WEBVTT 00:00:03.642 --> 00:00:05.703 Hello everyone and welcome to Clout for Good. 00:00:05.703 --> 00:00:14.862 It's a bi -weekly podcast that showcases personal and powerful conversations with prominent LGBTQ plus executives who are out in the workplace. 00:00:14.862 --> 00:00:25.842 The conversations are meant to create a supportive community and inspire LGBTQ plus people, their employers and allies to build equity and inclusion in the workplace. 00:00:26.062 --> 00:00:36.975 Today, I'd like to welcome Rob Smith, who's the chief executive officer and founder of Fluid, which includes the Fluid Project, Get Fluid and the Fluid Foundation. 00:00:36.975 --> 00:00:45.534 Rob's created a brand combining his profession, which is retail, along with his passion for a commitment for social justice. 00:00:45.534 --> 00:01:02.582 Rob began a long career in retail spanning over 30 years, orchestrating multi-billion dollar businesses through merchandising, e -commerce, marketing, product development, and supply chain management with brands like Macy's, Victoria's Secret, Levi's, and Nike. 00:01:02.618 --> 00:01:10.159 Rob leads the CSR committee as a member of the board of directors for Steve Madden and is an executive in residence with Wonderkind. 00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:14.379 Rob lives in New York city with his husband and his dog, Jackson. 00:01:14.379 --> 00:01:18.034 Rob, thanks so much for your time today and welcome to the show. 00:01:18.286 --> 00:01:20.790 Thank you David for having me, I appreciate it. 00:01:20.790 --> 00:01:22.570 it's great to have you here. 00:01:22.570 --> 00:01:25.531 So I'm excited today to talk. 00:01:25.531 --> 00:01:47.290 I think that your experience being on sort of more traditional corporate side of the business within the retail space, as I mentioned, those companies that you've, you've worked for, and then also starting a business that's directly in the D E and I LGBTQ plus space, really driving for authenticity, which is what. 00:01:47.290 --> 00:01:50.290 Cloud for Good is attempting to do as well. 00:01:50.290 --> 00:01:52.650 So I'm anxious to hear from you. 00:01:52.710 --> 00:02:00.271 So the first question I have, I ask everyone the same question is, let's just start talking about one. 00:02:00.271 --> 00:02:06.021 Let us know how you identify and talk about your professional coming out. 00:02:06.021 --> 00:02:09.850 And I know we often have more than one coming out experience. 00:02:09.850 --> 00:02:11.950 We may have come out a lot of times. 00:02:11.950 --> 00:02:15.643 So any of those examples or experiences, but tell us a little bit about. 00:02:15.643 --> 00:02:19.026 coming out in the workplace for you and what that meant for you. 00:02:19.469 --> 00:02:23.840 or I'll unpack what I, if I can remember all your, the things you said. 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:26.909 First of all, how I identify, I use he, they pronouns. 00:02:27.210 --> 00:02:33.030 I identify as a cisgendered, whitish, gayish man. 00:02:33.030 --> 00:02:37.229 I say ish because there's a spectrum, you know, for lots of us. 00:02:37.409 --> 00:02:43.949 And yeah, I use he, they, I use, I most, I he, him, we go by he, him, but also they, them. 00:02:43.949 --> 00:02:47.900 I am an advocate for if you don't know someone's pronouns, just use they, them. 00:02:47.900 --> 00:02:49.358 It's very natural. 00:02:49.358 --> 00:02:52.057 Um, whereas David, I don't know, I haven't seen them for awhile. 00:02:52.057 --> 00:02:54.307 Um, and, but like, yeah. 00:02:54.307 --> 00:03:06.557 And also, um, I'm part indigenous and in the journey that I took in creating fluid, I found out about two spirit indigenous peoples, which is the third gender. 00:03:06.557 --> 00:03:18.925 And they were the most revered in their communities and, and usually are almost often became shamans because they were, they had this balance of both masculine and feminine energy. 00:03:18.925 --> 00:03:33.765 And I think about where I am today in my life through process of growing up is embracing my feminine side and my masculine side and living both truthfully and creating my authentic self in that process. 00:03:33.806 --> 00:03:35.665 So that's how I identify. 00:03:35.665 --> 00:03:37.066 Thanks. 00:03:37.066 --> 00:03:41.586 And then the next question is my coming out story. 00:03:42.126 --> 00:03:44.126 Yeah, that was a journey. 00:03:44.126 --> 00:03:48.105 I, of course, knew I was queer from a very young age. 00:03:48.105 --> 00:03:48.526 I... 00:03:48.526 --> 00:03:53.406 worked really hard to suppress anything that was perceived as queer. 00:03:53.406 --> 00:04:04.966 So it was my younger self who was artistic and creative, loved theater and dolls and hang with my sister and my brothers and we're very much into sports and then wasn't my gig. 00:04:04.966 --> 00:04:17.985 And then going from junior high into high school, I reinvented myself to someone that I thought society and my family, my faith and educators would see as more accepting. 00:04:17.985 --> 00:04:22.314 So I, played sports, I presented more masculine, dressed more masculine. 00:04:22.314 --> 00:04:23.494 And the world is great. 00:04:23.494 --> 00:04:28.434 I had so many opportunities and I took that person into the professional space. 00:04:28.653 --> 00:04:34.973 And then I realized like around the age of 23 or 22, I wasn't really my authentic self. 00:04:34.973 --> 00:04:40.454 And I came out to my colleagues and my family and I was received so well. 00:04:40.454 --> 00:04:42.754 I was received with so much love. 00:04:42.934 --> 00:04:55.589 But one of the things I like to remind myself and other people that when I came out and 1989 was a different time when you came out, it was usually followed with, and by the way, I'm HIV positive. 00:04:55.709 --> 00:05:09.350 And so coming out to your family, your colleagues was that fear of not just the world was going to be harder for you and your career was going to be more challenging, but you also might be facing a death sentence at the same time. 00:05:09.350 --> 00:05:14.449 So there was a lot bundled in the coming out process at that time. 00:05:14.798 --> 00:05:18.937 But I was received with love and acceptance from my family, from my colleagues. 