ChangED
ChangED is an educator based podcast for Pennsylvania teachers to learn more about the PA STEELS Standards and science in general. It is hosted by Andrew Kuhn and Patrice Semicek.
ChangED
STEM Education: The Braided River Approach
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Unlock the secrets behind creating holistic STEM learning environments with our insightful guest, Dr. Stephanie Schwab, a STEM program administrator at Montgomery County Intermediate Unit. Through our conversation, Stephanie introduces the compelling concept of the "braided river," challenging traditional notions of workforce development pathways and emphasizing the importance of nurturing STEM-literate citizens. Dive into the collaborative efforts of diverse sectors in supporting vibrant STEM education ecosystems that transcend classroom walls.
In this episode, we discuss the importance of prioritizing collaboration over competition and the value of sharing best practices to inspire rather than duplicate efforts. Reflecting on the "braided river" analogy, we highlight the role of educational service agencies and servant leadership in fostering collective growth. Our conversation closes with a powerful reminder: providing opportunities for all students to visualize their future is crucial, as students can't aspire to roles they are not exposed to. Don't forget to subscribe and join the conversation on social media as we continue to explore these vital topics.
Want to send us a show idea or just say hi? Email us at: thechangedpodcast@gmail.com!
Welcome back to Change Ed, your favorite podcast, talking all things education. I'm your host, andrew Kuhn, education consultant from Montgomery County Intermediate Unit, and here with me.
Speaker 2Patrice Semichak, an educational consultant from the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit.
Speaker 1We have an awesome show today. We're going to talk about really great things.
Speaker 2Things we haven't talked about at all before, which is kind of cool.
Speaker 1No, there are a lot of behind-the-scenes things, so many behind-the-scenes things that have to happen. All Sunlanders have to fire together to make education what it is, and so we get to highlight one of those things today Welcome to the show boss.
Speaker 3Thank you. It's great to join you.
Speaker 1We are super excited to have you. If you don't mind introducing yourself to our listeners and tell them who you are and what you do, that'd be great.
Speaker 3I am Stephanie Schwab. I'm a STEM program administrator at Montgomery County Intermediate Unit and through that role, there's many different hats that I wear supporting districts with anything related to STEM curriculum, instruction, assessment and professional development. Being an executive team member for PA SEED, which is SEED stands for STEM Experiences, for Equity and Diversity, and I'm an executive team member of that, as well as the assistant director for the Pennsylvania statewide STEM ecosystem, and then the statewide lead for the chief science officer's student program that has just expanded statewide this year as well.
Speaker 2And she has to wrangle the two of us. I do. On a daily basis, which is probably way more work than she gets paid for.
Speaker 1I was going to say for clarity for all of our listeners Steph works 300 hour weeks.
Speaker 2She does not sleep. 250 of those are keeping us in check.
Speaker 1Steph, a lot of your work is, yes, wrangling us, and that's kudos to you. Another thing I want to say actually before you can get into that is you are a big part of this podcast as well. Your support and encouraging us to do this work and have these conversations and I think that's a lot of what we're going to get into today is this these learning ecosystems and how they work and how we have discourse amongst educators and how we encourage conversations to happen. You shared the PA seed kind of what does that mean? A little bit more, maybe even from a structural standpoint. How did it start? How?
Speaker 2did it come together? What is an ecosystem? When you say ecosystem, I think outside, in nature, and from what I know about the ecosystems, it feels very similar to that. So what is a ecosystem?
Speaker 3Yeah, so the terminology does come from the nature word of ecosystem, and that idea of people and organizations from all different sectors play a part when we're talking specifically about learning in students' learning experiences. So we know from research that students learn everywhere and anywhere in multiple modes. So students are, of course, learning in our K-12 school systems. They're also learning though before school and after school, maybe in an official program, maybe at home, Maybe they are attending science institutes like our museums or one of our local partners with Audubon, or maybe students are going to the YMCA or the libraries or they have a higher ed education experience. And so the STEM learning ecosystems came together officially to be able to support all students with their STEM learning experiences.
