I think you have to be as authentic as is comfortable for you.
Everyone's story and experience is individual, and what's right for me is never going to be right for someone else.
Even if you're in a place that doesn't feel wholly welcoming, I'm sure there are people who would would be more welcoming.
So I think find your people, seek them out, share as much as you're comfortable sharing.
And if it's not the place that you feel like you can be your whole self, is that the right place for you?
Hello everyone and welcome! Clout for Good is a bi weekly podcast that showcases personal and powerful conversations with prominent LGBTQ+ executives who are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant to create a supportive community to inspire LGBTQ+ people, their employers, and allies to build equity and inclusion in the workplace.
Today, I'm honored to welcome Amy Martin Zeigenfuss, who's the Chief Marketing Officer for Carnival Cruise Lines.
At Carnival, Amy is focused on positioning the brand for the future, continuing to evolve the through line experience and the marketing experience to drive business performance and brand love with customers of today and tomorrow.
Amy has a personal passion for travel and a deep appreciation for the travel industry.
Making it more accessible for travelers is a top priority.
She's committed to developing a culture of inclusivity where there's space for diverse voices and backgrounds.
She also sits on the board of the international Gay and Lesbian Travel Association.
Amy and her wife, Joanna, split their time between Washington, D.C. and Rehoboth Beach, Delaware.
So, Amy, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much, David.
It's fantastic to be here.
And I love that you're doing this.
David.
It's it's such a great thing that we need to talk more about.
I think in, in this space, especially when it comes to work, as you and I were chatting about earlier.
So, um, you know, I, I figured out that I was a lesbian, identify as a lesbian, um, in college.
And, um, that sort of changed my worldview a bit, as it does for many people when you sort of, you know, figure out who you are.
Um, and, you know, I did the coming out to family and friends over time, um, and I was lucky that I didn't have super negative experiences there.
So, um, you know, some of the usual stuff where it's, you know, a bit of a shock to people and, you know, you do feel like you're letting people down, which never feels great.
But in the end, I was pretty supported.
Um, and my first job, I worked at an agency, as you, as you mentioned.
And I didn't feel comfortable, um, being out there, I think because I was trying to prove myself, and I felt like there was enough for me to do, um, just kind of trying to figure out how to how to work for a living.
And, you know, um, even though agencies are pretty inclusive as, as far as places to work, it wasn't like I was in a buttoned up corporate environment at the time, but I just didn't feel I didn't feel good about it.
So I there were a couple people who knew they were gay, too.
Um, so I felt comfortable sharing with them, but I wasn't out more broadly.
And it, it was uncomfortable because I made great friends there, and I sort of was living this.
It felt like a double life, right?
I was not being my authentic self.
I felt like I was lying, um, because I would do the avoidance, you know, and not use the pronouns and, you know, all the things, um, that, you know, we in the community know all about.
Um, and so eventually I thought, I can't do this anymore.
I've gotta, I gotta change this.
And so I remember, um, talking to a girl friend of mine, a straight girl friend of mine, and I just thought, I'm gonna just tell her.
And so, um.
And I was worried because she had grown up very in a very religious household and from a conservative background, and I just I just thought, I don't know how this is going to go.
And, um, she couldn't have been more supportive.
I mean, she was amazing when I finally told her, um, and we joked about it and in the end, and we're still close friends to this day.
So it was a really I was so glad when I did it.
I was able to, you know, then be out at work and I thought, I'm never going to do that again.
Now, whenever I start a new job, I pull it off like a Band-Aid, tell everybody about my wife, Joanna, so that, um, no one can can be confused.
Um, and that that has that has worked for me.
But I know it.
I know how hard it is because it's it's it's never, never, never easy.
Especially when you're trying to prove yourself.
Yeah.
And, you know, and I think one of the, one of the studies I've read, uh, McKinsey study, also says that LGBTQ people often are finding themselves coming out at work every week.