00:05:18.937 --> 00:05:32.418 They laughed, they said, walk out of the closet, I came screaming out of the closet, I changed the way I dressed, I was, it was Miami Beach, I was working at Berdines at the time, and I was received with so much love and acceptance. 00:05:32.418 --> 00:05:43.894 And then I like really shifted from, even my presentation, I refused to wear a suit anymore, I would only wear a vest, I had more makeup, I pierced my ears. 00:05:43.894 --> 00:05:44.985 I love it. 00:05:44.985 --> 00:05:51.526 just came out with guns ablaze and received with so much. 00:05:51.526 --> 00:05:54.766 And I remember even being interviewed by May Company. 00:05:54.766 --> 00:05:58.625 They would try to take me because I was very successful. 00:05:58.625 --> 00:06:06.446 And I would always walk in with a red blazer and a Versace tie and just like this outrageous guy in the Harvard club. 00:06:06.526 --> 00:06:08.596 And I just felt like, is this the guy you really want? 00:06:08.596 --> 00:06:10.105 Because this is who you're getting. 00:06:10.286 --> 00:06:12.045 And it's... 00:06:12.045 --> 00:06:12.495 Yeah. 00:06:12.495 --> 00:06:18.136 So I just coming out as my authentic self and I figured I didn't want to work anywhere where I couldn't be myself. 00:06:18.136 --> 00:06:21.766 And that was, and I kind of wanted to almost put it in people's faces. 00:06:21.766 --> 00:06:23.266 Like this is who you're getting. 00:06:23.266 --> 00:06:27.305 So I wouldn't waste my time or their time going someplace that I wouldn't be embraced. 00:06:27.305 --> 00:06:31.125 And I do think that when you're your authentic self at work, you're much more productive. 00:06:31.125 --> 00:06:32.346 You're more successful. 00:06:32.346 --> 00:06:35.225 You're not thinking about what secrets you're hiding or not telling. 00:06:35.225 --> 00:06:38.725 And you're just able to show up 120%. 00:06:38.810 --> 00:06:46.571 I love and Rob, you know, sometimes I think there are some stereotypes about industries, you know, retail travel. 00:06:46.571 --> 00:06:50.110 It's, you know, those are very, you know, LGBTQ friendly spaces. 00:06:50.110 --> 00:06:55.110 Did you, do you think that's part of as you were in retail at the time when you were coming out? 00:06:55.110 --> 00:06:59.507 Do you think the industry had anything to do with it or do you, what are your thoughts on that? 00:06:59.629 --> 00:07:04.509 Well, I mean, people think about fashion and retail as being super queer accepting. 00:07:04.509 --> 00:07:11.410 The only role model I had was the head of the, not the fashion office, but the visual department. 00:07:11.410 --> 00:07:14.930 So the visual area was very queer friendly. 00:07:14.930 --> 00:07:18.470 The merchant team was, you know, a lot of white straight Jewish guys. 00:07:18.470 --> 00:07:26.050 And that was it with like a few women and women were really working through the organization, especially at Berdine's. 00:07:26.050 --> 00:07:29.485 But I was received across the board with love and acceptance. 00:07:29.485 --> 00:07:35.865 I think partially because I was so damn good at my job that they kind of had to like address it. 00:07:35.865 --> 00:07:41.185 But yeah, I mean, I still am close to the leaders at Bredine's at the time. 00:07:41.185 --> 00:07:47.425 And just the love and acceptance, I can't even tell you how much it meant to be able to be that person. 00:07:47.425 --> 00:07:49.096 And a lot of people don't have that. 00:07:49.096 --> 00:07:58.105 I do think the retail industry probably compared to like finance or, you know, consumer goods or something like that is a little different. 00:07:58.105 --> 00:07:59.021 But I... 00:07:59.021 --> 00:07:59.512 Yeah. 00:07:59.512 --> 00:08:06.394 I mean, it was for in large part, I was paving the way at that time and in the late eighties to be openly gay. 00:08:06.406 --> 00:08:15.216 and I think you've touched on something that that prior guests on Club for Good have mentioned, and that is everyone's advice is you got to do your job. 00:08:15.216 --> 00:08:22.747 Number one, first and foremost, before you before you figure out who you're going to show up as and how and what you're going to fight for and advocate for. 00:08:22.747 --> 00:08:24.096 Number one, do your job. 00:08:24.096 --> 00:08:25.107 Check that box. 00:08:25.107 --> 00:08:26.416 Make sure that you're delivering. 00:08:26.416 --> 00:08:28.156 Make sure you understand what that looks like. 00:08:28.156 --> 00:08:30.367 So I think that definitely resonates. 00:08:30.367 --> 00:08:30.906 And. 00:08:30.906 --> 00:08:34.486 I myself came out in 1995. 00:08:34.746 --> 00:08:40.606 I know we're both from Michigan, sort of Midwest backgrounds and did the same thing all through college. 00:08:40.606 --> 00:08:44.006 It was, this was this persona I'm going to pursue. 00:08:44.006 --> 00:08:48.746 It's this sort of straight persona and then, then figured it out myself. 00:08:48.746 --> 00:09:00.346 And I think you touched on something that I've often thought about as well, which is back then the very first thing often out of the mouth of someone you just told you were gay was. 00:09:00.346 --> 00:09:01.366 Are you okay? 00:09:01.366 --> 00:09:02.807 Are you going to be okay? 00:09:02.807 --> 00:09:04.086 You know, are you sick? 00:09:04.086 --> 00:09:05.037 What's going to happen? 00:09:05.037 --> 00:09:08.206 And I think that definitely has changed, but it was real. 00:09:08.206 --> 00:09:14.486 It was a very sort of scary thing to sort of navigate all of it, you know, with your family and with your friends. 00:09:14.486 --> 00:09:18.907 I also had a very accepting experience, you know, as well. 00:09:18.907 --> 00:09:30.202 But what do you think, you know, I know I'd like to hear a little more about, I think it's a great opportunity for folks that listen to Cloud for Good to hear a little bit about Fluid. 