WEBVTT 00:00:00.029 --> 00:00:09.528 To be an inspiration for people to not fear themselves in the world, I think is something that I'm very, very proud of. 00:00:09.596 --> 00:00:17.550 I hear from people frequently, you know, you were the first person I ever saw who was like me, and you gave me the courage. 00:00:17.615 --> 00:00:18.719 Even though we never met. 00:00:18.786 --> 00:00:22.170 You gave me the courage to move forward on my journey. 00:00:25.829 --> 00:00:27.210 Hello everyone and welcome. 00:00:27.275 --> 00:00:36.960 Clout for Good is a bi weekly podcast that showcases personal and powerful conversations with prominent Lgbtq+ executives who are out in the workplace. 00:00:37.026 --> 00:00:47.310 The conversations are meant to create a supportive community to inspire Lgbtq+ people, their employers and allies to build equity and inclusion in the workplace. 00:00:47.789 --> 00:00:51.719 Today, I'm honored to welcome Jameson Greene to Klout for good. 00:00:51.786 --> 00:00:59.609 Jamison was born in Oakland, California, and he always knew he would be a writer, a career goal that led to many adventures. 00:00:59.676 --> 00:01:03.450 He earned his MFA in Creative Writing from the University of Oregon. 00:01:03.515 --> 00:01:17.938 He transitioned medically and legally from female to male, from 1988 to 1991 while working at Sun Microsystems and went on to work for Visa, where we met and where he was the director of technical publications. 00:01:18.006 --> 00:01:22.858 He's published numerous articles and books on many aspects of transgendered health and rights. 00:01:22.926 --> 00:01:28.500 And finally, he's the author of an award winning memoir called Becoming a Visible Man. 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:36.420 Jameson and I led the Visa Lgbtq+ ERG Employee Resource Group while we work together at Visa. 00:01:36.486 --> 00:01:38.608 And it's great to see you again, Jamison. 00:01:38.676 --> 00:01:39.569 Thanks for joining. 00:01:40.379 --> 00:01:41.340 Thank you, David. 00:01:41.406 --> 00:01:43.170 It's a pleasure to be with you again. 00:01:43.409 --> 00:01:44.010 Yeah. 00:01:44.188 --> 00:01:57.780 So listen, I wanted to start as I mentioned, Jamison has a award winning book that's out there, and I wanted to start by reading an excerpt from his book, Becoming a Visible Man. 00:01:57.846 --> 00:02:04.560 In the book, you say, Don't be afraid to be yourself or let others be themselves. 00:02:04.626 --> 00:02:07.920 Just don't hurt yourself or anyone else in the process. 00:02:07.986 --> 00:02:13.169 Life's too valuable a gift to waste on anything less than kindness. 00:02:13.235 --> 00:02:13.979 I love. 00:02:14.045 --> 00:02:15.030 I love this sentiment. 00:02:15.096 --> 00:02:15.628 I love this. 00:02:15.695 --> 00:02:17.520 This quote from from your book. 00:02:17.586 --> 00:02:26.938 Can you start by telling us a bit more about your journey to be more authentic yourself, both personally and the workplace? 00:02:27.870 --> 00:02:28.949 Sure. 00:02:30.030 --> 00:02:33.960 It starts it starts way back in kindergarten. 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:45.270 I knew I was different from both the other girls and the other boys, but I didn't know how or any words to put on it. 00:02:45.870 --> 00:02:49.889 I just knew that I was not like them and. 00:02:52.378 --> 00:02:52.949 I just. 00:02:53.015 --> 00:02:53.515 I just. 00:02:53.582 --> 00:02:54.240 But I just. 00:02:54.568 --> 00:03:06.688 Well, I have to say, I had two wonderful parents who adopted me at the age of one month and had no idea what they were getting. 00:03:06.930 --> 00:03:21.330 And they gave me unconditional love, which I know is a tremendous foundation for my ability to express myself and to to act in the world. 00:03:22.020 --> 00:03:35.848 And even though they were upset about a lot of things that I did and ways that I addressed and ideas that I had sometimes, and my father always said, you can't fight city Hall. 00:03:36.030 --> 00:04:01.288 And I said, oh, yeah, but but, you know, we just I just I had that foundation, even though it wasn't 100%, you know, hearts and flowers, I in the workplace, I had odd jobs until I got out of college. 00:04:01.500 --> 00:04:04.139 Nothing was ever really meaningful. 00:04:04.650 --> 00:04:12.330 And I got out of college and I with my MFA and creative writing and I could not find a job. 00:04:12.395 --> 00:04:14.098 It was 1972. 00:04:14.460 --> 00:04:16.528 There was a recession going on. 00:04:18.449 --> 00:04:20.910 I couldn't even get a job in a gas station. 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:24.569 And I mean, it was it was really, really difficult. 00:04:24.636 --> 00:04:30.990 And finally I walked into the telephone company and there I was. 00:04:31.055 --> 00:04:46.290 And, you know, I had a female body, although people couldn't tell that I was a girl, a lot of times I was wearing jeans and an army jacket and I said, hi, Do you need any writers or photographers? 00:04:46.355 --> 00:04:51.240 And, you know, I can I can do anything really. 00:04:51.305 --> 00:04:56.850 And they said, Do you think you could climb a telephone pole and and lift a manhole cover? 00:04:56.915 --> 00:04:59.588 And I said, I said I could do anything. 00:04:59.656 --> 00:05:04.230 And so I went through their battery of tests later. 