Episode 174 | Women & Power: Risk, Resilience & Real Confidence - Dr. Jane Sojka

In this conversation, Jane shares her insights on how women can navigate career advancement while staying true to themselves. She discusses the importance of self-advocacy, the subtle but real barriers women face in male-dominated industries, and the strategies that help women not just survive, but thrive. Drawing from both research and personal experience, she explains why confidence is often underestimated yet critical, and how women can build it intentionally over time.

We also explore the lessons from Her Success Blueprint, including how to set boundaries, find mentors, and challenge outdated stereotypes. Jane emphasizes that women don’t need to “fix themselves” to succeed—they need to recognize and leverage the strengths they already bring to the table. Her message is both practical and encouraging: success is possible without compromise when you own your value and lead with authenticity.

Order Jane's Book:

https://a.co/d/6nORd71

About Dr. Jane Sojka: 

Dr. Jane Sojka is a professor of marketing at the University of Cincinnati, where she developed one of the first university courses designed specifically to help women succeed in professional sales. Over the years, she’s coached and mentored thousands of women, especially those entering male-dominated industries, equipping them with the skills to take risks, build resilience, and grow their confidence. Her new book, Women & Power: Your Guidebook to Risk, Resilience, and Confidence, brings those lessons beyond the classroom. Through candid stories and practical strategies, she helps women break free from self-limiting behaviors and step fully into their own power.

Reach Dr. Jane Sojka:

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Want to be more successful, make more sales and grow your business? If so, you'll love this podcast. In this show, I (Kay Miller, aka "Muffler Mama,") interview superstar women from all industries. Their experience and advice will give you specific tools you can use to enjoy Uncopyable success. I earned the nickname “Muffler Mama" when sold more automotive mufflers than anyone in the world, and I've been a successful entrepreneur for over 30 years. During that time, I (along with my husband, Steve) have generated 8 figures in revenue for our business.  Besides hosting this podcast, I'm an author, speaker, coach, consultant and most importantly....Kelly's mom.

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Transcript

I am excited to welcome Dr. Jane Soca to the podcast. Jane is a professor of marketing at the University of Cincinnati, where she created a pioneering sales course just for women helping thousands build the skills and confidence to succeed in male dominated industries. 

She is also the author of a new fantastic book, my Word Women Power Your Guidebook to Risk Resilience and Confidence, which is packed with real stories and practical strategies that women like me and you listening can use to step into our power. Jane, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you so much. Kay. 

What a lovely introduction. It is truly an honor to be here and to, to talk with you again. Well, I'm the one who's honored, but thank you so much. I, when I first interviewed you, it was episode number seven and I was a rookie. And I, I have to admit, I'm gonna own it. I'm not gonna say I'm sorry, because that's something you're not supposed to do and say. 

I'm sorry to say that I have greatly improved at my interviewing skills since then. Uh, one thing I have to throw out, this is such a fun coincidence because here you are in Cincinnati. I'm outside Seattle, and yet you got your doctorate degree at Washington State University in the tiny town of Pullman, Washington, where I also went to school, only got a bachelor. 

But isn't that fun? It, you know, it is fun. And I was thinking the cougars right? Go, yes, go cou. And then as my academic career progressed, I was a cougar. I was a bobcat and now I'm a bear cat and I have dogs. So somehow, I'm not sure how that cat theme is, is coming along, but good times at at Washington State. 

And I am forever grateful for the faculty who helped me and supported me. And that was honestly where I started looking into women and B2B sales. And that was really gutsy for the faculty to let me do a dissertation. On that topic at that time. So kudos out to Washington State, right? Kudos to the Cougs that I have to say, I am lucky enough to hold one of these books and it says 2K, go Cougs. 

Yay. I love that. So if you're watching, this is a beautiful book. It's got a beautiful pink cover, and the subtitle is Your Guidebook to Risk Resilience and Confidence. This is not something that you just read, it's not no offense, a textbook. Yes, it is something for you to get involved in. And I showed, uh, Jane earlier, just some of the notes I wrote, all the many dog ears and post-it notes I put in. 

I'm, I'm struggling to see, to think about where we should start because it's also great. Uh, but I do wanna ask you, first of all, what was it that inspired you to write this book? Wow. That's, that's a good question. I think it was, um, I, I started teaching women, and I'm going to, I'm gonna follow your lead and say, I really had no idea what I was doing. 

I knew that women sold differently than men. And then what had I had been taught, but I, other than that, I didn't really know. And so, um, and as the, uh, acknowledgements, uh, as, or

indicate the dedication, it's dedicated to my students because I learned so much from my students and where the education gaps were. 

And then, okay, this is what they need to learn. Let's see if this helps them get there. And that was, and so I was able to, yep, that works. That works. That works. And really, there was nothing else on the market that I could find. And I wanted to send my students out with long, you know, something tangible after the class was over. 

If you forget, if you forget your notes, here you go. Here's the, here's the book. One of the things I've noticed for years, uh, is repetition is how we learn. If we hear something, especially just textbook type teaching, where do this do that, it doesn't stick with us. So we have to be reminded over and over. 

And that's really good for people like me who are teaching people and you how to be confident. Uh, it's a message that bears repeating to say the least. One thing that struck me is that you are so accomplished and yet you are willing to be vulnerable and admit that you also have these fears of failure. 

And as we talked about before, we recorded, if you look on social media, it just looks like everyone's doing fantastic. They are so successful. Business is great, they're confident, and yet we talk to people for real, clients, associates, your students, whoever. And that's not how it is. So kudos to you. I don't know if you wanna speak to that at all. 

How scary it was to be vulnerable, you know? Thank you for noticing. You know, and, and thank you for noticing. Um, I'm a Brene Brown fan, and I think she is the one that brought that vulnerability to the forefront. But I, it was scary for the reason, you know, I stand up as a professor in front of anywhere from 30, I've, I've not taught sales to 600, but I've had 600 students in a large lecture before, and. 

They're looking at you like, like you're, you are the expert. And so the first time I tried it, and I don't remember what example I gave, it may have been, um, go that my tenure track position and how I felt away. I think it was your tenure that you Yeah. You, you almost started giving up on tenure because you didn't think you'd fake it. 

Yeah. And you know, and, and like that was a big moment for me and that was really scary. And I thought, okay, I am gonna try this. I am sure my teaching evaluations that I live and die on are gonna tank, but I'm going to, I'm gonna take that risk. And, and I ironically, as Brene Brown. It had the exact opposite. 

