Ep. 73 - Win More Bids, Lose Less Money with Baxter Horton

Want to know how general contractors decide which subs to trust with real commercial work? We sit down with Baxter Horton, Director of Pre-Construction at Baldwin Shell, to open the black box of estimating, pre-con, and risk management in a way most folks never get to hear. Baxter’s path from trade partner to GC gives him a rare perspective on what actually wins a bid: clear scope, financial readiness, honest conversations, and a schedule you can defend.

We talk through the jump from residential to commercial and why cash flow can make or break that first project. Baxter explains how GCs level bids, why detailed proposals on letterhead matter, and what to include in your inclusions, exclusions, and assumptions so a reviewer can select you with confidence. We cover bonding limits, insurance requirements, 30-60-90 terms, and how to build cost codes that let you justify production and protect your margin. If you’ve ever wondered why “we do everything” turns a GC off, this is your blueprint to speak their language.

You’ll learn practical ways to bring value beyond being low: flagging scope gaps like roof drain tie-ins, aligning civil and plumbing drawings, proposing alternates that cut weeks off the schedule, and documenting the savings in time and general conditions. We dig into communication cadence, how to ask for feedback after a loss, and when to stop investing in contractors who won’t value your detail. Baxter also shares Baldwin Shell’s footprint across Arkansas, the types of projects they build, and why they’re hiring estimators and pre-con managers who think like problem solvers, not price relayers.

If you’re a subcontractor aiming to get that first commercial win, or a young estimator looking to build a career in preconstruction, this conversation gives you the tactical playbook: know your costs, manage risk on paper before dirt moves, and play the long game with partners who value clarity and trust. 

Subscribe, share with a teammate who bids, and leave a review telling us the one change you’ll make on your next proposal.

Transcript

New Year And Commercial Focus

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Hey guys, welcome to the Blue Collar Business Podcast where we discuss the realest, rawest, most relevant stories and strategies behind building every corner of a blue-collar business. I'm your host, Cy Kirby, and I want to help you what it took me, trial and error, and a whole lot of money to learn. The information that no one in this industry is willing to share. Whether you're under that shade tree or have your hard hat on, let's expand your toolbox. Guys, welcome back to another episode of the Blue Collar Business Podcast. Uh, this episode we're traveling down a different path. Um hang in there if you're in any type of the pre-construction world, estimator world. Um, we're going to be talking and navigating the commercial sector of that today, but um just wanted to welcome you guys to 2026. I can't tell you guys how much I appreciate the support of 2025. And we look to push the podcast and bring you the people that you guys need to get the information out of and challenge them to help change what little we can in the industry, but bringing awareness is where it starts. And um, this gentleman I have met uh through our local marketplace, honestly, but uh he is a director of pre-construction at Baldwin Shell, a very large GC that a lot of you guys may know here in the southeastern United States. Um we're just specifically talking about Northwest Arkansas area today, guys. And he's got some opportunities to share with you. But at the same time, we're gonna be talking about what you guys can be doing to set yourselves apart to get a GC to approach you. Or not only that, on the pre-construction side of things, how do you walk into a GC? Say you're coming straight out of college, you know, the guys that do, or maybe you just want to just grunt it and get your way into a uh commercial construction company. This uh the estimation side is uh its own world in in what we do, and to learn it and navigate it and be able to sell it is sales is everything, as you guys have heard me say so many times. So uh the one and only man, uh Baxter Horton, thank you so much for joining me today. Seriously. Great to be here. Thanks for the invite. I uh so how give us a little brief background, as much as you want, to kind of share. And then we're gonna pick apart a GC today. I'm excited. No, I know that's what a lot of the guys are probably sitting there thinking, like, oh, you brought, but guys, this is what it takes. It takes um two parts of the conversation, subcontractors, and we're also gonna talk about the relationship value that people like Baldwin Shell um, you know, value. And there's other GCs out there that don't value the relationship whatsoever. But as you guys know, there's always nightmare stories. But we're also gonna try and talk about how you can, you know, set yourself up to ensure that you're prepared to deal with a commercial contract. To be fair, on from the subcontractor side of things. I think a lot of times the goal is just to jump right in there to the commercial game as quickly as possible. So hang in there, but tell us a little brief background if you don't mind.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Sure. Um born and raised in East Arkansas. Uh went to college up here, U of A, Go Hogs, and uh got a kinesiology degree. Really? Exercise science. I know you can looking at me, the picture of fitness here. Uh, but uh uh once I graduated, um we uh ended up moving to Dallas shortly thereafter. Um, and about a year after being Dallas is when I actually got into construction. It was kind of like what I was doing wasn't working out, and through a friend had an opportunity, and I said, Well, that sounds interesting. And here we are 23 years later. Um always on the estimating side? Uh that's where I started, and that's where my strong suit's always been. Uh, been a little bit in project management and overall company management in a in a few locations, but uh always uh seem to have more of a knack on that pre-construction estimating side of let's figure it out because nobody wants me building anything. So we every everybody makes more money if I'm sitting behind a desk and a computer. So if I'm out um on the back end of a shovel, we everybody has lost the games.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Yeah, for sure. So in Dallas, did uh what was kind of like, you know, say you're this guy sitting here on the other end of the screen. What did you do?

SPEAKER_01 4:44

You navigated into a right into a commercial joint or yeah, so um I started for a uh commercial trade partner on the landscape and irrigation side of things. Um, and uh they did a little bit of concrete flat work as well. So I got hired to be a project manager and estimator. I'd never opened a set of plans in my life. And uh one of the stories I recount to a lot of people is I remember asking my boss uh a few days in, all right, we got to do a concrete takeoff. And I was like, well, what does this mean? I don't know. And what does this mean? Well, I don't know. And so I think uh, you know, fortunately, the good Lord gave me a good head on my shoulders and I was able to figure a lot of that out on my own, but I never stopped asking questions. Um, there's always somebody that knows more than I do, and trying to take that approach in in life and specifically in the construction industry, uh, will really serve you well. And it's definitely served me well.

