Moving Forward with EMC
Co-founders Al Heartley, Tiffany Vega, and Leandro Zaneti gather to discuss current topics facing non-profit arts leaders and organizations.
Moving Forward with EMC
Moving Forward, Supporting Caregivers in the Workplace Will Be the Norm. An Interview with Rachel Spencer Hewitt
Caregiving and creative careers have long been treated as incompatible worlds, forcing artists and arts administrators to choose between their passion and their families. Rachel Spencer-Hewitt, founder of the Parent Artist Advocacy League (PAAL), is challenging this false dichotomy through groundbreaking advocacy work.
This eye-opening conversation delves into Rachel's personal journey from hiding her pregnancy as a Broadway actor to creating a national organization that's transforming how the arts industry supports caregivers.
Welcome to Moving Forward with Evolution Management Consultants, the podcast where we dive deep into the dynamic world of nonprofit arts management. I'm your host, tiffany Vega-Gibson, and I'm thrilled to have you join us on this journey. In each episode, we'll explore the ever-evolving landscape of the nonprofit arts sector. Nonprofit art sector, we'll bring you thought-provoking discussions and innovative strategies to equip you with the knowledge and inspiration to take your organization to new heights. Let's get started. Okay, welcome to Moving Forward with EMC Tiffany Mega here, and I have a special guest today. I have Rachel Spencer-Hewitt of the Parent Artist Advocacy League. Hi, rachel.
Speaker 2:Hello, it's so incredible to be here with you.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you so much, and just a side note, I am on the national board of PAL and so I'm a little biased, but I thought it was really important to have a conversation, particularly about how to make the workplace within arts institutions inclusive and equitable for caregivers and parents, and Rachel is our expert on that. And so, rachel, first I would love for you to just introduce yourself and what your background is, and how did you get into or, like, what was your passion to create?
Speaker 2:POW. Yeah, absolutely so it's. I'll just profit by saying there are so many of us. I would consider you an expert in this work as well, tiff, because the expertise comes from the experience in the field the experience of the field in terms of this work and inclusion and advocacy. You know we're inundated with these conversations around merit. I think it should really be defined by lived experience over anything else.
Speaker 2:And my path into this work started off as a theater artist, trained as an actor. I got just like a bachelor's of science degree in drama at a lovely liberal arts school down in South Texas, but then ended up at Yale School of Drama for grad acting, got my MFA and you know, looking back now I was like, yeah, of course, six days a week and full classes was our first year. And then Simpsons advocated for five days a week and I was like, no way, I want to stay in it, that's, that's the way to do it, just to be completely immersed. And I was so young, I had no attachments, I had no responsibilities. Of course, I wanted to stay immersed and I didn't realize that you could really cut your teeth when you had balance. So I graduated from there. I went to New York, had an incredible time traveling in the regional theater circuit. I performed in Vienna, austria as well, and then I ended up on Broadway covering King Charles III and went on.
Speaker 2:But by the time I had reached that point in my life, I had a daughter, and she was 13 months old, and the collision of those two worlds was hot and cold. I hid my pregnancy the entire time. I didn't let the world know that I had a baby until she was eight weeks old. I just did one post on Facebook and then never, never, posted my children again. And in my pregnancy I kept it a secret from my agent for as long as I could and only told him once I knew I was going to start showing in the room. And this is a conversation that I he's still my manager now. This is a conversation that I try to highlight as much as possible because I went in already afraid, and this was my first pregnancy.
Speaker 2:I had no precedent for fear, except the principles that one, because of sexual harassment in the theater being objectified, I already didn't trust the industry, with my body right away like to start off. And then, two, I knew that any request I was terrified of putting in conflicts, or I was terrified of, you know, not taking a note. I had already been conditioned, especially as a woman, especially, you know, like the conversations around oh, you're Brazilian, you must be so sexy when you put like all of these, you know, judgments and biases. I already knew, oh, anything about me is going to create a character judgment based on their bias. And so this news about me being pregnant, this news about me having, I already knew to be afraid because of other conditions that had set me up for that fear.