They respected me more, and it became, oh, she has had the same struggles that I've had. And I think it's really, really important. Um, and this was another reason why I wanna share my, my failures was that students would look at me and say, oh, wow, look at that. She's so, no, no, no. I'm not that smart. I'm not that good.

I I've, I've failed too. I've, I've, I'm scared too. You can do this. If I can do this, you can do this. And I think that also inspires them to be their best selves. Yeah. That real factor is definitely, uh, just so refreshing. Uh, one of the things I love that you said is fear of failure is courage, or, or, I don't know exactly how you said it, but tell us in your words, how is that, how are we saying, okay, if we're afraid of failure and we do what we're afraid of, that's courage. 

It takes courage. Courage is feeling the fear and moving forward anyway. What happens with fear of failure? 'cause you know, we're taught from second grade, you know, failure. You know, you learn from your mistakes and it's true. I mean, could I please learn from my successes? Please, just once, you know. No, we, we don't. 

No. The answer's no. We learn from failure. But many times, especially in that learning loop, we end up ruminating over the failure instead of picking out what we need and moving forward. Fear. What we know from consumer behavior research, which is really what I studied if I wasn't studying sales research is fear is paralyzing. 

Um, it was research done at nine during nine 11 and it was how to get people interested in the military. Is it that we say be a patriot and you know, show your colors for the United States, or we are under attack. And you need to protect yourself. The fear message people just hunker down. It's paralyzing. 

And so when we're afraid we don't take a risk, we don't apply for the job, we don't ask for the close, we don't raise our hand in the meeting. And so it's really important for me to teach my students the difference between the fear versus fear of failure. And then with fear of failure, the antidote is not getting rid of the fear. 

'cause you're gonna feel the fear. I always feel the fear, but it's resilience. What's the worst that can happen? They say no, nobody dies. At least in thank goodness, our line of work. Okay, our line of work, nobody dies. Nobody. So what's the worst that can happen? They say No, what do you move on? You know? And that's how like fear loses its power when you know, oh, well, you know what's, so they say, no, no big deal. 

And so you take the risk. So that's why I'm so big on. Intentionally teaching students and women and men honestly, how, how to become resilient, how to practice resilience. And I remember from our last interview, you actually encouraged your students to go out and ask for things that you know somebody Yes. 

Will say no for to or no too. And some of them are ridiculous. Like, Hey, can I have 20 bucks? Yeah. No, you can't have 20 bucks. Yeah. Well, and again, you don't die. Nothing really bad happens. You heard No, and you survived. Uh, one of the things that I, I liked about. That applies to me is that there are things about fear that you might not think of. 

One of them, a big one for me is perfectionism. I say I just want it right. I want it to be perfect, but what I'm afraid of is releasing it when it's not perfect. What will people think? What will, uh,

you know, how will this reflect on me? And that stops me in my track. It's fear perfectionism. It is. You pointed out, I don't remember hearing that before. 

Is fear. It, it really is. I, um, I call them self-limiting behaviors because we're doing it to ourselves. Okay? Nobody expects you to be perfect. You are the one who is laying it on yourself to be perfect. And, and there's enough people who want to limit us. We do not need to be limiting ourselves. And perfection is a perfect example because if you wait for it to be perfect, it never. 

Gets done. It's chasing the horizon, but it's a hard one to get over. It's a hard one to get over. It is such a hard one. I'm actually in the process of creating a program, a program on sales that I know so well, and yet I am really struggling. I keep writing it and I say, this isn't right. It could be better. 

And so it doesn't get done. You talked about that in the book. Well, if you have that attitude, it never happens. So then you Well, in, in fact, the book is a, is a good example because like you Okay. I, I had written it and rewritten and probably revised it five different times and I had taken out sections, like just small chapters. 

Um, because I had the vision, I wanted it to be a workbook. I wanted it to be fun to read that women, women and men open it and say, oh yeah, I wanna, I wanna look at this. And so we had chapters and I had a meeting with an editor for another. Another meeting and I happened to, you know, have one of these chapters with the illustrations and everything there. 

And, and she picked it up and started reading and I thought, oh my gosh. 'cause I had no intention of showing it to her because it wasn't perfect yet. Right? And she read the first two paragraphs and said, you know, you write really well. And I walked out with a book contract, but that's how close this book never came to being be because that perfectionist. 

So even though I write about it, I still struggle with it. You know, my favorite quotation. You teach that, which you need to learn, um, Elizabeth Lesser, and it, it is really true. I am still learning all of this and here you are a tenured professor. I think that's what's so. Encouraging. You have the cred. You have the cred. 

Girl, I love the fact that you said the word girlfriend in this book because you think of a professor as so dignified and unapproachable and you're just a delight to talk to. So I wanna talk about a couple things in this book. When we talked about it, you said this is the type of book where you don't have to read cover to cover. 

In fact, I don't even think you should. My words. Yeah. Uh, you can bounce around, you can read what resonates with you and that might even change over time. Mm-hmm. I would like to lay out for people listening and watching, um, the sections of the book. The first one is self-limiting behaviors and perfectionism is probably one of them, right?

Yes. Yes, it is. Resilience strategies. That is what I'm gonna say probably re resonated with me the most personally. Confidently communicate confidence. And the fine fourth one is lift as you climb. I started out in male dominated industries, and like you talk about in the book, the people that held me back the most were other women. 

Um, I, every time, every time as as I started in this journey, I would make that statement and I would women, and I call them my age between 50 and 80. Okay, I'm getting closer to the 80 side. You better raise it to 90 because we're both, I'm not a college student. A hundred percent, a hundred percent agreement that women undercut our careers more than more than men. 

And you know, I'm in the research field and you don't get a hundred percent. And then I was taking that statistic or make take, making the statement to my students. And I would see the women nod their heads and I'm thinking, okay, this has to stop. Now. We have to learn. But once again, intentionally learn. 

How do you lift other women up? How do you get past that competition? That I think, I don't know. I don't even know what I wanna, don't even wanna say where it comes from, but it's unnecessary. It's cooperation and abundance. How do we create a culture of cooperation, abundance instead of competition and scarcity. 

And so I have some of those in my book, and the students really like those. And I don't know, I, it feels like that's changed over the years. Uh, that's what this podcast is all about. I think it's also, uh, who you surround yourself with. Yes, I'm sure there are arenas of the business world in life, whatever, where it's still really tough. 

I have interviewed, uh, some amazing women who have started as ins, interns, risen to CEOs. Again, a lot of the times they cite the men who have supported them. Uh, I interviewed the, let's see if I could say it right, Sergeant at Arms of the US Senate, one of just a few women in that position. She was a three star general in the Army for years. 

