ChangED
ChangED is an educator based podcast for Pennsylvania teachers to learn more about the PA STEELS Standards and science in general. It is hosted by Andrew Kuhn and Patrice Semicek.
ChangED
ReIgniting Wonder: Why Schooling Shouldn't Kill Curiosity
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Ever wondered why kindergartners bubble with questions while high schoolers barely raise their hands? This episode will explore phenomena-based learning. We'll dive into how educators can reignite student curiosity by starting with observable events that naturally spark questions.
"Phenomena doesn't have to be phenomenal to be something," as Andrew Kuhn wisely puts it. Our conversation reveals how everyday occurrences – from melting ice cubes to America's Got Talent performances – can launch powerful learning journeys. We share practical strategies for implementing this approach without completely reinventing your teaching practice, acknowledging that "it's a journey and the journey has to start somewhere." Whether you're a classroom teacher wondering how to get started or an educational leader looking to transform professional development, we offer insights on finding resources, overcoming common challenges, and applying this mindset across all subject areas.
The most compelling aspect of phenomena-based learning may be its potential to reverse a troubling trend: research suggests that while kindergartners ask hundreds of questions daily, high schoolers ask just one question monthly. By creating space for curiosity and normalizing not having all the answers, we can help develop what were once called "soft skills" but are increasingly recognized as essential "power skills" for the 21st century. As one host (naturally everyone's favorite host) reflects, "I literally see the world this way now and I can't unsee it. I can't unbe interested, I can't unbe curious."
Ready to transform your approach to teaching and learning? Listen now, and don't forget to like, follow, and subscribe to join us on this continuing journey of educational innovation.
SHOW NOTES
STEELS Hub Toolkit
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Welcome back to Change Ed, the number one rated podcast. Wherever you are right now and you're listening to it, and even if it's not the number one rated one, there it is, it is. It is somewhere.
Speaker 2:I'm your host, andrew Kuhn, education consultant from Montgomery County Intermediate Unit, here with me is Patrice Semitrack, also out of the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit, and I am still an education consultant.
Speaker 3:And Tony Marabito from CLIU21SDF.
Speaker 1:I think for this episode, lady and gentleman, we should pull out an oldie but a goodie, something we have not talked about very much in a while.
Speaker 2:We're going to do one that I wasn't allowed to be a part of, that I'm allowed to be a part of now.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, someone mute her mic please. We should probably talk about revisit fundamentally based learning, because that is a huge part of what we do and a huge part of what we are embracing with these standards and this philosophy of education. What I think is important about it is that we've talked a lot about three-dimensional learning, and that is a huge part, but your phenomenon is your key to getting started, your key to the education, your driving question yeah, and getting the kids hooked. How do we get students hooked and interested in what we're doing? So I'm interested to hear what you've seen over the last two years when it comes to phenomenon or something that's stuck with you, or what you see is the big difference that maybe we've never talked about before. Those are three really big questions.
Speaker 3:You're welcome. Maybe you should slow that down.
Speaker 2:So one of the things that keeps coming up in my brain is I did some really great work with these teachers up in Hattonburg, horsham. Shout out to the Mad Hatters At the middle school level. I think Chris talks about this on the episode that he was on with us. He talks about how they have shifted to phenomena-based learning. They use a clip from America's Got Talent and that's their opening. Yeah, and it's these two people that are extremely flexible, doing all kinds of crazy stuff, but then they get into a whole unit on like bone structure and joints and like what's going on in your body while this is happening, like to be able to use something like that. That's a it's maybe not culturally relevant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and but it's not like a phenomena that you would see outside in the wild, necessarily, because they're doing a performance, but at the same time, it's still a phenomena happening. So I think the cool thing to think about when we're talking about phenomena-based learning is that it doesn't necessarily always have to be something you see outside. Phenomena is happening all around us. Phenomena can be ice melting on a table versus ice melting on a paper towel. That in itself is a phenomena. So when we're thinking about phenomena-based learning, the cool thing for me in the realization was it's literally happening everywhere, and it doesn't have to be. To quote the great Andrew Kuhn, phenomena doesn't have to be phenomenal to be something. So I think that one of the bigger shifts for me this year and when I'm talking to teachers and helping them move into this way of thinking, is it's literally all around you. And how can you use something interesting like the agt clip or mundane like ice melting on a table to bring kids into understanding what's happening on multiple levels?
