Moving Forward with EMC
Co-founders Al Heartley, Tiffany Vega, and Leandro Zaneti gather to discuss current topics facing non-profit arts leaders and organizations.
Moving Forward with EMC
What Could Happen In 2026?
The team looks ahead to 2026 with clear eyes about programming, funding, audiences, and the practical tools leaders can use to regain momentum. We argue for multi-year season plans that balances familiar titles with new work, a rebuilds middle donor base, and smart tech that amplifies people rather than replaces them.
Email us your ideas at emc@emcforward.com
This will be our last episode of the year! We're taking a break and will be back with more episodes in early 2026.
Welcome to Moving Forward with Evolution Management Consultants, the podcast where we dive deep into the dynamic world of nonprofit arts management. I'm your host, Al Hartley, and I'm thrilled to have you join us on this journey today. In each episode, we'll explore the ever-evolving landscape of the nonprofit art sector. We'll bring you thought-provoking discussions and innovative strategies to equip you with the knowledge and inspiration to take your organization to new heights. Now, let's get started. Woo! Woo! It is the end of the year, and 2026 will be here before we know it. So we thought we'd hop on here for a few minutes, talk about, you know, last week we talked a bit about what happened in 2025, what the hell went down. You know, today we're gonna get right into it in terms of some thoughts around 2026. And as always, I'm joined by Leandro and Tiff. Hey Tiff.
SPEAKER_01:Hola, hola, hola.
SPEAKER_00:Nice. And hey Leandro. Hi, good to see you both. First off, happy belated birthday, Leandro. You know, celebrating, you know, two days after what when this will air. So happy belated, you know. Um, and great to see you both, you know, before we get ready to sign off for the year. Um, and so hold on.
SPEAKER_01:You're not gonna get it by that easy. Happy birthday to you too, my friend.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, thank you, my fellow December baby.
SPEAKER_01:You know, those of you who don't know, Al and I uh are born one year and one day apart, I think, is right right out. I think that's right.
SPEAKER_00:It's as we were meant to be, you know. So we're gonna babies, babies, you know, and Tip has to deal with our Sagittarius energy, you know, of like Taurus energy, which is possibly worse. Listen, it's all good, good vibes and good juju between us. Um, no, I appreciate that, friend. So then let's, you know, uh hopefully next year, this time at the end of 2026, we will both celebrate yet again more birthdays. Um, you know, and we're trying to kind of look in our crystal ball, you know, which is probably a terrible thing to do. Um, but we're gonna try anyway, and being like, what should you be thinking about for 2026? Like, what the hell might go down? Um, so I'm just gonna dive straight in with y'all. Of what are you thinking about heading into this next year? What's your thoughts? What's your take?
SPEAKER_02:Um, yeah, so interesting was um, I was gonna say something, but then I saw and I sent this to you this this morning. I saw this article that came out that UCLA did a study that said that um in 2025, 91% of all creators of streaming television shows were white. Um and that just kind of sums up 2025 for me of um that we've seen consistently like diverse voices on on at least TV in Hollywood have been canceled. Um and um like really good shows, shows that came out saying like top 10 shows of the year, and they've been canceled. Um, and so to me, that's also a reflection of what we're seeing, you know, because usually what's on our stages and what's in Hollywood correlate together. Um and so I thought that was very interesting and is sort of showing the appetite of like even if if critics are like raving about shows, is that um the appetite of audiences? I don't know. I I I still feel like we haven't cracked this nut of what does an audience want? At least today's audience, what do they want?
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think for me that brings up the question, Tiff. I wonder what your perspective is on the question: are theaters supposed to program what audiences want or what they think audiences should want, right? Because I think that that's been a tension and curation right now. So, you know, there are there's the argument that says that theater should not be correlating to Hollywood, but actually should be um leading the pack and influencing what's on stages, right? Knowing that so many of these TV writers um have a basis in theater. And so I guess for you, when you say like giving audiences what they want, where do you fall in that balance?