Speaker 3So it's connected and coherent. How do we bring all of those sectors together to support students and in the STEM world? It's kind of twofold, in the sense that, yes, there's a lot of jobs out there that will require STEM skills and we're working to fill, instead of pipeline I'll throw a new term out there braided river and what it looks like for workforce as well but at the same time, which I think is even more important, is building STEM literate citizens. So much of what we have to do as adults, in the way we have to think and what we have to do, we need to be able to understand what's happening and make those decisions to be able to be successful. How are you going to be an effective juror and a voter consumer in your own home without being STEM literate? It's not really going to be possible with the way our world has been changing. It's a really good point.
Speaker 1I really like that term braided river.
Speaker 2Yeah, what is that?
Speaker 1about. Yeah, I wonder if you could just talk a little bit more with that.
Speaker 3It's really. We've always called it a pipeline, right, well, a pipeline. If you visualize that is just a straight shot from one place to another. You might have a left turn or a right turn to get to other pipes, but if you think of workforce as a braided river, your visual then is this idea of I have my main river with all of the sub streams and creeks and everything that could flow into it sub streams and creeks and everything that could flow into it and so we think of it more as like on shoots and off ramps and things like that, that my career is not going to be a linear straight path like a pipeline would be.
Speaker 3Also on top of that is really this idea of STEM learning, ecosystems and how all those sectors are involved and that you know K to 12 can work to support filling the jobs that are needed, but we also need to know from business and industry it so that they're complementing each other and really giving students a strong foundation and experience around STEM literacy.
Speaker 2I'm using that phrase forever. I love it.
Speaker 3There is an article out there that I can share with you guys about where it came from. I was introduced by a former podcast member that you guys then too is about where it came from. I was introduced by a former podcast member that you guys have had, jeff Remington. It's conversations that we have had before in the past. And when I learned about it from him, it really resonated well with me. And it's something that we've been thinking a lot more about as well.
Speaker 1Especially with the whole ecosystem concept it really pulls it all together so that it makes sense.
Speaker 2Well, and we've been talking about for a long time and by a long time I mean the whole 10 months we've been doing this but we've been talking about it about how the future looks very different and not our kids are not going to be in a career for 40 or 50 years the way that, you know, our parents or grandparents were. Like most of us aren't even in the same career for even within education. So it's interesting. I like it because there enter and different ways they can go somewhere else. I really like it. I really like that.
Speaker 1With that idea of that it's not just a one-way road anymore. It's like a super highway and there are different on-ramps and off-ramps, and just because you get off doesn't mean you can't get back on, and your time on there and what it looks like is different for every single person. So this concept matches very nicely with a lot of conversations we've been having, including conversations that we're having in the AI world, so we're seeing a braided river within our own podcast and these conversations that we're having, they're all connecting together.
Speaker 1When you have them in isolation, they seem like they're separate, but they all actually connect together and feed into one another.
Speaker 2So that kind of leads me to my next question about the ecosystem itself. It feels like, from what you said about what an ecosystem is, it feels like the job or the purpose of the ecosystem is to do exactly what Andrew just said is to help bring a lot of people together from industry, from education, from all these different places, to make a more cohesive experience. Am I interpreting that right?
Speaker 3You are, and I think it's also about the process and not necessarily coming up with a product all the time.
Speaker 3And so how do we put people in a space to have conversation? And so every sector has their goals that they want to achieve, and every business and every school district everybody has those. The importance is bringing people into a space to talk about that and, at the same time, being a good listener, because the goal of the ecosystem isn't about us trying to push initiatives on others. The goal is what are the areas of growth, what are the things that are going well, what are the needs and how can we discuss those among all of the sectors and determine ways to support each other. And maybe it is just having conversations and listening and asking questions. Maybe once you determine what the need is and everyone comes together for ways to solve it, and then there is an official product that's coming out.
Speaker 3But really the key is putting yourself in spaces to have conversations and listen and figure out who can you connect to, who, who's already experiencing things, and for our ecosystem, with PAC, what's really great is we are made up of the four counties that surround Philadelphia Bucks, chester, delaware, montgomery counties and each of the intermediate units has an executive team member like myself, and we come together to be kind of like the backbone of the organization, but in reality our goal is really to be the conveners of all of the other sectors and help to put a little bit of structure to it so that that can happen. It's not about us trying to push an IU agenda or anything like that.