Speaker 2:So I walk into his office, I scheduled an appointment, I closed the door. It was very serious because I just didn't know how this was going to go and, looking back, I should have. I should have known, I should have known my rights, I should have known who to tell when I you know all these things I should have known because people have been having babies longer than theater has been around in theater is old, but not that old. And he was like, okay, what's, what's going on? Like is everything okay? And I was like, okay, I just wanted to let you know that, um, this is on a need to know basis for casting directors and employers, but I'm pregnant. And he leapt out of his seat and was thrilled for me. This is such a I would later discover how rare this was and how rare it still is today, which is part of what makes me furious. But he leapt out of his seat so excited. He was like what? That's incredible. I'm so happy for you. He took me around the office and he bragged on me to everyone in the office and he's like let's sit down, let's talk about what you want to do, let's talk about your plan. And I realized that all the conditioning from the harmful treatment in this industry that had led me to fear had almost made me miss an opportunity for someone who is ready to set a precedent of support and what that looked like.
Speaker 2:And those two, those two emotional realities continue to butt heads through my pregnancy and I ended up at a grad school party where I was sharing with someone I had been amped by this opportunity to feel proud of my pregnancy and my child and fast forward to. She's a year around a year old, and I'm at a grad school party, christmas party and an actor who had been a year ahead of me. He, you know, did not have kids at the time and he asked me so how's it going? And I was like, actually it's really great. I've got great support from my agent. You know, I'm going to auditions and it's tough and I have to make the child care work and you know.
Speaker 2:But I think, and he cuts me off and he says, oh wait, that's honestly that's not everybody's experience, so I wouldn't share that. And he silenced me about my sicknesses. And he silenced me about my sicknesses and I was shocked and like time froze and my neck felt hot and I was suddenly very deeply aware that a few blocks away, my infant daughter was in a stroller with a babysitter at a Starbucks in Manhattan late at night, past her bedtime, where I had changed into my party clothes from my travel clothes from Philadelphia, and I realized how much work I had put in just to be at that party that he did not have to do. And on the bus ride home to Philadelphia all I could think about was who? Who are these women then?
Speaker 2:Who are these? Who? Whose story? This is already hard. Who is this already hard? For that it is not turning into occasional successes.
Speaker 2:And then I started to be more honest with myself. I'm turning down 90% of my auditions because I can't afford the childcare to do the work. Wait a minute. I don't know anyone else that I can talk to about. Wait a minute.
Speaker 2:I was terrified to say anything and so I started, instead of taking his advice and not talking, I started the blog auditioningmomcom, where I wrote stories I had been journaling. Where I started to publish my journals and stories about. The first post was how to prepare for an audition by changing a diaper on a moving train. And it was just marrying these two ideas of saying, like, my worlds are not separate as hard as I'm working to separate them. I've been now forced into this idea of like, okay, you can have your child, but you better show up as though you don't have one. And how do I start to remove those boundaries and say like, no, I'm going to show up as my full self. I'm going to be my full self with my child and I'm going to be my full self in the room. Very shortly after that, I was able. I published a story about active discrimination in the casting room where the director said, yeah, but are you going to be ready to do it if it's going to be a few weeks after having a child, which is totally illegal? That story's up there that people can still read. So I started to research like well, where is the support then? And reach out to other moms and publish their stories.
Speaker 2:And I did two articles for HowlRound on MAM Ireland, which is the advocacy group for theater and motherhood in Ireland, and also PIPA UK, and once these articles were published, stories started to pour into my DMs for people saying thank you for writing this. I can't talk about it because I had to leave the last theater because they didn't have maternity leave and I had to find a new job. All the way to messages about I was fired for being pregnant and I'm currently in conversations with a lawyer and I don't know if I can afford it. And I started to realize, oh, this isn't just about the challenge and the difficulty of us even being seen as whole people when we have other people that we care about. This is a legal issue. This is another huge gaping hole in the lack of HR, lack of protections, lack of industry standard in the work that we do, and someone tweeted at me it was Twitter at the time tweeted at me once these articles were published about man Ireland and PIPA UK. We need something like this in the US.
Speaker 2:And within a few months of interacting with a few of those moms, we launched Parent Artist Advocacy League for the Performing Arts in Philadelphia, new York and New Jersey in a single weekend and then spent the year publishing literature, doing research, reaching out to people who getting many responses of no, this isn't possible, you can't do it. Everyone's tried. No one can find a sustainable budget to people saying you know who you should talk to is Arianna Smart Truman at Elevator Repair Service, because she's been doing this for decades. And so we started to realize like, oh, people were so loud in their conviction that it was impossible because they wouldn't shut up long enough to listen to the fact that there are people who not only said it's possible in theory but have been doing it in practice for decades. And so I was like we have to.
