Ep. 89 - Damage Prevention Truths with CGA Contractor Experts

Utility strikes are more than just a production delay; they are a massive financial liability and a significant threat to crew safety. For years, the people actually doing the digging were left out of the policy-making rooms, resulting in a system where locators and excavators often operate at odds. We sit down at the Common Ground Alliance (CGA) conference to discuss how the "boots on the ground" are finally taking a seat at the table to overhaul damage prevention.

We get into the technical and tactical substance of what is actually happening in the trenches with John Fluharty, Chase Lapcinski, and Brent Hunziker. This conversation covers the high failure rates of current locate software, the necessity of "safe harbor agreements" for sharing utility mapping, and why the industry is pushing for specific line items for potholing in civil contracts. We also explore the unique role of DPAC in lobbying for better legislation and why the "missing middle" of communication between owners and contractors is causing 40 distinct points of failure on a single job site.

The unglamorous truth is that our industry currently operates more on risk transfer than actual safety, with many utilities prioritizing low-bid locators over quality results. You will walk away from this episode with a clear understanding of the legal and financial traps inherent in the 811 system and a roadmap for how to document your work to avoid five-figure bills years after a project is completed.

If you care about crew safety, civil infrastructure, and protecting your bottom line from utility damages, you’ll get a lot from this. Please Subscribe and Share to help us get this message to more contractors across the country. What is the biggest hurdle you face when trying to get an accurate utility locate in your state?

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:09

Hey guys, welcome to the Blue Collar Business Podcast where we discuss the realest, rawest, most relevant stories and strategies behind building every corner of a blue collar business. I'm your host, Ty Kirby, and I want to help you what it took me, trial and error, and a whole lot of money to learn. The information that no one in this industry is willing to share. Whether you're under that shade tree or have your hard hat on, let's expand your toolbox.

Contractors At The 811 Table

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Guys, welcome back to another episode of the Blue Collar Business Podcast. Brought to you and sponsored by Pay Dird Support. Those guys over there have been wonderful when it comes to a sales and estimating takeoff, quantification, modeling, anything you might need in the civil space, they're there to be a team member for you. If you have an estimator that is trying to build confidence and he's getting through a flow, and then you've got this great large opportunity, set kick it over to Pay Dird. I promise you, we use them in-house at Sycon on occasion for those larger projects that we want to make sure we have great takeoff and quantification entering into the project with. Check out paydirdsupport.com, Ben Bruni and his team over there. Thank you guys so much. Guys, we are continuing here at CGA conference. This is episode number two. I have another wonderful pan panel in front of me. Um, we are all about 811 here. CGA is Common Ground Alliance. I will uh preface that. We're gonna say CGA a bunch, we're meaning CGA. You gentlemen can speak more on it, but basically that's that buffer zone for 811, and they manage what 811 policy procedure, and there's committees, and these fine gentlemen are actually from the contractor side of things, which I'm actually very excited about because I've talked to more, you know, utility locators here, uh, more than I have contractors, and that's exactly why this episode is going to resound so well with you guys. These are contractors that have also understand the importance of damage strikes, utility strikes, uh, working with the facilities and the local utilities. These gentlemen are in the trenches, in the trades, have crews underneath them, rocking and rolling every day. Um, and so, furthermore, we'll start down there, Mr. Brent Hunziger, by God, Whitaker Construction, correct sir. Yep. Interesting story there, too. I'm excited to get into. Uh, we have John Flew Hardy with Troy Construction and the beautiful CGA jacket. Let's just take a moment. It's wonderful. If you're not watching, uh, you can get over on YouTube or Spotify and watch that. Uh, and then one uh one other gentleman down here on the very end with me, looking fly in a suit jacket as well. Uh Chase Lepsinski. Nailed that one. Okay. Coming more from the broadband side of things. And uh, gentlemen, number one, thank you. Seriously, for your time. It's the message that we're trying to convey here is so important, but it's not talked about. There needs to be more people sitting down and having a conversation and going, number one, what's in utility strike? You know, most of our outside public view don't even know this is an issue. Um, Mr. Brandt, Whitaker, tell us a little bit about that, how you got involved with CGA and why you're here, and we're gonna kind of walk through, and I'm excited.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

All right, so years ago, uh started out the Utah basically uh we were looking to change some legislation in Blue State. There are one call systems. So that was a big part of it. Um as we get continuing down that row, recognize that you know you could change it locally or you can go even higher. CGA is is kind of the the leader in the damage prevention. Um to be able to make changes, you've got to go to the top. So you go to CGA, you eventually get in with it. Uh AGC sponsored me into the CGA. John kind of took me under his wing, helped me out a lot getting me to to know PC and that work. Um, but basically it was just because you wanted to make change, and we have to do it at the contractor's level. We have to have contractors involved to do that. Um there's there's not enough of us that get involved with legislation and the the federal side of things to be able to make that change.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

It's literally, I I I made a post this morning. I think contractors don't even realize that there's somebody that they can reach out to regionally, locally. You know, I didn't until I really got involved with you guys, but didn't realize there was this regional folks, and there's a local. So, but yes, exact. There there needs to be change, there needs to be correction on the utility locating side of the of the things, but dang sure for our uh for our crews and our communities out there, and I appreciate you literally joining the fight. John, I have a feeling you're a lot of the same lines.

