Episode 1: The Payments Evolution: Trends Shaping the Payments Industry

In this episode, Virginia Heyburn is joined by Jenn Addabbo, Co-founder & CEO of Engage fi to discuss the evolving landscape of the payments industry. They dive into the latest trends, from emerging payment types like real-time payments and digital wallets, to the growing importance of fraud management in a world where security is paramount. Virginia and Jenn will also explore the foundational technologies driving these changes and how banks and credit unions are rethinking their portfolios to stay competitive.

Transcript

Virginia Heyburn (00:02.483)

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of FinTech Unleashed. My name is Virginia Habern. I'm the Director of Research, Insights and Advocacy at Engage FI. And today I'm really excited to be joined by my colleague and our leader, Jenn Addabbo. She's the co-founder and CEO of Engage FI. We are going to discuss the evolving landscape of the payments industry. There is a lot happening in the payments world, new payment methods.

Jennifer Addabbo (00:12.396)

Yeah.

Virginia Heyburn (00:31.089)

brand new and already formidable competitors, seismic shifts in consumer payment preferences, and of course, new regulation. Is it restrictive? Is it supportive? A lot of debate. And finally, there are new technologies that can help financial institutions drive payment efficiencies and also fight fraud. So there's a lot for banks, credit unions, fintechs, and payment processors to plan for in order to keep up with the pace of change. so

that they can get the payments mixed right. So let's get right to it.

Virginia Heyburn (01:05.949)

Jenn, I'm so excited to join you today. Thanks for being here.

Jennifer Addabbo (01:09.782)

I am thrilled to be here, Virginia. I am an avid watcher of everything you do with all of our podcasts. So I'm hopeful that I live up to your expectation because you always do such a great job.

Virginia Heyburn (01:20.307)

Not only are you our leader, you are also a definite industry expert and I'm really interested in your perspectives today. Before we get started, can you share with our audience who you are and then also of course who Engage fi I is?

Jennifer Addabbo (01:36.45)

Sure. So Jen Adabo, the CEO and co-founder, as Virginia mentioned, started Engage fi as a consulting firm for community financial institutions because there is so much happening in our industry that it can be hard to keep up, whether it's vendor consolidation, market changes, digital transformation, et cetera. So I really felt like there was an opportunity for us to disrupt the kind of legacy traditional consulting model.

that seems to sometimes look more at history than planning for the future. And so we have a tremendous team. I am blessed to work with 80 consultants that are surrounded across the country, working with our community banking credit union clients. We have about 350 clients now. So it's been a tremendous 10 years and look forward to the next 10 years. But man, can't imagine what we're going to be talking about 10 years from now based on the pace of change we have.

Virginia Heyburn (02:34.149)

Absolutely, and I think we're going to talk about some of that today. Jen, let's start with the consumer. This is obviously where it all starts. What consumers really want from financial services, how they want to pay, and the way we pay, you and I, it's changed dramatically over the past five years. It's faster, it's embedded. In some cases, it's setting an expectation. For example, going to Whole Foods and paying with my palm, I often wonder, why can't I do this everywhere?

How do you see the payments experience across consumer payment types becoming more seamless, more integrated into everyday life?

Jennifer Addabbo (03:12.854)

Yeah, I think, and you do a ton of research in the impact demographics play in the changing payment landscape. I know that my kids certainly will not even know how to write a check by the time they actually have to write a check, right? So when I look at that seamless experience, I think back to even personally, I've gone on a couple of trips, been lucky enough to go on some girls trips recently. And every time we travel, we utilize the app Splitwise. And before,

We were worried about who's picking up what check, making sure somebody wasn't paying too often or not enough. so Splitwise has made it extremely easy to embed your payment preference within the application itself. And so now it's an expectation that that's just how we're going to handle paying each other back and forth. you know, when I look at super apps like Apple Pay and Google Pay, I mean, it's, it's completely seamless to the consumer and the younger generations are what is driving.

the expectation and those of us that are not as young as we once were are either having to adjust and learn new ways or just at least be a little more open minded to what's out in marketplace. So they're still going to need to be the foundation for security, regardless of the experience. So even as we look at where these apps are going, the underlying fraud management and risk mitigation is going to continue to be on the forefront, at least of what

our financial institutions need to be thinking about, but they're going to have to be prepared to adopt some new technologies to accommodate the needs of their consumers. Even the consumers they expect would kind of take their credit card or debit card on those trips. Now I might pay with a credit card, but I'm processing that P2P transfer via Venmo or PayPal embedded within Splitwise. So at some point,

In that example, what is SplitWise going to do with that data to potentially monetize the data of those transactions?

