What 2025 Taught Us About Survival, Community, and Change in the Arts

What do you call a year where lobbies buzzed, budgets tightened, and policy storms hit midseason? We call it 2025—and we’re unpacking what actually mattered. Al, Leandro, and Tiff get candid about the dissonance nonprofits felt: sold-out shows alongside rising costs, NEA guideline whiplash colliding with DEI commitments, and a post-pandemic audience that behaves by new rules.

Listen as we unpack 2025 and what we learned as we look back on a dizzying year. 

Leave a comment, follow, or email us at emc@emcforward.com. 

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Year-End Frame
• 2:35 Defining 2025: Dissonance Everywhere
• 5:24 Post-Pandemic Audiences And Operations
• 9:15 Politics, DEI Backlash, And Sector Anxiety
• 14:20 Joy, Resilience, And Keeping The Work Alive
• 18:40 Community, Co-Productions, And Hyper-Local Focus
• 23:25 Funding Shifts, NEA Guidelines, And Tradeoffs
• 28:05 Measuring Success: KPIs Over Noise
• 31:25 AI’s Promise, Limits, And Trust Gap
• 37:05 Cultural Moments Of 2025
• 44:30 Takeaways, Listener Prompt, And Closing

Transcript

Al: 0:01

Welcome to Moving Forward with Evolution Management Consultants, the podcast where we dive deep into the dynamic world of nonprofit arts management. I'm your host, Al Hartley, and I'm thrilled to have you join us on this journey today. In each episode, we'll explore the ever-evolving landscape of the nonprofit art sector. We'll bring you thought-provoking discussions and innovative strategies to equip you with the knowledge and inspiration to take your organization to new heights. Now, let's get started. Welcome folks to Moving Forward. Thank you for continuing to join us as we come to the end of this 2025. You know, uh, and so we thought, you know, as the year comes to a close that we'd do a reflective episode that was really talking about, you know, moments, you know, um, takeaways from this year, uh, as we leave the year of 2025 and about to enter 2026, you know, and overall kind of thinking about what are some of the questions that 2025 left for us, you know, what were some of the themes and challenges of this year in the arts and culture sector? Um, you know, there was politics, there was AI, there's certainly culture in general. So we're gonna try to get into it today uh and give you some unvarnished and honest thoughts uh about what happened this year. Um, and so we're really gonna stick into 2025. We might talk a little bit about 2026, but gonna try to save that for next week's episode uh as our final episode of the year. And as always, I'm joined by my colleagues Leandro and Tif. Hey Tiff. Hola, hola, hola, hey Leandro, hiang, good to see you both. Gosh, y'all. It um I I I keep telling you all, I feel like ever since October, that I'm like, I can't believe 2025 is over. Um, you know, and that we're finally at a place where we're like, what in the world happened this year? And I I'll at least tell you from as an initial start that I remember coming into January at one point being like, Oh, I really don't quite know what's gonna happen this year. I I don't have really a picture in my head of what what in the world is gonna go down, you know. Um, and sure enough, you know, in the blink of an eye, here we are in December, you know, at the end of it. So, you know, I wanted to kick off our conversation by asking you both, what happened this year? You know, is is there a theme or a feeling for all of the people that we've talked to in arts and culture, some of the conversations that we've had, what we've seen, you know, in the larger world. You know, for you, what's a theme or an event that you really hang on to right now? Either one of you want to start? Tiff, Leandro, Leandro, you look like you have a thought, so go.

Leandro: 3:09

Um, yeah, I I'm sure I can start. I think that for me, uh, it's hard to answer this question because the theme that I can pull out of this year feels like dissonance. Um, I think that there's a lot of dissonance happening. And I and I was as I was thinking about this question, um, there were sort of three examples that came up for me. The first is that um, you know, even the people that I've been talking to that's that are like, we're doing really well, right? We're selling out, our shows are popular again, our audiences are coming back, they are still stuck struggling financially, right? Even the um organizations that are successful are struggling. And why are they struggling? Because inflation is at an all-time high, because contributed revenue continues to be a risky endeavor when you look at how contributed revenue has been impacted, which I'm sure we'll talk about more um as we go through this episode. But that's, you know, so even you can have a packed house, a packed lobby, and still have the concern of your finances. So there's that dissonance. Um, at the same time, and relatedly, we're talking about all-time highs on Broadway, right? Earlier this season, we talked about that report that came out that Broadway earning was at an all-time high. And what at that point, we had asked the question of like, does this translate to um nonprofit? How do nonprofits read this? And I think as we're getting toward the end of 25, that continues to be um to bear to not bear out for the nonprofit sector, right? And uh, we see as we see some reports coming out. Um, and so I think that for me, dissonance is the is the name of the year of of looking around and saying, like, but even if things look okay, there's this um uh there's this underlying worry and a very re real worry that's happening, uh, which is not the like brightest way to start this episode. But that is what, like, you know, if you're asking me about thinking about 2025, for me, it's like seeing one thing and feeling another. And I feel that on an individual level, and I sort of feel that on a collective organizational level too.

