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ChangED
ChangED is an educator based podcast for Pennsylvania teachers to learn more about the PA STEELS Standards and science in general. It is hosted by Andrew Kuhn and Patrice Semicek.
ChangED
The Struggle Zone: Where Learning Truly Happens
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What happens when we stop viewing struggle as a problem and start seeing it as the essence of learning itself? In this thought-provoking conversation with educator and neurodiversity advocate Greg, we unpack the revolutionary idea that our most profound learning emerges not from smooth sailing but from navigating challenges.
Greg opens with a refreshingly honest self-introduction: "I was a student who struggled and I became a teacher who struggled." This vulnerability immediately sets the tone for an authentic exploration of how educational approaches that honor struggle create more inclusive and effective learning environments. Rather than positioning himself as an untouchable expert, Greg models the very approach he advocates for - acknowledging struggle as the fertile ground where genuine learning takes root.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Greg reveals the natural alignment between modern educational standards and neurodiversity-friendly approaches. Pennsylvania's STEELS Standards (based on NGSS) create multiple entry points for learners through phenomena-based instruction, collaborative problem-solving, and emphasis on questioning rather than answer-seeking. Greg notes that if you asked one team to design a curriculum for modern science education and another to create one for diverse learners, "they would both come out with exactly the same thing" - a powerful testament to how well-designed standards naturally accommodate neurodiversity.
Perhaps the most compelling metaphor Greg shares is viewing "answers as stop signs and questions as green lights." This philosophy transforms classroom dynamics from knowledge transmission to collaborative investigation where diverse thinking styles become assets. When educators value curiosity above correctness, they create spaces where neurodiverse students can truly thrive.
Ready to transform your approach to teaching and learning? Join us at the 3rd annual STEELS Expo on Tuesday, May 20th. Experience firsthand how embracing struggle, honoring questions, and implementing modern standards can create learning environments where all students flourish. Keep listening to the end for a Big Announcement about this year's STEELS Expo. To register for the MCIU STEELS Expo visit learn.mciu.org/expo25 (registration closes on 5/1/25).
Want to send us a show idea or just say hi? Email us at: thechangedpodcast@gmail.com!
Welcome to Change Ed
Speaker 1Welcome back to Change Ed, the number one education podcast that you are listening to at this moment. My name is Andrew Kuhn, I am an education consultant from Montgomery County Intermediate Unit and here with me is Patrice Semerjack, also an education consultant from the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit.
Speaker 1Patrice, if I was listening to this podcast, there are two things I would be thinking about. First, my first question would be how come this podcast didn't come out at seven o'clock in the morning like all the other ones? Do you guys have been dropping the ball lately? And to that we would say it's Andrew's fault? Or we would say we've been experimenting with our creativity?
Speaker 2No, like, why are we lying to them? The two people that listen, don't lie to them.
Speaker 1Mom, you know what happened. You know the truth. We were letting our idea on what to do for this episode marinate yeah, and it marinated so well that all you can taste is the marination.
Speaker 2You are such a liar that's not true.
Speaker 1No, you actually had the idea that we should do what we're doing now, which is the…. Reuse an episode. Reuse an episode.
Speaker 2Because once again we are….
Speaker 1I was the one who was letting it marinate. It marinated, and here we are. Past time recording a new entry for this.
Speaker 2So it's again, again. I was right, your fault tomato, tomato.
Speaker 1and the second thing they're wondering is why are we reusing this? And honestly, there's a lot of reasons. Number one this is like a good book or a good movie. When you listen to it another time, you see things that you didn't see before. So when we first recorded this and I listened to it, I was only looking at it from a neurodiversity standpoint. I was listening for that, okay, but when you forced me to listen to it again to prove your point that we could reuse this episode, I heard it and I actually heard all of these parts when it came to curiosity, which happens to be our theme for the expo so there's all these hints in there.
Speaker 1Wow, and I maybe we give partial credit to greg for the theme give for this year's expo coming from these nuggets that he dropped for us and was waiting for us to pick them up. Even if it's last minute, we pick those nuggets up.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 1So what we want you to know is that you may have already listened to this, but have you?
Speaker 2Maybe, or maybe we're doing like we do with reading and we're doing a second close read.
Speaker 1Right, because there's more in there, but you wouldn't know, because you don't read. Right? Is that a picture book?