Virginia Heyburn (05:10.493)

Yes, and I think that's such a good point when we talk about embedded payments. So often we think, you well, the payment is going to be embedded within, for example, an app, but it's not just the payment, it's fraud management, risk management, security. Financial institutions have to be ready to reinvent how they think about providing payments to their customers and members.

Jennifer Addabbo (05:30.241)

Exactly.

Virginia Heyburn (05:31.613)

So then thinking about who's driving this innovation, it's very easy to point at the fintech companies, these brand new competitors that have really in a very short period of time burst onto the financial services scene. How are these companies in your view challenging traditional banks and credit unions?

Jennifer Addabbo (05:52.384)

Yeah, you know, they've been aggressive in capturing market share. They have the ability to roll out an app and almost overnight have a million users on the application. And so they're, they're first and foremost thinking about the user experience. And I think that's where as an industry financial services has lagged. It was sort of, let me think about it from a product set and then figure out the experience. And these fintechs are going at it in somewhat of the reverse.

roll out. They're thinking about how do I build something that is going to continue to attract a larger market share and I'll figure out the product and expand the products after the fact. You know, they've really they've rolled out services like credit cards and debit cards. They're expanding into lending and wealth management and my 14 year old son Palmer, he got his first debit card and we went to the local financial institution, which was great. The process could have been better. It was a little clunky, which was frustrating.

So that could be better initially is sort of making that adoption, that first adoption experience seamless. But what was interesting is, especially because as we've seen the aftermath of this hurricane, Palmer was out picking up debris for a lot of our neighbors who were just devastated in this process. And so many of them wanted to tip him as a thank you, know, thank you for filling these bags of garbage and they didn't have cash on. So they said to him, do you have Venmo? And I hadn't set up his Venmo account yet.

and he comes running into the house saying, they only can pay me via Venmo. And so we set up his account. Immediately, Venmo prompted us with, would you like a checking account with this? Do you want a debit card associated with it? So they're doing a great job of, as a FinTech, identifying this need and then supplementing that with a product. And unfortunately, I think we lagged in that space as an industry and we need to sort of be thinking about how to transform, how to be tech-

first how to be a little more agile to meet the needs of these younger digital native consumers, because that is, as we all know, the next generation that's going to come in behind us, and they're not willing to wait. And so I think that's really my suggestion as we're working with clients, especially those that are working on their strategic planning, is transform the way you've been thinking. Don't just do it the same way you've always done it. Let's lead with a tech first and user experience first.

Jennifer Addabbo (08:14.4)

and then figure out how to deliver the appropriate products afterwards. And Fintechs have done a good job at that.

Virginia Heyburn (08:19.899)

I think that's such a good point because payments, we think of payments, it's really a third leg of the revenue stool. You've got your deposits, your loans, and you have payments. Arguably, payments wrapped around the deposit account in most cases. You mentioned Fintechs, a firm is an example of a company that's come into the market. They've landed, they've expanded, coming in with buy now, pay later, and then offering now, recently announced that they're offering checking accounts.

with rewards wrapped around them. So this is a clear example of innovation. And when I think of what fintechs have been able to accomplish in the last five years, over 50 % of checking accounts are now opened with fintech-oriented financial institutions. It's impressive. So staying on the buy now, pay later theme, this is an emerging payment type that we have seen. It's become mainstream in its utilization. It's becoming more more embedded.

Jennifer Addabbo (09:02.945)

Right?

Virginia Heyburn (09:15.121)

What is your take on buy now pay later and how it's affecting consumer behavior and payment strategies?