Lessons From Dallas And Niche Work

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Um, so it's it's kind of funny that you say that because what a lot of guys, especially solo operators from the sub perspective, you know, you're kind of caught between the PM and the estimator role. You know, I know you you can probably think of three or four subs that you have directly right now that you're like, hmm, that guy, you know, God bless, I wait two weeks on a price because he's standing on my job. And it's like, you know, you can't really get on him, but my God, it'd be a little bit better. But it's funny that the knack, it is a knack. It it's a different side, a different perspective, a different perception of how the construction world is. And as you know, Dylan, we've uh you spent some time with him. We call what he does the fantasy land. And because you never know if it's actually gonna happen or if you know this works out, or if it's so different than what five years used to be. But um, we he's got the knack for it. He understands, he says, I am the vehicle. He repeats on repeat, I am the vehicle. The more I bid, the more we can land, the more the guys can do, the more money's in the bank. He is the vehicle. But it's so hard because, as you know, the hundreds of hours that you invest in these projects to get down to a contract signature and the guy across town gets it. And but to personally have that knack, if you're sitting there navigating to the commercial world, estimation uh a dang good estimator can make really good money, yeah, as you know. And but the PM sector, oh, you you can really have a knack for that, but that's not what we're getting at today. So you stayed with the estimation lane. When did the transition in Northwest Arkansas happen?

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Yeah, we had uh some family things that uh led us back here. So both my wife and uh my sisters live here in Northwest Arkansas. And of course, we met here in Northwest Arkansas and and uh so uh had that dynamic on, decided to move back. And so we've been back about a little over three years now.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Okay. Oh wow, dude. I didn't know it was that recent. Yeah. Oh that's crazy. So um talk a little bit about the Dallas market, I guess, bidding all of that. I know that was you were a part of the big growth down there. I mean, you've seen a little bit of it. Uh, I don't know anything about that world. I know how fast this place grew, you know, over the last couple of years. But um, talk about a little bit of those early years of getting your feet wet because I think there's so there's so much real value in what you just said. Uh your boss at the time hired you to be an estimator and you ask him a question. I ain't got a clue, bud. Figured out, you know. But that's what a lot of these guys are doing. But I'd love to hear some more stories on the early years and working in the Dallas market.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

I mean, yeah, Dallas in general. I I think there's a lot of parallels and similarities between Dallas and Northwest Arkansas. Um, there's obviously a scale difference, you know. Uh Dallas, I mean, we've got seven, maybe close to eight million people in that metroplex area now, and we're just a little bit over, I think, a million now on the four counties of northwest Arkansas. So huge difference there. Um, I never complain about traffic here because I've lived, I live Dallas traffic. So traffic here is great. So, you know, it's it's um it's it's a high-paced market and there's a lot going on. Um I think similar to Northwest Arkansas, there's a lot of people because Dallas is growing, there's a lot of people from the outside coming in too, right? So you always have to be mindful of who you're dealing with. And uh just because they've got a flashy plan for a new development or this or that doesn't mean they actually have they're not the type of people you really want to do business with. Man. So um, I mean, we face that here too, right? We've all we've all seen that come and go and learned our lessons and taken our licks. Um, but you know, the the thing for me going in that market and from uh from the landscape and irrigation side, and then when I transitioned to end control and we're doing uh architectural water features, you know, which uh is its own thing and it's its own niche market, and you know, but you've got to make sure you perform there just like any other trade. And our margins were pretty good because we were so specialized in niche, but we were also a little bit of a disruptor into that market, a new name compared to an old guard. And so we were able to, you know, we took our licks too, learning some things, making promises that uh maybe we didn't know, have figured out right at the time, but then we figured them out as we went and and uh learned a few things along the way. And and it really and that role really shaped my success in the commercial general contractor world because a lot of times when you build fountains, you get a circle on a page and it says fountain. And so you get to figure out all that goes with it. And uh uh a lot of times general contractors like to just have that termkey. So we not only had our MEP stuff that we would self-perform, but we would hire a concrete guy and a waterproofer and an earthwork guy to help us pull the whole thing together. And so learning that coordination on a smaller scale, but a very high visibility item on a project uh was really a great training ground to be a general contractor and doing what I do today.

What GCs Value: Risk And Coordination

SPEAKER_00 11:09

So no, 100%. And if you can find somebody like in control, like you were just talking about, uh, as a younger guy, getting your feet wet, that's a prime example. You're doing the nature of the beast of general contracting. But uh if they set a footing an inch wrong, it's not a hundred thousand dollar error, you know what I mean, or six inches low, you know what I'm talking about. But it's such a smaller scale. But navigating the schedule of four or five subcontractors and pulling them together to get one fountain per se in in that, it's exactly what a GC does. And uh, there's such a difference between good ones and bad ones.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Well, and to, you know, as on from the GC side of things, especially as the markets transition on the construction manager roles versus a true GC, you know, we're really managing risk a lot of times. You know, we we we manage the risk through the coordination that we bring. And that's where we bring value to project is the coordination amongst all the trades, uh, since we're not necessarily builders ourselves on a lot of the scopes, but uh, you know, that managing that risk. But the way I believe anybody that's doing bringing the best value to their customer is we're not just managing our risk, we're helping everybody manage the project risk. Yeah. And so that's where we can really partner with with people and help understand what's going on. You may be looking at the utility scope and understanding the risk here, you're not necessarily understanding some of this adjacent risk. And once we inform you of that, that helps you better understand and oftentimes helps lower your risk too. And so when you lower risk, you lower price. And when you and then you just have better projects, and that's what we're ultimately striving for.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Literally for sub and GC, uh, you you don't want 85 phone calls a day of crap going wrong because the engineer and because of the architect and this guy and this sub, and everybody has those days, but you want to string along better days and good.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Well, they're right. And we can answer a lot of those questions on the front end. Yeah. Instead of just saying, well, we'll figure it out later, being proactive, because it's construction. We're going to find things nobody expected. It happens every day on practically every job site. And so why not figure out the things we can before we've ever scratched dirt? And when we do that, we just were able to really perform very well as a team on every project.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

