The opening for the VP of Sales came up and I wasn't actually particularly interested in it, but I was having a conversation with the CEO of the company one day and he thought we were having a good conversation.
When he said to me, You know, Terry, you would be great for that job, but I could never put you in that role because the sales team wouldn't respect you because you're so open about your sexual orientation.
Hello everyone, and welcome.
Klout for Good is a bi weekly podcast that showcases personal and powerful conversations with prominent Lgbtq+ executives who are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant to create a supportive community to inspire Lgbtq+ people, their employers and allies to build equity and inclusion in the workplace.
Today, I'm honored to welcome Terry Macko.
Terry is Senior vice president for marketing and communications at the World Wildlife Fund.
His responsibilities include managing the base of more than 1 million WWF members and over 8 million activists in the United States.
Terry oversees the creative expression and messaging for WWF across all media and advertising channels, ensuring WWF remains the world's most recognized and loved conservation brands.
Prior to joining WWF, Terry served in a variety of senior level marketing roles at Columbia House, VeriSign and where we met at MCI Telecommunications.
Throughout his career, he's been recognized by Advertising Age as a top marketing leader.
Terry, welcome to the show.
Hi, David.
Nice to be here.
Yeah, it's great to have you.
So let's jump right in.
I'm going to ask you right off the bat.
Um, let's just start by telling us, if you can, a little bit about how you identify when you came out and a little bit of those maybe experiences and insights and things maybe you learned along the way through that, through that period?
I have been working in the corporate world for over 35 years, and I have been an out gay male that entire time.
And so, you know, you do the math, and that was since the late 80s.
And I was thinking about this and.
And I really have always been out since I was in college and a bit even in high school with a select few people.
But in the workplace, I've been out my entire career.
But.
You know, being out at work means that you're you're always coming out because people don't necessarily know that you're gay unless they've had that opportunity to get to know you in one way or another.
And so there was never really a defining moment for me of when I came out.
It's always has been and is still a process of letting people know who you are and what you're about.
Well, and Terry, it's I know that I've read a study McKinsey put out a study that basically states what you had said and reinforce is that it says that queer employees often come out in the workplace once a week.
So I think it's it's such an interesting thing, you know, for those of us that have I also have been out since my first job.
And you know, I think that it can sometimes be this may be too dramatic of a word, but it can sometimes be exhausting.
You know, you just sort of want to be yourself.
Maybe maybe it's something that you don't want to talk about or maybe the situation isn't the right situation.
Um, I'm curious.
Through all those years of of your professional experience with a lot of really top tier well-recognized brands, have you ever found yourself and maybe again, maybe this is too harsh of a word, but have you ever found yourself hiding your identity or maybe being less open about it?
And if so, maybe.
What were some of the reasons why that happened and why you chose not to share more?
You know, I wouldn't say that I can think of examples necessarily of when I've intentionally hidden my identity more so I think of examples when I've had to be very sort of proactive about asserting my identity.
So I think of an example when I was very early in my career and I was out to lunch with three other people and we were all in our mid-twenties and a server had come by and I think was just very rushed.
And a woman who was sitting next to me said, Oh, that waiter must be gay.
And I looked at her and I said, Why?
Why is that?
And she said, Well, all gay men hate women.
And I just looked at her and I said, Well, Kathy, I don't hate you.
And there was dead silence at the table and a little awkward.
And then we went on with our lunch.
And later that afternoon, a few hours later, my colleague came to me and he said, I can't believe you said that to Kathy.
She she came up to me afterwards and said, Did I say something to offend Terry?
And he said, Well, Kathy, I think he might be gay.
And she's like, Oh, I never thought of it, but like it, you know, that that situation is still sort of burned in my mind because someone felt sort of very comfortable about saying something that was sort of disparaging, kind of odd.
And, you know, I think that situation 30 years later would be less common.
But still, I was actually surprised at the time.
