Moving Forward with EMC
Co-founders Al Heartley, Tiffany Vega, and Leandro Zaneti gather to discuss current topics facing non-profit arts leaders and organizations.
Moving Forward with EMC
Resumes, Cover Letters, Interviews: How To Tell Your Story and Land A Job
Job hunting in the nonprofit arts can feel like shouting into the void, so we break the process down into a clear, usable framework: your resume is your data, your cover letter is your voice, and your interview is your presence. Across the hour, we show how those pieces add up to one story about value and fit: what you did, how you think, and why you’re right for this moment.
By the end, you’ll know how to align metrics, voice, and presence so committees can see your edge fast. Ready to turn a scattered application into a coherent narrative that lands interviews? Subscribe, share this episode with a friend who’s applying, and tell us: which piece needs the biggest upgrade right now?
Welcome to Moving Forward with Evolution Management Consultants, the podcast where we dive deep into the dynamic world of nonprofit arts management. I'm your host, Al Hartley, and I'm thrilled to have you join us on this journey today. In each episode, we'll explore the ever-evolving landscape of the nonprofit art sector. We'll bring you thought-provoking discussions and innovative strategies to equip you with the knowledge and inspiration to take your organization to new heights. Now, let's get started. Hi folks, welcome to Movie Ford. Thanks for being able to join us for another episode. It's been a minute since it's been the three of us on your feed. You know, we've been doing some solo episodes, we've been doing some interviews, you know, this past quarter. Uh so today we wanted to get together and talk a little bit about, you know, um tips, you know, and uh a conversation around, you know, really three things that make up so much of our work in search, which is around resume, cover letter, and interviews. Um, you know, and really talking about today, like how all three of those pieces really bring together, you know, one story of who you are as a candidate, and ultimately also for the people who are hiring, you know, who are these folks that are applying for this role? So we're gonna talk some strategies and tactics today from what we've seen after another year of search. My God, I can't believe it's almost the end of the year, but still as ever joined by my great colleagues, Tiffany and Leandro. Hey Tiff.
SPEAKER_01:Hola, hola, hola, and hey Leandro.
SPEAKER_00:Hi, hey y'all, it's good to see y'all. It's been a minute, and so I wanted to start off with what we usually end with, which is around anything that you're listening to, watching, you know, or even reading right now. So, y'all want to give a shout out? Anything what what have y'all been into lately?
SPEAKER_01:Uh, I'll talk. Uh, so yesterday I started watching All's Fair on Hulu.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_01:Which, if if y'all don't know, it's like a very campy, ridiculous um drama, they say, series on Hulu about a firm of women who own a divorce law firm. And it stars Kim Kardashian, um uh Sarah Paulson, Glenn Close, um, a bunch of other people that I can't even remember their names right now. But it is it's a guilty pleasure. Kim Kardashian's acting is atrocious.
SPEAKER_00:I've read this, I've read a little bit of like this is horrible.
SPEAKER_01:Watching the Kardashians, yeah. And but the outfits, the fashion, um, and I mean, seeing her up against like acting next to Glenn Close and Naomi Watts is like stupid.
SPEAKER_00:It's like that is where Ryan Murphy's seeing a straight face here. That's where Ryan Murphy succeeds. Like, you know, impeccable either fashion or like period pieces. Like he did uh he did another one last year. Uh, I can't remember the name of it. It was the Swans. Um, and so it was also like Naomi Watts and like all of these great actors in like some really great 60s, like you know, apparel and costume. It was excellent. So this looks yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So the writing is predictable, the acting from Kim Kardashian is atrocious, um, but it's delicious.
SPEAKER_00:So it's what we live for.
SPEAKER_01:Sarah Paulson's villain is ridiculous, it's like it's over the top. Um, so that's my guilty pleasure.
SPEAKER_02:Nice. I was just listening to a podcast with Sarah Paulson where she was like doing her press round interviews, and I love Sarah Paulson, which is probably the reason that I will probably watch it is you will love it, Leandro. Paulson fan. Um, I don't know. I have a really low tolerance for bad acting, like a really, really low tolerance, um, particularly on TV. And so we'll see. Um and so uh yeah, that's that's awesome. I so it's already on my list, but I've got another check plus to at least give it a shot. Um and I I honestly, folks, I have not had uh the brain space in my life to do like narrative TV. So I've been binging on reality TV as always. Um the new season of Survivor is getting much better than it started out, and so we've merged and it is actually getting interesting now. Um I I was talking to somebody about it, uh, and it feels to me as they cast people who are younger than me, it gets harder and harder to watch. Um, just because like part of what I liked about Survivor is that often it felt like I was watching people who were sort of of my generation in a lot of ways. Um but uh yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see Gen Z be reality TV show stars. They're a very different like kind of people, yeah, it feels like to me. No, no T no shade to Gen Zers. I love hanging out with Gen Zers, but on TV it's um it's gonna be interesting.