Speaker 2:After our year of motherhood, breaking the silence and doing that research, we realized, oh, the discrimination is thriving because the care is happening in pockets and there's no connective tissue, and so PAL can be this connective tissue of being a hub and a database and a communication and exchange of. Yes, it's possible. Here's what we've done. If that's what you've done, this is what we've done, and we just start to resource exchange, to build each other up, and that's how it started.
Speaker 1:Wonderful.
Speaker 2:I don't even know when I came, when I got involved, so I don't remember it's been a long time yeah, it was years ago, I think you said out about the pandemic, it was pre-pandemic. We were talking about Louisiana and, like you, heading up a chapter there. Yeah, and you had done. Yeah, we had. I think we'd met through a different conference actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't remember in so long. You know. It's interesting is that I've had similar experience. You know, I worked for a corporation. It was very different. Interesting enough, it was a Canadian corporation. So you, think that they would have. If y'all don't know, canada, you get six months paid parental leave from the government and in fact actually you can. It's it's six months, and then you can extend that to 18 months total. Yes, right.
Speaker 1:So, um, uh, and in fact I had a coworker who I never met. I was there for three and a half years and I never met her because she had back-to-back kids. She was on maternity leave for three years, paid maternity leave for three years, so you would think that they would have this. But I remember when, and understand, I found out I was pregnant a week after I got the job, so about three months into my job I had to inform my manager that I was pregnant and I was made to feel like I was a nuisance. Oh, of course, Um, like that. This was a huge inconvenience. Um, and then, um, my, my water broke when I was 28 weeks and I gave birth at 29 weeks. So my son was severely premature.
Speaker 1:I had a C-section and so I'm recovering from a C-section, pumping milk around the clocks so that I can deliver milk to the NICU for my son and then also going to the NICU right To be there with my tiny little boy. And I had to work part-time because my maternity leave, I had not earned enough income, like, say, because they didn't give me paid maternity leave, Because, even though the government of Canada provides it, the company wouldn't provide it to their American employees. So I didn't have enough money saved because I gave birth three months sooner than I thought I would and my male manager did not understand why I couldn't do certain things, Like I said, I can't take any phone calls, Like I can't call any clients and I'm in bed. And he didn't understand it because he knew nothing about the female body, nor understanding what a C-section is, nor understanding what the what, what hell it is to pump milk, to be exclusively pumping milk, um, you know of like literally your life is, is around, is surrounded around, pumping milk, Um, and for me it was like this is a life-saving measure for my son, Um, and the stress of having a severely premature child in the NICU Didn't understand it. And you know, fast forward later my son was a toddler.
Speaker 1:During the pandemic I worked at another company and I had a very hard time keeping up with the workload because I was working while having a toddler son sitting next to me the whole time and so constantly interrupted. And the HR manager, who's a mother, said to me I don't understand why you can't get this work done. We have two other employees who have children and they're able to get their work done. Why can't they, why can't you? And first of all, their children were babies. My child was, you know, old enough and tall enough to reach up onto the kitchen counter and grab a steak knife by the blade and bring it to me.
Speaker 2:Real.
Speaker 1:And he was autistic. I didn't know he was autistic, but he was autistic. And so, like I have very different circumstances, like they can put a baby in a bassinet next to them. My baby is literally everywhere and jumping on everything. So so it was. You know, I've been made to feel like being pregnant was an inconvenience and having a kid was an inconvenience, and that I was failing at work because of my child. Yeah, and being compared to other mothers, that I wasn't as good as a worker as the other mothers were, and so what was interesting was, when we were building this business EMC, we built it at my dining room table here in New Orleans, al Leandro myself, and later that night we had a drunken night in the French quarter, and I said, a lot of good things happen there, where a lot of good things start.
Speaker 1:If you're going to build a business in New Orleans, you have to have one drunken night on the French Quarter and I said to both Al and Leandro I said, well, I'm so glad that you were here watching my life as a mom and you know life with son, because I think my son was three at the time, or four years old and I said you can actually see what my life is like and know that you know I'm not exaggerating or lying. And Leandro said to me you never had to show us for us to believe you. We always believed you. That's it. And neither Al nor Leandra have children.
