So much of of my journey professionally and personally has been about finding like minded individuals, whether they're they're gay or they're straight.
You can't underestimate the power of of finding people who are allies.
Where would the LGBTQ community be without our allies?
And so finding allies within the company who can who can mentor you, where you feel comfortable asking those questions, asking for advice on how you might navigate coming out or sharing your personal story.
People within that culture will be will be super helpful.
Hello everyone and welcome.
Clout for Good is a biweekly podcast that showcases personal and powerful conversations with prominent Lgbtq+ executives who are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant to create a supportive community to inspire Lgbtq+ people, their employers and allies to build equity and inclusion in the workplace.
Today, I'm honored to welcome Gail Overman, who's the chief marketing officer at iHeartMedia, where she leverages the company's extensive range of content experiences and technologies to bring brands together with consumers across all of the company's businesses.
She's also served as chief marketing and ideas officer at IPG Media Brands and before that spent 16 years at Microsoft as chief creative officer, where she was responsible for the company's portfolio of brands and all global advertising.
Gail, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to be on the show today.
Oh, thanks, David.
Great to be here.
Well, you know, before I get started, I wanted to to say a special thank you to you and your team for the creation of and the continued support of the Outspoken Podcast Network.
We appreciate you creating a platform to spotlight Lgbtq+ Voices.
I personally love listening to Rosie O'Donnell's new podcast, Onward.
Can you tell us a little bit about the reception of this and the importance of the network?
Sure.
You know, it's interesting.
We.
When we were just getting into podcasting a few years back, we I was on the board of an organization called Makers that does a lot of important work around gender equality.
And every year at their big annual event, they would encourage all of the board members to get up on a stage at a big public event and make a commitment to gender equality.
And this was the year, like I said, we had we had just acquired stuff media, and we were just starting to really build our iHeart podcast network.
And I called the head of our iHeart podcast network and said, Hey, I was about to make a commitment.
I think podcasting is going to be such an interesting area, and if we don't overtly and proactively think about equality and who we give the mic to will probably repeat the mistakes of past media and it just as pod before podcasting was starting to explode, we had a great conversation with some of our execs about how could we, how could we hold ourselves accountable and how can we proactively think about equality and diversity as we build a new medium that we hoped would become as big as it has is the number one podcast network that we've now built.
And so we made a public commitment at that Makers event years back to ensure that at least 50% of our creators and our investments in new podcasts were diverse.
And that reflected, you know, all types of diversity.
So gender equality and race and sexuality.
And that led to some amazing, amazing projects, including the outspoken network where we intentionally make sure that we are getting behind LGBTQ creators and we're giving them the mic and letting them create, whether it's, you know, sports or comedy or storytelling or true crime or, you know, whatever genre they want to create in.
We've been really diligent.
We created the Black Effect Podcast Network has a lot of hit shows, the Michael Torah podcast network that's building a lot of big hits with a lot of amazing creators.
And now we're just beginning that journey with Outspoken as well.
So we're really proud of that work.
And it came out of just asking, asking the question.
Yeah, right.
Well, well, I'm certainly grateful for it.
And we're sitting here today, you know, to to talk a little bit about it from our own perspective.
So I really appreciate the time today and we could jump right in.
So I'm I'm really interested to hear, um, your experience with, you know, coming to terms with your own identity and, and working towards your own authenticity in the workplace.
So can you tell us a little bit about when you came out, what was your experience, just your point of view on the on, on, on coming and becoming more of yourself in the workplace?
Sure.
You know, I often tell people like, you know, I think I've been incredibly fortunate professionally as I've sort of come to terms with my identity and my own journey.
And I've been really fortunate and lucky think to work with and for a lot of humans who were very supportive and understanding about that journey.
When I started in my early ad days on the agency side in advertising and PR, you know, I had a couple of, uh, bosses who were in, in the inner inner circle who were legitimate friends who were helping me personally and therefore professionally.
There was never some big aha coming out moment because I was working with people who were friends.
And that's always a luxury in any time and any point in your career.
And then somewhere in the in the mid 90s I, I got a call from someone at Microsoft.