So they're also to your point, maybe you're ripping sort of the initial Band-Aid off as you're entering and letting people know, but it's also something that we continually need to do.
Have you found that yourself as well?
And have there been times maybe also, you know, because that can be, I think, for some exhausting, you know, always, always finding ways to come out, always having to tell who you are.
Have you found yourself?
Have you?
You know, it sounds like maybe in your first job, but along the way, even after you've been an out employee, have you found yourself maybe not sharing as much?
And have there been reasons why that's happened?
Are you?
Yeah, I think I think, you know, the one thing that was interesting was the pandemic felt a bit like a relief, I think, for a lot of, of people from a diverse backgrounds and minorities because, you know, I heard from a lot of my, um, colleagues and girlfriends who are black, um, who have textured hair, that it was a relief not to have to talk about that all the time in the office.
Um, and have people be like, oh, you changed your hair again.
And it just was exhausting for them.
And I do think coming out over and over and over again because people assume that you're straight, right?
People assume that, you know, you must be straight.
Um, you know, that is tiring.
And in fact, I was taught this by a younger LGBTQ+ community member, you know, um, older gay guy and I who headed the employee resource group at Hilton were saying, well, you know, is it easier for you these days?
Kind of assuming that he would say yes.
And, you know, because we're like, well, you know, um, bad assumption and and he said, you know, same thing.
People still assume he's straight.
And so he still feels like he has to come out.
And even though it's a more welcoming environment maybe, than we were coming up in some respects, you know, for him it was it's exhausting.
So I do think yeah, I think there are times, especially when I'm at a conference or something, I just sort of I don't want to talk about it.
I change the subject.
I just don't feel like going there, you know?
Um, because it's tiring.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is tiring.
And I think, you know, I always have tried to say I'm willing to give the effort.
I'm willing to do this because I want to change.
I want to create change.
I want people to be comfortable and and but it is exhausting.
And I also wonder, you know, one of the things, as I have navigated my own career, I realized that going and moving up the corporate ladder, that I got to use my white privilege and my male privilege often didn't necessarily know that I was doing it.
But I found myself in this position of of understanding and realizing that as I moved up and I wonder, you know, with the intersectionality of all of us and sort of the complicated makeup of all of us identifying as a lesbian and navigating the workforce as a lesbian, you at least have gender and sexuality and probably other things.
Have you found or do you think there's any unique challenges or any unique things that have happened identifying that with that intersectionality?
I think, yeah, I think it's a great question.
I think, you know, one of the things that I didn't realize was, you know, the name of your of your podcast and your organization, that I do have clout.
I never realized that.
I didn't realize to your point that I had the privilege that comes from being a white, uh, lesbian woman.
Um, and, you know, I, I always, you know, thought about the things that were hard for me.
Um, but then I didn't realize that I actually get, you know, invited to more tables in more rooms and more conversations than others.
Um, particularly women of color, men of color, um, and and people of our community who are of color, right?
Or transgendered in particular.
So, um, so I realized, you know, that it was it was important for me to try to create space for those voices and to try to, you know, make room at the table.
And and so I really tried to become more of a sponsor.
I think I was always I think it was an ally, but I was more of a, a silent ally, you know, you know, supportive but not really doing much.
And I learned more about sponsorship and what that means.
And I that's been a really powerful journey for me because it feels like, um, while I've definitely, you know, faced my fair share of things.
Right.
Um, I feel like turning that on its head and using it as a force for good is really empowering and really feels, um, you know, just feels like the right thing to do.
And I get so much out of it.
I love it, I love it, yeah.
And I'm sure make a huge difference because of it.
And you know, one other question is maybe full of stereotypes.
Um, but it's you work in the travel industry, and I think there is an impression, at least amongst our own queer community.
You know, there's the all of the all queer people love to travel.
And there's also this impression that, you know, maybe the travel industry is more welcoming and easier to navigate.
I had an experience when I was on the board of the Gay Lesbian Straight Education Network, where I was going to meet with the the school board in San Francisco.