SPEAKER_00:It's a different beast. It reminds me of Love Island of like, oh, this is like Gen Z really in it on like a reality show, you know, even at least for me, starting like Love is Blind and Ultimatum and others, it's still people who are like of like 30s, like okay, maybe some folks who are in their late 20s that are on there, but like Love Island was like a oh, these are like 21, 22, 23 year olds just like on TV on an island, like living their best lives like it's golden.
SPEAKER_02:Um I have never so I've never seen American Love Island. I'm pretty sure that's true. I watched two seasons of the British version, yeah. Um, like from older seasons, and it's a lot of TV, man. And I'm saying that I'm somebody who watched all 40 seasons, 49 seasons now of Survivor, and I'm saying it's too much TV, it's a lot of TV, it's a lot of time. Um, but I would be remiss if I didn't shout out my latest like binge, which was Love is Blind Brazil. So if anybody likes Love is Blind US, um, watch Love is Blind Brazil. My husband does not speak any Portuguese. We watch it subtitled, and he loves it, like he likes it more than he likes the US version, and so uh, because Brazilians are um intense, intense. We uh extreme and we live it, we live our lives in extreme, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. As a broad generalization about my people, uh, but it's um yeah, it's super fun, they're so fun.
SPEAKER_00:Love island is a lot of TV. It it there were moments where I was like, there's like an episode every day. Oh my god, you know, like how much can I just sit and watch and vote? But then I got totally sucked into it. So, you know, I'll have to be watching now. So the one that I finished recently was hacks on HBO Max. Um, and it's one that I didn't think I would get into, um, because it it's the basic premise is like there's this, you know, season comic named Deborah Vance, who's played by Gene Smart, excellent, you know, working with a younger comic writer who is like kind of been exiled because of a Twitter spat. Um, and they both have to like reinvent their careers and work together. Um, and so each season is really about like, yes, it's a workplace comedy, but it's also about like trying to do comedy, which is really difficult. Um, and so all to say, we've got to the end in season four, and uh, there was this one sort of after credits episode where I'm not really giving anything away, but like it was a quote that she said that really stuck with me was that something that they explore in one of the seasons is Deborah being a late night host. Um and uh she comes up naturally with like some conflicts and like things that happened in the workplace, and they were like, you know, we talk about dream job and we often focus on the dream and not the job part. Um and that kind of stuck with me, you know, given what we do. And I was like, oh yeah, I hear that thing so much. And yet it was such a good um, it was such a good portrayal of like two really great actors of like very different generations, but being able to come together and work together. Um, so that's what I've been watching at least. Uh the one quick thing I'll shout out to audiobook-wise is that I finished my book Um 1929 by Andrew Ross Sorgen. Um, it's a really good in the room, fast-paced reading of like what exactly happened in 1929, like what was going on. And basically, like the thing that I take away from that book is like it's not only the things that led up to the crash, but like actually a good part of the book is after. So it's like from 1929 to like 1933 or 34. Um, and it's sort of like a rolling, like a slow-rolling train wreck, um, that just kind of comes to fruition. So it if you're into like a mix of um, like he talked about modeling off of an author who sort of wrote about the Titanic disaster from like the points of view of the various people who were on end. And so that's what he's trying to do here is like have a different cast of characters. So I really enjoyed it. Yeah, yeah, it was really good. That's awesome. Um, you know, so I'll have to keep getting, especially as like the holidays come up, like more Love is Blind universe is great, more Love Island pieces is great. Anything with Sarah Paulson and Glenn Coase and on Hulu is probably gonna be up my alley, you know. So there's a lot to check out here, folks, from all of us like extreme theater people um that love us some good drama and good reality shows. Um you know, and camp, and camp, you know. Um, we'll take it. I'll take him Kardashian's acting. I'm like, you know what, you're on it? Yes, let me turn it on. You know, that that's where I'm at at this point. Um let's get into it, y'all. Let's talk a little bit about um, you know, resume, cover letters, and and interviews. You know, one of the when we look back at our data around our podcast series, like the ones that really where we're able to offer some tips, offer some insight into a job market and a job finding market that can just feel really amorphous, treacherous. What is going on out there? How do I get noticed? You know, people talking about, you know, applying for four and 500 jobs at a time. Um, you know, so I wanted to bring this question to y'all um that even we've been raising around resumes and cover letters. You know, Leandra, I remember at one point you talked about like, do we even need a cover letter anymore? You know, like just positing it as a whole. Um, and I'm curious what y'all think about why resumes and cover letters for all the ones that we get, because we see so many throughout a year, why are they still so important?