Speaker 3It's we really talk about that idea of being conveners and bringing people together and ideally, yes, in person is great, but it doesn't always have to be that way. There's lots of ways to make that happen and really just being open, sharing conversation and realizing that we're working collectively right. So the ecosystem model is also built off of two foundational principles the collective impact model and communities of practice, and so those two models come together to really give us the foundation and some structure for how to operate so that we can tackle which is the goal of PAC to tackle problems that we couldn't tackle on our own. Which is the goal of PAC to tackle problems that we couldn't tackle on our own, and how do we really try to improve society for our students and others that are in that and give them that space to learn and grow?
Speaker 1My question has totally changed because I was going to go in a completely different direction, but then you said that the collective impact model and the communities of practice correct those are the two things. In general, how do those two work? Because you said it kind of informed the work that you all do. So what would be the 2,000-foot view maybe for each of those, of kind of the guiding principles or the philosophy that's behind them?
Fostering Collaborative STEM Ecosystems
Speaker 3So collective impact is really basically achieving something that you can't by yourself, and when you bring everyone together to have who have the same goals, the same concerns, the same beliefs, you bring them together and you work towards solving problems. Communio practice is very similar and it's that idea of bringing people together in the space and having conversation, and so when you layer them together, it's the way you bring people together and the way you meet so that you can have a collective impact on your region.
Speaker 1What I really like about that is that my favorite proverb of all time is a Kenyan proverb, which is alone I go fast, together we go far. So now I can say to people and sound really intelligent and say well, it's a collective impact model, right, and instead of I would always like it would take me three minutes, like explaining the proverb, but now, now I, and then I'll back it up with a proverb, so I appreciate that gift, thank you very much dropping some knowledge.
Speaker 1You're welcome now the question where that I was going to go through before. That was what has been one of the most impactful things that you've seen or experienced working in these ecosystems, and it doesn't have to just be this one, because I know you're in multiple ecosystems for me becoming part of the STEM learning ecosystems community of practice international organization, who really helped to put structures in place and bring the ecosystems together.
Speaker 3Through being a part of that group, we were able to learn about the chief science officers program, and that program was started out in Arizona in their ecosystem at SciTech Institute, and we were lucky enough, as PAC, when the advancing grants came out in 2018, to be awarded one, and so we were able to start our own chief science officer cabinet here within our ecosystem. And by doing that, we learned that outside sectors and others who are not necessarily tied in education are more receptive to asks about students than they are to asks for other things, and so we were able to say so. We have these group of students who want to be leaders in STEM, who want to have a voice in STEM, who want to advocate for STEM education. Here's what we're thinking. Would you be on a panel to share about your job and your journey? Would you host them at your site so they can learn about what happens within your organization? Could we come to your community college to learn about all of those programs? And the resounding answer is always yes. The only time it's a no, is if the campus is closed, they're trying to move into a new building, right. So those logistical type things, so that chief science officer program and having students that we were strongly focused on helped us to make more connections within our ecosystem and help to broaden it.
Speaker 3And then when we saw the impact of the chief science officer program, I continued to push and push at our department of education to say we need to expand this statewide. And then we got lucky enough this past year where we were granted that opportunity and have now expanded chief science officers to 27 of the 29 intermediate units in Pennsylvania so we can have a larger impact on students. And what's interesting for me in all of that too is not only did it help our ecosystem, it helped those individual school districts that had chief science officers, because they are now listening to their students, which is ultimately our client right and so we get to hear from them what what it really means and what they're looking for. But then they're implementing action plans where they're working in the community. Maybe they're working in a library.
Speaker 3You know one of our, one of our chief science officer cohorts at Satterton. They, for two years in a row now, have gone to the Boys and Girls Club and they bring every high school club that's related to STEM to those students so they can learn about what all the opportunities will be like when they get to the high school. So that program allows the impact on the community as well as the students, allows you to grow those connections and those networks, have those conversations with people, and so for me, that program is the best that we could have become a part of and has really helped us to work on that Braided River a little bit and make those connections in various spaces for our students. That's huge.
