Episode 145 | Karen Gibson’s Journey from the Military to the Senate: Service, Strength, and Showing Up

This week on Uncopyable Women in Business, I’m joined by Lieutenant General Karen Gibson. From decades in military intelligence to leading in one of the most high-profile roles in government, Karen’s journey is anything but ordinary.

We talk about what it means to be a “reluctant leader,” why she never chased titles, and how being asked to step up shaped her path. Karen shares what leadership really looks like—hint: it’s not about being the loudest in the room—and how her military background, cybersecurity expertise, and quiet confidence helped prepare her for the unexpected.

She also opens up about motherhood, mentorship, and the power of saying yes—even when it feels scary.

About Karen Gibson:

Karen Gibson is a former three-star Army general and combat veteran who served over 33 years in the U.S. Army, culminating her career as Deputy Director of National Intelligence. In 2021, following the January 6th attack on the Capitol, she was appointed Senate Sergeant at Arms—becoming one of only 42 people in U.S. history to hold that position, and only the second woman. Karen has led intelligence operations across the globe, from Central Command to the coalition that dismantled ISIS’s caliphate. Today, she’s a keynote speaker and national security consultant, sharing hard-earned leadership lessons from the battlefield to the Capitol. 

Connect with Karen: 

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Transcript

Okay. Okay. 14. Perfect. I am honored to welcome Karen Gibson, a former three star Army general and combat veteran who spent 33 years on active duty. She held some of the highest and most demanding intelligence roles in the US military, including director of intelligence for US central command, where she coordinated operations from Egypt to Pakistan and played a pivotal role in defending the ISIS caliphate in Syria.

And defeating, defeating, not defending, defeating, I'm sorry. Thank you. It's okay. Defeating the ISIS caliphate, that's pretty big important distinction. So yes. In Syria and Iraq, and then came an unexpected twist in the aftermath of the January 6th attack on the US Capitol. Karen was named Senate sergeant and Arms.

The chief law enforcement and protocol officer of the US Senate, only 42 people and only one woman have ever held that position. Karen spent four years in that role and was tasked with restoring confidence in the Senate, security and rebuilding a demoralized team. Karen is currently a keynote speaker and one that I can't wait to hear, and National Security consultant.

Karen, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Kay. It's a real treat, and thanks for inviting me. That introduction was a little bit challenging, so I only goofed up once. That's okay. It was an important distinction. Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. If you're gonna mess up a word. Oh thank you for correcting me.

I met you through Patricia Fripp, a good friend of ours, and also she's in the National Hall of Fame at the Speakers Association. She's a National Hall of Fame speaker. She is just delightful and was so generous in connecting me with you. So thank you, Patricia. I know you're listening. Karen, I did listen to your conversation with the Karen Patricia's group, the San Francisco, what is the name of the group?

The Golden Gate Breakfast Club. Okay. The Golden Gate Breakfast Club. It sounds vaguely familiar. But I loved hearing your story and we are gonna do two episodes as you kindly agreed to do, because I really wanna hear about your background and all the things that you've been through starting with how did you even happen to get into the military?

So certainly it wasn't an aspiration of mine growing up, and perhaps we'll talk about that later. But I loved I grew up in Bozeman, Montana. That's my hometown. It's where I've returned to booming town now. Quite different from when I grew up there. But I loved science and I was good at math and I thought I wanted to be an engineer.

I applied to and was accepted at Purdue University, which is a great school. I'm very proud of my affiliation there. I had grown up right next to Montana State University. I did attend summer school there one year, and I could leave my parents' house at 1256 on a bicycle and make it to my one o'clock class.

So I certainly wasn't gonna go to college there when I was ex. And I love that comment. Yeah it's a little too close to home. And so when I was accepted at Purdue, my father said, congratulations, that's a great school. How are you gonna pay that out of state tuition? And he encouraged me to apply for an ROTC scholarship and in return for four years of tuition in fees and a small stipend for books you would owe four years on active duty afterwards.