Jennifer Addabbo (09:21.174)

You know, it's funny, it's sort of like what was back in the day is now again, right? We're seeing sort of that retro flavor. And so I still think of Buy Now, Pay Later as the renewed layaway program. so, you know, the Zoomers are not going to know what layaway was, but I think a firm embedded into Buy Now, Pay Later focused on that frictionless experience. And, you know, I think when you focus on the needs of the consumer, in this case,

they're attracting those kind of concern, they're concerned of credit card debt type of consumer and they're attracting that audience and that market share with a product that has just sort of been reskinned from ages ago. You know, I think that recognizing the challenges in the market from an economy perspective and saying, what else can we be thinking about? What are new products that we could be rolling out?

you know, think a firm has done a great job at that. They've said there's a need in the market that's not being supported by financial institutions. We're going to go out there and provide this as a service. And, know, the financial institutions are going to have to figure out a way to incorporate that into their credit card strategies and incorporate by now pay later into those products. But it's interesting because it's it's really now exposing even a high yield checking, high yield savings program.

at a firm. So now a firm is competing directly with those banks as well. And the banks are trying to enable buy-not-pay later into their payment strategies is co-op petition at its best, right? So I think that's the best way to even describe fintechs. It is co-op petition, but it's in order to survive, this partnership has to be there. And banks and credit unions need to think about how they're playing in that game.

Virginia Heyburn (11:07.027)

Totally. And speaking of partnerships, the firm's partnered with Apple, so the digital wallet includes so many more payments options. And that's really what consumers are looking for. I did want to give a shout out to businesses too, because as you think about the future of buy now, pay later, over the next five years, the rollout of that kind of a service to small and medium businesses, giving them access to financing that they otherwise would not be able to get, that's going to be enormously valuable, I think, for a great number of small businesses in the United States.

Yeah. And speaking of new payment types, know, as I was preparing for our podcast, I got really intrigued by what's happening in the A to A space. So much talk about, you know, pay by bank. Consumers are getting more comfortable with paying by bank, entering in their checking account information, their routing number. And once A to A is embedded in these mobile wallets, I think particularly the younger generations,

that are somewhat credit card averse because they've seen their parents go through dealing with credit card debt in recent years. They may well latch onto that and we may see some pretty sizable growth if you look out over the next decade.

Jennifer Addabbo (12:19.296)

Yeah, I totally agree. And when you say pay by bank, I can't help but think about the recent announcement that Walmart made in conjunction partnership with Fiserv. you know, the interchange impact, you can't talk about payments without discussing interchange. And, and it was going to be very interesting to see how Walmart's pay by bank strategy changes consumer behavior. And I think that

When Walmart does something, people pay attention. We saw, you know, obviously the Amazon Go stores changed perspective of do I actually physically need to make payments in stores or can I walk in and walk out? And we know how Walmart feels about paying interchange and driving the, you know, the so much of the initiative around the impact of Durbin. and I think that it's just really, really hard typically to change behavior, consumer behavior.

but Walmart is tapping into their discount strategy for their loyal customers and claiming that they're going to, by rolling out pay by bank and reducing their costs associated with paying interchange, which obviously affects our customers and their income stream, they're claiming that they're going to provide a 10 % discount across the board for customers that are choosing that as their payment option. So people have said that, right? They've said that the regulatory

impact of Durbin should benefit consumers. lower cost routing of using like a real-time payments rail should benefit us when we're shopping, but we clearly have not seen that in any way, structure, or form. So it's going be interesting to see how consumers adopt and if they're leaning more toward that 10 % reduction on goods at Walmart, which could in turn then be paid by those businesses that are trying to

occupy shelf space in Walmart stores. So I still don't see the benefit overall except to Walmart, of course, in their ability to roll that out. I have concerns of how it is going to have the ripple effect that it's going to have on the community of five space for sure.

Virginia Heyburn (14:22.237)

Yeah, and let's talk about that, Jen. I'm so glad you went there with interchange. It's such a big topic right now. How do you see interchange regulation impacting the revenue models of these smaller banks and credit unions? How can they adapt?

Jennifer Addabbo (14:36.958)

It's very concerning, right? I mean, it is going to erode a significant revenue stream for our community financial institutions and for the big networks, Visa, MasterCard, MX and Discover, and where they're putting their investments in continued research and development of new products and services in fraud tools. so anytime you compress income and margins on services like this, we're all going to

to feel the pain of what the results are. you know, for credit unions and community banks to react to this, they're just going to have to adapt. They're going to have to consider what is the financial impact of this particular product set, in this case, know, credit card, debit card interchange. Yeah, but what are alternative revenue sources or value added services that they could provide and take a page out of the Fintechs book, take a page out of...

folks like a firm who have said there's a problem that needs to be solved. The key for them is going to be balancing compliance with innovation and the risk concerns associated with that. But they're going have to make sure they don't lose competitiveness. Something that's interesting, we've just come off a key industry event and major topic there was small business service offerings and allowing community financial institutions to really dive into

the millions of small businesses that need banking products. the community FIs, the credit unions in particular have not typically had a great presence in small business service offerings. They're expanding, especially with the &A that we're seeing there. offering merchant services to small businesses, which is ironic considering we're upset about the fact that the cost of the merchant processing is

being reduced and now we're saying, why don't we dive into that and provide that as a service to potentially offset the interchange revenue stream by adding a new revenue line, which in this case could be merchant services. But I think they're just going to, like I said, have to be thinking about innovative problems that their members and consumers and customers and small business customers need and start to monetize that. It's impactful for sure. We do a ton of work.