00:09:30.202 --> 00:09:32.018 Tell us about what that is. 00:09:32.018 --> 00:09:36.398 well, before I do that, can I just say, and then that will lead into fluid. 00:09:36.398 --> 00:10:15.687 I think I have drawn a strong correlation between coming out as a gay man in the late 80s, early 90s as coming out as trans today, that there is a stigma, a fear, a misunderstanding, that there's a high rate of suicide, you know, and part of the reason my fight, is so deep and grounded in, I guess, purpose is because I understand and have some empathy and understanding for what the trans community is going through today because of what we went through at the time we went through it. 00:10:15.687 --> 00:10:16.868 And it's very similar. 00:10:16.868 --> 00:10:24.258 And I'm not sure many gay men or women see that same similarity, but I see you now to your head that you see it as well. 00:10:24.258 --> 00:10:25.027 That they're, yeah. 00:10:25.027 --> 00:10:25.427 sense. 00:10:25.427 --> 00:10:26.517 Absolutely. 00:10:26.669 --> 00:10:42.749 And interesting enough, statistically, looking at I looked at Gallup and as morally acceptable in the year 2000, the Americans saw gay and lesbian people, Americans 40 % is morally acceptable. 00:10:42.749 --> 00:10:45.129 And today it's around 90%. 00:10:45.129 --> 00:10:48.610 But the trans community is at 40 % today morally acceptable. 00:10:48.610 --> 00:10:54.778 And I think about the work and that has a generation to come to achieve. 00:10:54.778 --> 00:10:55.457 Great. 00:10:55.457 --> 00:11:09.518 we are, if we continue with progress, that that's the fight that we're fighting right now is that, and also interesting enough, for the first time ever, there was a decline in gay men and gay women being morally acceptable. 00:11:09.518 --> 00:11:21.998 So there is something to be concerned about that there is, it's not all, you know, rosy good that there is, if we're not diligent, that this could turn back. 00:11:21.998 --> 00:11:26.278 like it has in the past, you know, in other ways with other communities. 00:11:26.957 --> 00:11:27.706 Yeah. 00:11:27.706 --> 00:11:42.626 know, sort of anti -LGBTQ legislation with the political environment now, it's more than ever feels a bit like, you know, the times we're talking about, whether it's eighties or nineties of, you know, we need to rally, we need to come together. 00:11:42.626 --> 00:11:50.145 We really need to be focused because there's a lot at risk as we see things of overturning Roe versus Wade and otherwise, there's a lot happening. 00:11:50.145 --> 00:11:50.936 body autonomy. 00:11:50.936 --> 00:12:07.785 I mean, it goes back to sodomy, you know, pretty soon if it's, you know, a woman's body, it comes down to who we can have relationships with that there'll be a extremist governing of our bodies by a group of people. 00:12:07.785 --> 00:12:09.745 It's just something to consider. 00:12:09.745 --> 00:12:12.955 Yeah, diligent and not to get comfortable too comfortable. 00:12:12.955 --> 00:12:13.855 That's right. 00:12:13.855 --> 00:12:27.715 Well, and I'm, I, I'd be interested to hear, um, well, as I mentioned earlier, fluid and you know, you were working for these global retail brands, you're having a successful career. 00:12:27.715 --> 00:12:37.565 Tell us about the transition from retail to fluid or, and it may not have been that, that, that sort of clean cut of a transition. 00:12:37.565 --> 00:12:38.325 It may have been fluid. 00:12:38.325 --> 00:12:40.844 Um, tell us a little bit about it. 00:12:40.844 --> 00:12:41.913 It was super clean. 00:12:41.913 --> 00:12:45.274 It was like, I can tell you everything that happened on the journey. 00:12:45.274 --> 00:12:52.114 So I remember just thinking that I was living two lives that one during the day, it was my professional life. 00:12:52.114 --> 00:13:05.389 And after work, I was working with nonprofits, was deeply involved with Hetrick Barton, which is the LGBTQ plus afterschool program in New York, the first ever of its kind in the country or around the world. 00:13:05.389 --> 00:13:06.889 along with other nonprofits. 00:13:06.889 --> 00:13:09.470 So I felt like I was doing two things separately. 00:13:10.309 --> 00:13:16.570 And along this journey, it was always, the separation kind of bothered me. 00:13:16.570 --> 00:13:26.970 And then I went to my first Burning Man for folks who don't know Burning Man is this like, some people think it's like, it's all about music and it is about art and music. 00:13:26.970 --> 00:13:29.350 But it's really about radical inclusion. 00:13:29.350 --> 00:13:31.610 It's about radical acceptance. 00:13:31.830 --> 00:13:42.830 And this also, in a week long event that, that, that 75,000 people come into this space and they really quickly adapt to this social code. 00:13:42.929 --> 00:13:47.330 And, and the social code is acceptance and love and, and self -expression. 00:13:47.330 --> 00:13:54.759 And one of the funny things was by day two, that a lot of straight guys were running into our RV and saying, can I borrow a pair of tights? 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:55.779 Can you paint my nails? 00:13:55.779 --> 00:13:57.529 Can I wear some, some eye makeup? 00:13:57.529 --> 00:13:59.885 Can I wear your tutu today? 00:13:59.885 --> 00:14:03.995 And I was like, wow, like so they were so liberated and free. 00:14:03.995 --> 00:14:12.765 And I was really struck by that freedom of sexuality, expression, all of it, just because it was a safe place. 00:14:12.765 --> 00:14:15.785 And then, and then they had to go back to like the real world. 00:14:15.785 --> 00:14:23.166 And there was actually like therapy groups and for folks who worked at wall street, how they adapt back to this like space. 00:14:23.166 --> 00:14:28.265 Um, and I didn't know what it meant, but I knew I wanted to do something different with my life. 00:14:28.265 --> 00:14:29.933 And so I quit my job. 00:14:29.933 --> 00:14:32.533 And there's a saying, don't quit your job after your first burning man. 00:14:32.533 --> 00:14:33.573 I quit my job. 00:14:33.573 --> 00:14:40.573 I gave five months notice and I put on a backpack and I decided that the answer was somewhere in the world. 