00:05:04.295 --> 00:05:10.588 Much later, I found out they were under a consent decree to hire women and minorities in non-traditional jobs. 00:05:10.949 --> 00:05:19.050 And I just happened to be the first female bodied person to be hired as a construction cable splicer. 00:05:20.670 --> 00:05:23.610 And this was in Pacific Northwest Bell. 00:05:23.675 --> 00:05:29.069 They already used women as cable splicers in cities like New York. 00:05:29.670 --> 00:05:39.689 But in those places, cable Splicer was it was like walking to an office and walking into a giant room where there were splices everywhere. 00:05:39.755 --> 00:05:50.310 And you just sat down at a splice and and connected wires out in Oregon where I was, it was it was rough. 00:05:50.375 --> 00:06:05.069 And and you had to carry giant nitrogen tanks into woods and place them somewhere and you had to be on a telephone pole that was leaning over a river. 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:08.278 You know, you had to climb all the way up there with all your tools. 00:06:08.346 --> 00:06:12.540 And and it was it was a very, very difficult job. 00:06:13.230 --> 00:06:19.139 And they never thought I would actually handle it because I was so small. 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:23.100 But I was they you know, they put me through the training program. 00:06:23.165 --> 00:06:31.500 And I think what they were trying to do, frankly, was make was prove that they couldn't find any women who could qualify. 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:39.838 And they admitted that I was one of the I was one of the best climbers they had ever seen in the line school. 00:06:40.230 --> 00:06:48.569 And and then they offered me a job as a janitor building janitor. 00:06:48.636 --> 00:06:56.459 And I said, look, I don't know what a cable splicer is, but I do know what a janitor is. 00:06:56.730 --> 00:07:04.769 So I probably didn't go to college for six years to become a cable splicer, but I signed up to do it. 00:07:04.836 --> 00:07:05.970 I qualified. 00:07:06.036 --> 00:07:09.660 I passed your training program and I'm going to be a cable splicer. 00:07:10.860 --> 00:07:23.699 They said, okay, So it was it's this sort of, you know, look, I said it, I'm going to do it, you know, kind of attitude. 00:07:23.766 --> 00:07:24.778 I'm showing up. 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:33.750 And that, I think, was was something that carried me through much of my very diverse career. 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:41.970 And, you know, it was tough because I got a lot of ribbing from guys. 00:07:42.036 --> 00:07:45.838 And, you know, I just I just handled it very coolly. 00:07:46.259 --> 00:07:50.730 You know, at one point, I was critiqued for taking a job that. 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:54.720 Some man might be able to have to feed his family. 00:07:54.786 --> 00:07:58.930 And I said, Oh, what makes you think I don't have a family to feed? 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:04.088 And they they were kind of like, Oh, of course they didn't. 00:08:04.156 --> 00:08:19.990 But, you know, I always I always try to stay calm, relaxed in the face of a challenge and suss out where there are access points to make change. 00:08:21.810 --> 00:08:22.310 Well. 00:08:22.375 --> 00:08:33.690 And Jamieson, as you then moved into utilising your writing skills and progressing from splicing into the corporate sort of technology world. 00:08:33.899 --> 00:08:35.519 How did that how did that change? 00:08:35.586 --> 00:08:38.308 Were the experiences any different or. 00:08:38.375 --> 00:08:45.960 And at the time I also know you were going through your transition, so there probably were a lot of other things happening in addition. 00:08:46.168 --> 00:08:49.649 How did that change as you then moved into a more corporate world? 00:08:49.716 --> 00:08:52.019 As I went into the corporate world. 00:08:52.740 --> 00:08:54.750 I couldn't figure out what to wear. 00:08:55.139 --> 00:09:03.538 I really wanted to wear jeans and flannel shirts and work boots and stuff, but I couldn't in a corporate environment. 00:09:04.980 --> 00:09:22.019 So I basically just found a kind of clothing style that I could live with, which was slacks, men's slacks and, you know, just a shirt, regular old Oxford kind of shirt. 00:09:22.259 --> 00:09:30.690 And sometimes I'd wear a vest or I'd wear a blazer, and I tried to buy blazers in women's department. 00:09:30.755 --> 00:09:38.370 I was afraid to shop in the men's department for too many articles of clothing. 00:09:40.019 --> 00:09:41.548 Pants was one thing, but. 00:09:41.615 --> 00:09:53.100 But any almost anything else kind of scared me a little bit because I was I was afraid people would judge me, but I couldn't be any different than I was. 00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:56.620 So I was just trying to figure all that out. 00:09:56.686 --> 00:09:58.769 It was very, very confusing. 00:09:59.250 --> 00:10:11.009 But I carried myself into interviews and into work situations just by knowing that I could do the job. 