IT'S NOT JUST I'M GOING TO WEAR PRIDE COLORS DURING THE MONTH OF JUNE OR I'M GOING TO SUPPORT BLACK HISTORY MONTH IN THE MONTH OF FEBRUARY.
IT'S THIS IS PART OF WHO I AM.
IT'S MY DNA AND IT'S MY RESPONSIBILITY.
AND IT'S THE IT'S VERY MUCH MANAGEMENT.
101, WALK THE WALK AND TALK THE TALK, BUT.
DO IT YEAR ROUND.
HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME.
CLOUT FOR GOOD IS A BI WEEKLY PODCAST THAT SHOWCASES PERSONAL AND POWERFUL CONVERSATIONS WITH PROMINENT LGBTQ+ EXECUTIVES WHO ARE OUT IN THE WORKPLACE.
THE CONVERSATIONS ARE MEANT TO CREATE A SUPPORTIVE COMMUNITY TO INSPIRE LGBTQ+ PEOPLE, THEIR EMPLOYERS AND ALLIES TO BUILD EQUITY AND INCLUSION IN THE WORKPLACE.
TODAY, I'M HONORED TO WELCOME JIM FIELDING.
JIM AND I MET YEARS AGO WHEN WE WERE BOTH SERVING ON THE NATIONAL BOARD OF DIRECTORS FOR GLISSON, THE GAY LESBIAN STRAIGHT EDUCATION NETWORK.
JIM IS A PROUD OHIO NATIVE AND INDIANA UNIVERSITY HOOSIER, WHERE HE SERVES ON THE UNIVERSITY'S FOUNDATION.
HE STARTED HIS CAREER ON THE DEPARTMENT STORE FLOOR, AND OVER THE PAST 30 YEARS, HE'S LED CONSUMER PRODUCT GROUPS AT SOME OF THE WORLD'S MOST BELOVED MEDIA AND RETAIL BRANDS, INCLUDING THE GAP, DISNEY, CLAIRE'S, DREAMWORKS AND 20TH CENTURY FOX.
JIM IS CURRENTLY A PARTNER AT ARCHER GRAY, AN INDEPENDENT MEDIA COMPANY.
HE'S PASSIONATE ABOUT THE QUEER COMMUNITY AND ADVOCATES FOR HIGHER EDUCATION FOR DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION, AND RECENTLY HAS LAUNCHED A NEW BOOK TITLED ALL PRIDE NO EGO A QUEER EXECUTIVE'S JOURNEY TO LIVING AND LEADING AUTHENTICALLY.
HE'S COMMITTED TO SAFE AND AUTHENTIC SPACES FOR ALL INDIVIDUALS.
JIM, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU.
YEAH, SAME, JIM.
WELL, LISTEN, I'M REALLY EXCITED TO TALK WITH YOU TODAY.
I JUST FINISHED RECORDING.
I'VE JUST FINISHED READING ALL PRIDE AND EGO OVER LABOR DAY WEEKEND.
YES.
I LOVE HOW YOU SHARED SO MUCH VULNERABILITY AND REALLY APPRECIATE THE PRACTICAL ADVICE THAT YOU PROVIDED FOR YOUR READERS.
GREAT.
AND IN THE BOOK YOU INCLUDED A QUOTE FROM SOMEONE I ADMIRE, ARMISTEAD MAUPIN, THE AUTHOR OF TALES IN THE CITY, WHERE HE STATES THAT HIS ONE REGRET IN LIFE WAS HIDING HIS IDENTITY FOR TOO LONG AND HE ENCOURAGES OTHERS NOT TO MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE.
CAN YOU TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR COMING OUT STORY AND WHEN AND WHY YOU WHEN AND WHY YOU CHOSE TO DO THAT IN SOME OF THE EXPERIENCES THAT CAME ALONG WITH IT?
YEAH.
I MEAN, I THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR STARTING WITH THAT QUOTE.
THAT QUOTE WAS IN A STARBUCKS CUP, BY THE WAY.
THAT'S WHERE I SAW THAT GO.
UM, SO, YEAH, I MEAN, I, I KNEW I WAS GAY MY ENTIRE LIFE.
I WRITE IN THE BOOK THAT I PROBABLY KNEW AT 6 OR 7.
I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS CALLED.
I WASN'T.
I WAS PRETTY SURE IT WAS WRONG.
OR AT LEAST THAT'S THE WAY I'D BEEN SOCIALIZED.
AND SO I'M ACTUALLY OFFICIALLY A LATE BLOOMER BECAUSE I, I LIVED A VERY I THINK IT'S PROBABLY FAIR TO SAY BISEXUAL LIFE FOR MOST OF MY TEENS AND INTO COLLEGE AND THEN REALLY JUST SUPPRESSING.
I WAS A HOMOSEXUAL, BUT I WAS SUPPRESSING AND THEN REALLY CAME OUT TO MYSELF WHEN I WAS 22, BUT DIDN'T COME OUT TO MY FAMILY OR AT WORK PROFESSIONALLY UNTIL I WAS 26.
AND I THINK WHY THAT QUOTE RESONATES WITH ME SO MUCH IS, UH, I REGRET.
I WONDER WHAT HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE WOULD HAVE BEEN LIKE IF I WOULD HAVE BEEN STRONG ENOUGH TO BE OUT AND TO BE MY AUTHENTIC SELF.
AND A LOT OF IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE I'M SUCH A MEDIA PERSON AND I CONSUME SO MUCH CONTENT AND I GET SUPER EMOTIONAL WATCHING THINGS LIKE LOVE SIMON AND LOVE VICTOR AND HEARTSTOPPER BECAUSE I'M LIKE, THAT WASN'T MY EXPERIENCE, BUT I WANTED IT TO BE RIGHT.