The men supported her. So even though this podcast is uncapable women in business, I've actually interviewed. People all over the map, but hey ladies, girlfriends listening, the pie can only get bigger. It's, we're not, we're not sharing something that's limited. You talk about that, think abundantly. Yeah. Yes. 

I mean, one, Lisa Quist, one of my favorite quotations and her success does not threaten mine. And I would add we are all on a different path. There's always another job. There's always another customer. There's always another teaching award. Her success does not threaten mine. And, but the fact that I can say that from memory tells you how many times I had to repeat that to myself as I was, be because I was. 

Trained to see women as competition. I, I agree with you. I think those days are getting fewer, but I think we actively need to support each other. Um, I'd also like to add, 'cause I'm, I'm, I love men too. It's, the book was for women and designed for women, but ironically, the editor was a

man. And so when my publisher assigned me an editor and it was a man, I was like, really, really? 

Did you look at the title of this book? And it turned out to be one of the best things that could have happened because number one, he would say, you know what? I needed to read this. This is important. I tried it and it worked. And I thought, you know what? I bet you there are some men who are out there who are scared too good. 

And that's kind of the, the trajectory. Brene Brown went too. So I, it's like, oh good. I'm glad you're helping. I'm helping you too. And then he would come back and say, you know, this section, my mom and my sister needed this. So I shared this with them. And, you know, men become our, our best allies. So we need our, we need our fan girls, and we, we need, we need our men allies too. 

Our fan dudes. Yes, our fan dudes. I like that. Uh, one thing, uh, you can see me taking notes if you're, if you're watching this on the video, but there are differences in how women and men sell. And that's something I've kind of danced around on the podcast in some ways because I think is that too big of a generalization? 

But I really, in my experience and working, I was the first woman ever hired in my first job for outside sales. Uh, I was one of few women in my second, uh, job. And I can still think of examples where I was with my boss and we'd be on a sales call and the customer would say, well, can you know, will that be here within the four to six weeks? 

And he'd say, oh, yeah, no problem. You know, and then we leave and I'm thinking, no, it won't. Yeah, there's no point in lying about it. So I've gotta call the customer and say, by the way, that's not gonna happen unfortunately. How can I work with you? And I don't know, should I make that generalization that women and men sell differently? 

That is a tough one. Kay. And I wrestle with that all the time. Okay. Because actually in my field of marketing, we segmentation and target markets, we are always. Generalizing about people. And so I, I think it's fair to say yes. And however, um, one of the outgrowths of my work is that I'm now working on a course for engineers. 

Because if you think about it, engineers, they're very good at the math, but, but they're, my father was an engineer. I mean, they, they're, they're not out necessarily outgoing people. Now, there's some outgoing engineers, but many of them are like me, introverts. And do I have to go to a party? How long do I have to stay and bring a book? 

'cause what else are you gonna do at a party? Right? And so I need to teach them the, you know, similar skills that I would teach some women. Okay. In terms of putting yourself out there and talking to strangers and asking for the clothes. So. Do, you know, get back to your question. I think there, I think there are some general differences.

I think we can all learn from each other and, um, then choose the best that fits us personally. Everyone. We're all unique. We're all different. Absolute. So we'll just leave that alone because there are men that struggle with confidence. There are women that struggle with confidence. We all are in this together, all of us we're humans, right? 

We're real. Absolutely. Absolutely. I, I do. I'm gonna hold this book up again and I'm gonna recommend that you buy it. The link to order it on Amazon is in the show notes. It is Women in Power. Very importantly, your guidebook to risk, resilience, and confidence. I wanna talk about a couple of the things that I feel like apply to me the most. 

Okay. I've had women on the podcast, one comes to mind, Susie Haran, I can't remember the episode. Probably one of the positive, most positive people I've ever met. And she said, I was just born happy. I just have a sunny out attitude and I say, I am so jealous because people that know me, they think that I do have that kind of attitude and I'm an extrovert. 

My husband jokes that I am when there's a party, the opposite of you. I'm the first to get there and the last to leave. He's an introvert. We have to drive separately and that's okay. Everyone's different. Uh, I think one thing that's kind of. Funny and amusing is that some people think they're not cut out for sales because they're introverts. 

Yeah. And some people think I'd be great at sales because I have the gift of gab. Well, I have the gift of gab and one of my big challenges is to shut up and listen. So, yeah. And those are, those are, you're right, those are typical stereotypes. Um, and no, they're not true. And in fact, at one time we, I thought about, I teased my students and say, this is sales for introverts. 

You know, if this is, this is for all of you who are sales for people who don't think they can sell, because yes, you can. And here's the, here's the skillset. But I am with you. I am not a positive person by nature. I have to practice smiling. I have to consciously smile. And so, um, like one of the resilience. 

I bet, I bet this one was a challenge for you. The resilience strategy. Stay positive in the process. That is really hard and I'll, I'll give you an example. Anytime technology goes awry, which is probably once a day for me, I start, okay, I start down, I get down the pit, this is it. This is the promise technology. 

I'm too old for this. I can't figure it out. Why did they have to upgrade it? You know, da da da da, and I'm go spinning down the, the pit if I would, Jane, you can do this. You figured it out before you can smart enough know what to do. There are people who can help you. I can get it done much quicker than when I'm sitting there going down the pit and saying I can't do it. 

And so whenever I can think positive in the process, the whole thing goes much smoother. But you really ha I have to actively work at that. And that's part of those resilient strategies. We know it, but you have to actively work at it. Something just popped into my mind, and this really isn't a, a male or female thing, probably it's a personality thing.

But I've noticed this with my husband, Steve, who is good at technology, but I'm also decent at TE technology too. It might be the TV or the computer or whatever. And if something goes wrong, I think goes wrong, what am I not, what am I missing? How come I'm not getting this? You know, what, what is the, what's the problem? 

And when that happens to him, he says, what, what's wrong with this thing? Why isn't this, do you know? It's not responding to my request. He blames the technology. I blame myself. Yeah. Um, kind of goes back to what we were chatting about before we started recording. My students are not allowed to word, say the word S the S word, sorry. 

And what the research shows. Number one, and this is any married couple will tell you this. Women, women apologize a lot more than men do. Okay. That, that's it. Part of the research, well research will show that women find more things that they feel like they should apologize for. Like, you know, here's the situation. 

Um, you know, you throw out the newspaper by mistake. Should you apologize? Should you not? Women will say, oh yeah, you should apologize. Men will say, no, not no big deal. But the research that struck me the most, it was a graduate class. And so the, um, the professor gave everybody an F on an exam and then ask the students, why did you fail the women? 