And I think that's where the term pre-construction comes from, is a really good jam-up pre-construction team. Man, those guys, the producers, can go out there in whatever parameter, whether it's a super uh scheduling trades and we've got the right trades and subs lined up for the project, or whether you're the sub going out there and you see that February 14th been on the schedule for six months, and you show up and you start dropping material on the 12th, you don't catch a phone call of, hey man, what are you doing? Uh well, I'm dropping my material. Your schedule said February 14th. Uh, yeah, we're nowhere near ready for you. Well, then why didn't you update your schedule that you email me every single week? Like, yeah, or just shoot me a phone call and go, hey man, we're we're trending an email, anything, you know? But there's there's so much of that that can be handled on the pre-construction side and leave and literally visibly see, hey, look, our utility sub, he knows that area. He's made us known that there's some risk here involved with this manhole that's existing. It's been here 30 years, and it's gonna take him some extra time. So let's leave him that gap in that schedule. So whatever trades are around that area aren't affected. And and that's the trade relationship, the the sub to GC relationship. And, you know, I'd love to hear you a little bit of insight from you about, you know, I made mention about how these guys, as subs, there's a lot of guys that they think um they want to jump head first into commercial world. I did too, by God. And man, I think I would have uh hung on a little bit differently. Uh, but man, don't judge yourself on yesterday's decisions with today's wisdom. But I'd like to hear a little bit of insight of maybe what these guys can be doing, you know, say the two or three-year-old company that's got some good residential work, but wants to cut their teeth on a smaller uh GC project. And you guys are a much larger profile, but how do they get in the door with an estimator or or somebody at the pre-construction team? You know?

Breaking Into Commercial As A Sub

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Yeah, I mean, first off, for for us at Baldwin Shell, we we uh our tagline even is building relationships. So, you know, we really value relationships. I know everybody says that, right? We do try to live that. Um, and you know, sometimes we get it get it do it well and sometimes we don't, but we're always trying to constantly learn and and uh um you know accept grace and forgiveness from people. But you know, the uh just reach out, I think, is first and foremost. Um be honest about what you actually do and do with your own services, your own cell, you know, your own uh crews should rather should say. Um if you're gonna subcontract out a lot of stuff. Oh, that's and some in some things, right? That's that's a thing. So like building structures and stormwater and stuff like that. Understandable, but like help us understand what you really do. Yeah, what your company excels at. So that's first and foremost. Um when we get this, oh well, we do all of that. Well, that that doesn't help us uh really to hone in on what would be maybe a good first project for you to do with us. Also be realistic um about um the size of project that you might get, you know, you with a company for the first time. Even if you're an established commercial trade partner, um, you know, if we don't know you, the likelihood we're gonna give you a large subcontract to to start getting to know you is is probably not realistic. Um be willing to go after some smaller stuff. Um, because from our side, uh, you know, in the work that we do, we need qualified people to do the smaller stuff too. And sometimes companies get so big they decide we don't want to do the small stuff anymore. Well, that doesn't help us get to know you very well. And so it's a bigger risk for us to issue a larger subcontract with somebody we don't know versus somebody we do know. And so if there's a a small dollar differential and you know we're we're trying to make a choice off value, if we don't have that relationship, we then then that's not showing the value that would overcome that dollar difference, right? Um I had an example of just recently working with a trade partner at a small project and they're capable of doing stuff that's a hundred X of what we signed them up for, right? But you know, it was a good get to know you and everybody really enjoyed from both sides uh doing that. And so that's what we're what we're striving for. Uh you just got to be prepared for the commercial world too. Um it's it's a different animal than the residential. Uh, you're not gonna get that 50% deposit uh that you're getting on the residential side or 25%, right? You have to prove out your cost um and you've got to be able to cash flow that. Uh and and so one of the things that we're looking at uh as a company too is is your financial risk. Uh and so you know, we're gonna look at the your project history and and pre-qualify you and understand, you know, okay, no, they they, you know, this is a$200,000 contract. And even though we don't plan to bond them, they could only bond a$100,000 contract. Well, that's probably a no because you don't have the financial um uh backing to really do the project. And ultimately it may be disappointing for you to lose a project, right? In that regard, but it's also a service to you because we GCs are really good about uh putting people in difficult situations, right? And and it may not even be our fault. It could just be uh uh uh just a culmination of events, uh, but when you get there, you know, you don't want to we don't want to hang anybody with with uh the decisions that we've made because we took a risk, even though the financials were iffy, we took a risk and and now it's not working out. Now our project's delayed. You may be even going out of business. That's just not good for anybody. And that's not how we want to serve it, the people that we're working with as well.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

I think you hit the nail on the head that a lot of these guys don't even understand, and I didn't either, is that you guys are managing risk. And when when they understand coming from the residential side of things, maybe even the light commercial, they're doing some sub-of-the-sub work or whatever, and they've been in and off of commercial work. But when you start signing these contracts and you start putting up bonds and your general liability insurance is what it requires to get on these sites, and you start carrying some of this overhead, stuff gets real, real quick. And uh for the excavation and utility guy, I'm not just sending 10 guys to go wire a freaking building with a with a, you know, I'm sorry I'm picking on you Sparkies, but I'm sorry I've got more overhead expense than a than an electrician does or a plumber does. And so if you're in the excavation space or the utility space, guys, make sure you do have a good financial understanding before you start navigating 30, 60, 90-day pay terms. And it's not always like that. If you build a right relationship and you get in with the you understand your payment terms and you discuss those, it's not taboo, guys. It's what you're doing it for to begin with. And make sure you understand the payment terms of a contract. You can add you can, hey, Mr. Estimator, man, this is kind of my first one. Don't try and hide it either. Like I think that's such that's a great point.