I WANTED TO GO TO HOMECOMING WITH A BOY.
I.
I KNEW THAT I WOULD HAVE BEEN HAPPIER IF I COULD HAVE BEEN AUTHENTIC.
I KNEW THAT.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THAT QUOTE REMINDS ME OF.
AND SO THINK THE SECOND HALF OF MY LIFE SINCE 26, I THINK I'VE DOUBLED DOWN ON.
THAT'S WHY I KNEW I HAD TO BE OUT AND PROUD AND LIVE AUTHENTICALLY.
I WAS NEVER GOING TO GO BACK THE OTHER WAY.
YEAH, I JUST MY PARTNER AND I JUST FINISHED WATCHING THE LATEST EPISODE OF HEARTSTOPPER.
SAME, SAME FEELINGS FOR ME.
AND YOU KNOW, I ACTUALLY TALKED OVER THE WEEKEND ABOUT I ACTUALLY IT IT CREATES AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF FEAR AND ANXIETY AS I WATCH IT BECAUSE I'M SO NOT USED TO SEEING IT.
IT SO WASN'T MY EXPERIENCE THAT BEING ABLE TO SEE THESE OPEN, HONEST CONVERSATIONS AND THE AUTHENTICITY ON THE SCREEN IS IS AMAZING.
AND, WELL, YOU KNOW, IN THE WORKPLACE, IT SEEMS LIKE WE'RE COMING OUT ALL THE TIME.
A MCKINSEY MCKINSEY REPORT STATES THAT QUEER EMPLOYEES OFTEN COME OUT IN THE WORKPLACE EVERY WEEK.
YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT YOU SORT OF RIP THE BAND-AID OFF AND YOU'RE FINISHED AT WORK BECAUSE YOU'RE DEALING WITH SO MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
IN YOUR OWN COMPANY AND EXTERNALLY.
AND SO YOU'RE OFTEN FACED WITH COMING OUT AND TELLING YOUR STORY OVER AND OVER.
AND I'M INTERESTED, YOU KNOW, WITH YOUR CAREER.
AND ALL OF THE DIFFERENT COMPANIES YOU'VE SPANNED, ALL THE DIFFERENT CLIENTS YOU'VE SERVED, HAVE YOU FOUND YOURSELF OR DID YOU FIND YOURSELF HIDING YOUR IDENTITY?
AND HOW DID YOU HOW DID YOU OVERCOME THAT AND HOW DO YOU APPROACH THAT TODAY?
YEAH.
NO, I MEAN, THINK THINK, DAVID IT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT CONVERSATION BECAUSE IT'S TIRING.
LET'S BE CLEAR.
IT'S TIRING BECAUSE AS IF I WHEN I WALK INTO A ROOM, WHEN YOU WALK INTO A ROOM UNTIL WE CHOOSE TO SHARE OUR STORY OR, AS I SAY, INVITE PEOPLE IN, WE'RE WHITE MEN, RIGHT?
AND SO ALL OF THAT, THE ASSUMPTIONS AND FRANKLY, THE PRIVILEGES THAT GO WITH WHITE MEN ARE KIND OF ON YOU UNTIL YOU CHOOSE TO SHARE YOUR STORY.
AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU'RE PUT IN MORE OF A MARGINALIZED COMMUNITY BECAUSE YOU'RE A GAY WHITE MAN.
AND I THINK ALL OF US AS QUEER LEADERS HAVE THAT CODE SWITCH WHERE WE READ ROOMS AND WE READ SITUATIONS.
AND TO YOUR POINT, WE READ CLIENTS WHERE UNFORTUNATELY YOU DECIDE HOW MUCH OF MYSELF AM I GOING TO SHARE AND HOW QUICKLY BASED ON CONTEXT.
SO WHEN I MET YOU, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU AND I MET AT A BOARD OF DIRECTORS FOR GLISTENED, LIKE YOU GOT THE FULL BLOWN LIKE THAT WAS THE 100% RIGHT.
BUT WHEN I WHEN I GO OUT AND PITCH A CLIENT FOR THE FIRST TIME OR, YOU KNOW, MEET A GROUP OF PEOPLE FOR THE FIRST TIME, I'M MUCH MORE CLOSE, NOT CLOSETED, I'M JUST MUCH MORE SELECTIVE IN ARE THESE PEOPLE GOING TO GET THE FULL STORY OR NOT?
AND NOT BECAUSE I WANT TO GET A JOB OR I WANT THEM TO LIKE ME.
IT'S IT'S I THINK IT'S ALMOST A SAFETY MECHANISM, RIGHT?
I THINK IT'S ALMOST A SKILL THAT WE LEARN MEAN OUR GAYDAR, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT.
IT'S A PROTECTIVE CLOAK WE PUT ON THAT SAYS, OKAY, WAIT A MINUTE, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO EARN MY TRUST A LITTLE BIT AND I'M GOING TO HAVE TO FEEL THIS OUT BEFORE I FULLY FLIP THAT SWITCH AND GIVE YOU JIM UNPLUGGED.
RIGHT.
AND I THINK.
STRAIGHT PEOPLE.
GOD LOVE THEM.
LOVE MY ALLIES.
LOVE MY STORY.
THEY DON'T HAVE TO THINK LIKE THAT, RIGHT?
THEY JUST ENTER A ROOM AND THEY PRESENT AS THEY ARE.
I THINK THAT WE DO THAT OUR ENTIRE LIVES, AND IT GETS TIRING.