SPEAKER_04 4:38

So I had an interesting start in this. Uh it's about nine years ago, I think it was. We were as an industry fighting uh what was the gold shovel standard, which we felt was a really poor approach to damage prevention. So I came to CGA and kind of got pushed into it uh through that that kind of a war with gold shovel, to be quite frank with you. Um now that was actually acquired by CGA years later and is the damage prevention institute re-granded as that, and one of the most successful programs that the CGA has had. Uh, but at the time, the excavators were not involved enough in CGA. We had like uh it was like 25 members or something, and at the time we had like a hundred dollar individual fee, and so all the excavators were paying like a hundred bucks to belong. So we had zero influence. Yeah, yet honestly, I I tell this story. We as excavators know what happened. I joke that we may lie uh about what happened, but the reality is we know what happened, right? It is our damage shit. We know who Ring You did what. And so um literally my second meeting here, I was on the board, and they they drugged me in because the statements I'd made in some of the committee meetings and the other things I was involved in. I was uh, and then I realized that our representative for the excavators had not attended a meeting for five years. Why? And so I was like, we got to get in the middle of this. And I was challenged by a guy who's who's now the the uh COO of Center Point Energy, Jesus Soto, great guy on the board at the time. He he worked for PG ⁇ E at that time. He said, John, you've got to get the excavators here. We gotta bring the excavators to the table. So I went with Sarah around to all the construction excavator association type meetings. Uh now the end of the story is today. I think we have 1,200 members that are excavators. And uh I served my term as the excavator rep. And then I'm at an at-large position, and uh Chase is the excavator rep now uh for for the uh CGA poll.

Fixing Late Locates With Better Data

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Well that leads perfectly because it's cool to have no shot here, gentlemen, but a little younger face on on the end of the table with me. Uh because I mean, honestly, we talked about it just momentarily, but you look around, there's not really as many younger faces, and this trade is fixing to really swap over um not just trade, but literally construction in general. So, Chase, talk about a little bit where you come from and how you got involved.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Yeah, so second generation. Uh, my dad started the company. I've been involved as most family businesses since I was way too young. Uh, but really enjoy it. And, you know, going to CGA started, you know, a handful of years ago. And really, honestly, um, being transparent was really because of you know the delays and everything that we're seeing in the fields uh from the the accuracy or just lack of locates and other stuff, on top of wanting to learn more. It's almost uh learned by osmosis from just being here. Uh all the different technology is ever ever changing. Um and truly, I also feel it's a really great organization because you have all the stakeholders uh in the same room. Wow. So, I mean that that's how you can actually get change done. Instead of just being a big group of excavators or road builders or whomever, um, like there's some significant stuff getting done, best practices. There's a lot of tools for um the industry, for the excavators themselves, and and for locators and whatnot. Um but truly that was kind of the reason, just the frustration with with what we're seeing, how our crews are uh not only uh just the increased risk that they face every day because of some of this stuff, um, but the the downtime, the you know, the loss of production.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

We all know about that downtime, that's our worst fear on any of our crews. And uh, you know, I was talking with the panel last night, and um what was the biggest constraint uh before I go there? What what are you guys seeing? You you kind of hinted around about it, and you're the guy that we're all staring here looking at. You represent us. And so what what are you seeing coming that you are involved with the change? And I would love to hear your your uh add on this here, John, as well, since you've had so much time there. What's coming? Well, I understand we're getting excavators to the table. Well, this hopefully is going to help. I want I I want to be able to bring awareness to this. Hey, there is a seat at this table, it's open for you. You just don't even know about it yet. They're fixing to. But what's coming? What do you see is changing from the CGA perspective for those delays, for those? And I and I'll preface this with we had a great conversation last night on the utility side of things, they are trying. The uh Scott or Brown, man, really opened my eyes up. Hey, we're sharing maps with these guys now. And I'm like, I would I would fall over dead if a locator shared a map with me, you know. But what are some of those things along those lines that are are coming for us, you think?

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Well, I guess education itself, uh just in general. So it, you know, it'd be easy for me to sit up here and just, you know, blame, blame, blame. But I think first, you know, the excavator side, we really need to understand how we help and hurt the the problem itself. Uh, and what I mean by that, so like when we have late locates or inaccurate locates, the reality is um people lose confidence in the system. So then they start working um their own angle to protect, you know, their production and other stuff, meaning maybe they're calling in too many locates or uh not right sizing the locates. So from the excavator perspective, we really need to own that, you know, and understand that it's uh even though as of today there's no cost to us to call that in, which is inaccurate in itself. There's you know, you might have a ticket management system or the cost for that person to actually call it in on top of all the white line and everything else that goes involved with that. So I think changing that mindset a little bit and and educating the the excavator sides on what they truly own in this, what their fees is, yeah, uh, and just how the whole system works together. And you know, if we all sit here and blame and point, it's uh it's never gonna get addressed. So we don't necessarily maybe have uh a late locate issue, we have a silent late locate issue. Sure. Mean like, so if we're not um calling in uh or reporting the no-shows or reloads or anything like that, there is no record. There that like the problem doesn't exist. So we need to get the excavator community out there on really understanding what the best practices are so that we have when when CGA and other groups are um are are working on fixing this, we have the right record because prior, and John can allude to this um or expand on this, uh you know, prior to the excavators truly getting involved, like we didn't have that record. We didn't have the data would show that there isn't an issue. Exactly. And and I would say, and and John may argue with me, but uh I I would say that we're still we still don't have a great record on on what's truly happening out in the fire.

