Moving Forward with EMC
Co-founders Al Heartley, Tiffany Vega, and Leandro Zaneti gather to discuss current topics facing non-profit arts leaders and organizations.
Moving Forward with EMC
Designing Power: How Organizations Can Examine Shared Leadership Models with Devon Berkshire and Miranda Gonzalez
What if adding more leaders isn’t the solution—and sometimes makes things worse? We dig into the real work behind shared leadership in nonprofit arts with guests Devon Berkshire and Miranda Gonzalez, tracing why so many theaters moved beyond the traditional AD/MD model and what it actually takes to decentralize power without breaking your culture. We follow the arc of this conversation in organizations from trend to practice, unpacking the difference between shared leadership and shared responsibility, and how “move fast and break things” becomes “move slow and build trust.”
Go read the Howlround series here: The Evolution of Shared Leadership - https://howlround.com/series/evolution-shared-leadership-theatre
Welcome to Moving Forward with Evolution Management Consultants, the podcast where we dive deep into the dynamic world of nonprofit arts management. I'm your host, Al Hartley, and I'm thrilled to have you join us on this journey today. In each episode, we'll explore the ever-evolving landscape of the nonprofit art sector. We'll bring you thought-provoking discussions and innovative strategies to equip you with the knowledge and inspiration to take your organization to new heights. Now, let's get started. I'm Al Hartley, and you know, today, um, for today's episode, you know, we've been thinking a lot about leadership at uh EMC and in our firm, uh, in particular when it comes to searches. And, you know, in recent years, at least, my assumptions about leadership have been put to the test. You know, we've been asked to work with organizations on designing leadership structures, usually after a major departure. Um, and so a lot of arts organizations have started to have multiple leaders at the helm, you know, where at least the tradition that I come from uh and our firm comes from in arts organizations, a lot of theaters have an executive director, an artistic director, sort of two people who are holding that leadership uh structure. Um, you know, and now there's really some questions about, you know, maybe adding multiple leaders, you know, into that uh leadership structure. And so it got me wondering why, how do you decide a leadership model? You know, why would you have more than one or two leaders? Um, who are these leaders? You know, and as my colleague Leandro told me recently, what problem are we trying to solve in this sort of shared leadership piece? So I thought of no two better people to talk to uh than two folks who had recently done a whole series on the subject of shared leadership, uh Devin Berkshire and Miranda Gonzalez. Y'all welcome. Thanks for joining me.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks, Al.
SPEAKER_00:You know it. It's good to see you both. Um, you know, uh as we get started in this or in this conversation, I just want to talk or have you both talk a little bit about yourselves and in particular how you came to this project of shared leadership, um, you know, in this topic around shared leadership. You know, Miranda, I wonder if you'd start and then Devin, I'll kick it over to you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty sure Devin and I will say the same thing. Um Devin is the one who reached out and asked and said, I've been thinking about this idea. And I thought about um you because I had just co-chaired TCG, the conference there, and my organization, Urban Theater Company, actually participated in hosting a conversation around decolonizing shared leadership. And uh Devin and I had had many conversations, and she also talked to um my fellow uh you know leadership team, Ivan Vega and Tony Bruno, uh, about what the conversation would be. And that's really why I said yes to it. I loved our conversations that we had had, and and Devin was really clear on knowing that there was a necessity to have something archived around this particular subject. And I was excited to join because you know, I really loved my experience working with Devin, and I was like, great, yes, I trust you. What are we gonna say?