Speaker 2I mean, this is all just sounds, so I think you're okay here.
Speaker 1Okay so poor listener yep, we're so excited that you're here still hanging in with us.
Speaker 2They made it however long. This is three minutes of us being non-intelligent and we're.
Greg Introduces His Educational Journey
Speaker 1The thing I want you to know before we send this to greg is that we want you to listen through to the end, because there is a big expo announcement at the end Before we get started. We also want to say for this year's expo another reason that this makes sense is that Amplify is one of our platinum partners and we're super excited to be partnering with them.
Speaker 1We've been partnering with them for years, continue to partner with them, and so hearing from them and getting a good idea of their mindset before we get to the expo with that was really important so I think the best way to start this off with greg is to ask him a question, and we're going to play like heads and tails. So heads is true, tails is false. So heads? His response is um hey, so great to be here. And he asked a question.
Speaker 2You are such a butt.
Speaker 1That's true and false. I'll be like he'll laugh at me. Yeah, that would be false, okay.
Speaker 2We're reusing audio. You know what you're doing. Heads, or tails.
Speaker 1Truths or false? That's not true. I don't know what he's going to do. I didn't listen to all of it, even though I I actually played it three times. So, greg, what is happening? True or false.
Speaker 2No, are you about to ask the question? Who's the favorite?
Speaker 1No, I won't do that. Greg, true or false, this is the best podcast you've ever been on today. And remember, if it's true, he's going to say, hey, so great to be here. If it's false, he's going to laugh and say you say you're so funny, andrew.
Speaker 2This is why people can't trust the media well, let's just see what he says hey, it's so great to be here how you guys, you guys doing Good.
Speaker 1It is a great day.
Speaker 2Great day Happy.
Speaker 1Monday Happy.
Speaker 3Monday.
Speaker 1Greg, if you don't mind just giving us a little bit of your background. We know you have a lot of experience coming with you in an array of areas and you're a well-sought after person in many realms of education. So if you don't mind just giving us a brief overview, that'd be great.
Speaker 3Sure, it was funny. I was thinking about this the other day. There's usually a moment when you're doing a workshop or you're presenting where they just by default, they want your bio slide up there. It gives you highlights. I've honestly always wanted to just make one that says I was a student and I struggled and I became a teacher and I struggled, because it's kind of like the struggle is where so much of the learning that I've done has come out of that. But to give you just a very quick, more traditional one, I was a student who struggled and at some point I really said to myself okay, there's a way to do this. I don't know what it is. Okay, there's a way to do this. I don't know what it is, but it made me want to pursue that and I had a couple of really influential teachers and I just kind of it was almost like I never made a decision to teach.
Speaker 3I always knew it was there and so I got to do that. And I've done that in a little bit of time in private school, in a charter school in Texas and then at Dallas ISD. So I got to really work with students with learning differences and it was just the most meaningful stuff I've ever done.
Speaker 2So I love that.
Speaker 2You said that the learning happens in the struggle, and one of the things that we talk a lot about with the Pennsylvania they're called steel standards, but NGSS is really what it comes down to is we as educators.
Learning Through Struggle
Speaker 2The shift in my mind has to be we have to stop stealing our students' struggle, because the struggle is where the learning takes place, and when we stand and deliver, too often we're giving them everything and we're not allowing them opportunities to struggle and to learn. And sometimes we associate the idea of struggle with negativity and in reality we can shift that mindset so that when we see a struggle, it's when we're creating new pathways in our brain and we're getting more wrinkles in our brain. And that's the way I would describe it to my own kids is that I can't give you everything, because I want you to have the wrinkliest brain possible, and the way to do that is to have some struggle and to learn through what you're going through. So I really appreciate you saying I was a student who struggled and a teacher who struggled, and now that's where I learned to all of the learning happened. I love that.
Speaker 1You know, greg, through all the conversations we've had, one thing really resonates with me about you and your personality is that you're a very reflective person and you find very meaningful analogies to connect the learning. So it always comes off as so genuine right. When you said I was a student and I struggled and I was a teacher and I struggled, that's like I mean, that's just, that's raw right, like here it is. This is really how it went for me. There's not sugarcoating it, this is how it was. I think what I appreciate is the way that you draw people in as well with that vulnerability that you show as well.
