Is Schisandra Worth Trying? with Melissa Young, MD

Traditional Chinese medicine has long valued the treatment potential of schisandra – and now it’s gaining in popularity as a wellness supplement. So what could these berries do for you? Dr. Melissa Young, a functional medicine specialist, has your answer.

Transcript

John Horton:

Hey there, and welcome to another Health Essentials Podcast. I'm John Horton, your host.

Explorers spent centuries roaming the earth on an elusive quest to find the fountain of youth. But instead of looking for a mythical spring, perhaps they should have been searching for schisandra berries. It's said that this purple-red fruit can delay the aging process while giving you a little extra pep in your step. It's also touted as being good for your heart, lungs and a few other important body parts. No wonder why it's growing in popularity as a supplement.

But can schisandra really do all of that? To answer these sorts of questions, we turn to functional medicine specialist Melissa Young. She's one of the many experts at Cleveland Clinic who pop into our weekly podcast to separate fact from fiction regarding health trends. So with that, let's start our own exploration to find the truth about schisandra berries.

Dr. Young. I'm so glad to have you back on the podcast. Make sure to get your guest card punched. I'm pretty sure you're close to earning a free cup of coffee by now.

Dr. Melissa Young:

I look forward to that cup of coffee, but thank you so much for having me back. We always have a good time.

John Horton:

We do. So I want to start with a confession here. I had never heard of schisandra berries until it came up during our podcast topic meeting, and I'm guessing a lot of people may be unfamiliar with it. These aren't exactly sitting in the produce aisle next to the grapes. So given that, can you give us a bit of a background on these berries to just get us started?

Dr. Melissa Young:

Absolutely, and it's interesting, this is not necessarily an herb I use every day in my practice, but it's certainly an herb that is interesting and I use, say, often enough. And it comes from a fruit-bearing vine that's typically not used for food, but the dried fruit is used medicinally. It's been used medicinally in Asia and Russia for many years and has, I think, very interesting health properties. 

We could talk about how it's used primarily in, say, traditional Chinese medicine. It's used more and more in Western medicine, but its history is definitely in Asia and Russia. So it's interesting in that it's one of those adaptogenic herbs that we may have talked about in the past that helps moderate the stress response and can have a lot of other benefits, which certainly we can talk about.

John Horton:

Well, we definitely will get into that. I have to say one thing that kind of blew my mind when I was reading about these berries was that they have … they're described as having five different tastes: sweet, salty, bitter, pungent and sour. It is just hard to wrap my head around all of that being in one little berry.

Dr. Melissa Young:

Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting, traditional Chinese medicine is a different form of medicine that's been used over 2,000 years, but they have a different system of how they approach the body and medicine. And I've got some notes, but it was interesting — not only does that have — it's called the five-taste fruit, as you were saying — but it corresponds to the five different phases in traditional medicine with each of those tastes. So wood, fire, earth, metal and water. So it's unique. We think about even East Indian Ayurvedic medicine, they look at how important those five tastes are in our foods and nourishing the body. So it's interesting that this particular one has all of those tastes that maybe help with its medicinal properties

John Horton:

That totally taught me something I had never heard before. It's really fascinating that these individual tastes are associated with potential health benefits if you eat them.

Dr. Melissa Young:

Yes.

John Horton:

So here I'm just eating stuff and not even thinking about that.

Dr. Melissa Young:

Well, one quick aside, which I found so interesting in Ayurveda and traditional Chinese medicine, when we think about sweet taste here in the West, we think about sugar and sweets and cakes and cookies, but in their philosophy, the sweet taste is also coming from meat and some of the things that in the West we eat all the time that we're not realizing may be driving some of that sort of sweet response in the body. So we have so much to learn from these other ways of medicine.

John Horton:

When you get into those traditional medicines, it's fascinating how they just use everything around us in the world is sort of a little form of treatment and see how it can potentially benefit your body.

Dr. Melissa Young:

Yes, it's fascinating, really.

