Hello, everyone, and welcome. Clout for Good is a bi -weekly podcast that showcases personal and powerful conversations with prominent LGBTQ plus executives who are out in the workplace. The conversations are meant to create a supportive community to inspire LGBTQ plus people, their employers,

and allies to build equity and inclusion in the workplace. Today, I'm honored to welcome Jonathan Hart, who's the founder, the owner, and the design director at Big Mouth Creative. As the founder of Big Mouth Creative, Jonathan is passionate about the work that does good and creating a culture of respect and inclusion, working with brands that share Big Mouth's values, and making a difference in communities that could use our support.

Big Mouth is a certified LGBT business enterprise, a proud rainbow level member of the LGBT Chamber of Commerce of Illinois, and Big Mouth is the 2021 recipient and winner of the LGBT BE of the Year in Illinois. Jonathan has been bringing brands to life for more than 15 years, and his industry agnostic experience spans across healthcare, technology, building materials, CPG, and real estate.

Big Mouth helps clients serve their communities through targeted creative strategy, clear brand messaging, and thoughtful design. They follow a sound moral compass to fight for positive change and bring people joy through creative excellence. Oh my gosh, Jonathan, I love that. So Jonathan, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. It's such an honor to be here. I'm so in love with the work that you're doing on this podcast. So it's, it's truly, uh,

honor to be included in this conversation. Yeah, thank you, Jonathan. And I, when we did our little prep call a little, a little bit ago, I told you this, but just for the listeners, this is the first time we've had someone from the infamous agency side on. So I'm really excited to hear about your experiences. And as I read that, like I said, how much I liked it. I love it.

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I love this moral compass and fighting for change. And I know it's sometimes hard to have all of those things sort of aligned. So I really respect that you and the agency have been able to do that. So let's jump in. Let's start by, if you just want to share a little bit about your identity, how do you identify? And also maybe your coming out experience. And I know...

coming out professionally may not be a single one -time thing, and it may be a series of things, but if there's something you'd like to share a little bit about also, being out professionally and what that meant and maybe what that process looked like for you. Yeah, well, how much time do we have? So we'll start with identity. I am gonna say that I'm a cisgender gay man.

hat and dog dad, business owner and graphic designer. And I know that's more than you're asking for, but I was really reminded today that I would like to see us start to talk about our identities in new and exciting ways because I just had an interaction today that reminded me that the intersection of our identities is often where we find the most joy. And if we can all continue to talk about our identities in that way, I think.

you know, we'll be a little bit happier. Uh, so yeah, you're completely right. Uh, for me coming out has not, at least in the professional sense, been one sort of moment in time. And I think that's probably true for a lot of people. I know it's true for a lot of the folks that you've already talked to on this podcast. Uh, I came out personally really young or at least what some people would consider young. I came out at 14, uh, which I guess in the nineties was particularly young.

I was also very privileged to come to Chicago very early in my career and work at some really inclusive companies early on, some small agencies that kind of understood what it meant to be inclusive, and then some bigger agencies that I think continue to kind of uphold some of those values. But like many of the people that you've already talked to, you know,

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As for many gay people, we come out almost every day throughout the entirety of our lives and particularly in our professional careers. So we often learn to kind of straighten up, so to speak, in different contexts, in different business situations. We've learned to kind of put on that facade depending on who we're talking to. I also very early on...

experienced quite a few microaggressions around my LGBTI identity. And that is very much what led me to the place where I started Big Mouth Creative was really fighting to create a space where those toxic work environments were really kind of the important thing that we were trying to work against. So one of those in particular.

I know, you know, to that point of coming out every day in some sense, for many of us, those are often in ways that are unexpected. One of the early ones that I remember is asking HR, and this was before, this was like in 2010, so before the Marriage Act and all that stuff, when I was asking HR what their policies around same -sex benefits were.

and the woman laughed on the phone. And it was just one of those moments that at the time you sort of kind of push aside how you're feeling about that, but it takes a lasting toll and we don't talk about that enough. Yeah, it's a real harsh conversation to have and realize the position you're in and what that looks like. Well, one question when we talked a little earlier about being on the agency side, at least now,

I'm going to give a sort of stereotypical example. I think many people think about marketing and they say, well, marketing is so creative. I mean, it's just filled with all these creative people and agencies, especially that's where all the creation happens. And so is there anything about that experience? Is that sort of your experience?