AND, UM.
BUT I ALSO THINK IT'S WHAT MAKES US GOOD LEADERS BECAUSE WE, WE READ ROOMS, WE READ CONTEXT REALLY, REALLY WELL AND THINK WE ACTIVELY LISTEN.
I THINK WE'RE REALLY GOOD ACTIVE LISTENERS BECAUSE WE LISTEN FOR CUES THAT ALLOW YOU TO OPEN UP OR NOT.
YOU KNOW, JIM, IN YOUR BOOK YOU MENTIONED SOMETHING THAT REALLY RESONATED WITH ME, AND I HAVE MY OWN EXPERIENCE THAT MIRRORS YOURS, WHICH WAS YOU SAID AND AS YOU JUST MENTIONED, YOU KNOW, WHEN I SHOW UP, THE FEAR AND THE ANXIETY OF WHAT WILL PEOPLE THINK OF ME?
AND YOU MENTIONED IN THE BOOK HAVING INSECURITIES AROUND YOUR OWN VOICE.
AND FOR YEARS I WOULD GET UP IN FRONT OF GROUPS ALWAYS, YOU KNOW, LEADING SOMETHING AND A PART OF SOMETHING.
AND AT VISA, WE HAD A PROGRAM THAT EVERYONE HAD TO COMPLETE WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT I WORKED IN, AND IT WAS REALLY A WEEK LONG BOOTCAMP ABOUT ARTICULATION, SPEECH DELIVERY, ENGAGING.
WE WERE WORKING WITH A LOT OF CLIENTS AND THAT WEEK YOU NEEDED TO BE RECORDED AND THEN HAVE YOUR VIDEO PLAYED BACK IN FRONT OF A LARGE CLASSROOM OF PEOPLE.
AND I WAS TERRIFIED.
HORRIFYING.
I COULD FEEL IT LIKE THE HAIRS STANDING UP IN THE BACK, RIGHT?
AND I THOUGHT, HOW AM I GOING TO DO THIS?
WE HAD COACHING SESSIONS THROUGHOUT THE WEEK AND I BROKE DOWN IN TEARS TELLING THIS COACH, I THINK PEOPLE THINK THIS OF ME.
I THINK I SOUND LIKE THIS.
I THINK THAT MAKES MAKES ME LESS THAN.
AND YOU KNOW, AFTER THAT WEEK, WHILE IT WAS ANXIETY PRODUCING, I LEARNED YOU HAVE A POWERFUL VOICE.
IT'S OKAY THE WAY IT IS.
IT'S IT WORKS.
YOU'RE OKAY.
AND SO IT'S REALLY IT'S REALLY TOUGH TO OVERCOME THAT.
AND I DO AGREE WITH YOU MODULATING AND CODE SWITCHING AND PRESENTING, YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT'S SHOWING UP FOR A MEETING AND THE TOPIC IS A TOPIC THAT MAY NOT BE ONE I'M INVOLVED IN WITH GOLF OR FANTASY FOOTBALL AND FEELING LIKE AN OUTSIDER AND FIGURING OUT, YOU KNOW, ONE ONE OF MY PRIOR COLLEAGUES, I REMEMBER IN FRONT OF AN ENTIRE STAFF MEETING AND I THINK THIS IS SOME PROGRESS THAT'S HAPPENING, WAS ASKED, YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE SOME OF YOUR FAVORITE SHOWS?
AND HE STOOD RIGHT UP AND SAID, MY FAVORITE SHOW IS RUPAUL'S DRAG RACE.
AND AGAIN, ANXIETY PRODUCING FOR ME.
YEAH, BUT BUT HOPEFULLY I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, AS YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR BOOK, YOU ALSO GIVE ADVICE ON SHOWING UP AUTHENTICALLY AND NOT DISSECTING YOURSELF INTO ACCEPTABLE AND UNACCEPTABLE THESE LIKE THESE THINGS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK OF A YOUNGER QUEER PROFESSIONAL OR EVEN A SEASONED, BUT MAYBE SOMEWHAT CLOSETED QUEER PROFESSIONAL.
WHAT WHAT ADVICE DO YOU GIVE FOR FOLKS TO BE ABLE TO BEGIN TO SHOW UP MORE AUTHENTICALLY AND HOW DO THEY NAVIGATE IT SAFELY?
BECAUSE SOMETIMES MAYBE IT ISN'T SAFE FOR THEM FOR WHATEVER REASON?
WELL, YEAH, AND I THINK THAT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT WORD, DAVID.
AND WE HAVE THAT IN COMMON FROM OUR WORK AND GLISTEN BECAUSE WE WERE SO FOCUSED ON SAFE SCHOOLS AND THINK A LOT OF MY LEARNINGS AND MY LINGO COME FROM THE SAFE SCHOOL SIDE BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT SAFE ENVIRONMENTS, RIGHT?
AND I MEAN, THE FIRST THING I ALWAYS SAY IS PERSONAL SAFETY AND FINANCIAL SECURITY ARE OUR PARAMOUNT.
AND YOU NEVER SHOULD PUT YOURSELF IN A SITUATION.
DON'T CARE HOW MUCH I PROMOTE LIVING AUTHENTICALLY, WHERE YOU'RE PUTTING YOURSELF IN ANY KIND OF DANGER OF LOSING A JOB OR PHYSICAL HARM, BECAUSE THAT'S REAL IN OUR COMMUNITY.
AND THAT HAS TO BE THE FIRST FILTERS FOR SURE.