Speaker 3:yeah, I think it goes back to teaching kids how to think again, rather than just being lectured to. What causes this. Why does this happen? Allowing for the questions, Exactly right. Let the phenomenon guide the content, Starting off with something, maybe even some local context obviously AGT not necessarily local, but could be if they were local people but more about the actual phenomenon, more about getting kids to be curious about something.
Speaker 2:The thing, too, that Andrew and I had started at some point, and we haven't really put much into it lately but like we'll be out with our families and we'll be like, oh, this is a really cool thing that's happening.
Speaker 2:So we're taking a picture and we have like pictures just everywhere in Google folders of things that we see when we're out. That could be potentially used as phenomenon to kick you into some deeper learning and some deeper understanding, or even just why is this even happening, and then we can start moving into explaining or diving into the exploration behind why it's happening.
Speaker 3:I promise I won't be that guy that all of season three. But referencing back to my trip, but it's a recent experience.
Speaker 3:Everything like in America. The oldest thing we have like in Pennsylvania is what? 200 years old Yep Right. So I'm walking around buildings that are built in BC times, thousands of years, and, of course, going back to AI, chat, gpting why was this built like this? Or what was this used for? Or you know how? Why did they put water in the Coliseum? And you know practice naval strategies, things like that, why something happens? Just being curious. I think that happens to us in our everyday lives and I think if we can get kids to be curious, then it can take that mundane ice and turn into something that they can connect it to.
Speaker 2:But we've schooled the questioning out of them. We need to put that back into there, because I'll forever quote Ken Robinson. He is quoting a study, but kindergartners ask hundreds of questions a day and by the time they hit high school it's one question a month. So what are we doing? Is it that we're living into the knowing, or is it that just naturally we have more answers, therefore we ask less questions, or we think we have more answers, therefore we ask less questions? I mean, there's a lot of factors that can go into it and you know how research can be re-skewed a little bit, but the idea is still there that we don't necessarily allow time for the question, and introducing a phenomena in a way that might seem intriguing could be a way of reintroducing the questions.
Speaker 3:Working with teachers this year. I think where they're struggling and myself where I struggle is how do I take this stuff that I've been teaching for years and how do I either add an anchoring phenomena to it or constantly relate back to this anchoring phenomena? I think that's where the struggle is. I think everybody wants to to do it. I think they're excited to get kids excited about learning. Where do I find them? But where do I? Where do I find them? How do I start? How do I take what I'm already doing and not having to, like you know, reinvent the wheel here, yeah, but also apply it to and spend hours finding something.
Speaker 1:Yeah the reality is is that there's something available for everybody, no matter where they are on this phenomenon spectrum.
Speaker 3:I like that term. We haven't talked about the phenomenon spectrum yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, copyrighted. I'm thinking, for some individuals who understand the concept enough and are ready to rock and roll, that this is a time to tie in other episodes that we've had, that you sit down and have a conversation with AI and say what would be some phenomenon to help me explain this concept or to get this concept, because I've heard you say that it's a thought partner for you or you're looking for a spark. If you're looking for a spark, there's a lot of ways to get that, but if you're not already going to AI, that's yet another hurdle for you to overcome. I have to start working with that before I can go there. There are a lot of great resources, and the thing that we benefit from in Pennsylvania is that this mindset has been around for over 10 years, so we're essentially late to the game, but the benefit for us is that there are a lot of resources that are already available. Some you pay for, some you don't those also, the biggest difference is again the same idea of like if you know what you're looking for, you can go chat with AI.
Speaker 1:If you know what you're doing, maybe paying for something isn't a top priority. You just need that spark of curiosity or that spark of inspiration Copilot, if you will, yeah, to get you started. But if you feel like a deer in the headlights when you're looking at this stuff, then you want something where you're like I know a team has sat down and designed this specifically for my third grade kids and you can plug and play. I philosophically do not believe that any of those are meant to be a lifelong commitment. This is where I'm at in this journey. Now Let me get started, but then my job is to customize it for the students that are in front of me. And if we're really living into Steeles, which is supposed to be localized, okay, I'm going to use this larger curriculum. But then how do I start to tie in that local component to where maybe I can find this phenomenon happening right here in this area, and then we can create a field trip or we can do all sorts of things. So I think it's a journey and the journey has to start somewhere.
