

Gregory Favazza: 39:50

Yes, so they put L-thinning in energy drinks and I buy pure L-thinning and it's really cheap and I think it's like three or four bucks for like a bottle of 120,. I take a couple of those and it kind of just relaxes me. It's for people that maybe have had too much caffeine. You take a few of those and it can kind of get that jittery feeling out.

Katherine McCord: 40:12

And Isn't it interesting too, like how different neurodiversities react to chemically different to things?

Gregory Favazza: 40:18

Yes.

Katherine McCord: 40:19

It's fascinating to me. It's fascinating. It's utterly crazy to me. Like a lot of people don't know that the drugs that were used to quote, quote, treat ADHD for years were legalized speed. Yes, they were methamphetamines. Yes, they were giving to children. That's what they were doing. They were giving children methamphetamine. And then they wonder anyway, that's a whole other conversation, but because of the chemical difference in the brain, it does calm a child down. You give those same human beings a downer. That's where you see some people that have. They have a very different reaction to alcohol. That you're like that's kind of bizarre.

Gregory Favazza: 41:00

Maybe, they.

Katherine McCord: 41:00

It makes them hyper. You know which is interesting. So you see, I've seen people with ADHD that coffee makes them extremely calm and it's very backward. So I always tell people again know your own body chemistry, know what you should and should not have. I eat differently depending on where I am on my bipolar cycle. Oh wow.

Gregory Favazza: 41:23

Yeah.

Katherine McCord: 41:24

Yeah, have different dietary needs based on where I am.

Gregory Favazza: 41:28

So with neurodiverse people, like we took on this superpower, I like to look at it that way through. Maybe something that's I think it's something that's traumatic that's happened as your younger self. For me, I've experienced with some situations and I just adapted from recognizing people's intentions and now you keep developing. Now these intentions can be something that's applied to something much larger, as to say, an organization for risk management.

Katherine McCord: 42:04

So, oh, that's very true. Yeah, and I do think it's interesting because there's so many ways that you could end up with neurodiversity. It could be born. There are genetic components, there are trauma components, like you said, and there are medical components. So, for instance, my sister has a traumatic brain injury. That was you know. That was that was random. I have a PTSD that comes from trauma. So there's all different ways that you can get. One of my neurodiversities comes from seizures and an unnamed neurodifference in how my neuropath, my neurosynapsis, work in my brain. So it's interesting, right, like there's just all these different ways that we can get there. But yeah, we do kind of end up again because we're creatures of balance, we're supposed to balance each other out. So about balance ourselves out? So we do develop kind of these superpowers, like you said, and actually Johns Hopkins did some of the best research on that. It was fascinating.

Gregory Favazza: 43:05

I'm sorry, I'm fixating on this moving truck.

Katherine McCord: 43:08

You're okay, because I had a possum that was just hanging out in the broad daylight right outside my window for the first like 20 minutes of our talk and I'm like what is he doing? I'm also sort of like nocturnal creatures and he's just sitting out there munching on some nuts or whatever, just hanging out outside my window. So it's okay. It's okay. Neurodiversity.

Gregory Favazza: 43:26

Yes, I just don't know why they just had to keep it in reverse like that long. It's stop being weird.

Katherine McCord: 43:31

It's stop it, stop it.

Gregory Favazza: 43:35

So with management, like, how are they applying this understanding into today's workforce? With this, I mean, we're going into mental health. But now, with understanding neurodiversity, what does that entail for people that have it?

Katherine McCord: 43:50

So the number one thing that I tell everybody is stop insisting that everybody work in the same way. It doesn't make any sense, it never has made any sense.

Gregory Favazza: 44:01

Thank you, jesus Christ, thank you.

Katherine McCord: 44:05

Nobody is going to work in the same way. I really need people to just stop with that. So people are going to communicate differently, they're going to need different tools, they're going to need different setups to their actual physical workstation, whether they're in person or remotely or working remotely, and so we need to understand. And they're going to receive information differently too. And it's really funny because whenever I do my talks and I get asked what if you have a leader that likes to communicate this way and the employee likes to communicate this way, and I say, okay, well, here's some tools. I give some specific tools that they can use to help bridge that gap. That way, everybody is accommodated, because that's what you want, right Is inclusion of everybody. And I do tell people. But ultimately, let's say you can't find a compromise, which I have yet to find a situation where you can't, but let's just say that you can't.

