The vast majority of straight people that I've worked with, overwhelming majority of straight people I've worked with are very accepting and welcoming and not at all kind of bigoted.
Um, but we all say stupid things that may be insensitive to people, and that certainly happened to me.
And it just causes you to pause and just feel uncomfortable for a moment.
But you know what?
We also have to just measure intent with action.
Hello everyone, and welcome.
Clout for Good is a bi weekly podcast that showcases personal and powerful conversations with prominent LGBTQ+ executives who are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant to create a supportive community to inspire LGBTQ+ people, their employers, and allies to build equity and inclusion in the workplace.
Today, I'm honored to welcome Brad Jakeman.
Brad is currently senior advisor at the Boston Consulting Group, one of the world's leading management consultancies, and Brad is a co-founder and managing partner of Rethink Food, which identifies, invests in and helps scale businesses that are digitally disrupting the legacy food system to make it more equitable and sustainable.
Prior to co-founding Rethink Food, Brad spent almost ten years as president of PepsiCo's Global Beverage Group, where he led global corporate strategy, brand building, design, advertising, marketing innovation and branded content.
Brad has also held senior marketing roles at Ogilvy City, Macy's, and Activision Blizzard.
He also gives his time to other organizations, including the Humane Society, the New York LGBT Center, and a variety of for profit and nonprofit organizations.
Brad, welcome to the show.
Hey, David, it's great to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah.
Of course.
Great to have you here.
Well, let's let's jump in.
The first thing, um, that that I talk about with guests of Clout for good is tell me a little bit about how you identify, share a little bit with us, if you can, about um, maybe your coming out.
Or as we know, it's often not just one coming out story or maybe some of your experiences coming out, um, throughout your career and sort of what those were like for you.
Um, yeah.
So I identify I'm a cisgender, um, gay man, and I, uh, look, I would love to say, uh, or I'd love to have some sort of interesting story about my coming out in a professional context.
Um, but unfortunately, there wasn't one in terms of.
I think it somewhat happened organically.
Um, I never had a, uh, kind of a mic drop moment where I stood before people and announced that I was gay.
And that's largely because, um, I think while how I identify as obviously an important part of who I am, it is nowhere near my defining characteristic.
And so in a professional context, it didn't feel to me, um, and to one event, which I'm happy to talk about later, that, uh, that I really needed to make any sort of proclamation or announcement.
I didn't I was fortunate enough to work in great companies with, uh, great bosses and amazing colleagues, and I never felt there would be a fear for me expressing who I was so I didn't have to, unlike many people, have to hide my identity.
But nor did I have, um, any compelling reason to really announce it to the world.
Um.
Well, that's it's great.
I know a lot of people, you know, don't feel that way.
A lot of people have had a tough time in the workplace.
And one thing I'm interested in, you know, with your background and, and as I mentioned, you know, coming out is an ongoing experience.
And maybe to your point, isn't a mic drop moment.
But there's often times where, you know, maybe we're making decisions of what to share and what not to share.
I know that McKinsey has a report out that says, you know, LGBTQ.
Plus, people are often talking about something related to their authentic self sort of once a week in the workplace.
So it's something ongoing, but with your background, which I think is, you know, one is so impressive, but it's amazing with your, your board experience for for profit and nonprofit and the agency experiences, you've had the corporate with some of the the biggest brands in the world, how has navigating that as an out executive been?
Have there been any differences or was in fact across all of those, you know, the experience similar?
How how has navigating those or what challenges or, you know, opportunities have come up that vary across all of those experiences?
Look, I think the challenge that, uh, we unfortunately, as a business community face today with, uh, the majority of leadership teams in large companies and even small and medium sized companies, boards, certainly of companies, is a diversity issue at large.
So it's not unique to the LGBTQ community, although representation, for instance, on boards of directors and uh, CEO the CEO suite for sure is, uh, there's big gaps when it comes to LGBTQ.
But I think the broader issue is one of diversity.
And one of the things throughout my career that has always made me feel uncomfortable is when I'm in groups that are homogenous in the workplace, I find them to be groups that don't have a great proclivity to inspire new and breakthrough thinking, which is what most, uh, companies need right now because everybody has the same shared experience, the same educational background, often are of the same gender over, often are of the same sexual orientation.
And I think that is an issue for the LGBTQ community as much as it is for any underrepresented, underrepresented groups.
Um, black Americans, um, women.