And at 18. That seemed like a good deal, but I have to tell you that at 18, my idea of long range planning was typically, what am I gonna do this weekend? And maybe is there some test I'm supposed to study for? I really didn't, the gravity of what I had signed up for did not really sink in. I graduated in December of 1986 and I went on active duty in January and I borrowed a car from my father to drive down there, 1200 miles due south, near the Mexican border.

And I had a great time. I had never driven more than a hundred miles by myself. I had never stayed in a hotel room by myself. I felt very adult as a new college graduate until I turned off I 10 to go south on, I think it's Highway 90 to Fort Chuca. And back then it was a narrow two lane road without me shoulder.

It was January, as I've mentioned, cold in the high desert time of year, this gray lead and sky. Nothing to see, but these barren mesquite trees. And that's when the gravity of what I had signed up for really hit me. And I thought, oh my gosh, what have I done? Is that exactly what you said? Oh yeah. No, exactly.

I thought, oh my gosh, what have I done? I didn't really think this through. This is very serious, not easy to get out of. This had better work out. And one other thing I'll tell you, Kay, a couple years later, the exact same thoughts crossed my mind on my honeymoon. Oh my God, what have I signed up for this?

I didn't really think this through. This is serious, not easy to get out of. This had better work out. And I was fortunate in that both gambles have paid off. I am still married to the same man. And my time in the Army, which began as a four year commitment that I really didn't have a lot of enthusiasm for, became a vocation, a calling, a career of many decades that I found deeply satisfying and truly enjoyed that.

That is really interesting. So I wanted to ask, so do you have kids too? I do, we have two adult children and I have two granddaughters. Yes. Oh, wow. That's great. So I have a question. I've been just hoping I got to ask this, but did your kids ever get beat up on this playground? Because they said, their friends said your mama wears combat boots.

No. In fact, they grew up in military communities where everyone had a parent in the military until they were in fifth and eighth grades, respectively. Yeah, it was very much kind of the norm in the communities they lived in. Not necessarily your mom, but at least one of your parents and in some cases they're mothers.

I just thought that was funny 'cause that was such a big saying back in the day. Ah, yeah. No, it was true. No nobody, I think it was considered very normal when they were small. So you were, with trepidation, and I can imagine you driving and the road is dark and narrow and you're like, what the heck?

What have I done? What have I done? So what happened though when you got there? Because it seems like the, I remember you saying the mental, physical, all of the challenges that you faced just lit you up basically. Yes. I was lucky that I asked for Germany and I had these ridiculous reasons that I later realized, the Army really doesn't care what a Second Lieutenant wants, but they pretend like you have a choice and you get to fill out a form and say where you wanna go.

And I had these silly reasons for why I wanted to go to Germany that had nothing to do with the Army's needs, and they sent me to Alaska. And I'm so fortunate. I loved Alaska as a girl who grew up in Montana. It was just a perfect fit. In fact, I extended and I ended up staying five years in Alaska on that assignment.

And I often think if I had been sent somewhere else I might not have fallen in love with it as much. And I think we'll talk perhaps later about some of those Alaska experiences. But, it was very demanding physically. And the harsh environment of Alaska. And then I could show you right now we have snow outside in Montana.

It's May 6th. And it snowed for 14 hours yesterday. So I was I was well prepared for a tour in Alaska. But. I found that the Army challenged every facet of my being, mentally, physically, emotionally, intellectually. I guess that's the same as mentally. And I just really relished that challenge and I very much enjoyed working with similarly inspired men and women who worked together as a team to do something good.

That was deeply inspiring. Now, every now I, every now and then you get a soldier who's not so inspired. I used to say at, for instance, a change of command as I'm departing, to those of you who made my life easy, 95% of you thank you for the 5% who didn't. Thank you for making it interesting, but but it was just a very deeply rewarding career field. I heard you say the word, meaningful, really? I think that meaningful is a great way to describe doing something more with your life. To me, you are such a role model and a hero, but you've helped so many people and you've helped kept our country safe, and we'll get into all of that.