It was, I'm not good enough. I didn't study enough. I don't belong here. They blamed themselves. The men blamed the professor didn't do a good enough job teaching. And, you know, so on the one hand, so we say, sorry, I'm sorry I'm late. Well, you know what? Traffic, it's not your fault. You know, um, I'm, I'm sorry. 

Your food is cold. Well, that's the cook. That's not, that's not your fault. Okay. So women tend to apologize for everything. And then conversely, when it's a compliment, what do you do when you get a compliment? Either I deflect it. Oh, I'm not really that good of a teacher. I have good students, which is true. 

I have good students, but I also work very, very hard at my craft. Or I deflect it. Oh, I like your hair too. Your hair looks great too. Instead of saying Thank you, accepting the compliment, shut up. You know? And, or I have to say thank you. I accept the compliment, but it's really hard. So it's, it's interesting to see that dichotomy. 

When I first opened the podcast and talked about how I have improved, I felt like it was bragging or, or, you know, not owning the fact that I have improved. Yeah. I, and how, what, how have I improved? Because I've done the work, and it's okay to say I've gotten a lot better. It's okay to say I'm gonna even get way better still. 

I have a lot in front of me, but yes, women, we need to own those compliments. Yeah. I do say sorry way too often, and I'm sorry about that. I, I really, one of my students tell me there's a

song, sorry, I'm not sorry, and I, I, I, I haven't found it yet. I'm, I'm sure younger people will, will know, but that is, that is really true. 

And, and, and building on that, I mean, on the one hand I am with you whenever I have to submit a bio, I mean, I hate talking about myself. I mean that, and I think that's in some ways. Humility is good or, and certainly we don't wanna be, um, braggarts. Okay? So, so that's okay. But that's where those fan girls really come in, where I can talk about how good you are and what a good salesperson you are and how good your podcast is. 

And then you don't have to talk about yourself. And that's a really important way that we support other women is, is talking, bragging about them and supporting them. And that's something we touched on before the podcast too, because I said I don't wanna do all the PO talking, but the talking I'm doing is mostly about you. 

And the credibility is more powerful when I say how great your book is, how much I admire you, what you've accomplished than for you to say that. So that is something I do work on. Even just passing on kind words. Uh, yes, I went, I went to a concert, uh, very small concert outdoor at the golf club. And afterwards I went up to the band and I said, I really enjoyed your performance. 

And told them about that. Oh, they lit up. They lit up. So that kind of is a little bit of a diversion, but I do want to mention one thing, and that is that all those negative thoughts press pause and change the tape. Now, that is a generalization. Sorry. I meant that is a generation thing because you might not remember. 

LPs, which are coming back. Actually, yes. I don't think cassettes are coming back. Uh, I don't think track or eight track. I don't see HI don't see a future in eight tracks. No. And funny story there. My, my husband's father was one of the inventors of the eight track. If you wanna learn about that, read his book, uncapable, uh, the original UNC Copyable book is pretty interesting. 

So I do have a story that isn't really my own, but it just, I've never forgotten this story. When my daughter was about seven or eight, she was taking piano lessons. We were only parents. We, or, I mean, she's an only child. We were the helicopter parents. We put her in everything. And she had a piano teacher and her name was. 

Kay, coincidentally, Kay Hancock. And the first time that I drove Kelly to take a lesson, this was many years ago, I think I had a cell phone, but not sure. She gave me directions and she said, okay, you turn right on Star Lake Road. Well, I followed those directions and I didn't find her house. Turns out there were two star Lake roads, so there was one close to me, and then it somehow looped around and went way down to where she was. 

And that was the Star Lake Road that I, that she meant. So fast forward 20 years later, I ran into her at a concert, at her church. I think it was, you know, something about Christmas Eve. And I talked with her and she said, you know, I'm still so sorry that I gave you the wrong directions, and I had not thought, I couldn't have told you that.

20 years, she'd been carrying that. Yeah. Yeah. That tape, we have those negative thoughts. Why, why do they keep playing? You need to change that tape. Some of the things that I do are affirmations, positive sayings. Uh, I also love to listen to music. And so you've got great strategies in the book for not only shutting that tape down, but replacing it. 

Yeah. My, my experience because, um, my tape play, you know, it would play all the time. Okay. Every time I would make a mistake, you know, it's just the, the same stupid, fat and ugly. You're never gonna mount, you know, da da, da, da. I mean, we all, we all have them. I mean, we, we 

all have them. And in this life I've heard students, you know, you'll never be as good as your older brother. 

I mean, oh, come on. Um, you're, um. You'd be so pretty if you lost 10 pounds, oh, come, you know, give me a break. Um, oh, you have to be three times better than everyone else because you're black and you're a woman. Well, how can you be three times better than anybody putting that? And so, so we, we have these tapes and my experience is that you can't erase them. 

They, they will always be there. And also maybe some people can control their thoughts to stop them, but I am not able to do that. They, they, you know, they, they play and, and I'm, the reason why I'm so particular about this is I can't control a lot of the stuff that's going on around me. And believe me, I've tried, okay, that's another self-limiting behavior control. 

I like to control and I can't, but I can control what I think and I can control how I react to it. And so I. It's so important with when this negative tape starts to play, that you drown it out. That's, that's my idea, is drown it out. 'cause then okay, you've got the positive drowning out, the negative. The other thing I would notice on these, since like I say I, I don't think you can erase them. 

Maybe some people can't, but that's not been my experience and my students' experience. Um, when I'm hungry or when I'm tired, in other words, my physical resources are down. That is when the tape is more likely to play and it's harder to drown it out because I'm tired and I'm hungry. Okay. It's those resources. 

And I find that also very interesting. But I work on that one. I had to work on that like every day, twice a day. Get that tape, get the tape out. The times that we're vulnerable. Yes. The times when we're hangry. Yes, exactly. Ex. Exactly. You know, it's when you're tired, I can't, oh, I'm, yeah, this is just not gonna work. 

You know, da da da, da da. Well, it always looks better in the morning. You just call it. Call it what it is, go to bed, get some rest, and then try it again. Well, I applaud your vulnerability. I applaud the fact that you are so accomplished and that you have felt called to share everything that you've learned and experienced so far in this book and that so many women and men, anyone who reads this book, you can pick up and read it wherever you know you're called to look and you can journal, you can write, you can put post-it notes and dog ears like I've done.

So I highly recommend you buy this book. And Jane really. I appreciate you writing it and, uh, sharing this with, uh, with my podcast audience. And so I'm just gonna close it out and say thank you so very much for being on the podcast. Well, thank you, Kay. I really appreciate your kind words and, and your support, so I thank you so much for having me. 