John Horton:

Well, let's start breaking down some of the claims connected to schisandra berries with whether they can delay the aging process, which I'm sure all of us would like to do. So is this really the berry of youth?

Dr. Melissa Young:

I'm not sure it's the berry of youth and in terms of longevity, but it is interesting in that two of its main properties, or three — so anti-inflammatory benefits, calming free radical damage in the body — though I think about free radicals and oxidative stress in the body is aging and rusting. So perhaps secondarily, longevity, but it helps prevent cellular damage and then, it's just helping with that stress response. So I don't think it's the fountain of youth or helpful in longevity, but it has elements in how it works to calm some of that cellular damage that comes from not only aging and metabolism, but lots of other things like exposures to environmental toxicants.

John Horton:

These discussions … I'm always amazed by how what we eat can lead to this inflammation in our body that we don't even think about because it's nothing you can see or even really maybe feel necessarily, but it's all stuff that impacts how your body's functioning and how all the systems are working. And it seems like you eat the right things, you can really tamp that down.

Dr. Melissa Young:

Absolutely, and food is medicine. What we choose to eat, what we choose not to eat actually turns on and off genes in the body. So if we choose to eat anti-inflammatory foods, foods that are high in antioxidants, we can turn on those genes that calm inflammation. But then, if we're going to McDonald's, eating a lot of sugar, the opposite, we can turn on those genes for inflammation.

John Horton:

Now, I saw where schisandra berries were also connected to maybe improving heart health, and I'm guessing that that has to also do with its ability to maybe limit inflammation.

Dr. Melissa Young:

Yes. So I think that moderation of what we call “oxidative stress,” calming inflammation in the body, moderating the free radical process, which causes cellular damage, is one of the main ways. It has heart-protective effects, liver-protective effects, the lung effects. It also seems to really help the endocrine system, which are hormones. So that's one of the ways that it's moderating its benefits in the body.

John Horton:

And all of this has to do with what it's doing on a cellular level? I mean, with it helping the lungs and the liver and things like that?

Dr. Melissa Young:

So on a cellular level, as well as with that adaptogenic benefit of calming and moderating that stress response, it appears, as well, to help with physical and emotional resilience. And those are the things that I'm really … when I'm using this herb, I'm thinking about that. We're talking about how many of these things we discuss have a lot of truth behind it. There are some studies that show benefit and even get into the nitty-gritty of the biochemistry, but I think we always have to keep in mind ... like here … schisandra is used really extensively in traditional Chinese medicine in Asia, but that's a whole system of medicine. They're not going to be using one herb or taking the so-called active ingredient out of that herb and using it in a capsule. They're going to be using it in combination with their whole system of medicine and other herbs. In the West, we try to distill it down to one active ingredient and that's where I think there are some studies really showing some interesting things related to liver protective effects, cardiac protective effects. But we're not going to use it that way in the United States. But it's important to know that there are some studies showing those benefits.

John Horton:

And I was going to ask you about that with the scientific research because we do always like to dive into that a little bit.

Dr. Melissa Young:

Yes.

John Horton:

It sounds like there's some evidence that it may have a beneficial effect, but like you were saying, it's nothing that's going to be a substitute for your heart medication or something like that.

Dr. Melissa Young:

Absolutely. So I think that looking at it very differently in the West, this will be used as a complement to, and for my use, a benefit to calming the stress response, maybe having a minor benefit from a liver-protective effect or heart-protective effect, but that's not how I'm using it. That may be how they use it in traditional Chinese medicine, but we're not doing that here. So yes, it is complementary and I think that's how we can utilize its best benefits.

John Horton:

So you mentioned how you use it — what would you recommend it for?

Dr. Melissa Young:

So I recommend it as one of many adaptogenic herbs I use to help people moderate the stress response, and adaptogens are so unique in that in the person who has lots of stress and we need to calm that, it can help calm the stress response in those who may have had stress for a very long time and they're depleted. It may increase their energy and generally help people with more resilience. But I tend to use these in combination. So you may have heard of other adaptogens like ashwagandha and rhodiola, holy basil. So I tend to use blends and not necessarily one herb at a time.