How did you get then promoted through the ranks in the army from there? I think you there are a couple aphorisms. One is take the hard jobs and do them well. And it's very true. I, when I occasionally it didn't happen very often, I would have a very boring, easy job. And I was very, I was desperately unhappy.

The first time that happened to me, I was a captain. I probably had about nine years in the army. And my husband will tell you I cried myself to sleep at night. You look for the hard jobs. You take the hard jobs and you do them well. And, and good things follow. I found that in the part of the army that I served in competence was recognized and if you were very good leaders fought to have you on their team.

And yeah, it's just what I did, yeah. And that's, reminds me of the nurture versus nature, . you are the type of person who just took on those jobs. And I can tell it even makes you a little emotional, it seems to just think of what you did and what that meant to your career.

I knew I wanted harder things now I'm 60, I'm retired, I've retired twice. I am fine with having things go a little slower. It's it pays a toll on your body and it pays a toll on your family. And. But at the time when I had this burning energy and desire, I just always wanted to do a little more.

I think, one thing, one thing I didn't talk about in my conversation with Patricia was my inability to deploy for a long time. I and that was very devastating to me. So I was pregnant with my first child during Desert Storm. That was my unit wouldn't have gone anyway. We were in Alaska in a light infantry division, and they weren't using those kinds of units in the battles in Iraq.

Certainly not at that time. And then I was stationed in Korea during nine 11. And by the time I left, we were several years past nine 11, and I was desperate to deploy. I begged to deploy and the army said, Nope, you're going to the Pentagon. God, I just did not wanna go to the Pentagon. Went to the Pentagon Battalion command.

Now I finally have an opportunity to deploy with the 18th Airborne Corps. I felt like the only lieutenant colonel in the Army who had not been down range. And I was very excited. I had a plumb assignment, a deputy intelligence officer at the Story at 18th Airborne Corps. And as you prepare for that deployment, you get dental exams, anthrax shots, and I was over 40.

So they suggested that I have a mammogram. And I said, sure. And I imagine you've had one before, Kay. Oh, you know that you're not supposed to use deodorant. And I forgot habit you put on deodorant when you get outta the shower, right? And I thought, oh it's really, maybe it's not gonna matter.

And and I was part of a small group of officers, about 10 of us who were sent forward to Iraq to do what's called a pre-deployment site survey. Just check out the lay of the land and come back and report to the commander and the staff on some of the things we needed to do in our final preparations to take over this very important role in Baghdad.

And I would call back every evening to talk to the staff. And one night the Sergeant Major said he needed to talk to me, so they put him on the phone and he was very serious. And he said, when you get back, the radiology department wants you to come back. I said, oh, I know what that's about. I used deodorant on my mammogram.

It's okay. And and I didn't give it a second thought. And when I returned to Fort Bragg, I went to the hospital and every military installation has its own kind of ethos and character. And Fort Bragg being the home of the Army's Special Forces and the 18th Airborne Corps and the 82nd Airborne Division is very rough and tough.

No nonsense, no frills not very fancy, sleep on the ground and proud of it kind of place. And it infuses every aspect of the installation to include the hospital. And so you get these civilian nurses, they come out, I'm sitting in the waiting room with all these middle aged women, army wives, mostly wearing little blue paper gowns.

And they're barking at us like drill sergeants, they're like Miller Jones, Wilson Colonel Gibson, you can come with me. That's when I knew this is not about my deodorant. And and just like that, my, my dream of deploying to Iraq was gone again. And the doctors were like, oh, I'm very sorry, but yes, it's true.

I'm afraid you'll lose all your hair, which I really didn't care about. I cared, but on the grand scheme of things, I was pretty low. It does grow. It does grow back, right? And but I was like, it doesn't matter, when can I get back to Baghdad? And they said I specifically remember the doctor put down his pencil and he turned and looked at me and he said, you've been taking care of the Army for a long time.