SPEAKER_00:You know, I like that. I like that, especially you know, thinking about trust and Devin, they seem to be synonymous with one another, uh, at least in my experience of working with Devin as well. Um, Devin, I'm curious for you because you, you know, of course, had been a part of theater communications group. You thought for a conference this was like a good conversation to have. I'm curious maybe for you why at that time, and again, sort of overlapping with Miranda on it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, I I planned the TCG conference from 2012 to 2024. So it was something like 13 conferences by the time I was done. And for the last several years, like since pre-COVID, um, one of the most in-demand conversations that people wanted to have more was about shared leadership because there were more and more theaters adopting new shared leadership models. Um, and we didn't have, we ended up having a few in Chicago in 2024, but for a little while we didn't have anything on the docket. And when I had met Miranda and her colleagues at Urban Theater on one of our site visits, they kind of floated this idea of doing something around decolonizing shared leadership. And then as the session started floating in, I didn't see anything from them. And I ended up just going after them and being like, I talked to you all about your shared leadership model. We talked about you doing a conversation around decolonizing shared leadership. Can we can we do that? I mean, I don't know if you were still planning on proposing, but I'd really like that conversation to still happen. And we kind of, you know, we went from there, and that was actually pretty close to the conference. But you know, even after talking with Miranda about what conversations they had after I put that to them around their own model and how they wanted to talk about it with the field. I mean, I knew Rando was the exact right partner for this project. And frankly, after I left TCG was kind of the perfect time to do it because I had I had all these thoughts around it, and curating a Howl Around series around it after leaving TCG was probably more appropriate than while I was still at TCG. So um it was it was the right time as I had the time and space to really think about it and spend time on it. And it did take some time. I had no idea how long it would take, but it took a long time.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it takes some time to put those series together and the people together and the writing together and the framework, you know, of how you're gonna have this dialogue. Um, and so I'm you know, that what's fascinating to me around you know, you both coming together in this conversation is that it does feel like even back in 23 or 2024, there was almost this peak moment of really thinking about you know shared leadership. Should it be, you know, one person that we typically think of in the head of an organization, that like singular CEO where all vision runs from high. Um, and then you have typically in the theater model, you know, that managing director and artistic director, you know, having some sharedness around vision, but also administration and operations. And now really thinking about all right, is it is it three co-directors who were leading this company? Um, is it an artistic collective or an ensemble plus a managing director? Um, is it four plus leaders? So it leads me to to ask, you know, maybe Miranda, you talk a little bit about what's that model at Urban Theater Company, you know, that you all work in, maybe as a kind of microcosm tour to, you know, what a shared or multiple leadership model can look like.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's a really great question. And I think what I want to start off with is the reason behind why we decided to embark on it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, we were an ensemble organization prior to and uh went through an extensive time of reevaluating that structure and then quickly recognized that unless we were going to engage in individual development and we were going to really tap into how it is that we approach leadership as individuals, that we couldn't really decide on what a structure was at that time. Right. So like we did what I like to call slow work, where we slowed it down, we had conversations, we took the time to assess where the organization was, and then you know, had a conversation with our board about what the intentionality of really calling ourselves a shared leadership was. Yeah, I think we were really intentional about being an anti-racist organization, even as people of color, right? Because we can subscribe to certain values that perpetuate harm and that and that further allow folks to feel or it for us to land as if we are becoming our own oppressors. And so we did a lot of slow work. We did a lot of intentional work around what our own core values were. Um, and we also allowed the space for us to say, hey, this is when I'm gonna call you in at this moment because I feel like we're not with an integrity of what we stated our core values were. And in that space, we also recognized that we couldn't change titles because it was too new to folks who were outside of the organization and to our funders and major gift owners on what it meant to share, be a shared leader. So there was an interesting time where our funders were like, I don't know if our board of trustees will know what that is. We think it's really great that that's what you want to do, and we think you should continue to do that. And we also think that you should stay to your to the titles that you have, titles that are recognizable.
SPEAKER_00:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:So when we stated that it was shared leadership, I don't think that was even um the way we led with the conversation. We led with a conversation of we want to decolonize and decentralize power in this org. And in decentralizing power, how then do we move as an organization? How does that look to each other? How does that look externally? And through a strategic planning, we really sat down and just focused on the delta of our core values and then said, okay, where where do we meet? Where do they look different? What is it that we need for each other? And how do we practice our own authentic selves in the presence of external people and as well as internal folks who are involved with the org? Really long answer, but I think it's like really important to state the slow work that has to happen.