Financial Readiness And Cash Flow

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Just having honest conversations. Yeah. That's that's the world where I prefer to live in. And I'm always gonna have an honest conversation with you. That doesn't mean I can always share all the information, right? But I'm gonna be honest with you about the situation. Um so I need you to be honest back, you know. So when we're reviewing scope, if you don't have something but you're afraid to tell me you missed it because you're afraid you'll lose the contract. That's right. Well, that could be the nail in the coffin for you, for you or you as at that company or for the company as a whole. Because sometimes they're big ticket items. Again, your plan being hoping that it'll work out later, well, that's not a plan. So uh we need to we need to make sure you're whole. And if you if you lose the job because you left something out, well we'll take that as a learning experience. Uh, if you win a job because you lose something out, it might work out. It might not. Um, and and we've all done that, right? And we have to make strategic decisions on, well, I didn't pick that up, but I don't that's I'm not worried about that. But you know, if it's a big scope element, you know, we've we've had you know things like retaining walls and and things like that. Let's have the conversation. Yeah. When we do that, uh on the pre-con side of it, and this is what I tell my teams and I tell our project managers why we're trying to do this, we are focused on costs. We always have to be mindful of costs. That's that's our industry. We're one of the biggest capital expenses any company will ever make when they're building a building. Yep. Um, and that doesn't, they don't make those decisions lightly. So we always have to be mindful of cost. We have to bring value with that. But at the same point in time, if we give them a job, a building for$2 million that should have cost 2.2, but hey, they got a great value of two, but it leaks, yeah. Did we really give them a good building at$2 million? No, we no, we didn't. So let's figure those things out so we get, you know, bring them a good value so their long-term maintenance and things like that are better for them as a company. But saying all that to say, let's have an honest conversation. We can work some things out. Um, I want when we go to sign a subcontract and we go to build upon that, you know, that building and that subcontract, I want your project managers, your superintendents, your operators, and our PMs and superintendents. I want you guys to go build. That's what you want to do. That's what those guys excel at. I don't want them fighting over how much whether something should be a change or not. Right. So let's uh let's push all that to the front, not hope it'll work out on the back. And because nine times out of ten, it doesn't ever work. Or somebody's trying to figure out how to make this job profitable because on paper it's not profitable right now. And so that project will suffer and it's not going to have the best results it could. And so it's going to damage your relationship with the general contractor. The general contractor's relationship with that owner is going to be be damaged. But if we can have honest conversations, we can figure out ways, even if we have a target value with the customer that we can't exceed that, but we pick that up in your scope. We can then work through the scope because we understand what the true cost of the project is. If we don't understand the true cost of the project, we don't, we really don't understand what the outcome will be. Uh we're just, again, hoping. And that's not what we need to do.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Hope isn't a high performance item.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

No.

Honesty In Scope And Cost

SPEAKER_00 25:53

And uh Tim Grover, Der World. Um, but you you hit some other nails on the head, and you're right, on this side of the table, prepare yourself. Yeah, not just financially. And guys, I want to give a shout out to mobilization funding. They are a great cash flow item. If you're entering into your first commercial job, they will teach you how to literally cash flow a job and it costs you a percent or two, but you can work that out on the front end. I'm telling you, there's tools as you guys have been listening to the show that can help you navigate the financial side. Go get some help. Don't just enter with what you think you should. I, dude, I did. I went feet first. You saw me grow, and we were all over the place and we still are. But at the same time, man, it was my wife just trying to rein me in the entire time of can we get our feet underneath us? Can we please? Do you know what this is? What is this? Look this up, talk to this person. And I'm like, I don't know. We just gotta keep getting let's just do more work, do more work, more revenue, more revenue. And I'm like, it if it eventually just it will absolutely hit the wall and come to a screeching halt. Um manage managing your cost is where I'm trying to go with all of this. You've got to know your cost. You can't just be chasing the revenue. And so early on, as a subcontractor, you're trying to navigate, you don't know your cost. Hell, you don't know what it costs for your people to be out there, your trucks, your equipment, your tools, all of that. And so when you're trying to go back and forth with labor on a GC, they've got cost codes associated to everything. And you hell, you don't know what a cost code is yet because you know, you're just learning. And so spin around, they're sitting here going, what do you mean? There's no way that can cost$5,500. Like you push back and you're like, well, I I think it's gonna cost me, you know,$5,500, sir. And but there's no justification. There's no, there's no uh cost codes associated. So when they're saying they're they're not asking you not to make money, they're asking you to justify your cost. So make sure, as you guys know, I hammer this home. Nick, shout out to Mr. Nick Peters coming on the show. Know your cost. And that was actually uh Mr. Kiwit. He spent some time with uh the Kiwit bunch and he pulled out to one of his jobs. There's an orange sign, said know your cost in the middle of the job site. And he and he asked Mr. Kiwit, like, hey, uh, what is this sign about? And he's got one in his office, one's heading to my office. Uh, but it has unlocked so many doors. Um, the other thing that you hit you hit on as a subcontractor is, hey, hey, Baxter, uh, this is how we're at SciCon. I just wanted to let you know, I know roof drains are uh a terrible sore subject on your commercial projects. They either end up screwed up because the utility guy didn't want to capture it, and the earthwork guy did the storm drain package. But hey, man, we kind of do some hardscape on the landscape side. And I know we could probably tackle that better and be a little bit more efficient. Would you mind on this next project giving me a look? And you're gonna be like, bruh, absolutely. Because you know, roof trains aren't this huge item, right? Unless it's this ginormous building, whatever it is. Most general cases here, guys. Um, you know, that's a great example to offer up as a first introduction into a GC as maybe a pipe guy or a dirt guy.

