Episode 18: The Future of Regulations in Banking: The Interchange Fee Prohibition Act

Randy Hultgren, President & CEO of the Illinois Bankers Association joins Virginia Heyburn to discuss the implications of the recently passed Interchange Fee Prohibition Act in Illinois, its broader national impact, and the importance of maintaining a level playing field and fair regulation for financial institutions. 

Transcript

Virginia Heyburn (00:02.774) 

Hello and welcome back to another episode of FinTech Unleashed. My name is Virginia Habern. I'm the Director of Research, Insights and Advocacy at EngageFI. And today I'm very excited to be joined by Randy Holtgren. He's the President and CEO of the Illinois Bankers Association. And on today's episode, we're going to dive into the implications of the recently passed Interchange Fee Prohibition Act in Illinois that restricts interchange fees on sales tax and tips. 

Illinois is the first state to move in this direction. Other states are watching closely. They're contemplating their own action. And across the board, the financial services industry is very much opposed to this new legislation. And today we're going to get into why that is. I'm thrilled that Randy's joining us to give us deeper insight into what this all means to banks in Illinois and in fact to financial institutions, both banks and credit unions all across the United States. 

Virginia Heyburn (01:02.088) 

Randy, welcome. 

Randy Hultgren (01:04.385) 

Thank you, Virginia. So good to be with you. Thanks for inviting me. 

Virginia Heyburn (01:06.974) 

Yes, of course. You're really in the middle of this interchange storm. And we're so pleased to have you on our podcast today. Because of it, you have this unique insight. Can you introduce yourself? Tell us about yourself and then also tell us about the Illinois Bankers Association. 

Randy Hultgren (01:23.805) 

to thank you. Yes, my name is Randy Hopgren. I am privileged to be president and CEO of the Illinois Bankers Association. I have been with the Illinois Bankers Association now for a little over four years and it's just been such a privilege to be a part of this great organization fighting for wonderful community financial institutions that love helping people make their dreams come true. It's really what banking is all about. It's even part of my own personal story. I grew up in a family funeral home. 

And it was a community banker back in the 70s that made it possible for my family to be able to purchase that business. And it changed the trajectory of my life. Certainly don't believe I'd be serving in my current role with the Illinois Bankers Association, but also many other things that I've had the privilege of doing. I had great privilege of serving in elected office for 24 years, served on the county level for four years, served in our state legislature for 12 years, both eight years in the House, four years in the Senate. 

and then got to serve for eight years out in United States House of Representatives, out in United States Congress. So love that I got to do that. And all of that, again, ties back to a community banker who saw something in my parents to be able to give them this opportunity to purchase this family business, this family funeral home that still our family runs. The Illinois Bankers Association is just a great organization. It's been around since 1891. 

So 133 years. And it's one of the largest banking associations in the country because Illinois is still one of the largest banking states in the country. It really is between Illinois and Texas. Kind goes back and forth. We basically have about 408 banks in Illinois right now, and the vast majority of them are members of the Illinois Bankers Association. It's not something they have to be a member of, but they choose to be a member of ours. 

The Illinois Bankers Association has made up about 25 or 26 wonderful people who love working for our banks. And we do a lot of advocacy work for them. So we've got some great government relations folks that work certainly in Washington and in Springfield and also in Chicago. We're really the only banking association working in Chicago recognizing that it's important what happens there and the decisions that there that are made. We also do a lot of education for banking. 

Randy Hultgren (03:46.823) 

and put on literally hundreds of education programs every single year to prepare and train up bankers for the future. We also love to come alongside and help with some of the challenges that banks face with regulatory and compliance issues. So we've got some great attorneys who work for the Illinois Bankers Association on staff. I would argue some of the best banking attorneys in the country work for us. And then we also help 

Robin L Lane (04:12.905) 

you 

Randy Hultgren (04:13.409) 

love making connections for our bankers with providers, with companies out there that want to help and provide services there for our great banks. And so together, this is what the Illinois Bankers Association is all about. And it's my privilege to help lead this effort with a great team that we've got. 