It's time to take care of yourself. Which was true. He said. I'm sorry that you won't go anywhere for at least five years, which was not true. This isn't the cancer speech, although I do have a keynote on that and that kind of resilience. But suffice it to say it was a life-changing experience that really, I came out of it wanting to double down on doing things because I, it really, I learned that tomorrow is not guaranteed.

And as I completed my 16 months of treatment, I went doctor shopping and I found a doctor who would sign off on my deployment forms. And in those five years that they told me I wasn't gonna go anywhere, I deployed for two of those and had a, an amazing time. I spent the first year in Djibouti. Then a couple years later I did a year in Afghanistan.

And then of course my Iraq, Syria deployments came later. But that was a, I guess in response to your question about not always getting what you want or life not always turning out as you thought it would. I can vouch for both of those and say that they are true. I guess the one last thing I would say in regard to that is I appreciated the sympathy and support from my friends and colleagues.

There were three things they used to say to me that drove me nuts. One was everything happens for a reason. Still not sure that's true to something good will come with of this. There will be a silver lining. And they were right. I didn't wanna hear it at the time, but they were right. And then the third thing they would say is, but look at Lance Armstrong.

That was before he was so maligned. That's, that was really not helpful either. But but the point of all that is that in fact you can come out of difficult circumstances stronger and you can find goodness in unexpected things that occur and take your life in a different direction.

That's, actually very profound because you say, yeah, look at Lance's arms strong. Now it's, look at Karen Gibson. I don't know about that. I luckily have not been diagnosed with cancer, knock on wood. But I know many people who have, and usually all the focus goes inside and to them.

And it's very telling that you said, when can I be deployed? Let's get this, let's get this thing taken care of and get on with life. That was my priority at the time, and I'm not sure that was really a good one. It's it really, the experience did help me understand that.

I, I, it was a great year to spend more time with my family. I had two teenage children at the time. And that was one of the good things that came of it. Yeah. And maybe in the next one I would like to talk about how you balanced your career with your family, because that's not always not always well, but it happened and it sounds like your kids have turned out very well, you must have done something very right. So when you deployed to these countries, how much danger were you in? It's interesting. I think cancer is more dangerous than the ex than the deployments that I experienced. And when I was not allowed to deploy because I had breast cancer and my son was so relieved of course, 'cause I would get to stay home.

But, he and I have spoken about it. He had this, there were people who were coming back from, particularly in the early days after nine 11, who were not coming back at all, or people who were coming back as amputees. But, statistically speaking, the survival rate for. Deployment is higher than at that time the survival rate for stage three, HER two positive breast cancer.

And although I was seeking a profound and life-changing experience through deployment, I really thought that it would help me, clarify my purpose and serve in a worthy manner. And just, there's a great quote that I won't get right from a French author Irene Ky about how a strong wind does not change the shape of a tree, but it blows off the leaves so that you see the true shape of the tree.

And I thought that's what a deployment, I'm gonna learn what shape is my tree, what is my, the true nature of my character. And I got that and I got a battle. It just wasn't the one that I was expecting. Interesting. So yes, you had a lot to deal with. When you were deployed, you said it's not as dangerous.

It depends. Certainly, specifically. That's over the entirety of Yes. Of a military force. I think Djibouti at the time was not particularly dangerous. My experience in Iraq and Syria, I was operating principally between Kuwait and Baghdad. And it was, at that time not particularly serious because most of dangerous because most of the fighting was in northern Iraq or in northern Syria.

Afghanistan was more of a crapshoot, so to speak. There were a lot of IEDs even in the Green Zone. I remember shortly after I arrived, a huge explosion, which unfortunately killed a number of Afghan children, but it shook our building. Your ears were ringing. Whenever you drove across town, you would be in, body armor.

