Episode 185 | Diversity That Drives Growth with Nathalie Heywood

In this episode, I talk with Nathalie Heywood, business strategist and growth leader at POC Stock — a global stock imagery platform that’s changing how people of color are represented in media and marketing.

Nathalie shares how diversity isn’t a buzzword — it’s a business advantage. As she puts it, “Any successful business is diverse — in thought, culture, and people.”

We also talked about her personal mantra:

“I do dope stuff that moves the needle — and I have fun.”

I love that. Nathalie’s energy, purpose, and passion for authentic storytelling really shine through. She reminded me that no two people share the same fingerprint — and that our stories are what make us Uncopyable.

About Nathalie Heywood:

Nathalie Heywood (also goes by Nathalie Heywood Smith) plays a leadership role at POCSTOCK, a stock imagery / content platform focused on representation of people of color. 

She is also founder/owner of Heywood Smith Consulting, which works with startups and organizations on strategic growth, talent, operations, and scaling. 

Nathalie is a visionary, results-driven executive with extensive experience building and scaling strategic partnerships and teams that accelerate growth, expand market reach, and create long-term value. She is skilled at aligning partnership strategies with corporate objectives, fostering high-impact alliances, and leading plus training cross-functional teams to deliver measurable results.

Reach Nathalie:

LinkedIn

Websites:

https://www.pocstock.com/

https://heywoodsmithconsulting.com/

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Transcript

I am excited about my guest today. Nathalie Haywood and Nathalie is a business strategist and growth leader at P Stock, a global stock imagery platform that's changing the face of marketing by bringing authentic representation of people of color to brands and media. Today we'll be talking about Nathalie's, passion for purposeful leadership and inclusion, and the lessons she's learned as she has scaled and grown both professionally and personally.

Uh, Nathalie, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you, uh, so much for inviting me. Uh, your book, I mean, it's just a, it's wonderful to be here with you. Well, and I have to give a shout out to Nicole Spiegel for re recommending you. Uh, recommended guests are always exciting because Nicole was a fantastic guest.

Mm-hmm. Don't know her episode, but search that UNC Copyable Women in Business. Nicole Spiegel. Great conversation. Uh, before we recorded, we talked about some of your thoughts on diversity and the power of diversity and what we're missing if we don't focus on inclusion. So you said it well, so well, can you say it again?

Actually repeat myself. Oh my God. Um, so, you know, we, we were talking about diversity and you know, in truth, any business that's successful is diverse, whether it's thought, it's location, it's technology, it's applications of marketing, all of these things, diverse. And diversity exists throughout a business.

So now that we're talking about really looking at the human beings that run a business, and I don't know how you have a business without human beings, we also need to talk about how diverse that thought, that representation, that cultural nuance, and all of those things that come to the table. If you look at any global entity, they are successful, they are impactful, they are good with their product offering because their entity is global.

It means it includes multiple cultures, it includes multiple people, it includes multiple expressions of that brand. So some of some people would like to make diversity a dirty word, and it's not. It's actually what is the flavor of humanity. And I encourage people to really understand what that means and not just go cherry picking what they feel like it should mean.

One perspective is definitely not as powerful as multiple perspectives. I talk on the show about women versus men. Mm-hmm. That has been something that's evolved. And then of course, diversity in with people of color. We don't want just one perspective that's so narrow minded and limiting. I love the points that you're making.

Yeah. And the, the truth of it, I like, I mean just including women into the workforce. Look how organizations have grown. Look how, um, they've been able to capture markets. If you think about, think about the car guys. Make cars, guys drive. Cars, cars, cars, cars. When the automotive industry tapped into the fact that women influenced the purchase, all of a sudden women in the ads, all of a sudden women behind the scenes.

But it's because there were women at the table to make. Insights to give data, to explore other queries in the, in the analysis, in order for us to see that just inviting women to the table change this dynamic. It expands markets, it expands penetration. Uh, you know, uh, if we look at only the United States, then we are, we're looking in a vacuum because the rest of the world is growing exponentially and the markets that are growing exponentially, the ones that are going to be tapped into, they're very diverse.