SPEAKER_00:I I think that slow work piece is key. I want to pin that for just a second to come back eventually to it. You know, uh, Devin, I wonder if you have a response later, but then I have a follow-up for you too.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I think the slow work is a running through line in the series because the groups that we talked to and who um wrote some of the pieces, everyone kind of comes back to that, that there is some deep cultural, mission-oriented, values-oriented work that the organization has to pause and make time for, that a lot of organizations are not prepared to pause and make time for. Um, but that work has to happen for that transition to shared leadership to be, in our minds, successful and really authentic and values aligned. And if that work doesn't happen, then something important inevitably gets missed. And that's when things start to feel like they are they're getting more and more misaligned as the model moves along in the process. Um, but I think that's you know, that's something I was hoping we were gonna talk a little bit about was the time that needs to be made. And not every organization makes that time, but the organizations that we talk to that um that wrote some of the pieces and organizations I've talked to in my work at TCG, you know, I think it tends to be a more successful experiment if they are making that crucial organization time, but there's often so much urgency attached to it that that time isn't made the way it should. So yeah, support for that phrase of slow time, slow work.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it goes back to I remember reading in you all's intro article around, you know, this opposite of move fast and break things. And it feels like maybe five years ago, I would say five or six years ago, when diversity, inclusion, and equity were really coming back into conversations, you know, much more fervently, you know, much more around what are some of Miranda? I think you pointed to those values that you state and the actions you're gonna take alongside those values. Um, and I think some folks figuring, hey, an action you can take is actually decentralizing power, decolonizing power, you know, to have multiple leaders or multiple leadership structure. Um, you know, I I mean my take on a little bit on that would be that most people decided to move fast and break things um and say, we're gonna do this shared leadership structure, and be like, whoa, okay, what what does that mean? You know, um, so I'm curious maybe if either of you can talk about um maybe how your your perspective on what I feel like is kind of a fad conversation of, well, do we have three leaders all of a sudden or four leaders all of a sudden? That's what some of these other places are doing, and we might need to do it too, without what it seems, any kind of recognition of is this what we need to do? Does this actually value align with who we've been and why? You know, so I'm curious if you've seen it, you know. I guess another piece for me is have you also seen successfully someone doing that slow work or stories of that slow work? And then on the opposing side, you know, maybe if you've heard someone move or a person moving too fast, and what are they making a mistake and moving too fast in? I gave you a lot there. So wherever you want to start, forgive me.
SPEAKER_01:I think I have a lot to say. Uh and I and I'm pretty sure a lot of what you said resonates with Devin as well, just with the conversations that we had at the beginning of coming together and curating the series. I'm going to connect to first that moving fast and breaking things. Um I I think that's a really interesting analogy. There's something that I say often when I speak on panels or when I conduct any effective leadership consultancy uh training, and it is your organization and the culture within your organization is a reflection of the leadership. So uh if we're in a state where you are creating an environment that feels anxiety or it feels uh contentious, uh full of judgments, or a lot of hearsay, right? That is a reflection of the leadership that is that is literally a modeled behavior of what is happening in the organization. And when you then add to the mix, and that's in a regular normal hierarchical situation, and then you add and decide, hey, we're actually gonna split this role into three people. The culture that already existed is now going to get that much more complex. It is now going to feel like it has been accelerated because you're also trying to adjust to what those new parties are uh intending to do, the vision that they have and what that looks like. And I'm only naming one perspective, right? Like there's also the perspective of out external pressures that come in when people do decide to move to this to this model, right? And the external pressure is just a trend, as you said, or a fad that the other folks have been watching, and they're like, well, this is what we want, but this is what we suggest you do. And that actually does a disservice to the organization because you haven't even conducted a climate culture survey on where it is that they are at the moment.
SPEAKER_03:Where are you right now?
SPEAKER_01:How does the organization really view the leadership in the moment? And and how honest is that is that survey gonna be? What do those sessions look like, you know, in that conversation with the different stakeholders and then decide whether or not you're even ready. So the moving fast and breaking things can look or land to a lot of outside folks who are thinking about disruption in a certain way. It can land like, yes, they're about to disrupt what is occurring. And the way that it happens actually happens internally, is it could be extremely harmful. And I'm not just talking about the whole organization as a whole, I am talking about how that also lands on the leaders. And what I have seen occur, right? When with my own client base and and what that looks like um over at Culture Change Lab. And it it is like, whoa, we did not really think this through. Now we have all parties that are feeling anxiety, and all parties are feeling like they're failing. So there is that as well. Um, I don't want to talk too much because I feel like I'm over talking, you know. So I wanted to just cover that particular portion and I'll hand it over to Devin.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Devin, what are your some of your either reactions around that moving too fast? You know, we're not really thinking, you know, is it thinking critically? Is it trying to do an assessment first around what to do here? Sort of what sorry, what what do you think there?