Al: 5:22

That's a great start off. Tip, how about you? What do you what do you think about this year or what sticks with you?

Tiff: 5:28

I think uh what I have seen is organizations have still not quite figured out how to bounce back from the pandemic, uh, you know, five, four years later. Um, and I see that in the audiences as well, that audience behavior has drastically changed uh since pre-pandemic. And so it's it's like a brand new world, right? And I don't think organizations have truly figured that out yet. Of how do we manage, how do we run, how do we continue to engage our audiences and our donor base post-pandemic. Um, and I and I think that's like how do I live life post-pandemic, right? Because I mean the pandemic, you know, I'm I'm for one, you know, if you Google me, you'll see it pop up, but I almost died from COVID in March of 2024 or 2020, my god, 2024. 2020. Um and um, you know, a lot of people would just like open up their eyes and people's lives change drastically um from there. So um yeah, I think um I'm hoping that at least in 2026 that we can start to bounce back, um, start to see audiences coming back, or just changing the way that we uh produce work um or you know run our organizations to help um gain a new audience.

Al: 7:16

Yeah, I think what resonates to me for from both your answers, I think it's this real dissonance and still feeling the aftershocks and the after effects of COVID. Um, and part of that dissonance, I think even this year, that I may be even overhyped during COVID myself was thinking that COVID was just gonna change everything. You know, it showed that we could work from home, it showed that, you know, because we were not out in the streets all the time, you know, the air got better, you know, that we could have more work-life balance. Uh, and this year, not only with a new administration, but I think it was sort of like uh both the administration but also the environment sort of switched in some ways to be like, all right, if we're gonna go back, we want to go back to like a pre-2020 moment of people are gonna come back in the office, you know, we're going to sort of move away from this diversity, equity, inclusion aspects, you know, that we all talked about, but really are just gonna shelve, um, especially frankly, since the administration may come after us because of it. Um, and so there's a real piece that that to me feels like where nonprofits and arts organizations struggle is what is the world and the context in which we're operating now, and not only now, but into the future and as we go over these next three years, you know, it's sort of like the ground shifts beneath your feet. And the the way I thought about it was actually after the inauguration, uh, and I think a lot of nonprofit leaders having kind of an oh shit moment of like, oh shit, they're actually gonna do this. Oh shit, they're like, you know, Trump is gonna take over as the chair and and running the Kennedy Center, you know, oh shit, they're gonna actually require this language around, you know, gender uh to be, you know, an affirming around two genders, being, you know, our the way that we operate. So it does feel like there are these real disconnecting moments of what people perceived or thought would happen, and there's been such a dramatic pivot and a dramatic shift for audiences, for what's been on stage. You know, the last part I'll say that I I think about, and I'm curious, you know, where you all see it within arts organizations is I also think I heard from from clients, from people who are working out in theater and arts and entertainment of just how much people were looking for almost happy talk productions, middle of the road productions, you know, or things that feel highly familiar, you know, to people. Um, and I think that's where again I see this dissonance of well, it feels like earned revenue-wise, some people are trying to come back in audiences and same with contributed revenue, but then you have some places that still feel uh, but the the model of the 60s and how we run just doesn't feel like it's operating anymore, uh, or at the level that we expected it to operate. So that that's a bit of where I feel 2025 has been. But part of what I take as a bit of a uh uh or more core is around this thought of oh, people really had challenges with some of the more, let's be honest, like BIPOC and people of color work that focus so much on identity, um, and really wanting to find a way to say, how can we make you happy? How can we entertain you? You know, how can we just give you a story that doesn't feel like it has something else on top of it?

