Hello everyone and welcome.
Clout for Good is a bi -weekly podcast that showcases personal and powerful conversations with prominent LGBTQ plus executives who are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant to create a supportive community and inspire LGBTQ plus people, their employers and allies to build equity and inclusion in the workplace.
Today, I'm having a conversation with John Tanzala.
John is the president and CEO.
of the International LGBTQ plus travel association, which is the global leader in advancing LGBTQ plus travel and is the only LGD, LG hold on so many LGBTQ plus, at least I'm not having to say a I a in the middle of it too.
Okay.
Today I'm having a conversation with John Tanzella.
John is the president and CEO of the International LGBTQ Plus Travel Association, which is the global leader in advancing LGBTQ plus travel and is the only LGBTQ plus affiliate member of the World Tourism Organization.
IGTLA's network consists of over 12 ,000 tourism business professionals across 80 countries.
John is a 25 year tourism industry veteran having worked with both Delta Airlines and destination DC.
He currently serves on the board of directors for both the Stonewall National Museum and Archives and Tourism Diversity Matters.
John is a University of Georgia alum and resides in beautiful Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
John, welcome to the show and thanks for joining me today.
Hi David, thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure and an honor to participate and I love the fact that this podcast exists.
So I think what you're doing is a great thing.
So thank you for including me.
Yeah, thanks John.
Well, let's let's jump in.
So why don't you tell us a little bit about how you identify and tell us when and where did you come out?
I know coming out in the workplace isn't usually a one and done situation.
There's usually a lot of conversations and a lot of experiences throughout our careers, but.
Maybe tell us a little bit about one of the first times that you came out, where were you working?
What was the situation and tell us a little bit about that experience.
Well, thank you.
My pronouns are he, him, his.
And as far as looking at when I came out, I'm quite a bit...
let me start that one over, sorry.
Ready?
Thank you.
My pronouns are he, him, his.
And to answer your question of when I came out, I would have probably have been in my late 20s, working in corporate America, Delta's corporate offices headquarters.
Back then in the early 90s, mid 90s, you know, it was a different world for...
LGBTQ professionals, especially in the South back then.
Certainly things have changed considerably in Atlanta and at Delta Airlines and the South.
But back then it was much more challenging.
to be your authentic self and to be out at the workplace, something you really kept under the wraps unless you were in more of an environment such as maybe a flight attendant has a little more flexibility to come out versus being a corporate office where you're with a much more conservative workplace back then.
Yeah.
And, and John, I think I maybe had mentioned this to you when we, when we first had met, I came out in Atlanta in the early nineties as well.
And I know there's this, if you're inside the perimeter, you're safe.
And, I know Delta airlines corporate headquarters is not inside the perimeter.
It's down at Hartsfield international airport.
but there's this perception of the travel industry.
I think a couple of things that are really interesting.
There's this perception of the travel industry.
employs a lot of LGBTQ plus people, even back then, I think there was still that.
And you just brought up, I think, what folks may even think of as a stereotype as, flight attendants might be, they might identify as part of the LGBTQ community.
Why do you think, as you just said, maybe there was a little more freedom if you were a flight attendant than if you were at headquarters?
It's so interesting because I know there's thousands and thousands of flight attendants.
So it's, it's a really large population within an airline.
What, what, what do you think that was all about?
Why was it sort of more okay to be a flight attendant and be out versus working in corporate headquarters?
What do you think was driving that?
I think it was just the freedom as a flight attendant.
You're not going into an office every morning at eight o 'clock.
You're traveling the world with five or six other individuals and you're not really under the microscope the way you are in a corporate office environment working in cubicles and answering to someone every day all day that you're with.
So it's just that freedom.
Hmm.
And again, this was the 90s, so it's very different at Delta now and what they do in our space and in the South, certainly Atlanta.
I mean, it may be still somewhat challenging in small towns and rural South, if you look at Alabama, Mississippi, places like that, but in South Georgia, but certainly not Atlanta though.
Definitely not inside the perimeter.
right.
Yeah.
I think I, I've, I've not been back as often, but I do certainly have friends that still live in Atlanta and certainly know the advances that Delta airlines in particular, has made.
What do you think were, if you think back to those days in the nineties and you're at the corporate offices and you're sort of coming into yourself, and early in your career with your own authenticity and who you are.
What were some of the things that maybe if you can recall sort of entered into your mind sort of why, why wouldn't you share?
Was there, what were, what were the fears or what were the reservations that kept you to whatever degree you were not being authentic to certain groups or certain people?
What were some of the reasons why that was happening back then?