Jennifer Addabbo (17:00.99)

in helping our banks and credit unions understand the complete picture and the profitability of a payments strategy. I feel like too often banks and credit unions are thinking in silos and certainly operating in silos when it comes to credit cards and debit cards. What we've been able to do really effectively is come in and based on what their consumer spend looks like and their business spend looks like.

create a profitable payment strategy that incorporates the pin network interchange and expenses, the big network interchange and expenses, and the payment processors to ensure that they are having the lowest cost, highest value, and greatest opportunity for incentives.

Virginia Heyburn (17:45.863)

Well, and because banks and credit unions have to get a whole lot more efficient with the math changing in terms of profitability, really across the board, this goes beyond payments, they have to pursue efficiencies like never before. There is just still so much overhead, there's still so much legacy technology, so many manual processes and financial institutions. And then also another thought I had as you were speaking is you mentioned data.

As more and more of our systems in our industry move to the cloud, it's going to be a lot easier to break down those data silos. That's really the gold in financial services is being able to take that data, demonstrate to customers and members, we know you, and we're going to make some recommendations based on what we have here. So I think there's opportunity there that is just completely untapped.

Jennifer Addabbo (18:32.407)

Right.

Jennifer Addabbo (18:36.48)

Yeah, definitely.

Virginia Heyburn (18:38.781)

So all this said, I think what I'm hearing you say is it's getting a lot harder for particularly smaller financial institutions to be in the credit card business. I mean, what challenges are they facing in maintaining this business?

Jennifer Addabbo (18:54.626)

You know, it has been an interesting couple of years. I would say, you when we think about the, obviously the increased competition of even, you know, non-bank entities in this space, you know, regulatory pressures, the cost of rewards and continuing to evolve a reward strategy in the credit card portfolio and change from a traditional rewards transaction based, just offer cash back or travel.

to a more personalized reward strategy that hits right on what you just said, requires them access to the data and using the data. They've had access to data for a long time. It may have been difficult to merge disparate systems together, but I think that's another area we've lagged as an industry is really taking advantage of that. But all of that combined has really strained margins associated with it and add to that vendor consolidation in this market. So the actual payment processors.

that provide these services, know, the FISER first data merger, what we saw with FISM WorldPay initially before the spinoff and the credit union side, the combination of PSEU and co-op to Valera. It's not giving these community financial institutions a lot of options when it comes to partnering with service providers. And so they're trying to offer robust payment processing solutions.

And they have to depend on their vendor partner to be able to deliver a competitive product. So community bank and credit union can't just run a transaction like a backend FIServe system could or an FIS system can. the service levels of those vendors are strained. And so we're in this situation now where some of the community financial institutions are questioning whether or not they should even stay specifically in like the credit card market and compete with

you know, the large national international brands because they're frustrated with the vendor options they have in front of them and they can't do it themselves. So they're dependent on the right partner to get them there. And I continue to be hopeful that we're going to see new market entrance. It hasn't, we haven't had a lot of new market entrance into payment processing for a long time and especially in the credit and debit world. But we're starting to hear and see some international players that might want to break into the U S market because

Jennifer Addabbo (21:15.266)

If we don't do that, I think we are going to see a, an increase similar to what we saw in 2008 with a sell off of card portfolios. And when our clients work with us on the analysis of that, you know, it can be tempting to make a knee jerk reaction and say, I just can't keep up. I can't keep up with the regulations. It's my margins are compressed. I don't have the right talent to run it. and so I'd advise against kind of a knee jerk reaction and really dive into.

the data associated with your portfolio and do a full financial performance to determine what's right for each individual financial institution. We've had clients where it has been a no-brainer to sell it and to receive the of the spiff revenue stream that comes off of it, not to have the burden of the portfolio. And we've had others where when we dug into the analysis, the risk of the customer impact.

was too great. There was going to be too much negative customer experience or that they couldn't control that could affect the overall profitability of the financial institution, not just the credit card portfolio itself. I'd like to see new market entrants in this space that provide card processing at the right price that are expanding how they're delivering in the community FI space.