Speaker 1:So asking for help is what you're supposed to do. You ask for help, you look for resources. How can I find to do this? Because I don't know what I'm doing yet. But then, as you learn what you're doing, that's when you can transition and start to move away from resources and start to move to independence, or even coaching and helping and supporting others, because truly the best way to learn something is to actually teach it. And so, right, the best way to try with phenomenon is and now, let me bring along somebody and work with them, or, if there's somebody in your school who gets it, start having conversation with them. Ask those questions. One of the biggest disservices we we've done in education is by focusing so much on knowing we're afraid to ask other people questions, because then they know that we don't know, but we already don't know.
Speaker 1:So we're just admitting I have no idea. I love this idea. Help me get this. Help me do this, because I really believe in this. But then, whatever the reason is, when we don't do that, then we stunt our own group, which impacts others. That was really well said.
Speaker 2:So that was 10 minutes and we're done. That's actually about as long as what you guys were putting out originally, if I'm being real.
Speaker 1:A question I'd like to pose to both of you when it comes to phenomenon, because our jobs are not in the classroom, because our work is different. We are engaging educators. It can often be hard for us to model. This is what phenomenon-based learning would look like for you in your classroom. This is what phenomenon-based learning would look like for you in your classroom. However, I have completely embraced this when it comes to my practice and the work that I do and the way that we market.
Speaker 1:We are embracing phenomenon-based learning, like how can we get you hooked and interested in what we're going to be talking about, something that doesn't have all the answers? So you're like I'm going there for the answer. I'm like I want to know more about that. So we're providing that hook even in the way that we run events and the way we run activities and the way that we anything that we do now is all based around this or adapting it to our craft versus a classroom. So my, my wondering is for each of you do you feel the same way and if so, what does that look like for you and your practice? You do you feel the same way and if so, what does that look like for you in your practice. How have you embraced?
Speaker 3:this type of style, this phenomenon-based learning in your craft to engage others. So funny you mentioned this. Now, going into the next school year, our IU, at CLIU 21, we are going to be working with a NovaMAT, which is a completely not science related. It's a math program from overseas, from Barcelona. Anyway, it was a group of engineers that just loved the math so much and wanted to teach it to kids and try to get kids to think about math. So we did four sessions last year.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, yeah, I heard about them.
Speaker 3:We did four sessions last year and every session was packed 40 people each and so we're bringing it back again this year. We're going to do a train the trainer I will be the trainer, which is cool because I went through it last year and then they're going to do a second edition for those that really wanted to do a deep dive. It's built in part with Peter I'm going to say his last name, wrong. There we go, thank you. That's why you're the best building thinking classrooms and just again teaching kids how to think, as opposed to just sitting there mimicking Right. So I think this is the perfect kind of connection and time to bring this up, since we're shifting and now math and we just did the shift in science. Bottom line is we just have to get kids to think again. So I think that's the perfect kind of leeway. I completely forgot about your question that you asked me.
Speaker 2:How are you?
Speaker 3:using this kind of? How are you using? So just reading that book? Doing a book study this summer, I learned bits and pieces of how to get people to learn just by having them move or having them grouped a certain way, like just little things that I was doing in the classroom already, but now I'm going to start doing in my PDs to model for them just pieces of this book, and I think there's these little changes that we can make to just help people think better and then help them understand and then engage in things like phenomena-based learning or just thinking at the beginning of a math class. So we're starting, instead of with a phenomena or an anchoring phenomena, we're starting with a thinking question. So not just your what's five times five, but here's 25. Give me all the add-ins, or give me all the numbers you can add together to reach 25, including decimals, you know if they, if they, run out. So just getting kids to think right off the bat and then getting into content.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've been noticing the way that I plan. I plan differently, I plan around. This is probably because we do almost all of our planning together, but we tend to plan around what is the anchoring concept that we're doing in this chunk and then how is it all interconnected along the way? So we definitely try to think about it from that perspective in terms of we need to keep coming back to something. It makes sense to keep coming back to this concept, and if this is the main concept for the day or for the hour or whatever, then we need to keep somehow bringing people back to it. So, thinking about them to your point, thinking first I want you to do something that's going to make your brain hurt a little, and then I'm going to make some connections to it, so that way it sticks.