00:14:40.573 --> 00:14:43.398 And I traveled for six months around the world. 00:14:45.261 --> 00:14:49.121 a lot of time in India, Nepal, Tibet. 00:14:49.361 --> 00:14:51.292 And I was in Central America and South America. 00:14:51.292 --> 00:14:55.162 In South America, I did a plant -based journey work in the Amazon. 00:14:55.162 --> 00:15:02.392 And I remember on April 14th, 2017, I wrote down, consider opening a gender-free non -binary shopping environment. 00:15:02.392 --> 00:15:04.422 I wrote fluid in quotation marks. 00:15:04.422 --> 00:15:07.422 And I opened the world's first gender-free store 10 months later. 00:15:07.422 --> 00:15:09.001 It was just like that. 00:15:09.001 --> 00:15:09.894 Yeah. 00:15:10.014 --> 00:15:10.904 And tell us about it. 00:15:10.904 --> 00:15:11.735 Tell us about fluid. 00:15:11.735 --> 00:15:15.443 Tell us about what you guys do and where you're headed and some things maybe you've learned. 00:15:15.443 --> 00:15:16.398 Tell us a little bit about. 00:15:16.398 --> 00:15:16.957 Sure. 00:15:16.957 --> 00:15:20.857 So the mission of Fluid is we challenge boundaries with humanity. 00:15:20.857 --> 00:15:26.457 So we just say, we say, because something has been one way, doesn't mean there's not a better way. 00:15:26.457 --> 00:15:33.638 And we try to find a better way for more people to be their authentic selves in this planet, in this society. 00:15:33.638 --> 00:15:44.697 And so we created the Fluid Project, which is a gender free fashion brand, which is grounded in community activism and education. 00:15:44.697 --> 00:16:16.625 And from that, Idea was the world's first gender -free store the store closed two years later, but the commitment to education community and activism continues in ways And so there's the fluid project fashion so last year fluid showed up in about 8 ,000 retail stores with categories from sense and apparel and accessories and lots of different categories just launched an intimacy collection, which is really cool and Then we launched Get Fluid, which is gender expansive training. 00:16:16.625 --> 00:16:20.796 So in the store, one of the social codes is we're all students, we're all teachers. 00:16:20.796 --> 00:16:22.745 And I was a student for two years. 00:16:22.745 --> 00:16:28.306 And then I thought, how do I teach corporations about what's happening with younger people? 00:16:28.306 --> 00:16:31.005 Mostly younger people, not exclusively younger people. 00:16:31.005 --> 00:16:39.645 And so with training, how we train strategic advising training about 40 companies a year we work with. 00:16:40.025 --> 00:16:43.446 And then focusing on community. 00:16:43.789 --> 00:16:53.139 Two years ago, I launched the Fluid Foundation and that's really about working with corporations to allocate money to grassroots organizations. 00:16:53.139 --> 00:16:56.460 So right now the big three get much of the money. 00:16:56.460 --> 00:17:00.429 You know, think about Trevor Project, HRC and GLAD. 00:17:00.429 --> 00:17:10.369 But the small organizations, which are doing a lot of great work, are getting no money because they don't know how to write grants, they don't have access to people who have money. 00:17:10.470 --> 00:17:10.925 So... 00:17:10.925 --> 00:17:14.385 We have raised a million dollars in two years and we gift money. 00:17:14.385 --> 00:17:15.365 We don't grant money. 00:17:15.365 --> 00:17:17.786 We gift it to organizations. 00:17:17.786 --> 00:17:22.715 And I think we're making a real difference by doing that and moving just, and we do it on trust. 00:17:22.715 --> 00:17:24.465 We just give money and say, we trust you. 00:17:24.465 --> 00:17:26.125 And it's a beautiful thing to do. 00:17:26.125 --> 00:17:30.566 And then we also help corporations volunteer with these organizations across the country. 00:17:30.566 --> 00:17:32.549 So a lot of good work done there. 00:17:32.634 --> 00:17:34.255 Oh my gosh, that's amazing. 00:17:34.394 --> 00:17:41.904 What do you think is, you know, one of the things about Cloud for Good is your outness as an individual can allow you to make good. 00:17:41.904 --> 00:17:44.315 You know, you can really make an influence when you're authentic. 00:17:44.315 --> 00:17:47.414 What do you, sort of two questions. 00:17:47.414 --> 00:17:55.015 The first one, what are you most proud of in, with an impact from the Fluid Project? 00:17:55.015 --> 00:18:00.818 What are you most proud of over these years of getting that up and running and sort of evolving and expanding it? 00:18:01.902 --> 00:18:18.602 Um, I'm most proud of the inclusive space that we've created, the voices that we're amplifying, the, the, the de-stigmatization of what beauty is of what self, of what, who you can be. 00:18:18.602 --> 00:18:30.317 So we've created a space of fluid, regardless of your gender, your orientation, your race, your body size, ethnicity, ability, uh, faith. 00:18:30.317 --> 00:18:31.758 that there's a place for you to fluid. 00:18:31.758 --> 00:18:35.178 That is a welcoming place for all people. 00:18:35.178 --> 00:18:45.577 And we really try to create a community of like -minded people who are emboldened to go out to make change for good. 00:18:45.577 --> 00:18:47.317 And we use our platform. 00:18:47.317 --> 00:18:54.327 I use my platform to open up doors and then to bring the team in to do the good work that they do. 00:18:54.327 --> 00:18:56.708 So my team calls me the Trojan horse. 00:18:56.708 --> 00:19:00.471 They push me in because of how I look and who I am. 00:19:00.590 --> 00:19:03.609 love it. 00:19:03.609 --> 00:19:23.630 I just feel like every day I wake up and I'm not kidding when I say this, that I'm so grateful for the life I have, the every, every decision I've made that's led me up to this point, every experience that I've had that has led me up to this point, that every single day when I look at my calendar, I go, wow, I get to do good work. 00:19:23.630 --> 00:19:26.799 I get to travel to corporations and speak to senior leadership. 