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, totally. Um, so I'll start because you called me out and uh, you know, shared that I'm I have a question about this, right? I have a real question about cover letters. We continue to to ask for them right now. And um so I I have real questions around what is the what is the value. But as I was thinking about this episode, I I thought about how would I sort of name the value? What's the piece of it, right? And we'll talk a little bit about interviews too over the course of of today. And for that, I for me it it sort of breaks down into one uh framework of resumes are where you list data, right? I think resumes are your data bucket. What have you done? What are the numbers? What changes have you made? Like, can you give me stats? That's where you put your stats, in my opinion. I think your cover letter is a writing sample. I think it's about how do you communicate um yourself about yourself in writing? And that will be a part of the majority of these jobs, right? Writing in some form will be a part of the majority of the jobs that we look for. Um so I think there is a use in that cover letter as sort of a writing sample. How does this person communicate in written form? And then I think the interview is how do you communicate orally? Um, and so the and in each one, both the cover letter and the interview, those are more about storytelling, right? So if you're if your resume is about your stats, your cover, your cover letter and your interviews are about how do I tell the story of how I made those stats happen? What was my approach? What did I do, and what's important to me as I think about those things. So why each one of those still sort serves a real function? That's it. But there are jobs that I think maybe don't need cover letters anymore. Um uh where just looking at a resume is the first step. And then maybe you do something later on to talk about writing samples, right? Um, but the yeah, I'll I'll pause there. I have a lot of thoughts about this, but that's that's where I'll start, is where I think they're important.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sorry. Tiff, what about you? Why are they still important or why do you feel they still are needed?
SPEAKER_01:So I agree with everything LeAngelo just said. Um, and I will say that for me, um, what's most important is the resume and the interview. Um, and I say that because Chat GBT is writing a lot of these cover letters.
SPEAKER_02:And we can tell, folks, if you don't think we can tell, we can tell. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and so for me, that's most important. And I find that search committees want cover letters. Um, so I I think for for me, it doesn't really, I don't really, it doesn't matter to me whether or not you submit a cover letter. I really just want to see your resume and have a conversation with you. But yeah, that's that's what I'm finding.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I love the the emphasis, you know, from the both of you around like yes, needing some kind of three parts of this, but maybe there's variations on that. You know, I know we've you know thought about in cover letters rather than just saying send in a cover letter, you know, but instead thinking about here's some questions we we really want some thoughts on from you, you know. We did that for the woolly search recently. I mean, we just did that for woolly, yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, right that there's a real value in being able to maybe tell a specific story that either we need to know or a client needs to really know, versus just having a generic story like a cover letter, but then also the resume still being a tool for that data, you know, maybe for scanning that initial piece and then saying, all right, boom, I want to talk to you and like you know, start to really put some things together for you. Um, and I think that, you know, to to me, when it comes down to looking at why the combination of these three, it goes back to that storytelling element and that storytelling aspect of saying, how do you tell a through line of a story in relationship to the job description, you know, what you know also about, frankly, the search firm, you know, that you might be talking to, and sometimes if you've talked to them before, what they prioritize, you know, but really thinking, why are you here? And my thesis, and I would be curious if if y'all have either amendments or disagreements with this, around I think the most successful applicant is the person who tells the best story, um, at the end of the day. I haven't really seen a lot of things turn on. This was the absolute best fundraiser that we could get, or this was the absolute, you know, um maximalist, you know, artist that we could get. But usually it is about to me who is telling the story that fits this moment and this job description at this organization. That's my take, what my thought.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think that's really right, Al. And I I'm gonna make a sports metaphor. I that this is someone like me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't do sports. Um, um, I used to, I used to play baseball, which is I guess why I'm gonna make this comparison. I think of um, I think, yeah, I was on the varsity baseball team in high school. Uh and anyway, uh, my brain. Uh but but I think of I think of a resume like a baseball card, right? On the back of your baseball card, you've got your stats, you've got how you're doing, you've got all of the accompl your accomplishments. Um, and so I really think of your resume as your baseball card. And then I think of your cover letter as the story that people tell when trading baseball cards, right? Like just to like extend that metaphor. Is I think that's the story that you're like, here are all the ways that this person did all of the things on the back of this card and why you should want this baseball card, right? Or this person on your team. Um, and then I think the interview is meeting your is meeting that person from the baseball card and letting them tell you what are all of the stories that they have um in terms of how they accomplished all those things. And so I think you're really right that it's about storytelling. Every element of that of that is storytelling. Um, and I think it's about knowing where are the functional things and where are the like creative arc-building, world-building things that you can be. And I think that that's where resumes and cover letters and interviews serve very different functions.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Do y'all feel that in particular, Tiff, since you look at resumes, like, is there a specific like I was reading this stat where basically most hiring managers look at a resume for seven seconds and are deciding boom whether they're gonna keep looking at you or basically move on. So is there something that like jumps out at you from a resume that you're like, oh, I'm looking for this, or I'm looking for this stat or this place or the experience?