Why Utilities Keep Choosing Cheap Locates

SPEAKER_02 13:02

No, I agree. Like, there's a I completely agree with everything you said. We as excavators have to do a better job. I can 100% lay blame right here on calling five locates at a time, no white paint down years ago. You know what I mean? I have especially in the last little bit really kind of honed in on my guys. I'm like, hey, what are we doing with locates? Talk to me about this process. Is super calling in? Who's painting it? Are we being specific about hey, are we installing a hydrant off this existing main, or hey, why'd you call in both sides of the road? There's like a ton of fiber over there. That dude just lost an hour to his entire day, you know, and those things that we're not thinking about at all. Um, you know, you had mentioned no shows or reloads. I have no idea what that is. Like, and I know this is so different state per state, right? And I think that's uh where we've got to get involved locally and regionally, but at the same time, Arkansas's behind the times, like for real. From some of the things that I have been hearing mentioned, I'm like, what do you mean they do that? You know, hey, I can other than calling for a second request, you know, I've got so many different times. Second requests, second requests. Second request.

SPEAKER_04 14:13

I was talking to a contractor yesterday who's doing a broadband installation in Arkansas. He's breaking 10 water lines a day, average. Okay. The water company will has spent$27,000 on materials. It will not work on a better locate. Yeah. They so that the the dysfunction, the financial analysis and the dysfunction of that is what leads to a lot of our problems. We see it at the utilities, you know, they're going for super low bid on locate, and then all of a sudden they they fire that person, they get a good locator in, their incidence will go from like 28 a month to two, and then all of a sudden they start pinching the locator again. It's like you're saving hundreds of thousands of dollars on the repair bill, and you can't see through that to not to leave the locator alone. It's doing a great job, yeah, compared to the one you had before, and no one, no one can appreciate that. Uh, I I really think when you start talking about you know the the big drivers, the the because of the way the utilities are set up, especially, they're silo. So the locator guy, if he's spending 10% more but saving 80% of the budget on the repair side, he doesn't get a bonus. He gets slapped for spending too much money. The dude that really did nothing, meaning the repair guy's budget, which is not driven by repairs, it's driven by price, right? He gets the bonus because he's killing it. Well, he did nothing, you know, and so getting that A plus B plus C plus D equals a number formula to be the uh the bar that we're trying to get to is what is what needs to happen on the financial side. Um, and and it's really hard. I uh it you know, the one thing I learned a long time ago about utilities is they they really do, they're so siloed out. You know, you're the vice president of engineering. So what's your budget? Engineering. What are you trying to do? Beat your budget, right? It gets your bonus. Vice president of construction, vice president of government relations, right? You're you're in your spot in that. And and it's you know, and that's not picking on that company. That is the way that industry operates.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

It it's the still the good old boy system. A lot of these municipalities, a lot of them. You get outside of any type of work in here, just hit it, we'll fix it, send you the bail. Well, no, I'm trying to prevent that. I uh not only do I not want to hit your utility, I've got guys standing next to that utility. What about the safety of it? And and Brent, you're all about the gas, and that was that's where I was going with that.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Yeah, I mean it's all downtime. It doesn't matter if it's marked or unmarked, we don't want to hit it. That's just part of it. Um, you've got the safety side of that. What if it's powerline? What if it is gas light? I mean, you you see it on the news, these explosions on the homes and unmarked, marked, whatever it may be. What really has to happen because that'll change on the contract life actually. Not only for the loyators, but for the wick construction. If uh if the owner operators were designing and been creating these jobs, then we go out to build them, they have line items for potholing. If they really do that, I mean you think about the millions of dollars that are spent every year on damages that didn't have to happen. You could put it into a contract, say, hey, go out and pothole the lines, we'll pay you to pothole them while you're installing that water line, while you're installing that gas line. That's the change that has to happen. Pay the locate. It's like John's mentioned. You know, if you're gonna go with the cheap, you're gonna get bad locate. You're gonna have damages, it's gonna cost you in the long run of your car. So I it there's a lot of change that has to happen from not only the owner operators, the contractors, we've got to do better. Yes, we've got to follow the rules. You mentioned, you know, each state's different. There is not one state out of all of them that has anything the same on blue stake laws. Absolutely. They're on one-file laws, they're all different. So it's it's it's crazy to think that we can get together on everything and have all these standards. But when it comes to a one-file system, none of them are the same. You might have a two-day ticket window or a 10-day ticket window or a 20-day ticket window. And there is certain things that have to be different due to weather and conditions, but that's part of it. But you can still have something that says, hey, this is where it's at. That's what CGA is working towards. It's great that there is one big system for everything that beats everything. So well, you know, oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 18:25