We had pitched some business, we didn't win with them and I'd met some people and they were trying to recruit me to come to Redmond and work on some early, early internet projects.
And in retrospect, you know, I didn't even probably fully understand the power of this at the time.
But in retrospect, the person who who hired me at Microsoft, he was just amazing, amazing technology and creative genius.
And and he had gotten my card from someone and the CMO at Microsoft and and called me at home one night back before cell phones.
And we had this incredible conversation.
We just clicked.
And he was so smart and interesting.
And then it didn't even occur to me until later that that whole process of inviting me out to interview for a secret job on a.
Project on the Internet that I barely even been on.
He never used pronouns.
If we didn't even use.
We didn't talk about pronouns back then, right?
Yeah.
And and he, you know, there were certain things like, hey, we want to fly you out to interview if it could be, you know, we'd love to meet you.
And if, if there's anyone important enough to you that you'd like to bring them with you out to Redmond, we'd love to pay for that.
Wow.
And it kind of went the same way on the job offer.
And then I took the job and there were domestic partner benefits in 1996, and that's how far ahead Microsoft really was.
And full credit to the the executive team there back in the day.
They really were way ahead of, I think, the trends in in really making it easy to find the smartest, most, you know, experienced, best, most passionate people and make it easy for them to come work at that company.
It's amazing.
I mean, it's great to hear about that because my very first job also in the early 90s, um, my boss at the time I received two holiday party invitations, didn't know why, didn't know what was going on at the time.
I had quietly come out.
And yet I think he clearly had heard that or figured that out.
And one was to his quote unquote, gay party and one was to his non-gay party.
And so it really is, you know, for I think, those that have been before us, how they felt, the need to hide.
And and I think it was a challenging time.
It's great to hear and think, you know, many people, they want to be more authentic.
They want to come out.
Maybe they're not as in as inviting of an environment like agency worlds, potentially, or maybe Microsoft, as you described.
You know, people are looking for their next paycheck.
They're looking for their next promotion.
There's a lot of things they need to consider.
What what advice would you give younger queer professionals or maybe even more seasoned, closeted queer employees about taking that risk or considering that risk and potentially coming out or at least trying to move towards a greater level of authenticity in the workplace?
Sure.
You know, I think a lot of it, you know, it's like anything when you're you're trying to move a big project forward or something new and getting it off the ground.
Right.
It's really important, I think, to find some allies and some support.
And, you know, I know for me way back, the fact that I had a boss who I was friends with and was part of my journey and understood that made it a lot easier for that to to normalize.
So I would definitely encourage people to, you know, find someone, whether it's someone you work for or with or someone in another area of the company, someone that may be out already, who can be an advocate or provide advice, who knows?
Who knows the the politics and the culture of the organization you're in.
The other thing, you know, I think is really important.
My wife was a teacher for for most of her career after a little Wall Street time.
And and you know, she always says that that one of the most important things is a teacher is is meeting people where they are.
And I think that's something that's easy to forget is, as you know, some places are so progressive and some aren't there yet.
And some individuals have had experience and had a chance to internalize and understand.
And some people haven't had those same experiences yet.
And maybe you can help them understand and and and feel like it's okay to learn with you, but think you have to meet the student where they are.
So so don't expect you know everything won't always go perfectly and and I think as as companies learn as managers learn as peers and employees kind of learn, you have to give them some space to make mistakes too.
And always try to remind people of that.
Some of it might be intentional, some might be unintentional, but but everyone's going to going to kind of learn at their own pace.
I think it's great advice and I think the importance of this over the years, I had often thought in the last maybe decade, you know, is coming out still important.
And quite frankly, one of the reasons to have this podcast is I realize how few people are truly and authentically out in the workplace and what challenges truly do exist and the importance to your point of showing up, being aware, driving awareness, being able to mentor and have conversations with other employees is really, really, really important.
And one of the things on this podcast that I'll be doing is talking with folks that are a part of the Lgbtq+ community and across the entire spectrum.
So I certainly know my experience as a gay man.
And I'm curious, anything unique from your perspective about navigating the workplace as a lesbian, anything unique, anything that's been challenging for you?
