From Cage Fights To Construction Sites

A real estate career can look unstoppable right up until it doesn’t, and that is where the real lessons live. We sit down with Lawrence Dunning to unpack a journey that moves from high-income trading to a five-year pro MMA run, then into Chicago real estate investing, brokerage, and ground-up development. Along the way, he shares what happens when a partnership implodes during COVID, money gets trapped, lawsuits appear, and you still have to show up and rebuild for your family and your future.

We get specific about new construction development versus rehabs, why “surprises behind the drywall” make rehab budgets risky, and how builders think in repeatable systems once they know their numbers. We also talk opportunity zones and up-and-coming neighborhoods, where developers bet on block-by-block change while managing tight margins, rising construction costs, and shifting buyer demand. If you are trying to break into development, you will hear practical guidance on finding a mentor, building a reliable team, and underwriting for multiple outcomes.

Then we zoom out to the mindset that holds everything together: patience with long-term goals, resisting social media comparison, protecting your attention, and modeling healthy screen habits for kids. Lawrence shares the books that shaped his thinking, and we end on a simple word with real power: gratitude. Subscribe, share this with an investor friend, and leave a five-star review. What is your non-negotiable backup plan when the market turns?

Transcript

Welcome And Chart Milestone

Dwan Bent-Twyford 0:47

Hey everybody, welcome to The Most Dwanderful REal Estate Podcast Ever. I am so happy that you are with me today. I have some super great news to share with you. So the most Dwanderful real estate podcast ever this week or in the last couple of weeks has been on Apple podcast charts in the top 100 under entrepreneurship. I was as high as eight. So I'm between like eight and seventy. So I can only hit number one if you guys will watch it and share it and talk about it. And I've been saying forever, please help me become number one. And also on the worldwide charts, I um did a search on that on a company called Listen Notes. If you want to go just look at it, if you have a podcast, tells you where you are, and I'm in the top 1% out of 3.7 million podcasts. So thank all of you for the support. And I'm in my eighth season, and even though I loved all of it, I feel like I'm finally like, I don't know, making some headway, getting up on the charts. You know, people that are big, big podcasts are calling me now, and it's like, oh hey, look, you just gotta just like real estate investing, you just keep going. Okay, it doesn't always just happen overnight for everybody. So anyway, um, I'm America's most started after real estate investor. I took my name Dwan and Wonderful and made Dwanderful. So you are in the Dwanderful universe, and I have such a good guest today. I'm so excited to uh interview this man. We talked on the phone a couple times, we had to reschedule all the things that happen, and I'm super excited. So I have Lawrence. I guess I should have asked pronouncing. I'm assuming it's Lawrence Dunning. I should have asked the last name because sometimes you know they don't sound like they look. So they're gonna have Lawrence on today, and girls, look at him. How cute is he? So we're gonna talk to Lawrence, we're gonna find out what he does, and we're just gonna have a good time. Follow me at Dwanderful, D-W-A-N-D-E-R-F-U-L everywhere. Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, just all the things. Everything is Dwanderful. Okay, so Mr. Lawrence, how are you today?

Lawrence Dunning 3:01

I am wonderful, and you have such good, positive, infectious energy. The older I get, the more I appreciate that. So thank you.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 3:08

Oh, you're welcome. Well, you know, one of the reasons I like to interview people first and I assume this has happened to you where you've interviewed somebody and they were not very talkative or they answered like one and two word answers. And I know that you're interviewing me after, but I don't always know everybody in advance. So I'm like, if I go first, I can loosen them up, I can pull some things out of them so when they interview me, they're more relaxed. Because some people you know are nervous. I mean, I've never been nervous ever, even on my first one. But some people are nervous on camera and you never know. So that's the reason that I go first.

Guest Values And Early Influences

Lawrence Dunning 3:51

Gotcha. No, I've had people bugging me to like I really want to go on your podcast. They're bugging me, bugging me, and then we do one, and it's like pulling blood out of a stone. And I don't think it you don't want to talk. I don't know if they're nervous or or what it is. So um, don't worry, you don't have to worry about that.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 4:05

Most of them, I honestly, well, you know, public speaking is like the number one fear. People are more afraid of public speaking than debt. Which is why I'll speak in front of 10 million people, and I don't care. So I think when they get on camera, I think people get camera shy or something, but I don't know. For me, I've never met a camera I didn't love. So I'm like, let me in front of the camera since I was a kid. I was always like, take my picture. So that's the thing. If you if you ever are doing a swap with somebody, you go first, lose a mim up, and then usually it's better. But you're you and I have already talked so many times. I feel like I know you.

Lawrence Dunning 4:45

Likewise.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 4:46

I do, I feel like I know you. All right, so uh what I like to do is just throw my uh folks just right to the wolves. We want you to just tell us your name and then like a sentence or two, what you do, all your socials, and then that's it. And then I'm gonna ask you a bunch of questions. And so we just want to know, Lawrence, what is your deal?

Lawrence Dunning 5:08

Well, my deal is trying to be I come from a martial arts background, and I always say my goal is to be a black belt in life. And mainly, you know, with uh obviously we were talking before we started recording about parenthood and kids, of course, you know, being a great father, but I love entrepreneurship. And I just got back from Europe. I was seeing my family and I saw my uncle, and I was just having all these wonderful memories of when I was eight, nine, ten years old. My dad had a stable job, but my my uncle was this wonderful entrepreneur traveling the world, and he would come over in his sports car and he'd take my brother and I out, and he'd tell us all these stories. And I would think, man, when I'm older, I want to be an entrepreneur just like my uncle. So to get to see him now was just all these wonderful memories came back, and I'm so grateful to have him in my life because when I was eight years old, I think at eight or nine, he bought me a book called How to Be a Millionaire. And you know, my dad, wonderful dad, but he never really talked to me about goals or dreams. He was just, I think he wanted me, he gave me a lot of love and he wanted me to figure it out. Whereas my uncle was this wonderful figure of someone who lived this crazy, he was an award-winning photographer, he would travel the world taking these wonderful photos, having all these stories, meeting all these famous people. So just to have that in my life was so wonderful. And I think that's it's great what you're doing is you're just, you know, you came as a single mom who became incredibly, you know, working pretty much minimum wage, and then you became very successful at rehabbing and selling houses, and now you're sharing that message that hey, if I can do it, you can do it too. And I think that's what's so powerful about this medium of podcasts is we can share these stories and we can encourage other people. But sorry, socials are. I love that.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 6:41

I love that because like you had like my dad, love my dad, my mom, my stepmom. Um, they were all factory workers, and you know, I graduated high school in 1977. So I know for some of you, you're like, oh my gosh, you were born in the 1900s? Yes, I was. At my time in Dayton, Ohio, we were raised with get out of high school, get married, have kids, and go work at the General Motors factory and work in a factory till you're 40, work for the man, and then retire. I was raised that way. So I got a job out of high school, and I I remember being there like two days and thinking, like, why would anybody want this for me? This is horrible. It's hot, it's awful, there's no air conditioner. Oh my god, who would want this for me? And then being kind of mad, like, why would you tell me that my whole life? This sucks. I gotta figure something else out because I'm gonna die here. It's nice that you had an example because a lot of people don't.