SPEAKER_02:It's a hard balance. Um I say that because most ADs I'm gonna get in trouble. Um most ADs, I feel like, want to tell the audience what they want to see. You know, um, I think that's always their initial um way and and kind of like knowing I know better what you want to see. Right. Um like I said, that might get me in trouble, but that's that's kind of like the way I've seen it in my career. Um I think that oftentimes, um, and especially because um, you know, a theater takes on the personality of its artistic leader most times. Um, and so I feel like the audiences have agreed with the artistic leaders before. Um, and I say before, like pre-pandemic. I think the audiences are no longer agreeing with ADs. Um, I feel like ADs have to have a um, I think they just have to rethink how they're curating this their seasons. And and it's not any more of like, I I'm smarter than you, I know what you want to see. It's more of I need to actually pay attention and and and speak to audiences and knowing that it's not compromising my own artistic creativity if I give the audiences what they want. But I gotta put my own spin on it, yeah. Yeah, oh, you talk a lot about balance.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, oh, you talk a lot about the consumer, you know. In our conversation on Slack earlier this week, you really took that consumer approach about like reconnecting with audiences. Where do you fit on this? Um, what audiences want, and how do you stop, right? Um, knowing that a lot of the the plays that have the most success are like Dialem for Murder, right? Agatha Christie um shows. And if that's what audiences want, is that what theater should be doing?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, um I so to me, I think yes in some ways, right? Like, I think there is a yes of, you know, in this moment where a lot of people are really going toward safety, that let's just, you know, let's play it safe, let's get people and butts back in seats, right? That there is this feeling from a couple of folks that we've talked to where they're like, Well, I like the show, but the theater's like half full, you know, or even 30% full. So if you want to get back to, you know, a level of success with an audience, I think you've got to have a strong core. And that strong core may be like, right now, I want my Dallin for murder, I want my uh Arthur Miller, I want my William Ng, you know, like I want some throwback to the classics. And where I think there's this tension to me is like, are we going to the future and full-throatedly to the future, or are we trying to go to the past and go full throatedly to the past? And I do think some folks are are thinking about, you know, we do have to revive some of those classic um properties that people know, and that people are like, you know what, I know that thing, I can bet on that thing, I'm gonna go see that thing. Uh, and so that's where I think I well, that's where I will say I fall is, you know what, right now no one has risk on the table, and no one really is is is wanting to be the person that is out there being like, I'm gonna put on the risky show. And so strategically, it might be better to say, you know what, I need another programming of all things that are palatable for an audience in order to get them back, and then maybe 27, 28 is when we think about taking risk again.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's interesting to me. Um, it's that's an a surprising answer to me from both of you, to be quite honest, right? Because I think very often we've been the the people who are like um put more diverse voices on stage, and a lot of what you just named are from white white writers. We started this part of the discussion talking about how um most of uh film and TV is white, and maybe they're doing the same thing that y'all are saying, right? It's like they're listening to the consumers, so it also is a reflection of us. Like that maybe is is something I can pull from this conversation, and I'm gonna, you know, uh while y'all are saying this, I'm hearing the artists in my head being like, Hold on, when do I finally get produced? I've been waiting, right? Like people who are currently writing plays are starving for opportunity. Um, and they in in many ways I find that theater artists feel like um the theater organizations should be there to support them, right? Um, and so there's a tension also between who do you serve um in this moment, in what you're saying. And I uh for me, I I have a hard time thinking about like how do you respond to the artist that says, but hold on, if we're just going back to the past, how do you continue to make this art form alive now? When is my turn?