Leandro: 11:18

Well, and Al, I uh I think for me, uh uh in the way you just described it, and what I felt throughout um those conversations, uh is also um as though these things are mutually exclusive, right? I think that um my sort of pushback to that is yeah both can be true, right? Like artists of color are making joyful work that is about entertainment, right? And like so that's I think my response to those things is that even if the sort of curation of topic has swung in one direction, that doesn't mean that we have to swing back um to what we know, right? There is a um there is a world that suits us all, right? I look for I I you all know that I'm really inspired by Adrian Marie Brown. And Adrian Adrian Marie Brown really taught me of look for the world from that has more possibility, right? Um, not the world that has less possibility. And uh so I and that's I it it was striking me as we were all talking that like it's a heavy year, right? I'm just gonna I think that that's a a fair thing to say, right, in all of our responses. I think that people are tired. Um uh I think that people are are feeling that. And I think um, if I could just add one more theme that uh I think is really important to name, is that we keep going anyway, right? That that it the that it keeps happening. Um somebody told me once that um theater is like uh theater's like a cockroach, um, and that it lives in all the dark spaces and you'll never get rid of it. Um and so like I think that I I I remember that whenever I start to feel a little bit like everything is too heavy, in that A, like this art form that we have is very old and will outlast us, right? I I have I have like a lot of faith in that. Um, and because of that, the art will find the way to exist. And ultimately we're all here for the art, right? And maybe our model is not gonna work. Um, but what we keep doing is we keep going in the best way we know how. And I think this year showed that. You mentioned that moment of freeze, right? At the beginning of this year, um, or or of like, oh my god, oh shit, are they actually doing this? And I saw in that a moment of freeze, right? A moment of organizations being like, we're gonna hold everything. We're just like, we don't know what's going on. Um, we have to take a beat and see what's gonna happen, and then we'll make some decisions. I felt that over the course of the year. Um, and uh, and then people were like, oh, wait, we keep going, right? Like, no matter what this administration tries to do, our work is to continue to make art that impacts our communities. Um, and so for me, that is also underneath all of this stuff that is heavy, the thing carrying it, is that we keep going and we have uh we continue to have belief in the power of theater. And we've seen examples of that. Um, we continue to see examples of that as we talk to people um who are out in the field, you know, that the work impacts people, and um so I I wanted to just bring a little bit of light to what is uh because I think we have to remember that like there are also themes of finding joy um and returning to joy.

Al: 14:51

Yeah, I remember Tiff, you talked about that actually the end of last year of like the way you get through it is through community. Um you get through it by being together, sticking together, saying, you know, we're gonna lock arms, you know, and be with each other. But I'm curious, Tiff, for you, like where did you see moments of community this year, or did you see moments where people were like, We're not gonna be in community, we're gonna do our own thing and back away from whatever we need to back away from in order to survive, you know. But you know, it was so powerful.

Tiff: 15:26

Yeah, it's interesting what what Leandra just said too of like my thought was um I think we had four years of Biden, so we were used to politics not really being newsworthy, right? Like, like we didn't see the president for like a while and we didn't hear nothing, and then we were like, cool, right? And then I think we had to get used to a Trump administration again, even though I'm still not used to it. But I think it's like that kind of like oh shit, what's gonna happen today? Like I saw some of the New York Times posted this morning about um I'm saying I'm uh the the Cuban from Florida. Um yeah. Anyways, that um was changing the fonts from back to Times Roman uh Times New Roman Roman, Times New Roman, um becoming from Calibri because they had changed it, the Biden administration had changed it because calibre is easier to read for people who have uh vision impairment. Um, and then he was like, it's not professional, and it's a waste. So because it's a waste, we're gonna go waste some more money and change everything back. It's like stupidity, like you know what I'm saying? So it's like every day you see something and you're just like, um, and here we go. And so I think at the very beginning we had to pause and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, we don't know what's happening, and now we just can't got used to we don't know what's gonna happen to mom, my mom's just do whatever the hell we want to do. Um, right? So um, so I do think there's like a numbness when you were talking about dissonance. I was thinking about numbness. Um and I feel that way often. Um, but you know, uh one thing for sure, you know, I I led the search for the president CEO of NAMOC this year and seeing um the National Association of Latino Arts and Cultures, and I was leading the search while our people were actively being kidnapped off the streets across the United States and still are, right? And that was really interesting to have or you know, these to be having this conversation about how do we assist our artists, um, not just just funding their art, but like funding legal bills or or being you know, safe havens or anything like that. It was like, you know, really digging into your community. And I and I think that that's at least what we've seen. And similar, you know, to PCS, uh Portland Center Stage, where we're currently working on the managing director search, I think we've just seen uh a lot of local regional organizations really um digging back into their communities, giving back to the listening to their communities, thinking differently about how to fundraise money, how to engage new audiences, um, and really focusing hyper-local, um, which I think is is super important because you know, so often regional theaters, their eye is on Broadway. Yeah. Right. Um, and I think I think that um knowing you know everything that was happening with the NEA. Um and overall, you know, I had predicted last year that we would have funders leave, and that's what happened. Um you know, um, but at the same time, for instance, I'll use, you know, Portland Center Stage as an example. That was a great time for them to expand to uh younger donors, um, donors of color, like just a very different group than they usually engage with, um, which is the same thing I said last year was that we're gonna have more like people who are going to be quote unquote like woke donors, right? Like people who are making sure to keep it going. Um so um yeah, it's been really interesting to see what's happening across the country in different in different parts of the country um as we're facing all of these um political and economic stresses um in 2025. And similar, even though even though I have some good predictions from last year uh or from last year going to this year, I ain't got nothing for next year.