So, you know, there's a place where you need to play catch up. Granted, United States has so much more spending capital to capital than, than some places, but as you increase the number of people, you also increase the dollars. So to capture that for any business, small or large, depending on what they do, even a small business should be considering, is my business applicable to a market outside of the US if I want to grow?

I mean, and the neighborhoods even. So let's say that I'm not gonna leave the us. Let's just look at the neighborhoods my business operates in. If I have one store here and one store there, like how different are those markets? They're diverse, not because they're different neighborhoods. We're not even pegging down to where people come from.

They're just in different locations. So those are important things I think we, we actually need to think about when we talk about will my business have impact? You have to think about what kind of impact you want, where you gonna be impactful? What are the things you need to be an impact in those areas?

And I think in inclusion or including as many possibilities will bring you a more diverse offering and more market penetration. That's how I think of it. Well, I like that perspective and you are limiting your potential. It, it kind of reminds me of, of the leaders that wanna be the smartest person in the room versus the leaders that say, I don't wanna be the smartest person in the room.

Yeah. Why limit your potential and your growth? Uh, you talk about impact and purpose, but bottom line, it's also dollars and cents. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's a, yeah, it's a huge, it's like having a dinner party. Do you wanna be the only person at your dinner party? Are you the, i I mean, like, seriously, that's gotta be the most boring thing in the world.

Oh, you are the biggest narcissist in the face of the earth. But truthfully, I, you want different conversations. You want everybody to feel good and you want 10 people at the dinner party or 20 people at the dinner party. But it's not because everyone at the table is the same. It's because you said pull up a chair and sit with us.

'cause you have a different way of thinking and it's exciting conversation. I think when we, we, we, we cherry pick definitions and not understand words can have multiple definitions. We miss opportunity. So I, you know, I'm always big, you know, I'm a big storyteller. I use it to tell, I to, to express and convey thoughts.

Um, so for me it's, uh, the analogies is like, how many analogies can I come up to explain this? So it will make sense to people. Because I think if we don't try and understand, then the, you know, the limits are all there. All the ceilings, all the barriers, all the boxes. They're as tight as you want them to be.

I certainly don't wanna get into politics, even though I just said the word. But that is something so key I think, to understand people that think differently than you do. I have my opinions and I have to realize that I might not always be right. I think I'm usually right, uh, but I'm kidding actually. Uh, people based on their experiences, their lives, uh, where they come from, their heritage, so many things.

Yeah. We need to understand each other. We need to understand each other for so many reasons. Um, so many reasons tho Those are, are great points. And I guess we haven't really explained the company that you have been on the ground floor of building, which is P Stock. So tell us about what that is and how does this fit into the conversation that we're having?

So I have always, um, a little bit of an adventure, but p stock. Fits with me. So in, in, in my world, I have, and I love the word uncapable, I've always wanted to be a value to myself and to other people. So if I take that, you know, broad stroke, thought about myself, and then I like to do things that, so my tagline, I have a tagline, my own personal, I do dope stuff that moves the needle and I have fun.

Okay. Sometimes you have to repeat that. I love that because say it a little bit slower. 'cause um, sometimes that goes over my head and maybe the listeners too. But I heard that you do dope stuff. I like, that's killer. I do dope stuff that moves the needle and I have fun. So I always wanna be involved with things that are moving forward.

I, I, I, I don't see any reason for me to stand still the. That's the first part. Like, whatever I'm gonna do is gonna be dope. It's the best way I can put it. When I say moving the needle, I, you know, that goes to the standstill. And I want it to have effect in a positive way in my world. I have three children, I have family, I have friends.

I want this world to always get better. Um, growth is important to me. So, and the fun part is, I believe when you're pursuing something of consequence and importance and it moves you, you, you're enjoying it. You're enjoying it, even through the pain and the trials, you're enjoying it because it's, it's, it goes beyond happiness.