Speaker 3Yeah, thanks so much. I found that when I was a teacher for a long time and we would have people come in and talk to us you know different workshops, different PD I found that the more they knew and the more they establish themselves like hey, I'm an expert in this and it would make me less likely to participate, because I was like, wow, this person coming in really knows their stuff. But it's like when I open up and say, wow, teaching is challenging and maybe it's easier to some of you and some other teachers I've worked with. But I find that when you lead with the things that you struggle, with the things that your work in progress, I really find that people want to get involved and they are so open to that and I think it's just a great way to connect because we're all feeling it right.
Speaker 2Yeah, they can see themselves in your, in your conversation. That's where I see the most impact.
Speaker 1And with our Steel Sanders. So much of it is about shifting our instructional practices, and you model that because you're being a lead learner and saying here's where I am, let's have a conversation. You're not saying I'm the expert, I know how to handle all this, I've been through it all. Here we go. Instead, you're inviting others to say hey, let's create this learning community right here, right now.
Speaker 2Let's do this together. We're really excited for your session at the expo.
NGSS and Steel Standards
Speaker 1You and I talked offline about your neurodiversity session that you provided. If I remember correctly and understood you correctly, this is something that you've been working on for a while, that you really wanted to work through, and I wonder if you can kind of take us through that process. How were you inspired and then what was the work? Development like Wow.
Speaker 3Okay, so I'm going to try not to turn this into a two hour podcast.
Speaker 2Totally fine. If you do Well, we're out of time.
Speaker 1Thanks so much.
Speaker 3I just to give you a little bit for that day, when it was just so fortuitous where you guys walked in, I still had what I have a lot, which is the morning of. Up to me, a presentation or a session is never really finished. I'm always thinking about it. Could it be better? But the morning of I definitely still get the. Is anyone going to walk in the door?
Speaker 3anxiety Because there were times when you could say I'm going to focus. You know, you could be at an STA or regional conference and you could say I'm going to focus on diverse learners and a lot of mine have neurodiversity in the title, because I want people to know that's where I'm going to, the direction I'm going to go. I'm just so happy that now people are really receptive and it's like people are walking into the room and there were a time where it was more of a lift to get people, because if you look in the in most conferences you're up against five, 10, 15 other sessions in that time slot, all of which I would love to go to, you know. So it's a big, it's a big honor when, when someone walks in and I said, okay, I really want to give them something to walk away with. What I want to just say as briefly as I can is the reason why I love the steel standards more than anything else is really this Imagine if we had two teams of experts, of stakeholders, of teachers, of administrators, of parents, community members, and we asked the first team to go into a room and design a curriculum that's modern and it reflects how people do science, rather than you know historically how we teach and learn science.
Speaker 3If they come up with something modern and has a real connection to the workplace and the workforce and the 21st century, they would go in and do their work. Workplace and the workforce and the 21st century they would go in and do their work. And then if we ask the second team to design a curriculum completely built for diverse learners, for students who don't succeed in a lot of the traditional ways or traditional learning models, what I think is so amazing is they would both come out with exactly the same thing. They would both come out with steals because there's just so much overlap and it's a modern approach, but it's also an approach that has so much equity built right into it, so it's just such a great direction.
Speaker 2I love that. It has entry points for everybody right, like the way that you present a phenomenon. It has with the notice and the wonder and the prompting conversations and questions. It just opens it wide up. It's natural differentiation right, built it right in so you're getting your students who need more support as well as your students who are advanced learners into the same space and having these really great conversations where minds can be shifted and minds can be changed, as opposed to like I'm going to tell you what needs to be here and you have to regurgitate what I'm hearing. I agree with you. I think they blow the doors wide open for all learners.
Speaker 1We're teaching to all. The goal is teach to all, not to some.
Speaker 2And meet them where they're at.
Speaker 1And meet them where they're at right and invite them into the conversation so they can be part of the learning and part of the conversation. I really loved how you said that a session's never really finished, right, and that's a good, strong mindset for all of us to embrace, as students, as educators. It actually doesn't matter what you are doing or who you are that something's never really finished. Not that we can never have it be good enough, but there's always room to grow and to learn and to improve and I think that's actually built into Steels as well. There's always more questions we can ask. We can always be more curious.