THE THING THAT I TALK ABOUT, AND PARTICULARLY NOW THAT I'M OUT ON THE ROAD WITH WITH THIS BOOK TOUR, IS THE GLORY OF THE INFORMATION AGE AND THE TECHNOLOGY AGE AS YOU CAN DO A TON OF RESEARCH ON PEOPLE, GROUPS, COMPANIES, GROUPS YOU'RE PRESENTING TO YOU BEFORE YOU GO INTO THEM.
AND SO I TELL PEOPLE, DO YOUR HOMEWORK, LIKE GO THROUGH YOUR LINKEDIN AND SEE IF YOU KNOW ANYBODY THAT WORKS THERE BECAUSE YOU MIGHT YOU JUST YOU MIGHT NOT EVEN KNOW.
YOU MIGHT HAVE LOST TOUCH OR READ ON THINGS LIKE GLASSDOOR.
THERE'S SO MANY THINGS.
THERE'S SO MANY RESOURCES NOW WHERE YOU CAN GO LIKE IF YOU DON'T GO IN PREPARED, LIKE SHAME ON YOU IN A WEIRD WAY.
AND YES, AS THE QUEER INDIVIDUAL, WE HAVE TO DO THAT HOMEWORK.
SO IS THAT MORE WORK?
YES.
DOES A STRAIGHT PERSON HAVE TO DO THIS?
NO.
BUT MEAN ANY HONESTLY, ANY STRAIGHT PERSON, ANYBODY THAT'S PITCHING A NEW JOB SHOULD DO RESEARCH ON THEIR EMPLOYER AND THEIR POTENTIAL CLIENT OR ON A POTENTIAL EMPLOYER.
BUT THINK WE HAVE LIKE THESE NUANCES OF GOING.
A LITTLE BIT DEEPER.
DO THEY HAVE PRIDE GROUPS?
DO THEY HAVE GROUPS FOR BLACK LIVES MATTER OR WOMEN'S RIGHTS GROUPS LIKE THAT TELLS YOU A LOT ABOUT A COMPANY.
IT TELLS YOU A LOT ABOUT A SITUATION.
AND AND JUST LIKE I TELL PEOPLE, JUST DO YOUR HOMEWORK AND BE PREPARED AND HAVE OPTIONS MEAN THINK THAT MODULARITY THAT CODE SWITCHING IS HAVING OPTIONS OF LIKE HOW FAR YOU'RE GOING TO GO.
AND YOU KNOW, AS I GET OLDER IN MY CAREER DAVID YOU'RE AT THAT POINT TWO.
I ALSO CAN CHOOSE NOT TO WORK WITH SOMEBODY, RIGHT?
LIKE, SO IF I IF SOMETHING IF THERE'S A RED FLAG THAT COMES UP IN MY RESEARCH OR SOMEBODY I RUN INTO, I'M NOT EVEN GOING TO PUT MYSELF IN THAT SITUATION.
NOW I'M AT A DIFFERENT POINT IN MY CAREER, AM NOT BEING CAVALIER ABOUT THAT.
BUT I, I HAD THAT SITUATION IN CHICAGO A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO WHERE A YOUNG WOMAN THAT CAME TO ONE OF MY EVENTS SAID SHE DOESN'T FEEL RIGHT AT WORK AND SAID, HERE'S HERE'S THE THING.
I WILL TELL YOU.
YOU ARE IN CHICAGO.
YOU HAVE AN MBA.
YOU ARE EXTREMELY MARKETABLE.
I WOULD START LOOKING FOR OTHER OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE YOU CAN'T CHANGE A COMPANY OVERNIGHT, BUT YOU CAN MOVE YOURSELF.
AND I THINK THAT'S ALSO WITH AGE COMES THAT WISDOM OF KNOWING I CAN IMPACT, BUT I CAN'T CHANGE.
I CAN'T CHANGE AN ENTIRE COMPANY CULTURE.
AND IF IT'S A COMPANY CULTURE THAT'S NOT SAFE AND NOT PROTECTIVE, I WOULD LOOK FOR A DIFFERENT ONE.
IT'S IT'S GREAT ADVICE.
AND I COULDN'T AGREE MORE ON THE SAFETY AND THE FINANCIAL SECURITY.
YOU DO HAVE TO START THERE AND THINK, YOU KNOW, ONE THING IN TALKING WITH YOU THAT I KNOW THE LISTENERS WILL BE REALLY INTERESTED IN IS, YOU KNOW, COMING OUT IN THE WORKPLACE.
WHILE IT CAN BE CHALLENGING, IT CAN BE REALLY POWERFUL.
AND WE KNOW STUDIES SHOW THAT BUSINESSES ARE MORE PRODUCTIVE.
THEY DRIVE TO BETTER RESULTS.
EMPLOYEES ARE HAPPIER WHEN THERE'S A SUPPORTIVE AND INCLUSIVE ENVIRONMENT.
AND SO WHEN, AS YOU SAY TO THAT, YOUR ADVICE TO YOUR YOUR READER THAT MAYBE YOU NEED TO LOOK FOR SOME SOME OTHER OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE MAYBE YOU'RE NOT AT THE PLACE WHERE CHANGE IS GOING TO BE SOMETHING YOU CAN DELIVER.
BUT I KNOW YOUR POSITIONS OF POWER AND INFLUENCE HAVE ALLOWED YOU TO DO THAT.
SO WHAT ARE SOME MAYBE EXAMPLES YOU COULD SHARE WITH LISTENERS ABOUT WAYS THAT YOU, AS I SAY, HAVE USED YOUR CLOUT FOR GOOD AND THAT IT MADE A DIFFERENCE?
WHAT ARE SOME THINGS WHERE YOU FOUND SUCCESS IN USING THAT INFLUENCE?
YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK I THINK AS YOU MOVE UP IN YOUR CAREER AND TAKE ON POSITIONS OF MORE RESPONSIBILITY, WHICH USUALLY MEANS YOU HAVE MORE PEOPLE REPORTING TO YOU OR YOU'RE MANAGING LARGER TEAMS, UM, I HAVE WORKED OVERTIME TO MAKE SURE THAT I'M CREATING IN MY OWN WORK GROUP A REALLY POSITIVE, PRODUCTIVE, PROTECTIVE CULTURE AND THAT HOPEFULLY WE'RE SERVING AS A ROLE MODEL AND AN INSPIRATION TO OTHER PEOPLE IN OUR COMPANY FOR, YOU KNOW, GROUPS THAT WE COLLABORATE WITH, PEOPLE THAT WE WORK WITH.
CROSS-FUNCTIONALLY I THINK THAT'S THE BIGGEST THING IS TO MAKE SURE YOUR HOUSE IS IN ORDER BEFORE YOU GO OUT AND START JUDGING OTHER PEOPLE, FRANKLY, UM, AND THINK.
THE OTHER THING IS I'VE ALWAYS, WITH THE RISE OF THESE RESOURCE GROUPS, PRIDE GROUPS, BLACK LIVES MATTER GROUPS, I'VE ALWAYS ATTENDED THOSE MEETINGS, VOLUNTEERED TO PARTICIPATE IN THOSE MEETINGS, EVEN VOLUNTEERED TO BE AN EXECUTIVE SPONSOR IF THEY NEED ONE.
AND NOT JUST DURING PRIDE MONTH OR BLACK HISTORY MONTH, BUT 365 DAYS A YEAR.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS I WRITE ABOUT IN THE BOOK IS I NEVER INTENDED IT, BUT JUST BY LIVING AUTHENTICALLY AND LEADING MY LIFE THIS WAY, YOU BECOME AN ADVOCATE AND YOU BECOME AN ACTIVIST IN AN ODD WAY.
AND I REALIZED THAT, AGAIN, IT'S A 365 DAY YEAR COMMITMENT.
IT'S NOT JUST I'M GOING TO WEAR PRIDE COLORS DURING THE MONTH OF JUNE OR I'M GOING TO SUPPORT BLACK HISTORY MONTH IN THE MONTH OF FEBRUARY.
IT'S THIS IS PART OF IT'S MY DNA AND IT'S MY RESPONSIBILITY.
AND IT'S THE IT'S VERY MUCH MANAGEMENT.
101 WALK THE WALK AND TALK THE TALK BUT DO IT YEAR ROUND.
I COULDN'T AGREE MORE.
AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, I JUST SAW UM, AND WATCH THE US OPEN OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS AND AND BILLIE JEAN KING TOTALLY WEARS A VERY SUBTLE RAINBOW STRIPED WATCH.
AND TO YOUR POINT, SHE'S COMMITTED.
SHE'S THERE.
IT'S NOT WHAT SHE TALKS ABOUT ALL THE TIME.
IT'S BUT IT IS HER IDENTITY AND SHE'S NOT AFRAID TO TO SHOW IT AND THINK.
YOU KNOW, LIKE YOU MENTIONED WITH GLISTEN, WE LEARNED THAT IN SCHOOLS WHEN THERE'S ONE OUT STAFF MEMBER OR INDIVIDUAL AS PART OF THAT EDUCATION THAT.
SYSTEM, THE STATS AND THE INCLUSIVITY AND SORT OF DROPOUT RATES AND ABSENTEE RATES ALL IMPROVE.
AND AND THERE'S REPORTS OUT THERE THAT I'VE READ THAT THE SAME THING HAPPENS IN THE WORKPLACE.
AND SO I THINK THAT'S GREAT ADVICE.
IF YOU IF YOU ARE IN A POSITION TO INFLUENCE EMPLOYEES AND OTHER DEPARTMENTS TO TO TAKE THAT STAND, TO SAY WHO YOU ARE AND TO SHOW UP AS YOU FEEL YOU CAN AT WORK AND YOU KNOW THE CLOUT FOR GOOD COMMUNITY.
THE LISTENERS OF THE PODCAST, IT INCLUDES QUEER PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING, HEY, WHAT CAN I DO AND HOW CAN I LEARN FROM THIS?
AND IT ALSO INCLUDES ALLIES.
AND QUITE FRANKLY, ALL THE FOLKS THAT ARE LISTENING CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THEIR WORKPLACE.
YOU KNOW WHAT WHAT CHANGES DO YOU WANT TO SEE IN THE WORKPLACE THAT CAN BENEFIT QUEER EMPLOYEES?
YEAH.
I MEAN, I, I THINK A LOT OF THE STUFF WE'VE BEEN TOUCHING ON, DAVID, IS, YOU KNOW, REPRESENTATION MATTERS, RIGHT?
AND SO I, YOU KNOW, LISTEN, I WAS IN LA, CALIFORNIA FOR 25 YEARS AND SO VISIBLE OUT EXECUTIVES THERE WERE PLENTY MEAN, NOT PLENTY, BUT BUT THEY WERE AROUND.
IT WAS NOT IT WASN'T ABNORMAL, I GUESS, IS WHAT I'M SAYING.
AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS I WROTE THIS OPINION PIECE RECENTLY AND MEAN THE HEADLINE OF IT IS DID 25 YEARS IN CALIFORNIA MAKE ME SOFT NOW THAT I LIVE IN ATLANTA, GEORGIA?
RIGHT.