And I thought, well, this will be easy.
And we're in San Francisco, their school climate and their environment, it's going to be great.
And in fact, when I went in and and I actually uncovered we, we had a benchmarking study and I found found really the environment in San Francisco is not too different than a school district in Middle America.
And so I think, you know, there's this perception travel industry is accepting it's.
Exciting.
It's diverse.
Is that the case, or are there still challenges that you feel the industry is trying to navigate to really create an equitable and inclusive workplace for all, and especially its queer employees?
Yeah, I think, um, I do think it's it's both things.
Um, so I would say that I do think travel, um, attracts a more diverse set of people anyway, and especially it seems like the LGBTQ+ community, maybe we're more adventurous.
I don't know, um, uh, but it does seem to attract that.
So there is I've, I have always felt like there's a, there's a, you know, bigger percentage of us represented within it.
Um, and that has led us to be, I think, more at the forefront, especially for employees, but also for travelers.
You do have to be welcoming for all you you know, it's it's it's not it's hospitality in itself is non-discriminatory.
It's about opening your doors to everyone.
So that's definitely, I think, true.
I don't have the data to prove it, but um, but but the thing I would say on the flip side is, you know, just like most companies, um, in the world, the travel industry is no different in that it is mostly run by white, straight men.
So, yeah, um, you know, while while our front lines and our middle ranks are much more diverse, I think, um, you know, unfortunately, we still have work to be done at the top on boards, um, and in and in the C-suite for sure.
And, Amy, you made me I'm chuckling a little bit.
You've made me remember the Damron Guide, our guide to how do we navigate the travel space as a, as a queer member of the queer community to find gay friendly hotels?
So we don't have that awkward check in experience and all sorts of things.
So it's definitely, definitely come a long way.
But as you mentioned early on with, you know, in your first job, you were really focused on you.
Listen, I need to prove myself.
I want to build my career and establish myself.
I think that's such a place that many people find themselves in even after that first job.
You know, I think it may be one of the impediments to trying to be authentic is I really need to protect my career.
I want a promotion.
I want to be, you know, respected, etc.
.
What you know, a lot of folks that are listening are, you know, wanting to hear about these experiences and how folks have navigated them.
What advice would you give someone who's maybe a little newer to the workforce or maybe even closeted in the workforce?
But thinking about I might want to show up a little differently.
What?
What words of advice might you give for folks to navigate that?
I think you have to be as authentic as is comfortable for you.
Everyone's story and experience is individual, and what's right for me is never going to be right for someone else.
Um, so you definitely have to navigate that in a way that feels, you know, true to yourself.
Having said that, um, even if you're in a place that doesn't feel wholly welcoming, I'm sure there are people who would would be more welcoming.
So I think find your people, seek them out.
Um, share as much as you're comfortable sharing.
Um, and and if it's not the place that you feel like you can be your whole self, is that the right place for you?
Should you look elsewhere?
I know that's easier said than done.
So I'm not trying to oversimplify it, but I do think finding a place that will welcome you and welcome the whole you, um, life is just too short to work anywhere else, right?
So so try to find that.
Find the people who will support you.
Find out if your organization has resources, because, you know, a lot of organizations these days do have employee resource groups.
I've, I've led them, um, and been part of them.
And they are amazing.
You know, I, I get so much out of them.
I know that members do.
And they create a safe space.
Um, whether it's official or unofficial, there's usually a network.
We know how to find each other.
Um, so I would say seek that out and that will be your support whether you come out big or small.
Um.
Find that, find your people.
I that's great advice.
And I think you're right.
There's that secret slack channel in some companies or otherwise.
But seeking and I think just come a long way from maybe when we were entering, entering the workforce and there weren't official quote unquote, channels and organizations to, to be a part of.
And I think the employee resource group is such a great, great suggestion.
Um, you know, one of the things I'm interested in is you have this really impressive career, all of these brands that really, you know, have created things that all of us have experienced, you know, experiencing travel and experiencing new places and, and your involvement with diversity, equity, inclusion at those companies.
