Desire As Medicine Podcast
Brenda & Catherine interview people and talk to each other about desire. They always come back to us being 100% responsible for our desires.
Contact us by email:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
goddessbrenda24@gmail.com
Instagram:
@desireasmedicine
@CoachCatherineN
@Brenda_Fredericks
Desire As Medicine Podcast
87 ~ Why Friendships Are Complicated (and Worth It)
This episode explores the beautiful complexity of women’s friendships, challenging the myth that deep connection happens effortlessly.
Catherine & Brenda share personal stories about how our own relationship grew through intentional investment - what we call “coins in the fountain.” True sisterhood takes time, vulnerability, and the courage to navigate discomfort. Many of us were never taught how to build lasting, soul-nourishing friendships.
We dive into common patterns, like collusion, jealousy, and conditional support, and how unlearning them opens space for authentic connection. We also acknowledge the often-overlooked grief that comes when friendships shift or end, and how deeply those losses can impact us.
What does real sisterhood look like? It’s imperfect, messy, and profoundly rewarding. It’s showing up fully, celebrating each other’s growth, and choosing courage and care over comparison.
Sisterhood is not about luck—it’s an intentiional practice of intention and trust.
Episode Highlights:
• Challenging the myth that friendships are effortless
• Investing time, energy, and vulnerability
• Transforming situational friendships into soul connections
• Releasing unhealthy patterns like collusion and competition
• Honoring the grief of evolving or ending friendships
• Allowing imperfection and repair
• Building relationships that truly see, support, and celebrate
• Finding your people through courageous, intentional choices
How did you like this episode? Tell us everything, we'd love to hear from you.
If you'd like to learn more about 1:1 or group coaching with Brenda or Catherine message them and book a Sales Call to learn more.
Email:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
goddessbrenda24@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
Instagram:
@desireasmedicinepodcast
@Brenda_Fredericks
@CoachCatherineN
Welcome to Desire is Medicine. We are two very different women living a life led by desire, inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2:I'm Brenda. I'm a devoted practitioner to being my fully expressed true self in my daily life. Motherhood relationships and my business Desire has taken me on quite a ride and every day I practice listening to and following the voice within. I'm a middle school teacher turned coach and guide of the feminine.
Speaker 1:And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the truest and hopefully the highest version of me. I don't have children, I've never been married. I've spent equal parts of my life in corporate as in some down and low shady spaces. I was the epitome of tired and wired and my path led me to explore desire. I'm a coach, guide, energy worker and a forever student.
Speaker 2:Even after decades of inner work, we are humble beginners on the mat, still exploring, always curious. We believe that listening to and following the nudge of desire is a deep spiritual practice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1:On the Desire as Medicine podcast. We talk to each other, we interview people we know and love about the practice of desire, bringing in a very important piece that is often overlooked being responsible for our desire.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to Desire as Medicine podcast. This is Brenda, and I am joined by my amazing, incredible, beautiful co host, catherine Navarro, who is sitting over there smiling back at me, shining her light, as always. So grateful to Catherine. We've been diving into one of my favorite topics the last few episodes, which is sisterhood Sisterhood, creating the friendships that we truly want in our lives the friendships that we truly want in our lives, and today we have a really great topic for you. Before I share what that is, I want to share a text that a friend sent to me about the podcast. It's so beautiful and I'm sharing it in the context of sisterhood. This is a dear friend of mine, so she says I brag.
Speaker 2:I have this wise friend, brenda, who has this juicy podcast desire as medicine. I'm grateful. It was just what I needed to bathe deeply in during my period, like a salve healing me on the inside. I desire to reflect back the magnitude of ripples these podcasts have as tools of self love, wisdom that I will pass down and pay forward to many others for years to come, making more ripples of homemade self-love. Soothing juicy bombs Sounds like a poem. Self-love, soothing juicy bombs Sounds like a poem. Thank you, goddess for the richest of ointments, and then the most beautiful emojis after it, of water and stars and planets and moons, and it's so beautiful and my response was oh, this is the best message ever. Thank you so much receiving your gorgeous reflections, and I wanted to share that because it's so incredible to have friends who can hold themselves so beautifully and have the willingness to share their heart, to share the truth of their heart. That's a very vulnerable message that she sent to me and I really really appreciate it, and Catherine and I love, love, love, love, love receiving your reflections. So if you're somebody who texts us or leaves a review on Spotify or Apple, just know that it means the world to us and we share them with each other, and if you send us a screenshot, we'll send you a meditation. This is a meditation by Catherine, and the other thing I want to say about this message that I received from this dear friend thank you so much if you're listening is the format that she wrote it to me actually used a tool that we've talked about on this podcast. So it's a brag gratitude, desire. Yeah, brag gratitude and desire, and that is. If you want to know more about it. It's episode 49 called the Desire Quad, and then you can use that tool too. All right, people, let's get into it.