Virginia Heyburn (04:34.442) 

Thank you, that's a great resume. I'm just gonna pause right here, Lucy, you can cut this, but Robin, if you could go on mute. 

Virginia Heyburn (04:52.928) 

Can we cut that out, Lucy, or do we have to go back? 

Robin L Lane (04:57.445) 

Okay, no problem. That's no problem at all. 

Randy Hultgren (04:58.071) 

in GoVelog. 

Robin L Lane (05:06.846) 

I don't want that. 

Virginia Heyburn (05:11.114) 

We can start over. 

Robin L Lane (05:13.137) 

jump off. fine. Bendy's great. 

Robin L Lane (05:32.787) 

No I don't show up. I got it. No problem. Okay, no problem. 

Randy Hultgren (05:35.885) 

Otherwise, Robin, we can talk to you afterwards. Maybe that seems interesting. And then we'll make it just clean. 

Robin L Lane (05:40.477) 

Thank you for letting me know. 

Virginia Heyburn (05:43.786) 

No problem. So Lucy, do you redo or do you think you can cut that out? 

Randy Hultgren (05:58.251) 

Yeah. I love talking about myself, so just kidding. Kidding, I'm kidding. No, no. 

Virginia Heyburn (06:17.034) 

Three, two, one. Welcome, Randy. 

Randy Hultgren (06:23.137) 

Thank you, Virginia. So good to be with you. Thanks for the invitation to be able to join the podcast today. 

Virginia Heyburn (06:27.392) 

Fantastic. Well, you're really in the middle of this interchange storm. You have some very unique insights on this topic. We're so pleased to have you. Can you just introduce yourself? Tell us about yourself. Tell us about the Illinois Bankers Association. 

Randy Hultgren (06:41.965) 

I'd be happy to. My name is Randy Holtgren. It's been a great honor and privilege of mine to serve as president and CEO of the Illinois Bankers Association. been in this role for a little over four years and just love working for the great banks of Illinois. And the Illinois Bankers Association is a really unique association. started in 1891. It was formed by banks in Illinois back in that time. A few of those banks are still around, still members of ours. But 

proud of our 133 years of serving banks, fighting for banks, coming alongside and helping them in any way that we can. My background is that I worked in banking. I'm an attorney, but also had a privilege of serving as an elected official for 24 years, served on the local level on the county board up in DuPage County, Illinois, suburbs of Chicago for four years, then served in our state legislature for 12 years, eight in the Illinois House and four in the Illinois Senate. 

and then eight years out in United States Congress, part of the United States House of Representatives. And through that, had a wonderful chance to work closely with the Illinois Bankers Association, both on the state level and the federal level, never knowing that I'd have the opportunity one day to work with the Illinois Bankers Association. My service out in Washington was between 2010 and 2018. And then I worked for a large bank in Chicago, Wind Trust, for a year before getting hired with the Illinois Bankers Association. 

Love this work. My passion really goes back to growing up as a kid and seeing that my own life was impacted by a community banker. My parents had the dream of owning their own business, a family funeral home in Wheaton, Illinois. And it was a community banker that made it possible for my mom and dad and our family to be able to purchase that funeral home. And it absolutely changed the trajectory of my life. So I owe so much to banking and I love each day getting up and having the privilege of working for banks who 

Really, by definition, their job is to help people make their dreams come true. And they certainly did it for me and my family, but they continue to do it. But I also have become so aware over these last years that no industry is more regulated than banking. And it is a challenge and they need help. And it's what the IBA loves to do. So we've got wonderful advocacy team. about 25 people total at the IBA, but we've got a group that works in advocacy working in Washington. 

Randy Hultgren (09:07.135) 

in Springfield and also in Chicago, trying to promote good policy and fight back bad policy. We also have some wonderful banking attorneys who help our banks deal with regulatory and compliance issues. We also put on literally hundreds of education programs each year for our banks, training up bankers to be able to accomplish the work that they want to accomplish, but also to grow in their careers. And then we also love connecting our bankers with 

other providers that can provide solutions for them that help solve challenges that they're facing. So all of that together, the Illinois Bankers Association is just has a great history, but also think has a very important future. And as we're talking about the topic of the day is exactly the reason why it makes sense for an association like the Illinois Bankers Association to exist. 