SPEAKER_00:Totally. But I I guess what I would ask in that, you know, it from my maybe more management perspective, is then artists, what is the risk you want me to take? Um, practically, right? Like, what should I then be looking for? Because I think there's a there is an old formula that basically said, you know what, program like four really well-known titles and then put one risky thing out there. And so some of what I can imagine my artist colleagues feeling are like, well, damn, like there's maybe one or two slots for my wild idea out there. So then am I just going to think about, well, what is the thing that's gonna get me programmed, even if that's not the riskiest thing I could make, or do I go all in on the risky thing that I want to make, knowing that, you know, I imagine kind of something like Michael R. Jackson in a strange loop of like it might take me a while before it really reaches the pinnacle, you know? You know, it's actually interesting. Yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:I had a very detailed dream last night about Hell's Kitchen.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, okay, okay. Don't know why. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and it just makes me think about my friend Christy as and uh just his career, right? As a writer. And it makes me think about other folks, um, other friends of mine like Domini Morusso, like Katori Hall, of they had to where they found their big their biggest successes was by listening to the audience and giving them what they wanted. Now, it was a fluke that Chad Daty wound up being like, you know, nominated for a Pulitzer in like one of his most popular plays, right? Um, because he wrote it. He Chris wrote uh the elaborate entrance of Chad Dady. Like, I'm just gonna write this thing that I want to write, and it's never gonna be produced, right? Um, but his ultimately his big his biggest success has been Hell's Kitchen. And I say that like financial success has been Hell's Kitchen.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Um Hell's Kitchen being grounded in like Alicia Keys' work, you know, like a popular artist's work.
SPEAKER_02:Correct.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um you know it's it's crazy because I had this dream about um uh Hell's Kitchen last night, and then and I'm forgetting her name. I know her her Instagram name, Chojo Bean. Um anyway, she's a like a famous uh she plays Alicia's mother in the musical, and she was she did a performance last night at the Apollo. I don't know why I'm having these dreams, but um then I also think about Dominique, right? And Dominique, she I've had her speak to my students before, and she has told my students, like, yeah, you want to write these like plays with like 15 casts members and like all of this. And she was like, But it's not gonna be produced, right? Your four-person play and figure out how to make it work in that. So even she's she was being smart, like even her Detroit series, her trilogy of like looking to see like cast sizes, how affordable is it going to be for organizations to produce this. But then she also has the Motown musical, right? And and and and and using that, that sort of where she her her niche is telling stories about black people of Detroit, you know, let me do that, and it I'm still fulfilling my mission, but doing it in a way that is financially successful. So, um, and I think Jocelyn Beal, the same thing. Like, I've seen so many of my friends who struggled in their careers early on, who have been able to figure out, and it's kind of like how we've done it, right? Been able to figure out like I have this purpose, I have this personal mission statement. How can I flip it and pivot and and still fulfill my mission statement as an artist while making it financially successful? A white writer could not write the temptations, the temptations musical, right?
SPEAKER_03:Yes, we would revolve out the only person who could write that is Dominique Morusso, right?
SPEAKER_00:Um where do y'all think though that that then even organizations should look at in 2026 like that risk piece? Is it is it looking for something that feels familiar, but maybe is a different take? Like I think of like that ham of like, oh, here's Hamlet, but for black people, you know, like and Leandro, maybe I'll point this to you of how should organizations think about when to then take that risk on that artist that is like, well, hell, give me a shot, give me a slot in something that is gonna get this out in the world.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um, I think that there is no one right answer for all organizations, which is a cop out. So I'll I'll but I should I'll say that, and then I will add that um honestly, I believe that risk is something that should be uh mission aligned, right? I think it mission should come first.