Lar, et cetera. Afghanistan was probably in my, for the roles that I served in the riskier of those three deployments. Interesting. You are obviously a very unique individual and just fascinating to hear your story and how you think. And thank you for revealing, the breast cancer journey that you had, that and what that meant to you too.

Many of our listeners, you listening will be touched by cancer, possibly personally, so those are very encouraging words. I want to talk now about. How you got into the Senate. Oh, yeah. And I don't know if people realize that the position that you have was as powerful as it is. The chief law enforcement and protocol officer of the US Senate, and again, only 42 people, only one woman have ever held that position.

However, I read, I believe the current yes, Sergeant of Arms is also a woman. Jennifer Hemingway. She was my chief of staff. She's fantastic. And so that she's, yeah, she's great. So the first, what it sounds was a long. Time ago, the first woman that served, or how long Martha Pope was in the nineties.

So the very first Sergeant at Arms was James Mather. He was appointed in April of 1789 when our constitution came into effect. Before that, we'd been under the Articles of Confederation and it wasn't really working. So they held the Constitutional convention in Philadelphia for a couple years.

Came up with our current system of government, the US Constitution. And as part of that when the Senate convened, they appointed a sergeant at Arms in early April, 1789. George Washington was inaugurated in August of that year. So that means we've actually had a Senate sergeant at Arms longer than we've added President of the United States.

That tickles me. But he had three roles. Watch The Door, which is the origin of the law enforcement and security role. For Cure Firewood, which the Sergeant Arm still does because there are working fireplaces in the capitol and watch the horses, which we no longer do. There are no longer horses.

But the sergeant at Arms is responsible for the motor pool, the vehicle fleet, parking lot access, et cetera. And I figured James Mather probably had a couple of stable boys to help him muck out the stalls, but I think he'd be astounded that now there are a thousand folks on that staff and that really together with the Secretary of the Senate, those are the two officers that run the Senate's operations.

They do all manner of things, whether it's, the custodians, people who make furniture, the photographers, the appointments, desks there are emotional support counselors. The secretary runs the dispersing office, and that security role extends beyond the Senate. Campus in Washington DC to include the 450 state offices around the country.

Taking care of their leases, their furnishings their telephones, computer equipments, all kinds of stuff. Physical security, residential security, personal security for the a hundred senators. And then I think what would really shock James Mather is that the Sergeant at Arms is also responsible for all the computer networks and communications.

So everything from tactical radios to cell phones, to desk phones, to the computer networks, data centers, websites. Email exchange all aspects of communication. And that's something he certainly could never have imagined. It was a terrific job. I know you asked how did I get there, so I'll just share that briefly.

People often ask me, was it posted on USA jobs? And I say, no. Indeed. That's not how, that's not how it worked. I had retired from the Army the previous year and said, I'm not gonna work full-time. And then the pandemic hit, and I still wasn't working full-time, but I started teaching at Georgetown University and dabbling in consulting.

And, just as a side note, when you prepare to retire and you go through the military transition course, particularly for senior officers generals and admirals, they tell you that one of the things you're gonna have to get used to is you're gonna be seeing a lot more of your spouse. Nobody says anything about quarantine, and here I am locked in the house with this man that I've barely seen for the last 30 some years.

Fortunately that worked out too. But at any rate January 6th occurred, and I think like most Americans, I was just shocked and appalled and very angry. I thought, here it is. I've been very focused on unstable countries around the world, and this is what I see there. I never imagined I would see people physically storming the seat of the government in my own nation.

And then, later in the month of January, I read in the Washington Post that retired General Russell Rey who did not know me but I knew who he was, he'd been senior to me that he was going to do a quick security study for the House of Representatives to identify some of their security shortcomings, those in the Capitol Police.

And the week after that, a friend of a friend called me and said, Hey, he's looking for a retired intelligence colonel to round out his team. All he hired were law enforcement and security officials. And everyone's saying it was an intel failure. Can you help out, maybe provide some names. So I made a list and I looked at it and I thought, I think most of these kernels have full-time jobs.