Virginia Heyburn (09:59.102) 

And strong community banks make strong communities. And that's really what we're talking about here today. Your state, the Illinois banking industry, it's making big news. Everybody's paying attention to it right now, not just banks, credit unions as well. It's the matter of the Interchange Fee Prohibition Act. This war on interchange, if we can call it that, it's a real challenge for banks in your state. Let's start by... 

just getting a better lay of the land, what is the Interchange Feed Prohibition Act in Illinois? 

Randy Hultgren (10:31.511) 

Yeah, it sounds confusing and we don't want it to be, but credit cards are a really important part of our lives, credit and debit cards, and really proud of the role that banks play in making this a safe, easy, incredibly efficient process for people to be able to purchase items and to pay for items. And yet there's a cost to be able to provide that service. 

protect against fraud, to provide the technology, to make sure that there's that ease of transfer. All of that involved is something that the banks are responsible for and the credit card servicers are responsible for. And so there's a very small amount of a purchase that goes to cover the expenses of handling that transaction. And so that is what an interchange fee is or a swipe fee, they sometimes call it. But 

There was action in Illinois just a couple of months ago, and it was really a push by the retail merchants here in Illinois that would make it so that banks could no longer get paid for providing this service of credit card transactions when it has as far as the sales tax part of it or any type of tip or gratuity part of it. So in other words, it's prohibiting receiving compensation for. 

the services that the bank provides for safety and security, fighting against fraud, making sure that the latest technology is all included in this for the sales tax part of it or the gratuity part of it. This was passed last minute, literally in the last 48 hours of the legislative session. It was passed with the bare minimum of votes, so it barely passed. But again, this is something that has been tried in many other states. Never has it passed. It's always been seen by those legislatures that 

This is a bad idea and this is something that shouldn't go forward. But unfortunately here in Illinois, it did go forward. this was passed end of May, signed by the governor and we're looking at it. We've been spending a lot of time trying to find out best ways to respond to this new legislation that passed that ultimately is going to harm consumers and small retailers. This was there's really no justification for this law. 

Randy Hultgren (12:51.989) 

other than to benefit the biggest of the big box retailers. Those are the ones who would benefit from it. But mom and pop restaurants, grocery stores, hardware stores, all of them. This will be a cost. This will be something that they're going to have to put more people on. And it will be absolutely incredible cost in banking. Community banks, especially the smaller the bank, the more it's going to cost just because they don't have the resources. They're going to have to pull people away from customer service or other things to be able to deal with the paperwork and challenge. 

of implementation of this new law, which again, absolutely does nothing of benefit for the state of Illinois. There's no benefit that comes to the state taxpayers in this. Only what we would argue is harm. The only benefit is for those biggest of box stores. anyhow, that's what passed. It was the Interchange Fee Prohibition Act that passed in Illinois. 

Virginia Heyburn (13:44.01) 

And so what I'm hearing you say is that the math is not math -ing. So the justification for all of this is simply not there. Let's break it down a little bit. So let's talk, I think I heard you say the merchants really don't benefit, the big ones do, but the smaller ones, there's gonna be a cost to implement this. You don't just go day one to day two and everything works. 

Randy Hultgren (14:05.005) 

Absolutely. You know, there's there's a lot of equipment, there's software, there's other things that are in place already. And it's there's no definition of how how this would be broken out. It's very complex. Literally, there's hundreds of different taxing bodies in Illinois with different taxing rates. There's also even within the same taxing district, different rates for different products. So. 

A loaf of bread is different from a bag of Cheetos, which is different from a six pack of beer, which is different from a pack of cigarettes. And so it's incredibly confusing and complex, like literally getting into the shopping cart of somebody having to separate out which tax rate gets charged which and how that all gets paid or doesn't get paid. And fundamentally, this is just contrary to who we are as a nation, the ability to contract, the ability to get paid for a service. 