Lawrence Dunning 7:42

Exactly.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 7:43

I think.

Lawrence Dunning 7:43

And and you know, my dad had a great life. He's a retired airline pilot, but he also had the same job from the beginning of his career to the end of his career, and right at the end, they kind of screwed him over the last couple of years. And I just remember I was a very impressionable age, like late teens, and he was so miserable. And there was all this bureaucracy and all these changes, and he was kind of, you know, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, and he was kind of resisting it. And he ended up getting really screwed over at his pension, he lost a whole bunch of money, and he just retired really bitter. And ever since then, I always thought, you know, I had a lot of jobs. I worked since I was 12 years old. I had all the terrible jobs you have when you're young, so that you can appreciate being working for yourself, being an entrepreneur, taking the risk, taking the ups and the downs. I would definitely take that over the alternative. So and it's not perfect, you know, some people I've got friends that say I could never be an entrepreneur. I just don't have the right mindset. I want stability, I don't want the risk. Whereas for me, you know, unfortunately, you know, you are gonna have some tough times, you are gonna have some some extra stresses. Sometimes you work a lot more as an entrepreneur than if you don't. But for me, it's I couldn't imagine another life. It's I've been that way since I was 24 working for myself, and it's just been such an incredible journey. Not not without the lows, but there's been so many. Tell us what you do.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 8:54

We've all talked about that. Tell us what you do.

Lawrence Dunning 8:57

Yes. Oh, what I do. So I started in real estate. Actually, I was a trader and I made all this money in my 20s, and then I turned 30 and I realized that I'd kind of fallen out of love with trading. And I loved martial arts, and I was competing, and I was like, you know, I want to try professional MMA and I want to see how far I can go before I'm too old because I have a very small window, you know, I'm 30 already, it's old for an athlete.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 9:24

I love MMA. It's oh my god, I'm an boxing MMA girl from since I was this big.

Lawrence Dunning 9:31

Wow. That's what I want to see. I knew we were kind of spirits, that's beautiful. But I basically took this sabbatical, I spent five years and I had nine pro fights. I did a bunch of jujitsu tournaments, I traveled the world, did tracklons and marathons, I did all these cool physical things. And

Trading, Fighting, And Reinventing Career

Lawrence Dunning 9:45

then while I was doing that, I made every mistake a young man with money could make. Plus, I went through the 2009 stock market crash, lost a whole bunch of money there, invested in a couple of French startups, lost money there. Then I came to my last fight, and I had a lot of friends at the time saying, you know, you're a smart guy, you've taken a lot of head trauma. Maybe you should quit while you're ahead. You know, don't keep doing this too long. And I thought, yeah, I'm probably, I think I've got what I want to out of this part of my life. And I looked at my bank account and it was pretty pretty sorry state. And I thought, well, I'm just gonna go back on the floor. I'm gonna go back on. I was trading in the Chicago border trade. I'm gonna go back on the floor and keep making all this money. What I didn't appreciate was those five years I was away, the business model of the small trading groups had completely gone. It was all these big companies and high frequency trading. So I went, I was in a bit of an existential crisis. I was like, I'm too young to have a midlife crisis, but I feel like I'm in one because I have no idea what I'm gonna do. And luckily, I had a really good friend who lived in my my high-rise building in Chicago. He had a dog, I had a dog. So we're we were both night owls. So I would see him late at night, we'd walk our dogs, we'd just chat. And he he was an attorney. And he said, I hate being an attorney. I want to set up a real estate company. You'll do so well in real estate with your British accent, and I can help mentor you, and we can work together. And I thought, that sounds kind of good. And then he would talk about things like we can do rehabs together, there's so much money and flipping, but he didn't really know anything, he just knew the idea. So I thought that's great. And then he was actually my broker, he had his real estate license too. He was my broker, and I bought one building, one commercial building when I was making all this money. And that was the all the financial mistakes I made. That was the only smart decision I made because it ended up not doing great, but at least I put a bunch of money down. It was like a it I maintained some of my capital, put it that way. So then when he said that, I thought, yeah, let's give this real estate thing a go. And it was so tough because he was a he was a residential broker, so he wasn't the best mentor for me because my natural thing that I was interested in was investments and rehabs and developments. So the first two years of my career were pretty tough because I'd come from making all this money trading, and suddenly my first year in real estate, I didn't make much at all. The second year got a bit better. I started to meet people, I started to do rehab developments, and then I ended up doing really well. I partnered with a couple of developers, and then I'm at 2020 comes around, just before COVID. I have nine multi-unit developments all going on, different stages. I have all my money invested, friends, family. COVID comes, my developed development partner, his wife got cancer, and I think it was just like a screw the world kind of thing. So he ended up taking all the money, declaring bankruptcy, leaving me with lawsuits and losing you know, all my money was invested with him that I lost.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 12:25

Oh my god.

Lawrence Dunning 12:26

So I had to go through this. That was kind of the the highs and lows of entrepreneurship. That was kind of the low. And uh my wife was pregnant at the time, and I just remember thinking like, not not just it's not about my money, but my my uncle that I just saw, he had money invested, my dad had money, my friends, and you know, all these people. So I did I did what I could do with that awful situation,

COVID Deal Collapse And Hard Lessons

Lawrence Dunning 12:45

and it ended up being pretty terrible. But I got through it, which is a great lesson for anyone listening, no matter how bad it is. If it's just money problems, that they're the good problems, the health problems, it's a lot more serious. So I got through it and now I'm kind of through the other side, and I've got all these wonderful relationships with developers. I'm doing some, I'm doing five new new construction developments right now that I'm in different stages of. And I do I work with a lot of developers where I sell their projects for them. Sometimes I invest with them, sometimes I don't. But just to play a part in seeing these areas of Chicago that are kind of the forgotten areas, they're not in the most glamorous areas, but I'm working with these developers that are changing Chicago block by block and they're dealing with all the challenges you had developing in Chicago. It fills me with a lot of pride, and I'm just so passionate about that and helping them. And most of these developers, they've got, you know, wonderful stories. So, for instance, one of them is a dear friend of mine. He grew up in a farm outside Guadalajara and he ran away from home at 13. And now he's you know in his 40s, he's one of the top developers in Chicago. And there's just so many of these developers, they have these incredible stories. You know, they they didn't they didn't have much education, they didn't have much opportunities, but they started on job sites in their teenage years, they kind of learned the tools of the trade, they got their license eventually, they kind of worked their way up from little rehabs in bad areas, and now they're building these beautiful million-dollar buildings that it's just it's so awesome to see their stories and to be a part of it.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 14:08

Yeah, no, I love it. So tell me the name of your company.