And as you mentioned, I know you have been an executive sponsor of of the employee resource groups.
What do you think?
Um, are a few things you would share about your experience where you have used, as I call it, your Klout for good, like you referenced, where you've used your outlets in a way that.
Created change or created a positive outcome for the workplace or your team or employees.
What are some examples you could share that you're proud of over your career?
Yeah, I've been lucky enough to have a couple.
Um, for sure.
Probably more than I'm not remembering.
But, um, you know, I've definitely been a sponsor for things that, um, diverse employees are really, um, passionate about and maybe wouldn't have been able to get visibility onto, um, otherwise.
For instance, um, we talked a little earlier about textured hair, um, when I was in the hotel space.
Um, you know, something that hotels don't do a good job of is providing hair care products for textured hair?
Um, so I had some, um, amazing black women on my team, um, who were really passionate about running a test to to offer those products on request.
Um, we lined up, they, they, in fact, lined up, um, you know, a test partner.
And we sold it in, and I acted as the sponsor for it.
And I was so happy to do that because, you know, it was important to them.
It's important to the customer base, you know, and I was really happy that, um, that I could help to get that forward and to see it be a success.
That was amazing.
Um, and then a little more specifically to our community, and I mentioned earlier being part of the employee resource groups and, um, one of the younger LGBTQ+ members asked, um, myself and, and a colleague of mine to host a panel, um, where we would talk about our a little bit like this panel, actually, or this conversation, a little bit about about our our journey coming up as gays, gay people in the workplace.
And we sort of were like, sure, we're happy to do that, but how is that really going to be useful?
Because, you know, we just thought, well, we don't really have much to share on this.
And, you know, the experience today is so different.
That whole thing about the assumptions.
Right.
And sure, we're obviously set, you know, set, uh, uh, set right on that.
But um, in the course of that conversation, we did share a lot.
He asked such thoughtful questions.
And at the end we opened it for questions.
And someone, um, an LGBTQ+ person from the Middle East asked a question about coming out.
He was on the cusp of coming out to his family.
Um, and he just he wanted to, you know, just get ideas and approaches.
And so, you know, we tried to give support.
I mean, obviously we didn't have the answers but give support.
And then the outpouring from the employee resource group members to him was just incredible.
And he came back to us a week later, and he had come out to his family and it went well.
And that was an incredible moment where I just I felt like, wow, if I had turned that down, if I'd said, I'm too busy or it doesn't make sense, what would have happened in his life?
I mean, he would have been fine, of course, but how amazing that I could be part of helping him with such a moment.
That is amazing.
It's.
And I think that's the power of, you know, my experience with employee resource groups.
One of the one of the reasons I wanted to start Clout for Good was, you know, your example of, you know, sometimes I think folks who are out in the workplace, we, we, we show up and say, yes, this is my partner or wife, and here's what I do.
But I think sharing our experiences like we're doing here, you know, the fact of the matter is, less than a percent of US public board seats are occupied by members of the queer community.
And so I think there's definitely this.
I'm not sure if I see it.
I'm not sure that I know what the path could be.
So I think sharing these stories is, is really, really important for sure.
And, you know, one of the things with your experience, you know, both with the employee resource groups and as an executive, what are some, you know, many of the members of the cloud for good community and listeners, they want to make a difference.
Maybe it's with their own, um, coming out journey or showing up more authentically, but what do you think some of the things are that you'd recommend companies consider?
What are some things that maybe they could be more mindful of or, you know, maybe some things you've tried and they've worked, or what are some suggestions that folks could take back and say, hey, I might might be able to try to do this in my own workplace.
Yeah.
And I think if it's if it's less formal as well, that's okay.
Right.
Like we talked about earlier, um, I do think creating those safe spaces so empowering, um, you know, LGBTQ+ executives to, to mentor or, or sponsor or, you know, create coffee chats or whatever it looks like it doesn't have to be a formal employee resource group.