It goes to true joy. So. That's, you know, the, my tagline and what, and p stock fits into that. So we have a, we, we, we had key moments over the past six years, right? We had COVID, we had George Floyd, we had the political stuff. Whichever side you're on, irrespective. Um, there's just so much stuff that we have as a world dealt with.

And with that, with that thought, P stock emerged actually kind of before COVID Co. The idea hit before COVID started working with the network a little bit to see who would be interested in it. Finally launched the platform. I come on because the founders, there's two gentlemen, Steve Jones and Deshaun Brown.

Steve called me, he said, okay, Natalie, I figured out what I'm doing next and I think this is the time to jump on board. And that's when I, I joined it. And we have been moving strongly and passionately through ensuring we're getting content. Well, we're doing, let me step back and say we're doing three things.

Our first thing we did was launch a stock photography platform that's all positive imagery, people of color, and different ethnicities, different cultures. So whether you're looking for, uh, the yoga master who's sitting in the middle of Spain, but happens to be, you know, African, or you're looking for, uh, the woman who has, uh, is leading financial gains at a, a law firm.

You know, imagery like that. Something we just don't always see. Um. Some of my favorites are just, you know, the intersectionality ones where you're seeing just people of all different orientation, you know, ethnicity, just having happy moments because there's so much happy moments missed or important stuff like, uh, dosage.

We have imagery of proper dosing for a father to his daughter, you know, and, you know, when you think about healthcare medicine, no. And you need to explain that. I Please explain that to me. Dosing. Oh, okay. Sorry. So do when you, when you have to, if your child has diabetes and you have to give them medication, so you have to know how to hold the syringe properly to give them their medication, or a caregiver with an, with a elderly person.

You have to know how to, and a lot of the imagery that's out there is in accurate. So we really focused on accurate imagery. And positive representation. So that was the stock imagery platform. The second thing we did was actually, because we are connected globally to over a thousand, uh, creators, photographers, videographers, um, access to resources and studios all over the world, we launched P Studios.

So basically we'll do custom shoots, whether it's a video for an online ad or a print or ad social, we'll do an advertising or marketing shoot for you. And we've worked with, uh, a several big brands. The third thing we did, which is as of the end of last year, beginning of this year, is we began with all of the, the work with AI and the push to just.

Constantly reinvent. We realize that one of the most important things to do is to become involved in how these data sets are created, that change the a, that that train, that train the AI models. So we actually have several projects right now where we are building data sets to train AI model on things like skin color, um, tone from the lightest to the darkest, um, on hair texture, on facial features, on human flow.

So those are the three things that we have going on at Pakistan, which you can imagine is very exciting because it's really, it's so exciting. Like three things that really we need in this world right now. And we're sort of like, especially with AI work where you have to jump in at the beginning or somebody else is gonna create it differently, and then you're gonna have the continued problem of.

The ai, uh, generators not having authentic or real information or the proper information in order to output reality. So I've taken some notes here and, uh, so I just wanna back up a little bit to mm-hmm. Purpose and, you know, impacting the world. And we talked a little before, we recorded too, about the future.

It's not just us, it's the future generations. You said you have kids. Mm-hmm. I have a kid. And yes, we want to create a better world mm-hmm. Where we, you know, we respect each other and appreciate each other for who we are. Uh, and if you're listening and not watching, well, even, even if you're doing either one, check out p stock.com and it is POC.

STOC k.com and the imagery is very, you know, beautiful, creative, interesting. Mm-hmm. It's something that's different than you see in a lot of other places. I do wanna ask you, you brought AI up. Mm-hmm. I am. You know, I love ai. I use it all the time, but there are some big. Red flags for me. For one thing, when I see content generated by ai and I've tried creating content and I had a conversation with ai and I inputted something that I wrote a story, uh, an entire story.

And before I put that into ai, I asked AI how it would tell the story totally different. And I asked ai, what's the difference? And AI said, I'm not a human. I don't have the experience. I can't put things together like a human. So ai, it's continuing of course, to evolve. But um, I think we talk about being UNC Copyable.