Speaker 2:Today's episode, we are diving deep into a topic that touches every woman's heart. It touches my heart sisterhood. We've all heard the phrases you'll find your people, but what does that actually mean and why can it sometimes feel so hard or impossible? Last episode and this episode is inspired by the book you Will Find your People by Lane Moore, and we're exploring the realities of friendships, women friendships and, let's face it, there's everything inside of female friendships beauty, heartbreak, healing, possibility.
Speaker 2:And today we're going to unpack some myths. We're going to unpack the myth that deep connection happens effortlessly because it does not. A little spoiler alert we're going to talk about the challenge of unlearning toxic friendship patterns and the grief of outgrowing relationships that no longer serve us Because, let's face it, friendships do end. And, most importantly, we're going to talk about what true sisterhood looks like to us, to Catherine and I. Maybe you have something different and we would love to hear it, but we've been talking about the kind of sisterhood where you're seen, supported and celebrated. So, whether you're looking for deeper friendships or maybe you're navigating the messy middle of change, wherever you are in your friendship journey.
Speaker 2:This episode is for you, so let's get into it is for you, so let's get into it. So the first thing we want to talk about is this myth of instant connection. So this book challenges the idea that deep friendships just happen effortlessly, and I want to say that it is possible, they can. You can just connect with someone and it could seem like you've known them forever and it could be really easy. I mean, let's just call in life being easy.
Speaker 2:But when I feel into my closest friendships, the ones of deep soul, sisterhood, which is what I love in this life, they've taken effort and they've taken time and they've taken vulnerability and they've taken a risk. You get out what you put in. And so and friendships are an investment you know you're. Every time you talk to a friend on the phone, or you go for a walk, or you meet for dinner, or you get on Zoom, or you listen to her crying, or you cry, whatever it is that you're doing with your friend, helping her shop, that's a really good one. You're throwing coins in the fountain. It's an investment every single time, in all relationships, everything that you do. And it does take time to build our relationships. What would you add to that, catherine?
Speaker 1:The coins in the fountain. It has me automatically think about me and some of my friendships. I'm a Capricorn and well, I mean, Brenda's not that far off. She's a Virgo and we tend to be earthier, more to the ground, more intentional signs if we want to talk about astrology, and I have a friend who has me as part of her like I'm just going to use 2025 as an example but having conversations with Catherine and like staying in touch with Catherine is one of her purposes, like intentions this year, Because her time is limited, she's a mom, she has a husband, and so she's constantly like these are the relationships that matter to me.
Speaker 1:For me, I am for her part of her family. She sees me like family. For me, I am for her part of her family. She sees me like family. That's one of the I guess what's the word I'm looking for. It's one of the examples, that's the word. It's one of the examples that Lane Moore gives that you have like a chosen family. So my friend has me as part of her chosen family and so it's really intentional Like we're going to talk, like hey, when are you available next to talk? So, if it is long distance, the friendship. So if we talk, we're already scheduling like the next time that we're going to talk. We don't talk every day, so it's very, as Brenda said, like coins in the fountain. I know that I'm putting time and effort into this friendship because I really value it and I want to make sure that we have a continued friendship, but that friendship continues to grow.
Speaker 2:I love that. That's really beautiful, it is intentional and it's worth it. If we want to have something really deep and meaningful, you do need to invest in it. Growth journey is.
Speaker 2:My friends in the past all kind of looked a certain way and I don't mean physically, but they were like situational friendships that maybe grew into something deeper and I had a lot of deep friendships as well.
Speaker 2:But they were people I worked with moms of my kids' friends. When I started expanding my horizons and being in different kind of rooms and meeting different kinds of women, I would say my mind was kind of blown at who I was able to connect with and some of my really close friends now probably even you and I. I don't think that if we just met in the street, you know, 10 or 20 years ago, that it would have developed into a friendship. I think probably I had ideas of what it would look like or there was something that brought us together where this is much more of a soul relationship, where the thing that's bringing us together is our desire for the deep relationship, our desire for basically a desire led life, being our true selves and being on this journey. But I look at some of my friends and I'm like, oh wow, I don't know that I would have been friends with her in the past and that really blows my mind in the best of ways.