Katherine McCord: 44:56

You chose leadership, so suck it up. You chose to be in a position to take care of the other humans, so they come before you. So if I am ever in a situation where I and this has happened to people for some of the technological advances that we have today where I have to choose between my comfort and that of my team. My team comes first 100% of the time, and I will always say that's what should be required Because we chose that, right. That's different, that's our choice, but now there's so many advances that it's so freaking cool. So if you have somebody, for instance, who I'm gonna give a total plug to one of my favorite accommodations If you have someone who likes to monologue right, there's several nerds that like to monologue, and sometimes it's very directional, as is typical of autism, and sometimes it's a little bit more chaotic, as is more common with dyslexia or ADHD. So there is a cool new app called Storyd and the web address for that is B Storyd.

Katherine McCord: 46:05

It's okay, babes, I'm gonna cut it in crisis, and I just need you to know it.

Gregory Favazza: 46:12

Barley, it's all right, babe, she's dreaming and I'm trying to.

Katherine McCord: 46:18

Animals always throw you up. My cat has come and just yelled directly into my mic like mid monologue. It was hilarious. But yeah, so, Bstorydai, and what this technology does is you talk into it and you just go off right and you do whatever this that you wanna do, and then it comes back and it says hey, I noticed that you said this multiple times. Is that the recurring theme? And then it starts to piece together everything you know. I noticed that in the middle of this you started talking about squirrels. Do you want me to take that out? That doesn't seem relevant to the conversation. It takes that out and it pieces everything together.

Katherine McCord: 46:52

So then you can send something in writing to this other human right, and that's organized and methodical. And so if you're a person at any level in an organization and you're having trouble getting your thoughts in an organized fashion, use something like Bstoryd. Bstoryd is my favorite, but there's other technologies out there. But use those technologies to help you. Chat, GPT eh, it doesn't really help you organize, and stuff like that. But use those technologies, use them, Use them grammarly to help you with your writing. But another one, good, good.

Katherine McCord: 47:30

And there's another thing, though that cracks me up Companies will have only one way to do a process or a procedure. Yeah, I'm like no, no, no, no. And so what I teach organizations is focus on the mission of whatever it is. This is the thing that needs to get done. How we get there is completely flexible. Completely flexible, Like this is the thing that has to be accomplished. All the rest of it, you know, we can bend, shape whatever. And then again that ego thing comes into play too, Like let your ego go, Cause that's some of it too right. You see so many companies that are like oh, we designed this, so it must be perfect. It's like they take it like a personal front that you have a new way to do it.

Katherine McCord: 48:12

It's like no, just chill out with that, so with, so, with neurodiversity. Number one make accommodations into standard options. Stop making it a big hoopla Party to the department of labor. 54% of them are free. There is no excuse. Just make them standard options. Be flexible, listen to your team. And another one, too, is quit being nosy.

Katherine McCord: 48:37

I've never understood why people feel like they need to know your diagnosis or they need to know this or that. You should have enough psychological safety that your team is comfortable telling you. But let's say there's some reason they don't. Maybe they just maybe you have a great team, but this person's had a lot of trauma and maybe they've been discriminated against countless times or something like that. They don't want to tell you or they just don't want to freaking talk about it. All you need to know is what they need and how it will help. You don't need to know why. I like that. Yeah, you don't. Just don't be nosy. I did a whole campaign of posts about that a while back, like hashtag don't be nosy. So true, just don't do it. You just need to know the what and the how.

Katherine McCord: 49:20

I think that if we can shift the mindset of the workplace to that, to focusing on what and how and to focusing on universal design, which means for everybody, and understanding that you'll then have to update and be flexible, and all that and all of that's designed in which I keep. People always catch on to that so quick, because that's what they do Well, they should be. That's how we approve it and that's how we create a fully inclusive workplace for everybody, no matter neurodiversity, culture, age, whatever it is, lbg, tqia, whoever it is. That's how you create inclusion. That's it. It's very simple. It's universal design, it's listening and it's designing with everybody else in mind, not from your perspective.