No, I I think one of the things I want to go back on in the history that's important is one of the big mistakes we did as excavators, and we fixed this about five years ago, is we let the owners pit the excavators versus the locators. Right. And guess what? They work with the same person we did. And, you know, my dad had a saying he who has the gold rules, and the people that have the gold need to start ruling a little better on these issues. Working with the excavators or the locators, that happened both with the here at CGA and uh and at the Power Communication Contractors Association, by spending time with them, we really understood the plight of them and how difficult a situation they were put in. I will tell you today, this locator paper that they produced on Nolka.org is one of the best documents in the industry right now. And I'll tell you another part of this. The excavation, I think this is something we all agree on. The excavation community is in lockstep with the locators on this issue. We agree with their findings, and and and right now everybody agrees with this, but at some point in time down the road, it's gonna start costing the owners money to comply with the request of that paper. That's when it's gonna go the other way. I will tell you this though, the excavators are not gonna hide from this. We need the locate community to be propped up, have good contracts, have good intent, and do their job as professionals, not as a commodity market.

Mapping, Safe Harbor, And Potholing Plans

SPEAKER_02 19:53

You know, contractors shall veal verify, right? We all love that. Um that's gotta go away. I love that. Cut us a contract, let us go potthole. Hey, engineers, like engineers, we got to get the civils. I cannot stand going out there and digging up a existing water main that he swore up and down on that profile with six foot and it's ten foot deep, and you've got to get boxes there and you've got and just literally redo the entire job of just means and methods of how we're gonna install our job, right? I cannot stand that. But at the same time, hey contractor, or hey GC, do you have somebody since this is going to be probably awarded to you or however, we've got to find a system. Hydrovac trucks are everywhere. I mean, call a hydrovac guy, Sybil. You know, please just pick up the phone. Hey, this water line from this station to this station, I need six holes. I've got a storm drain, a sewer line, and a water and broadband to come in in the next, you know, six months. I'd like to make sure I could verify. Oh, and then all of a sudden, he's got accurate data on that line all the way through. So I think there's not just the utility locators, not just us. I'm not pushing back on the civil engineers, too, because they've got to do a better job and not, and it's all about pass the buck, right? They want to pass the buck to us. We want to pass it to the utility locators, and so we have got to figure out how to get in the get in the same dang room. And and like Chase mentioned earlier, we've got to understand what's costing the industry and this whole entire circle to run. We've got to do better about making excavators aware, but at the same time, the you know, guys that work all over the country like you guys do, how difficult is it to manage not just the 811 systems, but then the bylaws that come with them at the state level? And I'd love to hear a little bit about that. John is smiling.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

And if we can just back up one second, if that's all right. So, back to what you said about you get out there and there's all these surprises. So the job was kind of set for failure before he even got out there, right? The lack of mapping and all that mapping issue there, the mapping issue we see every day. Some of these municipalities, like you said, you go out there and you know, Joe from the city knows here's you know, that water line's over there somewhere. He's got the witching sticks out. Yeah, I saw the uh but but the the top the time that we can't bid that into a project. Uh one of the insurance brokers actually just asked me yesterday, how do you bid that into the project? I and I and I, you know, embarrassed and they said if we bid that into the project, we wouldn't have the project. So we have to figure out, we get there, you know. I I feel you know, always continuous development minded, like we can do better, maybe look into that some uh some prior, but like we want we're not gonna get the job. So the reason I brought that up is like we're about to embark on like a huge historical infrastructure, yeah. Uh opening up the ground at scales we've never seen before. Um so it'd be a really great time to map that inf uh infrastructure, not only the stuff that we're Putting in, but all those intersection points of the existing.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Talk about it.

SPEAKER_04 22:59

Well, you know, I think one of the things that I'm really focused on by being on the board, me and the chairman right now, is focusing the industry on the next step of problems. We've been talking about mapping. We understand that that the from the locator perspective, the excavator perspective, that we got to have maps. And right now we're even just asking for like an inventory map, meaning I don't even need to know whether it's on the left side of the road or right side. I just want to walk onto a job and know if I'm looking for five utilities, three utilities. Just give me a give me an inventory. But the owners are scared to give it because of the liability. So one of the things that we're that I'm definitely ingrained in right now coming out of this conference is that we've got to stop talking about mapping and focus on like safe harbor agreements or something that allows the owner to share the data in whatever format they're most comfortable with and give that out for us to do it. We can talk about this for hours, okay? But we got to get associations like AGA and other places like that to start working on the legal aspect of this and getting them comfortable with sharing the data to us. And if we can do that, then we can start taking the next logical step, which is you know accessing, sharing, whatever again, they're most comfortable with to start getting mapping data, looking back and forth. I completely agree. You know, that that I think I think that's what what we haven't done as well at over the years is we we talk about it, we're gonna try to convince them, kind of convince them, the utilities are scared to death of their legal departments, right? And so you've got to get that solution first, and then you can do what you and I would call a practical solution, which is we we we access this data and we go out and build our projects safer every day, kind of thing. But until we get past that hurdle, we're not getting to where we want to be.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

No, you're exactly right. Go ahead, Brick. Well, I was just gonna say it's like John's uh talking about. We have the technology to go out and even help them build their mapping system. Why we're digging up the stuff? We can go out, like you said. Well, they get up a water line, we've got the locators that have the GPS technology. We can go out and pinpoint our for them, but they don't want it because they don't want the liability. It goes back to the same thing. We can help you build out your mapping system so that we could be better, they could be better, but it's it's the liability issue.