Virginia Heyburn (22:33.08)

And it's new market entrance, Jen. It's also with consumers wanting so many more choices and options, it's being able to support those options. It is the card-based payments. It's understanding that there is a shift underway away from card-based models to some extent with instant payments, A to A. We've got the FedNow launch. And of course, looking at other countries,

You see what's happening in Brazil and India and you've just got mainstream adoption of these instant payment options that will influence thinking and I think over time is going to drive adoption, particularly in the younger generational segment.

Jennifer Addabbo (23:10.689)

Definitely.

Virginia Heyburn (23:12.253)

So we have to do more for our customers because they want us to. Let me ask you, speaking of more, the more gets embedded in these digital wallets and they ingest then the alternative payment methods, what pressure are those newer containers for payments placing on the traditional credit card model, especially again for smaller institutions?

Jennifer Addabbo (23:36.906)

Yeah, mean, consumers are becoming increasingly comfortable paying via mobile apps and wallets and bypassing the need for physical card. I think traditional banking thought processes, if I have that physical card in my hand, it's a brand. It's another reminder of the brand every time they use it and it's creating loyalty. And, you know, it's more about convenience and time savings overall. It's interesting. I was at Nordstrom recently and

didn't have my Nordstrom branded card on me and I love their rewards points, especially around the holidays, where most of my holiday gifts come from. And I didn't have my card on me and it was kind of a double points day. So at the point of sale, I said, don't have my Nordstrom card. And they said, all you have to do is text, get my card to this five digit number. Immediately I was presented with a QR code, so a provisioned QR code for my card.

that I scanned and had access to at multiple point of sale within the same Nordstrom. you know, that was a great customer experience and that's not necessarily something that financial institutions are thinking about. They're thinking about top of wallet as it relates to how do I get into your subscription services? How do I get embedded into your apps like Uber and DoorDash, et cetera? But smaller institutions are going to have to think about

the customer experience changing from that physical credit card and not just think of digital wallet as, know, I have it in my phone and it shows up, the card shows up at the top of my digital wallet. It's even thinking through like this QR scenario and making sure they're partnered with vendors that can accommodate.

Virginia Heyburn (25:15.251)

but very disruptive technology, even though we've been talking about digital wallets for what, 20 years, maybe 20 years, finally, finally, they are really achieving liftoff. And I can tell you a personal story too, just after the pandemic, my family went back to Spain and I was in this tiny little grocery store in rural Spain looking to check out, there were five or six people ahead of me, at least 20 years older than I was, and they're all paying with their phones, every single one of them. And here I am whipping out my credit card.

Jennifer Addabbo (25:20.214)

You know?

Virginia Heyburn (25:44.593)

They gave me some dirty looks at checkout. me tell you. And now, every time I do have to dig in my purse and pull out my credit card, I perceive it as a defect on the part of that merchant. That's just the way I see these days.

Jennifer Addabbo (25:56.418)

I agree. I was never a tap and go person. sort of just had the habit of swiping and now if they don't offer tap and go, I think this is so time consuming. How funny that nanoseconds could be impacting the way I think about that transaction versus the convenience of tap and go and ultimately even just using the phone. Because we always, unfortunately, have our phones in our hands. We might have to dig for our wallet in our purses, but the phone is not far from us at any point.

Virginia Heyburn (26:09.895)

Yes.

Virginia Heyburn (26:23.997)

So true, so true. So we've talked about disruption and I would love to ask you, put your crystal ball out. If you had to predict one major disruption in the payments industry, say in the next five years, what would it be?

Jennifer Addabbo (26:39.007)

It's going to have to be artificial intelligence. hate, I hate saying it because we're all talking about it all the time, but, you know, I just think it's going to be widespread adoption and machine learning and specifically focused on personalized financial, experiences related to payments. So, you know, AI potentially could predict consumer spending habits and automatically optimize payment methods based on cashflow. And even in the small business sector, you know, thinking through.

analyzing cashflow and payroll through the use of AI and integrating their AR into that application. So, you know, I think we're going to see it initially in fraud management, which is great because I think it's a benefit to both the consumer and the financial institution. I also think there's an opportunity for AI to be deployed for cost savings on the back office for financial institutions to route transactions through at least cost routing.