Still, the fact that we call 50% of our population a minority is, uh, a terrifying idea.
Uh, but I think the issue is diversity at large, which, of course, impacts the LGBTQ community.
It's such a good point.
And, Brad, what do you think?
You know, with having senior senior roles and and running an organization?
And what do you think are some things that, you know, a lot of listeners have Clout for Good?
Are are folks who identify as part of the queer community, or maybe they're allies, but a lot of folks are looking for ways that their company can make a difference.
What are what are some things that you think companies can do to help with this, to help create a more equitable and inclusive and diverse, as you said, workplace.
Look, I think representation is an important part.
Um, and you mentioned a McKinsey study.
Um, BCG actually did a significant piece of work amongst 2000 LGBTQ employees.
Um, and actually 2000 straight employees across the U.S.
and the, uh, the numbers were quite surprising because those of us who live in certain parts of the United States and work in certain companies tend to take a lot of the acceptance of LGBT, the LGBTQ community, for granted.
But this study showed that 40% of LGBT employees are still closeted at work, and 26% are wish they they could be out.
Um, 36% of those employees have lied or covered up part of their identities in the past year.
Um, and of those who are out, 54% of them remain closeted to their clients and their customers.
So we have a long way to go.
And what I mentioned, uh, in answer to your first question, that I didn't really feel the need to proclaim my identity until, um, recently in the workforce, because it wasn't my defining characteristic, but I learned that it was important for me to do it for other people.
And what I mean by that is, uh, when I was at PepsiCo, I was the executive sponsor of, um, the LGBTQ ERG, and I just, uh, was so shocked, actually.
And it must it was probably my naivete and my privilege in having grown up in organizations that were, uh, very accepting of our community, as was PepsiCo.
But the fact that somebody who was the president of Global Beverages at PepsiCo was also gay was such an inspiration to, uh, younger people in the organization that made it, uh, I felt more compelling for me to, I guess, be more articulate, um, more present at LGBTQ events, uh, more out in the workforce beyond which I ever felt compelled to do.
And Brad, I it's I so appreciate you sharing that.
I've had so many similar experiences.
And quite frankly, as we talked, that's one of the reasons that I, I started Clout for Good was I really realized, you know, for me, you're like your example at PepsiCo.
It's, you know, I was working for an organization where we had a call center in Oklahoma City, and I went there for an all hands meeting, a training meeting, and, you know, talked as who I was.
And to your point, wasn't necessarily talking specifically about my gayness or anything like that.
But I had several employees come up to me afterwards and say, you know, it's amazing that our one of our leaders is out and talks about and is confident it really.
And one employee said, this really gives me hope that I can be myself at work.
And I'm I also, you know, years into being out in the workplace, I sort of thought about National Coming Out Day and I thought, well, I'm not sure that's important anymore.
And then I've really come to realize as you have, how important it is.
And in fact, I'm going to be launching Cloud for Good on National Coming Out Day because, you know, I see also having experience with ERGs.
You know, these organizations, they want community.
They want connection.
Your stat about board members.
You know they're not necessarily seeing it.
So you know sharing these stories is important.
I know your story will be, um, inspiring and important to folks and I your BCG study, that these stats around still being closeted or not authentically, you know, being able to come out at work.
What do you think are.
You know, what are some of the reasons you think that that still exists today?
Why do you think people, you know, you see sort of the changes in media and representation out there of queer people changing dramatically over the years?
Why do you think those numbers in my mind, are still so high in the workplace?
Well, I think that, um, so when we talk about representation, the term we often hear, the corporate term we often hear is, um, diversity and inclusion.
And I think, um, we have focused more on the first half than we have on the second half in that I think we have made some progress.
I think we need to make a lot more progress in creating diverse, um, employee bases, diverse leadership teams and diverse boards.
We've certainly when I look at, uh, where we were ten years ago, we have certainly progressed on diversity, nowhere near where we need to be.
But still we have moved.
Um, we've moved forward.
It's really the inclusion piece, I think, that we have not necessarily, um, put as much emphasis on.
I mean, that that's the old saying is diversity is being invited to the prom.
Uh, inclusion is being asked to dance.
And so I think we just need to do a lot more work around that.
And, look, I think also in the BCG study, um, it found that 75% of those who have been surveyed experienced some negative day to day kind of interactions that are relative to their identity, that could be determined or were classified as kind of microaggressions.