Bringing Value Beyond Low Price

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yeah, well, I was just what it makes me think of is how if you're trying to get into that commercial world or you're trying to get in with a general contractor and you're already that you've targeted and you're already in the commercial world, how can you bring value? Right. And if the only value you're bringing is price, well, you know, it's it's just it's tough competition. Um from what we're trying to do with with the school districts and the private owners that that we work with, right? They're they're long-term owners of their buildings, right? And they're not planning to flip this building two years after they're done with it and just reap the profit from that, and they don't have to worry about the maintenance of it, right? They they want a long-term quality product. So we're striving for that. And so how can you bring us value? You can bring us value through alternate materials that that save save money uh or provide faster production, right? So it may be a slight increase on your side, but if it can help us get off the job faster, we can actually save the owner money because our schedule is shorter now, and that means our team on the job, maybe we're only out there nine and a half months instead of 10 months, right? We can give two weeks of savings back to an owner. So if you can think about things like that to bring value, those coordination items is what I would call them. And that's what the roof trains say, utility guys got it to five foot, and and uh, you know, the downspouts uh uh or the roof drains themselves. The plumber says he's got it to five foot, but nobody says I've got the connection one to the other, right? And uh and are those even actually aligned from the civil drawings to the plumbing drawings, um, size the same, yeah, sized appropriately, right? Those are things that you know we try to look at and figure out, but there we've got a lot going on too, and we don't catch everything. And so when we've got a trade partner that can help us kind of hit fast forward on a few things, you bet. And we know we can we've developed a relationship when we trust the information they're telling us versus they're just trying to give us a sales job, yeah, right. That that provides a lot of value to us as well. But you've always got to be mindful of cost, right? So that's one of the things too is like I've got companies that can bring a huge value in relating to technical knowledge and the people that they'll bring to a meeting and do all that, but their cost isn't in line with with what the market is is saying. And there's always a balance there, right? Oh, yeah. But what some of our best trade partners can do is help me understand the difference between maybe what market's telling me the cost should be and why your cost is here. And that's that's where I see a lot of our trade partners fall down, is they can't tell me why it's different. It's it's not that they say it like this, but it's kind of just, well, we're just better, we'll do a better job. Well, that that that's not a line I can take to my owner to justify because a lot of times I don't have to carry the load number if I can help the owner understand that they didn't actually have a complete scope, or it's actually going to take three weeks longer with them and their plan for production than it is with this guy. And so that's actually going to cost me to charge you more because I'm going to be on the job site longer, right? So, how can you tell me, help me to understand and not lower your number, but understand what are the things within your number that may look your number look more expensive on day one, but on day two, after evaluation, we can actually kind of, when we're leveling things out, the term we use when we're evaluating trade partner bids, we want to make sure your scope is apples to apples. Well, what is scope? Well, it's it's the actual pipe in the ground, right? But it's also your schedule, your production, your manpower, financial stability, right? Your ability to um, you know, pass project performance and experience with similar type projects, right? That's all the things that we're looking, looking for and have to evaluate. And sometimes we've got good information to evaluate it from, and sometimes all we've got to go is is a number. Um, I would tell you as a trade partner, and it's one of the things I've experienced more here in Northwest Arkansas than I did in Dallas. Even if a GC has a bid form they want you to fill out, fill that form out, do the best that you can, attach your proposal on your company letterhead, detailing exactly what you're doing. That is so invaluable to us because if only thing I have to judge you on is a number, yeah, well, then it's just left to me to decide. Um, but if you can help me understand your approach and the value you bring to the project, then that that's a differentiator, particularly in here in this market. And it doesn't, it's not a high bar. Um telling me exactly what you have and what you don't have, that can be, you know, really, really advantageous.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Dude, what a great point to bring up, seriously, because we have spent a lot of time on our proposal sheet over the years and just making it a little bit better. And we get a little bit of feedback out of nowhere and be like, you know what? You're right. Why is this like that? Okay. And always, always trying to recurringly make it more clear, more transparent for our customers, but also protect and whatever we need to do for the subcontractor side. But yeah, bid form, you get these bid packages. Guys, take the time and read the dang thing. Like there's somebody from uh Baxter's team that is sitting in there, and that is their job to go through this plan for plan, print for print, bring all of the utility notes over, the MEP notes over, and bid you a tailored package. Just read it for the love of God. You're gonna have so much more detailed information to share with that estimator that's ahead of that project. But not only that, don't just fill in the numbers exactly. And if you don't have a nice proposal like uh on the civil space, we can handle earthwork, water, sewer, storm drain, roof drains, we can handle a whole bunch of different types of scopes. And we have very clearly detailed out, hey, here's this scope and water. This is what we're covering with our quantities, so it's clearly known to you. You they don't anytime you leave these guys to assume they're managing risk. Let's go back to that. So if it smells, feels risky, and I got my safe guy over here that I've done business with, I know for a fact I'm not gonna hear anything about it, we're going over here. But hey, whoa, this guy provided me an extremely detailed and thorough proposal. I'm gonna give this guy a callback and I'm going to what's called D scope him and to ensure that he's got all my 100% on my bid packages. Well, he even added an ad alternate with a little bit of pricing to save me some money here. I know you guys take that as mind-blowing because I mean, a lot of times it's it's hard enough just to get them to fill the bid package out.