SPEAKER_03:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01:And for the people who are making that calculus, I think there is a financial piece of it. I there are folks who are not gonna like hearing that, but I think as curators, part of what we're doing is also matching the art to the business model. Um, and so I think the calculus there is uh not only in this year, but long term. Here's what I'll say. It took me a little minute to get here, but here we are. Um I believe in curating for uh more than one year at a time. So I don't mind if you're saying, hey, in this coming year, we are gonna do three or four well-known plays. Maybe we will do one or two new plays that we consider to be risky, right? We also should define this word risky. It does not just mean people of color, which is like it's become code at in some places, and I don't want that to be true here. So, like, that's not what we mean by risk, right? What we mean by risk is uh no IP. Um, you don't the writer is relatively unknown in your place, and the play is maybe a new play world premiere, right? All things that work against even an amazing new play. Yep. Um, and so uh, but if you're only saying that to me, I have a problem, right? If you're only saying we're doing these new plays or we're doing one or two new plays and four classics, but if you're saying to me this season we're doing four classics so that we can start to get um an audience for that, next next year we're gonna um link new plays to the classics that people saw this past year, right? So now you can say, Hey, did you love that play by August Wilson? We found the next August Wilson. Come see the play. We think you'll love it, right? So, but for me, that kind of longitudinal artistic strategy is the way where you can tell artists, hey, this year you're gonna see some things in our season that you might be like, why couldn't that have been me? But know that I'm gonna be coming back to you in year two and year three of this plan that I've created to get you on our stage, right? I believe in you. My audience is maybe not ready for you. And rather than put you on our stage and hope that we can find the new audience, I want to build them with things they know that remind me of you, and then we'll produce your play in two years, in three years. And um, maybe there's an artistic model of a commission that can be based in that, right? Of um long term. The other thing that we saw this past year was uh a falling off of commission work. And so that's another way to think about long-term commission work that says um this is not an artistic strategy on a year-by-year basis, but a long-term artistic strategy that reinvigorates our audience and gets us to where we want it to be because we can start to pretend we're already there, but I think we've seen some theaters try that, and they have a really hard time building those audiences at a pace that can keep up with the kind of change they're trying to make.
SPEAKER_02:I think there's also another I have a prediction for 2026.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, go for it.
SPEAKER_02:Is that 2026 is the year that we built back the audience from the pandemic. I think audiences didn't really come back until like 2022, right? And even they did not come back the way they were, and I think. Since 2022, we have been trying to figure out how to get them back to pre-pandemic behavior. But as we know, the world before is no longer that world is gone.
SPEAKER_03:It's gone.
SPEAKER_02:Our behavior as a as a people globally has changed dramatically since the pandemic.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, so I think 2026 is the year that we're like, okay, we have seen three years of decline in audiences. And that we've seen this across the um United States, right? It's multiple organizations. So this is the year that we focus. And I know that already seasons have been announced, right? But I think we'll see when um when seasons are announced later next year is is a shift of like we need to build back this audience. And when you were talking, Leandra, I was thinking bringing audiences through a multi-year journey. And and recognizing that we cannot keep because we we've been kind to we've been trying to replicate everything that we did before 2020, and we just it's not working because it will never work again. Um, and we need to 2026 is the year that we're that we're working to get our audiences back.
SPEAKER_00:You know, it reminds me of this this uh question I heard or something to ask on on another podcast where they were like, what could go right in 26? And maybe what could go right is, you know, rather than than thinking audiences are gonna keep falling off and and whatnot, you know, maybe there is a point of, you know what, actually the consumer might bounce back in a way that says, you know what, I'm willing to do the risk thing because I I do think what some theaters and arts organizations are reacting to in that listening to the consumer is that the consumer is is saying something with their wallet, and they see consumers saying with their wallet, hey, if I see an IP that maybe I recognize a Christmas Carol, Dracula, you know, um Hamlet, the Crucible, I'm willing to maybe put throw my dollars there, you know. But if I see something that I don't recognize, that's like a new play by this new undergrad writer or graduate writer, nah, I want to take that risk, you know, and so it might be the rebound of the consumer saying, all right, you know what? The last year I had to figure out what was going on, maybe in 26, you know, things get better and actually I feel better taking risks. But to y'all's point, it might take some time for organizations to hear that with people's dollars and feel comfortable saying, Oh, maybe we can program some other things now, you know, that are large cast sizes, that are new ideas, that are new musicals or covering new and really controversial subjects.