Speaker 1:It's interesting that you're saying this right now because I would say that with both friendships this one friend that I'm talking about coins in the fountain it was somewhat situational. We met in a program. We also bonded over being good students, like we'd share notes and talk about. So there was a situation in that realm.
Speaker 1:She often says there's no way we would be friends similar to what you're pointing to Brenda, and it's true. We come from different educational backgrounds, different socioeconomic backgrounds, different races, different countries. Like under what circumstances, right, would that friendship? Would we even be in each other's rooms? And even you and I? There is a certain situation, right, like we have a project that we love and that we pour our love and attention into. That also has us pour into each other. And so, as you talk about it and smooth it out a little more, I'm like actually, yes, there is a certain situational component, even though I love you and adore you. But it's true, I mean we have certain connection points throughout the week that would not exist if we weren't working on this piece together.
Speaker 2:Damn girl, that's a good truth.
Speaker 1:That was really true. The other thing I want to add is it's part of why I asked you. It's not like I got other choices, other people to ask you. You were my choice. It's interesting. I'm thinking about people who get married, or people, or when I was, I think, in kindergarten or first grade, when I asked the first friend like, would you be my best friend? And it was like a whole thing. She had other choices for best friends. So we're cute. But now, as I think about it, I'm I'm like oh, there's a lot of intention. I wonder if I've given it that much thought as to how much intention there is behind the scenes. To my circle, yes, how would, how and when and where would we actually connect and under what circumstances. And it does feel like, wow, this is wild under, like, how, how are we even friends? And it was still chosen.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, exactly, and I think you bring up a really good point. There is a situation that we have that brings us together and we are really intentional. That brings us together and we are really intentional. I think that we would be talking anyway, but probably not.
Speaker 1:I would say definitely not as much as we do, but when you're in a situation with somebody, it brings you together and you can create that deeper relationship which I feel that we do have Definitely and it serves us right In so many different places I mean, I would say the places where the gift is just beautiful and blooms is the fact that I feel really met and seen by you, that you're an amazing friend and sister? Yes, and having that level of connection and doing this project together is so beautiful. But there's no way I would have known that prior to, of course not, there was desire we could have crashed and burned. I don't know. You don't know until you're in it.
Speaker 2:Well, this is exactly what our podcast is about. I love coming back to this. Desire is medicine. It's how our desires grow us into the bigger, next version of ourselves, and it's not always about the destination. Even though we wanted to talk about desire, you wanted to, you asked me to, we did that on clubhouse and then we started this podcast together. Yes, we have a podcast, but also there's so many other gifts along the way. I mean, that's a whole other episode is what are the gifts?
Speaker 1:I would even say, yes, we are an example that it wasn't an instant connection. Right, we really worked on our connection for a long time before we started to record. We were meeting once a week for over a year. That takes a lot of intention and dedication. Yes, it was for the purpose of the project, but a project like this would require us to have a specific connection in order for it to be juicy and we were willing to put in the work to have the output that we were looking for.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Not circumstantial.
Speaker 2:No, it's not and, to be honest, I've talked to a couple of people who were delving into podcasting with a partner and it hasn't gone well. It hasn't gone well because it was really the project and the podcast is was in the forefront, where we really put our connection and the sisterhood in the forefront, where we really put our connection and the sisterhood in the forefront or at least in an equal pillar next to each other, 100%. But it's not just about the podcast and we show up. No, I think this podcast is juicy and we've been able to come this far because of our connection, because we invest in it regularly is why it's so juicy and I think that, going back to you know this myth of instant connection I think that we worked at it, we really did.
Speaker 2:And there is a myth that you're just going to like fit perfectly with your friends, you're just going to find your people and be like, oh my God, and it's possible, but it's not necessarily the way it always goes.
Speaker 1:Right now I'm thinking about so for those of you that don't know, or I think we've talked about it once or twice, definitely when Olivia interviewed us. But I had a vision for the beginning of the podcast and you had a vision. Brenda is really outgoing and we've had a different sisterhood podcast conversation where she talks about all the connections that she has, and so Brenda's like, yes, we're going to have this podcast and we're going to interview everyone, and she was so ready. She was like ready to interview from day one, and I'm like, no, no, no, I had my vision. I'm like, no, we need to drop the first eight so that people know exactly what we're talking about, so that we're talking about the same lingo and we can all be on the same page. I had this vision of dropping the course that we dropped right and in doing so, I didn't know, oh, that she and I were going to get into a rhythm and a groove and we've had such gorgeous reflections from people that we have interviewed, that have been on the show, to that say that it feels so good Like we hold such different poles and it feels so good to be interviewed by us. But I think that is a result of how she and I, you and I I'm saying she as if I'm, as if the audience is here with us. I guess you're listening, but I'm, I'm feeling like everybody's in the room with us right now.