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Oh, the agency side is a little more accepting than maybe if we're speaking in industry terms than the client side. Is there any truth to that? Or did you feel, you know, they're probably very similar and it just depends on the makeup of the team. That is a really fascinating question and one that I don't think anybody has asked me yet, which is probably funny. Um, I think the answer is a very complicated one. I think to some degree, yes.

creatives tend to naturally be a little bit more inclusive and open and diverse. At least I would like to think so. But I think also the agency world, particularly the big agency world, and I'm talking in places like Chicago and New York and the West Coast, there's a lot of sort of old guard, I guess I would say, you know, folks that have been in the industry for a long time and are coming out of sort of that Mad Men era of

how things are run and I would say that those folks do not understand what it really means to create a diverse, inclusive and equitable workspace. I am very much reminded now that you asked that question of a particular experience that I had back in my early days as a graphic designer. I was working at this small agency that...

was one of the first ones, they were very inclusive. I was pretty much out from day one and I think everybody there kind of encouraged me to be my authentic self. But we had a client that was in an industry that is not at all an inclusive industry. Traditionally a very sort of...

masculine leading into the patriarchy industry. I won't go into further detail, but we were working on a rebrand and I was the lead designer working on logos for this company. And we were on a call and it was back in the days when you're using that awful Cisco phone like before zoom calls. Exactly. And I was presenting the client had seen our work ahead of time and immediately ended this wonderful presentation I had spent days preparing for.

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And the CEO gets on and starts talking about how this work has completely missed the mark. And mind you, everybody on our team was very aligned with what we were presenting. The CEO gets on to talk about how we missed the mark because the work we did was too feminine. And I remember at the time, my creative director reaching over, hitting that mute button and saying, like, I'm standing behind you 100%. Whatever this guy is about to say, I want you to know.

you know, we're standing behind you, I don't want you to take it to heart. So I think in that moment, I kind of had one of those moments where you push your feelings aside. And afterwards, I realized, you know, what coded language that is, we could probably have a whole conversation now about the patriarchy and some of those lingering misogynistic issues, particularly in this industry. But, you know, I think that's a prime example of where...

You know, we can talk about our industry and some of the ways that we've improved inclusivity and allowed through creative expression and everything, us to bring our authentic selves. But you have to remember that we're working with clients who aren't always on that same page. And that can be really difficult as well. Yeah, it's really interesting. It's just another.

it's another layer to have to navigate, right? You have your own company, you have your colleagues, you have your managers and you have clients and those clients, you know, are coming from their own positions as well. And I love the example of the person from the agency who said, hey, we're going to stand behind this. And I think that's really, that's really important. That's really amazing. And I think I've learned through conversations with folks on Club for Good, you know, one thing that a lot of guests have said is, you know,

You're going to be surprised at how much support there is out there. So, I think that's a great example of that, of you unexpectedly, possibly that person saying, Hey, we're all, we're all on the same team here. We're going to stand behind it, which is, which is amazing. And, you know, folks that are, are listening, they may not have seen your headshot yet. They may not have not know exactly what you look like, but my next question is about hiding and.

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You know, I think you present yourself in a really positive, confident way. And my question is though, have you found yourself in positions where you've needed to hide your identity or you've chosen to hide your identity? And that can sound pretty dramatic, but are there situations where maybe it's with a client or maybe it's other, other situations where you've chosen to not sort of identify with who you are and articulate who you are.

Yeah, I think definitely with clients, you know, there was an opportunity we had in the early stages of Big Mouth where we had a real estate client. And this was like back in tea party days where we walked in and he announced sort of those feelings, sort of those political leanings.

like at the start of the meeting and so I kind of knew immediately I needed to.

sort of present myself in a very specific way. I walked out of that meeting knowing we were not doing that work, which is something very important for Big Mouth, something I've worked really hard to try and achieve. But I think you kind of mentioned in my headshot, some folks might see I have colorful hair. I lean very strongly into my creative expression. And that was a...

very cognitive decision very early on in Big Mouth. We started in 2018. So we had a couple of years before the pandemic. But I really, I knew very strongly that I wanted as a leader, as an entrepreneur, as a business owner to demonstrate to others how I wanted to see things work. And so presenting myself as my authentic self.

