Moving Forward with EMC
Co-founders Al Heartley, Tiffany Vega, and Leandro Zaneti gather to discuss current topics facing non-profit arts leaders and organizations.
Moving Forward with EMC
Building shared leadership at Theater Mu: Service, Sustainability, and Community in the Twin Cities
We welcome Theater Mu’s new artistic director, Fran, and managing director, Anh Thu, for a candid talk about service-driven leadership, sustaining bold art in a tight funding climate, and building trust as co-leaders. The conversation moves from search lessons to advocacy, legacy, and why creating new stories matters for AAPI communities
We talk openly about money from sunsetting grants, consolidating foundations, and why “profit for nonprofit” thinking matters when artist labor is too often treated as an afterthought. Together they map how a theater rooted in AAPI stories responds to immigration raids, visa barriers for artists, casting controversies, and local tragedies without losing artistic ambition or community trust.
Welcome to Moving Forward with Evolution Management Consultants, the podcast where we dive deep into the dynamic world of nonprofit arts management. I'm your host, Al Hartley, and I'm thrilled to have you join us on this journey today. In each episode, we'll explore the ever-evolving landscape of the nonprofit art sector. We'll bring you thought-provoking discussions and innovative strategies to equip you with the knowledge and inspiration to take your organization to new heights. Now, let's get started. It's the leadership at Theater Mu, who we worked with, you know, now over a little over a year ago, in starting with them to find their next artistic leader in the Minneapolis Twin Cities based company. And, you know, that led eventually to the appointment of Fran Da Leon, you know, back in May. And has certainly been transitioning into the role of the artistic director, you know, as well as forming a partnership uh with the managing director Anh Thu Pham. And so wanted to bring them in for a conversation, you know, kind of do a bit of reflection, talk about the present, what we can think through, you know, about the future. Um, you know, and especially since also there's been some different conversations we've been having internally about shared leadership, how they find forming a new partnership together, um, especially in this moment, um, in the economic, political, social climate that we find ourselves in. Um, but I'm thrilled to be joined by Fran and Anh Thu. Hey to you both. Great to see you both.
Fran De Leon:Hi, it's great to see you too.
Al Heartley:Indeed, indeed. You know, I um I've certainly been following, you know, you all on socials. Fran, you are really like on the socials, you know. I I I actually love that, you know, it as you as a leader. And some of that has really been, you know, around the uh opening and starting the run of your show, Maybe You Could Love Me. Um, so Greg, congratulations on that first. Uh, and curious just to get some reactions to both of you. At least on socials, it looks like you're getting a lot of love. Um, but how are y'all feeling about it as a season kicks off, you know, uh in this year?
Fran De Leon:Uh I think it started off with a bang. Um, it's been very exciting to see how this play has been received by the audiences of the Twin Cities. Um, it was very exciting that I was able to do my first artistic director opening night speech with this show. Um that was really lovely. And to be met by the community with an incredible amount of warmth and um openness and excitement um for you know my my relocation over there and uh taking over the artistic leadership. So it feels great, it feels right. Um, and certainly this show um with what you know with what it says and how people are accepting it. Anh Thu and I have talked about this several times of how it's fairly specific, the show in terms of who it's representing. However, it's so universal that people have been coming up to us in the uh in the lobby saying, I get like I get it. That's so much a part of me, even though you know, in terms of the box that the uh the play is in, they don't necessarily, you know, meet that criteria, but they totally get it and they totally relate to it. And I think that's the really um potent um type of artwork that we can make that relates across all sorts of boundaries. We certainly need it as a country.
Al Heartley:So absolutely, absolutely, you know, especially where you can find some commonality and common ground these days in a specific story, but also yielding, you know, that universal peace. Um, thank you for that, Fran. Um, too, how about you? You know, this is now is this your sixth season at Mure?