Speaker 1:On the Riverside Zoom, you and I really meshed before, like we found our groove before we added others and it really added a layer that was unforeseen and it adds to like there is no instant connection. There's, like this place where you do have to work. I remember I don't know who says this or where I heard this quote but like couples don't really know what they're made of until they fight. Because everybody, like you, can have this idea oh my God, we're so connected, everything is going so good. This idea, oh my God, we're so connected, everything is going so good Because the honeymoon phase I mean who doesn't do well during the honeymoon phase right Of a friendship or a relationship? That's why it's literally called the honeymoon phase but not until you have your first fight or your first disagreement, or you want something to go one way and the other person wants something to go to the other way. You don't really know what the relationship is made out of until you start to go through those pockets and moments.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's a great example of our visions and how they were different and you were right and it's not about being right, but it's not about that but you had a vision that was different and I'm laughing because you were going to win that one. I just felt it. You were very strongly opinioned on that and you were like you know you, you, you shared that and I could feel the correctness of it and the truth of that of why I didn't want to do that. It's very vulnerable. It was very vulnerable for us to do eight episodes on our own before we had guests on. I didn't really quite know that at the time, but and I've shared this on other episodes where we had guests on I didn't really quite know that at the time, but and I've shared this on other episodes where we've talked about it but I think this is a great story and I trusted you, I trusted your vision.
Speaker 2:You're really good at seeing the big picture and here we are bearing the fruits of that. And I'm going to put a plug in for those first eight episodes, because they are the cat's meow. They are. Episodes one through eight are a mini course on desire. Okay, so should we move into our second subtopic?
Speaker 1:here. I know we talked about going linear, but really we're talking about you and I right now about finding and cultivating your people. Great Like. The book acknowledges how hard it can be to find your people, especially in adulthood, and how we may want to explore like what are the best ways to build sisterhood as an adult, or how do we shift from situational friendships to deeper, lasting connections. I think Brenda and I are a great example of finding and cultivating your people, like, yes, we met and we were in a program together and we were sort of in the same community together, and I had met her daughter first and then met her. Then I had the desire for the podcast. I turned to her. I think we had hung out a few times. I remember oh my goodness, I still laugh at this there was a time that I wanted to spend time with Brenda and I'm like Brenda, I really want us to hang out, as Brenda so has shared.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure if it was in this podcast episode or a different one, where you have friends reaching out to you being like, hey, let's do this thing. It was the other fellow teacher that was asking you to hang out on Tuesdays. So I would turn to Brenda. I'm like, hey, I want us to hang out, like go to lunch, maybe we're going to Bryant Park, this, that. And so she says, well, I'm going to this event. And I literally went to an event. I've met other people, I met amazing friends at that event as well. But everybody at the event that was like why are you here? Or are you here for this particular speaker? I'm like, no, I came here because I wanted to hang out with Brenda. And they're like you did the whole weekend course because you wanted to hang out with Brenda. I'm like, yeah, I did that.
Speaker 1:I started to, I guess, feel like she's my person and how do I cultivate this? And so it was like how do I spend time with her? She's a mom, she has two kids, like she's busy, has a partner, and so sometimes we have to find the nooks and crannies, right, like it's not, as some people might say, like oh, are you picking up crumbs or something insane like that. But for me it was worth it. And so I would ask others, right, like, where can you potentially find people? And for us it was like we had friendship. And then we have now this great situation where we're working on a project that we love together and that really I think that combination is beautiful. I'm living proof and experiencing that. But what comes up for you under finding and cultivating your people?
Speaker 2:First of all, I love that story and I did know that and that was such a great weekend and my daughter was there too, and a couple of other friends. We had a great weekend. That was so much fun. Also, you brought me some clothes that weekend and there was that one dress that was just so beautiful. What comes up for me around finding and cultivating my people? I think you nailed it when you said I'm going to this weekend to hang out with her. If you want to find and cultivate your people, you need to invest in it. That is some resource your time, your energy, your money, sometimes all three. But if you want to have the deep soul friendships, you need to invest and you need to be available for this friendship. Are you available for it? Can you really show up for it?