These are little throwaway lines, uh, insensitivity, assumptions being made, um, that cause people not to feel included, to feel like they are other.
And I think that's going to come with kind of raising awareness of it.
The vast majority of, uh, and I felt some of those microaggressions through my career as, as well.
But I even calling them microaggressions, I'm kind of hesitant to do because that kind of says there's some intent behind it.
I think a lot of it is the vast majority of straight people that I've worked with, overwhelming majority of straight people I've worked with are very accepting and welcoming and not at all kind of bigoted.
Um, but we also stupid things that may be insensitive to people and that certainly happened to me.
And it just causes you to pause and just feel uncomfortable for a moment.
But you know what?
I also look, I'm a little bit old school in this too.
I think it's also up to us as a community.
I mean, in in any professional context, you've got to have thick skin about a lot of things.
And while I'm not obviously saying that these microaggressions are good things, but we also have to just measure intent with action as well.
And, um, perhaps we could do we could educate some of our allies, um, a little more.
Not again, not that it's up to us to do all the heavy lifting to get accepted into workplaces.
I think companies can do a lot better in terms of sensitivity training, um, particularly around the LGBTQ community.
But we also just can't.
Can't a little bit.
Kind of take this on board too much.
Yeah.
Um.
And assume malicious intent.
Yeah.
And I think that's the, you know, everyone's on their own journey, right?
We need to meet people where they are.
I think that's really, really valid.
And I think you're right.
It's, you know, more education and more training and and I like that, you know, not really assuming this malicious intent right off the bat, I think is important.
And I think as folks, you know, one thing I'd love to, to understand your perspective on is, you know, you have a younger queer professional who's, you know, new to the workforce.
And often they're thinking, I want to show that, that I'm valuable, I want to get that next promotion.
Or you have, um, potentially a more closeted, maybe tenured queer employee.
But, you know, what advice do you have to, you know, maybe either of those types of employees, how might they start to show up more authentically?
What what advice do you have for folks that are thinking about I'd like to tell more about myself.
I'd like to, you know, I actually brought it's funny because after some of these conversations, I'll have out in, you know, the industry or at marketing forums, etc.
, some employees will still and queer identified employees will come up to me and say, so wow, on Monday with your in your C-suite meeting, you really talk about what you and your partner did over the weekend.
And I it's that question still comes to me and I get taken a little bit aback by it.
And I think, you know, wow, that was maybe a question I had when I came out close to 25 years ago.
And we still, you know, there's still that question of how do I show up and what how what risk do I take and what does that look like?
So what advice do you have for folks that are thinking about sharing more about themselves in the workplace?
Oh, look, I think, um, you do what makes you happy.
I mean, seriously, I as I said earlier, I was fortunate in that I didn't ever feel that there were major barriers to me kind of showing up authentically or talking about, um.
Uh, the fact that I was gay.
Um, but that's because I didn't.
As I said earlier, I didn't feel any compelling desire to do so.
I mean, I, um, but I recognize that some people might.
And I think that, um, you the if if you're really compelled, uh, to do that and you feel that it's such an important part of who you are, and I'm a big advocate of bringing your whole self to work.
Um, if if, if you really need to do that, I think you have to.
And if you have some negative blowback on that, depending on who it's from.
I mean, if it's from an if it's from co-workers and so on, have a conversation with them.
Um, if it's from your boss, that's a, that's a different issue.
Um, you may have to take that up.
Um, with HR, all of these things, by the way, scary things to do.
And so I completely represent a completely understand that my experience is different than many people's experience.
And that kind of raising your hand and going to H.R., um, to talk about this is something that's very daunting, particularly if you are younger in your career.
But look, at the end of the day, if you're if you don't do that, then unfortunately, I think, um, that isn't the company for you.
Uh, and that's a really sad reality.
But I don't know what else to say.
I'm really sensitive, David, to making sure that we, uh, don't present ourselves as victims, that everybody else has to help us, um, do what we want to do.
I think there absolutely has to be.
Infrastructure, culture, policy to help us, but we also have to move things forward ourselves.
And if we don't have the conversations that are productive and come from a very good place, um, with certainly with colleagues, um, I your boss is is a separate issue and a more daunting one, but unless we kind of raise these issues ourselves, nobody else is going to be made aware of them.
Nobody else is going to be aware of the problem.
It's not like some suddenly one day, everybody in corporate America is suddenly going to become a lot more sensitive to the issue or to issues facing minorities.