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I love this question around what could go right, um, and uh because I have an answer, but it's a hard pivot from what we were just talking about. So go ahead the name um is that uh I've been doing a deep dive into the one big beautiful bill act. Um and uh because I learned that there are a number of tax implications that are gonna impact nonprofit organizations across the board in that bill. So there are a few things that happen in that bill that I think um uh are both positives and negatives, and some are just things to be be prepared for. What I think can go right is that in that bill, there is a provision that says that uh uh taxpayers can now take an additional uh$1,000 for an individual,$2,000 if you're married, filing jointly, on top of the standard deduction that you already take. 90% of households take a standard deduction. And so that means that the majority of people, particularly small-level donors, were not taking advantage of the tax benefits, they weren't getting the tax benefits of giving to a tax-deductible organization, right? And so now um there's an there's an added incentive to get in those people who can give you$500, who can give you$300, who can give you$1,000 to say, no, there's actually an additional tax benefit on top of your standard deduction. And for me, that presents an opportunity to build back what we've seen as a uh lost over the years, which is that sort of mid-tier donor. This gives a mid-tier donor an added incentive. They might love the arts, but before giving you$500 didn't make a difference in their taxes because they were taking a standard deduction. Um, and so this I think what can go right is if you can actually get people to understand that and maybe even try to quantify what that benefit would be to them in tax season, it gives us a real opportunity to rebuild that middle base of donors. And so uh one way I think organizations can do that is start a little mini campaign to all the people who have given you um somewhere between 50 and 1,000. Send them an email or uh or a uh, I mean, if you still are doing mailing campaigns, send them some collateral that says, hey, keep giving to us because now there's you have there's a real advantage. Then you might see an uptick in people who return and an uptick in people who maybe even increase their gift. And so making that explicit, reminding people that there is an additional benefit. Not only do you get the warm and fuzzies of giving to our organization, now you also get the added benefit of that tax deduction. And so um, that's just one part of what I've been reading about. But when you ask the question of what can go right, I think that's one right there.
SPEAKER_00:I think rebuilding that middle base is really key. Um, because I I do it feels like this year there was a lot of talk about this K-shape economy of like there's one that side that feels like it's going up and to the right, and then another side that feels like it's going down into the left, um, you know, or down into the right, you know, in the not good uh category. And I think, you know, finding ways to rebuild that customer and say, there's a place for you here to either make a gift, to have an affordable experience, you know, to recognize that more people are thinking about that single-ticket experience. So think about some of those shows that are coming up in 26 or what you're planning for, and saying, hey, where can we really make an event happen so that we can come back? I think my only fear is in 26 that could happen is that it there is still a catering to this like top 10 that are doing the spending, you know, that rather than rebuilding that middle, it is people doubling down on the top 10 and saying, Hey, if y'all can keep giving blockbuster gifts, we'll take them.
SPEAKER_01:But and I I agree with you, Al. Um, but what about the person who says, Yeah, but the economy says that the rich people are getting richer and the middle class is completely declining. And so why would we spend the effort in building that middle class? How do you respond to that? Like how or or to rebuilding that middle class of donors? How do you respond to that?
SPEAKER_00:I I think it's um I think it's either finding people who like maybe are not the top 10%, but like thinking about who are those 15 and 20 percent, you know, where where can you just go down a little bit further so that it's like, all right, again, I've got a group of people who are gonna give me like plus fifty thousand dollars. How do I engage more of those folks and convince them to let maybe 2,500 to 25,000 leave their pockets? And that's just gonna be a harder sell to me in this moment, potentially coming up in 26. Is I think you can focus on it, and can you actually get the dollars out of those people's pockets? But that's where it comes back to programming. Is it that they like the middle of the road programming such that they're like, you know what? I'd give you a little more because I like where you're going towards the center of your programming. Or do you find those few folks that are like, you know, I don't normally give a large gift, but I really like this show that you're about to produce, or I'm really into this one particular person that's gonna come here. I'm gonna donate there. So maybe there's a little bit of a yes and, but it might be all right, you can't, you know, the top 10% are gonna give to you, but how do you build something for that 15 to 20 percent that might be like, you know, I'd give you a good gift for either something that feels like really solid, steady quality programming, or is one event that I feel I can give to. The unfortunate thing there is that I think then people are like, Well, now I'm not gonna give to you. I gave you the one big thing and I'm done, you know, for the year, or for several years, even. I think that's the fear in rebuilding that middle base.