Anh Thu Pham:Will this be your sixth season? Yeah, yeah. I I've been here since um summer of 2020. So we're we're starting my sixth season. And yeah, I thought the opening of Maybe You Can Love Me Having Fran was great. And you know, we uh you know we announced Fran, you know, late spring, and then we've had a number of you know, of events with Fran and you know, some private events, some semi-private events with some of our you know, our closer community members. But the opening of Maybe You Can Love Me was really the first public, you know, introduction of Fran to the community. And I think our community saw what we saw in Fran when we hired Fran, which is somebody who is so down to earth and so accessible. You know, Fran saying something like, if you see me in the skyways or you see me in the street looking lost, I need friends, you know. And as you said, Fran is very prevalent in social media. I'm, you know, as a managing director, my work is a little bit more internal. And also like, I'm not as present, you know. I might like once a month saying, like, here are all the things I've done this month, you know. Um, and you know, like I hope that people also think I'm accessible as well, but like you won't see me on the socials as much, but like you will hopefully see me in community and also please like stop and say hi to me as well. But um, but you know, I had so many people come up to me and they're just like, Oh, it's great to see Fran, you know, like when is she here? And they're um, I think our community is also so excited to have Fran here. So, and I'm I'm of course also excited to have Fran here. And it's been great getting to know her better through these last couple of months as we've been working together more. Uh, you know, as Fran said, you know, she's my my now my new work wife.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Al Heartley:That that sounds like the beginnings of a good partnership and a great one, you know. Um, and no, that's great. And again, congratulations to you both, especially, you know, for for listeners who don't know about Mu, you know, it's really a focus on Asian American, Asian Pacific Islanders stories, you know, in the Twin Cities, but also nationally and even globally, you know, in terms of that perspective. Um, and so being able to bring that to the stage, bring that in the middle of the Midwest, you know, in Minneapolis, uh, was something that I certainly was drawn to, you know, when we first started, you know, talking and beginning to work together. Um, and so I've kind of gotten to maybe not the end of the story, but like the continuation of this story, um, you know, with you all opening this show, beginning a season together, beginning a partnership together. Um, and I sort of want to take a bit of a step back to the middle of this story. Um, you know, kind of going back into the spring and even early 2025. Um, you know, as we were in the middle of this artistic director search, um, you know, artistic director searches are ones that I really, you know, yes, enjoy running, um, but also certainly have talked with Antu about this and have mentioned to others, you know, they can be so challenging in their own ways internally for the organization, for the candidate going through. And so I thought it was a good moment to, you know, kind of get some of that side of a search, you know, and a process, you know, selecting the next artistic leader, you know, of a company that's really going to be driving a vision in partnership with a managing director. So I guess I'd go first to you, Fran, around, you know, could you talk a bit about maybe, you know, as you were coming in the middle of this search, you were really getting to know Mu, you were thinking about an artistic director role. You know, what were some of your reflections or or thoughts as you were going through and saying, hey, this is the role I want to do? This is the place that I want to be.
Fran De Leon:Well, yeah, it was very interesting because it felt uh quite cosmic in terms of the timing. Um, I was in the right place in my personal life. I was in the right place in my professional life to really consider this. Um, you know, I have a son who is now 21 and can can exist without mom in the uh same state. Um so you know, that made uh a huge difference. It would be uh quite a different story if I was having to relocate um, you know, more than just myself. Um, but having, you know, already these inklings and feet, I had this feeling like, oh, I think I'm gonna be moving out of LA at some point, which is strange because I never really um thought I would. Um and um I've I always saw myself kind of jumping around from city to city, from gig to gig, because that's what you do as a freelance director. Um, but when this came around, I I really had to question is this uh the route that I'm supposed to take. Um a lot of the times the route that I want to take is not the one that I'm supposed to. So I'm very cognizant of really listening to signs. And again, the timing was right, um, even though obviously it's a big change for me um going into um a different state, a different culture altogether. Um, let's face it, West Coast, Midwest, and East Coast, very different cultures there. Um and and even with the specifically to the AAPI community, it's a different demographics that are in the Twin Cities for the West, uh, you know, as opposed to the West Coast. And I knew that in order to do this, I had to make sure that I was open enough to come in there with a a little bit well, with a lot of humility to say this is a community that I don't know, and um and I may not feel comfortable in right away, and that's okay, and that is all part of the growth process. Um that it was a company that I'd never worked with directly. So also, you know, that work culture, um, and and you know, and now being in the job, really seeing, oh, okay, this is a little bit of how it works differently. And so um, and that that is always so important to me where I don't feel, and I'm the same way as a director for production, I don't come in and say, this is how it's gonna be. Um, I really try to lead by seeing, you know, who is there, what everyone is bringing into the uh the equation, um, and where I can myself learn and grow from the experience.
Al Heartley:Yeah, that's great. That that's really great. And I think that real spirit of being able to think about, you know, you know, maybe not just totally thinking of what do I think is needed here, but being receptive to, like you mentioned, a community that you didn't know, um, you know, at least that deeply, and coming from the West Coast as well. And I was always, you know, so fascinated and so um, you know, grateful for you, Fran, and how open you were around, you know, this kind of change. Um, you know, because I think for any candidate, you know, and any person thinking about leadership, you know, not only to come into a leadership role, but to also uproot one's life, you know, and circumstances in order to do it, um, you know, takes a level of bravery and takes a level of um clarity about one's life and where one's life might go. Um, I love what you said around like, you know, cosmically, you know, this is where I'm supposed to be, you know, as opposed to sometimes the places that I want it to be, um, you know, was maybe not where I was supposed to be. Um, so I think that's beautiful. Um, Anh Thu you know, you and I were uh in the trenches with one another, uh very much together, you know, on the flip side of things, you know, probably in some ways that Fran certainly sees now, you know, but you know, us, you know, uh, especially for those listening, you know, as a firm, you know, we really have to have close contact with people within the organization. Um, because it's not just as simple as here's a job description, do an interview, come and talk to people. Okay, you're hired, you know, that that's the ideal, you know, and and sort of simplistic way of putting it. Um, but also I find it to be usually a um a learning moment for me, you know, as uh as a search consultant, but also really digging inside an organization, uh, and also for the organization. So onto I'm curious for you if you have reflections kind of on the other side, you know, the dust has kind of settled around, you know, what was a big process, you know, for Mu and for the Twin Cities. Uh, and I'm curious what you kind of take away from that, you know, will reflect about that.