We're all on a journey to be educated about, um, different people in our workplace, in our friends circle, in our communities, and how we should interact with them.
And we won't know unless we, as members of the LGBTQ community, don't raise our hands and say, hey, what?
You kind of said that felt like weird to me.
I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but I kind of interpreted it that way, and it was just kind of weird to me.
80% of the time, you're probably going to get the response of, wow, I'm so sorry.
That was that was insensitive of me.
I didn't obviously that was not my intent and so on and so forth.
But we do have to take charge of our own destiny.
This community has for decades, unfortunately, had to have, um, an activist focus all the way back to, um, Stonewall.
So let's just continue moving that forward and educating the people around us and, um, assuming positive intent.
Um, obviously, where there isn't positive intent, that's a separate issue that needs to be dealt with in a different way.
But unless we're raising the issue, nobody's going to miraculously wake up one day and become very sensitive to how words and actions that are unintended could impact us.
I think that, you know, I think that's it's such good advice, and I think that over the years I have and you're right, I think it's very scary.
It is taking a stand to have a conversation.
But I think I feel like I've been able to, in my career, make the most progress with those one on one conversations, to your point, which is such great advice of not assuming this ill intent and just going in and saying, I'd like to talk about this.
And often people aren't aware or didn't know or and I find the same, you know, often with HR leaders, you know, let's let's raise this issue.
Let's talk about it.
What could we do?
And I find to your point, as you said, 80%, 80% of the time these things turn into something really positive.
So I think it's great advice.
Um, and, Brad, you know, if I.
Turn into a conflict, like, I don't think.
Yeah.
I don't think they need to turn into a conflict, I think.
Um, I think.
And maybe this is my generation showing where we have had to, uh, kind of fight for the rights that we as an LGBT community enjoy today.
Rights that are not certainly not cast in stone.
And as we've seen with issues like reproductive rights for women could vanish overnight.
But we have fought hard for for rights.
And so I guess probably my generation has more of that activist mentality.
But I recall kind of being at PepsiCo when I was leading the BRG and we were having a dinner with this group, and a very young person in the team said, oh my God, I'm so upset.
Um, I'm like, something really bad happened to me.
And I'm like, what?
What happened?
And, um, it was something to do with, uh, he was talking about his kids to a straight person and that he didn't know very well.
And that straight person didn't know him very well.
And the straight person assumed he had a wife and said, oh, what is your wife do or something?
And he was like, so offended by that, that my counsel to him as well, what did you say?
And he said, well, I didn't say anything.
I was just like so offended.
And I never kind of really want to talk to him again.
I'm like, well, you know what?
I don't know that that's the right course of action you could have.
Uh, that was a moment to educate, and I.
I know that person, by the way, who said that to you?
And that person has demonstrated themselves to be an ally.
They obviously didn't know you were gay.
And I'm sure if you have said something.
So I think we have to just make sure that when things like this happen, we don't spiral into like this person's terrible and sensitive and so on.
I'm sure we all say things to people that we don't know very well who are not members of whatever subsection of the community we belong to that may become insensitive or may be interpreted and be interpreted insensitively.
And so we just have to talk more, I think, and assume positive intent.
I think that's great advice.
I, you know, and a few more, um.
Questions.
Brad one.
Given so much experience that you bring to the table and and with so many different organizations and being such an active part of the community, one thing that I ask everyone who comes on the show is to share, um, some resources that listeners might find helpful, um, whether it's navigating their outlets or their workplace challenges or whatever.
Do you have any resources that you might share with folks that you think are helpful and valuable as you've maybe utilized along your journey?
Uh, no.
I as I said, um, earlier, I have been very lucky that, um, through my professional career, I haven't really bumped into this as a major stumbling block.
Um, and I consider myself particularly in light of the statistics that I gave you earlier around the BCG work.
I found myself incredibly fortunate, um, to have experienced and recognize that isn't the experience of the majority.
Um, at least if you look at the numbers.
Uh, so I haven't had to kind of tap into a lot of resources.
Um, I will tell you that, um, fellow members of our community who you work with are always great sounding boards for advice or even just to vent at.
Um, and so I think that's certainly so Employee Resource Groups in companies where they exist, for sure.
You should, um, join them and be part of those and you will find, I think, a lot of, uh, help and inspiration there.
Uh, there are other organizations you mentioned earlier.