Speaker 1I would say that one of the things that I'm hearing you say, and the thing that is just coming to my mind, is that these ecosystems are really everywhere and that they're meant to be organic and localized, yes, but the localization can grow.
Speaker 1And I guess what I was thinking about that was that environmental literacy and sustainability. We're talking about me-wees and how all rivers and water all kind of ended up flowing together, but the impact that you have in your area could impact down the river, have a bigger impact. The other thing I was thinking was that I live on a street and that street is part of a town, which is part of a community, which is part of a county state and then part of a nation, and how it can get bigger and bigger and bigger and the impact could be bigger. But being able to be localized has an impact on the rest of that kind of community in that area. And so, going back to that idea of pathways, right pathways in for these conversations, so that we can strengthen each other and learn from one another, so this learning community, but also the the importance of the integration. So taking that you know this concept in education when we talk so much about STEM, and how do we integrate all?
Speaker 1of this learning, but then also this practice. This is happening outside of the classroom so that we start integrating together intentionally. So it's not just something that happens in one spot, it's a local, intentional effort for us to do that on all fronts and in all ways.
Speaker 3Yeah, I think one of the things to add to that in ideal, in my ideal world, every one of the school districts within PA seed would have their own ecosystem. Because you're connected regionally to the needs of your community, then we most have higher education somewhere nearby, if not directly in their school district. Right, it's close, maybe that's the County piece of it, but within there, the school district, there's lots of businesses, there's usually some type of before and after school programming that's happening somewhere. There could be the library, it could be a historical site that wants to become part of the learning. So there's that potential to have every school district develop an ecosystem but yet then come together as a county so that we're complementing and trying to scale with each other.
Speaker 3When you find something that works well, we don't want to keep it to ourselves, because we also know that, yes, we want our students to stay in Pennsylvania, but they may not necessarily be coming back to their hometown, but we would like them to stay in the area, and so the more we can meet that specific need of the students where they live but also expose them to what's available regionally and having those partnerships, and to me it comes back to working smarter, not harder. We don't all have to replicate all of the programs, but we need to know what works in our areas of need and what has been successful, so that we can either scale it to the same demographic areas or we can say you know what? We need to tweak it a little bit so that it fits what our need is within our region. And it's having that open-mindedness to hear how things have been working and then to compare it to what your areas of need and areas of growth are and then figuring out the best way to move forward.
Speaker 2And removing the competition aspect of it 100%, that's what I really love about everything you've said about ecosystems, even leading up to today, is that it is about coming together, not isolating, and that, I think, is something that is so healthy and so needed in a lot of our spaces. So I think it's really important that we continue down this path. Is every NPA seed, is every school district represented in PA seed, or is it like? How does that work?
Speaker 3Yeah, so, structurally, we've been having numerous conversations, and when we came together, we all, from each of the four counties, brought the current partners we all had because we were doing some of this work, and what was really great about that is some of us had stronger partnerships with higher education, some of us had stronger partnerships with informal education, some of us had some business partnerships, and so when we came together, it allowed us to really have a mixture of groups, and so we wanted to form a leadership council, and we knew the ultimate impact is our students. However, having 67 school district representatives at the table from the beginning, Not feasible?
Collaboration in STEM Ecosystems
Speaker 3It's not feasible and it's also overwhelming to all the other sectors, and we didn't want domination from any one sector, and so in the beginning, we each chose two to three districts. There was an application and those who wanted to be interested in it invested, and that's how it got started and we're coming out of COVID and that we are working towards. What does it mean to be on leadership council?
Speaker 3What does it mean to be a member? What does it mean to just participate in the services? So all of my colleagues who are on the executive team, we share everything with all of our school districts so that they have the awareness and they can participate, and sometimes we will do specific programmings, like we've done hackathons in the past, where it's been available to all school districts. So that idea of how do you participate is something that we're continuing to work on, as I know many other ecosystems are as well, and we've been having a conversation recently about is it the person or the organization? And where do we fit with all of that? Because if a person leaves which, as we talked, raided River we don't all stay in the same place for a long time. Well, if that person goes, what happens to the partnership with that?