Well, I'm gonna end there because that's one of the things I've learned is that I say, well, thank you. And then you say, well, thank you. So that was a lovely place to end. So good. Perfect. Well, sincere. I mean, this was really good timing. I hope this sells you some books. Well, thank you so much. It was fun, and you did a great job interviewing me. 

are. Okay. Okay. And they're simple. Um, okay. So let us go. I am excited to welcome Dr. Jane Soca to the podcast. Jane is a professor of marketing at the University of Cincinnati, where she created a pioneering sales course just for women helping thousands build the skills and confidence to succeed in male dominated industries. 

She is also the author of a new fantastic book, my Word Women Power Your Guidebook to Risk Resilience and Confidence, which is packed with real stories and practical strategies that women like me and you listening can use to step into our power. Jane, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you so much. Kay. 

What a lovely introduction. It is truly an honor to be here and to, to talk with you again. Well, I'm the one who's honored, but thank you so much. I, when I first interviewed you, it was episode number seven and I was a rookie. And I, I have to admit, I'm gonna own it. I'm not gonna say I'm sorry, because that's something you're not supposed to do and say. 

I'm sorry to say that I have greatly improved at my interviewing skills since then. Uh, one thing I have to throw out, this is such a fun coincidence because here you are in Cincinnati. I'm outside Seattle, and yet you got your doctorate degree at Washington State University in the tiny town of Pullman, Washington, where I also went to school, only got a bachelor. 

But isn't that fun? It, you know, it is fun. And I was thinking the cougars right? Go, yes, go cou. And then as my academic career progressed, I was a cougar. I was a bobcat and now I'm a bear cat and I have dogs. So somehow, I'm not sure how that cat theme is, is coming along, but good times at at Washington State. 

And I am forever grateful for the faculty who helped me and supported me. And that was honestly where I started looking into women and B2B sales. And that was really gutsy for the faculty to let me do a dissertation. On that topic at that time. So kudos out to Washington State, right? Kudos to the Cougs that I have to say, I am lucky enough to hold one of these books and it says 2K, go Cougs.

Yay. I love that. So if you're watching, this is a beautiful book. It's got a beautiful pink cover, and the subtitle is Your Guidebook to Risk Resilience and Confidence. This is not something that you just read, it's not no offense, a textbook. Yes, it is something for you to get involved in. And I showed, uh, Jane earlier, just some of the notes I wrote, all the many dog ears and post-it notes I put in. 

I'm, I'm struggling to see, to think about where we should start because it's also great. Uh, but I do wanna ask you, first of all, what was it that inspired you to write this book? Wow. That's, that's a good question. I think it was, um, I, I started teaching women, and I'm going to, I'm gonna follow your lead and say, I really had no idea what I was doing. 

I knew that women sold differently than men. And then what had I had been taught, but I, other than that, I didn't really know. And so, um, and as the, uh, acknowledgements, uh, as, or indicate the dedication, it's dedicated to my students because I learned so much from my students and where the education gaps were. 

And then, okay, this is what they need to learn. Let's see if this helps them get there. And that was, and so I was able to, yep, that works. That works. That works. And really, there was nothing else on the market that I could find. And I wanted to send my students out with long, you know, something tangible after the class was over. 

If you forget, if you forget your notes, here you go. Here's the, here's the book. One of the things I've noticed for years, uh, is repetition is how we learn. If we hear something, especially just textbook type teaching, where do this do that, it doesn't stick with us. So we have to be reminded over and over. 

And that's really good for people like me who are teaching people and you how to be confident. Uh, it's a message that bears repeating to say the least. One thing that struck me is that you are so accomplished and yet you are willing to be vulnerable and admit that you also have these fears of failure. 

And as we talked about before, we recorded, if you look on social media, it just looks like everyone's doing fantastic. They are so successful. Business is great, they're confident, and yet we talk to people for real, clients, associates, your students, whoever. And that's not how it is. So kudos to you. I don't know if you wanna speak to that at all. 

How scary it was to be vulnerable, you know? Thank you for noticing. You know, and, and thank you for noticing. Um, I'm a Brene Brown fan, and I think she is the one that brought that vulnerability to the forefront. But I, it was scary for the reason, you know, I stand up as a professor in front of anywhere from 30, I've, I've not taught sales to 600, but I've had 600 students in a large lecture before, and. 

They're looking at you like, like you're, you are the expert. And so the first time I tried it, and I don't remember what example I gave, it may have been, um, go that my tenure track position

and how I felt away. I think it was your tenure that you Yeah. You, you almost started giving up on tenure because you didn't think you'd fake it. 

Yeah. And you know, and, and like that was a big moment for me and that was really scary. And I thought, okay, I am gonna try this. I am sure my teaching evaluations that I live and die on are gonna tank, but I'm going to, I'm gonna take that risk. And, and I ironically, as Brene Brown. It had the exact opposite. 

They respected me more, and it became, oh, she has had the same struggles that I've had. And I think it's really, really important. Um, and this was another reason why I wanna share my, my failures was that students would look at me and say, oh, wow, look at that. She's so, no, no, no. I'm not that smart. I'm not that good. 

I I've, I've failed too. I've, I've, I'm scared too. You can do this. If I can do this, you can do this. And I think that also inspires them to be their best selves. Yeah. That real factor is definitely, uh, just so refreshing. Uh, one of the things I love that you said is fear of failure is courage, or, or, I don't know exactly how you said it, but tell us in your words, how is that, how are we saying, okay, if we're afraid of failure and we do what we're afraid of, that's courage. 

It takes courage. Courage is feeling the fear and moving forward anyway. What happens with fear of failure? 'cause you know, we're taught from second grade, you know, failure. You know, you learn from your mistakes and it's true. I mean, could I please learn from my successes? Please, just once, you know. No, we, we don't. 

No. The answer's no. We learn from failure. But many times, especially in that learning loop, we end up ruminating over the failure instead of picking out what we need and moving forward. Fear. What we know from consumer behavior research, which is really what I studied if I wasn't studying sales research is fear is paralyzing. 

Um, it was research done at nine during nine 11 and it was how to get people interested in the military. Is it that we say be a patriot and you know, show your colors for the United States, or we are under attack. And you need to protect yourself. The fear message people just hunker down. It's paralyzing. 

And so when we're afraid we don't take a risk, we don't apply for the job, we don't ask for the close, we don't raise our hand in the meeting. And so it's really important for me to teach my students the difference between the fear versus fear of failure. And then with fear of failure, the antidote is not getting rid of the fear. 