Speaker 1:So the I remember the next day cause I was drunk, so it didn't hit me. I remember the next day, um, I was in the shower and I remembered it and I started sobbing in the shower and I and I thought about like, wow, like how is it that that both situations I was in, it was either already it was by women who are mothers, right, and here I am working with these two individuals who don't have children, who don't know, who are men, who do not understand what life is like as a woman, or or, um, um, the mother, and them telling me that I didn't have to show them what my life was like when my kid in order for them to believe when I tell them like, sorry, I can't do this, I have this in my son, or you know, I'm overwhelmed, or I'm not sleeping, you know, like all of this, yeah, and so I, just like I was, I was sobbing out of joy and feeling so lucky to be able to work with individuals who got it immediately, yeah, who already made space for me as a mom, without me even having to ask yeah, and I'm. And so I'm so blessed, I'm so blessed to have business partners like them and I wish that everyone has that experience Right In their workplace, which is why I'm on the board of how. Yeah, because I don't think, I don't. I think that as moms, especially here in the United States states, we are automatically, we're walking into the workplace with our defenses up, of course, yeah, and so when you are able to walk in immediately and just be you and have understanding and empathy and not having to explain yourself, the amount of relief and productivity actually you know that you can get done just by people.
Speaker 1:Understanding who you are Is just.
Speaker 2:I think it's absolutely necessary in the workplace, which is why I really believe in what PAL does elder care, having children, employees, with these major life events, any major life event is going to be an inconvenience to any leader who lacks intelligence and creativity. I mean empathy sure, please, dear God, we want that. But there are also systems that you can put in place If you struggle to feel it does not absolve you from the absolute necessity of being an intelligent, creative leader who realizes oh wait, just the psychological safety that you're talking about, the mental, emotional, physical, logistical, time-restricted real estate that gets freed up in my employees, in my coworkers, when I just do the work on myself and in our systems, to make this a psychologically safe space where they don't have to come into the space with fear, is exponentially, exponentially going to give me return, like if you must see it from a selfish perspective.
Speaker 2:As a leader, you're going to get returned the safer you make a space for people to exist with their real life engagements and responsibilities. Adding to that the improvements in reducing turnover rates, in being able to communicate with each other, in able to, you know, have this feeling of camaraderie and relationship and trust All those things grow when leaders do the work. Like you're talking about your experience of having that empathy and modeling trust to themselves by saying we believe you, these are your challenges. You don't owe us your story, you don't owe us your narrative, because if you don't trust people, why are you in the business of hiring them? If you have those trust issues, you should not be in a position of hiring, because that is a trust exchange at its core.
Speaker 2:There's also so many conversations we had early on. You know, when you're talking about like I had this employer who was awful because they didn't understand, so they just made these assumptions, you know they lacked the education. And then you're like but then I had this employer and they were incredible and we noticed, oh, it's that hot and cold, it's the luck of the draw. And you know, in my story about the discrimination in the casting room, I was like I can't enter every room just hoping to God that the person behind the table is going to be good, like that's not okay. That's not how any industry should run and that is the responsibility of the people behind the table. That is the responsibility of leadership, where you know everything from the responsibility of leadership. Where you know everything from people saying like, oh, you know, we want to support caregivers, but we don't have it in the budget. That's not good enough. Or people saying, oh yeah, we support caregivers. We say like, yeah, just bring them, do whatever you want. And I'm at the point where I'm like that's not good enough.
Speaker 2:There has to be an external written accountability in your policy. That, as a caregiver and I say caregiver because the conversation started with mothers and we're both mothers but also how an organization treats motherhood is also reflected in how they treat people who get sick and have to care for themselves. We're all caregivers at some point how we have to take care of our family members. Without that external accountability, there's always fear turning the knob to enter that room. But if a leader is able to proceed, any introductions to themselves with their commitment to access to care and not just a family inclusive, but family supportive, which Nicole Brewer talks about all the time. Family supportive environment if that's the first time I meet a leader is through their policy. I am not going to have fear when I enter, as much fear when I enter the room to meet them and the conversations that we have are going to be exponentially again more rewarding for both of us when that's been removed through commitment that's been removed through commitment.
Speaker 1:So can you talk a little bit about what PAL does and what resources it offers to help with these barriers that parents and caregivers face in the arts industry?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. Our mission is to elevate the national standard of care for caregivers in the performing arts and media and support the businesses and companies who want to support them. We're described, as you know, parent Artists Advocacy League for the Arts and Media is a national community resource hub and solutions generator for individuals with caregiver responsibilities and the institutions who strive to support them. So what we do is, first and foremost, we create a space where you're not alone, where you do not have to reinvent the wheel, carve this out guess, should I do? I have to tell my employer if I'm pregnant. Guess, was that illegal?