SPEAKER_02:I think it is thinking critically. I think it's doing deep culture work. Um, kind of like I was talking about before. But, you know, when Miranda and I first started talking about this topic for the purposes of the series, we talked about how it really seemed like there was an uptick in theaters adopting it um in 2020 and kind of beyond, with uh with all the anti-racist statements that were coming out and a lot of the other kind of DEI related trends. Um and there was a flurry of activity that felt very kind of reactionary. And I think that that happens with a lot of work that's kind of related or stems out of anti-racism work or DEI work, especially in white-led theaters, where there are important deep conversations and cultural work that needs to happen from the ground up that often gets missed in the interest of the theater kind of doing something a little more public and something that feels very innovative. And um, and the innovation, I think, of the kind of tech industry is where the move fast break and break things um language comes from. And so I think we associate it with disruption and innovation, and we want to do something bold. But I absolutely agree with Miranda in that what our conversations, I think the conclusions that we came to were that your boldness, you're kind of you're sacrificing the health of your organizational culture on the altar of innovation and bold, hasty decision making. Um, and often this can be driven by boards, it can also be driven by consultants who are working with theaters on leadership transitions. I'm sure not you, Al. But um, but you know, I think folks who I mean, I've seen it. I think Miranda has talked to you know many companies who have been through this, where again, it's those external forces that often I think theaters are feeling the pressure around and um and not taking the time to pause to talk to all of their internal stakeholders as to you know what the conversations are that they should really be having. Because what we also named is that it was starting to feel like these shifting leadership models were becoming like a band-aid to deeper problems.
SPEAKER_00:And yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And and one of the the things that we name in our series is that one of the surest ways to fail at this model is to adopt it as a solution to deeper organizational issues. And and I think again, that happens with a lot of EDI work or DEI work, um, in that we kind of think we can just do, you know, put the external thing on and kind of tie the bow on it, and and we're presenting a new and improved version of the organization. But when the deep work hasn't been done, I think is when the organization starts to fracture from the inside.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I I I love this these ideas this idea around really doing some deep and careful work rather than it just being a band-aid over something. Um, and it feels like a part of that band-aid was something Miranda, you and I talked a little bit about between shared leadership and shared responsibility, you know, like it is trying to some like I love that distinction to me because it sounds like all right, is this about the leadership and steering of the ship? Or is it about deciding, you know, who's the first officer versus who's down, you know, like raking the coals into the furnace, you know, to make the ship go go, right? Like you don't suddenly need a shared leadership model on a ship because you've got someone who does really well at being the first officer and someone who does really well mining, you know, sort of that furnace and coal area. But I wonder if you could you could just touch on that a little bit between shared leadership and shared responsibility.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm only gonna touch on on a certain perspective of it just because I feel like I could go on and on about the differences between the two and the approach. And it's I want to be really clear there is no right or wrong about whether or not it's shared leadership or shared management.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:There really is no right or wrong. It's about being honest, the organization being honest with themselves on what it is they're doing. Right? It's about saying, listen, we realize this executive director role has a lot of responsibility, wears too many hats, they wear too many hats, and it has also caused a lot of um imbalance in work-life situations. So we don't want to do that anymore. So we think that we have to create a co-experience so that way the responsibilities can be split and people can be happier, right? Our goal is to make the organization or make our leadership uh make them in a place where it's a healthier uh example of what it means to manage and steer the ship, as you said. Just say that.
SPEAKER_04:Right?