Lawrence Dunning 14:12

So, well, my my company is the the Dunning Group, but I work under Fulton Grace, which is a big company in Chicago, a big real estate company. And then I have different companies, you know, like I have uh Knightsbridge Development is my development LLC. And so we're doing some projects right now. And uh it's it's development is really interesting because I love because well, people think, and it's very interesting because I'm sure my experience is different to yours because we're in a different area of the US. But people see you know these beautiful billion-dollar buildings, they think, oh, these developers are making all this money, but the margins are so tight, and the construction costs, even in the last two months, they've gone up about 10%, which you know, if you've got a $600,000 budget, suddenly you've got to come up with another 60,000 that you didn't plan for when you when you did your initial projections. So it's just it's been that's something that as I I want to do more and more developments and less regular brokerage, but they work very well together because brokerage is is risk-free income and development is uh much more risk, but you can make more money. And it's I think it's much more satisfying to be to be part of that development. So it's um it's it's it's been wonderful. I think I'm very lucky that my real estate uh book of business it revolves around about 10 developers that I work with, and I'm not like some of these brokers where they always have to find new buyers and new sellers, and they're always searching for lead generation and things like that. I'm lucky because I'm working with the same people, you know, year in, year out. And they're just like I said before, they're just they so many of them have these incredible stories, and I find that so inspiring because I'm an immigrant. You know, I grew up in England and I came to America and it took me 20 years to get my citizenship, which is a horrible story in itself. And I'm just so proud. Like, you know, no country's perfect, but I'm so proud to be in a country where you have the opportunity that we have here. And I think that's something that um we're actually seeing it right now. There's a lot of things in the news because we're recording this in the middle of the World Cup, and there's been a lot of negative press about America and a lot of these countries, like in Europe or in Africa or things like that. And people are coming here and they're saying, like, wow, like this country is amazing, and that they're just so surprised at the difference between the negative media and the actual positive reality. I think that's really cool because I think a lot of people in America don't appreciate what they have because they haven't Americans are just spoiled.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 16:27

I think we're all spoiled. I feel like somehow, and I don't know where it happened because my dad was uh like my grandparents were in World War II. So my dad grew up in the war times where even children had war rations to get your food, you know, and then somewhere along the way, just everyone became entitled. My I don't know. I think that's happened like in the last 15 years. Everyone just like, oh, I'm entitled, I need my breath, I need my space, I need this, I need that. You know, America's terrible. And I'm like, No. Y'all wait till there's some hard times and then you talk to me about it. You know, one thing I said, tell me where you are on their social media so everybody can find you.

Lawrence Dunning 17:09

Oh, yes. Uh Lauren Stunning is my name, and uh, all my handles are just my name. So very easy to find. Oh, I like nothing, nothing complicated. But I really think talking to social media, Duane, I think that's one of the reasons that we feel very entitled, and it's not just in America, I think it's in Western Europe as well. Is you compare yourself, you know, everybody's putting their best foot forward, people are seeing other people on social media traveling the world, posing in front of expensive cars, and they just think that everyone's got everything, so they feel entitled to that. But the reality is, I read this fascinating statistic the other day. You've got these um these influencers that say they're an influencer and they make $80,000 a year through their social media. They're spending $75,000 of that leasing cars and leasing planes to post for photos and take these trips to take the photos, and it just seems like you're running on a treadmill to nowhere. So it's a very strange world that my my five-year-old son and your grandkids are growing up in. Um, and then combine that with the fact that so much online now, you don't even know if it's real or if it's AI. So it's a it's a very weird, wild, interesting time. I think.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 18:14

I'm at the point now when I see AI video, I'm just like, ugh. I just if I if I can tell it's AI, I don't watch it. It's like I just I want to see real things of real people. Like I gotta tell you something. The last

Development In Chicago And Margins

Dwan Bent-Twyford 18:25

couple of weeks, I spent I at least an hour a night on TikTok watching all the videos from all the people from like Scotland and all the places, and they've been going to Bucky and they've been going to the Waffle House, and they're like in Walmart, and they're like, oh my god, we're in a museum and it's Walmart. And seeing all of those people and the thing where they row and they go and watching all that, it's like these people are falling in love with America. Their videos are like so inspiring. I feel like they made me so proud to be an American because these people are blown away and they say, We were told we'll be dead in the street, there's fights in the street, you're don't go, and they came, and it's like I I heard someone on the news calling it like the great American sleepover, and like all of America's like, we want all the Scottish people to come back, and all the British, and like the Japanese people clean the stadium. It's like bring them back, and they're seeing it, and the videos of them going and eating like barbecue and just the simplest thing. I'm telling you, I I watch those every night because I die laughing over how funny it is.

Lawrence Dunning 19:32

Well, it's you know, I think I think there's so much value when I was young and I didn't have much money. Whatever money I got, I spent on travel. And there's a confusion expression about how much you learn. It's like a thousand miles of travel is like reading, you know, a hundred books or something. And I'll tell you a story. So my dad, he was a pilot for British Airways and he got to travel the world, stay, you know, British Airways would put him up in these lovely hotels and resorts when he would fly to these different places. And when he retired, he said, you know, I've seen the world from hotel rooms, nice hotel rooms and resorts. He said, I actually want to see the world. So my dad's my my uh idol, he's incredible. He spent two years after he retired, he cycled from London to Sydney, and he he has so many crazy wild adventures and stories. And he said, of all those countries, he said, one of the ones that were the nicest people, the most hospitable, the ones that were he said he could barely make any headway because everyone was always trying to stop him to give him tea and to give him food. It was Iran. And look what where we're at right now. You know, there's all this negative press about Iran. And I think a lot of people can't hold two ideas in their head. The Iranian leadership can be terrible because they're killing their own people, but the Iranian people can be some of the most warm, hospitable, lovely people. And I think it's the same, you know, you you can differentiate between I don't like the Chinese leadership, but that's not the Chinese people. You know, look at America. America is divided 50-50 both sides. So I think it's a good thing to remember that don't listen to to stereotypes and try to experience as much as you can. And I think the older I get, the more I see, the more I learn, the more, the more I just I just want to go back to first principles and figure things out for myself because so many people have obscure motives. And I think like you what you said, this World Cup is a great example. America is not perfect, but it's it's it's incredible. And I can't imagine a different country I'd rather go to to raise my son than than living in the in the Midwest.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 21:23

I was so happy when the World Cup, my when my um when each of my kids graduate high school, part of their graduation is I we went backpacking in Europe for three weeks. So me and the child. So I said, listen, you're gonna put on not like backpacking, like sleeping out in the woods, like Marriott Hotels, because you know, it's me, but like everything in a backpack, and we're gonna buy um the VAP URL paths, so you know anywhere we want to go in Europe and we'll go and if we like a place we'll stay two or three days. If we don't like it, we'll go someplace else, we'll just be super free. Well, with my oldest daughter, we actually happened to go when the World Cup was in Germany. Now I did not know this. We didn't know. We flew in to England and like took the tunnel and went to France and Belgium and then went to Germany, and this was a World Cup. Well, we have never like experienced being in the country during the World Cup. And even though they we were there for three weeks, every time we'd leave Germany, we're like, no, let's just go back. It's so much fun over there. And we spent half the time there because everyone was fun and all the flags were on the streets, and everybody was partying, and it was like, it was like the greatest thing I have ever seen. And I was like, oh my God, uh, this is unbelievable. And then we actually stayed at this uh super bougie hotel. Like a spa, a couple spa days, and the team I think from Austria was staying at the hotel.