I think being real in is going, you know, authentic is the big buzzword, but being real is, is gonna be huge. So, mm-hmm. I'm curious though, how ai, how you see AI as affecting the fact that images are generated through ai. Uh, I'm gonna put it simply. I'm gonna say human beings drive ai. Human beings are the actual original generator.

So if we are generating much, like we said, creating the data sets, then we have to remember our place in the equation. The AI isn't generating because it's doing it by itself, it's because we're feeding it. So if human beings remember, I, you know, in, in essence that I am the generation point, I'm the point of origin.

Then they don't succumb to ai. So to the point of ai, it said, I'm not human. I'm not gonna be able to give you that. And I've played with it too, the same way I've, like, I dumped a story, I was like, you know, can you finish this off for me? And they can't do it at all. It can't. I can't. They can't. And it won't, it cannot, we say it, it's not of they, it's an it.

And I have to constantly remember, this isn't my friend, it's a machine. Mm-hmm. So, but, and it, and, and it gives you back what you gave to it. It talks to you like you talk to it. So therefore, yes, it's going to feel comfortable and familiar. You know, I'm still the parent though, and this is still the child in my experiences.

And as I continue to develop as a human being will be always more. And I'm the one to give it. Now granted, it will process everything faster. It will pull out nuances for me if I ask it. But it is not gonna pull out the nuance until I ask it. That's the point of origination because it's not thought of a nuance.

Nuance is, nuance is a really good word. That is what it's missing the nuance. Um, yeah. And yeah, and you, I, I, you know, I, I play with it 'cause I'm like, where's the nuance? But I end up re if, even if even if I ask it, can you just clean this up? I end up rewriting it anyway. So it helps me because it, it may draw, you know, it'll edit a lot of stuff for me and it'll make it, like, if I take all these notes from calls and then I dump it in as like, kick it back to me in an organized fashion.

So I know what I said and wrote, but I'm still, I still end up changing half the things. And it, you know, the, the, I'm gonna say this, it was very funny. I was on one of them and I mentioned, um. Because I was trying to figure out where all the offices for this one Gen organization was like, 'cause it was on multiple contents and I was doing a project with them, so I just wanted to make sure I had the information correct.

It kicked back to me that Jakarta was in Africa. And I'm like, and they, AI makes big mistakes. The funniest one I think I saw is that it had the wrong date for Father's Day and I thought it said Monday it's Father's Day. And I'm like, okay, I know Monday is Father's Day. It's amazing how smart it can be, how much information and research and yet it'll miss something like that.

Jakarta. 'cause it's in Africa still, which is Indonesia, right? Yeah. It's, it is it? It's it's in, it's in Asia. Yes. So you are like sitting there going fact check, fact check. Yeah. So, you know, I, I think that, um. There's, and even those mistakes are because a human being was behind it. And so I think that's what it's important to hold onto, that we're the point of origination and when we're using this tool to remember that we are the point of origination.

'cause that'll also help us use it better and not be as afraid or scared. And then, you know, the, to the other point, it's like it's taking your data and using it and making it into something else. Those are gonna be really interesting questions in this play, in this space, but it's, it's already started to cite where it brings stuff from.

So it's still is a, it's still a tool that even in how it's bringing you the information and signing it, it's saying here's the human being that was the point of origination. And I think that's the way to think about it and go forward with it. You know, the future will be what it'll be. But if we take it a step at a time.

It is gonna outthink us in many, many ways, but it's not going to out-create us. Exactly. And so I have a, a couple questions I wanna get to before we run outta time. Yeah. I, I do have a question. I'm gonna give you both questions. Um, do you use AI then to generate images? And, but then the second part, which, which relates is how do you, you know, we talked about bringing your story to the brand and that's what does make you human.