Until recently, I was the Chairman of the Board of the LGBTQ Center here in New York.
Um, we have a lot of programs, uh, that you can tap into and resources that you can tap into.
Um, I would talk, um, candidly, uh, whenever you have an opportunity with allies in organizations, David, I remember, uh, and this isn't an example of, um, a direct example of LGBTQ support in the workplace, but it's a great analog and a great example.
I once worked with, um, this incredibly impressive woman who was my peer in a leadership team that was predominantly male with a boss that she came to me, um, at some point and says it drives me nuts being in these meetings because he's either mansplaining at me or he cuts me off for talks over me and so on and so forth, and it's super frustrating.
And so I just made it a point of whenever we were in a room, having been sensitized to that behavior, I would just make a point of jumping in and going, hey, um, let's just take a moment and let her finish her sentence, or let's just take a moment and reflect on that.
And wait, wasn't that what she just said?
And there are ways that you can act as an ally to, um, kind of underrepresented groups that are supportive to them.
And I think that for us, while I've certainly advocated that we need to do our part in saying, vocalizing to colleagues when these quote unquote microaggressions happen that, hey, this there's probably a better way that you could have said that or that made me feel kind of weird.
Um, equally, you can find allies in, uh, friends and allies in the workplace who will also help you navigate awkward situations and help educate the broader, um, colleagues base around some of these issues.
So I think if if you're in that situation, um, do what you can to help yourself where that isn't possible, then you need to have a conversation with, um, kind of people who can.
Might make a more direct impact.
Like HR.
Yeah, I love it, I love it.
That's great.
So one one final question, Brad.
I you know, folks that are listening often are listening to hear these stories and to understand maybe tips and understand experiences.
But, you know, along the way, I have to imagine, um, that folks have inspired inspired you.
So my last question question is imagine you were hosting a Klout for Good dinner party, and you are going to invite 2 or 3 queer icons to this dinner party that have inspired you.
Who are some folks from within our community, um, that have that have made an impact on you along the way?
Wow, who.
Would I invite to a dinner party that's inspired me?
Um, certainly.
Um, Secretary Buttigieg, I think he is an absolute inspiration to, um, our community.
Um, he is he has served in uniform for our country.
He has served in local politics, um, and now as secretary of transportation.
Um, he represents one of the most senior officials, uh, that is gay in the administration.
And I think that what is remarkable, not remarkable, what makes him so incredibly inspirational to me is that he is so incredibly smart and does his job so incredibly well.
He doesn't hide the his identity as a gay male, but nor does he put it front and center in every single conversation that he has.
He lives very authentically.
And um, I think he, for those reasons, is an inspiration.
Um, the other two, uh, people are actually women, which as I was thinking about this, I'm like, well, if if we as, uh, white, cisgendered gay men think we have an issue, imagine if you had the double whammy of being a part of another group in the community that, uh, faces diversity and inclusion, um, issues.
And that's women.
So the other two people would be Beth Ford, who is the CEO of Land O'Lakes.
And, um, again, Beth is just an incredible business person.
Um, so incredibly, um, so incredibly articulate.
Um, but again, uh, she also happens to be gay, uh, a mother.
Um, and so I just and again, she is not a prominent person because she happens to be a gay woman leading a large company.
She's just an incredible CEO who happens to be gay.
And I think there's a distinction there.
And the other one, um, that I wish I had have spent more time with before she passed away was Edie Windsor, who did so much for our community, was so incredibly brave in, um, advocating for our community all the way up to the Supreme Court.
And I think she would bring, um, and I had the honor of meeting her several times before she passed.
Uh, and she brings a very different lens to this, because she operated in a world that was nowhere near as accepting as it is today, with a advocating for community that had none of the rights that we enjoy today.
And, uh, I think she would be an impressive person to add to the mix.
A great mix of folks.
I want an invite, I love it.
Those are those are those are great.
You're welcome.
Anytime.
Uh, well, Brad, listen, thank you so much for coming to to the to the show today.
I really appreciate, um, your, you sharing of these experiences and your advice along the way.
And, uh, and for all the work you do for the community every day.
So thank you.
Thank you so much for joining.
Thanks, David.
It was a pleasure to be here.
Have a great rest of your week.
Yeah.
Thank you.
And and to my listeners, thanks so much for joining us today.
Tune in every other week on Wednesdays for a new episode of Clout for good.
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