SPEAKER_01:Okay, great. I understand really clearly as a person where it is that you are as an organization, and now you're trying to figure that out. But when you start using terms like, okay, we're gonna do this because we really feel that this is a part of our inclusivity work or this is a part of our equity work, then we only see on the outside that it's a split responsibility and it lands on a lot of the staff. Like, I still don't feel autonomous. I still don't feel like I'm being empowered or trusted in my role from from that, um, from the this equity lens of shared leadership, right? They didn't do the slow work. I feel like all of a sudden, now I don't know who to go to for what. Um now I right and all of that form of confusion then creates a lot of assumptions.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_01:So whenever we assume, we know that then that's harm is like lurking right underneath, right underneath. So when it comes to shared leadership, it is um an inward-out experience. It's like, how do I do the slow work and the deep work that we're talking about? How do I communicate where I'm at? How then do I say to each uh staff person, stakeholder how I need what the needs are that need to be met, right? A needs assessment of like, what does everybody need? How can I show up for you? This is my role in this. There's a lot of ways in which, for me personally, leadership is embodiment. And that, and right, you have to embody what the values are, what the statements are that the organization is making, what the mission, uh, the mission uh is stating out there, what the vision is, and then you have to make room for everyone else. And that's where it gets a little hard, and it's a fine line. It's like a fine line between I'm just gonna manage my responsibilities and delegate out, and then, or I'm going to really make the room to make you feel like you're in charge. And when we are together, we are strategically thinking together about the org. Like we are together putting that mission forward. Yeah, we are also calling each other in every time we misstep. Yeah, right. Like that's leadership. That's how we're gonna get through this conflict together. I may feel uncomfortable in the moment, but that's okay. I'm gonna work on it. I'm gonna name what it is that I'm going through. And all of this is going to be because of the mission of the organization. I'm gonna say when, oh, it feels it feels like right now you're you know in a space that not only are you overwhelmed, but you're hastily making decisions. And how often do we give people who are not in leadership roles or even within leadership roles that bravery? We don't do that, right? But leadership, if you are leading a group, they will feel brave enough to say, hi, uh, I really think the way that you're showing up is X, Y, Z, and you don't take it personally, you take it as an adjustment.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I need I need to adjust. Understood, totally open to that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there's something there seems to be something too about thinking above yourself as an individual leader and really thinking about the greater good of the organization, you know, and that maybe part of you know, one of the tactics that I sort of took away from the series is just how much you have to learn, kind of like in any functioning relationship. How do you communicate? Where are the tension points? Why are those tension points perhaps that are informed by your own past in leadership roles or working with leaders or collaborating in a thing like theater? Um, and it makes me curious, and and Devin, maybe you can can do a little bit of this around are there were there other tactics or things that people talked about in the series that you would lift up as if you really want to explore this or you really want to know some of the ins and outs of this, you know. I I think about movement theater company talking about how much they needed to understand just how they disagree on an individual level, but also even in relationship with one another. Um, and that that takes an amount of work for yourself, but also working with the other people that you might be actively disagreeing with in the moment.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, I think movement, and I think maybe the folks sit here talked about this a little bit too, but we've talked about this a lot. Um, I think what we are talking about is leaders that have to be willing to unlearn a fair amount of what they've probably come up with believing in terms of the visionary leadership model and what comes along with that. Miranda and I talked. About how a lot of this kind of maps onto white supremacy culture. So a lot of these kind of and we didn't use the term white supremacy culture in our piece. I think Alex Meta might have used it in hers. And I will lift Alex's up as the piece where if an organization is listening to this, wondering what we mean by slow, deep work. Alex's piece outlines that work really well.
SPEAKER_00:That's great.
SPEAKER_02:And in very thoughtful, careful detail. So I wanted to lift that up. But yeah, the folks at movement, I mean, they talked about vulnerability, they talked about trust building, they talked about leaning into healthy conflict. And these are all things that are in kind of direct opposition with white supremacy culture, with visionary patriarchal leadership models, um, that a lot of folks in the field have just been trained to, you know, to work within and have, you know, have a lot of that has become ingrained. So there's unlearning that has to happen if this is a transition that you're gonna make. And you, and if you're not kind of willing to do that unlearning, again, it's a like a lot of anti-racist work. If you're not willing to do that unlearning, then you're just sort of gonna be reinscribing old harmful patterns, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that look like that takeaway from both of you all of unlearning, you know, of really examining yourself, you know, and also realizing it's not just putting another person here and being like, we're done, we checked it off. We we've got a the third person here who's gonna work on development and marketing, and that's it. That's gonna be their one focus. But actually, how does it change the kinetic energy in an organization with its people, the relationships it has with people? I know I've certainly got in from production managers who all of a sudden panic and say, Oh my god, am I gonna have a third person? I've got to run a decision through. What does that mean? How does that affect my timeline? How does that affect my budget? You know, so I think you know, lifting that piece up of like unlearn, unlearn, unlearn.