Proposals, Bid Forms, And Clarity

SPEAKER_01 36:42

It is. And, you know, you gotta keep in mind too, especially when we're doing construction manager at risk work, I have to sell my team on why we should pick you. And then we also have to sell an owner. So my team may be convinced, but we also have to be able to share that with the owner. So just, you know, it really boils down to communication, right? And that's what my I kind of look at uh my job as the spoke of a wheel, or sorry, the hub of a wheel. We got all these different spokes coming in from the architect, the engineer, MEP, civil, structural, my superintendent, my project manager, the estimators that are that are working for me, all of our trade partners that are coming into that, you know, our leadership, and how do I take all of that information and instead of blowing things up, compile it in a way that everybody, everything they've asked for, they've received. And if they haven't received it, it's been communicated to them why it's not included and they know it versus finding out six months later, oh, well, that guy be'd out. Well, that's not a good conversation to have. You know, it's all about set setting expectations and helping helping everybody to understand nobody probably is ever going to get everything they want on a project. Even an owner, they're gonna have to make compromises probably because of budget, right? An architect, probably the same reason there because of budget. Uh trade partners maybe not get the margin that they they wanted, but because they needed they needed to be aggressive to get the project, but to cover all the scope appropriately, you know, and you know, using using the right pipe. You know, and uh, you know, I this I just made me think of a story in a in our fountain world, right? We use a lot of schedule 80 pipe and it had a ton of glue fittings. And the cost of a glue fitting on schedule 80 pipe for like eight, 10, 12-inch pipe, you know like you could be talking a thousand dollars plus of fitting, yeah, right? You got one shot at that point, right? And uh so you got some contingency in there if you're doing that, because you're gonna you're gonna redo a few joints probably pressure testing because it's hard to get a glue joint right-sized pipe. But uh, you're wondering how some of these guys are just smoking you on price. And I was after it became a GC, I was out on uh walking a job site for another one of our divisions, and they're putting in a large-scale fountain. And I saw the pool company that got hired to do the work out there with a propane torch heating up this Schedule 80 pipe to get it around this arc, you know. It is like, I know I would have had bid that with three or four 45s in the 90s to get us over there. It's like, that's 10 grand worth of labor materials that they're not covering. But uh, you know, just communicate, you know, that's what it really boils down to at the end of the day. Um, a lot of the way I look at it, there's a lot of people that know how to build. I'm not one of them. I know how to pull a lot of information together in a way and communicate it so we're checking all the boxes and covering risk and getting all the scope included, right? We may be having 1,500, 2,000 line items of scope on an overall project. And so when we do write that trade package, we've made our best judgment on how we need to get all of those line items covered. We have to assign them to someone, right? And some of them we do ourselves, but not a lot of them, right? So mostly it's subcontracted, but somebody's got to do it. And so if I've asked the utility guys to pick up the downspout connections, right, and you exclude it, well, I've got a gap that I've got to figure out how to fill, right? Yeah, and maybe you're not comfortable with it, or maybe on this particular project, it's a bad idea. Pick up the phone, let's have a conversation. I'm never trying to dictate scope, right? But I do have a responsibility to my company and to our owners, our customers to deliver all of the scope to the project, right? So I've got to find a way to do it. And so sometimes, you know, there's old Arkansas scene, right? There's more than one way to skin a cat. That's right. So So let's just figure out another way. But if you communicate early to me about this, that, or the other, or even scope you see is assigned maybe to the plumber that you think would be better for you guys to pick up, call me. Talk to me. Hey, let's talk about it because you're probably right. I'm probably not. We're all going to be flexible, right? We need to be flexible instead of rigid, solve problems, work together doing it.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

The other thing I want to say is when Baxter said earlier, reach out and he's telling you, call me, have a conversation. That doesn't mean just call one time and say you didn't call me back. That means, hey, called, send a text message. Hey, this is what this is in reference to. Hey, send an email, follow up. Here's a snippet of the prints, and this is what I was calling you about when it adds your convenience. It, dude, we're busy. Like you guys are busy, we're all busy. But if these guys up here putting these massive, and and Baldwin and Shell does a lot of schoolwork and does a lot of public work, these are massive line items, scopes, like, and so if they're giving you the opportunity and they're reaching out, don't make it difficult on them. You know what I mean? But communicate, not just, well, I called you back at one time. Man, they're busy. We're all busy. Communicate effectively. Don't just communication's two ways, right? So you got to listen and explain.

Communication, Feedback, And Fit

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Well, I flip that around too. I think agreed. I do my best. Again, I'm not perfect at it. Um, maybe salespeople, I don't necessarily always call back, uh, selling the latest greatest software. But yeah, when when trade partners are calling us, I mean, we all can't always give them all the information. We may not have bought out of scope and we can't let them know whether whether they're how their number was. Yeah. That's not you know, not the world that we live in on negotiated projects, but let's let's make sure that we're all working together. I owe you if you guys took the time to put a bid together for me, I at least owe you some feedback. Yeah, if we don't, I mean, if you got the job, right? You got the feedback. But if you don't get the job, yeah, you know, why why not? You know, is it price? Is it something else? And you know, I I'm more than happy to have a conversation with somebody. A lot of people are only looking were they the low number or not. And if that's all you're looking for, that's all I'm gonna give you because I've got to manage my time. Yeah, but at the same point in time, if you want to sit down and have a conversation of how can we be better? Yeah, what could we have done differently that would have helped us to have been selected for this project? Like, let's have a conversation. Because I have been on the trade partner side. You know, I spent essentially half of my career was on the trade partner side before I moved into the GC world. I've felt what it feels like to call a GC over and over and over and never get a phone call back. Well, what they didn't realize is I was the guy who was gonna keep calling until they finally gave me the feedback. There you go. But right, it still took a lot of time and energy. It does. And you know, nobody's gonna win every project, but let's at least talk and communicate. And again, how can we all be better and and set you up better for the next one?