Anh Thu Pham:Absolutely. I mean, I think I've been a part of other searches. Um, uh not been in the one of the primary roles of hiring, but I've been close to other searches, I've been on search committees. But I think, you know, we identify this when we started the search. I think both the the board at Mu and the search committee, as you and I had identified, really didn't have a set idea or a picture in mind of who we wanted for the artistic director. But I felt that as we continued on the search, both as um the state of the United States and as uh we got to know each of the candidates, the idea of who we wanted as a candidate started to gel. And um, and I think as those competencies kind of rose to the top of the candidates that we had, um, I think that that information and you know, like in the search committee started becoming more clear in terms of who the type of qualities that they wanted in the artistic director. And I think, you know, like once we got past a certain stage, there was definitely like so many like interested parties. I'm so glad that we did the town hall to hear from both our artists and our community of the qualities that they wanted in an artistic director, as well as from the board, the staff. And um, and I think you know, some learnings from that as once we get closer, people having had some input, they get so invested in um in who the artistic director is. And then there's it, you know, I think we talked about this, it goes like really slow, and then all of a sudden it gets really, really fast that process. And so then it's how to manage expectations, manage, you know, people's deep investment because you know, for Mu, we are really lucky that our community, our staff, our board, our artists, and our um our communities in general are so invested in theater moo and how do we uh you know appropriately and steward all of that, um, all of that love for this company and make people feel like they um their voices are heard appropriately. So that's one of those learnings I think that we've really come from this. And I think you and I have had some really wonderful conversations about like how can we make sure that we are making um making sure that people know like their level of um voices and like what they can expect in their roles.
Al Heartley:Yeah, I think that piece around such a deep investment. Um, and and Fran, I've mentioned to this to on too even during the search of, you know, as much as you know, I respect the managing director role, you know, I come from that managerial background, you know, often enduring searches, you know, yes, people care, certainly who is running the managerial side, you know, but really the artistic side is where you see a community, you see people who have been, you know, impacted by Mu's great educational programs, by the shows you all do, you know, the communities that you all serve, um, you know, that really trying to hear everybody and say, you know, how do you turn the word into flesh and make flesh appear? Um, you know, and I think, you know, as as you know, we went through the process, like you mentioned onto um, you know, I I think about my mother-in-law when whenever we go to a new restaurant and she's sort of like, I don't know what to get here. She'll she'll Google things and see photos of the food and say, like, okay, I want that. Now I know I want the shrimp and grits from here. Um, and so there are moments that you just don't know until you actually get there, you know. Um, and maybe I'll I'll go back to you with this question, Fran, of like, you know, what what sort of finally crystallized it for you, especially since you talk about now or when you were pointed about how this is such a call to arms. And what I admit is that a learning from me that that you mentioned on to was doing a search in the transition of an administration in the United States where the playing field was suddenly so different from where we started the search. Um, and I think, Fran, you talking about that this was a real moment to say, hey, if someone asks me to serve, you know, I'm gonna serve. Um, you know, I'm curious how you felt in that moment or the crystallization of that for you.
Fran De Leon:Uh I was just having this conversation with another artistic director about how I really see uh theater and my role in theater as one of service. Um I've talked several times about how I was schooled by the rebel nuns of Vatican II who um, you know, fought for their own human rights as educators, um, as well as as women's equality, um, you know, in during the 60s when I mean it was really, really obviously uh well, unfortunately, it's coming close to that again, isn't it? Um but uh you know their fight was always uh for for us to be good human beings to each other and to know when we are of service to to mankind um and how to do that artistically. And so that's always been how I've approached everything. And so for me coming in and in I remember walking my dog around and just kind of all of a sudden really taking in my city and going, Oh, am I am I okay to leave what is now my home and has been home and find a new home and find a new route and a new path? And this voice just kind of uh said because sometimes it's not always about just you. And it really hearkened back to um my philosophy of being of service. And as an artist, I do that through theater making. Um it's my form of uh rebellion, um, it's my form of activism. Um, it's how I I feel we can really work towards an empathetic, uh, egalitarian society. Um, it's lofty goals, but uh it's what I feel that I I'm I'm here to do. And I think we're all here to do something in this world. So make use of of what you have, make use of your strengths and your gifts and your passion so that we can make this just uh you know um just a nicer world. That's honestly right now what I feel is such a priority. It it sounds so glib, but I feel that we've just forgotten how to be nice. And but in the road to being nice as artists, sometimes it is not nice at all. And sometimes it is m being much more jarring uh about things. And so, you know, uh I believe in that path as well of challenging folks to really see things in a different light.