SPEAKER_04 25:14

How do we do yeah, Brent, you got an engineering company, right? You guys collect a lot of data like that.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

I mean, they know what they have. Yep, as you should. And not only that, like without you know, the the mapping side of things with drone technology that's coming, I know they're already they've been doing that for years, but like it's getting a lot easier, more affordable for people to get into. Yeah, municipality side, contractor side, whatever it may be. And so I do believe hopefully we'll finally get some better maths in this country. Like it shouldn't really be that hard with the technology that we have nowadays. And you're right, as long as contractors like us go, hey man, Civil, you want to come over here, or I'll provide the data if you really want it. You know, I have no problem sharing our data. We shoot every bell, top, top pipe, bottom of pipe, sewer, storm, why I don't care what it is, because when he calls me and goes, Hey, you're in the wrong spot in the middle of this run, nobody, I'm not. Check here, tell me you do the math right there on that profile where I'm at. But you're exactly right. It all comes into a pointing contest, and we have got to figure out for the owner's sake, for our business's sake, for the low taker, uh, the actual facility managing the entity in the ground. We have to for all of them. But you're right, we've got to find some type of practical solution. But where I'm going with this, please go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 26:30

Some type of legal solution so we can get to a practical. This is a two-step process. I'm telling you right now, we will not get to a practical solution until we deal with only the reality of the day.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Well, John, how are we going to get past these corporations? Well, that's now being public entities.

SPEAKER_04 26:45

So one of the things we do, and you're going to interview Sarah Tamar, our CEO, okay, she has got great relationships in those worlds, okay? And that's just we we keep pre-focusing every board meeting on these on the next domino we have to trip over, right? We have to tip over. So, you know, we're gonna start looking these people in the eye and going, There's no reason you can't do this. You need to get your legal community together and as an ad hoc group, determine what works for you guys on this. Safe harbor agreements or something like that are in lots of industries. When people share data in other industries, what that means is I if I give you absolute garbage data and you accept it, it's on you for whatever you do with. Okay. Um, the quality you're you're not, I'm not going to be liable for the quality of the data and the outcome. But again, the only way we're going to heal up the data is to get that data back and forth. You give that data, you know, to you, and then you guys go out there and do your work and pothole and give them some data back that helps true up their data for their system. We get this back and forth going, we do it, but we're never gonna get the back and forth, we're never gonna get the solution until we dress the lead up problem.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

And you go back, if you guys are too young to remember this, but oh, there it was.

SPEAKER_05 28:00

Yeah, we're gonna use an experience with your youth experience.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

So, but 25, 30 years ago, you used to be as a contractor, you would call up the in-house locator for X Company. He would come out, ring his maps, throw them out on your tailgate, and say, Yeah, here's where our water line's at. Let's go find it. There was that communication, that open communication. Bait, it's not there, sorry, I can't find it. They would swing out. You don't have that as much anymore with the with the corporations.

SPEAKER_04 28:27

And one of the things I think we need to bring up in this that that, so we had a board meeting in December. We went over a lot of these key aspects. One of the more we had three very startling things come up in our meeting, but one of them was this idea that the call center software. So they pointed out to us how you, you know, let's say it's supposed to be done in three days. This was a 10-day locate that was done on time. Now, is any one of our foremen going to believe a 10-day locate is on time? Well, what happens is the software allows them to say, hey, we referenced the maps, we need more information. So Binx resets the pop, right? And so between the locate community, the excavator community, and the owners, they can trigger these information requests. And so what they've done is turned this into a 10-day locate, but the stats for the state are going to show that that was on top. And so, you know, the software providers in this industry right now are the master enablers of the game. Okay? And they've made it all, you know, and listen, I I don't blame them. That's their job is to make their customer happy, Russell. But the reality is that's what it's doing. And it was quite startling that that you could just see how this all happens, and they're they and and listen, some of it's very subjective. Did they really not have the maps or they could they could not get out there that day? You know, was it a push the button? You say, hey, I don't have the maps when maybe the guy has the maps right in his hand and just can't get there, right? And so there was there's no accountability in it. Uh one of the other things that came up in this is Sarah put together a template of all of the places this could fail. Starts right every single silo of making a call to completing the job, right? There's like 35 potential points of failure, you know, or 25 or 30. Whatever, you know, but but it's like we have it it's almost like amazing that it happens. 40. 40. Okay, yeah, 40, 40, okay. Man can compare it to me. I gotta speak on it later. Hey, but honestly, normally I exaggerate, so I'm glad that uh, you know, she's a useful mind. She's under, yeah, it's a yeah, useless. We'll play that game eventually here. But no, seriously, that uh that that's a huge I mean look at that. 40 points of failure. If you sent your guys out to work and you had 40 points of failure on everything you did, would you ever succeed on any of your jobs?