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:13.139 It's just it was always about the job. 00:10:13.206 --> 00:10:14.278 It was never about me. 00:10:14.346 --> 00:10:15.120 And so I know. 00:10:15.186 --> 00:10:16.918 Look at me, you can look at me. 00:10:16.985 --> 00:10:24.570 But, you know, I know I don't fit your ideas about what a woman should be and certainly not what a man should be. 00:10:24.635 --> 00:10:27.629 But look, I'm. 00:10:27.696 --> 00:10:29.519 I'm here to do the job, and I can. 00:10:29.586 --> 00:10:30.440 I can do it. 00:10:30.505 --> 00:10:31.350 Let me show you. 00:10:32.278 --> 00:10:43.980 And building relationships and that basis moved me pretty rapidly once I got into a corporation up the food chain. 00:10:45.269 --> 00:10:47.850 Just being competent was important. 00:10:47.916 --> 00:11:15.690 And, you know, I, I remember after I'd worked at a medical device manufacturing company as their only writer for a year at the Christmas party, the the, the HR director got a little bit tipsy and she told me that when I came in to interview for that job, she could not tell whether I was a man or a woman. 00:11:15.870 --> 00:11:25.048 And so she kept asking me questions that would elicit me saying something about whether I was male or female. 00:11:25.115 --> 00:11:26.668 And I never did. 00:11:28.288 --> 00:11:31.918 And she so but but she liked me so much. 00:11:33.178 --> 00:11:36.000 She gave me the job. 00:11:36.899 --> 00:11:38.308 So, you know, it's. 00:11:38.375 --> 00:11:41.970 Just well, luckily and and luckily to her, that didn't matter. 00:11:42.035 --> 00:11:42.535 Right. 00:11:42.602 --> 00:11:43.102 And I. 00:11:43.169 --> 00:11:43.950 Right, right. 00:11:44.015 --> 00:11:44.850 Exactly. 00:11:44.916 --> 00:12:00.058 Well, and you know, one of the one of the reasons I started Klout for good was I get a lot of the same questions from trans and queer employees that I asked myself 25 years ago. 00:12:00.125 --> 00:12:17.100 And and I in your in your work, you referenced this same thing and you stated that far too many people still believe there's no information to be found about transgendered lives and and that you continue to feel the same questions. 00:12:17.166 --> 00:12:17.666 Why? 00:12:17.732 --> 00:12:31.440 Why do we think as we've progressed, as we've as the workplace has changed as policy and as as a lot of different components of our workplaces change, Why do we think it's it's still there of an example. 00:12:31.649 --> 00:12:43.525 I was speaking somewhere recently and a queer identified, identified employee came up, came to me after and said, So do you talk about what you and your partner did in your C-suite meetings on Monday morning? 00:12:43.592 --> 00:12:46.590 Do you really say what you two did over the weekend? 00:12:46.655 --> 00:12:49.019 And so it just is a real lightbulb. 00:12:49.086 --> 00:12:59.610 It's a real aha moment for me of we're still in many ways in the same place because I remember thinking and asking some of those same questions, Why do you think that still is? 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:03.389 Well, look at the backlash we're getting right now. 00:13:03.538 --> 00:13:14.548 I mean, once once same sex marriage was made legal, the opposition has dug their heels in deeply. 00:13:14.700 --> 00:13:20.070 And they're they're making it really, really hard for a lot of people. 00:13:20.135 --> 00:13:21.210 And so I think. 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:41.720 It hasn't changed all that much because we're still suffering from the same prejudices, the same mythology and the same fears that people have when they don't know anybody who is Lgbtq+ and or they simply have written us off already. 00:13:41.785 --> 00:13:42.480 They aren't going to. 00:13:42.546 --> 00:13:44.450 They don't care about knowing us at all. 00:13:44.690 --> 00:13:49.370 So that's that's a barrier that still has to be broken down completely. 00:13:49.436 --> 00:13:59.658 And the people who have the most power in driving the the backlash that's going on now isolate themselves. 00:13:59.725 --> 00:14:05.340 They would never put themselves in a situation where they would get to know somebody they don't want to. 00:14:05.405 --> 00:14:16.210 I mean, look at the legislators who are in these sessions where they're doing hearings for these horrible bills that they just won't listen. 00:14:16.275 --> 00:14:19.700 They just say, no, thank you very much for coming in. 00:14:19.765 --> 00:14:20.658 We're done with you. 00:14:20.808 --> 00:14:22.408 We don't want to hear any more from you. 00:14:22.475 --> 00:14:24.500 I still think we can beat it back. 00:14:24.566 --> 00:14:26.840 I still think we can overcome this. 00:14:26.990 --> 00:14:36.379 But it's by being present and demonstrating who we are and demonstrating that we are not anything to be feared. 00:14:36.830 --> 00:14:42.500 We are not going to be hurting them the way they want to hurt us. 00:14:43.820 --> 00:14:45.730 We're not taking anything away from them. 00:14:45.796 --> 00:14:48.288 Yeah, and I think you bring up such a good point. 00:14:48.500 --> 00:15:02.178 With over 500 different types of bills and legislation that are very specifically over the last year or so, anti-trans, very specifically anti queer in general. 00:15:02.245 --> 00:15:03.889 It's it's pretty overwhelming. 00:15:03.956 --> 00:15:09.470 And I know in your abstract that I read Unbending The Light. 