I mean, that's great if if that's something that can be done.
Um, but, you know, just creating those safe spaces for people to share stories or connect or know that they're not the only ones, um, I think is is really, really powerful.
I do think mentorship, um, and creating those kinds of connections, you know, kind of if you've got new people coming in the door and, and you have a hunch that you.
Help them.
Why not?
I mean, I do think I do think it's powerful to hear other people's stories.
And that's something that everyone can do one on one, right?
It doesn't have to be in a big forum, on a panel or a podcast.
It can just be, you know, hey, this is my experience.
I know you're, you know, you're going to chart your own course, but let me share mine.
And and that can often be really powerful.
To your point, I always thought, oh, no one really wants to hear about, you know, all the things that I've done and gone through.
You know, it's old, it's old history, but it's it's actually really, really instructive for people.
It's not like they're going to do it the same way.
But so I do think those are really important things.
And then, you know, connecting.
We have such great resources in our community.
I was thinking about, um, the LGBT Chamber of Commerce is such a great resource.
Um, for instance, for smaller companies or even individuals.
Um, so there's there's lots of things out there too.
It doesn't have to just be something that you create yourself.
Yeah, I love it.
And I one of the insights that I have pulled from Employee resource Group is periodically we would survey our ERGs and find out, you know, how are things going and what do you need.
And and within the, you know, the LGBTQIA+ ERG inevitably over the last several decades working in that space, the thing that always bubbles to to the top is community.
And I think what you're referencing and being able to have those connections and that support and a safe space, just like you said.
So I think there's this impression it's, you know, the ERG is going to be fighting for whatever is the hot topic of the moment.
You know, having your pronouns on the email signature, having a gender neutral.
And in fact, they will.
But I think above that is community and the power of being able to make the connection to one another.
And, you know, you can't necessarily always find each other, as we've kind of talked about.
Well, um, well, you've talked about, um, the, uh, LGBT Chamber of Commerce, any other as you've navigated your career and you've navigated, um, being a part of this community, any other tools or resources or books or any other things that you'd recommend to to folks that are listening today that might help them in their career journey or their, um, LGBTQ journey?
Yeah, it's a good question, I think.
Um, you know, I, I am a member of HRC.
Um, that's been really helpful to me over the years.
Great resources there.
You know, it has helped.
I have been involved with helping my companies figure out some of the things we want to do for employees, like health care, for domestic partners.
Back in the day when that was that was a new thing.
Um, and I went to them for resources on how to do that.
Um, so I definitely have found them, them helpful over the years.
Um, you know, on a personal note, I really whenever I need a bit of a lift and I'm feeling a bit like, oh, this is hard work.
Um, you know, life in general.
Uh, I love Glennon Doyle's podcast.
We Can Do Hard Things.
Um, it just always gives me a boost.
Um, you know, they're always so on point and so great at humanizing things and putting their finger on the button, the things.
So I really I really enjoy that one.
Um, so those are some of the things that, that I found useful.
I love and maybe tell us a little bit about, you know, given your connection to your industry, tell us a little bit about um, IGL to and, and what they do and what their, their purpose is.
I've heard about them over the years, and to be honest, I'm not sure I know exactly what they do and how they serve the community.
Yeah.
Sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
Uh, they're fantastic organization.
Um, so they are really a membership organization for LGBTQ+ travel companies, small companies.
So think travel agencies, um, wholesalers, um, you know, certainly convention visitor bureaus are members.
But a lot of, you know, people who are planning, um, travel for tour operators, for the LGBTQ+ community, making it safe, like we were talking about earlier, especially maybe in places that are can be less welcoming.
Um, you know, but but lots of other things, too.
Gay cruises, um, you know, gay resorts, um, and all those sorts of things.
So the so I glt itself is really a resource and a membership association for those companies.
Um, and we, you know, we help, um, you know, with thought leadership, we, we host think tanks on kind of how to help markets and convention and visitors bureaus, um, and cities be more welcoming, um, to our community.