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:35.846 I get to, you know, be a keynote speaker at conferences, I get to advocate on this space of inclusion. 00:19:36.246 --> 00:19:43.185 And that includes not exclusively queer people, but also the intersection of all these other identities. 00:19:43.465 --> 00:19:54.541 And ultimately, my goal is to break apart societal constructs and ideas around what it is to be male or female, what it is to be gay or straight, to just like... 00:19:54.541 --> 00:20:01.602 break it apart and say a gay man is not this way, that there's other ways to be gay, just like there is different ways to be a straight man. 00:20:01.602 --> 00:20:12.461 And once we break that apart, we allow men to find more of their feminine attributes and same thing with women too. 00:20:12.461 --> 00:20:21.221 So just about breaking apart this outdated colonial idea of what it is to be male or female and any other identity. 00:20:21.221 --> 00:20:21.375 Yeah. 00:20:21.375 --> 00:20:22.154 Yeah. 00:20:22.154 --> 00:20:28.654 Well, and Rob, congratulations and thank you to you and your team for sure. 00:20:28.654 --> 00:20:37.015 And, you know, one of the things that we talk about on Cloud for Good is a lot of folks that listen are, you know, they're new to the workforce. 00:20:37.015 --> 00:20:41.095 They're, they're navigating sort of figuring out what this is going to look like for them. 00:20:41.095 --> 00:20:42.694 How do I show up? 00:20:42.694 --> 00:20:59.355 And, you know, as you describe fluid and you describe this, free, inclusive, accepting world, you know, a lot of employees out there, as you well know, certainly, as you're on your visits to companies and doing training, I'm sure you're running into this. 00:20:59.355 --> 00:21:04.625 What advice do you have for folks as they're navigating this? 00:21:04.625 --> 00:21:10.994 Because environments in the corporate world are not always accepting or aren't always sort of ready. 00:21:11.575 --> 00:21:20.148 So what advice do you have for folks that are thinking about coming out or being more authentic, or maybe even it's an ally who's thinking, I'd like to help out. 00:21:20.148 --> 00:21:24.115 I'd like to create a safer space for people in our work environment. 00:21:26.125 --> 00:21:28.885 It's a great question and there's no one right answer. 00:21:28.885 --> 00:21:30.546 There's lots of different answers. 00:21:30.546 --> 00:21:36.605 I would say to first of all, first of all, be comfortable with yourself. 00:21:36.605 --> 00:21:42.306 You starts there, your validation because someone may not accept you, but you're deep inside. 00:21:42.306 --> 00:21:57.029 You know who you are and it's right who you are and to find people in the company who you can trust and talk to because not everybody you can trust and talk to, you know, Your stat even shows almost half of queer people hide their identities at work. 00:21:57.029 --> 00:22:06.109 And you know, what happens when you people hide their identity and some of them I think are just our understanding that who can I trust and not trust? 00:22:06.109 --> 00:22:10.309 You know, that there's a there's there's this like, but sometimes we're wrong. 00:22:10.309 --> 00:22:11.450 Sometimes we're right. 00:22:11.450 --> 00:22:18.150 But we know that whether or not any time of any type of phobia is overt or not, it could be very subtle. 00:22:18.150 --> 00:22:20.210 Could be just that you don't get that promotion. 00:22:20.210 --> 00:22:21.837 You don't get this opportunity. 00:22:21.837 --> 00:22:23.528 but to find mentors to help guide you. 00:22:23.528 --> 00:22:36.448 And I think that allies can really step in too, and to be an ally to a young queer person, and somebody who's gay, somebody who's trans, somebody who's, especially the intersection. 00:22:36.448 --> 00:22:43.577 Once you get to the intersection of being queer and a person of color, there's lots of challenges navigating that. 00:22:43.577 --> 00:22:49.230 So I just say, lean in and help people out who are young on their career and on their journey. 00:22:49.230 --> 00:22:53.509 And on your journey yourself, find people who you can trust and help you navigate the process. 00:22:53.509 --> 00:23:01.880 And then once you're inside, maybe you join the employee resource group, and then you start to work out what does education look like inside the company? 00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:04.839 How do you educate people, you know, throughout the company? 00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:09.859 I think that's one of the things we do is help employee resource groups bring in full representation. 00:23:09.859 --> 00:23:13.710 Cause sometimes employee resource groups are just people who look like you and I. 00:23:13.710 --> 00:23:17.307 There are white gay men, white gay women who are in their forties and fifties. 00:23:17.307 --> 00:23:17.710 Right. 00:23:17.710 --> 00:23:18.779 full representation? 00:23:18.779 --> 00:23:26.089 And if you can't do it yourself in your company, start to think about hiring and then hire people from the outside to come in and to speak and educate. 00:23:27.450 --> 00:23:29.039 And know that your voice matters. 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:37.369 Like you can go in and say, I'd like to know to the CEO, like I looked at our board of directors and there's no queer representation on our board. 00:23:37.369 --> 00:23:38.769 Like, why is that? 00:23:38.769 --> 00:23:44.750 I mean, I think it's okay to ask these questions, you know, and to have that confidence that, you know, you can make the change. 00:23:44.750 --> 00:23:47.931 Once you're in a position of influence, you can do it. 00:23:47.931 --> 00:23:48.540 That's right. 