Speaker 1:So good, I'm thinking about something else now 12 step. I love 12 step. I know you're part of 12 step. We always talk about 12 step. I talk to my clients about 12 step because not only is 12 step amazing, an amazing tool, it's a free resource. You get to go be in rooms and talk to other people that are also interested in personal growth, but they also have fellowship. And that would be an investment of time not necessarily, well, I guess money. If you're going to buy coffee or bagel or whatever you guys are doing together, it's some financial. But for the most part, you're investing your time.
Speaker 1:You go to a 12-step meeting Al-Anon, aca, whatever kind of meeting and then there will be often fellowship. That goes, a bunch of people that go out for coffee or just, you know, tea or water or whatever, go to the park, go somewhere and just spend time together, right. And there's another thing that has come up in the book about unlearning toxic friendships, friendship patterns. Right, she says many of us grew up witnessing or experiencing unhealthy friendship dynamics like competition, jealousy or conditional support, and the book explores how past wounds can make us hesitant to trust or fully show up in sisterhood.
Speaker 1:And so I think a 12-step room. Granted, nobody's perfect. I'm not saying that you're going to go to a 12-step room and everybody in the room is going to be perfect, but you're going to be speaking potentially about, and having conversations around, topics that you want to learn about yourself and others in those rooms, because everybody's there sort of looking for a higher version of themselves. How do they address the patterns that are showing up for them? How do they build supportive friendships? This is all occurring in these rooms. I'm like what a great place to potentially find your people, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Whatever, whatever kind of room that you want to get yourself into, and I think you really nailed it again when you said people are going in to become the highest version of themselves and I think that if you want to unlearn toxic friendship patterns or relationship patterns, it starts with you. When I started putting myself into rooms where I was just learning about this and being able to observe my own behavior and 12 step helped with this so so much I was able to see how reactive I was and how much I was really not listening. I wasn't really able to hold space for people. I was always just maybe talking about myself or making it about me. You know, that is a toxic pattern where you're not really listening and you're kind of playing volleyball, like kids really like parallel play, like nobody's really listening to each other, and I really saw how I was doing that and I was participating in that and that was how my friendships were.
Speaker 2:And when I started shifting that inside of myself, my relationship started changing and that is, that was everything you know, or how conditional it was. Or colluding oh my God, I think that's one of the biggest toxic friendship patterns that I experienced was colluding, and I talked about this on the last episode. But I had this lifelong friend and we would get on the phone and we would just complain about our husbands and or how hard it was, how hard it is to be a mother, and you know it's fine. We, we needed to go through that process, but it's only going to get you so far. It's kind of like being on a hamster wheel and when I started being ready for more, more did show up for in my life and I can't imagine doing that now, like I have tools where I'll unload or share, but not dump and collude and just look for somebody to constantly validate my own dysfunction and pain.
Speaker 1:I hear you, collusion wasn't my big one. My big toxic friendship trait was probably that I just needed airtime. I just needed sort of to like hear myself, hear my thoughts, which makes sense, right. I lived a long time not sharing certain things. Then I got of a certain age where I get to share, and now any chance that I get to share it, it's any chance that I get to share I'm thinking of when you have the talking stick and those indigenous circles.
Speaker 1:Anytime I got the talking stick, I was like right and speaking so quickly and not really pausing, there was definitely a sensation of dumping for me in the beginning. It took time for me to learn. It was definitely hindsight learning and tons of pain in the process where I would ask myself did I really need to share that? Was that really necessary? Did that really add to the conversation? Was that extra? And when I say extra, I mean it really didn't add to the connection between myself and the other person speaking. It didn't. I wasn't necessarily adding vulnerability or sight, it was sort of just sight. It was sort of just adding. I wasn't a big journaler and so it took some time for me to calibrate and get to a place of, oh, this is great to share, this has the ability to provide a better connection between me and other, or oh, that whole piece I shared did nothing. That was basically like empty calories or just speaking into the void, and I don't want anybody listening to think that there's no learning curve, because there is.
Speaker 1:What I do want you to know is that learning comes from being in it. Learning comes from practice, and that's literally what we're hoping for that everybody continues to practice creating their community. That's going to back themselves or back each other as you go for what you want. You go live a life led by desire, and there will be some hiccups, right? Maybe you have to clean something up. I'm really sorry that I spoke over you. I'm really sorry that I keep interrupting you. I'm really sorry that I have to be right. I'm really sorry that I dumped on you. I'm really sorry that I gave you advice, and I didn't mean to give you advice. I was thinking in my mind, but that doesn't matter. You didn't ask me for advice. I didn't ask for consent or whatever sort of cleanup. What cleanups come to mind for you? Well, all of those.