Lawrence Dunning 22:52

Oh wow, that's okay.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 22:53

So but we didn't, so we ended up having to buy like a World Cup book so we could see who everybody was. So they said, Oh, you can't use the pole because they're trained. I'm like, girl, I'm spending $500 for not, I'm using that pole. And so I was mad. And then they're like, Well, you can't use the gym because they're trained. I'm like, listen, I'm an American. I don't care about the World Cup. I'm an Austria. Oh, no, no, I'm gonna stay at this hotel. And they're like, All right, listen, you two can just your mother daughter do what you want. So we met all the people on the team, and then we were like, felt bad for being rude and expectant, and they all took pictures with us and they signed our magazines and we hung out with them for like three days. I'm like, I don't think I've ever had so much fun in my whole entire life. It's like it was so fun. So I know how those people are over here that just have to be like, what the heck? This is the greatest thing that's ever happened.

Speaker 1 23:40

Yes. And it's what's sort of interesting. One thing I've noticed, I noticed just now being in Europe, I was I spent most of the time in Italy because my parents split their time between England and basically the border between France and Italy in the south. And I just I think if you can blend the opportunity of living in America, but the the quality of life that they have in in um you know the Mediterranean. Yeah. Because you just see them, they they take these long lunch breaks and they're having you know cappuccinos with their friends and they're laughing. And it's you see so much more people interacting without their phones. In in the US, you know, it's it's that those famous photos you go to restaurants and everyone's sitting around the table just looking at their phones, they're not really interacting. Whereas in Europe, it I really notice the difference between people

Europe, Phones, And Real Connection

Speaker 1 24:25

laughing and joking and looking in each other's eyes, not looking down at a screen. So I think if you can take that, just the quality and the enjoyment of those small, so small things, the social interactions, the the pleasure of of eating dinner with with people you care about, yeah, that kind of lifestyle and and mirror and marry that with the opportunity that we have in the US. I think that's just the perfect blend. And I always get a new appreciation for things like that when I go when I go back to Europe.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 24:51

No, I agree with you. And the thing is like now you're raising a child, so you have to really realize like, is the screen time good for them? How do they act when I take it away? They're too young. So now it's like when even when my adult kids come over, I'm like, no, everybody put your phones over there. You're here, we're gonna eat dinner, we're gonna talk, we're gonna be civilized people. If I see you pick up your phone and the grandkids, and and it's like, no, no phones when you're over here. You're hanging out with me, we're gonna hang out the way we did before all of you had phones. So I make them. And then you can see them sometimes looking over there, like their phone buzz, and they're like, I'm like, no, no, listen, that's it. You get we lived our whole lives and had every dinner together, and now you guys want to do that at the table if it's not happening. I don't care what you do at your house, I don't care what you do at restaurants, or when you're here, we're hanging out. And I'm like, firm, I don't budge. And they and that's why I think the grandkids love being over here because they get our attention.

Lawrence Dunning 25:48

Yes.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 25:49

You know, they're not like I'm not like, oh here, take this and watch something. They get the attention, and the kids need it.

Lawrence Dunning 25:56

You're you I can tell you're a strong matriarch of the family, and I think that's awesome. Um, and I couldn't agree more. And I noticed it with myself. I used to be, I I had the most incredible concentration. Like when I was, I think after my high school, before I started college, so I would must have been 18 that summer break I had. I remember when I wasn't working, so I I would always work. When I wasn't working, I would sit in my parents' backyard and I remember reading Leo Tolstoy's War and Peace, you know, this crazy 1200-page book or something. And I would just sit there reading it for focus for hours. And now I noticed because I use my phone a lot in real estate, it's very hard to read, you know, a huge book. I get intimidated because I know I've I've got a million things going. So one thing I did when I was in Europe is I consciously made the effort. I took a really big, huge biography of um uh Rockefeller, the uh the industrialist in the 1880s. I took a huge and I read it, and it was so nice just to take a big break from technology and just dive into a book. And it was such a fascinating story because number one, he was a Elon Musk is a modern-day Rockefeller, very controversial figure at the time, richest man in the world. But it was so interesting because when you it was talking about a lot of the industrial revolution in in the US and people's mentality and how politicians were corrupt and people thought that the the young people didn't have the right morals of the day. And all the things that we talk about now, they were talking about in the 1880s, 1890s, 1900. It's the same thing, and it made me appreciate that I just don't want to be taken in by this mentality that things are getting worse, and that there's no that you know it's not an optimistic thing for the youth. I'm I'm very optimistic for this next generation. I saw my kids' kindergarten graduation, and every every kid told the teacher where they want to be at 20. And it was just I can't I left I left this five-year-old graduation survey so inspired. I was like, all these firemen and policemen and I want to be a scientist. And my son said, When I'm 20 years old, I want to live at home and work with my dad in real estate. And my heart was just, oh, it was so wonderful. But um, so it's it's just so nice to read a book about you know, a century and a half ago in the US. People were talking about the same things that we're talking about now. The world keeps turning, life goes on, the most important things are still going to be the most important things, you know, human interaction, not being addicted to your phone. Um, but it's a constant struggle. I guess the point of all of this, Juan, is I have to fight it myself, and I'm an incredibly distant person. So I think if I have to fight it and I'm disciplined, then it's a struggle for everybody, but it's a worthwhile struggle. You know, take time away from your screens, take time away from the addiction and just be present with people. I think it's so important. And that's actually one of the reasons I love podcasting, is because my phone's off and we're connecting, and it's just so nice. It's it's almost like a rarity these days that you get to have an hour conversation uninterrupted.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 28:45

I know, I love it. I I love it too. Now, I I have uh my husband and I both have uh very addictive personalities. So I have to be really careful about I don't know, Netflix. I'll start binging something with 26 shows and I'll watch them all. I'll just stay awake and watch them all. It's like okay. I cannot do that. So I have to be careful about that stuff. But let's talk about you. So talk about your developing. So somebody is brand new, listen to the podcast today, they love your story, they love you, they're vibing with you. Like, you know, I would like to kind of maybe get into that that field. Like, what are like three actionable tips that someone could take to make those first steps like you had to?

Lawrence Dunning 30:11

Well, one thing that I've noticed with a lot of people that build new construction is most of them started with some kind of rehabs, and then as soon as they moved to new construction, they they were like, I can't believe I didn't do this earlier. I would never go back to rehabs. And the reason is because when you start rehabbing, most buildings are different. You you can get an idea where the value will be when you're finished if you're looking to sell it, but you never know what's behind the drywall, you never know what the extent am I gonna have to do a new foundation. You can have all these unexpected costs. Whereas typically with new construction, you know, the value of the lot might change. But once you have the lot, you know that it's gonna be 9,000 for my architectural fees, 5,000 for my city plans, and about 600,000 to build this building. And a lot of them are just each building that they're they're making little tweaks and changes, but the business model is pretty much set. Um, so that's something to consider. But I think if if someone's looking to do it, I would definitely recommend finding a good mentor. So one of my developments, uh developers, sorry,

Actionable New Construction Advice

Lawrence Dunning 31:09

he's he makes a lot of money on his develop on his on his new construction, but he really enjoys mentoring people on their first new construction building. He just he just really enjoys it. I think he makes more money on development than he does on his mentorship, but he just he just really enjoys that human aspect of helping people. So if you're looking to build in the Midwest, find someone like that. His I don't know what his exact fee is. I know it changes depending on how involved you want him to be, but it's minimal compared to building a you know six, six hundred, six hundred fifty thousand dollar building. It's it's gonna be a minimal fee, and you're gonna have someone who's gonna not only be able to mentor on all the different steps, but he's also gonna be able to tell you, hey, this is a good architect to use, hey, this is a good expedite for your permits, and he can just help you solve all those problems. So I think uh finding a good mentor for the construction is important, uh and then definitely doing your research on the uh finished uh sale value because uh in uh most people building in Chicago, there's I guess there's two types of build builders.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 32:11

There's one you're doing everything from the ground up, like you're taking a piece of land, you guys are like we got a vacant piece of land and we're going ground up.