SPEAKER_01:I I have to say that I I take more than seven seconds because I think because we are a boutique firm that helps us and that we can spend more time.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and so um, but what what to me sticks out is um, you know, when we're talking to our clients, um, we ask, like, does this person need to have had this job before? Or are you looking for something else? And so, you know, for instance, for Portland Center Stage, which we're we're leading the search for right now, I was looking to see like, does this person have any marketing experience? Um, does this person have any development experience? Um, and and oftentimes I try to see like where is their alignment in the kind of art that a um client does, like what's their aesthetic? Um, but also I want to see sometimes some um like Portland Center Stage is quirky a little bit. So I try to find like what's the quirkiness in this. Um and so um, yeah, so I that's just an example. So I spend a little bit more time uh with resumes than I guess other like recruiters who are looking at like a thousand resumes a day.
SPEAKER_02:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I read that stat. I read that stat and I was like, I'm doing this wrong. I'm I'm not spending seven seconds on this uh on reviewing. I'm spending so much more time than that. Yeah. Um, because I think I think just to build off of what what Tiff was just saying, I think I'm looking for um change that you've made. I'm looking for impact, right? I'm looking for like how have you impacted the places that you're that you've been in, because I am a deep believer in like leadership comes from anywhere. You can sit in any seat and be a leader. And so if you're applying for a leadership job, how have you been a leader from that role? Um, and I'm looking for those kinds of stats to help me understand. Um, this person already has the penchant for leadership uh and and the sort of desire for more um uh of that leadership and responsibility. And so for me, I'm really looking for how did you take it from what it was to what it was with you? Um and what was your sort of contribution to that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, kind of going to the to the storytelling metaphor or you know, the thing that happens for me is you know, when I think about great stories out there, most of them either about usually one of two things growth and change. You know, that when you think about a really good movie ideally or really good play, you know, the main character just doesn't start in the place and then end at the exact same place. You know, then you're like, well, then what happened, you know, between those two poles? And I think that's where a cover letter is so useful for me in explaining some of that growth, some of that change. Even if, you know, to me, where I hear students sometimes struggle with cover letters is like one, what is the purpose? And two, what am I trying to explain? And what I try to say is you're trying to explain some of those stats that you're talking about, Leandro, or some of that spicy and salsa that you're talking about, Tiffany, out of a candidate that says, Hey, okay, then tell me more, you know, give me a story that I can really sink into, even if it's one specific story about a major change that you did, you know. But it's just another opportunity to give a narrative that says, All right, if I see that you eliminated a deficit from five million to a hundred thousand dollars, that's a story. Tell me that story.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think that's that's totally right. Um, sorry, I know that I'm jumping in quickly here. I have a lot to think about and or like a lot to say when it comes to this. Um uh, because when you said uh storytelling, I think that that's true overall, right? And that's also true in each document. And so one of the things that I like to tell candidates as I'm talking to them is that when you apply for a job, this is my take. When you apply for a job, uh you are not competing against every other candidate. I mean, and technically you are, but actually, I think what you're competing uh against is all the people who are like you, right? There are people, all different types of people who apply for a job. Um, and each one of them has a unique path to that job. And then those folks sort of fit into buckets. And so, and what you're trying to do, I think a good search process tries to find the best in each one of those buckets and then presents them to the hiring manager or the client, right? That's it, that's how I think of our job. Um, and so when you're putting together your resume, uh I think you should ask yourself, I think candidates should ask themselves, who am I actually competing against? Like, what's my type, right? If somebody were looking at me as a candidate, what's my type? And then I would, I would, I would lean into that and find ways to subvert it. So, what do I mean? Like, I think for an artistic director, um, I think an artistic director generally has sort of two overall paths. You can be an associate within institutions, an associate artistic director and a working artist, or you can just go the working artist route, right? And I think that those as broad generalizations are two categories that you might fit into in an artistic director search. And when putting together your resume, I think you can think about which one of those do I fit into and how can I play to my strengths here? Um, how can I let them see in my uh in my resume what kind of candidate I am most clearly? And so something really tactical, right? If you're a person who has directed mostly, but has um and has some administrative experience, but they're for short stints, um, it isn't all that deep. I would maybe put your directing stuff first, right? It's the thing that people are gonna know you for, be excited about. Whereas if you've been an associate artistic director in a number of places, you've had like deep relationships with institutions, and you've directed on the side, maybe you put that stuff at the top um and then talk about your directing resume. So I think there are ways, even in format and order, that you can think about how am I telling the story of the candidate that I want to be? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Can I share something? I actually um shared this with you on TikTok yesterday, Al, uh, since Leanne's not on TikTok. Um it was a CV that was a spreadsheet, and um it listed literally like every single job, every single speaking experience, every single like podcast, interview, whatever. And it was awesome because you could see not only the growth of the person chronologically, like via because you know, some people I love a good spreadsheet, um, but also you could see um the range, like how the person kind of like keeps on reinventing themselves. Um it was an artist that this the CV, um, a visual artist, and it was pretty cool. I thought that that was a very interesting way of formatting all of that information.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's where I it's where I think about that the the phrase around form is content, and that so much of what you submit, how you design your resume, where you lead on your cover letter, you know, how you start off an interview, all of that form is some kind of content for us in terms of, oh, what does this mean? You know, in terms of the story of this person. I think about for artistic director searches sometimes asking for portfolios. You know, those portfolios tell a story about the kind of work and the kind of artist, you know, that you are and that you want to be. And where I the the place I would I would drill down and double-click a little bit on that you said, Leandro, and that you alluded to too, Tiff, is really around uh being able to think about how you can lean into your strengths and differentiate yourself and show how you are actually leaning into your difference rather than trying to be everything to everyone. Um, and some of that is frightening because I think there's a fear of being, you know, pigeonhole. There's a fear of I'm gonna get stuck in this and no one's gonna be able to unstuck me in this uh or unstuck me out of it. And really, it's actually saying, well, no, I'd rather know consistently where you are and what you stand for. Let me just as a quick example, even when I think about us, you know, interviewing, you know, for search jobs, you know, I really think about, listen, we might as well lean into who we are. You know, are we a younger firm? Yes, but it also means we're innovative. And it also means we can draw a contrast against, like you mentioned, Leandro, people who might be competing like us, you know, or that we're in a competition set with to say, and here's how we're not like these other folks and why that is a strength, you know. But also listen, if you want somebody with the experience, don't come after me. You know, that's not where I'm at. But I think that's where you can help draw a contrast similar to kind of what um Zohan did with Andrew Cuomo in New York. He was like, Andrew Cuomo, you might have all the experience in the world, but you will never have integrity. You know, I may not have experience, but I have integrity that I can carry forward. And that was an effective message, I thought. He knew his audience, he knew the competition, and was able to say, You're right, I'm not like that. But this is why it's good I'm not like that.
SPEAKER_02:Ultimately, I think cover letters are a sales pitch, right? Like to use really crass terms, it's a sales pitch. Why should people pick you? And it's a it's a it's an exercise in persuasive writing. Um, that's what I think of as cover letters, is it's that it is uh like turning on my strategy brain, right? To use some like strategy terms to this. I think that what you do part of part of what you can do as you prep for applying for a job is do like a SWOT analysis. What are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? What are the opportunities here? And what are the threats, right? What are the things that would keep you from being the perfect person for this job? Having all of that, you can then find your competitive advantage, right? How do you leverage your strengths to find a niche within the people who are applying for this job and then lean into that. Competitive advantage. It's one of the things that I learned working as a marketing consultant at Capacity Interactive. One of the things that they really taught us was like spend money on your winners, right? You actually like lean into the things that are doing well because they're the that's where the sort of fire is. And I think about that a lot. Shout out to Capacity Interactive. Um, that I think about it a lot in terms of uh even applicants, right? What's your competitive advantage and how do you lean into that further? Um uh and there are some things we can talk about when we get to interviews that that um are about subverting some of those two.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Before we we dive into interviews, I'm curious for both of y'all. The the other place I realize for sometimes where we work is so many of the folks and jobs that we're recruiting for, frankly, kind of mid-professional, almost experienced level folks that are coming into the field. So if you're I guess if you're younger, you know, in particular, are are there tips or advices like when you think about, you know, when you when you know, we were all in our early 20s, being like, Am I gonna sell myself on a job, you know, or on a resume that can look really thin? You know, any advice or thoughts there around, you know, what can you do when you're younger to tell a story? And you may be going out there and being like, I don't have much experience, I don't have a lot to draw on. So then what are some of the things you can emphasize or you could draw on?