Al: 19:43

Just gonna walk into 2026 and be like, give me what you can. Okay, like let's just do this, you know.

Leandro: 19:50

Um can I can I take a stab at your question? I have I had a thought when you asked about um like locking arms and finding community, because I think it's a really good point.

Tiff: 19:59

Yeah. Um

Leandro: 20:00

Is where I saw that like on a on a sector-wide level is co-productions, right? I think we saw a proliferation of co-productions that are that are happening around the country. And I think that's an example of the theater field being like, we've got to do this together, right? And we have to figure out how to make this work as an industry. And it's one way that people are trying as a as they find a way toward a new business model, right? Is how much um co-production is useful for us, how much is rental useful for us, which also involves a level of like having to build into your community, um, different pockets of your community, but your community nonetheless. And so when you talked about like locking arms, I think there are some examples as a sector that we've done that also, uh, that that for me give me a lot of hope in how we'll continue to work together because I think these issues and a lot of the things that these organizations are facing are bigger than one organization, and therefore it's gonna take us having to figure it out together.

Al: 21:05

Yeah, there's like two things from that that I have thought about as y'all were talking, is like one um around that sector piece. I very much remember seeing so many posts from the National Council of Nonprofits who were really like, We're gonna take this administration to court, you know, we are going to get language removed, we're gonna challenge this piece. And I thought that was so important as a way and as kind of a signal in the midst of all of the noise and all of the uncertainty of saying, No, you know, artists still have a right to, you know, free speech. Organizations have a right to do and care about the things that they want to care about. Just because you say they should remove diversity and inclusion doesn't mean that, you know, this idea that the government is telling organizations and telling private enterprise, here's what you can and can't say. Um, and still having a sector-wide entity saying, Yeah, that's illegal, we're gonna challenge that, you know, we're gonna be up in the president's face and up in the administration's face, you know, when it comes to filing lawsuits, you know, and really pulling people, you know, towards this light of no, remember, there are ways we can react, there are ways that we can also push back and work together. Um, and the second thing that I think about, and I'm curious, you know, because I I I'm still going on this dissonance piece, where you know, now we're getting studies where some studies are like the arts are doing terrible, and some studies are like, well, some of the arts are actually doing really great, you know, or like Broadway is doing really well, or some of the larger houses are maybe doing really well, but also really financially struggling. Um, and then I also have thought about two things that I really noticed a bit more this year. Um, was one, some feeder companies taking feeder purposely out of their name and moving to a strategy that says, we're not just the sixth-place season, we're the sixth-play season, and we invite Alex Edelman to do his thing. Um, and so I'm curious if that means for the for what some takeaways of 2025 are is survive any way that you can. You know, if it means pivoting for your audiences and your donors to meet them where they are, maybe that is you know part of a lesson from 25 of saying, you know what, to your point, Leandro, we stopped for a moment to be like, what the hell is going on? And then once we sort of double dove back in, it was trying things that saying, okay, let's keep making art, let's keep getting people back here. You know, that's a little bit of what I feel like I've seen, but it's where I'm curious how y'all might respond to this disconnect of, well, are we doing well? Are we not doing well overall?