Speaker 3:I think that's why trivia is fun. I think that's why adults find trivia. Well, most adults find trivia fun because it's outside their normal zone. I Adults find trivia Well, most adults find trivia fun because it's outside their normal zone. I hate it. Yeah, that's fine, maybe I just love trivia.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, I know you love trivia, but like I don't like it because I don't feel like I know enough of that stuff.
Speaker 3:I mean you're talking to me. I don't know half of it, but that's not true. But whatever, I enjoy learning about these facts and it actually makes me think. So that's why I have to go down into the depths of my now Depths of what you know. It makes you think a little bit, and then you can.
Speaker 2:It does make you think. Maybe that's why I don't like it.
Speaker 1:When I started this job four years ago, part of this job was that you're going to have to run an all day training. The thought of doing that was so overwhelming because I like to be a very matter of fact like here's what you need to know.
Speaker 2:If we can't talk about it within an hour.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't want to talk about it if we can't solve it in an hour.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like sorry folks, it's pretty cut and dry. Here it is, and this framework has given me the ability to look at it differently, to say this is again. This is a journey. This is not here's the information done, it's a how do we get you to go on this so that you have the room and the space to expand your thinking, to then actually come to the conclusion on your own, and then, towards the end, I'll say and here are some of the key parts of this that you need to consider, I would actually even say the way that we go about podcasting allows for that as well, because we're making a conversational, we're not saying here's the answer.
Speaker 1:We have three different experiences and three different perspectives that we're offering. But also we will ask questions. I mean, there are so many things that I want to say about, let's just say, ai and my philosophy on AI, but me throwing out just my philosophy doesn't expand me as a learner. So I'm going to ask questions and say, well, what do you guys think, where are you at with that? And then I'll throw mine in. But even in doing so and when we had these conversations we're usually adding to what somebody else has already said right. So this has been a phenomenal platform for us to engage in phenomenon-based learning and say I can squeeze it in here. Here is this topic and we don't know where it's going to go. We just kind of put that out there and we all come to it with our own wonderings and perspective and interest and ideas and then it becomes something. And I think that was one of our biggest obstacles when it came to podcasting was feeling like we had to when we started this.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, two years ago that we had to come in here, scripted, we had to come in here with all the answers because we were acting like the experts and what has evolved to is that we don't have any answers. There's nothing written down. We're just having this conversation and it's genuine, it's authentic, it's in the moment. But I think that's the power for us is that we don't claim to have the answers. We want to have the conversations. When our listener is taking this in, they can hear where we are and relate to any one of the three of us or even our guests. They can relate to our guests and say that really makes sense. I like that, but it doesn't have to be any one of us. Which I feel like is the power of even phenomenon-based learning, creating that space, intentionally creating an area and creating time, even though that's the biggest squeeze and will continue forever be the biggest squeeze in public education, is time. How do we create space and time for you to be able to wonder and to be curious?
Speaker 3:I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about real quickly on the PDE SAS. Maybe we can put the link in our description of the episode. But they have a new communication toolkit and on that toolkit it talks about Steeles 101. A lot of teachers have been trained. Now they go into administrator reference guides, they go into a parent's new learning goals for K2, 3, 5, 6, 8. So they're really trying to get the message out there of why this learning is taking place and why this shift. So again underneath the communications toolkit on PDE SAS, steels Hub, some great info there. Maybe we can do an episode later on dive in a little bit deeper great idea and maybe see the people who were.
Speaker 3:I'll find out who was a part of it, yeah, and who created it. But it's some really great content there and it kind of explains the why behind the shift thank you, tony.
Speaker 1:There we go. All right, folks, it's everyone's favorite time of the episode when we have our second and third when andrew wraps it up when it's over over, that's the favorite part.
Speaker 2:When it's done, it's done so.