Um, and then we go all the way down to, you know, helping with resources for how they can market themselves.
Our members can market themselves better.
Or, for instance, right now we have a big focus on what can we do to support businesses that are in Florida and other states that are, you know, undergoing some some really, you know, hard times when it comes to to our community and safety and welcoming.
So, um, and we do surveys to understand, you know, what's important to travelers, um, in our community.
And that obviously helps us to then advise our members.
So it's really it's a fantastic organization.
Um, really unique.
Um, it's international.
Um, every other year we host our convention, um, outside the borders of the US this year, next week, it's in Puerto Rico.
Next year it'll be in Japan.
Um, but we we really, you know, try to make sure we're moving it around the world to, to get as much visibility as we can.
That's great.
That sounds that sounds amazing.
Well, one, Amy, one final question.
So, you know, I think listeners today will will leave and and be inspired by some of these things you've done.
And we'll, we'll seek to learn more about you and the work you've done.
And, and one of the things that I ask everyone is, you know, who's inspired you along the way, who have been, um, figures, queer icons or not.
But but you're hosting a Klout for good dinner party.
You're gonna you're gonna invite 2 or 3 icons that inspired you, um, through your journey.
Who are some of those folks that you might invite and why?
Yeah, that's a great one.
Um, I love a dinner party.
Um, I was thinking about that, and I think I was thinking about Oscar Wilde.
Um, because he was, you know, so incredibly daring for the times, right, that he lived in, um, and, you know, wrote in an authentic way for, for those times and, and, you know, got in trouble.
Um, and I think it was imprisoned for a while as well.
So.
Wow, what an incredible guy.
He would have had to be at a dinner party because he would have stories to tell.
Um, and then my first two kind of, I think when I started to realize, without knowing the name for it, that I was gay was in, um, I was I think I was in middle school and, um, and I got, I asked for, for Christmas the George Michael.
Well, the wham it was wham bam bam.
I love George Michael and Madonna.
True blue.
I'm dating myself.
But, um, those were the two albums I wanted, and I'm like, oh, my, look at that.
Um, and I just adore both of them, so I would love to have them.
Um, there and bring George back from the beyond.
Um, and then I'm going to geek myself out a little bit here and say, Eleanor of Aquitaine.
She is my historical icon.
She lived in the 12th century, um, between France and England, and was a badass woman.
Um, for those times, she went on the Crusades with her husband, the King of France.
At the time.
Women did not go on crusade back then.
Um, but she did, um, and she was Queen of France and Queen of England and ruled in her husbands and and sons dead, and did it much better, frankly, than most of them.
So she was just a force, um, at a time.
And she also, um, was responsible for, um, sort of chivalry and the idea of chivalry and, and so she had this, you know, hard and driving exterior, but she also made time for the finer things in life.
And I just think she's incredible.
And I'd love to have dinner with her.
That is awesome.
I, I, I don't know anything about her, but she's a traveler.
She's a leader.
She's a hospitality pro.
I it's perfect.
It's perfect for Amy.
And I was asked not too long ago about your coming on stage music.
And so I think you'll get a kick.
I immediately, without even skipping a beat, I said it's Freedom by George Michael.
I said immediately that love.
That's such a great song.
So I'd love to be at this dinner party for sure.
Those are all really, really great ones.
Well, Amy.
Yeah, well, Amy, thank you so much for joining me today.
Thanks for being open and honest.
And as you know, you learn through some of those experiences while at work.
Sharing these stories do make a difference.
So really appreciate you being on and and telling folks your experiences.
And to my listeners, thanks so much for joining today.
Please tune in every other week on Wednesdays for a new episode.
Follow us on social.
Visit www.CloutforGood.Com to subscribe to our newsletter.
I hope this episode gives you inspiration and motivation to use your Klout for good to make a difference.
So once again, Amy, thanks so much for joining.
Thanks so much for having me.
It was such a pleasure.