Tiff: 24:01

Yeah, I think, you know, I'm gonna go with the more pessimistic view in this of, you know, we saw organizations when the NEA came out with their guidelines for their grant granting process. Um, yeah, we did see especially the theater industry come together and like fight on the on you know on behalf of that. But you know, it was very targeted of if you do any work in DEI, then if your work that you're looking for funding for has anything to do with DEI, we're not gonna fund it. And then there's organizations like, you know, like I'm just an example of like national black theater who are like, well, what what are we gonna do? Because that's like literally who we are, right? So um, you know, I think a lot of people, you know, we have BCS come out and say, like, you know, bumpers and a stage, like, well, we're just we're not gonna, we're not going to apply. And so people were protesting and fighting back in their own ways. Um, but at the same time, there were organizations who canceled productions, um, canceled canceled productions written by black women, canceled productions written by trans writers. Um, and so it's it's both like, what do we have to do to stay afloat? It's like you have to make that decision, which is like every decision you gotta make, honestly. Like, you're like, am I going to give in or am I gonna fight back? Um and and I think some people gave in, and that's really disappointing, not you know, for their staff, that's disappointing for um, you know, their their audiences as well, like, or even like their audiences like looking at the mission statement and saying, like, well, you know, I really don't, I have a different interpretation of your mission statement than what you do. And um, I'm not gonna participate in that. So I've seen I saw both that were you know talking about dissonance of like of people fighting back and people just like we're just gonna give into this. Um, and we are going to comply.

Al: 26:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm curious uh as a strategist too, like you, you know, what do you land somewhere in the middle more so about well or not doing well? Is there a different way to look at this for arts organizations from the past year?

Leandro: 26:21

Uh, don't call me out like that, Al Hartley. Um, uh because um my answer is like this is the reason why you should define what your KPIs are. Like this is the key reason that you should paint what success looks like for your organization. Because there's gonna be a ton of noise out there about how things are going well and how things are not going well. And what you need to be able to do is be able to know how do we measure success. And for a lot of people, because of where they are right now, we have to be honest, finances are a part of that. Because if we don't make our budget, then we can't continue to be an organization, and then we definitely can't fulfill our mission, right? Where so that's where I agree I'm also disappointed that folks maybe complied and some complied in advance of the of needing to. Um and I think that there's a longer term question of like, but if I can't do if I can't survive this, then I can't serve the people that I meant to serve long term, you know, and that's a a tricky question. So I think important to name that right now for a lot of organizations, finances are front and center, and we can't we can't just rate like roses and rainbows our way out of this, of like name all these KPIs that don't have to do with reality, that don't have to do with like the amount of money that we need to make and spend to fulfill the mission in the way that we can. Um, but it does mean that beyond that, uh, you need to define is getting audiences back uh the important thing? Is um like what is the focus at any given moment? And so that is where I think you organizations can discern from all of the things that'll be coming out in terms of how well we're doing versus how well we're not doing, when you're looking at those things, you have to look at them and say, but is this what we care about? Um because those surveys have the things they care about. Um, and you have to figure out what is it that we care about and where are the studies that are measuring the things we care about. Those are the studies that are useful to us. Um and these other things, they're useful to know is like what's happening in the industry for us to look out on, and we can track how on trend we are. But maybe if we're not on trend to those things, it's because it's not a priority for us, and that's okay, right? Um, and so, but but I think that um underneath all of that is we have to be financially sustainable in whatever way we think that means right now. I think sustainability is um still elusive to a lot of organizations and not just nonprofits, yeah, yeah.