AND SO I THINK PART OF WHAT WE HAVE TO DO AS A COMMUNITY IS NOT ASSUME THAT EVERY QUEER PERSON LIVES IN CALIFORNIA, MASSACHUSETTS, CHICAGO, PORTLAND, SEATTLE, NEW YORK, AND THAT WE NEED TO CREATE THESE SAFE ENVIRONMENTS ACROSS THE UNITED STATES AND FRANKLY, ACROSS THE WORLD, BECAUSE THERE'S MANY PLACES WITHIN OUR OWN COUNTRY WHERE OUR COMMUNITY IS UNDER ATTACK ON A DAILY BASIS.
AND IT'S NOT AS COMFORTABLE TO LEAD IN THOSE ENVIRONMENTS.
AND I, I THINK WHAT, YOU KNOW, PART OF THE MISSION THAT I'M ON NOW IS TO HELP CREATE THOSE SAFE THOSE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT SAFE AND PRODUCTIVE WORKPLACES ACROSS THE UNITED STATES, THAT A QUEER EMPLOYEE IN KANSAS OR IN MISSOURI OR IN FLORIDA HAS JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TO SAFETY AND PRODUCTIVITY AS A QUEER EMPLOYEE DOES IN CALIFORNIA.
AND IT IS DIFFERENT.
I MEAN, THERE ARE DEFINITELY DIFFERENT LEVELS AND DIFFERENT PROTECTIONS IN PLACE AND DIFFERENT ATTACKS COMING AGAINST THE COMMUNITY.
AND SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS IS REPRESENT.
AND AND IF YOU'RE IN A SITUATION WHERE YOU CAN'T FULLY REPRESENT BECAUSE I'VE HAD THIS CONVERSATION LATELY, SO I STILL KNOW MANY GAY EXECUTIVES WHO ARE IN THE CLOSET AT WORK FOR A VARIETY OF LEGITIMATE REASONS.
WHAT I SAY TO THEM THEN IS WHEN YOU GET OFF WORK, I WANT YOU TO SERVE.
I WANT YOU TO WORK AT THE LGBT CENTER.
I WANT YOU TO WORK ON LOCAL GAY CAUSES AND YOUR LOCAL PRIDE FEST.
LIKE THEN BRING THE BEST OF YOU OUTSIDE OF WORK.
IF YOU CAN'T DO IT ALL DAY AT WORK, THEN DO IT OUTSIDE OF WORK.
BECAUSE THEN I STILL WANT THE BEST OF YOU.
AND THAT REPRESENTATION CAN HAPPEN AFTER 6 P.M. WHEN YOU GET HOME.
YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE IF YOU'RE NOT ABLE TO DO IT AT WORK.
IT'S GREAT ADVICE.
AND, YOU KNOW, COMING OUT, BEING A FELLOW MIDWESTERNER GROWING UP IN MICHIGAN, NEXT NEXT DOOR TO YOU AND YEAH, YEAH.
YOU KNOW, ONE THING THAT I LEARNED VERY EARLY IN MY COMING OUT PROCESS WAS YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO CREATE ALLYSHIP JUST BY LETTING PEOPLE KNOW.
SO YOU'RE REPRESENTATION COMMENT AND YOU KNOW, THE FEAR AND THE THOUGHT OF THE POTENTIAL ISSUES THAT HAPPEN IN PLACES LIKE THE MIDWEST OR IN THE SOUTH, ETCETERA.
I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SURPRISED.
PEOPLE HAVE GOTTEN TO KNOW ME FIRST.
AND THEN AS YOU SHARE YOUR STORY, IT CREATES THIS REAL OPPORTUNITY AND YOU HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION.
ARE YOU GOING TO SPEND TIME EDUCATING?
ARE YOU GOING TO SPEND TIME HAVING THOSE CONVERSATIONS?
I'VE CHOSEN TO DO SO BECAUSE I WANT TO MAKE THAT DIFFERENCE.
BUT I THINK THAT FOLKS WILL BE SURPRISED AS THEY HAVE CONVERSATIONS THAT THEY FEEL ARE SAFE AND APPROPRIATE.
AND AND IT ACTUALLY BRINGS ME TO ANOTHER QUESTION AROUND EDUCATION.
YOU KNOW, THERE'S THERE'S THIS IDEA NOW OF, YOU KNOW, BE EDUCATED, KNOW, UNDERSTAND, BECOME AN ALLY.
YOU CAN GOOGLE IT.
IT'S SIMPLE.
YOU CAN LEARN.
BUT, YOU KNOW, FOR SOMEONE WHO'S SERVED ON A LOT OF BOARDS AND BEEN ENGAGED WITH A LOT OF DIFFERENT ACTIVITIES AND ORGANIZATIONS, DO YOU HAVE ANY RESOURCES THAT YOU MIGHT SHARE WITH LISTENERS THAT COULD BE HELPFUL FOR THEM TO LEARN OR TO GET SOME IDEAS ON HOW TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE OR BE MORE SUPPORTIVE OF WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TODAY.
CREATING A BETTER ENVIRONMENT IN THE WORKPLACE FOR.
PEOPLE.
YEAH ABSOLUTELY.
MEAN THINK I THINK YOU KNOW THE THE ORGANIZATION THAT WE SERVED ON GLISTENED THE GAY LESBIAN STRAIGHT EDUCATION NETWORK.
I MEAN THERE'S SOME INCREDIBLE NATIONAL NON-PROFITS IN OUR COMMUNITY THE HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN.
GLAD UH, TREVOR PROJECT, UH, POINT FOUNDATION LIKE THAT.
THERE'S A LOT TO YOUR POINT.