'cause you're gonna feel the fear. I always feel the fear, but it's resilience. What's the worst that can happen? They say no, nobody dies. At least in thank goodness, our line of work. Okay, our line of work, nobody dies. Nobody. So what's the worst that can happen? They say No, what do you move on? You know? And that's how like fear loses its power when you know, oh, well, you know what's, so they say, no, no big deal.

And so you take the risk. So that's why I'm so big on. Intentionally teaching students and women and men honestly, how, how to become resilient, how to practice resilience. And I remember from our last interview, you actually encouraged your students to go out and ask for things that you know somebody Yes. 

Will say no for to or no too. And some of them are ridiculous. Like, Hey, can I have 20 bucks? Yeah. No, you can't have 20 bucks. Yeah. Well, and again, you don't die. Nothing really bad happens. You heard No, and you survived. Uh, one of the things that I, I liked about. That applies to me is that there are things about fear that you might not think of. 

One of them, a big one for me is perfectionism. I say I just want it right. I want it to be perfect, but what I'm afraid of is releasing it when it's not perfect. What will people think? What will, uh, you know, how will this reflect on me? And that stops me in my track. It's fear perfectionism. It is. You pointed out, I don't remember hearing that before. 

Is fear. It, it really is. I, um, I call them self-limiting behaviors because we're doing it to ourselves. Okay? Nobody expects you to be perfect. You are the one who is laying it on yourself to be perfect. And, and there's enough people who want to limit us. We do not need to be limiting ourselves. And perfection is a perfect example because if you wait for it to be perfect, it never. 

Gets done. It's chasing the horizon, but it's a hard one to get over. It's a hard one to get over. It is such a hard one. I'm actually in the process of creating a program, a program on sales that I know so well, and yet I am really struggling. I keep writing it and I say, this isn't right. It could be better. 

And so it doesn't get done. You talked about that in the book. Well, if you have that attitude, it never happens. So then you Well, in, in fact, the book is a, is a good example because like you Okay. I, I had written it and rewritten and probably revised it five different times and I had taken out sections, like just small chapters. 

Um, because I had the vision, I wanted it to be a workbook. I wanted it to be fun to read that women, women and men open it and say, oh yeah, I wanna, I wanna look at this. And so we had chapters and I had a meeting with an editor for another. Another meeting and I happened to, you know, have one of these chapters with the illustrations and everything there. 

And, and she picked it up and started reading and I thought, oh my gosh. 'cause I had no intention of showing it to her because it wasn't perfect yet. Right? And she read the first two paragraphs and said, you know, you write really well. And I walked out with a book contract, but that's how close this book never came to being be because that perfectionist. 

So even though I write about it, I still struggle with it. You know, my favorite quotation. You teach that, which you need to learn, um, Elizabeth Lesser, and it, it is really true. I am still learning all

of this and here you are a tenured professor. I think that's what's so. Encouraging. You have the cred. You have the cred. 

Girl, I love the fact that you said the word girlfriend in this book because you think of a professor as so dignified and unapproachable and you're just a delight to talk to. So I wanna talk about a couple things in this book. When we talked about it, you said this is the type of book where you don't have to read cover to cover. 

In fact, I don't even think you should. My words. Yeah. Uh, you can bounce around, you can read what resonates with you and that might even change over time. Mm-hmm. I would like to lay out for people listening and watching, um, the sections of the book. The first one is self-limiting behaviors and perfectionism is probably one of them, right? 

Yes. Yes, it is. Resilience strategies. That is what I'm gonna say probably re resonated with me the most personally. Confidently communicate confidence. And the fine fourth one is lift as you climb. I started out in male dominated industries, and like you talk about in the book, the people that held me back the most were other women. 

Um, I, every time, every time as as I started in this journey, I would make that statement and I would women, and I call them my age between 50 and 80. Okay, I'm getting closer to the 80 side. You better raise it to 90 because we're both, I'm not a college student. A hundred percent, a hundred percent agreement that women undercut our careers more than more than men. 

And you know, I'm in the research field and you don't get a hundred percent. And then I was taking that statistic or make take, making the statement to my students. And I would see the women nod their heads and I'm thinking, okay, this has to stop. Now. We have to learn. But once again, intentionally learn. 

How do you lift other women up? How do you get past that competition? That I think, I don't know. I don't even know what I wanna, don't even wanna say where it comes from, but it's unnecessary. It's cooperation and abundance. How do we create a culture of cooperation, abundance instead of competition and scarcity. 

And so I have some of those in my book, and the students really like those. And I don't know, I, it feels like that's changed over the years. Uh, that's what this podcast is all about. I think it's also, uh, who you surround yourself with. Yes, I'm sure there are arenas of the business world in life, whatever, where it's still really tough. 

I have interviewed, uh, some amazing women who have started as ins, interns, risen to CEOs. Again, a lot of the times they cite the men who have supported them. Uh, I interviewed the, let's see if I could say it right, Sergeant at Arms of the US Senate, one of just a few women in that position. She was a three star general in the Army for years.

The men supported her. So even though this podcast is uncapable women in business, I've actually interviewed. People all over the map, but hey ladies, girlfriends listening, the pie can only get bigger. It's, we're not, we're not sharing something that's limited. You talk about that, think abundantly. Yeah. Yes. 

I mean, one, Lisa Quist, one of my favorite quotations and her success does not threaten mine. And I would add we are all on a different path. There's always another job. There's always another customer. There's always another teaching award. Her success does not threaten mine. And, but the fact that I can say that from memory tells you how many times I had to repeat that to myself as I was, be because I was. 

Trained to see women as competition. I, I agree with you. I think those days are getting fewer, but I think we actively need to support each other. Um, I'd also like to add, 'cause I'm, I'm, I love men too. It's, the book was for women and designed for women, but ironically, the editor was a man. And so when my publisher assigned me an editor and it was a man, I was like, really, really? 

Did you look at the title of this book? And it turned out to be one of the best things that could have happened because number one, he would say, you know what? I needed to read this. This is important. I tried it and it worked. And I thought, you know what? I bet you there are some men who are out there who are scared too good. 

And that's kind of the, the trajectory. Brene Brown went too. So I, it's like, oh good. I'm glad you're helping. I'm helping you too. And then he would come back and say, you know, this section, my mom and my sister needed this. So I shared this with them. And, you know, men become our, our best allies. So we need our, we need our fan girls, and we, we need, we need our men allies too. 

Our fan dudes. Yes, our fan dudes. I like that. Uh, one thing, uh, you can see me taking notes if you're, if you're watching this on the video, but there are differences in how women and men sell. And that's something I've kind of danced around on the podcast in some ways because I think is that too big of a generalization? 