00:23:48.540 --> 00:23:56.730 Well, and I think those themes continue to be reinforced, I think, through these conversations of, you know, show up, do your job. 00:23:56.730 --> 00:24:04.211 And I think also sort of, as others have said, sort of seek your people, you know, seek folks you can trust, seek folks, seek smoke, you know, and create that. 00:24:04.211 --> 00:24:05.340 And it is there. 00:24:05.340 --> 00:24:10.971 And then I love your advice of, and go ask for it, go have a conversation. 00:24:10.971 --> 00:24:12.701 There's absolutely no harm in that. 00:24:12.701 --> 00:24:13.711 And it may be scary. 00:24:13.711 --> 00:24:18.159 And certainly you need to, you know, ensure your you're secure and you're okay. 00:24:18.159 --> 00:24:22.999 There's no sort of danger, of course, but it's okay to have those conversations. 00:24:22.999 --> 00:24:24.787 Go and have them. 00:24:24.930 --> 00:24:51.917 have found that if you are fearless, you know, and sometimes I think that the person who's got, maybe it's a man who's got a wife and three kids going through school may not be fearless because he can't afford to like, you know, I think, and sometimes as queer people, maybe we don't have a traditional family or relate, you know, sometimes we have the security of two incomes, no kid that... 00:24:51.917 --> 00:24:57.048 We can be fearless and your fearlessness will be appreciated by leadership. 00:24:57.048 --> 00:25:03.728 They'll say, wow, listen to this person who's speaking the truth and whether I want to hear it or not, they're fearless enough to come in. 00:25:03.728 --> 00:25:19.587 And I think it's that gamble has worked for me my entire life because I have had really solid relationships with leaders because of my truth, because of one, I'm really good at my job to your point earlier, but also I'm saying what other people won't say. 00:25:19.587 --> 00:25:20.238 And maybe. 00:25:20.238 --> 00:25:22.618 begins the process of them thinking differently. 00:25:22.618 --> 00:25:25.239 Well, and taking the time to say those things. 00:25:25.239 --> 00:25:35.959 And I think, you know, my experience, Rob is often more often than not, the conversation you have is enlightening to the other person. 00:25:35.959 --> 00:25:42.419 So I think often we think there's a, you know, a negative or cruel intention, if you will. 00:25:42.419 --> 00:25:47.558 And often it is lack of education, lack of exposure, lack of knowledge. 00:25:47.558 --> 00:25:52.499 And so having the courage to have that conversation I have found results in. 00:25:52.730 --> 00:26:00.490 a deeper, stronger relationship with that individual, an exchange of knowledge and experiences that helps you move things forward. 00:26:00.490 --> 00:26:04.681 I think there's just a real fear of what could happen. 00:26:04.681 --> 00:26:06.810 And I think more often than not, it's positive. 00:26:06.810 --> 00:26:09.471 I think so you have to, you do have to be willing to take that risk. 00:26:09.471 --> 00:26:10.155 That's for sure. 00:26:10.155 --> 00:26:21.326 And the risk in, you know, I have found that every time I'm speaking to someone in power, someone in influence that they're a human too, that maybe they haven't thought about something. 00:26:21.326 --> 00:26:30.986 And, but you also speak to them as a human, you know, I, everyone I know, whether they're my boss or somebody who works with me, I know their spouse's name or their partner's name or their pet's name. 00:26:30.986 --> 00:26:31.925 I know their kids names. 00:26:31.925 --> 00:26:34.066 I know about their lives. 00:26:34.066 --> 00:26:34.733 So you're. 00:26:34.733 --> 00:26:39.084 you develop a personal relationship with someone and then you can start to have these conversations. 00:26:39.084 --> 00:26:47.515 So it's not like, you know, out of the, out of like, but you, you treat them like a human being and they'll respond with you as a human being as well. 00:26:47.515 --> 00:26:48.154 That's right. 00:26:48.154 --> 00:27:11.894 And I think these, the conversations with executives and folks in a position of power kind of leads me to another question around, you know, you are working with corporations, you've been a part of them as an employee and you know, through the years, what advice would you now with all of this, this knowledge you have, what advice would you give to corporations? 00:27:11.894 --> 00:27:18.886 So for folks, that are listening to Club for Good now that are part of their DENI program, they're in HR, they're executives. 00:27:18.886 --> 00:27:20.586 What advice would you give companies? 00:27:20.586 --> 00:27:33.836 Where do they start to, or what are maybe some of the key things they should focus on to create more inclusive spaces, to create an environment for LGBTQ people to thrive? 00:27:33.836 --> 00:27:37.479 What advice would you give us if they're starting this journey? 00:27:38.317 --> 00:27:50.178 Yeah, I would say to start, create a formal process, an employee resource, ARG, to create a formalized organization where there's a corporate sponsorship, there's some structure. 00:27:50.178 --> 00:27:55.917 You know, it's not just about representation, but it's also about inside, but it's also for the consumer too. 00:27:55.917 --> 00:28:00.657 How are you ensuring that the consumer is having a good experience if they identify as queer? 00:28:00.657 --> 00:28:08.013 And to work with other resource groups to focus on the intersectionality of the groups as well. 00:28:08.013 --> 00:28:17.834 And so it's important to have a formalized process where you can come with strategies and ideas, have a sponsor and get in front of leadership and make cases. 00:28:17.834 --> 00:28:20.074 And then you're also becoming an advisory board. 00:28:20.074 --> 00:28:22.993 But also I would say, understand your shortcomings. 00:28:22.993 --> 00:28:28.903 If you don't have anyone who's trans in your team, how do you bring that voice? 00:28:28.903 --> 00:28:34.134 Do you educate yourself or do you bring an outside person in to speak about that? 00:28:34.193 --> 00:28:34.829 And. 00:28:34.829 --> 00:28:36.279 It's just really good for business. 