THERE'S A LOT OF EDUCATION AND RESOURCES OUT THERE.
IF YOU'RE WILLING TO TAKE THE TIME, YOU KNOW, AND DO A LITTLE BIT OF READING AND IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO MAKE DONATIONS OR PARTICIPATE.
UM, BUT JUST READ LIKE JUST, YOU KNOW, THEY ALL HAVE TOOLS ON THEIR WEBSITE OR TO YOUR POINT, YOU CAN GOOGLE AND FIND THE TOOLS.
BUT I THINK THE POINT THAT YOU MADE IS SO IMPORTANT AND THINK IT'S, YOU KNOW, WHY I WROTE THE BOOK IS I FEEL LIKE THE PATH OF CIVIL RIGHTS, NOT JUST GAY RIGHTS, BUT, YOU KNOW, WOMEN'S RIGHTS, BLACK RIGHTS, QUEER RIGHTS, LATIN, RIGHT.
LATINX RIGHTS.
UM, IT IS STORYTELLING.
LIKE I FEEL THAT'S THE FOUNDATION.
BECAUSE WHEN WE MOVE IN NEXT DOOR TO SOMEONE LIKE THAT'S A LOTTERY, YOU DON'T KNOW WHO YOU'RE GETTING AS A NEIGHBOR, RIGHT?
YOU DON'T REALLY GET TO INTERVIEW YOUR NEIGHBORS WHEN YOU BUY A HOUSE.
LIKE YOU KIND OF GET A SENSE OF THE COMMUNITY.
BUT WHEN YOU GO OVER AND INTRODUCE YOURSELF, YOU'RE EDUCATING IF YOU'RE, AGAIN, WILLING TO SHARE THE STORY.
AND I ALWAYS FEEL THAT LIKE ONCE AND WE TALKED ABOUT THIS A LOT IN THE 70S AND 80S, DAVID, YOU'LL REMEMBER IT'S LIKE ONCE SOMEONE KNOWS THEY HAVE PEOPLE GAY IN THEIR LIFE AND THEY'RE NOT WE'RE NOT THREATENING, RIGHT?
WE'RE NOT.
THEY'RE LIKE, OH, JIM'S GAY.
LIKE, HE'S LIKE, OH, HE'S AN INTERESTING GUY.
LIKE HIS DOG, RIGHT?
MEAN HE'S.
HE KEEPS HIS HOUSE NEAT, RIGHT?
LIKE, VERY MIDWESTERN.
RIGHT.
AND, AND AND BUT THEN WE BECOME LESS THREATENING, RIGHT?
BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT BOTHERS ME IN THE CURRENT SITUATION WE'RE IN AS A COMMUNICATIONS PERSON, AS A MARKETER, IS I FEEL TOO MUCH OF THE NARRATIVE RIGHT NOW IS BEING DRIVEN BY THE FAR RIGHT ABOUT OUR COMMUNITY.
AND THEY'RE TELLING EVERYBODY THAT WE'RE WRONG AND WE'RE DIFFERENT AND THAT WE'RE BROKEN AND THAT, YOU KNOW, DRAG DRAG QUEENS STORY HOURS ARE HARMFUL TO CHILDREN AND DRAG SHOWS IN GENERAL ARE HARMFUL.
ALL OF THAT NARRATIVE WE HAVE TO COUNTERACT WITH OUR PERSONAL NARRATIVES BECAUSE IT'S A VERY COORDINATED ATTACK FROM THE FAR RIGHT AND VERY WELL FUNDED.
AND I FEEL THAT WE'VE GOT TO OVERCOME THAT BY THE THOUSANDS AND MILLIONS OF LEGITIMATE STORIES.
AND I, I THINK YOUR BILLIE JEAN KING ONE IT'S SO FUNNY BECAUSE I JUST FINISHED WATCHING YESTERDAY WITH THE MEN'S FINAL.
YOU'RE 100% RIGHT.
THE OTHER THING IS HER WIFE IS ALWAYS SITTING RIGHT BESIDE HER.
UM, SHE'S SHE'S NOT WALKING AROUND WEARING BIG T SHIRTS AND CARRYING A PRIDE FLAG EVERYWHERE SHE GOES, BUT SHE IS LIVING HER AUTHENTIC LIFE.
AND TO ME, THAT IS WHAT WE ALL HAVE TO DO.
I MEAN, THAT'S HONESTLY WHY I WROTE THE BOOK.
AND AGAIN, I'M NOT CAVALIER.
I KNOW NOT EVERYONE CAN DO IT, BUT I WANT TO TRY TO CREATE ENVIRONMENTS WHERE PEOPLE CAN.
WELL.
AND JIM, IT MAKES IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.
I KNOW THE INSIGHTS YOU'RE SHARING TODAY ARE GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE AND PEOPLE ARE GOING TO PICK UP.
AND I KNOW THAT FOLKS ENGAGING IN YOUR BOOK WILL AS WELL.
BUT ONE THING THAT I THINK WOULD BE REALLY INTERESTING, MY LAST QUESTION FOR YOU FOR FOR LISTENERS WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, WHO'S INSPIRED YOU ALONG THE WAY.
YOU KNOW, WE TALK ABOUT SETTING EXAMPLES AND TAKING TAKING THE RISK AND DOING THIS OURSELVES.
BUT I'D LOVE FOR YOU TO IMAGINE YOU'RE HOSTING A LITTLE DINNER PARTY, A LITTLE CLOUT FOR GOOD DINNER PARTY, WHO ARE A FEW QUEER ICONS THAT HAVE INSPIRED YOU ALONG THE WAY, AND WHY DID THEY MAKE AN IMPACT ON YOU?