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in all the forms of creative expression that could take from coloring my hair to what I wear to, you know, I often walk into meetings with very elaborate nail polish and things like that, you know, that are part of my creative expression. And I want to model that for others and showcase that this is what a business leader can look like, that you don't have to walk into a meeting and present yourself in a way that's not true to yourself. And...

If you walk into those meetings and a client or an opportunity reacts in a way that is negative or whatever, you can walk away from that. I know that that is a very privileged position to be in right now, but I've also learned, particularly in the past couple of years, that I need to use that privilege for good. And if I can do that, if I can be that example now, that's going to pave the way for the next person who doesn't have.

that privilege in one way or another. This makes me have a huge smile. This is exactly why I started Club for Good. That's exactly what you have just articulated. So I, that's, it's amazing. So thank you, Jonathan. I think that's so important. And I think you're right. You know, I, it can be a privilege. I just got a stat.

uh, that came across my desk in the last few weeks and I posted it on Club for Good Social. It was from a survey that Glassdoor had done saying that 49 % of employees who identify as LGBTQ, fear that they're going to hinder their career by being their authentic self. So you're right. There's an enormous amount of fear. And by the way, in certain situations, real

Consequences sometimes those are not real but sometimes they really are you know people are coming at this from so many different places and you know Another thing of respect is you know coming out at 14 years old and you've clearly personally Had conviction you personally understood you personally knew and were really you know clearly and in whatever way there were some signals to you to say I need to do this for myself and I

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You know, so my next question, I often ask folks because, you know, you and I are now showing up and making decisions of what we do and when, and not everyone listening has that privilege or isn't there yet. And I think the question is, you know, given your experience, what advice might you give to, let's say it's someone who's new to the workforce and maybe they haven't come out at all.

in their professional life and maybe they're not fully out personally, or maybe it's a tenured employee that just hasn't ever felt quite comfortable. What advice would you give about authenticity and potentially even being out in the workplace, given all the experience you've had and, and, you know, both professionally and personally? Yeah, I have a very multi -layered answer to that question. Uh, because if it's not clear, I like it.

to approach things, understanding not just my own lived experience, but imagining what others' lived experience might be and trying to kind of moderate how I speak about it in that sense. You know, I would really love to say, you know, for somebody particular kind of starting out their career, look at the companies who are supporting, you know, our community. We've got wonderful things like the HRC who are ranking companies based on how inclusive they are.

you know, and say, you know, go work for them only sort of thing. But I know that's a privileged position. Not everybody has that capability. You know, there are limitations where you live, what opportunities are in front of you, what your background is, where you come from. Instead, I would say seek out support. I think one of the things I learned very early on is that for every person struggling,

with an aspect of their identity, with an aspect of being their authentic self, with an aspect of being vulnerable. There's at least two people out there who've had a similar experience or the same experience. And they at least hopefully want to make sure that somebody doesn't go through those same struggles that they went through. You know, I work really hard to make sure that the next generation gets better at it than...

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We did because that's the only way we're going to see progress. I would also say do the work to really understand who your authentic self is. I think sometimes we navigate this life just sort of doing what comes naturally without taking a moment to reflect upon that. So, you know, work really hard to understand what you value the most and go after that with all of your heart. That's certainly what I did with Big Mouth.

You know, not everybody is going to agree with you at first and probably not everybody is going to understand that journey you're on. But along the way you will meet some people or you might be surprised by people around you, their willingness and interest in lifting you up and then sort of pay that forward. And for anybody who knows me really well, I'm a

big fan of Brene Brown. So I would say it's worth it to be vulnerable. Obviously that comes with a caveat that sometimes being vulnerable can be dangerous. So, you know, take that with a grain of salt. But I think understanding your values and understanding who your authentic self is requires you to be a little bit vulnerable. And if you shy away from that, you won't get there. I love it, Jonathan. I, you know, it reminds me of what you just said. I,

You mentioned Brene Brown. I also really respect Elizabeth Gilbert, the author of Eat, Pray, Love and many other books. But she held a creativity workshop and you went for the weekend and did some writing and there was a lot about vulnerability and authenticity and she was sharing some thoughts and this has stuck with me from that workshop years and years and years ago.

which was, she sort of looked at the crowd and said, stop saying you haven't thought about it. Stop saying it. Think about it. And I think your advice is to really think, take some time. And whether it's a Brene Brown or Elizabeth Gilbert or whoever, or you're on your own with a notepad, I think it is a really, really important exercise too.