Speaker 2:What was actually coming up for me was how, like the truth of being seen and understood in our friendships is, when we allow for what you're talking about, like allowing for mess ups and cleanups where we are imperfect, we do struggle, we're giving space for each other's growth. That's true relationship. We're not going to always get it right. We're not going to always send the perfect text. We're going to get our feelings hurt and then how do we be with that? And sometimes it is cleanup.
Speaker 2:It's really beautiful to be with each other in your imperfections and I've had many hiccups with friends in the last few years, even in my deep soul friendships where somebody's feelings gets hurt or some hiccup happens and you just kind of like work it through and it's like awkward and bumpy and you're maybe revealing parts of yourself that you wish that you weren't. You wish that you were doing something a little bit neater or cleaner or more advanced. But at the end of the day, we're just humans, or bringing in 12 step, we're just bozos on the bus on the bus being people. And can you allow that for yourself? Can you just have yourself be seen in your messy and also see someone in their messy and not judge them, you know, and just open your heart and have compassion for their humanity. And it really just starts with yourself and you accept your own humanity and have compassion for your own mess. That's really where it starts.
Speaker 1:You're bringing in some truth bombs. I know we're talking about. You know one of the things of the book of the power of being seen and understood right, how we friendships thrive on emotional safety and mutual understanding and how true sisterhood allows us for that, imperfection, struggle and growth. But what you're bringing in is a different mirror bomb here. I just want to point out that I caught that little slick sly you threw in there, brenda, which is usually I used to have a 12-step mentor that used to say whenever I got annoyed with somebody in the room, whatever they were presenting with, that really got under my skin like psoriasis was, because that was probably something, a trait that I have and own, that I could not accept in myself. And so sometimes there's that Sometimes self, and so sometimes there's that.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I think there's often that. I think that's a great relationship hack is when somebody is annoying you or you're judging someone. Just ask yourself do you have that inside of yourself?
Speaker 1:I mostly come up with the answer yes, sometimes I come up with the answer. I don't allow that in myself, so usually somebody is exhibiting something that I, for whatever conditioning, consider unacceptable.
Speaker 2:Exactly, you don't allow it in yourself. Exactly so, for instance, since we're talking about women, if a woman is taking up a lot of space, if she's just unapologetically going after her desires, we've cut women down. For that, we've taken each other down. For that, we found each other wrong. We've talked about her behind her back. Who does she think she is? And that's really mirroring our own inability to be that bold. And what we're talking about is this new paradigm of sisterhood, where we look at that inside of ourselves and actually back her. That's really what we're getting at here, because this cutting each other down business it's so limited and it's exhausting. It's not taking us into the next world, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:It's definitely not taking us to the higher version of ourselves, for sure. Right, we have judgments about ourselves and others, and so definitely we have our tribe, like what we consider acceptable behavior or acceptable poise, or you know. I think I can't remember who the Hindu teacher is, but somebody was asking him how come you guys eat with your fingers and not with like a fork and knife? And he said because our fingers aren't dirty like Americans. That was so funny to me because an American would probably say why would you do that? Why are you eating your food with your hands? So an American would probably say why would you do that? Why are you eating your food with your hands? Oh, it's so much more civilized to use a fork and knife, or you're supposed to use the right fork with the right this, or you're doing it this way or not that way, or a woman somewhere, because the conditioning is so unconscious, so internalized, and it's hard to face.
Speaker 2:It's really hard to face. It's really hard to face and I'm really glad that we're talking about this. And the last piece that I want to bring in one of the big takeaways from this book is grief, the grief of outgrowing friendships. It's so heartbreaking. Or when friendships end for whatever reason, it's so painful. I think we don't even give enough space or credit to the pain of our female friendships when they fall apart for whatever reason. I think that we give a lot of space for when our romantic relationships fall apart, but our friendships, I don't know. Do you have friendships that have fallen apart, that you're not friends with the person anymore and you've had so much sadness or anger or grief so many, yeah, so many.
Speaker 1:I know, right, I have had many, many. I um, I've had some friendships that have ended from my goodness. I'm going to talk about one where I was the villain. I was a teenager and I started to hang out with the cool kids and one of my best friends was really good at like. We lived, I think, in the same building. I think she ended up having journalism as her background or that was her avenue, so she was pretty nerdy and I was an A student.