00:15:09.678 --> 00:15:27.830 You describe your work with the San Francisco Human Rights Commission, the Human Rights Campaign and the Corporate Equality Index and the World Professional Association of Transgendered Health to create critically needed transgender, inclusive health and workplace benefits. 00:15:27.895 --> 00:15:49.548 So just this pioneer and someone we can all be very thankful for, for this work of on the sort of policy side and on on the governmental side really making monumental is is a word that should be attached to it work and you know so thank you for that, first of all. 00:15:49.615 --> 00:15:56.269 And you know, I guess one question is we're talking about this, you know, not to fear us. 00:15:56.336 --> 00:16:13.580 And but it looks like from your experience really working with that outside of corporate world to make policy change that's lasting and impactful, what can employees do and what can companies do to make change within the workplace? 00:16:13.645 --> 00:16:19.038 And how did you or have you navigated the workplace side of that to advocate for change? 00:16:20.269 --> 00:16:21.500 Absolutely. 00:16:21.740 --> 00:16:51.528 Back in the early 90s, I realized that there was so little awareness of who trans people were that I decided I was going to start offering gender diversity trainings or gender diversity education, and specifically in the workplace, because trans people often had difficulty finding jobs or staying employed because of prejudice predominantly. 00:16:52.009 --> 00:17:01.158 So I started I had I had flyers that I produced that basically said this is a problem. 00:17:01.308 --> 00:17:07.970 If you think as an HR director you have never faced this, I can assure you you will face it. 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:14.538 You you may actually already have transgender employees working at your company and you just don't know it. 00:17:14.930 --> 00:17:21.769 And if you if you don't think you have some, trust me, you're going to have some. 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:26.058 And and I did quite a bit of this work. 00:17:26.125 --> 00:17:40.970 I did a program at Macy's for a series of brochures explaining what to do when you can't tell what somebody's sex is or you think that they're not who they should be. 00:17:42.470 --> 00:17:53.028 If you're a salesperson, if you're a manager and how to treat customers, It was very, very successful. 00:17:53.096 --> 00:18:03.528 And after I did that and I did it, it was it was the head office, corporate office in Cincinnati that contacted me to develop this for them. 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:20.778 And after that, in the San Francisco store, trans women who often are extremely skilled at applying makeup, you would you began to see trans women working at the cosmetic counter in Macy's in downtown San. 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:21.538 Cisco. 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:26.400 And, you know, that's that's a great thing. 00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:32.160 And whether the whether the customers knew they were transgender or not, I have no idea. 00:18:33.660 --> 00:18:48.960 And then eventually I started seeing I would walk into like a Starbucks or a Peet's coffee and a trans worker would say they would recognize me and they'd I'd order my coffee and they would say, It's on the house. 00:18:49.798 --> 00:18:54.028 And there was I thought that was so sweet because I recognized them as trans people. 00:18:54.096 --> 00:18:55.490 I'd never met them. 00:18:55.556 --> 00:18:59.848 But and I don't know how they recognized me, but they did. 00:18:59.915 --> 00:19:01.680 And I was really flattered by that. 00:19:01.746 --> 00:19:02.670 I love it. 00:19:03.630 --> 00:19:04.618 I love it. 00:19:07.108 --> 00:19:18.298 You know, one of the other things that the listeners of Klout for good, one of the things that I talk a lot about is working to be your most authentic self. 00:19:18.365 --> 00:19:25.950 As as you've talked a little bit about your journey and, you know, you even mentioned in some of your work that visibility is is important. 00:19:26.016 --> 00:19:36.088 And certainly it is, you know, if you can see it and maybe it's at least building conversations, opening the door, driving awareness and then creating solutions. 00:19:36.155 --> 00:19:52.440 But many folks in the workplace, those who are maybe thinking I'd like to be more authentically myself, a younger trans employee, a younger queer employee, or someone who's in the closet and hasn't felt comfortable being able to bring their more authentic self. 00:19:52.506 --> 00:20:02.246 What What advice would you give to folks who are trying to show up more authentically and do it safely and do it in a way that works for them? 00:20:02.313 --> 00:20:04.150 What advice would you give to folks? 00:20:04.230 --> 00:20:07.288 It's it's really about building relationships. 00:20:07.710 --> 00:20:12.058 It's the first thing you have to do in the workplace is show up for the work. 00:20:12.930 --> 00:20:36.868 You have to demonstrate that you are capable, that you're a team player, that you're competent, that you can produce, that you whatever it is that you are assigned to produce it, you can do it and you do it cheerfully and competently and with consideration for your coworkers. 