Speaker 1Conversations or podcasts we have. We can find that we can go down a rabbit hole because somebody will bring something up and I'm like I have so many questions about that. That's like wow, Right, Like I'm curious, I'm interested, and I found that through NGSS and specifically through Steeles here in Pennsylvania, that I feel that I've been empowered empowered that it's okay to ask those questions, not that it's a nuisance or I'm frustrating someone or getting them off task and said, yeah, that's a great question. Let's lean into that, let's see what that is. Let's get a little bit more involved.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 3And you know it's funny that process of something a session never being finished I really get inspired by the groundwork of NGSS in one simple way.
Speaker 3Whenever I deliver, like a workshop, if I get asked a question and I absolutely love getting questions what my goal is is, the next time I deliver a similar workshop is to not get asked that question because I want to put it in my message and it's that almost sounds like I don't want questions, but it's almost like when I'm asked a question someone is saying, hey, this is important to me and you've left this out, and it's almost like I'm saying thank you, I need to know what I'm not addressing and I would much rather talk to what's on your mind than mine. So it's like I'm so grateful when hands go up or you know they don't have to raise hands when they. Just, I usually get a little bit of a chuckle when I say I've spent a lot of time in middle school, so I'm most comfortable when I'm being interrupted. I say I have a very lenient policy on eating in the session.
Speaker 2I love that. It also shows that they're super engaged in what you're talking about, because if I have a question, I'm processing what you're saying to me and I need to think about it and I want to get clarity and I'm excited enough about what you're talking about that I want to ask this question. I think that's important too for educators to keep in mind that questions aren't bad things. They're not questioning your authority or your thinking or any of that. They're questioning like they're engaged and excited to be learning what you're learning. I think that's a great idea.
Speaker 3Yeah, I find answers to be stop signs and I find questions to be the green light. Sometimes, especially when I was a newer teacher, I would say, oh, wow, I'm going to really challenge them here. And then someone's hand would go up and I would say, oh, okay, you're right, take out something to read. Yes, sometimes finding an answer, it's just like I love the shift where it's really saying what can we figure out here? What questions could we ask? Where can we take this? Because that's going to be unique to every student and it's a great feeling.
Speaker 1Well, and really even in sessions that we do now, it'll be the same thing. If somebody's seen a phenomenon even remotely related to what we're doing, we're like hold that right. Same thing that. I love how you said that that's a stop sign. I don't need the stop sign yet, I need the green light. Even a yellow light's fine. We want to engage in the learning and to build up those neurons, like build up the synapses. That's connecting it all and I want you to think through it.
Speaker 1I'm not looking for the answer yet. The answer can come, but also this strong acknowledgement that the answer is the answer today. But we could come into new information that could change that answer and we need to be prepared for that. What does that look like? It doesn't mean that it's rocking the foundation of everything in existence. It means that, well, we've gained new information. We are able to change our stance on things in light of new information, in light of things we've discovered. When you said about them asking questions, it made me think that, based off your philosophy and how you're doing it, you, I think, have a good idea of like the depth of the question indicates the depth of understanding. So if you've been able to continually to improve it. You're delivering a different and thereby an even better session, but then the questions you get, they go more and more in depth. You know that there is a deeper understanding for each session, that they understand it more.
Speaker 3Oh yeah, and it reminds me of sometimes I get looks when I say this, but like if you just sat down and read the steel standards and kind of went deep with it. It's really hard to do these things in isolation. These things lend themselves to collaboration. That's just so great because we're going to learn from one another, we're going to learn with one another, and I really want any time I get to speak to teachers too to be just as much of a collaboration, like I have this saying where it's only a presentation until the first person asks a question, because when that happens it becomes a conversation and it's just. Every teacher knows what it's like to draw up a plan and then maybe they're just not connecting with it. But when you see where they are connecting with, it's like, oh, I'm just going to go with this, go in that direction. Because it's like if you've got student engagement and it's okay to say we're going to pivot here and go left where I thought we'd go right you remove ourselves from the barrier when we pivot.
The Expo Announcement
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah and pivoting can be nerve-wracking in the moment, and even how we process as adult learners or process as educators. And to be able to empower yourself through that and say I need a minute. Whatever your process is, embrace your process. But there's a lot to be said about in-the-moment learning and in-the-moment education, which is why, when we have students, they're in person with us. We're teaching that group of students, instructing them, the students that are with us. Otherwise, you know you could record what you say and here's all the knowledge you need about this experience. But that's not how we've learned that the brain works and how we can engage students and engage learners. So, greg, we are at the end of our time. This has been our 15 minute-ish podcast with you and I would love to just put it up if, if you have any kind of a closing thoughts that you want to share or the ultimate teaser you're going to be bringing the circus with you. Everybody gets a free ticket.