Speaker 1:But I don't think I just the way I saw my life and world at that time really meant that I wanted to be a cool kid, and being a cool kid meant not being friends with her anymore, right, because she wasn't one of the cool kids and so there was grief there because I was letting that friendship go. It wasn't dramatic or there was no like. I'm thinking of those Lifetime movies where a friend confronts you and is like I can't believe you didn't talk to me. There was none of that. It just happened and ended and that was it. And I proceeded to go down my cool kid path and have very negative experiences and she continued to not, and she went down her nerdy kid path and had accolades and did really well in life and I clearly made the bad choice, but it was the choice I made right.
Speaker 1:So I'm sure maybe she has grief about it, maybe it's something she never thought about again. But I'm using this example because there are so many and so many different reasons why and just like it's not a lifetime movie, I can't imagine myself reaching out to this person and being like hey, I'm really sorry that I stopped talking to you back then, because it would just be weird. It's been over 40 years. Like, who's doing that? Nobody's doing that. This person, I'm sure doesn't care. I'm sure it was important at the time but doesn't matter now. It's more of talking about it because it is a fact of life, like we grow apart. It's really true.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think your window of opportunity has definitely closed on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've had a couple of friendships myself that have ended, and the friend that I was talking about earlier, where we would call each other and just collude about how hard life was and just validate each other's stories all the time. We were friends from like sixth or seventh grade all through into my thirties. It was a very long friendship, like we had our kids together, and I really think that she brought me to my spiritual path. She did a program that I watched her go through and then I went through it and and as soon as I signed up for that program and did it, we were never friends again. Like the friendship ended.
Speaker 2:She kind of cut me out, kind of like you're a story, except I was your friend. She just cut me out Kind of like you're a story, except I was your friend. She just cut me out and I think we were growing in different directions and it was painful. It was painful that she cut me out because I didn't really get a reason and I tried to reach out to her and apologize and she didn't want any part of it and that was it. It was done. We were friends for over 20 years and then it was just done and there's grief in my heart about that and I also feel the rightness of it. We were just friends for that point and I think it's actually quite beautiful that she led me to my spiritual path in a way.
Speaker 1:I just thought it sounds beautiful, like painful and so beautiful. Yeah, it has me think of romantic relationships where they end and they're not ending because you don't love each other anymore. Maybe you just want different things from life or you want to go in different paths. Maybe you want to get married, he doesn't want to get married. Or he wants to get married, you don't want to get married. Or he wants to have kids, you don't want kids. You want to get married, he doesn't want to get married. Or he wants to get married, you don't want to get married. Or he wants to have kids. You don't want kids. You want kids, he doesn't. You want to live in a warm place, he wants to snowboard. I don't know, but things happen in romantic relationship and they can also happen in friendships.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and what I'm thinking as you're speaking is how usually I mean I know that people ghost each other all the time in romantic relationships. It's more of a more current thing than how it used to be, but we generally end our romantic relationships early, intentionally. We're like I'm done with you or some version of that, whatever it is. But with our friendships, female friendships I don't know that we really do that, that we sit down and really say you know, it's not you, it's me, and I don't want to be friends with you anymore.
Speaker 1:I don't think that people do, that you have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you want to say more? What was that like?
Speaker 1:So one of my friends and I had a falling out and I needed to forgive her, and it was at a time in my life where forgiveness wasn't really a thing for me. I am more of an avoidant. I tend if anybody's read the attachment books, I would definitely say I am more avoidant than attached or anxious attached or even though they say anxiousness is underneath it. And so I was so angry and I just couldn't trust her the same. And so there was a day that we were talking and she was like we don't, and she's sort of like letting me know all the places where we're not who we were, and I just had to own that I could no longer be that friend for her. And so that's what I said. I said I don't think I'm as good a friend as you are. It's not something that's within my realm or range to do. I can't be that person.
Speaker 1:And I had to own it and be honest about it. No judgment, no, like you did, da, da, da. And I I was like, oh wow, I really see that I can't get past this one for whatever reason. And we did sort of make up and kind of try here and there, and the interesting thing is, I love her to death. I do miss her and I recognize that. I just have a different life now and friendships look different to me now than they did then. And if I'm going to be intentional about my friendships, then I need to be honest with myself about that, about how far or who I'm willing to be in relationship with, in deep relationship with.
Speaker 2:That's a really beautiful story. I really love that. You don't usually hear somebody saying you're a better friend than me. I can't be that kind of friend. Usually it's the opposite. You know exalting yourself about how great you are and the other person isn't quite showing up. So I think that was really beautiful and honest of you and I appreciate you sharing it. Thank you.