00:20:36.935 --> 00:20:39.568 And you engage, you engage. 00:20:40.108 --> 00:20:44.068 And that's how you break down the barriers and don't make it about you. 00:20:44.135 --> 00:20:47.308 Don't make it about your difference. 00:20:48.269 --> 00:20:55.828 Don't always come from a place of, you know, lack or intimidation. 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:58.558 Get that you're intimidated by them. 00:20:59.548 --> 00:21:04.950 I'll always come from a place that says, I'm here, I'm here to do the job. 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:06.838 Let's work. 00:21:06.905 --> 00:21:07.950 Let's work together. 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:17.750 And that will help to break down those barriers because people know you're different. 00:21:17.816 --> 00:21:19.230 They can figure that out. 00:21:19.296 --> 00:21:21.778 They just don't know how and they don't know what that is. 00:21:22.019 --> 00:21:30.900 And then and then you you show them that you're a human being and and you identify with their issues. 00:21:31.190 --> 00:21:33.868 You know, ask them about their problems. 00:21:34.650 --> 00:21:39.150 Don't tell them about yours unless they ask. 00:21:39.868 --> 00:21:47.308 And then but make sure you're on a level playing field in that kind of a context if you possibly can. 00:21:47.375 --> 00:21:57.180 And and then, you know, you gradually you say, well, you know, they saw that they saw Ellen on TV. 00:21:57.246 --> 00:22:02.190 You know, mean when when Elon came out on TV, that was a big deal for a lot of people. 00:22:02.256 --> 00:22:09.680 And people were always in those days standing around the water cooler, which, you know, we don't have those anymore. 00:22:09.746 --> 00:22:18.180 Talking about what they watched on TV last night when Elon came out on TV, it was like, whoa, I can't imagine knowing somebody who's gay. 00:22:18.246 --> 00:22:24.838 And and you say, Oh, well, you already do really. 00:22:24.905 --> 00:22:26.640 You probably know more than you think. 00:22:27.930 --> 00:22:34.200 For instance, there's me you could say, you know, And they go, Oh, because they already like you. 00:22:34.266 --> 00:22:35.460 They already trust you. 00:22:35.940 --> 00:22:38.250 That's what breaks things down. 00:22:38.316 --> 00:22:53.618 And that's why coming out on a 1 to 1 basis, why it's why it takes so long to create this cultural change is because we have to change hearts and minds one at a time and nobody likes that anymore. 00:22:53.685 --> 00:22:58.435 They want to put something on Instagram and move on, you know? 00:22:58.502 --> 00:23:02.338 But that's not going to change the world in that sense. 00:23:02.405 --> 00:23:04.140 It's not going to hearts and minds. 00:23:05.788 --> 00:23:10.170 And Jamison, I like what you're saying about show up and do your work. 00:23:10.236 --> 00:23:12.960 You're you're hired to do that, first and foremost. 00:23:13.026 --> 00:23:14.308 I think that's really good advice. 00:23:14.375 --> 00:23:20.818 And it reminds me of when my my own coming out experience from rural Michigan and once I came out. 00:23:21.130 --> 00:23:26.759 To your point of also sort of changing hearts and minds one by one. 00:23:26.826 --> 00:23:37.509 You know, once everyone in my small community found out that I was identifying as gay, many people would say, well, that's okay. 00:23:37.576 --> 00:23:38.528 I know David. 00:23:38.596 --> 00:23:39.548 I like David. 00:23:39.615 --> 00:23:42.490 He's a good person, nice guy, whatever it was. 00:23:42.556 --> 00:23:44.798 And that's okay with me. 00:23:44.865 --> 00:23:47.950 And I think to your point, that really can translate in the workplace. 00:23:48.016 --> 00:23:51.038 It's, you know, Jamison's a great colleague, does great work. 00:23:51.105 --> 00:23:56.740 I really enjoy working with him and therefore that's okay with me, hopefully is the response. 00:23:56.806 --> 00:24:07.180 And also, you know, it may to your point, spark a conversation of sharing and understanding and, and getting to know each other better, which I think is, is really important. 00:24:07.246 --> 00:24:12.519 Um, one thing I wanted to listen as I, you know, we work together. 00:24:13.390 --> 00:24:18.700 As I had mentioned at Visa, and we had the privilege of of running our employee resource group. 00:24:18.766 --> 00:24:21.068 And I think we learned a lot of things from that experience. 00:24:21.135 --> 00:24:29.410 I know for me, on this topic of telling your story, you know, queer employees and trans employees are looking for community. 00:24:29.476 --> 00:24:36.400 As you said, maybe people don't know who is or is not, and you're looking for for community. 00:24:36.465 --> 00:24:43.900 And what what importance did community within the trans and queer community within your workplace. 00:24:43.965 --> 00:24:46.028 What what did that mean to you? 00:24:46.096 --> 00:24:49.776 Is that something that was helpful for you in the workplace? 00:24:49.843 --> 00:24:51.548 And should others sort of seek that out as well? 00:24:52.328 --> 00:25:09.220 Well, I think it's a good thing what it meant to me at Visa in particular, which was the first place I worked, that actually had an employee resource group focused on LGBT individuals. 00:25:12.390 --> 00:25:12.890 What? 00:25:12.990 --> 00:25:14.038 I didn't actually. 