And that's the part that's, UNC Copyable products and services can be copied. And so can ai, ai can spit out the same information for you as everyone else. So I'm curious, do you use AI for the actual image generation? And then how would you recommend people separating themselves from, um, ai? So, uh, I don't.

We're working on a couple of things that in some way, will you, we wanna bring more authenticity to imagery, but we don't want to eliminate the ownership of creativity. So I personally do not create images with ai, at least at this point. Um, mainly because I just don't, I, I've got this bank of photography that is just incredible.

So I have no reason to in a sense, but also, um, depending on the story, I'm, I'm looking to tell, I can see cleaning up and editing a photo, but I don't see it generating one. And there's been too many mistakes. So one of the shoots that P Stock did was for, uh, an agency called Inion. And it's gotten a lot of, um, acclaim that, that particular one, we had to do a shoot for it because AI.

They were looking for black surfers and the AI model kept delivering blonde, blue eyed males. They weren't even delivering female surfers. It was strictly blonde, blue eyed male. No Hawaiians. No, no, no. I mean, there were so many beautiful places to surf in the world, but, um, literally blonde, blue eyed male, that's all it knew.

The surf. So, you know, we did a photo shoot to sort of build a data set to correct, but actually they would, they just ended up using the photo. So this, that, to be said, it reminds me of, uh, when I've generated AI images, every image looks like a model. It almost looks like a Barbie doll figure for the woman, you know?

Mm-hmm. Tiny waist, big chested. And I'm constantly saying, wait, make her fatter, make her more normal. And, and she'll, they'll make it. Fatter. And it's like, that's not fat. That's just like five pounds more than, than skinny. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it is like, it, like it looks like it widened the image this way or this way.

My, I can't stand like looking for a Korean woman in an AI model is always the same face. It is. No matter what you do, you always get the same Korean face and God forbid you try to distinguish Korean from Chinese, from Japanese, from Indian, uh, it just, it goes, it, it, it's little heart melts into a ball and hides in a corner.

So it's one of the reasons I, I, I haven't done anything more, but I know that I will be doing more and hopeful it'll catch up. But you know, that's the whole project to make sure that we see real people if we're gonna be using this tool going forward. But I don't think you can discount that someone has to go out and take that photo.

And so far it, it's really, it's obvious, gosh, I, I'm on Instagram. I actually took it off my phone for a while because I'm too into it, and they are creating these really, you know, far fetched scenarios. I saw one recently, there's a bear that comes to someone's house and the dog is barking, but really scared of the bear, and a little kitten comes out and scratches the bear on the nose and the bear runs away and mm-hmm.

It's, mm-hmm. It's then a little logo pops up that it's Sora, SORA, but it kind of flashes that if you're not paying attention, so, mm-hmm. Really, right now. You can still tell, but even if you can't tell, there's a difference. There's a difference. And that I wanna touch as we, uh, are getting toward the end of the, the interview.

Mm-hmm. You talked about you are a storyteller. Mm-hmm. I think we all need to be storytellers because even if someone tries to copy you mm-hmm. Even if they do the same things that you do, which it's probably possible not exactly, no one can copy your story and your background and what you've experienced.

So how do you recommend as listeners, how do they we use our stories to separate us. So I, I think we, so that's a great question. I think that we have to look at our value set, what we've done and what we're trying to achieve. And that's how we build our story. Everyone's story is unique. Absolutely. 100%.

Because unless we were walking like tied together like a three legged race, we are not experiencing the same thing. And even then in a three legged race, I see this much. You see that much, right? Right. So what's gonna happen? We still have different perspectives, only because you're like half a step away from me.

I think it's important to remember that. I think that people forget that they're unique. We are unique down to our gene pool. You have to remember you're unique. And that could be anything that's for everybody. Like I could be this shy individual that's the introvert and never wanna talk to a soul, but that doesn't mean my experience isn't as beautiful as wonderful.

It's just different. I think we need to stop comparing ourselves to, because you know, there's a lot of flash and a lot of sensation and we wanna compare and compare and compare. I think the best thing for young folks especially is not to compare. Yours is just an, you know, books on a shelf. Yours is, here's your book and here's that person's book and how you applied yourself in your book.