Speaker 2:I want to highlight how painful it is when friendships might end. It can be really painful when friendships might end. It can be really painful, and not only when they end but when there's conflict. I know that sometimes when I've had conflict with friends or a misunderstanding, whatever it is, it just messes me up honestly, like I need to clear that with the person. It just messes me up. It like throws me off balance, like something's not in alignment, like am I okay over here? Yes, and I could feel that something's just not quite right. And so the power of coming in and cleaning it up, like we've talked about, or sharing vulnerably, is a really beautiful part of friendship. That I don't know that I used to have that skill at all but the more authentic we are in our friendships and the more we are showing up as our true selves. That's imperfect, so there's more hiccups that are likely to occur, which means more cleanup.
Speaker 1:Definitely more cleanup. I think there's a lot of power in being honest when you have a shortcoming. So I used to be accused of this often, especially in my twenties. You talk like a man. I used to get that a lot. You talk like a man. I used to get that a lot, and it's because of the way I listen so intently and I would just be listening to the other person.
Speaker 1:Women tend to interrupt each other or say, oh yeah, like these are things that I've learned to do. They weren't innate to me. Innate to me would be you talk, talk, talk, talk, talk and I have nothing to say the whole time and I'm just listening and connecting dots until the end. And then I have like something to say and usually I'm just listening. And it was such a thing to work on for me because it was not well-received at all. Women would feel uncomfortable or like they were being judged or I don't know. It just did not bode well. So it took some time for me to learn how to communicate differently in that way.
Speaker 1:And I'm just giggling because there has to be room for these imperfections, these quirks that we have, because we're not robots, we're human beings. We're not like AI machines right, like if you ask chat, gpt, what should I say? You can get a prompt and you can text someone back or email them back. But these conversations are happening in real life and so there's a hiccup or there's a. Catherine, are you listening? I'm like I'm here, I'm just listening. They're like, well, say something.
Speaker 1:It sounds like you're not there. I'm like I'm here, I'm listening, and so it's taken me some time to be like okay, okay, uh-huh, to do those, to have those cues that it just takes time for us to learn. Where are we falling short? Where can we not show up and allowing ourselves the grace of I'm not perfect and oh, wow, I may have fucked this relationship, like I may have been the one that you know did not show up for this friendship, and can I exit gracefully or is there something to be cleaned up? There is no right, always answer, and there will be grief of outgr someone.
Speaker 2:It's just the way it is. I think if we're growing and learning and expanding in life and taking risks and trying new things, we're always becoming different versions of ourselves. We're going to have friends that match that version and that's correct no-transcript and have a lot of love and reverence for them for the time period in our life that we had them, that they served us, and just let it go. Let it go in great love. We don't need to make it wrong. We don't need to find the person wrong. We don't need to find ourselves wrong, wrong. We don't need to find the person wrong. We don't need to find ourselves wrong. We can just accept it and say, oh, that ended and maybe there's something there to learn I think that's not so easy.
Speaker 1:It's easier said than done to admit that. I think it's a stronger, it's a more honest pose, especially if you've been the one. It's really easy to be the person throwing stones. It's different when you live in that glass house, right? And so if there's anything that I want listeners to take away is please be gentle with yourself here, because there is grief. You will grieve. The relationship, you just will. Anything that was worth your time is going to be painful, and if it's not painful, then what the hell?
Speaker 2:were you doing? Those are some really beautiful truth bombs. I want to leave our listeners with some thoughts. Finding your people isn't about luck, it's about intention. It's about courage, taking a risk. It's about trusting yourself with your own desire for the relationships that you want.
Speaker 2:And true sisterhood takes time, and when we commit to showing up authentically and we're willing to unlearn our old patterns and embrace the ebbs and flows of life and friendships, we do create space for the deep, nourishing connections that we long for. So maybe you're in a season of building new friendships, maybe you're grieving ones that you've lost, or maybe you're just realizing that true sisterhood really starts with how you show up for yourself. Wherever you are in the friendship journey and I believe that we all are on it you are not alone in this. So if today's episode resonated with you, catherine, and I would love, love, love to hear your thoughts. We would love for you to share your reflections. Send a message to us on Instagram, desire is Medicine podcast, leave us a review on Apple, or pass the episode along to a friend who you might want to share this with. So until next time, take care and please keep choosing the connections that nourish you, that nourish you. Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine podcast.
Speaker 1:Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply intimate with ourselves and others. You can find our handles in the show notes. We'd love to hear from you.