Al: 29:06

It feels it feels that you know in corporate and you know, personally for folks, like you know, the fact that I think you hear affordability be in so many different conversations, even in arts organizations, right? Where even I reflect on the idea of getting a uh a theater ticket now, going to see dinner, parking, all of that. We've talked about that for years, and yet it seems like this year people really tuned in around wow, that's going up, that's going up, that's going up. This it just feels sort of ever-ending, you know, around you know, that particular A word. I think another A-word that you heard a lot of this year, though, was artificial intelligence, you know. And what struck me too this year, in terms of figuring out, like, you know, again, is this a trend? Is this something we're doing individually, is how people either adopted AI, how some of the landscape around AI changed. You know, we had an earlier, you know, whole month of talking about artificial intelligence getting into, you know, arts organizations, you know, into how we make art. Um, and I think if you had told me at the beginning of this year, that you know, chat GPT would still be strong, but like other competitors would really be coming in to say, like, actually, we've maybe got a better version or a better model. You know, I know we've, you know, the three of us in some way have talked about Gemini in the last, you know, month or month and a half. Um, and so it's where I'm surprised, even getting at the end of the year, or maybe I shouldn't be, that you know, there's a different conversation about how are we gonna use this still, you know, that that mass adoption is still uh, yes, people are using it, but like what is the payoff at the end of the day? Um, and then I think having other other platforms that suddenly you're like, oh, the you're you're really giving me a different look at how maybe I could use artificial intelligence, you know. Uh so I'm also curious if y'all have reactions there around, you know, what sort of what is another maybe theme or takeaway for me is you know, the AI race is still on, um, but I think there's still some real questions around what's the payoff at the end of the day? You know, what what is this gonna be? You know, where where does the efficiency or the revenue show up? You know, when you talk about that financial piece, Leandro, for organizations of all right, I get it can cut some things out and probably cut people out, but then when does that start adding to my strategy or how I'm moving forward?

Leandro: 31:44

Yeah, um, I don't think that AI uh for nonprofits is gonna cut jobs. I just don't. I think like I think we are running as lean as we probably can be in the amount of humans that we currently have. We're gonna need to manage the AIs that once they arrive, right? I think that like there uh my view of it is that it will um actually hopefully long term make organizations larger in terms of what the staff capacity is with a smaller number of humans, because all of your humans then have to become managers, right? Um so uh I it for me it's it's it's less about cutting, but I think that um uh I think that AI has grown leaps and bounds, and right now it has what I what I've like heard being called like a it's a trust problem. People don't really trust AI yet. Um and actually distrust of AI has grown over the course of this year. Like there are studies out there that show that consumer trust of AI has decreased. Um, and I think that that's twofold. One, I think is it has a publicity problem. Everybody's talking about it and everybody's tired of talking about it, and then you go into it, and um, because like it does take some getting used to and understanding of how prompts work and there is some training that is involved, sure. Uh people are disillusioned with the output. Um, and so I think that there's that element of it after hearing all these things about how everybody's doing AI, but I, you know, we're not we're I don't think AI for the most part is doing a full human's job. It's not replacing a full person yet. It is it is like supercharging what a person who knows how to use it can do, um, but is not like doing it for us yet. And there are questions around whether or not it will ever be able to actually do that, um, that have arisen over the last year. But overall, I think that we've become already a little bit um underwhelmed by things that like a year ago we would have had our socks blown off by. Right. Like, and I think that we've come to expect a thing of AI because people are talking about it so much. We've come the expectations of it have in some ways outpaced what is a very high technologically like technological improvement rate. Um, what Gemini can do today, there is no world in which it could have done at the beginning of this year, right? Um they went back when they they released the newest version of Gemini. Now I'm gonna get really nerdy and I'm sorry, it'll take two seconds. Um uh the newest release of Gemini actually like took a look at how they trained models, so they revisited what the training process was and had some real breakthroughs in learning in the training of the model that becomes Gemini, made it more efficient and made the um output of it what we see today, which is also like multi-modimodal, right? So there are many modes that you can use in Gemini, both pictures and um text all in the same chat, is something that was not possible at the beginning of this year. Um, and I think now we're like, oh, that's old news. But I mean, how crazy is that? Like before it used to be you needed a software to create images, you needed a software to talk to chat with, and you need another software to like give you the script for it. And now it's all sort of um you can do it all on one platform. And so for me, it's about um the the real technological advance, which has led to me, and I've I've talked a little bit about this, is like, I actually maybe am in a place where I think organizations should be preparing their data, but maybe not making huge investments in AI because keeping up with the rate of change is um very challenging. And it's something I'll be talking about as we go into next year. But um, as we as we think about how to strategize around AI, um, some of my thinking is currently changing, so I'm excited to dive more into that in January.