And I can think of other situations and again, sort of more earlier in my career, but I've talked to even people in the past few years about this, of the ways in which gay people almost have to come out to people.
And as simple of a situation of your at work on a Monday and people say, well, how was your weekend?
What did you do?
And you have to think for a second like, Oh, oh, what do I tell them what I really did this weekend?
So for me, at a time I was commuting between Pittsburgh and DC every other weekend to see my boyfriend at the time.
And I, you know, there was a time when I just just so there were times where I didn't necessarily go into the details.
Right.
So to your question, like, is that hiding?
It was like, well, maybe I just don't really feel like telling you all the details.
But I remember there was one time someone asked me that and I was a little hesitant, and I said to him, Oh, I was going to the airport with my colleague, and he asked me how my weekend was, and I said, Oh, I traveled to Pittsburgh to see my boyfriend.
We're in a long distance relationship, and I could tell he got a little jarred and then just continued to talk and answer another question or for me.
And then we moved on.
Well, a few days later he came up to me and said, Hey, I really wanted to talk to you.
I wanted you to know how much I appreciated how open you were about telling me what you did over the weekend.
He said, I've really been wrestling with my own sexuality.
And he had been and I knew that he had been dating a woman because this was someone I would drop off at his girlfriend's house sometimes after work, and he opened up about his own identity in the struggles he was in and and then came out and was gay.
And we ended up being friends for many years.
I love it.
Well, and and to actually two follow up questions to to to that one you know, as you talk about your example over lunch and then this second example, one thing I'm curious about is have you seen the workplace change?
So maybe that incident at the restaurant versus versus one today, I know you're you're actively engaged in in DNI efforts and employee resource efforts at WWF and otherwise.
But have you seen the workplace change?
Have things gotten is it even safe to say?
Have things gotten easier?
Are they the same?
What would your assessment of how the workplace is moving along be?
Well, I do think that the workplace is dramatically different.
And so even though and I recognize that, you know, I talk about having been open for over 35 years, you know, at work, I've been very privileged to be in work environments that were filled with open minded people.
And in East Coast cities where this was sort of very common and in very large companies that are I think the larger the company is, the obviously the greater diversity there is in the sort of more advanced they are in in their policies and practices.
But I would say two things come to mind.
So, yes, I am very involved at World Wildlife Fund in our diversity, equity and inclusion programs.
I'm the executive sponsor for our LGBTQ Plus Employee resource group, which is called We're Here, and it's a great resource for anyone who identifies within that umbrella and is a group that advances issues that are important to its members as well as provides a supportive community and social spaces.
And and that just didn't exist early on in my career.
You kind of sought each other out and you knew, you know, through time you figured out who, who, who was gay, who wasn't.
But it was all sort of very informal.
And so having these more formalized structures in place and recognition, I think gives so many people what I like to think of as a more even playing field that you can be your authentic self when you come to work and you know that there's a community that supports you and surrounds you.
And it's not just that community, but it's the entire organization because the entire organization is supporting these employee resource groups.
I also think that we've come a long way in terms of making sure there is that equal playing field so that that the just benefits like health care are equally provided.
I remember back in the late 90s thinking what a wonderful environment I worked in at MCI because it was very easy to be open and out in that in that workplace.
But at the time MCI did not have health care benefits for domestic spouses and AT&T and Sprint did.
And I remember thinking, how do how is this possible?
How can this be?
And I remember thinking like wanting to sort of lead an effort on that.
And if I have a regret, it is that I didn't do that.
And so, you know, I thought, oh, someone else will, you know, that's going to change eventually.
And eventually more things changed in terms of the company being absorbed by by Verizon.
But it you know I think about that and was that like hiding or that wasn't I wasn't hiding who I was, but I was holding back.
And I think that in the workplace today, a lot less people are holding back on where they see a situation that isn't completely fair.
Well, and I love it.
I think your and your employee resource group example of, you know, not having those types of resources, you know, to your MCI example, you'd kind of have to go on your own.