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um, I I brought this example to you last week, I think, um, of a PhD student that I met um at UMass. Um, and the question was asked, what are you going to do after you graduate? And her answer was um, like she told a story of who she wants to be. So she said, I want to be a YA author, fiction writer that um specifically um talks about lesbian content. Um, I want to be a professor. I and she gave like another things, and then she used a quote from another author that basically talked about um that liberation, true liberation, is when you can be anything that you want to be. And and I thought that was beautiful because you know, she she is not yet those things, but to hear her dream, I was like, oh, she's gonna do that. Um and and so um I think when you're younger, it is hard for your resume because you have you have like very little, like like now it's hard for me to put anything in two pages. Um so like when you have like maybe three like two-thirds of a page, they're younger, you'd have a good experience.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I think I think the um cover letter is gonna be very important for you uh to talk about what your dreams are, who you want to be, and and like what your philosophy is. Um and and then the interview. Uh, but I would say the the resume is it can be really like uh it can hurt your confidence when you're younger. So like um I hear that, and it's just understanding how how do you do your elevator pitch for yourself?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think that it it's a really interesting question. Thanks for bringing it to us, Al, because it's not what I think about on an everyday basis. You might have seen them just like staring off as I think. Um and I also have a unique experience in this in that like I've I've basically had a job since I was 15. So when I like made my first resume, I like had had four jobs. I mean, it was like cashier at uh at a supermarket. I worked in the back at like a glass company for a while. I worked at Newark Airport, right? I had like the slew of jobs in high school, and I used all of that, right? Like part-time jobs, all of that stuff are opportunities for you to say, hey, this is actually not my first job, which I think is important as a like as an entry-level person, being able to say this is not my first job, if it's not your first job. Um, if it is your first job, that's okay too. I would focus on things you did in school, right? Leadership opportunities you had in school. Because when you first asked this question, I thought about like, okay, but what those folks who are hiring those entry-level folks or those folks who are uh more um earlier in their career, what they're looking for is different than what we're looking for, right? They're looking for somebody who's um who wants to be uh molded, right? They're looking for somebody who's hungry uh to learn. Because if you're just coming out, any entry-level job should know whether or not they all do is a different question, but they should know that it's their job to train you in the thing that you don't have experience in. But what they can't train you is how to learn, right? You need to know how you learn, and you need to have the hunger and motivation to do it. And so what I would focus on in your resume is how does your resume tell the story of your drive, um, of your ambition, of and it links to what Tiffany was saying, of your future. I think as you get later in your career, your resume turns into a document of what you've done. Um, and I think you can think of your resume as uh when you're earlier in your career, as the launching point. So, what gives you the foundation in order to be able to excel in this entry-level position? Um uh that's where I would look at where I've done things in school, how I've taken initiative. Like, hey, if you started like a neighborhood playtime group, whatever, right? I'm thinking like super young, whatever it is, right? You organized, um, you organized pick up basketball games at um at the park. That's all it's like those are all examples of you taking leadership when nobody asked you to. It's that initiative that I think folks are looking for, particularly in um when when hiring for those positions where you know you're gonna have to train somebody in the specifics of the job.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I think where I where I wish I could tell my 20-year-old self was don't get so hung up about being insecure about not having experience or not having a long resume. Um, and instead really think about you know, the things that y'all are mentioned of where am I going? You know, I've got some sort of direction and trajectory. And I think it's where when you're young, if you can do internships, you know, if you can do internships at places that people might recognize, or even if it is, you know, some experience that is local, you know, in your community, you know, or you know, has some sort of even a manager level responsibility, use that to tell the story. You know, the resume cover layer can get you in the door, it can get you that pitch, but then you've got to actually go in there and make the sale. And if you're not confident in the sale, then the client's not gonna feel confident in your ability to deliver on the pitch that you're talking about, you know. So that's where everything comes together in like a real package. And I think when you're young, you can package the idea of I've, you know, to your point, Leandro, I've got some experience. This actually isn't my first job. You know, I hear that even from people coming out of grad school of feeling like, well, I got all this school experience. No, no, no, no, no. It's not just about school experience. What are you doing moving forward? What have you done beforehand? And how does that connect to what this client is looking for, what this employer is looking for, and the value you can offer? Um, and I think that's where we can go with then the last part of our conversation is if you get, you know, okay, you got a solid cover letter, you got a solid resume. What is your job in the interview you feel? Like what is the storytelling aspect, you know, there, and what are you trying to listen for, you know, or or really get out of an interview with a candidate?