Speaker 2:There's a space where you can come in and, at the very least, you can even say like I don't even know what action to take right now, I'm just scared. And's a space where you can come in and, at the very least, you can even say like I don't even know what action to take right now, I'm just scared. And have a space where we can connect you with people in our chapters across the country, or just someone on the other end of the email to say you're not alone. And then, as a resource hub, we have everything from something we've developed called the new standard of care, which is three justice pillars, and 11 very affordable action steps that leaders and organizations can take to overhaul their companies. It's the smallest steps that make the biggest change to make them family supportive. And that's right there on our website. There's. You don't have to pay anything and you can go through the list and if you literally just do that checklist, you have the resource that will start to really move mountains. All the way to our national handbook of best practices, there are all of these leaders who really broke ground in doing the research and like what can we legally and sustainably provide people in caring environments that, with their permission, have gone into principles in this handbook that people can look up chapters, it's for individuals to find there's actually a spreadsheet who to tell when you're pregnant? There we interviewed four stage managers equity stage managers who built in pumping and lactation breaks for people who need them without needing to take the equity break, because that's also illegal. You should not have to use your equity break, and we worked with them to give the templates for those four different types of rehearsals. So if a stage manager wants to create that support and they don't have that experience especially, they can just go and grab that.
Speaker 2:And then the solutions generator is. Once we started to do the research on what solutions were out there, we started to investigate okay, what still needs to be built. And so we work with fellow thought leaders and we work with partners everything from you know taking the childcare matinees that that had been attempting to pop up and then systematizing them and doing research with the playwrights realm for the Radical Parent Inclusion Project and identifying like, okay, at what point does support need to be provided? Childcare in the audition room, childcare during callbacks. What does it look like for people to safely ask for the support that they need that is legally compliant but also compassionate, without them having to share their trauma and stories and developing a template for that as well.
Speaker 2:And then, where we've come to now is also increasing the grants that we provide.
Speaker 2:We have the Lanish Miller White Grant that it's already closed for this year, but it's providing $1,000 to BIPOC organizations to put on their budget line items for caregiver access and support.
Speaker 2:Where we're directly funding the institutions that are committed to these practices opened and they will be open through January 15th are individual child care grants and caregiver grants, which we have been doing for, I think, since 2019, right before the pandemic and it covers everything from BIPOC reproductive health support there's $1,000 all the way through trans and non-binary reproductive health support and just dedicated.
Speaker 2:You know they're called micro grants, but I don't care for that term so much because the responses that we get back from these amounts $700 to $1,000 of funding committed just to someone's health and care and or caregiving support that they need can save someone's life, and so there's nothing micro about that impact. And then, even further, we've started to collect the surveys over the years and generate data from them. So I will say, finally, we have a project called the Reproductive Reckoning Project, where people have shared their stories of pregnancy discrimination all the way to our big survey of care, which has gathered raw data on the impact of caregiving and caregiving decisions on people in this industry and their careers over time, like what has really been the obstacle that, as we all know, is intersectional, but now we have the data to illustrate those intersections and what that means.
Speaker 1:Can you talk a bit about how, those intersections and what that means? Can you talk a bit about how, or, I guess, why you believe that the work of PAL inherently is anti-racist work?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. The first principle of the new standard of care is you cannot have an anti-racist organization without caregiver support. You can't Like if you think you have an anti-racist organization but you'll get to caregiving later. You can't Like if you think you have an anti-racist organization but you'll get to caregiving later. You haven't done it. Keep working. And one of the biggest pieces is that we know worldwide that caregiving responsibilities economically, emotionally, physically, disproportionately impact marginalized communities. Black, brown and indigenous people are so under-supported in our healthcare system and in our government systems of support that their bodies are going through the same impacts of reproduction change, caring for others and the health impacts that those have being parts of sandwich generations, but then the amount of support that they receive is so much less than their white counterparts that what we find is you cannot make theater in a vacuum that is outside of those realities.
Speaker 2:So, when you say like, oh, we believe in an anti-racist work where we create access, you know, for Black artists and we bring them in, but you don't have a caregiver line item. If someone is caring for their mother, they're going to have less support outside in the world and therefore less likely to be able to engage with the access you're trying to provide them and you are shutting off access points to the access point you're attempting to build when it's not comprehensive. That way, some of the other pieces of data that we have on our site in the new standard of care is that we have an article from Nicole Brewer on the need for anti-racist practices.