Lawrence Dunning 32:20

100%, yes, exactly. And there's there's two, I think there's broadly speaking, there's two different types of developers. There's the ones that are going in the really nice neighborhoods and they're building there, and there's ones that are building in the up-and-coming neighborhoods, kind of where it changes from good to bad, and you go two blocks into the bad area, assuming that it's things the boundaries are going to keep moving over time. That's how they make their money, is they're trying to they're trying to pick the up-and-coming area.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 32:44

But they go into the opportunity zones.

Lawrence Dunning 32:46

Yeah, exactly.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 32:47

See, that's what we do. We buy everything in the opportunity zone.

Lawrence Dunning 32:50

Yes, exactly. And the big advantage to that is if you're building in the really good areas, you just you just tend to the lots are very expensive and the numbers are just you're doing higher end finishes. So you just need a lot more capital. So that naturally kind of makes the makes the available pool of people that have that much money smaller. So that's not really my niche. My niche is kind of working in those up and coming areas. Um, so I think knowing knowing the the finished value is is important, but also, especially because so if I've been in real estate on the on the rehab and development side for about 12 years. And one thing I've noticed is I could split those 12 years right in the middle because you have the six years before COVID and then the six years after. And the six years before, it was basically the same market all those six years. It was kind of slow and steady, very slow appreciation, very nice. The last six years has just been wild because you had the 2020, the world shut down, then 2021, interest rates went to almost zero. It was free money, the market was booming for a couple of years, then the last two years, suddenly rates went up to 40-year highs. So you've had you know four or five different markets. So it's very hard if your if your project is 12 months from buying the lot, getting the permits, breaking ground and selling, it's very hard to tell today where's the market going to be in 12 months. You know, I have an idea, you have an idea, who knows you know, how how right we're gonna be. So that's something to consider is your exit strategy. If you build something and the rents are gonna be pretty good, and you can work it out so that, you know, say in in 12 months, I start a project today, and it or anyone listening, they start a project today, and in 12 months, there's another crazy black swan event like COVID or something crazy. Well, you can always rent out the units, refinance with a traditional kind of um long-term loan, pay off whatever construction loan, or if you have private investors, pay them off, and then just hold it, collect the rent, and wait until the environment gets better. So I think that's it's always having a good backup plan.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 34:52

So there was having options for the whole project.

Lawrence Dunning 34:56

Exactly. Typically we sell, but um right now it's a very interesting market because in in Chicago, ever since the Iran hostilities, so it's been about two months, interest rates went back up. And there's been, I want to say that there's kind of a bit more fear in the air. There's a lot more hesitation with investors pulling the trigger. I've had a few people sending offers, and then before the other side have signed, they've said, I just don't feel right buying right now. The environment seems a bit too risky. Um, so a few of my developers are just like, okay, you know, I'll just get them fully rented, I'll collect 8,000 a month, and we'll see in three months, maybe the market's a bit better, you know. So having having different strategies, I think it's really important from when you go into a project. And I always tell people, it's the same if you're just buying a finished building, you also have that same strategy because you're thinking, okay, I'm buying today, interest rate suck for investors. I think, you know, I just got a quote the other day, 6.8%, which is it's kind of high. So if in a year there the rate is lower, I'm gonna refinance and it's gonna be great because my cash flow is gonna go up. If in 12 months interest rates are not higher, I'm sorry, are not lower, that means that there's so much inflation that everything's inflating. So it means the the all the material costs to buy a building have gone up. So the value of the building is probably appreciated, say 50,000. So you're gonna have a bit of equity there. The rent prices are gonna inflate as well with inflation. So next cycle, when you resign the tenants, you're gonna be able to bump up the rents. So, yes, I'm not gonna be able to refinance at a cheaper price, but my income's gonna go up from the rents, and I'm gonna have some equity because the building's appreciated. So you you want to think like that, like you know, whatever the scenario is gonna be, I want to have um options and I want to have um I really think long term, it's very difficult to lose money in real estate if you if you go into the building with with the right thing, you know, if it's an overpriced building in a really bad neighborhood, it might be a bit tough. But as long as the neighbor's not too bad and and the building's in in pretty good shape, we've just seen, you know, especially in the Midwest, I think Chicago rents were up 11% year on year. And I don't really see these trends changing, unfortunately. And if you go, if you look, look back, I'm a big um finance guy. So if you look back at when Nixon came off the gold standard, I think it's been about 52 years. Unfortunately, inflation has just been persistent, everything is just keep keeps getting more expensive. And I just I don't really see that trend changing. I think it's on us to get financial knowledge, listen to podcasts like yours, and and realize that things are just gonna keep getting more and more expensive. So rents are gonna keep going up, real estate is gonna keep going up, the price of gold is probably gonna keep going up, the price of the stock market is gonna keep probably going up, life is just gonna keep getting more expensive. And so, my big message that I want to spread to people is if you're on a fixed salary and you rent your place and life keeps going up, you're gonna be in real trouble. But if you can somehow get assets that will appreciate with inflation, it's gonna protect you. So the sooner you can get on that ladder, the better. And I mean, you you have great options in Chicago. You have things like if you if you buy a building that the the developer developed from the Chicago Land Bank, they'll give you 20,000, just free money if you're an own occupant. So you can buy a three-unit building for 750,000, you can live in the top unit, you can rent the other two out for 5,000, you get 20,000 to put down, you can buy it with 5% down, you can get some seller credit. So, in effect, you're buying it with almost zero down. The 5,000 are going to cover almost all your mortgage, your insurance, and your tax. And you have an appreciating asset that in three years is probably worth a million dollars, you know. So a bit of knowledge like that, I think goes a long way. And that's the message that I want to spread to people unfortunately, you can't rely on mayors, governments, people to save you. We have to save ourselves by by making smart decisions as early as we can.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 38:46

No, I agree. And you know, it's like a lot of people go into these things like just I'm gonna fix it, build it, da da da, and sell it. And they don't have any, there's no backup plan whatsoever. And then next thing you know, you get like something like that old 2008 crash and 8910, and like people are losing millions, you know, and then COVID comes and like the whole world shuts down, and people and it I think a lot of it is because people are over-leveraged, they don't have a backup plan, they're just like, I'm gonna do this and this and this and this, but then life doesn't work out that way. So you have to be like, okay, I'm gonna do this and this. I have plan A, plan B, and maybe plan C. And worst case scenario, otherwise you're just you can lose all your money in one deal and go, man, I tried to do real estate, and now I'm dead pro. Or you could do one deal and make, you know, my million dollars on a building and be like, oh, this is the greatest thing in the world. What the heck?