I slept on it and in the morning I contacted him and I said, you don't know me, but here's what I bring to the table. I am local. I was living in Northern Virginia at the time. I'm local. I can start tomorrow. No travel involved, and if I could ever do anything to ensure this would never happen again, I would want to know that I had done that.

So he took me on his team. There were five weeks left on the contract, and as we went through, we were periodically briefing members, congressional members and their staffs and our preliminary findings. So I'd been on the team about two weeks, and I was contacted by Senate Leadership and they asked if I would consider.

Becoming the Senate sergeant at arms, which I was a position, I was only just then beginning to learn about, and I talked to some mentors and others who knew more about the job. But I also reflected on the fact that I've just said, if I could ever do anything to ensure this never happened again, I would want to know that I had done that.

And here I'm being offered an opportunity to put into effect these security recommendations that we are making. How can I say no? So I took the job and no regrets. It was an amazing experience, real honor and a privilege and quite frankly, very enjoyable. What I tell the people who asked me was this on USA jobs.

And I say, no, here's a couple of lessons. One. Networking, just always meeting new people. And if I had not been speaking to this woman who actually called me from Dubai, she was a friend of general honorees, if he hadn't called her saying, help me find someone, and she called me and said, help me find someone, without networking, that connection would not have occurred.

Two, put yourself out there. I went to him. He didn't come to me. He didn't know me. I went to him and I said, this is what I can offer and this is how I think I will help your team. You have to advocate for yourself. Three. You never know when that briefings gonna matter. I had no idea as we were in one of these Zoom calls with Senate leadership talking about our findings that they were.

Evaluating and assessing candidates to fill this role. And then four, be open to new and unexpected opportunities. I wasn't looking for a job at all, and I certainly wasn't looking for this one, but boy am I glad that the opportunity was presented to me, and I'm especially grateful that I said yes. It must have been, there couldn't have been a more challenging time to step into that role, and yet you took that on with Gusto and, but I do the fact, I love that story.

I had heard before that they called you for names of people and you're, you're looking at the name saying there's a name missing. Yeah. And that's, but you had retired and so Yeah. You stepped into a very big role. Yeah, it was a very critical role at a critical time. People told me, they said, as I spoke to people, to include folks who'd held the job before, a couple of whom told me it was the hardest job they'd ever had.

I thought it was challenging, but it wasn't the hardest job I ever had. They said it I knew it would be hard. It would not be easy. I had a lot of trepidation about it. They told me it would be hard. They told me it would be challenging. Nobody told me that it would also be fun. And it really was.

And I'm often asked, what did you miss about the army? And there were, some things I missed about the army, but the things that I most loved about the army, I found in that role as well. Working together with a team of men and women who are collectively trying to accomplish something good in the service of the nation.

And it was deeply satisfying. I. I love hearing that, and that's a good place to stop this interview. But I'd that point of just remembering to have fun. Obviously not all the positions that you had you would have fun in would be appropriate. But I think us, in, in business, me and sales and marketing and, branding, sometimes I forget, oh yeah, this is life.

This is fun. You gotta make this. Your own experience that you can enjoy and that it's meaningful to you. So fascinating to hear all of that. And we're gonna close out this episode. And I want to thank you again for offering to do a second interview, a second episode, where we're gonna talk a little bit more about how you faced a lot of these challenges what it was like to deal with men and credibility, and hopefully the biathlon story, to just show that you were, physically it was a physically demanding job at times too.

So as we close this one out, I want to say that Karen can be found on LinkedIn, and I'm gonna put that link in the show notes. And also if you are interested in finding out more of about Karen's keynote speaking, which as I said, from what I can tell is absolutely riveting we will put information on where to contact her agent for that too.

Look for that in the show notes. And Karen, thank you so very much for being on the podcast. Thank you.

Oh, that was