Al Heartley:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I love one, that schooling piece of like fighting for rights, you know, and having a level of activism there and showing that in artistry. But like you mentioned, just trying to be nicer and having conversations together, you know, and formulating a space um in the twin cities, uh, in particular, around a community, seeing themselves and continuing to see themselves and how important that is, more important, you know, now, you know, in particular. Um and so I I Fran, I want to follow up a bit in terms of, you know, we have, you know, in a search a job description that kind of on paper says, this is what you're gonna do. You're gonna do some season planning, you're gonna partner with the AD, you know, you're gonna do some some community engagement and be a spokesperson. Um, but as you've transitioned into this role, you know, you were at Chautauqua over the summer, you know, you've suddenly done work not only in LA, but nationally. What have you come to understand about the role? You know, I know you're still early in it in some ways, you know, but what have you come to understand about what an artistic director is trying to do, not only on a macro level, but on a day-to-day level?
Fran De Leon:Sure. Um, you know, obviously the the big thing that everybody talks about right away when it comes to arts is the funding, uh, the budgeting. And so, you know, really having to examine how we can be creative about that funding. Um, nonprofits obviously are incredibly reliant on grants. And as we are seeing that, you know, for us, for us specifically, we have some grant sunsetting, but uh for the arts community in general, foundations are merging, awards are getting smaller. Um, and even on the individual donor side, there is, you know, a decline in terms of how much people are able to give with the economy being what it is.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Fran De Leon:So certainly looking at that and saying, okay, what do we do then in order to make ourselves more sustainable? And where are the points where we can look at earned income as artists? Because as artists, I I think a lot of the times, um, and this is something that I really love about the Twin Cities, is their value in people's work as artists. Um, in so many other places, you know, you're expected to do things just for free because this is gonna help your career. Well, I mean, we all know how that works, right? Um I'm not against volunteerism at all. Um, but in terms of um for us as artists, how do we generate some kind of earned income? Um, I believe in profit for nonprofit, so that again, you can make yourself uh sustainable. And in times like this when it's a little crunchy on the financial side, that you're still keeping yourself afloat and you're still keeping um your programs alive. Uh so that's certainly been something that that has is at the forefront. Um and the the relationships that are forged um really, you know, I I mean I I knew going into this, uh coming into a community and making those connections um obviously was a priority for me. Um, but really just being able to be fully present for each individual that I'm meeting. Um and and that things take uh more time. Somebody had told me that of, you know, if you're coming from LA and you're going to the Midwest, just know that like a 30-minute meeting in LA is an hour meeting in um the Midwest. So get yourself used to that. Um, which I'm actually like I I love. I love being able to sit and chat with folks and really getting to know them. Um, and then um learning the dynamics of the staff. Um, we have an incredibly wonderful, hardworking staff who is very passionate about theater moo and its mission and very much wanting to be a part of that, the machine of the vision as well. Um so that's been wonderful to say, to sit back and go, oh, okay, you know, sometimes as a director in general, you feel very isolated and alone. Um and to know that I don't have to take that route, you know, for one thing, having onto as my equal partner is is wonderful to be able to, you know, just shoot a quick text and go, oh my God, this thing is happening. I need you, I need you, you know, and um, and having it both ways of just then getting a text of like, okay, this is driving me crazy. I just need to talk to you about this, um, has been, you know, really, really wonderful. Um, someone had said to me, you know, you've been a cowboy for so long and you don't need to be. And I thought, wow, okay, I never thought of myself as that, but yeah, that sounds about right, you know. Um, yeah, so it's so adjusting, adjusting to that is uh uh has been something for me to to take in, but I also love the fact that, oh, I don't have to do everything.
Al Heartley:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that especially that one-on-one connection, and like you mentioned, the text of what does this mean? Can I talk to you about it? You know, how do we work through this? Um and it very much, you know, I I I really appreciate that answer because we talk so much in arts and culture around artistic directorships, managing directors, and you know, here's what they're supposed to do, here's what's supposed to happen. Um, you know, but I think hearing a little bit of that on the ground around relationship building, around getting to know the staff, you know, and around championing, you know, the art and figuring out the funding for the art, you know, are all things that we sort of know in the abstract. Um, you know, but I think hearing that specifically, you know, is really key. And, you know, on two, I want to turn to you, you know, because Fran mentioning that partnership. Um, and I remember even, you know, during the process, um, you know, you all having, you know, a dinner and suddenly it turns into this like, you know, near all nighter, you know, and being like, oh my goodness, no, don't meet for four or five hours. And yet, you know, that's where suddenly you find this kind of kinetic energy that really carries in a partnership. So, you know, I'm too I'm curious to get sort of your side as a manager of forming a partnership or trying to think about building and bringing in a partner, you know, in this particular moment, getting to know the organization and also understanding what you need in that partnership. You know, I I think, at least for me as a manager, sometimes I'll always think like, oh, artistic director, what do you need? What do you need? Can I can I get that for you? Can I make this happen for you? Without sometimes myself thinking, wait, as a manager, what might I need, you know, in order for this partnership to be successful?