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try to take stock of your values and take stock of your interests and be able to articulate those, you know, maybe not in a PowerPoint, but you certainly can if you want. But I think taking the time, and I think that was her specific example, this was sort of a gender -focused conversation of women saying, I haven't thought about it. And she's saying, well, you're not gonna get anywhere if you don't think about it. I think it's really important to take that time. So I appreciate that advice for sure. So.

How do you listen, I, the passion you have for your company, your employees, your alignment with other brands to do work for them, but also even partnering with other organizations, the things that I've already gotten to learn from you, you're certainly using your cloud for good, but maybe.

Are there some examples that you would give where, and by clout for good, I mean, you're out and you're confident and you're, you're, you're making it happen. As you've said, giving back, et cetera. Are there any examples of using your clout for good that you'd feel comfortable sharing with, with listeners?

Yeah, it's probably going to be entirely in the context of my company because that has been my focus for such a long time. I think now having this conversation, I'm having a little bit of a realization that I probably had this moment a long time ago of realizing that if I didn't create it, who would, you know, sort of thing. And so that drove so much of, uh,

how we've set up Big Mouth. So, you know, I think my answer would be everything that I'm building into Big Mouth, everything I'm trying to do as a leader right now in creating, nurturing, and enforcing to some degree safe and brave spaces. Now that Big Mouth is kind of maturing as an agency, the next thing on the horizon for us is kind of taking the things that we have opinions about, the things that...

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We've started to build experience in the things that we've found success in doing, because all of these ideas, you know, I didn't come into this with an MBA with experience starting a company or anything like that. So a lot of the things that we're figuring out, and I'm lucky to have a very experienced team too. So I rely on them a lot, but the things that we're doing are kind of trial by error. Like us, we know these things that we value in the note. We know what we want to create and we're kind of trialing things and seeing what sticks.

and trying to build processes and systems around that. So all of these things that we're doing now and learning from, we're trying to take to the world and kind of use to change the world. So an example of that, somebody early on in the LGBT Chamber of Commerce made this comment that I loved, and it's probably a cliche. People have probably heard it elsewhere, but when I heard it at the time, it was revolutionary to me. That was that,

In the diverse supplier landscape, you have to kind of avoid thinking that we're all fighting for the same slice of pie and instead think about it from the perspective of we're just making the pie bigger. I like to think that over here at Big Mouth, we're baking more pies, we're making the pies even bigger, we're kind of expanding the...

options of pies that we've got to take that metaphor to the end level. So, you know, we're trying to look at, for example, you know, we're a smaller agency with a very limited set of capabilities, but we're partnering with other diverse suppliers, not just in the LGBT space, but also women and minority and disabled and veteran -owned businesses to try and...

you know, partner together to uplift the work that they're doing to help us meet client needs. It helps us go after bigger clients. It helps them get more experience. It's a really sort of fantastic thing that we're working really hard on. I also, my team has pushed me really hard in the last year in particular to understand this perspective, that I have these opinions that I have, it's really important for me.

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to take some of that limelight, to speak up for it and to stand up for the next person, the next company that is trying to achieve similar things. I think that your team is right because today there's going to be some folks that are listening to this episode who are saying, you know, maybe I could do this. Maybe this is something I should pursue. Maybe I should call Jonathan. Maybe Jonathan's agencies and agencies. I think it's, I think they gave you good advice. It's great to share this for sure. Um, what,

And one question, because you've worked, you 2018 agencies and small businesses have a tough time making it through, especially making it through a pandemic. Clearly lots of things have been going the right way. Is there, as you've worked to create this equitable place and you've worked to align clients with your agency values,

Has there been, is there a hiccup you can share? Where was something that you said, oh, geez, this didn't work out great. Was there, along the way, I have to assume there was something that happened or maybe some things, but is there something you could share about learning along the way to continue to build the agency? Oh, man, yeah. I mean, every day there's a challenge. It's not all sunshine and daisies. You know,

Obviously, the pandemic was a tremendous challenge, particularly 2020. Actually, when I started Big Mouth, I had a business partner. She left at the tail end of 2019. And so I was kind of starting out fresh in 2020, like going out and networking and really trying to kind of build up not entirely new, but a little bit fresh.

what we were trying to achieve and then the pandemic hit. I remember I had this big networking event that I was really excited about. It was the day that things closed down here in Chicago and that was incredibly tough. But I also got another piece of advice around that same time from somebody who works in video production. And he said, you know, when...