Networking, DPAC, And Industry Influence

SPEAKER_02 30:55

And you know, it's funny, my insurance guy, it's it's not a if or a when, it's uh a bad owner, bad site condition, bad locate, bad equipment, bad labor, yeah, uh, bad project manager, sure, bad bad weather. Like the bats just keep going on for what we do. Like, most people sign up for and they're like, yeah, they ask me, like, so I should get started in the utility world. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I need to prepare you for some things first, you know what I mean? But as long as you're willing, that's what I'm trying to help. But speaking of that guy that we're gonna call me and go, hey man, is the utility world for something for me to get into? We need more excavators, we need more properly trained, best practice, actively working in the field, excavators and contractors. But what's one thing on uh each and every one of you, I don't care really who starts, but what's one thing on y'all's side of the table that you have learned through CGA that every contractor zero to five should know, zero to five years should know in their mindset? You may even come across the table to me and it's something that I don't pick out. But go ahead, Rand, it sounds like you go.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

I well, I think it goes back to we were talking specifically just in the in the contractor world is the the network. Getting to know, whether it be a big general contractor, uh having that that relationship, coming to conferences, coming, being a part of something. Uh, when you start doing that, you learn tricks in the trade. Whether it be the old people, the young guys, you're always learning something, these things. It's the after hours, drinks that you're having, talking about things. Um, just those relationships you're building as a new one to five uh construction guy. That's what you need is you need that almost mentor to help you through it to learn things when it comes to the damage prevention side, um, it's understanding that there is a lot of reway in there, meaning that you get an in a line, you think you're safe, all of a sudden three years later you get a bill for five to ten grand and you didn't document it. That's is and for a little contractor, I mean that's that's that's payroll. That's so a lot of these. So understanding that there is liabilities that come two, three years later down the line. The bigger you get, the bigger those liabilities are that you've got to be prepared for and you have to have an understanding of that. And coming to these conferences and meeting people and going through it with them, you start to learn tricks of the trade. I think it's just those networks that you build, especially when you're in that one to five, are huge. It's gonna help propel you to that next level to get you to where you want to be.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

I think you're exactly right. I've I would agree with that. Uh two years ago, during this media stuff, I'd never come to conferences other than my local continued education, got to get my water license. But you're right, sir. The moment I start, and it's not necessarily what happens at the booth, it's the networking in the tables in between the booths that you're sitting there and I met John or I met so and so, and we sat there and talked for an hour and a half about whatever, it's those networking pieces. And if you're like myself, guys, you come to these and you learn, you literally are a sponge of information to whoever's gonna sit there and have a conversation with you. But I I that's a great point, John.

SPEAKER_04 33:58

So I I fully agree with the networking aspect because and if you're a contractor who is not going and not participating in your contracting industries group, like a power communication contractors or you know, whichever one you chose to be part of, you're you're missing out on what's really going on in the industry. Uh, I do a little bit of consulting and I do it with small contractors. One of them I just did, he never scared me anything. And he had no visibility into where the industry was heading. And I just don't think you can succeed as a contractor today without a little bit of visibility of the future and where it affects you. The other thing I think, you know, we had a safety uh uh speaker this morning there at breakfast, and you know, it gets back to this safety is the people, and and that's what what turns into a good safety program is you know caring about your people, getting your people in the right frame of line. But as contractors, we're driven by two things: the law and the contract. And the reality is we're driven more by the contract than the law because if we don't get paid, that's right, we're not gonna be here eventually, right? And so our behavior is driven by those two dockies, okay? Then we turn around and expect this safety performance by and and field performance, output performance from our crews. And then, you know, especially in this industry, we are really not a safety industry. We are a risk reduction, risk transfer industry in the damage prevention. That's the way the contracts are set up, that's the intent of what this is all about. I'm not saying that's right. I wish we were a safe diet street, but we're not. So figuring out how to balance, understand that, and balance that. What are the tricks of the trade? I mean, people, even if you're not getting paid profant holding, maybe somebody's doing a lot more of it. You can hear why they why they financially justified that, right? How they've made that work or other things work. And if you're not hearing how other people are doing things, like you say, around the cocktail hour, you you're you're you're missing out on a learning opportunity that you can't get otherwise. I'm sure you know.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Yeah. I mean, I think these guys hit it on the head. Um, and it really goes to, you know, do you want to lag behind? You know, you can do it without going to that. Um, a lot of people do. But are you really making a difference? Are you growing the company? Are you, you know, are you protecting your people? You know, especially like John mentioned, PCCA, they do 85% of the broadband work. That's really great. If you're in that group, you're gonna learn a lot by being there. You know what's coming. It's it's you know, tremendous ROI in the investment on the damage prevention side, CGA. I mean, look if you know, we're surrounded by new technology that can uh not only reduce the risk, the business that we're in, like you said, um, but also increase the productivity. So it's uh it's a no-brainer. It's getting out of the trench for a couple days and uh showing up to learn and then uh being able to pass that on to your crews.