You'd have to figure out who would, who would I go to.
And if you were in a position of power, that could be easier.
But I think, you know, one of the things is you told your story about telling your colleague on the way to the airport.
It also reminded me of is one of the reasons that I started Klout for Good is like you were mentioning with, you know, these conversations and being open.
So many folks come up to me after, whether it's an internal town hall meeting with the whole company or maybe speaking at an advertising or marketing event.
And you still find younger employees saying, you know, do you talk about your weekend like your example?
And I think for me, again, sort of being one of the reasons of starting Klout for good, it just really strikes me as I agree with you, that so much progress has been made.
But I then go, wait a minute, I came out 25 years ago and we're still asking that question.
Is it okay to talk about yourself on Monday?
So think conversations like this and sharing this because we also.
I know a lot of folks that identify as a part of the queer community aren't out and aren't talking about it.
And so my next question would be, and with your great experience in working with the employee resource group and otherwise, you know, what advice?
You know, I think it's you mentioned privilege, and I definitely have over the course of my career understood I get to sit behind, you know, white male privilege when it's convenient.
And I think, you know, understanding what that is and how to navigate that.
But I think that, you know, folks, when they think about being more authentic, when they think about coming out, they may not feel safe.
They may, you know, be saying, hey, I want to make sure I don't get overlooked for that promotion.
You know what what advice might you give to folks that are thinking, I'd like to come out or I'd like to be more authentic or show up more authentically or maybe even that employee who's been closeted at work and is now saying, hey, there's resources, maybe this is time.
What advice might you give folks that are sort of contemplating showing up differently?
Well.
You know, my first piece of advice would be that in any profession.
You know, make sure you're choosing the profession you want to be in that you're passionate about, that you get excited about and be the best that you can be at it.
And that doesn't matter who you are, it doesn't matter what your difference is.
And so I think that, you know, if you really are trying or if you're truly pursuing your passion, you will succeed.
Now, I do think that it's important to be your authentic self in your workplace, because if you're hiding who you are, you won't be as good as you can be.
No one can be their best if they're living in a bubble of fear.
And so it's important to have a workplace that is supportive.
And so I do think as you make decisions around where you're going to accept a job, I think, you know, you want to make sure that it's a place that you feel like you can be yourself.
And so that's just something, you know, you have to navigate.
And, you know, there are you know, unfortunately, there still are real reasons for people to be afraid.
Not everybody has a workplace where they can feel supported.
Again, to your point earlier, I mean, we're what we were discussing, it has changed dramatically.
But I'll give you one example from it was a job I was in again 30 years ago.
I pursued a role with a small startup firm for a year while I'd taken a break from MCI.
And in that that role, this small startup telecom company, I was leading their product marketing and the opening for the VP of sales came up and I wasn't actually particularly interested in it, but I was having a conversation with the CEO of the company one day and he and I was very open with him and he thought we were having like a good conversation when he said to me, You know, Terry, you would be great for that job, but I could never put you in that role because the sales team wouldn't respect you because you're so open about your sexual orientation.
And I thought, Oh, okay.
I really was so dumbfounded at the time.
I didn't know what to do about it.
The reality was I was actually contemplating my move out of that company at the same time as well, because I didn't think it was going to succeed.
So I kind of just let it go.
But again, it's one of those things that sticks in your mind.
And I thought, you know, no one should ever feel that way, right?
No one should ever be in that situation.
And unfortunately, we we do have a lot of laws on the books now for anti discrimination based on sexual orientation, based on where you are in the country.
But it's why there really should be a National Employment Non-Discrimination Act.
No one should have to sort of live with that as a reason why someone wouldn't get promoted.
So so I understand why there is a fear among some Lgbtq+ people of being open and being themselves that perhaps perhaps they won't get something that they would have otherwise if people thought they were straight.
Right.
But I think what you give up by not being out is so much worse in so much more of a handicap.