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You're worried about work. Don't take, don't take that time to sit around and worry about work. The call will come. Take that time to refresh, to look inward, to, you know, rejuvenate your creative energy, to really, you know, spend the time working on you and your company and that kind of stuff, because the call will come. And it takes a lot of work to have that faith that there are others out there in the world who believe in what you're doing.

But I think, you know, to the point I made earlier, if you put your heart into that, if you really lean into your values and hold strong to that, it will come. It may not come right when you expect it to. It may come a day too late, but it will come. So you just have to be ready to weather those storms. There's a Dolly Parton quote that I used to give during speeches.

because I was trying to do the speaker circuit in the early pandemic. And that Dolly Parton quote is, storms make trees take deeper roots. And, you know, that is something I tried to hold on to very strongly. challenges just make you stronger if you know how to channel that energy in the right way. You know, as a small business, you know, we definitely have cash flow.

issues, every small business is going to have those when you are, you know, worried about where the next check is going to come from. And if you're going to be able to pay your team, we had a really big scare at the end of last year, we've gotten through it. And I think we're even stronger for it. I, well, and I think that's such, you know, resilience, you know, having resilience and being able to weather the storm, as you say. And I think I love the advice also about.

for putting the work into the business. You know, I transitioned from corporate America to consulting, and I now know a lot of other fractional professionals. And I think that the one common theme as you've just alluded to is this, what's next? And that seems to be the common level of anxiety coming from that. And to your point,

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but everybody gets the next gig. And I love the idea of, we'll put a little time into, you know, maybe it's cleaning up your website, maybe it's spending some time networking, maybe it's time doing some marketing or whatever you might want to do to put some energy into it. And then I also, one of the things Jonathan and I've realized is, and also enjoy that you might have a few minutes of free time. We don't get many of those. Right, it becomes, ebbs and flows a little differently in these types of situations. So.

So a couple last questions. The first one is, you know, you have clearly been engaged with a lot of organizations and have taken this very seriously, the certification of your business. And, but for, for those guests out there today that are listening, what, you know, again, as I, in my intro say, this can be folks that identify as LGBT, it could be allies.

It could just be companies that are listening in and saying, you know, trying to understand the LGBT workspace. What resources have you come along in your career that you'd like to share that folks might consider as they're evaluating LGBT workplace issues and equality? Yeah.

That's a great question too. And one I hope I can bring kind of a unique perspective to it's probably a hyper specific one because I've been so ingrained in being a business leader for the past couple of years. I would say first and foremost, seek out particularly your local LGBT Chamber of Commerce. If you don't have one, your national one. One of the things I love the most about our community and you spoke

about resilience, and I think that's a piece of it too, is that we're so intersectional, right? You don't walk into an LGBT Chamber of Commerce event and see sort of this homogenous idea of what people think we look like. The LGBT community is made up of, you know, men and women, minority groups, of disabled groups, veterans, of all of these different...

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and really exciting groups of people. It's so incredibly complex and diverse and inclusive. So you're gonna find an amazing intersection of your own identities there. And because it's the context of business, it's a really great place to kind of explore what that means to you. And I know here in Illinois, we've got a great chapter that has mentor programs, they have accelerator programs.

You know, if you're a young professional, they've got programs for you. They've got networking, they've got growth opportunities. The national one also has very similar opportunities. I'd say that's a really great place to start. And I'm a very strong supporter of everything that they do. If that's not. I love it. And Jonathan, we didn't rehearse this at all, but earlier this week, I just started to look into club for club for club for good too.

the National Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce to get certified. You actually, in preparing to talk to you and looking at your business and hearing this from you, I actually just submitted the initial application to do that because I think, same thing, I think Clout for Good should be out there and should be a part of it and who knows where Clout for Good will go and so I think I'm taking your advice. I've already started, I'll keep you posted. The last question is,

A fun one. So this is, and everyone, I love everyone's responses to this over the past several episodes. So, you know, I know that these insights you've already shared today, they're gonna help folks. And so now we can have a little bit of fun. And I'd like to know by way of maybe hosting a clout for good dinner party, you know, who's inspired Jonathan? And...