Yeah, sure. They could have done something differently is, and you could have said, oh, I wish I had that idea. Absolutely not. Not saying that, not saying that you can't see and and grasp inspiration from all these other places, but remember, they're inspiration. They're not you. So I think when we talk about story storytelling and we look at ourselves, I think it's important to remember what is it that was un is unique to us.

I'm okay being that shy little girl who's an introvert. I'm okay being the boy who's tall but doesn't play basketball. But I can tell you about basketball because I love it. Then that's my story. Not that I play, but, but I love the game. But you appreciate it. Yeah. And, and I feel like that's what P stock is representing too, that we all have different experiences, different stories.

Mm-hmm. And we should honor that. And as I said, it's not only that we all wanna make an impact on the world. Mm-hmm. We wanna impact the future too. And we are all different. And yeah. Celebrating the differences right down to what the images we see, that's huge. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I told you social media, I mean, of course social media comparing is mm-hmm.

So big on social media. I've heard the most beautiful, successful people saying, gee, I don't feel good about myself when I see social media. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. I mean, I, I always think as human beings, we look out, that's why our eyes go this way and not this way. So we're looking out. And so enjoy that.

Enjoy that. If you, because if you look out, it's to look forward. It's not, and they're not in the back of your head either, right? Your eye, your ears are this No, they're in front of you. Yeah, they're in front of you. So you can see forward. And I think that appreciating who we are comes from, you know, like I said, from our gene pool, from looking at how we're built and then keeping ourselves in that direction.

And even if we go back to the analogy of the dinner table, each person sits there and brings a story, an experience, a thought. They connected dots differently than I did. And that's like, oh yeah. And then you find inspiration. 'cause everyone at that dinner table is UNC Copyable. So. That, that's a great point to, to end on.

I, I just, I'm fascinated by the fact that, uh, there are 7 billion people in the world and no, no two people have the same fingerprint. We all are. I love that. I know. I just found it out. It's crazy. And even twins, when twins are cer first conceived and separate, they are exactly like, but even factors in the womb, uh, through that journey, they, they are born different.

So we are all different. And so that's something to be celebrated, not to be ashamed or stifled. So I've, I, I love this. You know, I wanna say one more thing. I think people get afraid of sharing their story or sharing their insights and stuff. And I'm like, you don't have to be afraid. Uh, they, they kind of lessen themselves, I guess.

It's like, it's not as important as this person's story, so when we talk about comparison, but it is because 7 billion people in the world, 7 billion stories. My story might only pertain to 100 of them, but to those hundred people, it's important. So don't think of your story as this narrow, unnecessary thing.

Your story is gonna affect some circle of friends, some circle of people, your workforce, however you wish to put forth. But it's not meant to influence 7 billion people. It's meant to influence the few that need it. So share it. That's a great message. Share your uniqueness and your story. As you said, we don't have to impact, you know, a billion people, a thousand people, you know, just a few people.

We can make such a difference to. I love what you're saying. And, uh, Natalie, I really appreciate this conversation for you being on the show. And again, I wanna talk about or give credit a shout out to Nicole Spiegel. Thank you, Nicole, for this great recommendation and it's been a pleasure and blessing to talk with you.

So, uh, NA uh, Nath show. Where should people go besides p do.com to find you? They can also look for me on LinkedIn. I'm back on LinkedIn. I was off for a little while, so my network is building again. But feel free. It's Nath Haywood on LinkedIn. It's linkedin.com/in/nathalieheywood and Heywood is H-E-Y-H-E-Y.

So hey, not, hey, like, hey, it's a piece of wood Nathalie, thank you once again. I really appreciate you being on the show. Thank you so much. Kay. It was an honor to be here, and I love the book, and I, I, I want, I wanna see more from you. Kay. I wanna see more looking for a follow up plan here. Thank you. I'm just gonna stop because sometimes