Lawrence Dunning 39:41

Well, I really like what you said. I was listening to what you podcast.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 39:45

Like when I uh I do a lot of coaching too. But I I work with people that are like fresh, fresh investors that want to like rehab and be a landlord and do wholesaling and this and that. I'm always like, listen, you gotta be realistic, you can't pay too much for things, you've got to think it through, you've got to figure out what can you do, what can you hire, what you know, like what are your goals, and you gotta have a plan. Otherwise, something happens and

Backup Plans, Leverage, And Inflation

Dwan Bent-Twyford 40:09

you're just gonna lose all your stuff and just one fell swoop.

Lawrence Dunning 40:13

Exactly. Well, you had you had a podcast recently where you were talking about the need to have um, you know, a certain amount of months of of living expenses to to get by. And I think there's isn't there something like 50% of the US has less than a thousand dollars in liquid cash savings, or there's some crazy statistic like that. And I think just being being smart, living below your means, and having a certain amount of months living expenses to cover you is so important just to weather the bad times. Because even in you know, every economy, as as long as we've been keeping records, there's always booms and busts, and you've got to be able to live through the bad times. And even if you look at 2008, that was the worst stock market crash, I think, in a century. And four years later, most prices had recovered to new highs. It took, oh, it took only four years, and that was a one-sided.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 41:02

And the thing is, me and my husband and all of our students, I told everyone, listen, they're doing all these interest-only loans for three to five years. So millions of loans are gonna come due in three years, and people are have these little tiny $500 mortgage payment that's gonna go to 15, not gonna be able to afford it. So millions of houses are gonna go on the market at the exact same time, and the market's gonna crash. And people were, and I had a few I Bill and I said that in front of a whole group one time, and they were like, Ooh, I said, Listen, I've been following this for a long time. So every student we had, I said, You especially have rentals, look at all your rentals, how many can you sell to pay everything off? And just sit that way for three or four years because the market's gonna crash, because millions of houses are gonna come on the market at one time. And then look, I know people that lost as much as 50 million dollars. And like the people that we work with and us, we didn't lose a dime because we had nothing over leveraged, we had everything rented. If something sat empty or the rent went down, we were like, it's okay, we don't have any mortgages on anything, we're fine. And so you have to work with people too that kind of like can look ahead at things like that.

Lawrence Dunning 42:18

Well, what's so interesting is uh during the the biggest stock market crash in history in 1929, back then people were buying stocks on 10% leverage. Very, very unusual. Most people buy stocks now or zero leverage, they just buy stocks. So it's that's the problem is leverage is great, you can make a lot of money, but you can also lose everything, and that's why people were committing suicide and things like that in reading all about that stuff.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 42:41

Yeah, they tell people like, listen, when the stock market crashes, if you're new, buy stuff while it's on sale. It's like there's a worldwide sale, buy some houses, buy the everything's crashed, buy it now while it's on sale, and just let it go. But yeah, I mean, back then that was like that was uh that was something, and yeah, people were killing themselves. It's like, oh my gosh, you know, but it's a thing and the big housing market crash there, and it made people you know scary or scared for a while, and now I'm like, listen, stop worrying about stuff, just buy things. If you buy it right, you're gonna be okay. Exactly. Stop worrying about it.

Lawrence Dunning 43:19

I think there's something kind of going back to the entitled attitude and social media, people want things really quickly. And one thing I noticed in my only had this, you know, as you get older, you start to look back at your life, and you have you have these things you realize based on the things you live through. And I had this realization in just a just a couple of months ago. I was like, I had in my 20s, I had everything going well for me. I made all this money trading. I was a young guy, I was living in America, having a great time, you know, dating attractive women, traveling, traveling the world, doing all these one the Chicago Golden Gloves. I was doing everything I wanted to do, and everything came to me with ease. And then in my 30s, I had a lot of ups and downs. And it was really tough emotionally. And I realized because I had I was comparing myself to how I was in my 20s. And I realized that now, when I really want something, I don't want it tomorrow. I don't want it next month. I want to try to spread it out even years in the future because I know what we're humans are comparative species. So we compare ourselves to where we were last year, we compare ourselves to where our peers are today. And so if you spread out your wins as long as you can, you're gonna get much more enjoyment. And it's a really weird thing to get your head around. It's the opposite of the mindset where I want to get everything now is I don't even I know what I want, I have long-term goals, but I I don't have any expiration date on when I want them. I want to spread them out as long as I can because I know human psychology, I know what it's like to get too much too quickly. And that's uh that was a really weird uh thing to realize. But the blessings of my 20s cursed my 30s. That was a really

Patience With Goals And Parenting

Lawrence Dunning 44:49

funny thing.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 44:50

I know exactly what you mean. I just I know exactly what you mean. But see, are you are you a millennial or are you a genetic?

Lawrence Dunning 44:58

Uh I was born in 1979. So does that make me a I don't know.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 45:02

I think the oldest millennials are like 45. You might be an at.

Lawrence Dunning 45:05

Yes, I'm 47.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 45:07

Like my kids are all millennials.

Lawrence Dunning 45:09

Okay.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 45:10

So and I think you know, we took them everywhere, we traveled with them, we did everything. Like we, you know, we but they had to, they weren't like we never bought anything for them. We would buy their school clothes at the beginning of the year, and it's like anything you Want you got to work for. So they had to buy their own gas, their own movie tickets, but like they had to buy everything. And we took them on, but we traveled with them a lot, like a lot to a point for a while. We had a tutor and we just traveled all over the place speaking and taking the kids everywhere. And then we said, once you turn 18, you have to pay for your own things. So the first one turns 18, and you know, she's out of high school. I'm like, hey, we're gonna go on a cruise. You want to come? She says, I do. So she gets the answer, go buy your own ticket, and then she comes back. She's like, Oh my god, do you know how much airline tickets and a cruise? See how much that stuff costs? I can't afford to go on a cruise. I'm 18 years old. Like, well, you didn't mind spending my money.

Lawrence Dunning 46:00

I have a funny story about that, John. When I was young, my dad would take the family away sometimes on his work trips. And we would, you know, British Airways would put him up in a lovely resort. You know, he'd only take us to the nice places. So say he was going, he would fly a lot to the Caribbean. So we'd take us to Barbados and would stay in this lovely resort with a wonderful buffet and a lovely room and a nice pool. And so I didn't, he never actually explained to me this is not normal. This is a really nice hotel. So I never forget when I took my first trip by myself, I went with the next girlfriend to Thailand. And I had no money, you know, I had a little bit from little jobs I had, and I got some $25, you know, room. And I remember I walked in the hotel room and it's this tiniest, nastiest room. There's a couple of cockroaches in the bathroom. And in my brain, like the cogs are kind of turning. I'm like, I thought a hotel meant a nice hotel. And I was like, oh my goodness. And it was like a real shock. So uh so now I want to explain to my son, like, listen, Danny works hard, so you can stay in nice hotels. But when you're young, you're not gonna have the money. You're gonna be your standard of living's gonna go down a bit. You have to work hard to earn the nice things.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 47:04

So some of my kids were like, oh my gosh. So within a year of all of them graduating high school, like, well, we can't afford to travel with you guys anymore. I was like, well, hey, that's all right, it's our time now. So they didn't know. It's and it is funny because that's what you think when you're a kid, you don't know. And all that stuff is probably half it was probably free or comped. You guys got free tickets, and then exactly all right. So let me let me ask you a couple personal questions. What's your favorite band of all time?