And have you found yourself?
So one part of the question, is anything unique because of that?
And the second would be and have you found yourself in positions where you do hide your identity?
Have you found yourself in a position where you know, today I'm not going to to have that conversation, You know, think another thing to bring up for folks is you don't just come out once you're coming out all the time.
There's always a new group, There's always a new person.
So so any unique experiences and any times that maybe you've hidden your identity at work for for any reason.
Um.
Interesting.
You know.
I wouldn't go as far as to say, hidden.
Um, I, you know, I do think we all find ourselves in situations where, you know, we're none of us are monolithic or no one thing.
We're not just gay.
We're not just right marketers.
We're, you know, we're we're an amalgam of all these different parts of our identity.
And, you know, think like everyone there's there's certain settings where you might feel more comfortable leaning into.
When you and I met at at the Forbes summit about a year ago.
Right?
That's right.
Probably much more comfortable leaning into a story about my wife or, you know, the the the topics that that you clearly get to as a as an LGBTQ person.
Whereas, you know, there might be other environments where, you know, you're you're with a, you know, less diverse group of individuals.
And I might lean into the fact that I'm a Patriots fan before I lean into a story about my my marriage and my wife and my sexuality and think we all do that.
You know, I don't know if I'd call it hiding, but but think there you know, as I said, sort of meeting people where they are.
I won't go out of my way to not tell a story or answer a question or be honest or truthful about my life.
But I also might not pick that as my go to topic.
If I sense it's not going to it's not going to be the easiest conversation or it might make people uncomfortable in, you know.
Yeah, I think, you know yeah.
One of my prior guests, you know, talked a little bit about.
You know, he he had become a master of sort of switching his identity, you know, code switching, a bit of reading a room and understanding.
I think that's what you're alluding to.
And it is a it is something I think, you know, maybe not everyone has to to do this, but you do sort of assess the room.
You do sort of see what the situation is like.
And and I agree.
It's not that you're hiding and it's not that you don't want people to know, but you, you know, think to some degree.
I always view that as a little bit of I want to keep myself safe.
I want to keep myself comfortable.
I want to know how I can participate and let that kind of unfold, you know, as it as it as it can naturally.
Well, you know, the the leadership positions you've held and the position you hold today, you have an enormous amount of influence.
And, you know, living authentically is certainly commendable and and applauded by our community.
And I know that it makes a difference.
But I'm curious, as you think about your career and I know sometimes this is hard, but where have you like what I like to say is where have you used your clout, you know, your out ness?
Where have you used your clout for good in a way that you're you're proud that you saw some change, that you saw maybe your workplace change and employer change?
A colleague What are some examples of things that you've done that people might be able to consider doing on their own as an example?
Uh, sure.
Well, we talked about the making a public commitment to at least 50% diversity as we built what gratefully has become a massive podcast network.
So we're, we're giving the mic to lots of diverse people with different points of view and letting them build their business, their brand and their careers.
Um, there are a couple of other projects.
Interestingly, during Covid that we got off the ground and it was such an interesting time because money was tighter than ever before, obviously.
And you know, the media market was being challenged, but there was also just a willingness, I think, because we had to get scrappy and reimagine and rethink things to get some interesting projects off the ground.
One of them I'm hugely proud of was a partnership with our friends at P&G.
And we we realized that actually the the folks at P&G came to us and they they sort of had this important insight that all of the LGBTQ causes usually do the majority of their fundraising in June and that 1st June during Covid, they weren't going to be able to have the galas and the events and entertain and do all the things you would do normally to raise money to fund all of these important nonprofits.
And so they came to us and said we wanted to figure out some kind of fundraiser.
Would I heart be willing to participate?
Could you help us?
And that was in it was in like mid May, I want to say, or early May guess, you know, think the whole project came together in about 28, 30 days and we created what what is now a franchise for us both called Cancel Pride.
And it was a fundraiser for six Lgbtq+ organizations that do important work from Glad to center link to outright international and and on and on.
And they all do important work in different areas of the community.
And for many of them that year we raised almost their entire operating budgets through putting together what we know how to do at iHeart, which is we got the artists and the music community and the entertainment community behind doing a virtual show.