Gregory Favazza: 50:18

Wow, you hit it right on the head. Let's transition to closing. Now, katherine, I'm going to leave you with the floor and let you share with our audience whatever you would like to share and how they can get in touch with you. They want to learn more.

Katherine McCord: 50:36

Oh, that's frightening. I could just say whatever I want. That's horrible. No, no, no.

Katherine McCord: 50:43

This is what I like to be people with is learn myself. First of all, come to these deep understandings, especially with the responding and curiosity, that ego. By the way, if anybody wants to learn more about that, reach out to me. I am glad to walk you through it, talk to you about it, give you more information. It will change your life at an exponential rate. It changes how you communicate with everybody that you know. It changes how your brain processes information. It increases intimacy with other humans, because, let me tell you, there's nothing more intimate than letting somebody change the synapses in your brain. People always talk about the intimacy of sharing something about yourself, but the intimacy of letting somebody in is an entirely different thing and it just makes your life more beautiful and wonderful. So I want to encourage everybody to do that.

Katherine McCord: 51:34

Learn yourself, learn how to take care of your body the way you are, and please know that you are designed exactly how you are supposed to be. You are not wrong, you are not less than you are not defective in any way. I mean, I'm definitely defective. I have more medical conditions than most 87 year olds, but, but, but. My base design, before all of that kicked in, my base design was really great and my mind works exactly as it should. So I want to encourage everybody out there to be comfortable with yourself. Reach out to those other people who will embrace you and love you exactly as you are and support you in your journey of unmasking and discovering a healthy way to be.

Katherine McCord: 52:20

If you want to reach out and connect with me, I'm all over LinkedIn. I'm on their way the heck too much. I'm easy to find, just Catherine McCord. You can also go to my speaker site, which is kmacordspeakingcom. Or if you want to learn a little bit more about neurodiversity, I did start a charity called the neuroverse, and that's join the neuroverseorg and neuro versus. In E U R O V E R S? E. We have some events coming up. Feel free to check those out.

Gregory Favazza: 52:49

Yes, ma'am, I'll be sure to link all of that in the show notes. Catherine, I do appreciate you coming on the show today.

Katherine McCord: 52:56

Thank you so much for having me.

Gregory Favazza: 52:58

Were you able to get everything perfect? Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah that's it.

Katherine McCord: 53:07

Well, you were laughing at me like oh no, I'm the victim, I'll be like, I'm just the whole thing.

Gregory Favazza: 53:12

It's relatable. That's what makes it true. I mean it's very relatable. So thanks.

Katherine McCord: 53:18

I did a post a while back about my age disabilities. I was like this is it? I literally was not a fall story. I literally once had Aflac call me when I was in my 20s and they thought they had my age wrong because they were like there's no way to somebody who's 20 says all of this. Oh, wow.

Katherine McCord: 53:41

It made me laugh so hard. That was one of the funniest moments. I'm just watching that poor person be so embarrassed. It's okay. I'm just like, oh no, she's gonna hate us. I'm like that's okay, All right, I'm not mad.

Gregory Favazza: 53:59

Geez, my jaw is killing me. I haven't smiled like this long in an interview, so this was a great experience for me, so I really do.

Katherine McCord: 54:09

I'm so very glad. I'm so very glad. Please take care of the puppy. I guess I get how I get what that's like. So, yeah, I have my whole zoo out there waiting on me.

Gregory Favazza: 54:22

So yes, ma'am.

Katherine McCord: 54:26

I will.

Gregory Favazza: 54:27

I'll get everything all set up and I will email you everything once it's all completed.

Katherine McCord: 54:32

That sounds wonderful. All right, and stay in touch too. If there's anything you can do to support you, let me know.

Gregory Favazza: 54:37

Yes, ma'am Likewise.

Katherine McCord: 54:38

Take care All, right, bye.