Speaker 2:Without caregiving practice in policy and external accountability, the biases of leadership are going to come through, even in the caregiving policies.
Speaker 2:They try to create People saying, oh, just bring your kid, just bring your child, just bring your baby. But when, especially in predominantly white institutions, when there is an institution where the artists themselves they're still treading on whether or not they feel safe, they cannot bring their child into that space, because they will not bring their child into a space that is not fully safe for them. There have also been stories where white mothers have brought their babies, or white fathers bring their babies and they're praised for the sort of dedication, but that mothers of color have brought their children in and they're seen as unprofessional. It's just one more example of how you know the inherent, unconscious bias starts to go into play in the context of family responsibilities, that they're less committed, et cetera. And without comprehensive anti-racist caregiving policies and caregiving policies in anti-racist work put down into writing for accountability, biases will flourish because no one can be perfect in their application of their own flexibility and no one should want to be. That's going to be exhausting and it's, it's doomed to fail.
Speaker 1:Can you talk a little bit about how PAL is helping you know millennials? We are this generation that is sandwiched right. Where we have young children while also caring for elderly parents at the same time, especially if you come from immigrant parents where you were looked at as the retirement plan. Yes, yeah, so can you talk a little bit about how you're supporting folks like that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. Very quickly, when PAL PAL launched intentionally with the word parent because it wasn't just motherhood even though it's dedicated to motherhood in the first year, but it was like within weeks that we realized, oh, that's even too limiting. We really should be talking about all caregiving in the way that we're engaging with that and addressing it is all of our grants, all of our resources, all of our practices are committed to caregiving as a spectrum that everyone belongs to. So everyone is a caregiver at some point. And more specifically, when we engage with institutions on helping them build out their caregiver access budget line items, we will only engage with them if they're putting into practice an opportunity for elder care, other dependent care. I mean there are artists who are caring for their nieces, for their friend's child, for their parent and their child and now suddenly their partner. And without complex infrastructure, all we have is a performative babysitter line that will only serve the privileged, the people who either have support outside that is going to take care of those other realities, or who don't have complex caregiving realities to engage with. And as millennials, again in the intersectionality of the BIPOC community, we see that as the intersection increases, so does the responsibility of care across generations. There is a link on the New Standard of care and pal's website where it connects to. You know, government websites are changing right now but um, but connects to data from the us government that had done in its consensus, and the direct quote is um, they were. They did research on the impacts of providing family leave and family supported practices. This is just in general across industries and the direct quote from there is estimates for subgroups suggest that Black, non-hispanic mothers saw the largest absolute gain in leave taking, and so much of that also has to do with the fact that often the intersectionality of BIPOC caregivers means they are caring for multiple generations at once.
Speaker 2:So when you have family leave, when you create those points of access to leave and reenter without the loss of a job which, reminder, in the US also means loss of health insurance then what you see is the greatest impact happening to the people with the most need for it, which is also why PAL is committed to and will only develop programs with institutions who are committed to centering those with the most need in any initiative, because when we do that, the ripple effect out will cover the most people. But when we say, oh, we actually just want to do babies, we actually just want to do more. We start to create only a system that can support the hyperprivileged, and hyperprivileged systems do not ripple out, they do not. And again, if you need to have a selfish take on this and I won't call it selfish let's just like adopt some of the terminology that is super prevalent in the zeitgeist right now.
Speaker 2:If you need to adopt highly efficient systems and financially sustainable practices, for this take, it is that if you create and develop an initiative and allow it to grow, that only serves the privilege, it is going to cost you more money and time to deconstruct and reconstruct it to allow it to fit more people. If you start on a smaller scale with a prototype that centers its hypothesis on those with the greatest need, you're going to have the greatest return. One, on your investment, because it's a guaranteed need, almost completely guaranteed. Two, you're going to have a greater impact communication with your board, with your funders and with people who are donating. Three, you're going to have a greater impact communication with your board, with your funders and with people who are donating. Three, you're going to have a greater connection to the community and have a greater understanding of the story that goes along with why this need is necessary. And four, you do not have to deconstruct it for it to ripple outward and support the people who may not need it as much. It will naturally reverberate in supporting those people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you, and I know that the world is changing, yes, every day. But what is your hope and dream for PAL? I guess, let's say, five years from now?