And this service, the only reason the sales tax is there or the gratuity is there is because of the core product or service that was being paid for. So it's not a separate transaction and it's all lumped together. And yet somehow they're trying to separate this out and it will be so costly, so complex and ultimately bad for consumers. And going back to it, that this is a system that people like. You know, I see from my own family that literally in a week we've got many 

opportunities. If we want a different credit card, a new credit card, a different program, there's so many opportunities and options out there for people. There's great competition that's there and available. And also there's benefits that come with it. Literally just this morning, happened to wake up early, was doing just looking at some travel that we're going to have as a family later on this year, looking at the miles that I have on one of my credit cards. And there's a special deal going on using miles to get a discount. It's awesome. 

But there's a real threat that this could go away for Illinois consumers. And that's why airlines industry is very opposed to this as well, is they might have to have different cards or programs that are not as good for Illinois residents that might be better in other places. So a real concern with something that is working, that is very competitive right now, tons of options for consumers and ultimately is going to come back and hurt consumers. 

Virginia Heyburn (16:24.874) 

Yes, and that's such an important point because, you know, really the bottom line is you take that revenue away from the banks. They're not going to be able to afford to host these rewards programs. And that brings up, I think, a reference to the Durbin Amendment, right? You know, we've been around these houses before, so to speak, several years ago when we lost the rewards on the debit cards. 

Randy Hultgren (16:46.989) 

You're absolutely right. People maybe need to think back and remember that there were all kinds of programs and benefits that came with debit card usage. And when the Durbin Amendment was presented in much the same way as this was, it was literally last minute, thrown in, no debate, very little discussion, and shoved through back with Dodd -Frank when that was passed. 

Virginia Heyburn (17:14.315) 

Mm 

Randy Hultgren (17:14.401) 

But it was promised that this would not have an impact on people, on consumers, on small businesses, on small banks. It couldn't be further from the truth. It's been a very negative impact on consumers. They've lost the benefits with debit cards that they used to get. They've lost a lot of other free things that came along with the benefit of debit cards, free checking and other things that are not at the same level that they were at one point. And again, really no 

justification for it. Prices have not gone down. Those big box stores have not given a rebate back to consumers. If anything, they're just lining their pockets more from that. And our fear is the same exact thing is happening with this interchange prohibition act here in Illinois. 

Virginia Heyburn (18:03.41) 

So the merchants really aren't winning, save the very largest. The banks are losing in all of this and the consumer is not winning because let's, know, lest we think that it's only the wealthy families that are going to be losing their travel privileges, let's remember that a lot of families in this country, they really rely on rewards to make ends meet. 

Randy Hultgren (18:27.499) 

Absolutely true. And younger people, I think, are even more focused on this. My wife and I have four kids, but one just graduated from college, one halfway through college. But this is an important part for them, building up their own understanding credit, understanding debt, really being careful with that, being very focused on how their credit rating is even at a young age, but then also being aware that 

hey, there's another benefit that comes along of some travel that they would like to do. It's amazing. My college graduate son, how many weddings he has to go to and things like that, and just planning out how am going to pay for it with a new job, just new apartment, all this stuff. But it's really with some of his credit card miles that he's able to do it. But it's a fear that that gets taken away, that they lose that. 

Virginia Heyburn (19:17.546) 

Yes, and for parents, can't tell you how many flights I paid with points for the kids to come home to visit, right? It's meaningful. It absolutely is meaningful. then, know, years after Durban, we know where this is going. It's bad history repeating itself. The broader financial services industry is taking action. And this is, a relatively recent development where not only is the Illinois Bankers Association 

Randy Hultgren (19:24.151) 

Yes, exactly. 

Virginia Heyburn (19:46.44) 

opposing this act in the courts, but joined by the American Bankers Association, joined by the credit union equivalents as well. You've got the credit union league in Illinois, you've got America's credit unions all banding together to oppose. Tell us more about it because I know you're involved too. 