Speaker 2organization per se.
Speaker 3Some of that makes it harder to define membership per se in the ecosystem. It's interesting.
Speaker 1One of the things that we hit on and actually I wrote this down at the same time that you had mentioned this, patrice is I wrote down collaboration, not competition, and I think what's so important is that for most of our lives growing up and I think this is subject to change because of all the things that we've been talking about that it is more of a braided river concept, not a single stream concept, but it was a single stream. We all were in this competition to be like well, I want to be in the front of the single stream, I don't want to be in the pack, I want to be out in front, and so sharing ideas was viewed as like well, then I'm giving them the good stuff, they're just going to do what I do. And, honestly, my best moments of collaboration were when someone shared an experience or shared something they had done, and then it sparked an idea. It wasn't that I was like I don't want to duplicate what you did, but that gave me an idea, or that that provided inspiration, and so that's really what I'm hearing out of.
Speaker 1This is like we're sharing best practices, we're sharing what's working for us and then it might not work for you. Again, it's localized. So this might not work in your spot, but for us this worked. And here were the factors and also being able to say narrow down or name the variables, like here were the variables that we addressed, because there are so many all the time.
Speaker 3I think it goes back to what we were talking a little bit ago in the proverb right, I go farther together than I do on my own, and it's not about being that shining star that's out there. And I think for us working in education service agency we also get that a little bit more because a lot of us are servant leaders and it's not necessarily about myself or what happens to me or even our organization per se.
Speaker 3It is about that impact we're having on others and our others growing. And that's not the mentality all over no, we know it's not. And that's what makes this work. We'd say it's messy work, it's challenging work, it's time consuming work, but in the end the impact is absolutely worth all of that work.
Speaker 1Well, Steph, we are near our.
Speaker 2We could talk for hours. Yeah, clearly, this is really interesting.
Speaker 1We're near the end of our 15-ish leaning on the ish minutes together Hardcore. Do you have any final thoughts that?
Speaker 2you'd like to share. Second to last.
Speaker 1Final thought Second to last final thought, something that you didn't get to share earlier.
Speaker 2Andrew doesn't let the guests have the final thought.
Speaker 3I'm not surprised by that, though, either.
Speaker 1Man, it's getting real in here.
Speaker 2It's getting real Deep insights into MCAU.
Speaker 3One of the things that I have taken with me from the beginning when it comes to students and I heard this at the very first convening I went to with STEM Ecosystems from an aviation business leader and the statement of kids can't be what they can't see, and that, for me, is really what helps to drive all of the work that we do and opening their eyes to all of the possibilities. So how do we give all students access and opportunity so they can dream about who they can be?
Speaker 2Exclamation point yes.
Speaker 3Mic drop.
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 2Okay, let's see if you can top that sir.
Speaker 1Well, boss, thanks for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 2You're welcome.
Speaker 3Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1And for your final thoughts.
Speaker 2Dang it.
Speaker 1they were good and major takeaways that I had from our conversation was this collective impact model and working together within that, being focused on the process, not always the product. There could be a product that's involved, but you don't have to have a product to start the process and collaboration, not competition. What does that look like?
Speaker 2And.
Speaker 1I think we're going to see that change in our lifetime or morph together in some way. And last but not least, was this braided river concept. How strong that was. It really is a strong visual, so we want to thank all of our listeners, as always, for tuning in. Make sure that you like and share.
Speaker 2Subscribe oh subscribe, not like I always say like you can like it on social media, you can like it on social media but we don't have.
Speaker 1Right, social media, you can like it on social media, don't have right. We have a like button.
Speaker 2We don't have a like button on the podcast and we want to remind you to contribute to your bridged river by finding and plugging into your ecosystem. Oh, that's not bad there. Hers was better, though not gonna lie, oh thanks I'm not just saying it because she signs our paychecks. Come on now.
Speaker 1I said, I'm not just saying it no, she's nice, she's pretty honest, I'm pretty honest especially when it comes to Andrew.