SPEAKER_01:Uh, I'll start. Uh, one thing I absolutely hate is when I can tell they have not read the job description, they have not looked at the website, they don't know anything about the organization, and to be honest, they don't know anything about me. Yeah, yeah. And um, uh, because all you have to do is very, I mean, you have to go to our website in order to view the application, and you can quickly eat read my bio to know that I have worked in a theater for almost two decades. You do not need to explain what unions are to me, right? So, um, and um yeah, and to me, that just shows me that you may not be as interested in the job as you should be. You did not come prepared to the interview. Um, and and that shows me that you won't probably not have the competencies that are needed for this role because we we tend to search for leadership because leaders need to do a lot of research. Like if you go in to talk to a donor and you have not done any research on that donor, that's a huge issue.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um and to me, it also shows a level of uh respect. And I'm not, I know I sound like really cocky right now. No, I think it's real, but it it does, it shows a level level of respect for the role for the company, um, for for the fact that you're coming in to do an interview. Um, and and yeah, so so it doesn't make me feel like like you're a serious candidate, but you really want this job if you come unprepared.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That's interesting. Um, but I hadn't really considered that. I I mean, I I in part agree with you in terms of the like know what you need to explain, and I certainly agree with you in terms of the uh like you should know the organization, you should know the um, like you should have read the job description. Um and I had never thought about like should they know about me. I guess I think that's true, but I also think that like there's a line, right? Like, don't I don't need you to know everything about me. Do like a quick Google search, right? Like, there's I don't need you to then sort of recite my bio back to me. Um and so like that just I I think and that and I think there are some people who like don't know that that's something you should do. So I'm glad that you brought it up. Um for me, the interview is about um I and I'm gonna talk less about like the screening interviews because the kind of interviews we do is different than the kinds of interviews or what people are looking for when you're talking directly to a hiring manager or like a search committee, et cetera, right? We're doing interviews about like who is who has the competencies and and skills for the job, like who is at that um I'll call it a baseline. Um, and then I think that the the hiring manager search committees are looking at that. That's certainly a big part. We we do all competency-based interviews, and they're looking for like how does this um align with our organization, right? I think they're doing the work of like alignment and figuring out how they align to this particular moment in the organization, which we know some of. Um, but in those interviews specifically, I would say that the um the thing that I've told some candidates, and I think it's kind of fun, so I'm gonna say it here too, is like I think that's a moment for you to subvert what they expect of you. Um, I think there's a little bit, there's an element of delight that I uh that I think one wants to bring to an interview. And so what I like to do um when I'm interviewing for anything is I think about, okay, like I try to put myself in the box that they might put me in, right? I might, I might classify myself like they classify me. And then I might look for ways to delightfully subvert what they think about me, right? Like I have uh my my um earlier experience or my my later my later experience is more in administration, et cetera. So I really like to talk about my work in production. Um, I like to talk about uh the things that maybe are not super clear if you're just scanning my resume, particularly if you're spending seven seconds on it, but that might reframe how you view me as a candidate that reinforces my competitive advantage. So, like it takes the what are you what do I think you're gonna think about me? How do I how do I want you to think about me? And what do I need to subvert in order to get you from where you are to where I want you to be? That's how I prep for an interview, yeah. Um, and I look for stories that do that. Um and I don't know that I'm not saying that'll work with every interviewer, but that's how I prep for interviews.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I I think that the there's the thing that connects what you both said to me is like this why piece, and it makes me think of this saying I heard from or I read in a book that was like, anyone that has a great and powerful why can overcome any how, you know, and so part of that prep and part of some of that knowledge is also communicating a why, it's communicating like I care about this company, you know, I care to get to know people, you know, I understand why where this company is and why I fit into this company in this particular moment, you know, and so each and every time in an interview to me, I it the the the question that I usually hear back most from in particular search committees, but also just hiring managers is being like, Why do they want to do this? You know, sometimes it's about qualifications. Yes, it's not to say that you don't need to have the qualifications or the experience to match, but there is this deeper question that I find folks really look for of like, well, well, why me? You know, it's it's like when you go on and on a date, you're just like, Well, why? You know, why are you interested in me? You know, otherwise, if it's just all about, you know, um, some superficialness to this, then what am I even doing here? And so the interview is always about that why reinforce that why, you know, and you know, I think to your point, Leandro, draw contrast and subvert, you know. Um, I I even love watching us do that sometimes when I think some people are like, here comes this young firm that are like filled with these like young people. And then we come in and we're like, no, listen, we try, we are we're here, we're serious, we've done our homework, you know. We we are really presenting the best case that we want to present here, you know. Um, and I thank you for calling us young. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, indeed, right?
SPEAKER_00:You know, I'm like, listen, I'll take it, you know. Uh, but like that's the piece that I'm always like, okay, yes, let's keep talking. Um, this is great, y'all. Um last piece, like as a as a you know, last like two or three minutes here. Anything you would change about, you know, the resume cover letter, you know, piece, you know, Tiff, I like that you mentioned about you know, someone sending a spreadsheet, you know, t detailing their experience. Like maybe this is for another pod, but like there's one thing that you could like, ah, I would I would change this. Anything that you might might change in the process.