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and the agree with you, Al. So the reason being is that um I think that there are way more people in the I can donate$150,$200 than there are in any other category of giving.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, I think, I think like like actual numbers, there are more people who can do that in any city across the United States. Totally. Um, that uh that group of donors is are also audiences, right? So I have always found that um I I have always felt like uh organizations, and this isn't just theaters, these are every kind of performing arts organization. I have always found that they need to look at the population of percentages, like their demographics, and try to match that. And I say that because that's when, you know, for instance, I'm in New Orleans, right? Our city is 67% black, um, and three percent Asian, Latino, everything else. Um so only our city is only 30% white. And even the white people here, they're like a spicy kind of white people. Right. So like I feel like like everything, then that's what you see in New Orleans, right? Is that at least our culture is very black everywhere. I feel like like people that organizations need to focus on what is that majority, just the numbers. Um, because and I know that we say that like, you know, usually it's it's older, older folks who give, um, older white folks who give, um, and older white folks who attend the opera, the bot, the ballet, the dance, the theater. But I do think that we need to have a shift because as we're seeing, the wealthy class is getting smaller and smaller, and the middle class is getting larger. And I think that we need to focus on on because if you get, you know, a thousand people who can donate two thousand two hundred dollars, you know, right there. I mean, that right there, I mean, that's a thousand audience members who are buying tickets consistently. And that's a thousand audience members who are, you know, giving what is that,$200,000 total. So I I do feel like there needs to be a shift in focus on the actual numbers of who is there and and and and not, you know, I think about PCS. I know I talk about PCS all the time, but I love them.
SPEAKER_00:Portland Center Stage.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, Portland Center Stage. I keep thinking about that donor. So we went on a site visit, Alan and myself, and they happened to have a donor event on the opening night of Primary Trust, which uh was their first show of this of this season. And it they they started a campaign of cultivating um donors who give$100,$200, and they tend to be younger in people of color. Um, and Portland is a very light city, just just saying that, just putting it out there. Um, and but this room was full. It was the most diverse donor event I have ever seen in my career. Yeah, um, it was young people, it was queer people, it was people of color, it was older people, it was white people, it was, I mean, literally ever every person that could exist in Portland, Oregon, every kind of person that could exist in Portland, Oregon was at this donor event. And and a part of that is because they actually put in the investment of cultivating middle class, smaller donors.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and um, and I I think that's where we need to move to as I think as a society, but definitely as an industry.
SPEAKER_01:Sure, sure. Where I think I've heard some folks struggle with that, and I don't think we have to have an answer for this today, um, but maybe something to come back to, is I think the challenge is that when you're thinking about a staff that is already stretched fairly thin, um, there's a cost-benefit analysis here that doesn't always work in the way that Tiffany was mentioning, because it takes me, even if it takes me the same amount of time to cultivate um uh those hundred dollar gifts, my like ROI, uh I can go to I can go to dinner with somebody who is high wealth and make fifty thousand dollars, right? And like and immediately get a gift of fifty thousand dollars to cultivate fifty thousand dollars in hundred dollar gifts is gonna take exponentially more time, right? That that's the truth of the matter. And so I think where I fear, where I find some development departments talking about it is like, but I I already am stretched very thin. I have to go after the highest ROI possibility, right? Which is how we get into only going for those highest level donors. Because otherwise, when you take into account the like salaries of the people who are trying to raise that money and all of the resources going into raise that money, the effort is much larger. And that on a short term is really painful, particularly if you have not developed a mechanism to transform some of those, a percentage of those hundred dollar gifts into larger gifts in the future, right? Like that's where I think um you can feel the squeeze if you know that there's a light at the end of the tunnel. But I think some I think there are people who are saying, like, I can't, I don't, I don't know how to transform somebody who doesn't have the capacity, right? That's why we're going after them. We're trying to rebuild this kind of donor base. Right. Um, like, how can I justify the effort from a especially when we're saying that like our budgets are already in very precarious spaces? So there's a reality check there of, and and I'd be curious to know sort of how PCS is thinking about that uh piece of it. Um, but that's the question that pops up for me is is does does the ROI on that right now, when we are in this moment of like real budget crisis, um, does the ROI on that make sense?