Al: 36:01

Yeah, yeah, that's that's an interesting piece because I again I think all of us kind of you know, or or I shouldn't say all of us, I certainly started off with on the chat GPT chain for a long time, and then was kind of like, What is chat GPT telling me sometimes? You know, even find it challenging my students sometimes of like, did you put this in the chat? I could sort of tell because I'm like, How did chat get this answer? You know, um, and now I think where where Gemini is interesting to me, at least at the end of this year, is being like, Wow, this feels a little more seamless and maybe has a little more umph there than sometimes what chat had, and maybe that does have to do with the training of rather than chat something what felt like just enter garbage in. If you want to enter it in, great, it'll just take it, you know. And so that idea of looking at training is is really intriguing. Um, y'all, I wanna before we close out, you know, we we love talking about arts and culture, so you know, I'm gonna turn to Tiff on this around, you know, cultural moments this year. Um, you know, there's a lot that happened. Uh, but Tiff, I'm curious for you, you know, are there are there some that really stuck out to you this year in any form, you know, that you think defines 2025?

Tiff: 37:19

Um, I think for sure Beyonce's Cowboy Carter tour was a huge moment in culture. I think, especially, you know, because she won the CMA Best Country Album Award, and they went ahead and changed the category to contemporary country album because they were mad that Beyonce won an album, um, that award. Um, so I think the Cavalier Carnivore was really something, especially seeing, you know, Beyonce's in her 40s. And she's out here doing her thing and showing all kinds of people. I'm very excited for Act Three to come out. And um I think it was an important part of this year in particular, seeing um, you know, countries always been black, but really solidifying, you know, that even more. I think Bad Honey's residency in Puerto Rico was like really Puerto Rican, it was like my father and I could talk for hours about the residency of not just like the actual like what he did with that, of you know, spending a year hiring artists that normally work on the movies and have to leave Puerto Rico, but hiring you know, local artists to create the scent, and the scent was so intense, and there was so much intention behind the residency that um I feel like I mean, I don't know if anyone else can get that outside of being a Puerto Rican. Um, and so it was like a concert for Puerto Ricans by Puerto Ricans, and it was really amazing considering you know that we are in such a dire state and a colonized country and all of that. Um and then I think also the film centers in particular um also made a huge impact in our culture. Um, it was if you haven't seen it, please see it. It's beautifully done, but it really, you know, talked about it was just so symbolic and talking about race in a different kind of way and showing the Mississippi Delta in particular and the history of the Chinese community and the black community, the Mississippi Delta and the Irish community with the Black community. It was just it's an amazing film. And I and I think that also just um uh seeing black horror done in that way was um just really beautiful. And we're seeing that now with the awards season that they've been nominated a bunch of times for that. So those are the three things that happened this year culturally that I think made a huge impact.

Al: 39:58

Um you know, no, and I think Of that around Bad Bunny, you know, centers, you know, Beyonce's concert. I thought Beyonce's was great. Uh, and you know, being able to win the album of the year this year, it was just kind of like a chef's kiss on top of the career, you know. Leandro, I'm curious. You know, I know you your your books, TV, you know, movies, all of it, but curious if anything like stuck out to you as like, yeah, this was very 2025.

Leandro: 40:25

Uh Tiff said three things. I'll say one thing three times wicked, wicked, wicked. Um which is uh, I think defined this year culturally because it sort of fit almost within the calendar year, right? Wicked one came out last November, Wicked Two just came out, and in between, we had like a few months where we didn't hear from Ariana Grande and Cynthia Revo, and then they were back at it. Um and they and and they um interestingly, like I so I saw the second Wicked movie, I actually didn't love it. If you did, let's talk. Um, if you didn't, let's talk. But I I um what I told Trent after seeing it was like, I don't know if act two works without seeing act one in the same day, like separating them for me took the emotional resonance out of movie two, personally. Um, but all of that being said, the reason that I think that it was like the the sort of theme for that is again this dissonance, right? Is like it was this cultural zeitgeist moment. For me, it was a little dissonant because like everybody cared about this like nerdy musical theater thing that we all loved, but like suddenly everybody was obsessed with it. And I was like, are we cool? And then, like, no, right? The answer was no, but yes, the answer was still no. Uh, but it is like a very successful film and has a a huge following, but partially because they are both great films, um, at the end of the day, and um so I and then the thing that like sort of capped it for me is that uh there was also this like moment happening on the internet where people were like, the relationship between Ariana Grande and Cynthia Rivo is getting a little bit out of hand, right? Like, so then like there was that element of it. Uh, and then finally, um, the thing that like the for me, the straw that broke the camel's back was that I think it was a Samsung commercial. I was going to see a movie, and before the movie, there was a Samsung commercial where they had two phones where one was dressed up as Glinda and one was uh like the phones themselves. And I was like, So this is a commercial for Samsung, but it's using the IP of this movie from Wicked, and so who's actually paying whom in this situation for this ad? Not that that matters, but it just was like, okay, we've gone too far. Like capitalism swallows everything, and then it becomes cringe, yeah, and suddenly wicked that had been this like cultural phenomenon, like to me started to feel a little cringe. Um, and so, and that I don't know, that feels appropriate for 2025.