And it was sort of a very impromptu scrappy from home on, you know, teams kind of a variety show.
And the the entertainment community showed up in a huge way.
P&G and some brand partners showed up in a huge way.
And it was it was just a phenomenal project.
We're going into year five now.
We continue to raise money every year.
We continue to put an amazing show together and get a message out again across, you know, all our iHeart stations out into the community.
And it's so powerful not just to to be able to support these organizations and the work that needs to be done, But but also to be able to watch like the social that happens during a show like that, to be able to see, you know, kids who might not have access to to supportive communities, to hear from all of these diverse and different people, to hear messages of support.
And we've had so many artists, gay and straight and and everything in between come out and support this this mission.
And again, it's one of those projects that I felt really fortunate to have the clout to be able to to push it forward.
It was it was it was a massive beast of a project to get off the ground when everything else was was challenging during Covid.
But but to have the clout, to be able to push projects like that forward is a it's a gift.
And and think, you know, many of us take really seriously and and are very grateful that that we have the opportunity to do important work like that.
That's that's awesome and I love that this came from this challenging time where now it's become the norm.
We're we're sitting here at home, but some of us but it's really great that that came out of something like that And and actually one of the things later on that I was going to ask you about, Gail and maybe this is a nice segue, is you had mentioned a few as you were talking about your example.
Um, one of the things that I like to do is also the folks that I have on the podcast have worked with and have a lot of great experiences with organizations.
And one of the things that I like to do is ask if there's any organizations or resources or tools that you might point listeners to as they're on their journey for their own authenticity or for working with their employer.
Around, DNI or otherwise.
Are there any organizations you might point folks to or resources you might mention?
You know, I've recently joined the Board of Lesbians who tech that I think is just a phenomenal organization.
Again, in a more sort of straight male world of engineering and technology.
I think they've been doing some amazing work.
Obviously, I happen to know about that coming out of the tech industry and joining their board recently.
But I think they're you know, I encourage people to within your your industry see if there's something within your company.
Very often there are organizations, whether they're official or sort of unofficial within a lot of corporate cultures.
And also, you know, so much of of my journey professionally and personally has been about finding like minded individuals, whether they're they're gay or they're straight.
You can't underestimate the power of of finding people who are allies.
Where would the LGBTQ community be without our allies?
And so finding allies within the company who can who can mentor you, where you feel comfortable asking those questions, asking for advice on how you might navigate coming out or sharing your personal story.
People within that culture will be will be super helpful.
So whether it's a particular organization or it's really just start with 1 or 2 individuals and the more you have the conversation about the conversation, the easier it'll become.
Yeah.
And lesbians, you check.
I've watched them for quite a while and seen what seems like a great organization, a lot of opportunity for getting involved and mentoring and opportunities to connect.
It seems like a like a great organization.
Um, another question would be for you is you think maybe hit on a few ideas already, but you know, often there's employees that are listening to this podcast who may be, um, our allies, they may be a part of the LGBTQ community, but there are folks who really want to potentially make a change and want to, to, to see a more inclusive and equitable environment for all.
But specifically with our focus today for for queer employees, what advice is you've navigated and learned from these these organizations, these large organizations you've worked for?
What advice do you have for for companies?
What what can they do?
What are some things that they can put into place?
Are sure you know.
Think you know think for companies it's it's just important on all fronts to create an environment of inclusion and inclusivity.
Certainly in hiring diversifying the organization.
Obviously hard to to change things in an instant, but making sure that you're consciously thinking about diversity when you're every time you're you do have the luxury of posting a new job or interviewing people, making sure that you're going out of your way to help.
Um, to help to help your employees and your managers understand the importance of that.
You know, I know at iHeart, we we are live right now while we're speaking just on our broadcast radio 860 plus stations.
We are in the, you know, the smallest little news talk format in a little tiny red state.
And we are on the biggest urban hip hop pop shows and the biggest urban centers and everywhere in between pop, hip hop, country, K-Pop, all to news and sports.
And and so, you know, it's really important to us that that, you know, we we reflect all of those communities and that we're in touch with those sort of real American communities.