Randy Hultgren (20:07.127) 

Yes, so we've from the first moment we've heard about this, we just knew this was a bad idea that if we would have had just even a little bit more time to have hearings, to have debate, have the process work fully, we don't think it would have happened. But it really was snuck in as just a benefit that was thrown to the retail merchants with no benefit to the state or no benefit to consumers because there was a misunderstanding there. 

But grateful of wonderful team of others who love serving their members, their customers. so we from really day one worked with the Illinois Credit Unions on this, the American Credit Unions and also the American Bankers Association. As we've talked about, there's other states that look at this and are making determinations if they might do something in the same way. So this is really important across the country. 

One of the things I'm most proud of with certainly with working with the Illinois Credit Unions, but also with our members is level banks at all different levels have stepped up to talk about how this is damaging to them. There's declarations that they've made of kind of playing out the cost of complying with this, of having to hire new people, of having to fill out all of this new paperwork, having all this new software. 

It's huge and we don't even know. We're looking at the tip of the iceberg on this. It's so much bigger than this. Also, the effective date was set for January of 2025, which is going to come very quickly. And so a great concern of how much this is going to cost in the next months to ramp up and gear up for. And yet we we are just convinced that this is a violation of federal law, that this is not constitutionally sustainable, that there are federal laws that preempt the state law. 

And yet the state of Illinois, by passing this, ignored that fact. so the step that we've taken is we have filed a lawsuit here in Illinois in the Seventh Circuit Federal Court in Northern Illinois, a federal district there, and worked with the American Bankers Association, the American Credit Unions, and also the Illinois Credit Unions. 

Randy Hultgren (22:30.689) 

together as plaintiffs, but also recognizing that it's from the smallest financial institution to the larger financial institutions. This isn't just limited. Every financial institution is concerned about this, and they're all represented in the filing and in the declarations of the impact and cost and damage that's going to come not only to banks, but to their customers and consumers who are going to lose out if this law is allowed to stand. 

Virginia Heyburn (22:58.506) 

And there's certainly an opportunity to really educate consumers because so often this is painted as protection of the consumer. Once consumers realize that this is really not going to benefit them, but instead is going to harm them in a meaningful way, I think the equation changes. But Randy, you had mentioned Illinois going first. Is it state? it a federal issue? Let's talk about the Credit Card Competition Act. 

because there are some elements of the Credit Card Competition Act that if passed could in some measure apply some of these interchange restrictions across the board. What do you say to that? 

Randy Hultgren (23:38.925) 

Well, we're very concerned about the credit card competition act. Again, I think it's such a false name. Boy, there is so much competition already out there among credit cards, among providers, among different benefits that come with different credit cards. It is literally thousands of different options that consumers have, which is fantastic. But again, this is something that just a couple of retail merchants really want to go after to have more control and to 

reap more benefit from these processes, which again is so surprising to me where I feel like so much of their business is benefited by the ease of people being able to purchase with credit cards. It opens up so much more opportunity to be able for people to be able to plan and purchase and know their security in that taking away the threat and danger of cash transactions that is just not a great safe. 

not a safe way really of transacting large dollar amounts of business. So we feel like whether it's the Durbin Amendment 2 .0 that forces other entities to come in to provide certain services, arguably we would say those entities don't even exist. So what the Durbin Amendment 2 .0 is looking for isn't even available. And again, they're just missing the point that people are good consumers no matter what 

level they're at, whether they're new in their career, whether they're growing in their career, whatever income level. People study this and see this as an important value for them of the right credit card with the right benefits for them. And yet our fear is whether it's Durbin 2 .0 or whether it's the Interchange Prohibition Act here in Illinois, that ultimately these are going to take away options from consumers and delay processes. 

One of the things we're still working through with our legislation is it sounds like transactions will have to remain open for a long time, maybe seven months. Sometimes you see on your credit card statement pending for a day or two. You when you rent a car or go to a hotel, they might have a pending charge just until you check out and everything is clear. There could be pending for months. I mean, it might be hundreds and hundreds of pending items on your credit card statement. Incredibly confusing. Might have to be multiple swipes. We don't know. 