00:25:14.190 --> 00:25:26.640 I was told about the group and, and I was encouraged to come to the meetings and I didn't want to at first because I just I don't need that, you know, I'm just here to do my job. 00:25:26.730 --> 00:25:27.450 Exactly. 00:25:27.516 --> 00:25:29.160 And yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:25:29.818 --> 00:25:41.430 And then, oh, this is actually great because we can look at some of the issues that are going on in the workplace that are barriers to people like us. 00:25:41.496 --> 00:25:46.858 So we may have the skills to have gotten over those barriers, but others don't. 00:25:47.009 --> 00:25:52.470 And we need to make room for more people always wherever we wherever we are. 00:25:53.519 --> 00:26:18.118 And so learning to work together on issues that are community building and I had already done this in outside of the workplace a lot in the trans world because I inherited a group, a support group for trans men in 1991 when its founder passed away from complications of HIV. 00:26:19.028 --> 00:26:40.230 Um, so I, I had brought my management skills to that task actually, to encourage people to work together, to encourage people to grow community rather than just find the information they wanted and then run away. 00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:47.940 But to be there to help the next person who was going to come in with the same questions that you had. 00:26:48.210 --> 00:26:56.328 So, you know, we built a very, very large global community out of this tiny little support group in San Francisco. 00:26:56.395 --> 00:27:03.750 And so I was and that's how I got involved with this city laws and stuff. 00:27:03.816 --> 00:27:19.858 And I actually wrote the the first nondiscrimination law that for the city of San Francisco that included gender identity and expression as a protected category of human humanness, that people shouldn't be discriminated for. 00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:25.048 So discriminated against for awkward sentence. 00:27:25.115 --> 00:27:27.210 But sorry but you know what I mean. 00:27:27.450 --> 00:27:46.558 So so they're in the workplace to finally have a group of people that were actually sharing the same concerns and bringing our diverse skills from the workplace into that space was really a breath of fresh air ultimately. 00:27:47.730 --> 00:27:50.278 And it was, of course, great working with you, David. 00:27:51.509 --> 00:28:23.190 And, you know, we were able to bring in corporate sponsors, you know, bring in the executives who really had the clout to do what we needed them to do, but we had to give them the tools to exercise their clout with in ways that would be beneficial for not just us as individuals, but for a much wider swath of the workplace population. 00:28:24.868 --> 00:28:35.788 I remember the fight for same sex benefits, domestic partner benefits back in the 80s. 00:28:35.940 --> 00:28:55.858 That was a real big change in the workplace and it benefited not just Lgbtq+ people, but anyone who chose for some reason to be in a domestic partnership, but not in not import the benefits of marriage. 00:28:56.308 --> 00:28:59.160 And there were plenty of straight couples who did that. 00:28:59.490 --> 00:29:04.920 And, you know, when when people get older, there are tax benefits to not being married. 00:29:05.490 --> 00:29:22.558 So, I mean, it's so a lot of, you know, couples who get together in the in the senior center, they're they they don't want to get married necessarily, but they do want to be economically joined and domestic partnership helps them. 00:29:22.980 --> 00:29:33.088 So it's you know, the things that matter to us can matter to people outside of our social circles. 00:29:33.598 --> 00:29:47.068 And we have to find ways that to frame things, to frame arguments, to frame the concepts of equality, that let people know that they're not being something's not being taken away from them. 00:29:47.135 --> 00:29:49.828 They're not going to be negatively impacted by this. 00:29:51.509 --> 00:29:52.170 Yeah. 00:29:52.236 --> 00:29:57.838 And I think a lot of that work we did together there and that we've continued to do after Visa. 00:29:57.905 --> 00:29:58.890 You know, you're right. 00:29:58.955 --> 00:30:17.098 I think, as you said, to not fear what you don't know, but also to be a part of like you said, I remember really distinctly as you brought that up sitting and we would have those conversations with with leaders up to the CEO of Visa saying, here's why this is important. 00:30:17.165 --> 00:30:23.910 Here's what this this audience, this group of employees that you have, these are needs that they have. 00:30:23.976 --> 00:30:37.528 And, you know, and it was I remember also as you bring up domestic, you know, health care benefits or you bring up covering transition as part of health care, there were price tags that had to be discussed. 00:30:37.596 --> 00:30:44.608 And you know that in creating equity through even in some cases, the employer needing to invest more. 00:30:44.675 --> 00:30:48.660 But that's what they needed to do to support their full employee community. 00:30:48.726 --> 00:30:52.798 So it was it was really an amazing time to be able to be a part of a lot of that. 00:30:52.865 --> 00:31:02.778 And I think, as we've said, there are still things that are on the table, especially with all of this sort of anti-trans and queer legislation and policy has been happening. 