SPEAKER_02:It's a hard, that's a it's it's an interesting question. I I honestly like right now, I I think my biggest change would be uh around the cover letter. I think the resume and interview are both really um key. I would say that for the cover letter, I think that I would change, at least from like an industry perspective, um, I think we have some outdated ideals about what a cover letter should do, what it should look like, what it should uh like consider. And I think that I would change it to be more of like a writing sample, or I would change it to be more specific as opposed to like tell us why you want this job. A, I think that that's gonna come through in the interview, and B, like I trust candidate, I tend to trust candidates when they do all the work of applying for a job that they want the job, right? So I I I think it's an important piece in terms of how folks write. Um, but I would change maybe the frame that we have around it. I saw one example the other day of uh somebody who was hiring, and they they didn't even ask for a resume. They were like, send us an email with your um with what you would consider your biggest accomplishment in your career. Oh, right. And that's all they asked for. And they contacted the people who resonate whose accomplishments resonated with like what they needed and how they needed people to work, um, which I thought was interesting, right? I'm I assume that after that you get asked for some sort of like resume, right? What have you done? Um, but as an entry point, I thought it was interesting. And I thought, oh, maybe that's a way to think about even this cover letter piece. Like, what if we just ask people, what's your biggest accomplishment?
SPEAKER_01:That's like um, I'm gonna go the route of legally blonde and say, um, I think, particularly for the younger generation for Gen Z, I think a video introduction would be pretty cool um and different and set yourself aside if that's even something like you gotta go with the vibe, right? You gotta see like if this is the kind of place that would accept something like that. Um and and I say that because it's interesting. We had a we had a search committee member ask us uh or just bring up the fact that like a lot of people, especially uh Gen Zers and younger millennials are putting their photos, like headshots into resumes and that they've had to like block it out because it's supposed to be like an unbiased blind read of resumes. And um yeah, I think it's I think it's interesting depending on the what the role is of like a video intro, of like seeing just how um interesting. And I say this because I know I'm going in a lot. So I allow my students, my students uh for my my Latinx theater class, they do script analyses, and I allow them to do an actual written script analysis or um to submit a podcast style script analysis. And the podcast style is amazing and so creative because some of these kids they're like sound design students and they go like hard, like there's like music in the background, or there's or sometimes what happens is is two students will get together and do like a conversation, like so it's like a dual assignment submission, and they'll and they'll do a conversation about the play together. Um, so I I think it's just interesting to see how people express do their storytelling in different ways. Um, so I don't know, that's that's just what I thought of of like a video or even an um audio. Um so even I'll tell you even so, right? So like onhing the dating app there is you could do like an audio um like submission, like so you can hear people's voices, not just see them. And so, like one of the questions, like the one on mine, yes, I have a hinge, y'all. Nice um, is um that how would your friends describe you? Oh, okay, you know, and but it's nice because you can actually hear the person's voice, and that I feel like that just it makes the person more real, so you know you're not being catfished, and it also just makes you feel like you get like a little bit of that person's it's gonna sound so corny, um, a little bit of their soul, like you kind of like understand them a bit. So that's what I'm thinking of just like different um uh avenues, different types of content that is submitted as a storytelling tool of who you are as a candidate.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, different ways to be human, you know. Like it's still all about flesh and blood. Like, that's what I try to tell people about. It's like it's still people, it's still flesh and blood. Um, and the thing I'll say quickly is like the thing that I would try to do is rather than a cover letter, have an option where you submit some sort of pod or audio piece. Um, that's where I would be curious just to start hearing someone's thinking and saying, Oh, how do you express yourself? What is some of your thinking? Maybe that leads to another conversation piece. Um, so that that's the one that I was gonna throw out there was like, Don't give me your cover letters, give me your podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Um, I have so many thoughts that I'm gonna hold to myself because we're trying to wrap up, but we should come back to this. We should come back to this idea.
SPEAKER_00:Listen, that's why I ended it this way of like, listen, let's come back to some of these ideas and we'll do a later pod of like how can some of these be implemented? Um, but we want to hear from you, you know, too. Send us your thoughts about tips on resume, cover letters, and interviews, or also, you know, reach out to us. You know, we do some coaching, you know, around with folks, you know, not in particular if you're in one of our searches, you know, but if you're looking for some extra help, if you're looking for another pair of eyes, you know, reach out to us at emc at emc4.com. We'd love to be able to talk with you, you know, and teach you and show you how you can tell your story more effectively, um, especially as we get ready to enter into a new year. Um, so with that, Tiff Leandro, thanks, y'all. That's all we could talk to y'all. Thanks. Bye, y'all. Bye.