Anh Thu Pham:Absolutely, excuse me. Um, absolutely. Hold on.
Al Heartley:You're good.
Anh Thu Pham:Um, no, I I don't know what's going on with my voice. Um, I I think absolutely that was something that was definitely prevalent in what I was thinking about when um when I met all of the final candidates. And um, and as you said, I've been in this position for a little while. So I've had a co-leader before. And um, and as you know, the person on the the search committee that has also been tasked with keeping the the staff thoughts in mind, one of the things that I also like carried with me was this was not just gonna be my co-leader, but also my co-leader in working with our staff. And so um, you know, like thinking about like who I was gonna bring on. I knew from my work with my previous um artistic director that um this was gonna be a person who was not only gonna be the artistic vision and the artistic voice of Theater Mu, and what were the competencies and what was like what was this person's vision of carrying our work forward and building on this work of the expansion of Theater MU's national work and recognition and the artistic work, but also somebody who I could work with as a partner because I knew how closely these two positions were going to have to work together. So I needed to like find somebody and recommend somebody who I thought had a really wonderful and strong vision for the company, and also somebody who I could work with as an equal partner. And knowing the world that we were going into, I knew that we had some grandson sighting. So I wanted somebody who had a really strong business acumen and also somebody I knew that like could the staff could, as much as me, go to and reach out to and trust uh to um to help co lead them because you know, as much as you know, the organizational structure is. I supervise directly some of the staff. They also work very closely, the marketing director, the um the communities and program of you know, manager with the education work actually works so much closer to um the artistic director that the staff need to be able to work with the artistic director. And so just kind of having someone who has a vision and has an idea on some of these areas. And so those are some of the factors that I was thinking about. And so when I was able to spend my marathon day with Fran in that um in that very cold Minnesota winter last year, which Fran has assured me since she's moving into Minnesota in the middle of the winter this year, that she's prepared for. That um that you know, that we, you know, we were able to have like a wonderful time just kind of getting to know each other as people. And I thought, you know, this is somebody who I could spend, you know, some time with. And that that first level of trust was already starting to be built that last winter.
Al Heartley:Yeah, especially building trust in. I think Fran, it was one of the colder days that we had you come in. I think it was like a 12 or February, yeah. You know, it was February, it was frigid. Even I remember calling Fran and saying, like, Fran, do you have a big coat? And she said, Yeah, I got a big coat. I I think I'm ready, I think I'm good, you know.
Anh Thu Pham:And if Fran's sister is listening, I think Fran should really get to take that coat. Um, France.
Fran De Leon:Thank you, thank you, Pia. Did you hear that?
Al Heartley:I mean, you talk about that grit in particular, you know, that Midwestern grit that folks have. It's what I've always been impressed with. Chicago, Minneapolis, you know, Detroit. There is this like, hey, no snow is gonna stop no show, you know, no cold is gonna stop no show, unless it's really serious, you know.
Anh Thu Pham:Yeah, well, I mean, as as Prince said, you know, the cold keeps the crazies out.
Al Heartley:That's right. Only the good sane people are like, we're gonna stay here and like make this happen and try this out, you know. Um, no, that's great. And what I what I love about you know, that again, what's so hard to quantify is that relationship piece in our industry. It is that can can I talk with this person? You know, can I, you know, come to this person with issues and challenges, you know, and disagreements. Um, you know, can I, you know, work through, you know, some visionary pieces here. Um, and so just the building blocks, you know, of that and making those building blocks really happen um is so so key. You know, Fran, I I wonder if you have any any reaction to around, you know, trying to work and understand that managerial side as an artistic director. You certainly talked about the the the funding side and the giving side, and I think that's really right, you know. Um, but I'm curious if there's, you know, maybe one other aspect that you're like, oh, I've got to really dig in with this managing director to figure this out.
Fran De Leon:Um yeah, in terms of uh, you know, additional programming that that we're looking at, um, you know, obviously we have the main stage shows, we have workshops, but we've been talking about uh, you know, again, going back to the idea of service and service to the community. What are some other programs that we can look into that are addressing the needs and the desires of the community? And so there are some things that we have in the works that I can't talk about yet that we are um negotiating. Um, but really um, you know, a couple other projects that are very pertinent to uh the current climate. Um the uh, you know, the the events that are are happening right now that are reminiscent of what has been specific to the Asian American community as we're talking about you know ICE detention centers and we're hearkening back to the Japanese and German camps of World War II, and we have a responsibility to address that. Um, we the responsibilities as well of um speaking on a national level, you know, when something like the casting of maybe happy ending is so upsetting to the Asian American community um at large, and where do we stand on that? And what are the actions that we're going to take when you have national tragedies um that uh are were very local to the Twin Cities making those statements and knowing that as an as an arts organization in the Twin Cities having to come forward and and again make make those statements of support, um, make those statements of where we stand, um, you know, in terms of gun control, in terms of trans rights, uh, in terms of immigrant rights. Um, you know, certainly with a great population of refugees in the twin cities, we can't sit idly by and say nothing of what is going on right now.