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I I think it's where the the the point I would I would kind of at least at least put a pin on this part is I think you've got to decide what kind of coalition is can be built within your cities. You know, like we saw an article in the Times about how a lot of theaters are struggling, but some theaters are doing really well, you know, and the two they talked about were really Milwaukee rep, you know, who had just been done spending an$80 million campaign, you know, in the middle of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, you know, I would expect that campaign in Chicago. You know, I don't know if I would expect that campaign in Milwaukee, honestly. Um, and Gulf Shore basically being in like the rich part of Florida, you know, like like they are around a bunch of rich retirees who are like, we want some good old theater, and they are like, We're gonna give it to you, you know. And so to me, there's also this piece in 26 of think about the coalitions that it takes to really keep your theater going. And I think to to both of your points, the dilemma becomes I've gotta have the coalition of the hundred dollar donors and a coalition of the hundred thousand dollar donors. But how you keep that coalition together in your programming, in your values, in what you talk about as an organization, um, you know, can be really challenging. And I think like in Milwaukee rep kind of said, we're not gonna comment on anything out here. You know, we're gonna do some good work, we're gonna keep the eye on the ball, and we're gonna build this building. And that's helped them succeed. Other places like a New York theater workshop or or in another large metropolitan city, they might say, Hey, we're gonna take a different tack, but if that's the kind of coalition that we have, maybe that's what we have to do for the audience and donor coalitions that we have at the moment. You know, you speak to your moment and to your uh and to your area, and that might mean some tough decisions about I've got a program the for the person who's gonna love Fat Ham and also the person who wants to come see a new musical like Saturday church. Um, and that's just I think a reality of having that coalition stay together is a real bear for people across organizations. Um, I guess the last thing I I'd ask you both, you know, before we run out of time, is one other thing we talked about is that are there assumptions that maybe can we can undo or should be undone in 26? And I'm curious if y'all have any thoughts there around what assumptions maybe are still prevailing that 26 could dispel, you know, could say, like, listen, this doesn't apply anymore.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I I can start here. I think one of the things I would say is that how much technology is going to um sort of make its way into our art form. Uh, I think there's an assumption that that's still pretty a far ways away. And I and I my prediction for 2026, or maybe uh is that that assumption will really be tested. There are already organizations, primarily in the UK, actually, that are that are playing around with augmented reality where you're like sitting with some sort of glasses on. Um uh, I think it was the Royal Shakespeare. Uh company that that invested some money here. Um, there are some theaters in London that are experimenting with fully virtual um productions where you can sit in a theater in virtual space and watch a play. And so I think that one of the assumptions is that uh technology is far from the art. And tied to that technology, I think there's also this assumption that uh we've that AI is going to um that is the that we can wait on AI. And I think that there is a very uh specific way that I would recommend organizations move forward, which is that I would say uh where you deploy this should be strategic, and we are not trying to get rid of any jobs. So one area I think there's that's ripe for some of this work is in uh donor AI, right? So using artificial intelligence tools, and I'm not talking Chat GPT, I'm talking specific tools. I I found a tool earlier this week called Donor Search AI. Um, and um, they basically use artificial intelligence learnings that they've captured across many nonprofit industries to help you identify stronger term prospecting in your current list. And so that's where I think um might be useful for organizations to be thinking about it, as opposed to can AI replace my um assistant or can AI replace my technical director. That's not that's I don't think that's where we are. It's about how do I supercharge the work that my very talented staff can do uh with this new technology.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it sounds like that assumption of like AI is gonna decimate our staffs, and instead it's like, I I don't think we're gonna see like a wholesale loss of staffs all of a sudden. I think it is more of that, like, where are you gonna get some help or some assistance in some way?