I think that for me, you know, despite that one example I cited being my true self, being open, being out has been a benefit for me.
I think it has allowed people to see me for who I am.
It's created a sense of trust because people know where I'm coming from and it's helped me to build more real relationships with people, and I don't think it's sort of ever hindered the career path that I have been on.
Well, and, you know, I think it's just your story.
Thank you for sharing of, you know, being looked over for a position.
I think those sit with people as that doesn't really happen.
That's not really true.
And I think, you know, thank you for sharing that because it's proof that it does.
I'm positive it's happening today, maybe in a more subtle way, but it is still happening.
So it is really important.
Think like you were your advice around folks thinking about showing up more authentically?
I think the other thing I know we've both been involved with this organization.
Personally and through.
Through friends of ours.
But the Human Rights Campaign today now has a tool called the Corporate Equality Index.
Not every company is a part of it, but but every company is encouraged to be a part of it.
And as we were talking about with health care benefits or whatever that might be, it does give you a really great guide as you're thinking of companies and thinking about considering companies, how they, you know, quote unquote score as part of the corporate equality index.
And it talks about what type of environment and what type of sort of equitable opportunities exist.
So those are some other tools that people can can certainly use.
And, you know, one of the things I'd be interested in, you talked about the example and the benefits and maybe not capitalizing or stepping forward, but I am positive because I watch, you know, the things that you do with the companies you've worked for and with with WWF specifically.
You know, you have been authentically out.
You have been yourself.
And you said it's certainly been a benefit for trust and relationships.
Where do you think, you know, to share an example?
Because I think sometimes people are not sure what their boundaries are or what they can do or how could they make a difference where, you know, on this podcast, I'll call it your Klout for good, but really it's, you know, being out, how has being out, how have you use that out or maybe taken an action that has benefited your organizations or benefited the employees of your organizations or partners that you work with?
Can you give us an example where using your clout has made an impact?
Sure one recent one springs to mind.
We have a practice at WWF where each Friday a different member of our senior management team takes their turn at writing a note for the entire staff.
And it can be a reflection on anything that is important to you at the time.
It could be something that's happening in the news.
It could be a recent win or result.
It really it's it's your space to use as you wish.
And so I it's my turn every couple of months and I was thinking that this past June that I really wanted to write something for Pride month but but it wasn't my turn in June.
My turn didn't come up until August.
And so I reached out to someone else who had the turn in June and was able to switch places.
And I just decided, I don't know, it was I was talking with the members of our employee resource group and we were going through the programming that we were doing for for Pride.
And someone had asked me like, Well, could you see if, you know, one of the Friday notes could mention that it's Pride month.
And, and that's what spurred me into action of thinking, I'll do better than that.
I'm going to take over the entire note and write it about pride and and and I really wasn't sure what I wanted to write.
And I thought about it and I thought, well, why pride?
Why is it why is pride so unique to our community when it's not?
Every group can embrace pride.
Every individual should embrace their own sense of pride.
But it's really because I think that Lgbtq+ people have embraced pride because it is the opposite of shame.
Right?
And shame is this horrible emotion that we're sort of taught as children to hide who we are.
Other differences aren't so easily hidden, and so they're not as as relevant or as sort of deeply embedded in identity as as much as I think it is for gay children who are taught to hide who they are.
And, you know, the whole coming out process is that shedding of of that guilt, that rejection, that pain.
And so coming out is so important as a celebration of who you are.
And so I centered my note on that and I got a little nervous, but I thought, no, this is this is good.
Like, yes, I'm not I don't hide at work, but I don't necessarily reveal everything about myself to 100% of the workforce in a single moment in time.
And so I did that and I wrote the note and I revealed some things that I hadn't it's interesting I hadn't even told my family about.
I had I had revealed that discrimination situation that I mentioned earlier.
I had talked about there were times I've been physically assaulted for being gay.