And like I said, I think it should be thought of as a win-win, so benefiting the community of FI as well as the consumer and enabling better spending patterns through their consumer and small business space.

Virginia Heyburn (27:50.589)

Yes, and it's really about data. When we think about payments and how do we compete, we have to create differentiation. And payments have become so commoditized that we have to use that data to create differentiation, to demonstrate we know the customer, the member, to not only know that, have the data and have the insight, but then based on it to create that radically personalized experience.

Jennifer Addabbo (28:15.778)

Yeah, kind of an off the wall thought, in 20, I know you asked me about in five years, but in 20 years, the data could be the monetizable aspect of the payment. So, you know, we shift from the payments being the monetizable event to a data-driven service that financial institutions provide that, you know, are generated through transactions instead of the transactions themselves. So the ability to sell back to consumers.

insights into their spend and their patterns could be a new revenue stream for financial institutions instead of because we've just dived down to the lowest cost possible from an income perspective potentially if interchange keeps compressing the way it is. So I agree, I could not agree with you more that data is a gold mine and it's just, it's about making sure that financial institutions have the strategy, the tools, the people and the use cases to go into it.

slowly and then start to expand as they see the benefits.

Virginia Heyburn (29:16.563)

So final question, Jen. Given all of this, payments innovation, of course, it's one thing to talk about it. It's another thing altogether for a financial institution, especially a smaller financial institution, to go down that road. They have to have the operational agility, the speed, the systems have to be able to adapt that they have in place. It's just not a given. We have a lot of legacy in place. You know that better than most. And then finally, just the integration of these systems can be...

really clunky cumbersome and very expensive. So what needs to happen to prepare banks and credit unions to be payments powerhouses in the future and know compete against fintechs, compete against the large banks and most definitely defend their turp.

Jennifer Addabbo (30:04.704)

Yeah, you know, we we've touched on it throughout the podcast. think for them to be powerhouses, banks and credit unions need to invest in the digital transformation. And that is sometimes too much of a broad description for them to really dive in. It's similar to when Omnichannel, we were talking to somebody the other day and she said, my mom said I need to go get an Omnichannel. She didn't know what Omnichannel actually meant at the time. So, you know, I think modernizing these legacy systems, we're starting to see a move.

from the big vendors to push through to modernization. So even the big vendors are recognizing, hey, we're going to sunset, migrate, evolve some of the newer and leverage the newer tech stacks to then provide that service back to the community financial institutions, whether it's in the core banking side, digital banking or payments as kind of those three key areas. And they're gonna have to, these banks and credit unions are gonna have to cultivate an agile culture and they're gonna have to attract talent that really is excited about that.

because this whole concept of the way this is the way we've always done it, it's just, it's not going to continue to work. And so you said it earlier, right? Adopting cloud-based systems, partnering with fintechs, even though there could be some competition there and really focusing on speed of innovation and investment in the underlying risk services and risk tools that can get them there. You know, even there's a lot of work that we're doing in automating back office so that you can reduce, reduce headcount maybe on some of the

administrative tasks or manual tasks that happen today in the back office by embedding workflow tools and automation and data validation, and then putting all of your investment in the front end technology back to what we said very early on in this conversation is thinking about it from the experience first and then backing into how you get it done. So it's easier said than done. We've been talking about, I've been in the industry for a long, time and I've always had an eye and a passion toward digital transformation.

and it's about having a plan and then executing on that plan. So it's just like if you go to the gym, you could go to the gym and do your workout, but it's always gonna be better if somebody's standing there holding you accountable. And so for us, that's a critical reason why we partner with our clients the way we do is to just hold their hands and help them get through it.

Virginia Heyburn (32:21.949)

You know, I can't think of a better way to end our podcast today, Jen. So thank you so much for your expertise. This was fantastic.

Jennifer Addabbo (32:28.45)

Yeah, I appreciate it, Virginia. Thank you.

Virginia Heyburn (32:31.075)

And to our audience, thank you for listening to today's episode. We are already working on the next one. So to stay informed on when we're going to be dropping the next episode, follow EngageFI on LinkedIn. I look forward to seeing you on the next episode of FinTech Unleashed. Have a wonderful rest of your day, everyone.

Virginia Heyburn (32:53.011)

And that's