Al Heartley:Yeah, yeah. I think that's the unique intersection that Mu sits in in relation to, you know, no disrespect to them, but like the Guthrie, you know, or children's theater, that, you know, not to say they they maybe don't face those issues, but you all are at the center where some people say, Well, how are you gonna respond? You know, how are you gonna think about this moment? How do we protect our communities, you know, that are around uh the Twin Cities and even around Minnesota? Um, and I'm curious, maybe both of you can answer a bit of this around, you know, there certainly have been or felt to me over the last couple of months, you know, still a real sense of a kind of crisis, you know, locally, nationally, you know, um uh around some some various events that just feel like they've shook, you know, communities. Um and I'm curious though, you know, especially Fran, I go back to your piece around, you know, that service and call to arms. You know, are there certain battles or fights that you think we need to pay more attention to? But also on the flip side, do you see some opportunities there as well, you know, that present themselves, you know? So I if either one of you want to kick that off, I'm I'm open to it. But curious what you all see.
Anh Thu Pham:Yeah, um, I can start and if Fran, like if you want to touch on this, I think one of the things that I know that both Fran and I care very deeply about is our immigrant um communities. And um, for people who don't know, Minnesota's Asian American population is about 54% identified as immigrant or refugees. And um, and I know with the raids that are in that have been happening around the country, um, you know, like I think this is one of those things which we which I I will say just for myself, I care very deeply about. And um and I think Momo as a company is has been paying attention about too. And I think so often when people think about um immigration raids, they think about um the Latino community. But um, for many Asian Americans, this is something which also have been impacting many of us. And a number of Asians, um, not necessarily artists, but Asians around the country have been deported. And um, and a number have like a number of Vietnamese people, just for myself, have died in um in detainment. And that's something which I've been paying attention to. I think us as a community we've been paying attention to. I know that I've had some theater artists who reached out to me that we have um have had connections with, who asked me to write on their behalf for their visa applications. And so as we have um international students who've come to the United States, who have studied at colleges like Columbia at Yale Drama and who have wanted to stay in the country to continue to contribute to American theater and who are now running into problems with getting their visas to stay in this country. So now from from me as a theater producer, you know, are we then now going to be losing some of these voices in American theater because of the more stringent visa applications and visa conditions for people from certain countries as well? So that's definitely one of the major issues that I'm um I'm definitely paying attention to.
Al Heartley:Yeah, that that makes a ton of sense. You know, like like you said, that folks can see that on a national level, maybe being more towards the Latino or Latina community, but really seeing it on the ground in Minneapolis and beyond, you know, is also key too. Um, Fran, I'm curious to what do you think either on the the crisis side or the battle side or also on the opportunity side at this moment?
Fran De Leon:Um I think the opportunity is here for us as individuals to um make our statement of what is vital to uh to to our quality of life. Um for folks to really say, I'm gonna get behind this. Um I'm gonna support an artistic community because I mean it's it's a no-brainer. The studies show the quality of life, the mental health, our vitality, um, our education, our our social skills are better, are stronger when arts are very prevalent in a community. And I think very often, and myself included, will kind of rest back and say, okay, well, uh, I know for me, I know what I do, so I don't necessarily have to put in that much support elsewhere because this is my life. But I was very purposeful myself. I have uh I chose four theater companies um who I feel are doing you know the good work and making that commitment to say, I'm gonna make a monthly donation. Like I'm gonna step in. And if if I'm if I'm kind of looking at other individuals and saying, hey, we gotta, we gotta get all on, you know, all on board and on track and make sure that we are making these statements in a really strong way, which in the capitalist country is by financial uh statement, yeah, um, that I need to do the the same thing myself. And so, you know, essentially I gotta put my money where my mouth is and and say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make that, I'm gonna make that contribution. And you know what, as as it turned out, like if I'm giving five and ten dollars a month to several theater companies, it's a cup of coffee that I'm gonna forego. Um, but the difference that it makes to these theater companies um it is is tantamount, you know. Um, and I think also for myself realizing, okay, well, I can't make a $5,000 donation. So, you know, what do I do? And again, you you do you do what you can. Um, so again, uh, I I feel like I gotta walk the walk. Um, and and and oftentimes I I will have to remind myself, when am I outside of my job, what else am I doing? Um to ensure that, you know, as a whole, like the ecosystem, because one theater cannot exist on its on its own. It is about this community, which is another thing that I love about the Twin Cities is how connected the theaters are. Um, I can't get in a conversation with any artist without them talking about the artistic leader of the jungle or Penumbra or Pangea or, you know, I'm I mean, it is it it's fascinating to me to see how uh communal uh the the managerial and the artistic and the staff and the artists are. Um it's really quite beautiful to see, and it gives me um it gives me a lot of hope.