SPEAKER_00 44:01

I think also, too, to slide mention here, we just slid right over how important scheduling is. And, you know, these guys are sitting there constantly just obsessing over their price. But if there's a way that your company can perform a said scope item that doesn't cost any more in reduced time in your schedule, that's interest out of off of that the owner doesn't have to pay. That's a whole lot of overhead and expenses for a whole entire month that you guys may not have to be out there, whatever the schedule creation may be. But have that communicate, man, I worked over there two years ago and I know that manhole is there, or whatever the case may be, like provide that to you guys because time is literal money. Absolutely. And and the schedule is just as important as your freaking price. And if it's a long, a elongated, a quarter long job, anything more than that, you better, they're gonna make you provide a schedule. But seriously, send a schedule with that updated, I'm sorry, broken out um proposal. Because if you can not only just sell your price, but here's how fast we're gonna do it, here's what we're gonna uphold ourselves, here's what's been in the job, and give you that transparency, you're gonna be like, dang, dude, this guy is like, hey, I can just plug this right in. Does this make sense? It does. Boom. There's a job.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Well, right. And I think on a lot of our negotiated projects, we should do it on all of our negotiated projects, is we should be sending out our preliminary schedule. But again, provide us feedback. You know, you see in that schedule that we're 10 days faster than it should be, have that conversation. Give us the why, right? Uh, we're gonna listen because if we're 10 days late delivering the project, well, that's not good for us either. Um, you know, and you know, we kind of have to set aside hard-bid situations because that kind of is what it is, and the owners really just focused on on cost when they choose to deliver a project that way. But on these other projects, you know, it should be a two-way street, it should be a conversation. Um now you may come back and say, Oh, you you're 10 days short on your schedule. We may come back and say, No, we we have it has to be done, and this is the reason because there's a drop-off point for the project. And so what that means for you is you've got to include the overtime or the weekends to meet that schedule, right? So there always needs to be a conversation about that. Um, you know, but kind of going back to if you're providing this type of information, but it's not being received by the contractor that you're sending it to, know that they're not valuing that information. So don't waste your time either preparing that information for that contractor or possibly even bidding that contractor because you know they're only really focused on on price. Um, and so uh there's a time and a place for that, but you know, all these things like to do all that stuff, to think of here's a few, four or five things below the line to save you guys some money. Well, that takes time and effort on your side as well to figure those things out. It's not just, you know, hey, here we go, shoot for the hip. And and you know, it's to it's it's literal time. I because I face that, you know, I'd have arguments when we were doing the fountain work with with with our owners, like, well, let's price it this way and this way. You have to choose one. Like, we don't have the time to to actually meet that deadline and do it both ways because you know, we're actually having to figure out the engineering and then the materials that go with the engineering. So you have to choose one. Like I remember even just getting in an argument and leaving the office for a period of time, right? It was so you got so heated about it. But like I know you guys face that too. So my job is always to ask for help, but I need to receive that help and value that. So if I'm not valuing that, then why should you give it to me? That's right. So that's just disrespect, you know, if I'm not doing that. So you guys work hard. I want to respect the the time that you're putting in and the efforts that you're putting in. Again, it doesn't mean every thing that time you do it's gonna work out, but you you should be able to pick up on is this guy actually, you know, liking what I'm doing, and that we just haven't found that right opportunity yet, and we just got to keep working at it, or is he taking my information and using it with somebody else or that sort of thing?

SPEAKER_00 48:36

You know that lights me up faster than anything, man.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

God bless. This is some great VE ideas. Let me share those with everybody, right? I mean, no, that should be your competitive management and uh give you a heads up on a project.

Schedule As A Competitive Edge

SPEAKER_00 48:51

The amount of time that we spend in VE and additional options to ensure that we do have a competitive edge. We've looked at it, we've shown you guys, and then next thing you know, your VE options getting done by somebody across town, and you're like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

Bring in the email that everybody's be blind carbon copied on it. There you go. Everybody priced these things, and you're like, that's my list.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

Yeah, dude, I provided you that information.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

And it happens to us too, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:20

Just know that it's not only you guys, but I really appreciate, dude, seriously, you being willing for me to challenge you a little bit and uh and have this conversation because it's what it takes. This is what it takes for these guys. It's going to be invaluable, the some of the comments that you've had. But I wanted to give some time here. Talk about Baldwin Shell specifically. Um, you made mention that you'd be looking for, I don't know, I'll let you kind of go off their estimators and looking for some team members in the pre-contract um side of pre-construction side of things. So by all means, highlight that.

SPEAKER_01 49:57

Sure. Well, in Baldwin Shell, we've been around a long time. We're actually celebrating 80 years of uh uh in business. Um we're uh an Arkansas contractor. Um we've been serving uh Northwest Arkansas for over 50 years. I think it last year we celebrated 50 years since our first project completion in Northwest Arkansas. Um it was the uh Gravit Memorial Hospital, I believe, um, building that thing. Uh and uh we uh you know we've been here a while. We've had an office in northwest Arkansas for over 30 years. So we were here, you know, well before things really started taking off. But uh, you know, so you know, we're we we value we value Arkansas. Right. Um we do have an office. We have offices here in Springdale is where we're offices here, we're headquartered in Little Rock. Uh we have uh office in Jonesboro and of uh also in Memphis. Really? Uh so you know we we span this region and we've worked all over the the southeast um uh with various projects and owners. But uh um, you know, commercial construction is what we do. Um we do everything from uh we're building a Freddy's frozen custard.

SPEAKER_00 51:10

Uh missed out on that one.

SPEAKER_01 51:14

I'm Scotty Gish. Sorry. Uh so you know, building that uh we just completed the whole health institute here in Northwest Arkansas uh uh not too long ago. So, you know, what it runs the scale. Uh we've got uh uh around 200, 250 employees. Uh and uh we we serve that commercial market, but also industrial sector with an industrial division. Uh and we also have self-performed steel erection capabilities, so we do quite a bit of that. Um and uh, you know, we're just uh you know, it's a great state, it's a great place to be in, and serving that. We do a ton of educational facilities, K-12 and and and higher ed uh things here locally. We've done a lot of work for for Springdale schools. We're working for Fayetteville Public Schools right now, and we're building Fire Station Rogers Fire Station 10. Number four.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

Fire ass. We've been on a couple of them.

Respecting VE And Partner Trust

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Yeah, so uh, you know, we you know, we're helping the communities that we live in continue to grow and and we're excited about that. Uh yeah, we are hiring uh for pre-construction positions, you know, pretty much anything. Uh you can imagine right now that with a role estimator, senior estimator, pre-construction manager, uh, we're looking to fill those roles. But, you know, uh kind of in the spirit of the conversation, we're not looking for people that just want to take numbers and turn it around to an owner and put our markups on them. Uh, we're looking for people that really want to do things a different way, a better way, uh, helping helping everybody do a better quality job in the field and perform. Um, you know, I I want my superintendents and project managers to to to not fight over money. That's right. Like, let's go figure out the sequencing and and how to put all this together. Um, and uh, you know, that's it's one of the things that makes me the happiest is when you get feedback from a project manager or a superintendent that with the work that we did in pre-con, we alleviated a problem. Um the flip side is the things I hate to hear is when when things go wrong, and I I think back like we could have we could have fixed that, yeah. We could have resolved that in pre-con. And so uh, yeah, we're looking for people that are, you know, trustworthy, you know, want to take ownership of what they're doing. They want to make everybody around them better. Um, you know, and they want to make themselves better. Uh Patrick Langioni talks about hungry, humble, smart. I'm a kinesiology major. Um, the Lord's bless me, and I'm able to do what I do today. But, you know, it's not because I learned a lot about construction in in high school or college. I grew up on a farm, you know, and kind of learned that work ethic from my from my dad. Uh, but at the same point in time, uh, always felt like every day I can be a little just a little bit better and learn something. And uh we're looking for people that want to want to do the same thing and and come and grow with us.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