But I really, in my experience and working, I was the first woman ever hired in my first job for outside sales. Uh, I was one of few women in my second, uh, job. And I can still think of examples where I was with my boss and we'd be on a sales call and the customer would say, well, can you know, will that be here within the four to six weeks? 

And he'd say, oh, yeah, no problem. You know, and then we leave and I'm thinking, no, it won't. Yeah, there's no point in lying about it. So I've gotta call the customer and say, by the way, that's not gonna happen unfortunately. How can I work with you? And I don't know, should I make that generalization that women and men sell differently?

That is a tough one. Kay. And I wrestle with that all the time. Okay. Because actually in my field of marketing, we segmentation and target markets, we are always. Generalizing about people. And so I, I think it's fair to say yes. And however, um, one of the outgrowths of my work is that I'm now working on a course for engineers. 

Because if you think about it, engineers, they're very good at the math, but, but they're, my father was an engineer. I mean, they, they're, they're not out necessarily outgoing people. Now, there's some outgoing engineers, but many of them are like me, introverts. And do I have to go to a party? How long do I have to stay and bring a book? 

'cause what else are you gonna do at a party? Right? And so I need to teach them the, you know, similar skills that I would teach some women. Okay. In terms of putting yourself out there and talking to strangers and asking for the clothes. So. Do, you know, get back to your question. I think there, I think there are some general differences. 

I think we can all learn from each other and, um, then choose the best that fits us personally. Everyone. We're all unique. We're all different. Absolute. So we'll just leave that alone because there are men that struggle with confidence. There are women that struggle with confidence. We all are in this together, all of us we're humans, right? 

We're real. Absolutely. Absolutely. I, I do. I'm gonna hold this book up again and I'm gonna recommend that you buy it. The link to order it on Amazon is in the show notes. It is Women in Power. Very importantly, your guidebook to risk, resilience, and confidence. I wanna talk about a couple of the things that I feel like apply to me the most. 

Okay. I've had women on the podcast, one comes to mind, Susie Haran, I can't remember the episode. Probably one of the positive, most positive people I've ever met. And she said, I was just born happy. I just have a sunny out attitude and I say, I am so jealous because people that know me, they think that I do have that kind of attitude and I'm an extrovert. 

My husband jokes that I am when there's a party, the opposite of you. I'm the first to get there and the last to leave. He's an introvert. We have to drive separately and that's okay. Everyone's different. Uh, I think one thing that's kind of. Funny and amusing is that some people think they're not cut out for sales because they're introverts. 

Yeah. And some people think I'd be great at sales because I have the gift of gab. Well, I have the gift of gab and one of my big challenges is to shut up and listen. So, yeah. And those are, those are, you're right, those are typical stereotypes. Um, and no, they're not true. And in fact, at one time we, I thought about, I teased my students and say, this is sales for introverts. 

You know, if this is, this is for all of you who are sales for people who don't think they can sell, because yes, you can. And here's the, here's the skillset. But I am with you. I am not a positive person by nature. I have to practice smiling. I have to consciously smile. And so, um, like one of the resilience.

I bet, I bet this one was a challenge for you. The resilience strategy. Stay positive in the process. That is really hard and I'll, I'll give you an example. Anytime technology goes awry, which is probably once a day for me, I start, okay, I start down, I get down the pit, this is it. This is the promise technology. 

I'm too old for this. I can't figure it out. Why did they have to upgrade it? You know, da da da da, and I'm go spinning down the, the pit if I would, Jane, you can do this. You figured it out before you can smart enough know what to do. There are people who can help you. I can get it done much quicker than when I'm sitting there going down the pit and saying I can't do it. 

And so whenever I can think positive in the process, the whole thing goes much smoother. But you really ha I have to actively work at that. And that's part of those resilient strategies. We know it, but you have to actively work at it. Something just popped into my mind, and this really isn't a, a male or female thing, probably it's a personality thing. 

But I've noticed this with my husband, Steve, who is good at technology, but I'm also decent at TE technology too. It might be the TV or the computer or whatever. And if something goes wrong, I think goes wrong, what am I not, what am I missing? How come I'm not getting this? You know, what, what is the, what's the problem? 

And when that happens to him, he says, what, what's wrong with this thing? Why isn't this, do you know? It's not responding to my request. He blames the technology. I blame myself. Yeah. Um, kind of goes back to what we were chatting about before we started recording. My students are not allowed to word, say the word S the S word, sorry. 

And what the research shows. Number one, and this is any married couple will tell you this. Women, women apologize a lot more than men do. Okay. That, that's it. Part of the research, well research will show that women find more things that they feel like they should apologize for. Like, you know, here's the situation. 

Um, you know, you throw out the newspaper by mistake. Should you apologize? Should you not? Women will say, oh yeah, you should apologize. Men will say, no, not no big deal. But the research that struck me the most, it was a graduate class. And so the, um, the professor gave everybody an F on an exam and then ask the students, why did you fail the women? 

It was, I'm not good enough. I didn't study enough. I don't belong here. They blamed themselves. The men blamed the professor didn't do a good enough job teaching. And, you know, so on the one hand, so we say, sorry, I'm sorry I'm late. Well, you know what? Traffic, it's not your fault. You know, um, I'm, I'm sorry. 

Your food is cold. Well, that's the cook. That's not, that's not your fault. Okay. So women tend to apologize for everything. And then conversely, when it's a compliment, what do you do when

you get a compliment? Either I deflect it. Oh, I'm not really that good of a teacher. I have good students, which is true. 

I have good students, but I also work very, very hard at my craft. Or I deflect it. Oh, I like your hair too. Your hair looks great too. Instead of saying Thank you, accepting the compliment, shut up. You know? And, or I have to say thank you. I accept the compliment, but it's really hard. So it's, it's interesting to see that dichotomy. 

When I first opened the podcast and talked about how I have improved, I felt like it was bragging or, or, you know, not owning the fact that I have improved. Yeah. I, and how, what, how have I improved? Because I've done the work, and it's okay to say I've gotten a lot better. It's okay to say I'm gonna even get way better still. 

I have a lot in front of me, but yes, women, we need to own those compliments. Yeah. I do say sorry way too often, and I'm sorry about that. I, I really, one of my students tell me there's a song, sorry, I'm not sorry, and I, I, I, I haven't found it yet. I'm, I'm sure younger people will, will know, but that is, that is really true. 