00:31:02.846 --> 00:31:16.798 Well, one thing I'm interested in is, as I have gotten to know you more, which has been a really amazing privilege, is, you know, I read your book, I read your abstract. 00:31:16.865 --> 00:31:39.358 I kind of poke around and learn more about you and stemming from your own personal journey and staying on track with that and being true to yourself to helping write policy that has helped our community to writing a book that quite frankly seems like it probably was a few years earlier than everyone was ready to digest it. 00:31:39.425 --> 00:31:46.380 And now, as you're asked to come back and hey, this now book is picked up again, we'd like you to do audio and we'd like to do other things. 00:31:46.445 --> 00:31:51.118 You know, being such a trailblazer, really, I think is what this kind of alludes to is. 00:31:51.185 --> 00:32:00.690 I'm curious from you, what is your what's your legacy or what are you most proud of as you look back now? 00:32:00.756 --> 00:32:09.210 And there's lots more to come, I know you'll continue to do things that are impactful, but as you look at it right now, what are you most proud of in your journey? 00:32:10.078 --> 00:32:12.118 Oh, my gosh, Most proud. 00:32:12.660 --> 00:32:21.180 You know, a lot of it's about about encouraging people to be visible and be themselves and not be afraid. 00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:33.450 I think that's to to be an inspiration for people to not fear themselves in the world, I think is something that I'm very, very proud of. 00:32:33.516 --> 00:32:41.490 I hear from people frequently, you know, you were the first person I ever saw who was like me, and you gave me the courage. 00:32:41.556 --> 00:32:42.660 Even though we never met. 00:32:42.726 --> 00:32:46.078 You gave me the courage to move forward on my journey. 00:32:46.145 --> 00:32:51.058 And that's a that's a it's a privilege and a responsibility. 00:32:51.298 --> 00:33:03.900 And I, I am honored by the gratitude that I receive, even though I've never met people who are doing living their lives this way. 00:33:04.588 --> 00:33:24.778 I recently was at a meeting in Montreal and, and two two young men from, uh, from New Zealand came and they, they brought their copy of my book and they wanted me to sign it. 00:33:24.846 --> 00:33:27.930 And they, it brought me a little present. 00:33:27.996 --> 00:33:39.509 Actually, it was a little representation of a, of a, of a little God type figure from the indigenous people there. 00:33:39.750 --> 00:33:43.650 And you know, they were just so grateful. 00:33:43.715 --> 00:33:45.960 And, you know, I could give them a hug. 00:33:46.026 --> 00:33:50.278 And, you know, it was like the best thing that ever happened. 00:33:50.346 --> 00:33:55.348 And, you know, it's not I'm not trying to be I'm not trying to have a swelled head over this. 00:33:55.415 --> 00:34:02.098 I just I feel so privileged to be able to touch people from all over the world. 00:34:02.165 --> 00:34:11.940 And another another young man from Ireland came and said, we I run a group for trans people in Ireland and everyone has to read your book. 00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:16.050 And I'm like, Wow, I love it. 00:34:16.115 --> 00:34:16.800 Thank you. 00:34:16.865 --> 00:34:18.090 Thank you so much. 00:34:18.179 --> 00:34:20.070 You know, I love it. 00:34:20.135 --> 00:34:30.119 More hugs and, you know, more encouragement for him, you know, And it's just it's such a privilege to be able to give that to people. 00:34:30.186 --> 00:34:36.210 And and, you know, I'm just grateful that I have that ability. 00:34:38.139 --> 00:34:39.159 That's that's great. 00:34:39.226 --> 00:34:39.880 That's awesome. 00:34:39.945 --> 00:34:42.670 And one final question for you. 00:34:42.735 --> 00:34:48.940 So, you know, we're it's really as we just talked about, influencing others. 00:34:49.005 --> 00:34:57.880 And I no doubt know that people who listen to this conversation will learn more about you and your work and will feel inspired from the conversation as well. 00:34:57.945 --> 00:35:04.539 But who along your journey inspired you is where I'd like to go next. 00:35:04.606 --> 00:35:20.860 So you, if you are, as you've said, sort of thinking about using your cloud, if you're having a Klout for good dinner party and you're gonna invite 2 or 3 trans or queer icons that, you know, I think people would want to know who who's inspired you along the way. 00:35:20.925 --> 00:35:23.619 Who would you invite to that dinner party and why? 00:35:25.489 --> 00:35:34.969 Well, I have to I have to start with James Baldwin because he was a creative genius and a trailblazer in so many ways. 00:35:35.179 --> 00:35:46.429 He's just as a writer, you know, he's definitely been an inspiration to me and on very different lines. 00:35:47.179 --> 00:35:50.960 Doris Fish, do you know who Doris Fish was? 00:35:51.650 --> 00:35:52.920 I don't know. 00:35:52.985 --> 00:35:59.409 Doris Fish was an iconic drag queen in San Francisco. 00:35:59.476 --> 00:36:06.650 She made an incredible film, which I hope everyone someday will be able to see if it ever gets properly restored. 00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:09.199 Vegas in space. 