Do you think?
I think because in that corporate southern environment, it was a very conservative macho type of environment.
There wasn't even women in leadership positions back then, right?
Or it was scarce, not like today.
So if you wanted to advance in your career at a company like that in the South, with lots of opportunities, but you had to play the game, whatever the game was at wherever you were working back then.
you know, and the very family sense sensibility.
So it was always about bringing, you know, your wife and kids to the parties and things like that, you know, and there weren't any, anyone out that I knew of at the corporate headquarters.
we all started.
Yeah.
you know, you sort of get to know who each other are.
Maybe you run into them in a bar in, you know, Midtown Atlanta and you're like, my gosh.
You know, or, so we, you know, you, you get your own networks, underground and create that, that affinity for each other to kind of support each other and, talk amongst yourselves outside of the office type thing.
But, but you know, it, it.
It evolved and it's certainly changed and, you know, Atlanta's not what it was in the early 90s.
Yeah, very different.
And I think, you know, still today, the, the stat that's out there today is that still 50 % of people in the workplace fear that they're not going to get promoted or won't be able to be up for that next advancement if they fully come out in the workplace.
So I think I totally agree.
It's, it's different.
It's not maybe as tough to come out in certain environments, as you said, geography company type, et cetera, but.
still that fear exists.
You know, there's still the fear of what, what will happen to me, what will happen to my career.
Well, I know you moved on from a great career at Delta Airlines and stayed in the travel industry and also went into the nonprofit space, but sort of evolved from what was, you know, Delta, a traditional corporate, business into businesses that were more specifically within the LGBTQ space.
So tell me a little bit about how you even, How did you, you know, maybe those folks came to you and said, Hey, we'd love to hire you.
But as you were evaluating, I'm going to leave sort of what's what people view as traditional corporate America and go into businesses like the human rights campaign and otherwise that are truly and what you do today for IGTLA that are truly in the LGBTQ plus space.
What, what sort of decision did you make and what was your thinking to make that transition into?
a more fully focused career in the LGBTQ plus space.
Yeah, after Delta and the reason I left Delta was 9 -11 and we financially the corporation was was hemorrhaging as was everyone in the travel and tourism industry and America at that time.
So I being that I have dual citizenship with Italy, I moved over to Italy for three years and You know, got rid of the tie and suit every day.
and, went over there, but then I did come back and I went to, I was recruited by someone at destination DC and to work in their area and the tourism office, you know, for a major city like DC is very open -minded and progressive and they, you know, it's a diverse city.
So they know their client base is diverse.
They're they're.
employees are diverse, and you were free to be whoever you wanted to be.
I was more on the corporate side, but then also had LGBT events and meetings under me because I was the gay guy in the office.
And IGLTA was one of the conferences that I was going after.
But I also worked a lot with HRC for their annual dinner at the Convention Center in Washington.
And then I was recruited by HRC to come work for them and, and decided to do that.
It was a different, different world because it's a very, it's a, it's a machine.
and I kind of missed the tourism aspect of, cause I grew up in the tourism industry with my parents, being in the airline industry.
So, IGLTA ended up coming and recruiting me from HRC.
And I decided that, you know what?
I missed the tourism industry and the job is in Fort Lauderdale.
I wouldn't mind living down by the beach.
And, and so there you had it.
And, you know, 17 years later, I'm still at IGLTA in Fort Lauderdale.
And, And loving it, you know, being a professional gay and helping, pay forward a lot around the world.
We work in 82 countries, many of which are not welcoming at all to our community.
So it doesn't mean our community doesn't exist, but, organizations like ours try to help lift, LGBT travel professionals in places where it's really challenging, all over the world.
And we do that through.
a great partnership with the US State Department.
We also do it with United Nations and other organizations on the business side of things, World Bank, Asian Development Bank, companies like that that assist us.
And then we have a lot of great partners that we collaborate with, like Delta Airlines is one of our biggest American Express, Marriott, Hilton, Disney, Accor out of Paris.
So.
We have some great partners that help us open doors around the world.
Yeah.
And I, over the years I've heard of IGTLA, I'm an avid traveler, have friends in the travel business who have, talked about the organization to me, but what today, just an insight I'm curious about is, you know, back in the, back when we think of Atlanta in the nineties, there was this thing called the Damron guide and you'd find, you know, where are the friendly places and where, where are the bars and what hotels are friendly.
And there was, I think, from my perspective, and this could be a very privileged perspective, but from my perspective, things have definitely improved.
And I'm not as mindful of that as I travel probably thanks to the work that IGTLA has done throughout the years.