SPEAKER_02:You know, yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, I think that's great. Uh, I know we're at time or close to time. Um, I want to leave off with a final question that we that we've typically been asking, but you know, you've all been talking about shared leadership. I certainly want to shout out, you know, for listeners, please go, we'll put it in the show notes uh to read this series of articles that Devin and Miranda have curated. Um, it's a really excellent deep dive and some different perspectives about how to look at this really important question as we consider some of the next leaders in theaters and in arts organizations across the country. Um, so certainly go read that. But curious, Miranda and Devin, anything you want to leave listeners with of what you might be reading, listening to pod-wise or music-wise, or maybe watching TV show or movie-wise, you know, anything culturally, you know, that you want to leave, folks.
SPEAKER_01:I'm thinking about what secession planning looks like for BIPOC founded organizations. That's where I've been. What do transitions look like? Um, how do we keep it afloat in this interesting time that we're in? Yep. Um, how do we band together? Uh, how do we really transcend our own egos to be able to move our organizations forward in a way that is not only healthy, but in a way that has longevity and last generations? So that's really where my mind has been.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, yeah. Especially you talk about like where that transition has been for predominantly white institutions, BIPOC and institutions of color, cultural institutions, also really feeling that shift uh from one generation to the next, uh, for sure, for sure. Devin, anything you're you're reading, watching, thinking about right now, listening to right now?
SPEAKER_02:Well, piggybacking on Miranda, real quick, just so I'm just gonna keep lifting the series, but we had an amazing conversation with some BIPOC leaders on the HowlRound live stream part of the series. And I mean, if you want to hear some amazing legacy leaders talk about shared leadership and cultural practice and transitions, I mean, that was some some brilliant, brilliant wisdom being dropped in that conversation. So lifting that up as something for folks to watch, but um completely separately, I I've been thinking it a lot about AI. And I know that um Al, your uh your consultancy, you you all have been doing, I think, a little bit of um podcasting around AI, right? So um I will lift up an episode. I I listened to the New York Times Daily Podcast almost on a daily basis, and they just did an episode where all this new research came out about how AI actually interacts with the human brain and the places that it can take, you know, um people in terms of how they feel like they're connecting to these entities. And it just got me really thinking, I'll probably write a piece on this, but um I feel like theater is one of those art forms that's like the antidote to the disconnection that AI, which I actually use AI, I'm not anti-AI.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, sure.
SPEAKER_02:AI is a new one of these emerging technologies that's going to continue to disconnect us from each other. Um, and that's kind of what this episode of the daily was about about um Chad GPT. But uh, and I was thinking theater is really one of those art forms. It's gonna be one of those cultural touchstones that we need to keep that human connection, you know, to keep our connections stable, to keep us connected to one another. So um I was thinking about it in the context of our art. So nothing to do with shared leadership, but no, I love it.
SPEAKER_00:You know, listen, it we if between both of you all's, you know, topics, like I think those can one be their own series in their own right, you know, but also, you know, some topics that we're interested in too around secession planning, you know, overall, but especially in cultural institutions, but also this AI piece. I mean, Leandro's actively asking what is human, um, and I think really having some deep conversations about how theater can keep that liveness, but also infusing and integrating the technology, you know, uh for the future as well. It's like don't get left behind. Um, and I think it's the same around the shared leadership piece, you know, like yes, think deeply about it, think carefully about it, you know, certainly consider it, you know, and you know, know that it is for some people, it isn't for other people. And that was another big takeaway from reading you all series too, um, and hearing from so many different, if you also want to see a series that has so many different thought leaders um around this particular subject, again, Miranda and Devin's uh HowlRound series on the evolution of shared leadership in theater, um, you know, up on HowlRound's website. We'll certainly post it on our show notes. Um, and feel like that, you know, even though you know this is one conversation that I feel like we'll be back together again, you know, talking a bit more about this evolution and how it continues to play out. So, Miranda, Devin, thank you both so much for coming on, talking to me for a little bit. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you, Al. I had so much fun. Thanks, Al. Yeah, this was great.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, thanks, y'all. You know, really appreciate it.