John Horton:

Now, I saw where schisandra was also sometimes recommended as a way to help with depression. I'm guessing that kind of fits into exactly what you were just talking about with the stressors.

Dr. Melissa Young:

Yes.

John Horton:

Maybe boosting energy levels, things like, like-

Dr. Melissa Young:

…that. Yes, and certainly I would not use this as a treatment for depression, but say, lower mood or mood changes related to chronic stress, maybe it's helpful or in conjunction with conventional treatments, but depression's not top of my list when I think about schisandra.

John Horton:

OK. Also, I saw it linked to maybe with delaying the onset of Alzheimer's as something people could try if you're just hoping to keep that at bay a little bit. Is there any truth to that or does that just kind of go back to the whole thing we were talking about with the inflammation and just the cellular protection it might provide?

Dr. Melissa Young:

I think there are some interesting studies about possible benefits in neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's. If someone is concerned about that — and I don't think we have enough information to say it's going to delay onset. For things like people who have Alzheimer's, people who have liver disease, because this is used extensively in China as a hepato, or liver-protective treatment, I would want people to see a traditional Chinese medicine herbalist, especially one like we have a Cleveland Clinic who is working in a medical setting who knows how to use this herb or combination of herbs toward really a medical condition. If someone has a true medical condition, like we've been discussing, just having schisandra tea or taking schisandra capsules may not have that long-term benefit that we're hoping for.

John Horton:

I was really surprised by it had five different tastes, which seemed like a lot, and it seems like it is helping even more than that. It makes that list of five seem small. It's helping your heart, your lungs, your brain, liver. It just kind of goes on and on. So with those maybe potential goods that we're getting out of schisandra, are there any risks to taking it?

Dr. Melissa Young:

So in general, actually, it's tolerated very well. I think some of the key benefits are … for some people, especially in higher doses, it might cause reflux. So if you have ulcers or GERD, chronic reflux, it wouldn't be something I would recommend. Like many herbs, it actually can impact how medications or pharmaceuticals are metabolized in the body. And so if you are taking medications and especially more serious medications, Coumadin®, blood thinners, immunosuppressants, you would not want to take this on your own. You would want to talk to your doctor. Again, if you are working with a traditional Chinese medicine herbalist who's trained and certified. But those are the main sort of cautions. Of course, we don't want to use these herbs in pregnancy or breastfeeding. So making sure if you're taking medicines, probably top of the list, really key is to check with your doctors, but otherwise, very well tolerated, generally quite safe.

John Horton:

So if someone wants to try schisandra, how can they go about doing it?

Dr. Melissa Young:

Sure. I think about two main ways. So I like it as a tea, either alone or in a blend. Can we talk about brand names?

John Horton:

Yeah, yeah. I don't think I've ever seen schisandra tea out there. Doesn't seem like a Lipton® special. 

Dr. Melissa Young:

It is not a Lipton special. There's a wonderful company that I use, Rashi Tea®, R-A-S-H-I, that has some of these herbal blends and many green teas and things like that. So they have some blends, they have it alone. So brewing a lovely cup of tea can be a nice way to incorporate that into your day. I use it personally that way. But then also, there's herbals where these adaptogenic blends where I combine those adaptogens we were talking about. Schisandra's one of those. So two very reputable companies is Gaia Herbs®, and that's G-A-I-A, and Herb Farm®. Probably Gaia's one of my favorites.

It's so important generally, and in the United States, where supplements are not regulated in the same way as pharmaceuticals, that you use reputable companies and that they do independent testing. There can be so many contaminants in products or not even having the active ingredient, but Gaia Herbs has a couple different adaptogenic blends that you can use to moderate the stress response if you're looking for a little more resilience and you're under stress. So that's how I use it.

John Horton:

Yeah. When you're talking about those blends, are those in a supplement form or is that like tea? Or are you actually getting pieces, parts you're putting together in something?