Speaker 3I don't know whatever it may be, no pressure. Oh well, I'm looking forward to seeing everyone. I really am just so honored that I get to talk to you about something I'm really passionate about, both as a teacher and as a neurodiverse person, so I'm looking forward to seeing everybody. I love Philadelphia. I love Pennsylvania. It's really not the place to bring a diet, but I'm going to do my best to have a little bit of a cheat day.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, I was going to say don't come here.
Speaker 2Super easy to have cheat days in Philly yeah, it's super easy to have cheat days in Philly, yeah you shouldn't be coming here pre-beach season, but yet you are so good luck with that. One day isn't going to ruin your diet.
Speaker 1Yeah Well, Greg, I have a lot of things that I wrote down, and trying to give us a final thought on this is, very frankly, I'm not going to be able to do it justice. But there are two things that I wrote down and one is a final final thought. But before that, I want to say that our learning is never finished and that we need to lean into the learning. We shouldn't lean away from it. We need to lean into it and all that it has to offer. There are going to be bumps, there are going to be sidetracks, there are going to be bruises, even, but you learn through all of that and we become better. So we should continue to do that in our craft and model that, even as you do with your work, you're modeling the learning. You're being a model learner. Before we end this show, we need the big announcement, but first let's take a moment from our sponsors and have a reflection on the fact that this is Greg's favorite podcast he's been on today.
Speaker 2You manipulated every aspect of it, not true?
Speaker 1I know Greg and I knew he would say this was his favorite. You know Greg is a very nice guy. Knew he would say this was his favorite.
Speaker 2You know, greg, greg is a very nice guy and he would say it's his favorite regardless.
Speaker 1That's hurtful for people who have feelings, which is not me. So let's move on to the big announcement, which is because of the amazing feedback we got from last year's expo. Greg happened to be the opening feature presenter. We, through our partnership with amplify, are having greg come back as our afternoon closing keynote yeah, and on a great note and on a great powerful exclamation mark at the end, like I always do with this podcast.
Speaker 2Oh, whenever we have the final thought wow, wow, see people applauding my mom always says pick up your feet because it's getting deep in here.
Speaker 1It's like up to my nose, but then does she say that every time I have the final thought, or just she just says it every time that it gets crazy and stupid there's a general, general momism that you deliver. Thank you so much. So, listen, listeners. We want you to be there to experience Greg in person, but also come be with us at the expo.
Speaker 2Hang out with us.
Speaker 1This year is our third annual Steeles Expo. It will be on Tuesday May 20th. Why Tuesday May 20th?
Speaker 2Because it's election day.
Speaker 1Or because it's the day we picked.
Speaker 2Yeah, but yes, election day is the real reason you asked for the real reason.
Speaker 1I don't understand I know, I know your theatrics today are on point.
Speaker 2So it's election day. I don't appreciate lying to our listener. We have. It's too late now. Still have room If we have.
Speaker 1The two we have Still have room. If you're listening and you want to come, you need to buy a plane ticket. You do that, you come.
Speaker 2You stay. A plane ticket for Montgomery County.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, for our SEALS Expo. We'll be there. We'll be in person To learn more information. You can go to learnmciuorg slash Expo 20.
Speaker 3Expo 25. No.
Speaker 1Expo 20. Yes. You don't have to put the change in first. Nope, nope. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2They revamped it.
Speaker 1The Expo is so big.
Speaker 2You should go to change it first, because we've got some good stuff there, and then click the Expo tab.
Speaker 1Yeah, so if you go somewhere on the internet and you look up something near you that you can go to, I'm done talking.
Speaker 2We only have until this Thursday.
Speaker 1if you want to register, find us somewhere on the internet and come see us. Thank you, as always, for listening and tuning in. Be sure to follow and like and share this with every person you know so they can come to the expo as well.
Speaker 2Disregard the fact that Andrew is a giant fibber.
Speaker 1I don't know if you can ever trust him again. Who tells the truth? A fibber that tells the truth.
Speaker 2Okay, if you were Pinocchio, your nose would be out the door.