And, and, and building on that, I mean, on the one hand I am with you whenever I have to submit a bio, I mean, I hate talking about myself. I mean that, and I think that's in some ways. Humility is good or, and certainly we don't wanna be, um, braggarts. Okay? So, so that's okay. But that's where those fan girls really come in, where I can talk about how good you are and what a good salesperson you are and how good your podcast is. 

And then you don't have to talk about yourself. And that's a really important way that we support other women is, is talking, bragging about them and supporting them. And that's something we touched on before the podcast too, because I said I don't wanna do all the PO talking, but the talking I'm doing is mostly about you. 

And the credibility is more powerful when I say how great your book is, how much I admire you, what you've accomplished than for you to say that. So that is something I do work on. Even just passing on kind words. Uh, yes, I went, I went to a concert, uh, very small concert outdoor at the golf club. And afterwards I went up to the band and I said, I really enjoyed your performance. 

And told them about that. Oh, they lit up. They lit up. So that kind of is a little bit of a diversion, but I do want to mention one thing, and that is that all those negative thoughts press pause and change the tape. Now, that is a generalization. Sorry. I meant that is a generation thing because you might not remember. 

LPs, which are coming back. Actually, yes. I don't think cassettes are coming back. Uh, I don't think track or eight track. I don't see HI don't see a future in eight tracks. No. And funny story there. My, my husband's father was one of the inventors of the eight track. If you wanna learn about that, read his book, uncapable, uh, the original UNC Copyable book is pretty interesting.

So I do have a story that isn't really my own, but it just, I've never forgotten this story. When my daughter was about seven or eight, she was taking piano lessons. We were only parents. We, or, I mean, she's an only child. We were the helicopter parents. We put her in everything. And she had a piano teacher and her name was. 

Kay, coincidentally, Kay Hancock. And the first time that I drove Kelly to take a lesson, this was many years ago, I think I had a cell phone, but not sure. She gave me directions and she said, okay, you turn right on Star Lake Road. Well, I followed those directions and I didn't find her house. Turns out there were two star Lake roads, so there was one close to me, and then it somehow looped around and went way down to where she was. 

And that was the Star Lake Road that I, that she meant. So fast forward 20 years later, I ran into her at a concert, at her church. I think it was, you know, something about Christmas Eve. And I talked with her and she said, you know, I'm still so sorry that I gave you the wrong directions, and I had not thought, I couldn't have told you that. 

20 years, she'd been carrying that. Yeah. Yeah. That tape, we have those negative thoughts. Why, why do they keep playing? You need to change that tape. Some of the things that I do are affirmations, positive sayings. Uh, I also love to listen to music. And so you've got great strategies in the book for not only shutting that tape down, but replacing it. 

Yeah. My, my experience because, um, my tape play, you know, it would play all the time. Okay. Every time I would make a mistake, you know, it's just the, the same stupid, fat and ugly. You're never gonna mount, you know, da da, da, da. I mean, we all, we all have them. I mean, we, we 

all have them. And in this life I've heard students, you know, you'll never be as good as your older brother. 

I mean, oh, come on. Um, you're, um. You'd be so pretty if you lost 10 pounds, oh, come, you know, give me a break. Um, oh, you have to be three times better than everyone else because you're black and you're a woman. Well, how can you be three times better than anybody putting that? And so, so we, we have these tapes and my experience is that you can't erase them. 

They, they will always be there. And also maybe some people can control their thoughts to stop them, but I am not able to do that. They, they, you know, they, they play and, and I'm, the reason why I'm so particular about this is I can't control a lot of the stuff that's going on around me. And believe me, I've tried, okay, that's another self-limiting behavior control. 

I like to control and I can't, but I can control what I think and I can control how I react to it. And so I. It's so important with when this negative tape starts to play, that you drown it out. That's, that's my idea, is drown it out. 'cause then okay, you've got the positive drowning out, the negative. The other thing I would notice on these, since like I say I, I don't think you can erase them.

Maybe some people can't, but that's not been my experience and my students' experience. Um, when I'm hungry or when I'm tired, in other words, my physical resources are down. That is when the tape is more likely to play and it's harder to drown it out because I'm tired and I'm hungry. Okay. It's those resources. 

And I find that also very interesting. But I work on that one. I had to work on that like every day, twice a day. Get that tape, get the tape out. The times that we're vulnerable. Yes. The times when we're hangry. Yes, exactly. Ex. Exactly. You know, it's when you're tired, I can't, oh, I'm, yeah, this is just not gonna work. 

You know, da da da, da da. Well, it always looks better in the morning. You just call it. Call it what it is, go to bed, get some rest, and then try it again. Well, I applaud your vulnerability. I applaud the fact that you are so accomplished and that you have felt called to share everything that you've learned and experienced so far in this book and that so many women and men, anyone who reads this book, you can pick up and read it wherever you know you're called to look and you can journal, you can write, you can put post-it notes and dog ears like I've done. 

So I highly recommend you buy this book. And Jane really. I appreciate you writing it and, uh, sharing this with, uh, with my podcast audience. And so I'm just gonna close it out and say thank you so very much for being on the podcast. Well, thank you, Kay. I really appreciate your kind words and, and your support, so I thank you so much for having me. 

Well, I'm gonna end there because that's one of the things I've learned is that I say, well, thank you. And then you say, well, thank you. So that was a lovely place to end. So good. Perfect. Well, sincere. I mean, this was really good timing. I hope this sells you some books. Well, thank you so much. It was fun, and you did a great job interviewing me. 

Perfect, perfect. . And IAI coming along, we're just getting so tired of being processed and Right. You know, in my podcast you could tell what it's like, but, and the, the most popular bestselling podcasts are things like, well, okay, you know, hang up and say, I gotta tell, say I gotta check with my boss on that. 

I'm not sure I can make that deal. And then just go, you know, do something else and then call back and say, okay, there I talked to my boss. And there we, there's a little wiggle room if we do it right now, they're out, out recommending lying. And I think well really. Yeah, there's this one, I can't remember, 30 minutes to sales success or something and it's, oh God, a lot of young guys and just, oh my gosh. 

Sales done badly. You know, sales done badly and it can work. I always say it can work one time one. That's right. But people will catch on. Customers will catch on. Yeah. So, oh, well thank you. You gotta get to your piano lesson. I hope you practice. Um, yeah, I gotta go and so do you. So thank you again. I, it's gonna be out tomorrow.

Oh, wonderful. Well thank you so much. I the links. Okay, well it was great talking with you. I'm so glad this worked out. It was a win-win for everybody. Yeah, me too. You bless you day and talk to you later. Well, good luck. We'll talk later. Okay. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.