Who would he invite to that dinner party? Are there a few queer icons that have inspired you or you just look up to or enjoy? Who might you invite and why? Yeah, so when I first saw that this question was on your list, I panicked because I can't pick three. Our community is made up of such amazing trailblazers and people who are doing such amazing things. You know,

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I made a joke to someone earlier that the LGBT history book that unfortunately doesn't exist yet but should get thicker and thicker every single day. So there was one person immediately that I thought of and that is if you're a fan of RuPaul's Drag Race, Jinkx Monsoon. Love it. We even named one of our cats after her.

It's obvious that I value people that bring their whole selves into everything that they do. And I think Jing brings so much of herself and her experience and everything to her comedy. That sort of amalgamation of all of the emotions of your lived experience into one night of like stand up is so incredibly brave to me. And it's so inspiring to me. And I also thought, you know, if we were actually sitting down and having dinner together,

there would be endless stories. We would not be wanting for something to talk about. Exactly, exactly. The other two, it took me a little while to decide on who specifically I wanted to say. And I realized I wanted to speak a little bit about sort of the younger generation and the upcoming generation, because every time I personally panic about...

where we are today with all of the insanity that's going on in the world, all the things we have to worry about and be upset about and be fearful about. I just have to look at the younger generation and get excited because they're approaching everything in the ways that I think that we should be. So the first is someone, they're both Instagram influencers, but the first is Skylar Baylor.

Pink Manta Ray on Instagram, he's an amazing trans activist and former athlete who took all of his lived experience and turned it into teachable moments. I can't imagine what it's like to put yourself on display like that, to stand up and be so like raw vulnerable about everything that has kind of led you to where you are in life, to face, you know,

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unfortunately, the angry mob right now. But he approaches it all with such kindness and confidence that it really inspires me day in and day out. And then the other one is someone that I personally admire. And he started a podcast recently that I love. And that's Matt Bernstein, XIV on Instagram. He's incredibly creative, which is where the personal

interest comes in. He also understands brand, and particularly personal brand, in a way that often makes me question my own knowledge of brand. And then he takes that knowledge and creates content that is such a fascinating intersection of ideas. And he's somehow found a really amazing balance between this idea of let me tell you the whole truth, but also let's have a conversation about this.

uh, and in the world that we unfortunately live in today where he feels so much more palpable because it's been brought into the light, you know, out of the shadows of, you know, maybe the nineties and early aughts. Um, I think that's a really amazing way to combat misinformation and untruths. Uh, so. I mean, the conversations are so important and to your point, so hard to have now it's, it's so black and white. It's so one side versus the other.

And I love it. I want to, I want to be invited. I think this dinner party question is going to create a huge, huge dinner party someday. So those are really, really, really good. And I think I just read yesterday. Jinkx monsoon is going to come to Carnegie hall. I think I just read, which is pretty, pretty amazing. That's awesome. Well, it's your birthday. Oh, nice. So I've already started planning that you've got to come to New York and go see that's, that's, that's awesome. Well,

Well, Jonathan, this is, this has been great. I loved our conversation. I really respect so many things that I've learned and continue to learn about you of either your decision to come out early, your decision to go and start an agency that can do the things you think are important and making those happen and weathering the storm as we talked about to get through the pandemic and otherwise. So thank you so much for sharing everything. It's really, really inspirational. It's great to connect with you for sure. Yeah.

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Thank you for giving me just another platform to be vulnerable in. Absolutely. And I think for guests out there, Big Mouth Creative is an agency open for work. So you can also check Jonathan and his team out if you're in need of that. So to my listeners, thanks so much for joining today. Please tune in every other week on Wednesdays for a new episode of Cloud for Good. Follow us on social and visit us at cloudforgood .com to subscribe to our newsletter.

I hope this episode motivates you to use your cloud for good to make a difference in your workplace. Thanks for joining. Thank you.