Speaker 2:Oh, five years from now. I mean a year from now. The goal is that an individual with caregiving responsibilities walking into an institution is more likely to expect that they have a caregiver support plan than expect that they don't. That's that, that in a year I want it, and this is shared with our shared leadership team Garly Cranielli-Jones, tamanya Garza, adriana Gaviria. It is shared that a year from now, it should be strange and the weird thing to not have a caregiver support plan. That's in one year.
Speaker 2:In five years, I want to see PAL as a continual accountability for the industry, continual resource generator as technology grows, as administrations change, as language and verbiage changes, as we learn more about the caregiving impact.
Speaker 2:I want PAL not only to have continued elevation at that standard and challenge our industry to evolve to better practices, but also that PAL has taken this industry to be a leader in caregiver support practices for our country and other industries so that they say, oh, now, right now, artists who leave the field and go into corporations with no higher calling, but they're just like, we make money doing events are like yeah, and they had a lactation booth and I didn't have to ask for this because they had HR.
Speaker 2:Oh, and they gave me this time off because my kid was sick. I mean, right now, the arts is still barely neck and neck if not still a bit behind corporations with no higher calling. And so what we need to see is that if we really believe that the arts has both a tangible and intangible gift to contribute to society, we have to start creating policy that reflects that by creating a gift of support to our contributors to this gift. And so, in five years, I want to see PAL as a resource hub and uplifting our industry as leaders in the care conversation.
Speaker 1:And my last question for you is if you could look at or meet Rachel from when you were pregnant with your first child, advice would you give her?
Speaker 3:oh my gosh, she like made me cry right away. Sorry, tiffany, I want you to answer this question too honestly. Um, the advice I would give her is like don't be afraid, you're not alone, and I hope anyone who you know is is going through any sort of like care for themselves if they're sick and they're scared to tell their boss if you're even thinking about becoming pregnant or if you are. I want you to know the same thing. Yeah, what would you say?
Speaker 1:what would I think for me is just to trust yourself, hmm, um, and know that the fight is going to be worth it. Hmm, and I say that because, um, about three and a half years ago, I decided to become a full-time entrepreneur. Hmm and um, you know, I had a period this year of time because my situation has changed um to where I was looking for full-time work, that like at a company, um, while doing my, my work with EMC, which is a full-time job as well, and I realized recently that that's not the right move for me and that, because another place, unfortunately, is not set up for what I need as a mother of a child, a single mom of a child with special needs, you know where it's me and him, and I can't you know if I get a call and saying you know he's having a meltdown or something or he needs you, you know to come here, or you know so. For instance, once every two to three weeks he doesn't sleep an entire night. So that means I don't sleep and that means that I have to drop them off at school late and then go to work on no sleep, and so I realized I can't do it. I have to trust myself, trust the work that we're doing and create the opportunities for me, create the workplace that I deserve, and I'm very privileged that I can do that. You know I joke and I say you know, if I need a mental health day, if I need to take time off, I just look in the mirror and ask hey, you good if we just Just ask myself, yeah, and I think it's like, and I think that, showing the way that I live, the way that I work, I know people watch me, I know people are literally watching me right now, but I know that people watch me and I know that I'm an example of what people people look to me as an example I recognize that, yeah, especially younger generations, for sure Of how do I do this? How do I have a kid? You know I think about oh God, this was 10, 11, 11 years ago.
Speaker 1:I was at the first ever Latinx Theater Commons convening at Emerson in Boston, and there was an actress from Chicago, a prominent actress from Chicago, who talked about watching Karen Zacarias have children three kids and be the writer that she is and have the career she has, because originally she thought, as a prominent actress in Chicago, I'm never going to be able to have children. I can't. The work will not allow me to be a mother, and literally just seeing Cameron Zacharias be a mom of three, of little kids back to back, and being the force that she is, made her realize, oh, I can do it. And so for me it's like being an entrepreneur and in the arts for people like us. Yeah, I know that that is an example that I'm living that example.
Speaker 1:It's hard as hell. I'll tell you that it is hard. My son had a whole meltdown on the car on the way to school today because I couldn't plug his tablet into the charger because I was on the highway. Yeah, real, you know. And and screaming. I mean, if anyone has autistic children, it's. Their meltdowns are not like regular tantrums, they are epic. Not like regular tantrums, they are epic. And so driving on a highway with a seven-year-old screaming at the top of his lungs in the backseat while throwing things at you, it's like. And then having to come here, like I said, ate breakfast, did my makeup and then I have to do a podcast, there's a lot, it's a lot, lot. And so I think that's yeah. What I would tell myself is just to trust yourself and know that it can be better. And it can be better because you will create it for yourself. Real, and I know that not everybody can do that.