Dr. Melissa Young:

So if you're working with a traditional Chinese medicine provider, you might actually get that, but the supplements I'm using are primarily capsules. I think it's the easiest way for us Westerners. We're used to pills. But there are tinctures. I know Herb Farm has a tincture where it's a standardized extract that you can put in some water. Not everyone loves those. They can have strong tastes. But either capsules, tinctures. But what I love about the teas is it'll have a medicinal quality, but maybe not quite as strong as a pill and you'll get benefits, but we don't have to worry about those side effects.

John Horton:

It does sound like this is the sort of thing you need to go and search out. You're not just going to find it on a random shelf.

Dr. Melissa Young:

I agree with you. I agree with you. Though it's a wonderful herb that really has some of that moderating the stress response benefit, and so many of my patients who are so well-educated are always looking for these wonderful cutting-edge and blends of herbs and seeing what those benefits might be.

John Horton:

Let's talk about that a little bit. Whenever you're on here, I feel like we talk about a whole host of wellness supplements that offer this just kind of wow-inspiring list of potential health benefits. So whether you're looking at schisandra or something else, what's the best approach you should take when deciding whether these might work for you and you should try?

Dr. Melissa Young:

So I think that having the guidance of your doctor is really helpful. Your primary care doc may not have much background in these types of things, but your integrative and functional medicine physicians usually are very well-versed. And just because it's on a health food store shelf and it's natural does not mean it's safe or safe for you, a particular person. These things can interact with medications, other herbs. I do like the teas because there's going to be a safer threshold there, but I think it's so important to check with your physician because there's just this misunderstanding that if it's natural, it's safe.

John Horton:

And I loved that you made that point. I do think that that word, touting something as being “natural,” is kind of used to make you feel like it's safe.

Dr. Melissa Young:

Yes.

John Horton:

And that's not necessarily true. There's a lot of things in the natural world that are not good for us.

Dr. Melissa Young:

Cyanide is natural, it is not safe.

John Horton:

So in regard to schisandra, we can wrap things up here.

Dr. Melissa Young:

Sure.

John Horton:

What's the one thing you'd want folks to take away from our discussion if they're interested in using it or even thinking about giving it a try?

Dr. Melissa Young:

Sure. So for those people, and again, many of my patients looking … how do they support moderation of the stress response? I think, schisandra in a blend of adaptogenic herbs that we've decided for them is appropriate and safe and would be something to try.

Remember, it's an herb, so you want to use it, say, for specific period of time, one to three months. You don't want to use that forever. Generally, though, if you want to use the tea, I think that has a safer therapeutic window. Also, we're always going to come back to the stress response. Brewing a lovely cup of tea, sitting down, enjoying that is also going to have benefit and help you additively, to help with the stress response.

John Horton:

Every time you're on, it makes me want to reassess how I'm doing a whole bunch of things in my day and I'm always left with the value of just taking some time and enjoying something as simple as brewing a cup of tea and just taking in that moment and letting the stress levels go down with it.

Dr. Melissa Young:

We are in such a busy go-go world, we forget how powerful it is just to take a few minutes for ourselves. And we've talked about meditation and breath work, which are so powerful, but really, five minutes just being quiet. Maybe that cup of tea has health benefits, and I think, just improves how we feel in our quality of life.

John Horton:

Well, Dr. Young, I always appreciate when you take a few minutes with us to give us … and like I said, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show and just always taking us down on a wild, fascinating journey. We learn about all these new things.

Dr. Melissa Young:

Oh, it's always a pleasure. Thank you so much.

John Horton:

There's some science behind claims touting the benefits of schisandra berries, but it's best to approach the supplement with caution and a dash of realism. While it may help with some health issues, it's not a substitute for medications or anywhere close to a true fountain of youth.

If you liked what you heard today, please hit the subscribe button and leave a comment to share your thoughts. Till next time, be well.

Speaker 3:

Thank you for listening to Health Essentials, brought to you by Cleveland Clinic and Cleveland Clinic Children's. To make sure you never miss an episode, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts or visit clevelandclinic.org/hepodcast. This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace the advice of your own physician.