00:28:36.279 --> 00:28:53.230 And the other thing I would say to any leader right now, who's hearing about a backlash in DP &I about a fear of being, you know, somebody who's a, who was a evolved, woken, you know, quotes company that this is still the right thing to do for business. 00:28:53.230 --> 00:29:04.102 That companies who are inclusive, who will recruit better talent, will retain better talent and will offer a customer experience that is. 00:29:04.269 --> 00:29:06.750 It is business additive. 00:29:06.750 --> 00:29:10.079 It's not just about checking off a do the right box. 00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:12.711 It's about doing more business in a healthy way. 00:29:12.711 --> 00:29:13.351 Yeah. 00:29:13.351 --> 00:29:18.611 Well, and it's, I think to your point, it's that checkbox has been checked. 00:29:18.611 --> 00:29:20.351 Is DE &I good for business? 00:29:20.351 --> 00:29:21.131 Yes. 00:29:21.131 --> 00:29:29.201 Is allowing your employees, all of them to show up who they are and to be able to contribute authentically, does that help and grow business? 00:29:29.201 --> 00:29:29.881 Check. 00:29:29.881 --> 00:29:32.090 I mean, there's so that that's proven. 00:29:32.090 --> 00:29:38.611 And I think it's, but to your point, universities throwing out admission criteria and all these things happening. 00:29:38.611 --> 00:29:40.467 Um, put a challenge to it. 00:29:40.467 --> 00:29:41.727 That's, that's for sure. 00:29:41.727 --> 00:29:42.758 And it's funny. 00:29:42.758 --> 00:29:47.637 Somebody said, why don't white straight guys have an employee resource group? 00:29:47.637 --> 00:29:55.678 And somebody said, cause you have for the last hundred years have had the really the most exclusive employee resource group. 00:29:55.678 --> 00:29:58.857 And so now it's time for other communities to step in. 00:29:58.857 --> 00:30:10.382 But I'll tell you a great story, you know, as a, as a straight passing, a gay man, and as somebody who was in a leadership position at Macy's when we formed employee resource groups. 00:30:10.382 --> 00:30:17.781 One of the things that I did when they were asking for executive sponsors, I chose women of color because there were no women of color. 00:30:17.781 --> 00:30:26.942 Although I was the only queer person that I could have obviously led the LGBTQ ERG, but I chose women of color. 00:30:26.942 --> 00:30:37.710 And in the process, I grew a lot and they had an advocate because the highest turnover was men of black men and black women were the highest turnover in the company. 00:30:37.710 --> 00:30:45.500 And after 18 months of sitting through these meetings, they said, Rob, they closed the door and they said, can we tell you, we trust you. 00:30:45.500 --> 00:30:48.150 Can you, we tell you what racism is like in this company? 00:30:48.150 --> 00:30:53.630 And it was so subtle and the nuances were so small, but it was so painful. 00:30:53.630 --> 00:30:56.970 And so we began the process of addressing that. 00:30:56.970 --> 00:31:03.809 And I just think it's like something that as I was not the person that would have been naturally selected. 00:31:03.809 --> 00:31:07.854 So I encourage people who are allies to lead in and be the executive sponsor. 00:31:07.854 --> 00:31:10.182 and you'll grow a lot in the process too. 00:31:10.211 --> 00:31:10.500 right. 00:31:10.500 --> 00:31:12.030 That's great advice. 00:31:12.351 --> 00:31:14.191 And Rob, two more questions. 00:31:14.191 --> 00:31:29.290 One, you know, you even talking with your fluid foundation and otherwise your own philanthropy as well, you know, a lot of organizations, you know, a lot of different outlets. 00:31:30.371 --> 00:31:32.240 Oh, hold on. 00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:35.471 I am getting a reconnect. 00:31:35.951 --> 00:31:37.171 Hold on. 00:31:42.298 --> 00:31:43.282 There we go. 00:31:45.083 --> 00:31:46.742 Huh, anyway. 00:31:46.923 --> 00:31:48.623 Okay, I'll start over. 00:31:49.103 --> 00:32:13.083 So Rob, I've got two final questions and one of them, given your experience working with a lot of organizations, your example of giving money to organizations with your fluid foundation and otherwise, what are some resources that you might offer to folks who are listening to Clout for Good that may help them on their journey of exploration and, and. 00:32:13.083 --> 00:32:16.007 becoming more authentic themselves. 00:32:17.806 --> 00:32:18.806 It's a great question. 00:32:18.806 --> 00:32:23.105 I do think resources, you can look inside your own company for resources. 00:32:23.105 --> 00:32:24.435 We talked about that. 00:32:24.435 --> 00:32:28.645 Resources are joining a nonprofit and getting to know folks in other industries. 00:32:28.645 --> 00:32:30.306 I think that's a great resource. 00:32:30.306 --> 00:32:34.566 You know, getting involved in community and give back. 00:32:34.566 --> 00:32:39.226 I think that anyone really young can go to the Fluids website. 00:32:39.226 --> 00:32:40.635 It's not just about selling product. 00:32:40.635 --> 00:32:44.705 It's also resources for every identity under the queer umbrella. 00:32:44.705 --> 00:32:46.501 And. 00:32:46.829 --> 00:32:55.269 And the other thing I would just recommend is people find mentors and create strong mentorships and look and nurture those mentors. 00:32:55.269 --> 00:32:58.230 And those are the resources that I would recommend. 00:32:58.230 --> 00:33:07.569 I still, I would just went to a reunion in Florida for the Burdines reunion and my mentors just, I got to see about 20 of them and thank them. 00:33:07.569 --> 00:33:12.470 But I think that each once a year, each once a year, I call up all my mentors and say, thank you. 00:33:12.470 --> 00:33:14.529 And how much they've meant to me. 00:33:14.529 --> 00:33:15.117 So. 00:33:15.117 --> 00:33:19.413 Find those people, nurture those relationships and continue them and carry them forward. 00:33:19.611 --> 00:33:20.401 That's amazing. 00:33:20.401 --> 00:33:24.060 I think this calling your mentors once a year, there's a piece of advice. 