Northwest, Arkansas is beautiful too. If you uh if you don't know of us, we have a very we have a I would say mini boom. You can't call it like to a DFW. There for a minute, a couple of years ago. It was roaring and ripping. It's definitely simmered, but uh, I think we're fixing to go through another little bit of a roar and a rip here infrastructure-wise, especially in in my world as you need water and sewer for people. I've been telling them for 20 years. I don't know. I uh I don't know what's uh but yeah, apparently we keep hitting these capacity issues. And as you guys may have seen, there is some private funding helping capacity issues all across this area, but unbelievable place to raise your family. Um great schools, um, private schools, public schools, all of them cost uh cost of living is lower than you would expect. I I would believe it's definitely raised since I've been here. But uh man, Northwest Arkansas is just an unbelievable place.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

And we have a lot of the amenities that the big cities the um the rhythm of the big cities. Yeah, there was definitely a pulse to how things happened in Dallas, and uh it's just not as heavy here. And it for the people living here, it may feel heavy, but if you've been in Dallas, come here, it's just it's just not the same. And that's one of the things we've enjoyed most about getting back. I grew up in the country outside of a town of 13,000. My wife grew up in the country outside of a town of 600, and then we're living in Dallas, you know, when it was five million, six million people, seven million people. It just never felt like home. And and uh yeah, it's a great place to raise a family. Yeah, take some of that stress and pressure off of raising a family, being able to get outside into the outdoors and not just into the urban jungle.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

That's right. No, I grew up in Toronto, man. So I know all about it. And I was just back there over Christmas and boondocked in a motor coach on the side of the curb in the middle of Toronto in a snowstorm. So um, no, man, when I go back, immediately I'm like, Lord, I love I-49. It runs through northwest Arkansas. This ain't nothing. And get me back. But uh no, I know exactly what you're saying. So um, how do they need to find you if maybe they do have interest in um I said all that for you guys that are listening anywhere in the country? Like, this is a great place to move. We have 40 people a day, verified moving into our two little counties for you could say it's starting to really venture into the other two counties. But um, man, how do they get a hold of you if if it's something that they want to do?

SPEAKER_01 56:54

Sure. Yeah. I mean, email is pretty easy. Behordon at Baldwinshell.com, or you can find me. I don't think there's too many Baxter Hordons on on LinkedIn, so you can find me pretty, pretty easily there and love to connect with people. I love seeing different perspectives and things and uh and just learning from all those around me.

SPEAKER_00 57:12

Blue collar performance marketing's passion is to bring attention to the honest work done in blue-collar industries through effective results-driven marketing tactics. They specialize in comprehensive digital marketing services from paid advertising on Google and Facebook to website development and content strategy. I started working with Ike and the team earlier this year, and they've had a huge impact on our specific marketing campaign and trajectory of our overall company. Their expertise in digital ad management, website development, social media, and overall marketing strategy has been an absolute game changer for our sales and marketing at SciCon. If you're looking to work with a marketing team who does what they say, does it well, and is always looking for ways to help your company grow, book a discovery call with Ike by going to bcperformancemarketing.com backslash BCB podcast, or click the link in the show notes slash description below. Thanks, guys. Dude, one last question for you. I ask everybody on the show, man. Uh, what's the takeaway for these blue-collar subcontractors that are sitting out there just kind of stuck in the mud, man, mentally, physically, emotionally. It could be any, but uh piece of advice for them.

Baldwin Shell Overview And Roles

SPEAKER_01 58:23

Yeah, having done some of this learning myself for the last few years, take care of yourself. Um, take care of your family. Um, you know, job's important. And I know as a man, it's one of those things that it's tough for me to uh stop down and think about uh well, I'm doing this job, I'm doing this work to take care of my family, but sometimes we allow that to go a little too far and uh don't give them the time and attention that they need. So make sure you're doing that. Um, you know, talked we've talked a lot about value here. You know, if you're not working for a company that values you as an individual, um, you know, there's in our world, there's plenty of places to go find a company that does value you. And honestly, that could mean you take a pay cut, but the quality of life you get in return um is absolutely worth it. And uh, you know, that's one of the decisions we made in moving back to to Northwest Arkansas. And, you know, it I had a great place. I worked at a great company and great career, and uh uh and they valued me there. I don't want to misconstrue that, but some of the things that uh we need to do as a family and that I was all I was allowing, you know, to kind of take my time and attention from uh getting back here has been been beneficial to us doing that, and we're thankful and grateful to God for that, dude.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

For sure, dude. I uh no, it's glad to have you. And we've built a relationship here over the last year. We've had some lunches and did some work that really didn't work out. And guess what, guys? He's still game. So it's like, oh it didn't work out for me. Yeah, exactly. So uh at the same time, uh, that's probably another key takeaway. Don't get so caught up in every individual job. There's many of them. Play the long game. You have to play the long game. It's not, oh, this one job. No, there's 50 of them that we've got to bid this year, you know, you or uh us, or there's so many coming down the pipe and be concentrated on the horizon, not what's at your feed. And uh from there, my dude, I can't thank you enough for your time allowing me to challenge you a little bit. I think today's episode is gonna help a lot of guys with some insight. There's not many GCs, so we'd sit down with a ditch digger in front of a microphone and how do we improve what we're doing? They will love that shot. Guys, uh, I hope your 2026 is absolutely kicking off and uh the way you want it to. And if it's not, change something. Nothing changes if nothing changes. You guys be safe out there and it's Until next time, we will see you then. If you've enjoyed this episode, be sure to give it a like, share it with the fellas, check out our website to send us any questions and comments about your experience in the blue collar business. Who do you want to hear from? Send them our way, and we'll do our best to answer any questions you may have. Till next time, guys.