SPEAKER_04 37:05

Yeah, and I want to I want to, and there's another side of this that just hit me when you point that out, is your ability to influence the industry. And I'm gonna give you the fast example right now, and I want your listeners to to, if you take away nothing today, take away this. Okay? We formed the DPAC as our lobbying arm. We're we're focused 100% on damage prevention law. We're not electing candidates or giving money away or any of that stuff. We are focused on these damage prevention law. So for$5,000, you could be a member of that, and that would help your you and your state bring in our arm to help your battle with a bad law or one of the big telcos or somebody that's trying to get an exemption that's gonna make your crews unsafe by not having marked utilities or whatever. That uh to to be able to be a part of that for that, you know. I I don't, you know, I think all of us as contractors can admit, you know, we don't have many$5,000 line items, annual line items, right? I wish. Yeah, exactly. And uh so seriously, you know, you can be one of those people right now who's not only helping set the direction, uh, but getting the benefit in your state from the betterment of damage prevention law for five grand. Yeah, if you're not here, a you don't know that, b, you don't have the ability to take advantage of it. And C, if you just made one job a year go backwards, one job because of your involvement in DPAC, pays for itself, usually just one percent.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

I mean, on that number, yeah, you know what I mean? Maybe, you know, a smaller gig, right? Not even a percentage play.

SPEAKER_04 38:43

You know, and I'll I'll take some blame for this. Uh, we've been having some really in-depth calls. Uh, my my first thing that I pointed out is this safe harbor on mapping. My second one is we are not selling D fact properly to the industry because because for again, what I just said, how do you not buy that? Yeah, that's a that's cheap beer. Yeah, no-brainer. Yeah, and by the way, I expect you to see. Yeah, yeah, honestly, didn't even know. Right. I mean, but looking here with them. But when Friday, when uh Sarah's here on Friday or tomorrow, you can sign up. She'll give you the firm I'm no pressure.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

I don't think I'll have a choice, sir. She said sign a paper, but I'm not gonna have to sign a paper, you know? Uh yeah, so anyways, um that's perfect though. No, you're exactly right. And you know, if you have any type of within your state, guys, any type of governmental reach, start with DPAC. They're gonna arm you. As from what from what I'm hearing, gonna be able to have your resources, y'all's arm, y'all's legal team. Hey, this is where I'm at, this is what we're dealing with. I'm literally, I'm sitting here spinning my wheels in Arkansas. I'm like, hmm.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Yeah. Well, if you're talking the one to five, you really need to narrow your focus on what's important. You don't have a huge staff and all unlimited resources. So you take that five grand, that like grows very quickly on the ROI of what that can do. If you got a narrow, you know, if we're talking the one to five group, it's it's a no-brainer.

Shovel Exemptions And The Safety Stakes

SPEAKER_04 40:03

Now, the one thing I want everybody to know is the the when we're talking damage prevention law, these are multi-year bills, meaning if it's introduced tomorrow, that starts the fight, and you're gonna have a vote on that about two years from now. Well, so this is not a uh, you know, uh uh uh uh you know it's not fixed up, it's not fixing a flat tire, you know, where you just drop it off and come by in an hour and pick it up. You know, you're you're gonna be there a while and you're gonna end up in a in that. But again, over the cycle of that, the other thing we're learning is even when we're changing a state law, the minute it passes, we saw this in Missouri immediately, within two months, they start going after the exemption. Everybody wants to be exempt. Okay, that exemption that we're seeing now, and I I fully believe this exemption to install uh services, uh broadband services to homes uh with a shovel, the shovel is our number two damage. And and it has been in backhoe's number one, shovel's number two. And we've got people then gonna dig unmarked utilities up to a house. Now, when you walk up the side of the house in about a three-foot area, what is there? Gas, electric, fiber? But everybody's lined up, right? So we're gonna tell a guy that has the number two issue for us as an industry, he doesn't need to know where that other stuff is, and he's gonna dig that in. And it's all because two of the majors want to be able to say that they can call, that you can call and buy their service, and it'll be installed the next day. Okay? And before the before they used to lay it on the ground and come back a week or two later, and it was flying. You know, why they've got to go to this extreme is crazy. But our stats will go up, and our workers are more unsafe. They're gonna, I mean, I listen, I was a kid. My first my first one call was in Michigan for Miss Dig in 1978. Okay, I broke what gas lines, you know, HDP glass lines are not that tough, right? You're up there by a house with gas line, underground electric line, you're nicking the electric line, you're breaking the gas line, you got people in the aisles. How does this end what?