Al Heartley:That's beautiful. That's beautiful. It's where um I I spent, you know, not only time in the Twin Cities coming to to visit Mu and and sit down with Anh Thu and folks, you know, on the ground, um, you know, but also spending some time there a couple of years ago um doing a fellowship. And I I would echo that around, you know, what I felt in the Twin Cities, um, you know, around the artist community, that it felt so vibrant, so present, um, understanding the interconnectedness of each other um and the importance of that landscape, you know, in that vibrant city. Um, and even for us as a firm, you know, I think we look at potential clients to take on, and similar to what you think, Fran, around who really needs to be here? You know, who do we really want to see continue and has value add not only to their communities, but to the national field. Um, and that's where I knew that working with Mu was going to be so important because it was so vital, not only to the Twin Cities community, you know, but the national community. Um, and I think seeing the place you all occupy um in that city or the place that you all sit in that city, um, you know, as a real beacon of hope, you know, for folks nationally. I mean, when we were recruiting for this role, you know, everybody knew the kind of work that Mu was doing and the importance of why Mu, you know, existed and why it needed to continue to exist under great leadership. Um, so I really hear you around also. It's a time to put your money where your mouth is, you know, support artists, support the right of artists to be able to speak, to be able to criticize, to be able to create art, you know, that speaks truth to power. Um, in a moment, you know, where, you know, at least at the taping of this, we're coming off of Jimmy Kimmel coming back on the air, um, you know, where I think it sends a chill down some of us as artists in saying, can I criticize my government? And, you know, what I've always believed is yes, the artist has to be a person who is able to criticize a government to speak to their communities, you know, and to speak in this moment as well. So forgive me for being preachy. Um, you know, but I think you all exude that uh in terms of your call and what you understand your call to be. Um, and so as we wrap up here, too, you know, I want to ask you both, you know, what is something maybe you're also looking forward to as you look, you know, ahead for Mu? You know, Fran, I know you mentioned some potential programs, you know, that sounds really exciting. You know, I certainly think about, you know, what is it, the new eyes festival, you know, coming up, um, you know, as well. But I'm curious if you all have things you're looking forward to, whether it's at Mu, whether it's for the Twin Cities, whether it's personally, you know, uh as you look towards the future and look ahead.
Fran De Leon:Uh, you know, Rick Shiomi, who is uh one of the founders and the original artistic director, came back on the board of directors to help me through this transition, um, which I really appreciate. He says one year I'm hoping for two.
Al Heartley:Um Rick, do two.
Fran De Leon:Yes, come on, Rick. Um, you know, and he has just been wonderful because Rick Shiomi is the heart and soul of Mu. Rick is every reason why Mu exists and continues to thrive. And certainly something that um I have appreciated is the legacy um that he carries with him and uh and and you know, and his connections and the people that I have met with who love Rick so much that they said, okay, I'll have lunch with Fran. And I'm really looking forward to um as as we are, you know, kind of barreling into the future and as we're working with new artists and um fostering new voices, that we also bring with us the legacy that got us here. Um, how do we remember that? How do we remember that in our programming? How do we remember where we came from and how we got here with our community events that um Anh Thu and I have been talking about hosting? Um, you know, being of the sandwich generation, I have a child, I have my you know, elderly mother, that we really uh as artists bring that um along with us, that intergenerational aspect um of our life. And especially I think for Asian Americans, it's it's it's very strong because um, for the most part, Asian Americans don't use um retirement homes for their elders. They move in with a relative, you know, um and so you've got your older parent that you're caring for, and then you've got, you know, some folks have younger children. Um and um and I think that just that experience to to be able to bring that with us um as we continue to move forward and evolve. And we have, you know, the different, I mean, you have me, you have Umtu, we have our staff who is of a different generation, we have um, you know, our playwrights um who are again also varying ages, varying degrees, you know, and and the other thing that I also want to say is because we've been discussing this a lot of you know, having young playwrights who aren't necessarily age young.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Fran De Leon:Right. And the type of support that they need as well, because they may not carry the legacy of uh a career with them, but they carry the legacy of a of life experience with them. So making sure that that we are honoring that as a legacy as well. I'm um I'm very excited about that.
Al Heartley:That's beautiful. Reminds me of that Sankofa principle of like looking moving forward as you're looking back, you know, and considering that legacy piece.
Fran De Leon:Yes, especially right now, because as a country, we are not looking back.
Al Heartley:Yeah, yeah.
Fran De Leon:Look at the trouble that we're in because of that.
Al Heartley:Exactly. Exactly. You know, Anh Thu, how about you?