Randy Hultgren (26:02.061) 

You know, if it has different rates of different items that a person purchases, they might have to swipe multiple times. Super confusing. Very frustrating, I think, for consumers with no benefit there. And I would argue the same thing for the Durbin Amendment 2 .0, the Credit Card Competition Act. There's already competition there. People already like their programs. We saw the damage that was done to debit card programs, as you mentioned. We fear the same thing would happen. 

with credit card programs that people really appreciate and enjoy and want and need. 

Virginia Heyburn (26:36.966) 

And Randy, that got me thinking about the question that I often get when I'm talking to at different conferences. I often hear, well, you the banks are doing just fine. They're going to be losing a little bit of revenue. What's the big deal? It is a big deal. Financial institutions are experiencing a revenue recession. It's not just about interchange. There are a number of challenges that financial institutions face. 

What can you tell us about some of the things that you're really concerned about when it comes to community banks being able to keep their doors open long term? 

Randy Hultgren (27:14.177) 

What goes back to what I said kind of from beginning, just how much regulation banks have. I am just convinced that no other industry is more regulated than banks. And that's a good thing. You know, there is a security level that comes with that, that people can feel confident when they are working with a bank that it is solid, that there is very strong compliance and regulatory. 

standards that that bank is living up to every single day. So that's a good thing. Unfortunately, a lot of the other companies that are out there that are presenting themselves as handling money for consumers don't have those same protections. And it really is risky, much, much, much more risky than working with a bank, working with a credit union. And so this is something that I think continues to weigh on our banks. It's a level of regulation. 

and sometimes competing interests among regulators and sort of the swing that we see depending on administrations that come in and who's in leadership in these different roles. When I served, my goal was to make sure that, again, we're recognizing the uniqueness of banks, you know, that not every bank is the same. In fact, they're very different. And it's one of the beautiful things of our system here in Illinois, having over 400 banks from 

not branches, but literally different banks that people in Illinois get to choose from. That's a wonderful thing. That is great options and opportunities and recognizing that different banks can serve different customers in different ways. That's fantastic. The problem is that's going to go away if there continues to be so much regulation that it becomes impossible for especially smaller banks to stay afloat. I used to see it again when I represented 750 ,000 people in Congress. 

I travel around my district and it would break my heart when I saw Community Bank closing because I knew it was just a matter of time that that little community was under threat and likely going to become a ghost town, not having that Community Bank there as a foundation, as a heartbeat, literally the first ones to respond when there's a crisis or there's a need. It's that local little Community Bank that is stepping up and doing that, supporting the local little league or the Kiwanis or... 

Randy Hultgren (29:35.885) 

whatever is happening in that town, it's always that local community bank that's stepping up and oftentimes volunteering on boards and doing so much. Very proud of our bankers for all that they do. But these are real threats that it becomes more more difficult as a smaller and larger financial institution to stay open. We've also seen, I've been surprised at so many of the challenges that our banks face are not of their own making. You one of the big challenges was the incredible 

rapidity, how fast interest rates jumped up in just a matter of months over the last year or two. And banks, you know, had to respond to that, had to pivot with that. But it was challenging when you've got long term loans at low interest rates and yet paying out interest on deposits at much higher interest rates. It's a very tight margin time. The yields are very close and very tight for banks. 

It's incredibly difficult, so proud of the work that they do, continuing to be safe, to be sound, to be cutting edge with technology, making sure that their customers have exactly what they want to be able to have ease of banking wherever they want to bank, but also making sure that those banks transactions are protected. Our banks have done just a fabulous job of that, but it's a difficult time and it seems like so many different things impact the ability for the bank. 

to be able to serve that community and, you economy, interest rates, inflation, different things that happen around the world even can have ripple effects across to banks. So they feel it when other industries are hit as well. The bank feels it also and feels it personally because they're a part of wanting to make those other small businesses be successful. 