SPEAKER_02 42:07

Doesn't and you know, I'm gonna hop on that just for a second. Scott was telling us in the first episode, you know, one of his main influence scenarios that came up. It was a 1972, uh, one of his neighbors' homes. Uh, excavator was in the front yard, pulled the gas service, uh, thought it was great, you know, everything was good. Well, they pulled it out of the house, the house exploded, the the the the deceased, obviously the family, and they just didn't have enough English speaking to get out, so they it was it was kind of a crazy story. But that's us digging in the front yard. Could be with a shovel, could be with a pick you pull on that, like you never know, right? And uh and broadband and fiber and like them small drops, etc. Obviously, you're talking more mainline stuff, but even from mainline to the house, yeah. Like even if you got into your primary conduit, you know what I mean? Secondary conduit hurts you.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

Like they they don't they don't even understand, but guys getting more congested, yeah. You know, we're putting the stuff in every day, so there's more and more stuff in there, which you know causes issues in itself. You know, you think an abandoned line you got that you but you actually found the abandoned line and you think that's the live line, and then you actually hit the real live line.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

Oh then there was un I say that when I say that. We usually um just just talking about this the other day. Does sewer line come up, manhole come out? There was six different fibers and a liquid petroleum we had to cross. It was a whole bunch of different scenarios. We followed two unmarked lines through our sewer line install, and he literally put it right between them the entire time. We didn't hit it. We were treating them as, you know, oh, maybe his locates off. This was just a couple of weeks ago. Well, then we finally spot Dig on the other side when we're doing that. Man, oh no, those lines are there. These two are just old, deleted, don't know. And it's just infuriating when you're trying to get a job in the ground and they're just like, well, we don't really know if it's live or not. Well, can you come out? Can you come check it? Like, I'm that guy. Hey, get your butt out here. I like I want to know before my guys. Well, just drill in. No, my guys ain't drilling nothing. You are. You have the safety. Your crews understand. And so you've got to be, as a contractor, guys, you've got to push back on them and keep your guys safe, number one. But I, man, you've got to have a map. If we had a map, I think that's what this episode should be called. We had a map.

SPEAKER_04 44:29

No, no, we're gonna go. If we had a safe harbor agreement, we could have a map. There you go. That's where we want to go to this. That's literally let's put the steps right. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 44:37

It would just make the entire entire industry safer tomorrow, literally, and take the whole this game, that game out of it for the owners, us as contractors, or the the you know, the utility locators as well. But guys, gentlemen, y'all were famous. Fantastic. I hope you guys enjoyed that as much as I did because y'all came with the information very quickly, on point, and some D Pack. I'm gonna be I'm gonna be talking about that a lot more on here.

Blue Collar Work Is Future-Proof

SPEAKER_04 45:06

And welcome to the D Pac family. We appreciate your uh spread the word.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

It was great of you to join. It really was. Uh we will we're gonna have to get involved. Um crew general contract, the agers selling it. Yeah. Um, gentlemen, thank you guys so much for number one being here. Thank you for being here for your teams and trying to not just be in the industry, but make the industry a better place. And uh glad I got to be here and enjoy this with you guys.

SPEAKER_04 45:37

But audience, I I go ahead, John. Do you want one close on us? Seriously, from an industry, not damage prevention industry, but this. For a young person in the game right now, okay, we in this industry, through water, sewer, gas, electric, everything, are going to support the AI industry, but our jobs are not gonna be replaced by the AI industry industry. And I think it's really important when we start talking to young people that they recognize this is a pretty future-proof job, career, and we do have freight bands, we have everything else. We need young people to think about their path because I I see a path where you could have spent a lot of money and not have a job. You read about those stories well, places like the Wall Street Journal right now. Okay, it's coming more at the day. Exactly. So we are appealing to that person that wants to do what we do, and we have longevity for you for her.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

You know, I'll just throw that on there and just close with this guy's. But I was talking to a concrete buddy of mine, uh, met him through a conference, funnily enough, uh, has been following along. Called him the other day. He's like, dude, I was in a long conversation. I was talking to this flagger working for PG ⁇ E, California, the big the big utility. Yeah. This this gentleman has a master's in world business and a doctorate in this, and went to medicine school. And hey, I swear to God, he's like, What are you doing? He's like, dude, I'm flagging traffic for six, eight months, and after that, I'm gonna be in a literal my job ain't going nowhere. Engineering, this is like they're gonna use me. I just gotta have some field OGT experience. And he was, you know, my concrete guy. I I give give a joke to the concrete guys. If you can't finish school, you finish concrete, right? And shove up.

SPEAKER_05 47:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

Anyways, we need you, concrete guys. Don't take my head off. But um, literally, that what that was just the running theme. And but to to have a flagger, they're already making a jump. Like AI is going to really, really put a dirt dent in all industries, but this one. This one's just gonna make it better. Our guys can't get replaced. Ain't no robots putting a water line in the ground tomorrow or fixing a 300-foot sky-high water break. It's just not happening. Uh uh, maybe there's gonna be new technology as we're sitting around here at the beautiful CGA conference, but as of right now, I'm so glad you brought that point up, sir. I really, really appreciate that. But guys, um we've got another episode coming this afternoon. But I can't thank you, gentlemen, enough for your time, um, your duty and responsibility to CGA and your companies. I really appreciate you guys. And uh guys, you be safe out there, and we'll catch you guys next time.

SPEAKER_03 48:12

If you've enjoyed this episode, be sure to give it a like, share it with the fellas, check out our website to send us any questions and comments about your experience in the blue collar business. Who do you want to hear from? Send them our way, and we'll do our best to answer any questions you may have. Till next time, guys.