YEAH, I LOVE I LOVE THIS QUESTION.
UM, I MEAN, I THINK IT WOULD BE A REALLY INTERESTING DINNER PARTY.
LET'S JUST SAY THAT, UM, I, I OKAY, I'LL TRY AND THINK OF THREE, BUT LARRY KRAMER.
LARRY KRAMER, FOR SURE.
I THINK AS A CHILD, YOU KNOW, AS A GAY MAN WHO CAME OUT DURING THE AIDS CRISIS AND WE NEVER CAN FORGET THAT.
AND BY THE WAY, WE STILL HAVE HIV AND AIDS IN OUR COMMUNITY.
BUT THE 70S AND 80S AND WHAT WE WENT THROUGH AND WHAT LARRY DID FOR THE COMMUNITY BY BEING SO VOCAL AND SO PASSIONATE AND SO CONTROVERSIAL, BUT CONTROVERSIAL FOR ALL THE RIGHT REASONS, I THINK WE STAND ON HIS SHOULDERS.
I HAVE A PERSON IN MY LIFE WHO'S ON THE FOUNDATION BOARD WITH ME AT INDIANA UNIVERSITY.
DAVID JACOBS, WHO IS DONATED THE FUNDS FOR THE JACOBS SCHOOL OF MUSIC AND UNIVERSITY, WAS REALLY THE FIRST OUT GAY MAN ON THE FOUNDATION BOARD OF DIRECTORS WHO HAS PAVED THE WAY FOR MANY OF US IN OUR COMMUNITY AND INDIANA UNIVERSITY TO BE FULLY SAFE AND ACKNOWLEDGED IN THOSE RANKS OF DONORS AND PHILANTHROPISTS.
AND IT'S IT'S FUNNY THAT YOU BROUGHT HER UP, BUT I WAS GOING TO BRING UP BILLIE JEAN KING TODAY BECAUSE IN A WEIRD WAY THAT, YOU KNOW, I OFTEN TELL.
THE STORY OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND QUEER RIGHTS AND BLACK RIGHTS GO TOGETHER.
RIGHT?
AND HER FIGHT, WHICH STARTED AS FIGHT FOR EQUAL PAY AND EQUAL REPRESENTATION FOR WOMEN.
SHE THEN QUICKLY MOVED ON TO EQUAL REPRESENTATION FOR THE QUEER COMMUNITY.
BUT IT STARTED WITH HER WORK ON EQUAL REPRESENTATION AND RIGHTS FOR WOMEN AND THINK SO MANY OF THE PATHS TO CIVIL RIGHTS AND RECOGNITION ARE VERY SIMILAR FOR ALL MARGINALIZED COMMUNITIES.
AND THINK BILLIE JEAN IS SUCH A GREAT LIVING EXAMPLE OF THAT AND AND WHAT SHE'S DONE FOR WOMEN IN SPORTS IN GENERAL, BUT THEN WHAT SHE DID FOR THE QUEER COMMUNITY AS WELL.
UM, I THINK THAT WOULD BE A REALLY FUN DINNER PARTY.
I THINK IT WOULD BE AN AMAZING DINNER PARTY.
LOVE IT.
YEAH, THINK.
THINK.
YOU KNOW, AND THE OTHER THE OTHER PERSON IN THAT VEIN WHO'S TALKING ABOUT YOUR ALLYSHIP.
AND I TALKED ABOUT HER.
I WAS WITH SOME STUDENTS LAST WEEK.
RUTH BADER GINSBURG LIKE RBG, I WISH I WOULD HAVE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SIT AND TALK WITH THAT WOMAN BECAUSE, AGAIN, THE WORK SHE DID FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS, SHE WAS ACTUALLY DOING WORK FOR ALL MARGINALIZED COMMUNITIES.
AND WHEN YOU GO BACK AND WATCH THE DOCUMENTARY AND WATCH IT AS A GAY MAN, YOU REALIZE HOW MUCH WE OWE TO THAT WOMAN AS WELL.
UM, HER JUST INTELLIGENCE AND QUIET STRENGTH AND AND TENACITY.
SHE, TO ME, IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF PERSISTENCE AND TENACITY.
WISH WOULD I WISH I WOULD HAVE HAD A RIGHT WAY TO MEET HER?
YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.
THAT'S.
THAT'S GREAT.
WELL, THANK YOU.
AND, YOU KNOW, JIM, THANKS FOR JOINING ME TODAY.
THANKS FOR THANKS FOR YOUR LISTEN, IT'S VULNERABILITY.
IT'S HONESTY.
IT'S REAL PRACTICAL ADVICE.
SO I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.
AND CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR BOOK, ALL PRIDE, NO EGO.
AND FOR THOSE LISTENERS WHO WANT TO GET A COPY OF THE BOOK, VISIT AMAZON, BARNES AND NOBLE SHOP, QUEER OR WHEREVER YOU BUY YOUR BOOKS AND BE ON THE LOOKOUT, GO TO JIM'S SITE.
ALL PRIDE, NO EGO.
HE'S ON A BOOK TOUR.
HE MAY BE STOPPING TO A CITY NEAR YOU AND TO MY LISTENERS.
THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING TODAY.
PLEASE TUNE IN EVERY OTHER WEEK ON WEDNESDAYS FOR A NEW EPISODE.
FOLLOW US ON SOCIAL AND VISIT CLOUD FOR GOOD.
TO SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER.
I HOPE THIS EPISODE GIVES YOU THE MOTIVATION TO USE YOUR CLOUT FOR GOOD AND TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
THANK YOU.