Speaker 2:I get that you know well I mean, but that's you said and that's why I'm so committed to this work, and I just want to say, like what you shared is so powerful, and for those listening, if you can't create it for yourself, trust yourself, like Tiff says right. And then Tiff, like, if we could sum it up like that's what PAL is committed to. For those of you who can't, we're here to bang on the doors of your employer for you so that they start creating that for you. Because, again, it is the responsibility of the employer, of the leader, to set that standard. And anyone needing this who's like I can't go out on my own. That's why PAL exists. That's exactly why and, tiff, I think that your, your example is so necessary.
Speaker 2:You are that to someone, to many someone's, many people. You know we call, you know that we call PAL. Pal, we call any like person who's like I'm just out here doing the thing and trying to survive. We call that research in the field. Trying to survive. We call that research in the field. Like you are, you are modeling the coexistence of life's realities and a pursuit of a passion and pursuit of a dream and a pursuit of something you're committed to. So you are the embodiment of that possibility for someone and that's it's incredibly valuable and it's why we all, we all need to continue to find opportunities to share our stories.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I do. I think it's so important for all of us to have these conversations and I think even I think that the older generations you know, at least for me, within the Latina theater community, I've seen so many of folks who have created their own spaces Rosalba Rolon and Luis Valdez and Jose Luis Valenzuela Luis Valdez and Jose Luis Valenzuela like they created their own companies and literally had their kids there in the rehearsal room and their kids are all theater makers now. You know, and so you know they made it work because they had to make it work. There was no choice, and so I think it's just like seeing it, you know from our elders and where it was just like a norm right, but it was also a norm, I guess, within the culture is like your kids are always around and they're always there when, even when, they shouldn't be. Yeah, great.
Speaker 2:Like don't watch this scene. It's like put that baby to bed, like put that baby out there. They're good, they'll sleep in.
Speaker 1:But I think that, you know, I'm very excited to see you know. And then we had Gen X and we had, you know, watching Karen Zacarias do this right With her three little children and she talks about like the reason why she became a writer was because she needed to be home with her kids yeah, you know. And she created a youth you know theater organization in DC. You know, specifically because of this, you know, specifically because of this, and now seeing millennials, our generation as well as showing, you know, younger generations of like you can do this, you can make it work. I think it's just really inspiring. So I'm very hopeful and positive about the future of caregiving, inclusivity in the workplace and I think that if anything I hope, if anyone listening to this podcast today gets out of this is that you do have a voice, you have resources and it is okay to ask. It is your right to ask or demand these resources in your workplace.
Speaker 2:Yep, and I would offer, if you still feel in danger, to ask reach out to PAL and we'll reach out to your employer and say, hi, we have compassion training curriculum. We'd love to talk to you about engaging in a workshop, compassion training curriculum. We'd love to talk to you about engaging in a workshop. Because if there are leaders listening to this again, if you think, oh, no one's asked for this, that means they're just too scared to, because there is no such thing as never having to come across someone who needed caregiver access. It's just not. It's just not true.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, but I also love that principle that you mentioned, tiff, about it's okay to ask. I also want to encourage leadership. It's okay to ask, it's okay to reach out to a pal or someone who engages in this work and say, okay, I know that I need to do this. I may even be embarrassed of how behind I am on it, but how do I start? Please, please, do not feel any shame in in in that question. Um, because then you're going to be a safer space for other people to ask for support and you're going to have something to offer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because we don't want to lose amazing talent, simply because.
Speaker 2:Simply. And also one day maybe you, one day, you may need care and you're like I have not built this organization to survive, with me needing time, with me needing help, with my family member needing help. But if you do build it around the care of others, you are also engaging in care for yourself. Build it around the care of others, you are also engaging in care for yourself. Yeah, that is a reciprocal return system guaranteed.
Speaker 1:Because every single one of us is going to be there.
Speaker 2:Every single one. This is not a niche conversation. Every human being will have human realities and major life events.
Speaker 1:We are all caregivers at one time. I hear it. Well, thank you Rachel. Oh, it was such a pleasure.
Speaker 2:I'm glad to talk with you guys. Yes, yes, so mutual. I love this. I'll just see you every Friday, just like when you record, just go for coffee.
Speaker 1:All right, y'all. You can find out more information about Pal and rachel in the episode notes um, and we'll see you next time. Bye you.