00:36:09.289 --> 00:36:11.119 It's a it's hysterical. 00:36:11.510 --> 00:36:16.280 And and she was a creative genius. 00:36:16.460 --> 00:36:24.309 She was so talented and so vivacious and so artistic and creative. 00:36:24.376 --> 00:36:26.590 She was just amazing. 00:36:26.655 --> 00:36:32.420 And there's a great book about her and the rise of drag that's available now. 00:36:32.485 --> 00:36:34.639 It just came out in the last year. 00:36:35.210 --> 00:36:37.760 It's called Who Does That Bitch Thinks She Is? 00:36:40.820 --> 00:36:42.860 Doris Fish and the Rise of Drag. 00:36:42.925 --> 00:36:54.590 It's really informative about San Francisco in in the 60s, 70s and 80s and the the impact of Aids HIV. 00:36:55.400 --> 00:36:59.030 It's a brilliantly written book by Craig Seligman. 00:36:59.539 --> 00:37:04.400 Doris Fish is somebody that you would not want to miss having at your at your dinner. 00:37:05.210 --> 00:37:07.190 She was she was wild. 00:37:07.255 --> 00:37:08.000 She was wild. 00:37:08.065 --> 00:37:11.150 And I, I actually never met Doris in person. 00:37:11.215 --> 00:37:12.590 I saw her quite a bit. 00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:20.000 And I know other people who did know her well and who are still alive today. 00:37:20.300 --> 00:37:41.900 But yeah, yeah, she was she would be one and and another would be Lou Sullivan, who was the young guy who died and left me his little support group and who sort of gave me opened the door for me to, to do the global work that I've done. 00:37:42.619 --> 00:37:47.989 And I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't ended up there. 00:37:48.260 --> 00:37:52.485 But it was it wasn't like I wanted to do what he asked me to do. 00:37:52.552 --> 00:37:59.929 But I promised him a week before he died that I would I would do what he asked me to do. 00:38:00.018 --> 00:38:00.920 And. 00:38:02.420 --> 00:38:03.559 And so I did. 00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:05.480 And the rest is history. 00:38:06.380 --> 00:38:09.949 But Lou Sullivan also was a creative genius on his own. 00:38:10.016 --> 00:38:14.809 He was the first gay identified trans man. 00:38:15.260 --> 00:38:26.179 The medical establishment believed that you could not be gay and trans at the same time, that there was no such thing as a gay trans person. 00:38:27.110 --> 00:38:30.530 And we all know that to be not true. 00:38:30.596 --> 00:38:55.489 But Lou was the one who went out and had dialogues with some of the leading psychiatrists in the fields of studying gender and convincing them that sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things and everybody has them and they can be mix and match. 00:38:55.579 --> 00:39:04.909 They're not There's no direct line that says because you have a male body, you're always going to be attracted to women. 00:39:05.690 --> 00:39:20.030 And just because you had started with a female body and want to be a man and need this medical assistance to do this, that doesn't mean that you are going to be attracted to women in a men's body. 00:39:20.690 --> 00:39:23.809 Well, I want to be invited to the dinner party, that's for sure. 00:39:23.876 --> 00:39:25.429 That sounds that sounds amazing. 00:39:25.496 --> 00:39:26.210 Well, yeah. 00:39:26.275 --> 00:39:27.170 Doris will blow you away. 00:39:27.559 --> 00:39:28.400 Jamison. 00:39:29.059 --> 00:39:29.900 Yeah. 00:39:29.965 --> 00:39:30.465 Yeah. 00:39:30.532 --> 00:39:33.018 Well, Jamison, you know, I. 00:39:33.500 --> 00:39:34.250 It's been. 00:39:34.315 --> 00:39:49.518 I feel like one of the things that that is amazing about our conversation is, you know, I did it for good so that people could hear stories and understand journeys and get advice from folks who have already taken steps to become their authentic self. 00:39:49.585 --> 00:40:00.230 And, you know, as I knew you at Visa and now what I've gotten to know along the way, it's been such an honor and I'm so impressed with the more all that I continue to learn about you. 00:40:00.295 --> 00:40:04.099 So thank you very much for all you've done. 00:40:04.166 --> 00:40:17.030 You are a visible man and you are seeing for those of you that want to get a copy of Jamison's book Becoming a Visible Man, visit Jameson Green to learn more about where you can purchase and download. 00:40:17.096 --> 00:40:18.650 And there's even a discussion guide. 00:40:18.715 --> 00:40:24.349 You could have that discussion guide for your group or for your book club or for whatever you'd like to use. 00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:27.530 And to my listeners, thanks so much for joining us today. 00:40:27.596 --> 00:40:31.230 Please tune in every other week on Wednesdays for a new episode. 00:40:31.295 --> 00:40:34.139 Follow us on Social and visit Klout for good. 00:40:34.619 --> 00:40:41.768 To subscribe to your newsletter, I hope this episode gives you the motivation to use your own clout for good to make a difference. 00:40:41.835 --> 00:40:44.340 Jamieson Thank you so much for joining me today. 00:40:44.405 --> 00:40:45.659 Thank you, David. 00:40:45.750 --> 00:40:47.139 Appreciate what you're doing here. 00:40:47.206 --> 00:40:48.239 Thank you so much. 00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:51.739 We? 00:40:55.380 --> 00:40:55.690 Don't.