Anh Thu Pham:Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I I do want to echo everything Fran said. And also, like I've um I I feel like I I think I get stay undercover, but at the same time, as I go out into the community and go to events, I'm um I'm touched and heartened by how many people connect me to Theater Mu. And um, and when I talk to young um theater artists, the conversations I have with them, especially since right now we're in the 50th anniversary of Southeast Asian resettlement. And um, and especially when I talk to young theater artists, the conversations that I have with them when they talk about, you know, like right now, um, you know, like we we don't need to always, you know, write plays or produce plays talking about our trauma, you know, and um that this younger generation, you know, is you know, is feeling freed from having to um to delve into like the trauma of their elders or of themselves, that our communities are like Black, Indigenous, Asian, intersectional communities are freeing themselves of being able and are now looking at ways that they can create art, create theater that is of their full selves. And what I'm really looking forward to is, you know, as we move forward that we're producing theater, that I'm looking forward to under Fran's leadership, of perhaps looking at theater that is about just us as people. And we're no longer looking at, you know, like, oh, let's look at like this like small sliver, this microcosm of our experience, but like let's look at the expansiveness of our experience, you know, and as much as like the world right now, this experience is making people focus on the negative. I think part of what theater is about is about healing people and um and it's allowing us to maybe look at like the world that we want to build. And um, and I I hope that you know, with Fran and I and with Mu, that uh aside from just kind of giving people a safe space, it's also a space for us to world build and look at the future that we want to have.
Al Heartley:I love that idea of world building and the future you want to have. Um, and that, like you mentioned, there's a younger generation that says, hey, maybe we can look at some things differently, you know, and make the theater of the future or the stories of the future, you know, as well. Um, that's beautiful from you both. Uh, last question, I promise, you know, which is anything you're reading, watching, or listening to right now that you want to shout out, you know, or give a plug for in this moment.
Fran De Leon:Oh gosh, reading, I I I have I have about 30 10 minute plays that I have to read for uh a new ice festival. I'm just meeting with um Jane, our literary manager, and we are splitting that up. Um, so I'm really excited to actually um that is what I'll be spending my weekend doing, um, just on the couch with I said my iPads, you know, because I was gonna try to save trees, but there's just something about a paper script that it is so um it's just so tactile. And I feel like I'm I'm I'm so sorry, trees, but I think I have to print these plays out so that I can, you know, really give them the attention that that they need and deserve. But I'm so excited by by the uh the amount of entries that came in and from all over the country, um, and Canada and even international. Um, you know, with the prompt, What does freedom mean to you?
Al Heartley:Ooh, that's great. That's great. Yes.
Fran De Leon:Yeah. So so very excited to settle up. I saw some familiar names um in the uh submissions, and I saw some names that I don't know, which I'm even like I think I might be more excited about because you know, to to learn the new artists, especially those that are based in Minneapolis, but certainly exciting to see how many parts of the country um are aware of Mu and want to be a part of it in some form or fashion.
Al Heartley:That's great. Who loves some good scripts, especially some good news scripts, you know. So that's a great book. That's a great show. You know, Anh Thu, you got anything?
Anh Thu Pham:Um I wish I could remember the name of the film last night. Um last night was the opening of the Arab American Film Festival, which was the 19th annual film festival of um of um the MISNA, the Arab American Arts Organization. And um, oh, the movie was um Thank You for Banking With Us. Um and it was uh basically a movie of two sisters um who their father had just passed away. And um it's uh it's like Thelma Louise with a happier ending. And um, and it was we were really lucky. Uh the the the filmmaker, uh the director and um screenwriter, she was there, and she had just told us that she had left Ramallah on Sunday, and it took her from Sunday until last night to um to get to Minnesota. Um and the border had just um closed after she left, so she didn't know if um she'd be able to return back. But the movie was funny, it was heartwarming, and I love small independent film festivals. It was like my first foray into the arts in the Twin Cities, and so um yes, uh thank you for banking with us and Miss Ness Arab American Film Festival is running now. If you're in the Twin Cities through Sunday, and so that was my um my thing that I really have loved recently as of last night.
Al Heartley:Listen, we'll take it. We'll take it, you know, always love a good independent film festival, you know, and cultural festivals around, you know, a city like Minneapolis um and and St. Paul, you know, but also, you know, listeners, if you're around, you know, Minneapolis in January or the New Eyes Festival, you know, uh keep an eye out, you know, for some of those up-and-coming writers uh that Mu has certainly been known for developing, you know, uh and putting not only out there in the Twin Cities, but across the country. Um, y'all, I know we're at Fran and Anh Thu. Thank you so much for this time this afternoon. Uh, it's a great, you know, to be able to connect with you both, hear where you all have been, hear where you are now, uh, and give some hope to the future and where we're going. So thanks to you both.
Fran De Leon:Thank you. Thanks for having us.
Al Heartley:You know it. Thanks, y'all.