And, you know, those are just things that are deeply personal and but I think important for people to know because it's as I had said in my note, you know, Pride Month is is not all about rainbows and drag queens and sparkles and parades down the street.
Right.
It's pride is a place that we come to after years of struggle with our identity and continuing to sort of reinforce that sense of pride in oneself, even though it can be batted down, you know, time and time again in, in different and unexpected ways.
And so I, I got over 100 email responses back from people who were just so happy that I went there and that I sort of opened up that door and I didn't I guess I didn't expect that.
I didn't really I didn't really know what to expect, but it showed me that it is so important to create a workplace and an environment where people feel safe.
They feel that they can be themselves.
And if you do that, they'll absolutely do their best work.
And so, you know, isn't that what we all want?
Like we all want to succeed within whatever organization we're in.
You know, WWF were fighting against climate change and the loss of biodiversity and nature on the planet, and those aren't easy things to overcome.
That takes the entire world to come together.
And if we want our employees doing their best work, they need to know they're in an environment that will support them and support who they are, and they can be their true selves and they can be all that they can be.
That's awesome.
So the callout for Good Community includes queer people and their allies who lots of the listeners are here to, to get some tricks and tips on how maybe they can improve their workplace.
So with your experience with ERGs and lots of different companies, what advice might you give the listeners who want to make a difference?
What are some things that they might be able to do, or what are some changes you'd like to see that might they might pursue in the workplace?
Sure.
I think I think it's important to take a chance.
When we were going through our own programming for Pride Month as part of our ERG, we were talking about different programs that we could have and we had we did a talk with an author who wrote the book called Queer Ducks, which is all about sexual orientation and sexual diversity within the animal kingdom.
And it's a fascinating read.
And and what you find is that there are there's an incredible amount of diversity when it comes to the animal kingdom.
And the lesson is really that there really is no such thing as being odd or being different, that this kind of diversity of sexual orientation and same sex behavior exists in all animals and across all species.
And so this idea of of being different is, I just think a fascinating one of that being different is actually the most normal thing.
It's actually not queer at all.
And so and so it was a, it was a bit of a bent on in terms of the kind of author you might expect us to bring in.
But it produced a really rich conversation and everybody really loved it.
And so I think that, you know, taking those kinds of risks are important.
I would say that the other thing is that if you're looking to bring about change, be specific.
What's the change that you are seeking?
And because I have found that sometimes people can just have a general sense of frustration and with their workplace, but not necessarily know exactly what they need to be different.
And so one thing that we've done at in our own workplace, in our building is to create more gender neutral bathrooms.
That was very important to people.
The architecture didn't necessarily support it, but there was a way and it took a bit of time and it was an important resource to have both for our employees as well as our visitors.
And so it was something very specific that we could do that mattered to a great deal a number of people.
So I do think that when you're looking, as we talked about, there are so many changes that have advanced in the workplace that in some cases I think some people wonder like what more what more is there to do?
And I think if you can get really specific about what changes you want to see, then your leadership, your management can act on those because you're bringing real issues to the table that can be addressed.
Love it.
I think that's great.
My experience in working within the DNI teams at my company is very much the same thought as you.
You know, it's it's easy to be frustrated.
It's easy to say these things aren't working.
And I think it's surprising that when you do have suggestions that are specific, that action can be taken.
And hopefully, you know, companies will support that as you bring those forward.
So two more questions for you, Terry.
One is, um, you know, have you along the way utilized you just mentioned this book that I'll definitely include in the show notes.
Um, but do you have any tools or.
Resources, books or organizations or, you know, whatever maybe you think could be helpful.
One of the other things I've I've noticed with listeners is they really want to draw on these resources and tools to to educate themselves or to be able to take action.
Any resources you would share with listeners that you have found effective through your experience.
Um, you know, it's interesting, David.
I was going to mention the HRC Corporate Equality Index.
Oh, yeah.
Okay, good.