Lawrence Dunning 47:34

Oh my goodness, that's um that's such a great question. Um this is kind of a funny one. It's actually um when I when I was uh young, I used to love EDM music. And I didn't drink, I didn't drink coffee, I would go to these dance clubs, I would drink water, and I would just dance all night with my friends. We'll we were all crazy about it. And uh there's a DJ called Paul Oakenfold, and I saw him play all over in Ibiza, the the the party island in Spain. I saw him in London, I saw him everywhere. Um, so I would I would say that's not really a traditional band, but that I have so many memories of just following this DJ wherever he went, you know, with my friends. So that that would be No, I love that.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 48:12

What's his last name?

Lawrence Dunning 48:14

His name is Paul Oakenfold.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 48:17

No, I'm gonna look it up. My daughter works for um EDC.

Lawrence Dunning 48:21

Okay.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 48:22

That does all the uh it stands for like their Daisy Carnival. They do those big uh what are they called? The big EDC things where everybody goes and you like take whatever they take and the music's on all night, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But she's like second in charge of a branch, an EDC off Live Nation. So I actually personally know like quite a few like popular DJs right now. It's like, oh, that's kind of fun. But then I think at that, I'm like, man, I went, she's like she begged me to go. My girls are four-day. It's just not even boat, boom, boom, boom.

Rapid Fire Favorites And Night Owls

Dwan Bent-Twyford 48:54

I don't think my heart can take it.

Lawrence Dunning 48:56

Well, I just I just remember it was it was the millennium, and uh, so it so it was the I went to London with my brother. We're on one of the big London bridge, everyone's packed in there, we're celebrating the millennium, and then we end up going to some nightclub, and my brother's just having such a great time. And I remember I was so tired it was, I don't know, 5:30 in the morning, and I was half asleep leaning against one of the speakers with with the bass just going right into my ear, probably wrecking my hearing. And I remember him waking me up, half asleep, saying, Hey, we've only got half an hour before it closes, let's make the most of this. And I just remember thinking, God, I'm so tired. So when I think back to those years about how the energy you have when you're young is just it's on another level. Now I couldn't imagine trying to dance till six without any uh I didn't even drink coffee back then, you know. It was just youthful energy.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 49:43

Yeah, I know. In the 80s, we stayed out all night long, went and had breakfast at Denny's, and then went to work. Hands salon, no sleep, no nothing. Now it's like, gosh, if I stay up till two, it's like that's like I I'm a night owl. What are we talking about? I'm a night owl.

Lawrence Dunning 49:58

Yeah, we are we are night owls, yes.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 50:00

I really come alive, it gets like eight o'clock at night. It's like, okay, the world's coming to that. Do you know food?

Lawrence Dunning 50:08

Um, which one? But real quickly, do you know the evolutionary basis of you and I being night owls?

Dwan Bent-Twyford 50:13

Yes, you told me that. Oh, yes, I googled that, and that is true. That is true, yeah. Like watch at night so people could sleep. My I have to have been an ancestor of a night watcher because my mom and I are straight night owls.

Lawrence Dunning 50:27

I mean my parents too. It's so funny. Yeah, my parents, I have childhood memories of as soon as as I was old enough, I would get up, get ready for school, make my breakfast, and I would walk. It was a mile away. So I would just walk to school with my brother. My parents would still be asleep. They would wake up, both the kids are gone to school. They are such night owls. I got those jeans, so it's it's so funny.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 50:46

And my mom did too. So when we were, when I was younger, like in my 20s and 30s, she lived with me in Florida for a while. And we were, she was into line dancing. We'd go line dancing, and these clubs stay open until four. And that's me and my mom line dancing until four in the morning, getting in Denny's and going home and going to bed. And I was like, this is perfect. And then my dad was that guy, like, it's eight o'clock at night, everyone go to bed. Like no, but he told me that, and I think I had heard that before, and I read about that. I said, Yeah, I had to have come from like the stay up at night and protect everybody thing because and I've tried to do the you know, get up, go to bed and get up at six and do this and uh I've even tried for like six of a month at a time, and I just feel exhausted all the time.

Lawrence Dunning 51:28

Well, it's one imagine me, I worked as a for 10 years where I had to get up at five in the morning and I hated every single morning. And I remember the day I the day I left, I remember I slept until 10 and I was waking up in bed. I thought, oh my god, thank God I'm never gonna have to get up at five o'clock again for work. Because really, if you have a job that goes against your natural biorhythms, it's really, really difficult.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 51:49

So a hundred percent you and I were we were guarding the tribes in our ancestral uh true, because like I'm one of those people like deep down that has that that thing about me like listen, if you mess with me or one of my kids, I will murder you with my bare hands, like for real. And I'm not scared about stuff. And I've had a couple incidences where I've had to protect myself and and and really like crazy aggressive, like damn man, I'm I'm a badass too. So it's like, no, I'm at night, I'll use the weapons, I'll kill the people, I'll protect everybody. You guys just sleep, don't worry about it.

Lawrence Dunning 52:25

I love it.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 52:26

I am even now. My little grandkids are like they're like Mimi. Whatever someone picks on us, I said, You just tell me. I will have a talk with them. Don't worry about it, don't tell your mom just tell me. Mimi's got you. What's your favorite food?

Lawrence Dunning 52:40

Well, I just got back from Italy, Duane, and it was so incredible. I was having two entrees and two desserts every night, and the craziest thing was I came back, I was there for two weeks, I lost a pound because the food there, the quality, the ingredients, the sort of natural foods, and it was incredible. So I have to say, Italian food is just it's it's amazing.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 52:58

That was my favorite thing when I went to Europe with all my different kids, is in Italy, uh, because pasta and gluten and stuff like bother me here. I would eat it day and night, day and night, and not gain a pound. Just like I'm gonna live over here and eat the food.

Lawrence Dunning 53:13

Also, the thing the thing about Europe is you walk so much as well. It this maybe walk it's just normal. I I must have been doing you know tens of thousands of steps a day. And half the time, my my five-year-old is like, Daddy, I'm tired. Can you carry me? He's 50 pounds. So, and I know, I know, Duan, there's gonna be a time where he's not gonna ask me anymore. So it doesn't matter how much my arms are screaming, my low back hurts, I'll just keep carrying him until I can't anymore because it's just I know those memories are that I don't have along with with him asking me. So uh I I walked a lot and I burned a lot of calories, calories carrying you do, you do.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 53:46

And when we when I went to Europe with the kids, our backpack weighed 50 pounds.

Lawrence Dunning 53:50

Wow.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 53:54

I'm carrying around a 50-pound backpack, and and we're just eating and eating and eating. It's like uh and I came back, I was like, my pants are looser. This is amazing. You have a favorite book, it doesn't have to be like a business book, you just have like a favorite book.