SPEAKER_01:I feel yeah, yeah. I would say that that and like just to distill that assumption into one. I think the assumption is that AI is further or technology is further away from theater than we think. And that assumption I think might be sort of um shattered in 2026.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's heard. That's heard. Um, I think I'll throw mine back out there that maybe is a bit of the programming contradiction. But I I think that you know, people are gonna find that set, you know, being center in the middle of the road programming is gonna get old for people. Um, I think eventually people are gonna be like, great, but give me something new, you know. And I relate it to I just finished the new It series on HBO Max, which I thought was great, but also was kind of like, all right, I know this, I know this IP, I know Pennywise, like I know this story, like I get it, you know. But now it is a bit of well, give me something new, you know, what what is the next Stephen King like story that I'm gonna be terrified by? Not just saying, Well, now I'm gonna give you season two and season three of this prop of this property that you know. And I think some theaters have to think about for that that future planning that that y'all were talking about is, you know, where is some of that new stuff? Because your consumer's gonna eventually catch on, I think, and say, All right, I get it, but tell tell me something new.
SPEAKER_02:Um I think that um the assumption that major donors, funders, uh foundations, excuse me, are going to renew their giving to organizations. I think I think I think having the assumption of I'll I don't know, I'll just use Melon. Melon gave us$50,000 last year, they're gonna give us another$50,000 this year. Um, I think we have seen uh studies have shown that especially since like 2024, that um uh SMU Data Arts had a study that said that um uh nonprofit performing arts organizations have received less funding um um than previous years starting in 2024. Interesting enough, it said the middle was like just barely getting by, like mid-sized organizations were just barely getting by but had tight budgets, and that the large organizations saw the the steepest um decline in revenue.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, so I I think I think that this, yeah, the assumption of of when you're looking. I mean, I'm literally in the process of creating a budget, an operation operational budget for next year. So I'm like in the midst of this, of looking to see what grants we're gonna get next year. I think assuming that it's just gonna happen is not um what you have done previously. I think that I think that um funders are gonna be changing their programming and their, you know, what what they're what they're planning on giving to um to adjust to what is happening politically in our country. Um and I think we just and and that's why I think the focus on individual giving, why I mentioned that before, is so important of investing into like um the middle class is gonna be so important because I don't think um we're gonna be seeing as much grant money unless you're McKenzie Scott and you're on her list. But I don't think we're gonna be seeing as much in 2026.
SPEAKER_00:So the answer in 2026 is get on McKenzie Scott's list, y'all. Okay, somehow, some way, okay. Give that rich divorce a reason to give you money. All right, I'm gonna find one.
SPEAKER_02:Interesting fact, I found out that her mentor was Tony Morrison. Oh, really? Which makes total sense.
SPEAKER_00:Nice, nice, you know, give it away, let it all go. You know, I love that. Uh, y'all, thank you for this. You know, uh, it's been a great 2025 with y'all. You know, maybe some of these things will come true in 2026, maybe they won't, you know. But listen, it's fun to look into the crystal ball. Um, and I thought a really good, you know, conversation around some really specific pieces of where the consumer is, where programming is. I do think, you know, when when we get around February or March and we see season announcement season, it'll be very telling to see what theaters and arts organizations are thinking for the future. Um, y'all, you know, we want to thank our listeners too for listening throughout this year. You know, we took the second half of the year to really try to do these weekly, um, which was a bear in a lot of ways, you know, but we got some more downloads this year, you know, I think over about 30 episodes that we've done this year. Um, so it's it's just been a good and wonderful ride. Um, but now it's also time for us to take a little bit of a break, you know, a little bit of a hibernation um as we head into the winter. Uh so you know, we're gonna take the rest of 2025, we're gonna start 2026 also, you know, taking some time off, kind of get ready and set for the year, uh, and come back with some new episodes in early February. But we do want to hear from you either in the comment section or email us at emc at emcforward.com. Um, but as you wrap up these last couple of days, you know, of work, you know, we hope you have a great holiday. We hope you have a great end of year. You know, let 2025 go and say hello to 2026. And at least if there's one thing I do know that will happen in 2026, is being able to talk it all through with the intro and the intro tip celebration.
SPEAKER_02:Happy holidays.
SPEAKER_00:Happy holidays, happy new year.