Because I've been paying attention to it for decades and have actually recently engaged in some discussions with folks there about how they can broaden it to include a wide range of non-profits who have not been a part of that research.
It's been more focused on the for profit community.
So I do think to the extent that resources like that can be broader for more organizations and, you know, across many spectrums, you know, they all take a lot of resources to make those things happen.
And so they've been focused on on the biggest ones for sure.
But, you know, Out in Eagle is another really great organization that we have participated in where they have an annual conference that is really inspiring for people who are able to be a part of it and to know more about how they can be leaders within their own organizations.
And then, you know, there's so many organizations that I think that you can look at that if they suit your needs, like Glad, Right, which is focused on the representation of gays in the media, which I think has been such an important issue to address over the decades, to change the perception of how Lgbtq+ people are represented.
Smile for younger individuals, flag for parents, you know, which may not necessarily be specifically focused on workplace issues, but your whole identity.
And it's important to focus on your whole identity to be your best professional self, as we've talked about.
So I think resources are out there like that.
That's awesome.
And I didn't know Corporate Equality Index didn't have a sort of nonprofit sort of focus or that they had opportunity.
That's really that's really good to know.
So last question, Terry.
When I think after folks listen to this episode and you saw proof when you wrote your June email, you inspire people for sure.
And I'm positive you've created action that you're not even aware of.
But, you know, one thing I ask everyone to kind of end the hour conversation is, you know, who's inspired Terry along the way.
So if you're, you know, imagine and I know you love to host a good dinner party.
So imagine if you're hosting a dinner party for Klout for good, what, 2 or 3 queer icons.
And they don't have to be icons.
They just can be someone who's been influential to you, who were a few of those folks that you would invite that have inspired you along the way.
So thinking about the dinner party and wanting a mix of people for fascinating and interesting conversation, you know, if we could bring him back, it would be amazing to have Harvey Milk there, right?
I mean, he was the first elected.
Out.
Gay official in the state of California and literally died for the cause.
I mean, he was assassinated and but such a pioneer.
And I think it would be so great to be able to talk with him about what that fight was like and what it was like coming out in the 60s and early 70s.
I think it would be great to have Lily Tomlin.
Um, she is because you need someone who's really funny and I think she's hysterical and, and you know, she's in her 80s now and as vibrant as ever and she's one person who I can remember her myself on Laugh-In, and I've watched her on Grace and Frankie.
So I, I feel like she has been with me my entire life since as a laughing at her comedy as a child through today and then.
I would add Gus Kenworthy.
Because you need someone, you know, you need young voices.
You need people who are, you know, as we talked about before or just, you know, who really focused on their profession and exceeding in being the best that they can be.
And he is an amazing Olympian and he so embraces his queer identity.
And he is just he is who he is and he doesn't hide it from anyone.
And I think that having that kind of diversity of of age and experience would be pretty fascinating conversation.
I love it.
And I just saw on Instagram over the weekend he bought his mama house.
I saw that.
Yes.
So he's a good son.
And and also in my living room have a one of the original campaign posters of Harvey Milk.
He's one of my definitely someone would invite to the table too.
So that's that's awesome.
I love it.
I want to be invited for sure.
Well, Terry, thank you so much for your time today.
I you know, as I alluded to folks, as we started, I was on Terry's team as one of my first jobs.
And I can attest to and now knowing him all these years later is truly a thoughtful, authentic leader.
And I really, really value your opinion and what you do.
So thank you so much for for joining me today.
Well, David, thank you for asking me.
It's been a pleasure to have this kind of conversation with you.
And I love seeing the work that you're doing and the kind of leadership across the LGBTQ spectrum that you are advancing.
So thank you.
Yeah, Thank you, Terry.
And to my listeners, thank you so much for joining us today.
Please tune in every other week on Wednesdays for a new episode of Klout for Good.
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I hope that this episode gives you the motivation to use your Klout for good to make a difference in the workplace.
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