Virginia Heyburn (31:29.62) 

and we share your passion for community banks, so I really appreciate that comment. I've got one more question, Randy. You mentioned how much regulation there is, and it's also opaque regulation, right? It's not something that's necessarily easy to implement in a financial institution, let alone across the financial services ecosystem, but we're in a unique year. It's an election year. How do you see the future of regulation 

depending on how this all shapes up, Republicans versus Democrats in the White House, of course in the Congress. And I think the easy answer is there'd probably be more regulation with the Democrats, less regulation with the Republicans. And yet, do you forecast any specific regulation differences, any particular regulation that we might see go away, might see get added onto the docket? Any thoughts? 

Randy Hultgren (32:22.437) 

It's a great question and it's really hard to predict, but I think you're right. Elections do have consequences. And I had seen it that the person who is sitting in that director spot or secretary spot has a pretty significant impact on how the regulation is going to be implemented. Even the mindset of examiners that what I get frustrated with when there's almost a feel like of a gotcha. 

type mindset that can happen in some exams or some regulation. What I always wanted and what we continue to want and our banks certainly want is we want to work with our regulators to make sure that our customers are well served, that our banks can continue to stay vibrant and strong, and that there's this consumer confidence in the banking system. It's at right level of regulation. So we're not looking to do away with regulation. 

We want to make sure that it's level and fair among different financial institutions and that there's no misperception out there by the public of how safe something is or isn't that they need to recognize again that banks have just a higher bar and they're willing to do that but would love for it to be more level. So we'll have to watch and see. I do think oftentimes what works best is 

when there's give and take that I think our founders, one of them, well, not a founder, but Abraham Lincoln is one of my heroes over my shoulder. I'm in Springfield, Illinois right now. But he was really one of the ones who started the idea of national and state banks back in 1863 and recognizing again that that's a good thing, this having the decision that a bank that is starting up makes of whether they want to be primarily regulated by national examiners and 

entities or state examiners and entities. This is a healthy thing again for us to still have state banks and national banks. A lot of people don't realize the difference there, but it's really good and it's really important. And every little thing that we do potentially drives banks one direction or another of how they're going to go. So I do think it's healthy when there's give and take, when there's not one side controlling everything, pushing whatever 

Randy Hultgren (34:46.029) 

things through. had my congressman as I was growing up was one of my heroes but was a real statesman, a guy named Henry Hyde. And he used to talk about, the only thing worse and more frustrating than the grinding gears of government. He said the only thing worse than those grinding gears is the greased chute of government. When there's no check, when there's no balance, when things just fly through, that's worse. So as frustrating and as hard as this process is, it really was intended by our founders and leaders throughout the 

decades and the centuries that it's difficult. It ought to be difficult to pass legislation. And that was one of the things again we're struggling with here in Illinois was that something kind of went through the Greece shoot, that it didn't have the full hearing, didn't have the full process to go through. My hope is that doesn't happen again, that the court process will recognize that this was a mistake and make the necessary changes and that this can also be something that other states and also maybe even our 

national leaders will recognize and see that this is a system that works well for consumers. They've got some great options and they want to hold on to those benefits that they've earned by being great customers of these different companies. 

Virginia Heyburn (35:59.444) 

I think that's such a perfect way to end this, bringing it back around to our topic at hand. Randy, thank you so much for joining us. I know you're very busy and working on behalf of the banks in Illinois. We appreciate it. 

Randy Hultgren (36:12.749) 

Thank you, Virginia. So good to be with you. Appreciate the friendship and look forward to working together as we go forward for the good, common good of our financial institutions that we care so much about. So thank you. 

Virginia Heyburn (36:23.508) 

Yes, here, here. And to everybody listening into today's episode, thank you so much. We hope you found this episode, this discussion informative. To stay informed on when we're going to be dropping the next episode, follow EngageFI on LinkedIn. I look forward to seeing you on the next episode of FinTech Unleashed. Have a great day, everybody.