Lawrence Dunning 54:08

I'm gonna say one that changed my life, and it is a long read, and I've given it to many people, and a lot of them struggled in the beginning, and then if they keep going, it it really impacted them. And it's Anne Rand's The Fountainhead. And it's actually a really great story. One of my old trading boss was a terrible boss. He was a terrible trader, but he was the boss of the company, and he and I were both in the 10-year bond option pit, and he would do these bad trades, lose money, go off for 20 minutes on a cigarette break, miss all the good trades. I would be there making all the money. Then he would come back and yell at me because either he didn't like what I was doing or he said it was good, I should have done more. He was just this awful, awful boss, made me hate my life, so I quit and started my trading company. But the one nice thing he did is he would see me on the trading pit. When it was slow, you would have to stay there because you never know when a good order could come in. So people would read the newspapers, they would just talk nonsense, and I would sit and read books. He would just sit see me sit in the pit, we're always reading books if it was slow. And he said, Oh, have you read The Fountainhead? And I said, No. He said, Have you heard of Anne Rand? I said, No, in England, she's not very popular. So I said, I've never heard of it. So he bought it for me, and the book really changed my life because I read it and then I I got motivated to quit the company and start my own company. Because the story about Anne Rand herself is she was a refugee from the Russian Revolution. She came to America and she was blown away coming from um communist Russia to capitalist America, all the opportunities that you had here. Um and she wrote a couple of big books. So Atlas Shrugged is her big her big one, but I think the fountain is much better. And the main hero of the story is a hero because he doesn't care about other people's opinion. He cares about living a life that's authentic to him and doing what he wants to do just for himself. It's like um like a philosophical novel. And it does take a bit of time to get into and it is dense reading, but it's it's I'm actually gonna reread it because it's been a while since I read it. But it it completely changed my life because it convinced me to start my own trading company, which gave me the freedom to follow my martial art dreams. And uh it's it's incredible how one book you read at the right time really can change your change your life. So um I read it.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 56:13

I've read so many books. I I can't uh gosh, I don't even know. I probably I just can't even imagine how many books I've read. There's so many.

Lawrence Dunning 56:20

So that's one, that's why you're so successful, is because you're always learning and thinking. I think it's harder and harder, like I mentioned earlier, with we're all losing our attention and our um the distraction of technology and cell phones and things like that. But I think if you take the time to really to read big books, good books, great books, books that have been around for decades, books that can change, change your life. There's nothing better, I think, that we can do with our time than than read widely and read great books. I think it every time I do it, it just enriches my soul and also it gives you so many different perspectives. Like even just reading that Rockefeller biography in Italy, I came back so inspired, I came back so motivated. I want to I want to motivate my friends. I just uh have a new appreciation for the opportunities we have in America. It just it's so I think it's so important to read. It's the lesson that I want to pass on to my son. Um it's it's incredible. So yeah.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 57:12

Yeah, my um daughter, Ayla. So I I had Ayla, and then when I married Bill, he had Kris and Will. So we blended to a family of five. And Ayla and I used to read every day, and she's 37 now. She still to this day reads a book a week.

Lawrence Dunning 57:27

Wow, that's that's incredible.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 57:29

That's a diehard reader.

Lawrence Dunning 57:31

And and and Dwan, I started keeping a note. So my parents, I had no TV in my house till I was 14. And my dad always said he wants me either reading or outside playing. And I think that was the best thing that I could have got is you get into a habit of reading. So I started the last maybe six, seven years, I started keeping a track on my my notes page and my phone, just how many books I read a year, and it it's right around a book a week. And I try to keep it that way. And it's actually less when I'm at home, and then I'll go on vacation and I'll kind of make up for it when I'm away. I feel like I read it.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 58:01

Because my grandkids love to read.

Lawrence Dunning 58:04

Oh, that's awesome.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 58:05

They can the first thing they do is like, we want to read, and they grab the books I've got for them, they'll love to read. Okay, I have one final question. Um, I want you to give us a word of wisdom, but just one single word.

Lawrence Dunning 58:21

Because it's impossible.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 58:23

All right, don't tell me about it. Well, hold on a minute. Let me write down. Okay, so here's what we do in the Dwanderful Universe is uh everyone knows that we ask my guests to give us a word of wisdom and then we write it on the sticky note and like put it up so we're brushing our teeth and doing our hair, we're saying gratitude, gratitude, gratitude, gratitude, gratitude. So then I want to know what gratitude means to you because it means different things to different people. So, what does gratitude mean specifically to you?

Lawrence Dunning 58:55

We have a chance to focus on what we want and what we don't have, or what we have, what our blessings are. And if you're grateful, you're focusing on what all the blessings you have, and it's fighting that natural urge we have. We're humans and we evolved, we survived because we're always striving for more. But that's the opposite of happiness. When you're striving for more, you're not happy. You think if I get X, Y, and Z, I'll be happy. But it's never like that. You're happy when you choose to be happy and you're grateful for what you have. And that's something the blessings of being a dad has really given me so much gratitude. And up until I became a parent at 42, up until then, I was always looking forward. And the last five years, I've really paused and taken stock of all the things I've done that I'm proud of and all the things I'm grateful for,

Gratitude, Wisdom, And Closing

Lawrence Dunning 59:39

and all the blessings, blessings I have. So I think that that word is is really powerful. And we all have that choice. Every morning we wake up and we can decide to be, you know, you can be grumpy and say, I wish I'd slept more, my lower back hurts, or you can say, Wow, I have another day on this earth with wonderful people to pursue my dreams and and be my best self. And I really believe that. And it's it's it's something that I've realized. I wish I'd if I could have talked to my 25-year-old self, I wish I could have given him some to tell him to be grateful for what you have. You know, you have you for the time.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 1:00:08

You can talk to your 25-year-old self because you have a five-year-old child.

Lawrence Dunning 1:00:12

Oh, and he's a mini me.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 1:00:14

He's so on, he's keep in mind, he's my best buddy. Because you're raising him now.

Lawrence Dunning 1:00:22

Well, that I think that's the most beautiful thing about parenthood is all the effort you spent trying to improve yourself makes you a wiser parent and hopefully one day a wiser grandparent. And I think that's one of the most beautiful realizations that I just had recently is is that you you get the wisdom to pass on to the next generation.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 1:00:38

When you get to the grandparent stage, let me tell you, you lose your mind over your grandkids. You're just like, I tell my kids, I was like, listen, if I had all four grandkids on this arm and you guys here, I was hanging up a bridge, I'd drop you guys like a sack of potatoes. I'm giving these babies. That's all I too small.

Lawrence Dunning 1:00:56

That's too funny.

Dwan Bent-Twyford 1:00:58

That's funny. All right, listen, I want to thank you for uh being on here today. You're just such a great guest. And for you guys that listened and you liked it, um, it's so important that you subscribe and you follow, and maybe write a little, like, you know, Duan and uh Lawrence for Awesome today, and leave a five-star review because I'm so close. I'm in the top 100 entrepreneurship. And I just I just want to be number one now. So that's like a thing I'm looking forward to. But I don't need to be number one forever. I'm already in the top 100. I'm so happy where I'm at. But it would be really neat to be number one one day. Have a picture and I'll frame that baby. Help me reach my personal goal. And we'll be back next week. Same bat time, same bat channel. And remember that the truth is in the red letter. So we'll see you next week. Thank you, honey. You were so great. Ciao, everybody. Make it a good week.