Speaker 1:Tony Arbito, please give us your words of wisdom when it comes to finalized learning.
Speaker 3:Give it a shot. Kids will be interested and curious if you give them something to be curious about. So, instead of just the lecture, which lecturing still, there's still time and time in place for that, for sure. But give them something to be curious about, because that will grab their attention and carry them to that class.
Speaker 2:Nice, it's my turn. I didn't say this before, but when we plan, I like to stick to the mindset of you learn something and you do something. And I think that phenomena-based learning really lends itself to this idea of I'm going to first come up with my driving question, or I'm going to figure out my phenomena and I'm going to learn something about it, then I'm going to do something with it, then I'm going to keep this cycle going as long as I can to make sure that I come back to that original driving question or initial phenomena to really understand the concept. And that ties into the cross-cutting concepts and the DCIs that go along with them. So I think, if you can be of the mindset of learn something, do something that you'll get pretty far.
Speaker 1:Phenomenal based learning, to me, is about changing the way that you see the world, and not even just putting on glasses and seeing it differently. But to me this is maybe going to sound a little drastic, but it's almost like having LASIK eye surgery. You're literally changing the shape of the way that the lens that you use to look at education and look at the world. And the strength of phenomenon-based learning is that it's for me, it's not just limited to science, it's the way that now I see every part of my practice and I can implement it across content areas. It's not just based off of one content area. I can use it and apply it anywhere. And it's about empowering the learner and engaging them in curiosity, allowing them to be curious, allowing them to ask those questions Again that socially we've now.
Speaker 1:We're fearful to say I don't know the answer, I'm afraid Let me go, let me go Google it before I give you the actual answer. And so we're empowering students to say it's okay, right, and let's give it a shot, let's throw out some hypotheses. We have to demonstrate that first, and we have to create that space, and it's a very different space, and so we also need to allow ourselves grace in doing that and know that it is a transition. Every transition is going to have hiccups. Every transition is going to have challenges. It is not going to work the way you think it will work on the very first try and not going to work the way you think it will work on the very first try. And you'll think, oh my gosh, this is going to take me three hours and that lesson ends up taking 35 minutes. And you're like now, what do I do for the next two hours and 25 minutes?
Speaker 2:Right, We've never had that happen.
Speaker 1:That will happen. It will happen a lot, and that's where our skillset comes in, because we know how to stretch things out. We know how to bring them back together. So be courageous, give it a shot, give it a try and allow it to impact you and your practice, but also your life. Again, I can't take off my phenomena-based glasses because I don't have phenomena-based learning glasses.
Speaker 3:I literally I thought you were going to say your phenomena-based beard.
Speaker 1:I literally that's gone. I literally see the world this way now and I can't unsee it. I can't unbe interested, I can't unbe curious. Yesterday a helicopter flew over my house and my kids were like Whoa, and they just were like in awe, trying to like ask questions and you know what do you think it is and what do you think it does, Like they were in that space. And I know a lot of times they'll come to me and be like dad, what is this? Could be anything? And I'll say you know what I think this I don't actually know, let's figure it out.
Speaker 1:So that in itself is such a shift from I remember going to my parents and they had the answers what is this? Why does somebody do that? Why would somebody vote this way about this? And they would have you know their answers, versus being able to say there's a lot of reasons people could do that. Why don't we? Why don't we explore it a little bit? Let's figure it out, and figure out who you are as a person and what you value and what you care about, versus me saying here's my reason I care about, here's why someone might do this or that, and we don't always know. So this is allowing space and time for us to be part of the molding of human beings. One thing that we talk about so much is soft skills. They used to be called soft skills the how to be a person. 21st century, those are now power skills and they're so important, and this is one of the ways that we can help create those and generate those by putting them in this space, in the unknown, into the unknown.
Speaker 3:Wow, that's something we didn't need.
Speaker 2:It's staying, though, as always.
Speaker 1:thank you for tuning in and listening and don't forget to like, follow and subscribe. Your favorite podcast helps us get to 15 billion downloads.
Speaker 2:By the end of season three. Yes, 15 billion, To quote the great, great great Andrew Kuhn. Phenomena doesn't have to be phenomenal to be something.
Speaker 3:That was really well said, that was really well said