00:33:24.060 --> 00:33:24.790 I love it. 00:33:24.790 --> 00:33:26.074 That is fantastic. 00:33:26.074 --> 00:33:26.644 it's so wonderful. 00:33:26.644 --> 00:33:41.753 A lot of retired and, um, it's just so nice just to continue to, to share in gratitude and to look back at, uh, for me, uh, you know, 35, almost 40 year long career and just continue to find those people and say, thank you. 00:33:41.753 --> 00:33:44.134 You meant a lot to me and checking it. 00:33:44.134 --> 00:33:45.314 How, how are you doing? 00:33:45.314 --> 00:33:48.213 Like, how are you, you know, and checking how they are. 00:33:48.213 --> 00:33:52.193 I think that a lot of times, and now, and now it's my turn to be a mentor. 00:33:52.193 --> 00:33:53.400 No, I'm having. 00:33:53.518 --> 00:34:02.042 30 people from Macy's over who I had under my division and just continuing to nurture those relationships both ways. 00:34:02.042 --> 00:34:02.923 That's amazing. 00:34:02.923 --> 00:34:04.262 Impressive. 00:34:04.262 --> 00:34:20.413 My, my last question, Rob is I ask everyone this, that's, that's a guest is you're hosting a clout for good, if you will dinner party, you're going to have some folks over because you've just shared a lot of things or, you know, your, your mentors and other folks you've talked about. 00:34:20.413 --> 00:34:24.992 Um, you definitely, this conversation will inspire folks. 00:34:24.992 --> 00:34:28.503 I think folks will definitely be, and I encourage them to visit fluid. 00:34:28.503 --> 00:34:30.746 And, um, so. 00:34:30.746 --> 00:34:38.757 I like to ask folks that are on the show, who would you invite to a Clout for Good dinner party if you were organizing one? 00:34:38.757 --> 00:34:51.251 What few people that have inspired you along the way who are from the community, either here with us now or they have passed along, but who are some folks that you would want to have at that dinner party? 00:34:52.846 --> 00:34:55.865 I'm going to have a dinner party where I say thank you. 00:34:55.865 --> 00:35:00.286 And my dinner party is actually four people, if I can. 00:35:00.465 --> 00:35:03.565 The first is a pair, it's Marsha P. 00:35:03.565 --> 00:35:05.865 Johnson and Sylvia Rivera. 00:35:05.865 --> 00:35:22.574 I wanna hear their stories, I wanna say thank you for helping lead the queer revolution and say I'm sorry that the gay men turned their backs on you and say thank you for what you did. 00:35:22.574 --> 00:35:24.114 And that's the first. 00:35:24.114 --> 00:35:25.815 The second would be Harvey Milk. 00:35:25.815 --> 00:35:34.614 I also want to say thank you for what you've done and the taking a bullet for us, you know, and being the first. 00:35:34.614 --> 00:35:40.114 And the fourth one would be David Mixner, who is my mentor. 00:35:40.554 --> 00:35:48.355 I get a little emotional right now, who just passed away a few weeks ago and having back again to say thank you one more time. 00:35:48.894 --> 00:35:49.286 Yeah. 00:35:49.286 --> 00:35:50.186 amazing. 00:35:50.186 --> 00:35:56.907 And Rob, I didn't have the honor to go to his funeral, but I know you were a huge part of it. 00:35:56.907 --> 00:36:03.367 And I have read so many wonderful things about how he was honored and what you did to contribute to that. 00:36:03.367 --> 00:36:07.836 So sorry for your loss, but I also want to thank you for that honor that you gave him. 00:36:07.836 --> 00:36:09.646 It sounded like it was really beautiful. 00:36:09.646 --> 00:36:11.101 So that's great. 00:36:11.101 --> 00:36:16.001 I was blessed to, you know, spend a decade with him, so close to him. 00:36:16.001 --> 00:36:34.041 And he taught me so much about how to be a man, to live with principles, to also suffer at times because of your principles, but know that the arc of justice is long and the fight is never over. 00:36:34.041 --> 00:36:36.282 So David taught me a lot. 00:36:36.282 --> 00:36:39.802 He's actually, his face is staring at me right there at his painting. 00:36:39.802 --> 00:36:40.603 I love it. 00:36:40.603 --> 00:36:51.422 And I, and, and, and, and coincidentally right here to my left, I have an original Harvey milk campaign poster in my living room that that is, that is someone I would invite. 00:36:51.422 --> 00:36:54.452 So we'd, we'd be able to add someone else to the list for sure. 00:36:54.452 --> 00:36:57.742 Well, Rob, I love it. 00:36:57.742 --> 00:36:58.443 I love it. 00:36:58.443 --> 00:36:59.552 That would be fantastic. 00:36:59.552 --> 00:37:06.003 Well, Rob, listen, thank you for all you do with fluid and with you for the contributions you make personally. 00:37:06.003 --> 00:37:07.867 So first of all, thank you for that. 00:37:07.867 --> 00:37:10.336 Thank you for taking the time to be on cloud for good. 00:37:10.336 --> 00:37:15.987 I know folks are going to get a lot out of our conversation and thank you for the time. 00:37:15.987 --> 00:37:17.971 I really appreciate it. 00:37:18.510 --> 00:37:20.269 Thank you for the platform you've created. 00:37:20.269 --> 00:37:23.010 You are making a difference too. 00:37:23.010 --> 00:37:24.730 Thank you. 00:37:24.730 --> 00:37:27.210 And go everyone, go be your authentic selves. 00:37:27.429 --> 00:37:29.070 Go be your authentic selves. 00:37:29.070 --> 00:37:31.269 Yes, loud and proud. 00:37:32.110 --> 00:37:42.369 And if you, someone who's close to you doesn't love you because of who you are, there's a lot of other arms that are open to receive you. 00:37:42.590 --> 00:37:43.650 You're perfect. 00:37:43.650 --> 00:37:44.349 Yeah. 00:37:44.349 --> 00:37:44.994 Yeah. 00:37:44.994 --> 00:37:48.655 that, to my listeners, thanks to you as well for joining today. 00:37:48.655 --> 00:37:52.534 Please tune in every other Wednesday for a new episode of Clout for Good. 00:37:52.534 --> 00:37:57.454 Follow us on social and visit the Clout for Good website to subscribe to our newsletter. 00:37:57.454 --> 00:38:03.594 I hope this episode motivates you to use your Clout for Good and to make a difference in the workplace. 00:38:03.594 --> 00:38:04.780 Thanks for joining.