So, you know, for for for us, you know, think it's it's important that our workforce increasingly reflects all of those communities that we serve and all of those individuals, because we we reach nine out of ten Americans on any any given month.
So we need to reflect back how all those different communities and all those groups kind of think and feel and understand.
So I think that's super important.
And, you know, think as you hire the that's probably where you can make the most most impact.
I love that as a as a fellow marketer, you know, it's sort of knowing your customer to the nth degree that's really and providing for them.
That's really amazing what you guys are doing.
Well, one one more question for you, Gail, and I'm super excited to ask you this question in particular.
I ask everyone this, but, um, you know, you've, you've been out there making a difference.
You know, we've talked a lot about these great examples through your career, but who has inspired you along the way?
And, you know, the way that I'll frame this question is imagine you're hosting a dinner party.
It's a it's a clout for good dinner party.
And you can invite 2 or 3 of your queer icons, you know, and again, excited to ask you, with all of the talent and creators and all of the folks that you've worked with, I can imagine it probably would be hard to even narrow it down.
But but as you've gone through your career, who are a few people that have inspired you?
Uh, sure.
You know, thinking about that dinner party and and icons and, you know, there's there's what would be crazy fun and then who inspired you?
And sometimes they align.
Sometimes they don't.
Sure.
God, I would love to have a conversation about this topic with Eleanor Roosevelt.
Imagine what she probably went through.
I don't know, you know, gay icon or not.
But, you know, I'd recently seen that first lady series just phenomenal, you know, thinking about probably the challenges and yet the impact that that she was able to have with the seat she had or didn't officially have at the table.
So I just thought that would just be a phenomenal, fascinating conversation to be had.
Um, I.
Think, you know, I just I just watched that also just this, this year.
And I walked away and said I had no idea.
I think I've just skimmed the surface on Eleanor Roosevelt.
I've and I'm using this media to consume more insights.
I got I've got to go do more research.
I've got to go learn more.
I was so impressed and so inspired.
And, you know, there what a hardship.
Right, Right.
I mean, the way that they navigated it together.
And then what she really did to make some really profound changes along the way.
It was really, really impressive.
It's a great example.
Right, of clout for good.
Right.
Using the power that that she had officially or unofficially to really, you know, change, you know, change history.
It it.
Really is.
What she could have done today.
That's right.
And your example of, you know, gender equality and holding those press conferences where female reporters are the only the only ones that are going to be going to be invited and everyone just about losing their mind.
What do you mean back then?
Right.
Like.
You know, think if we did that today, people would lose their minds, Right?
It's really it's really, really true.
Who else?
Anybody else you'd invite to that table.
I think is just, you know, just done, I think, phenomenal work, you know, creatively and, you know, within his his his medium.
But also think in in changing culture and and driving acceptance and and perspective without always making that the primary agenda.
I think Ryan Murphy has just just been incredible at bringing LGBTQ characters into our living rooms across America in ways, you know again that that that met the the viewer where they were right that made it accessible and made it easy enough for people to, you know, to to to normalize.
So I just think, you know, I'd love to you know, I'd love to have a conversation with him.
I'd love to have dinner and pick his brain and and understand where where he thinks things are going next because he's got such a pulse on.
Culture.
Such a pulse, such a creator.
I was so impressed with his acceptance speech for his award at the Golden Globes and turn that around to the audience to highlight his trans actors, creators, partners and other partners that were there and just very impressed with how he handled that and certainly have appreciated and been a part of consuming those amazing stories myself.
So.
Well, I love it.
I'd love to be invited when you have that party, for sure.
Um, so Gail, thank you so much for joining me today.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for representing thanks for all you do throughout your career, but specifically now at iHeartMedia to amplify queer voices.
It's it's greatly appreciated and celebrated.
You can check out iHeart to explore music, radio and podcasts, including the impressive outspoken Lgbtq+ podcast network that we talked about a little earlier.
And to my listeners, thanks so much for joining today.
Please tune in every other week on Wednesdays for a new episode.
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I hope that this episode gives you inspiration and motivation to use your clout for good to make a difference.
Thanks for tuning in.