Al: 43:02

Cringe, you know, I like that, you know, like capitalism cringe of like this is everywhere, you know, Jeff Goldman doing commercials, you know, of like you could do this streaming service, and here it is at Target and Pink and Black, and you know, like Longer, like all the things that were everywhere that was like, Oh my god, you know, again, it goes back to that idea of like kind of recycling something that is a tale that you know is so beloved, and being like, Look, there's gonna be a whole generation that will be like, I remember Wicked, and Wizard of Oz was something that those older ancient people remember. And I'll be like, Oh my god, kill me. Um I think the the I'll bring two really quick things, you know. I know we gotta go. Uh, one is is that I always look at and see what wins at different award ceremonies. Again, to say, like, what does that say about you know, um, uh this moment? I think about the studio winning best comedy at the Emmys, um, which anyone listening here, if you ever want to know what arts management is like in a kernel, the studio is a really good example of just the amount of chaos that you have to deal with. Um, and I thought Seth Rogan and that whole team did a really good job of like talking about some of the existential threats uh to the movie industry. Um, I also think about like maybe happy ending winning best musical and purpose winning best play, family drama, you know, musical about digital relationships, you know, and the facimile there. Um, and so I think about that in terms of like what are some of the things that are winning. The second thing, though, that I think really sucked me into its vortex was Love Island. Um, it was not something I expected to get sucked into in 2025. I did not understand it. I was like, what is a bunch of Genziers being given phones and or actually not given phones, excuse me, not given phones, put on an island, they're all hot, they're all like you know, panning for the camera, and they are just filmed every day. And there was an episode every day, just about, and America voting like we want these two people to be together, we want this person gone, you know, just creating chaos. And so that show defined for me, I think, 2025 and being like, Oh, yes, let's all look at this like younger generation that is like struggle, like in many ways, struggling emotionally and financially, and then be like, Yeah, let's vote and see who we want paired together, you know, and who we want to win in this competition. Absolute insanity, but also over the sudden summer, suddenly I was like, Wow, this is like really in my face, and now I'm gonna watch all of it all of a sudden.

Leandro: 45:46

I mean, like you it you almost just described the TV show that they watch in Hunger Games, yes, basically, you know, like that's essentially what they do in Hunger Games, except this one people don't die, they fall in love or and or become internet famous. Yes, yes, they don't fall in love, they just get internet famous.

Al: 46:05

That's right, that's right. They get that that social media frame, Nick and Orlandria. I was like, I would never have paired you all together.

Tiff: 46:12

But the fact no idea what they're talking about, but cool.

Al: 46:15

I know, you know, fair for whoever's listening. It's like Nick and Orlandria. The fact that those two people are a couple, you're like, what in the world? And yet it also works. Question dissonance, dissonance, people, you know. Oh my god, y'all. I know we're over time, but uh, this was a great review, you know, about and I think real candidate around listen, you know, heaviness around what is going on, what's the uncertainty here? And I really reflect thinking too about just how much of an emotional cause, change, chaos, uncertainty can be, you know, versus you know what felt very consistent. Uh, but also, you know, that hope that I think we'll, you know, we'll talk about 2026 a bit next week. Um, but really thinking about, you know, hey, it's gonna take all of us doing it together, um, you know, and all of us still locking arms and and saying, yes, let's keep doing this. Um, um, so we want to hear from you, whether in comments or emailing us at emc at emc4.com. You know, what did you think defined 2025 for you? Um, you know, would love to hear your thoughts, you know, about how it was, where we're going. Um, but until then, you know, we will have one more episode to close out, you know, our 2025 next week. Uh, and then we will take a bit of a holiday break, you know, and talk a little bit more about what we have in store for 2026. And as always, at least as long as all three of us are here, Neandro and Tiff, I'm always glad to talk to y'all, you know. So thank y'all.

Leandro: 47:42

Thank you, thank you, and uh keep going, y'all. Keep going.