But what are some of the challenges that face LGBTQ plus travelers today?
Is it sort of.
Country specific is it is it sort of companies that don't embrace and making sure that travelers are aware what are some of the challenges that still today exists.
I would say both of those, but I'd lean probably a little bit more towards the destinations because you can avoid a particular company that's not welcoming.
But if you're traveling to a destination that's not welcoming or...
you know, there's 70 of them, 70 countries that, you know, it's illegal to be LGBTQ.
So that's even more challenging.
So, you know, and something we advocate is that no matter what your sexual orientation is, you need to do your research before you go understand the laws, because that's very important and the culture, you know, you can't go in there.
wanting them to change just because you are there, right?
Their culture and their history is deep and it takes time.
But going is a good thing because you want to go and support LGBT travel professionals and destinations where it is challenging because they may not be able to afford or have the ability to leave, but they also want to thrive where they are.
So by by going and supporting them is, I think, really important.
And that's something we really work on.
And so, you know, if you're going to Uganda, for example, which is an extreme case, but if you're going to Uganda because they have the best gorilla safaris, okay, great.
But use an IGLTA member that knows where you can stay, that's going to be safe.
And tour guides that will make sure you're, you know, you understand what you can and cannot do there.
And, you know, basically just to have a safe, welcoming time because you're not, you know, it's not Provincetown, you know, so you've got to, you've got to just be mindful.
And we've done some work with the state department on some, some information about different destinations.
And we have a lot of information on our website about legalities in every country.
But.
Again, you don't even have to be LGBTQ to get in trouble.
You need to be mindful, whoever you are, when you travel.
Those of us that live in New York or LA, for example, that we're in a bit of a bubble, and sometimes you forget that when you travel, even in the US, places in the US.
Well, and you mentioned Uganda last weekend.
I coincidentally watched the Bobby Wine documentary, on, their sort of presidential hopeful and, and the challenges that hap that are, that exist and happen in that country.
And it's terrifying.
I mean, it's terrifying and thinking about traveling to a destination like that is really overwhelming.
and tell us, I know that.
I, you know, I ask folks on the podcast about resources and it sounds like we've struck a really great resource as a resource.
Where do folks go?
if they do, as you said, embark on, I'm thinking of traveling, I want to learn more.
How can they, utilize IGT, IGTLA, where do they go and how do they access that information?
Our website has a lot of information because we are a nonprofit association.
So our whole core is about free information and resources and contacts.
We're not a booking engine.
You know, we don't book travel like Expedia or, or travel agent.
We have plenty that do, but we can help you find a good travel agent, for example, that, that specializes in safaris.
but our, our website is, is great for that type of information all over the world.
The US State Department travel site is also a good one.
ILGA, I -L -G -A dot org is more on the human rights side and that's also a really good, it's more of like a maybe a global version of HRC to some extent, not so political but great resource as well when you're traveling.
Yeah.
I, you know, and myself, you know, having visited a lot of different countries around the world, I actually truthfully haven't thought about hiring a tour in countries where I have had to hire a tour operator for whatever reason, whether it be India or Africa, where it's just a little more complicated in general to travel.
I think that's a great idea to make sure that you are pointed in the right direction and probably getting.
and education along the way of things to be mindful of and to understand to your point, whether you're LGBTQ or not, just making sure that you can be sort of honor culture and be ready for what that situation looks like in that country.
think, you know, if you're LGBTQ, I mean, you don't have to have an LGBTQ tour guide, but they're going to be extra interested in you and they're going to give you history and things like that about the community there that you wouldn't have even known.
So it's always advantageous to support the community when you travel, especially places like India and Africa and Asia, really everywhere.
Yeah.
Well, you know, tell me a little bit about, I ask every guess about Clout for Good is, is titled as such because when you are out and when you are being yourself and when you are open about that in the workplace, you can definitely make a great difference.
You can make an impact so you can use your outness for, for good.
Tell me a little bit about, You know, where in your career could be, you know, IGTLA specifically or otherwise, but where have you used your clout for good and where have you, do you feel like you've made a significant impact that you're proud of that you could share with, with the listeners?
yeah, I think our IGLT foundation, which was something that I spearheaded in 2012, the whole purpose for that was to pay forward and help because we would get LGBT travel businesses all over the world reaching out to us thinking where there's big wealthy American company and, and we're not, we're a nonprofit, but, but we were very focused on.
more Western travel businesses, helping market them, connecting them, which we still do all that, but developing a foundation that can receive grants, donations, things like that, has been enabling us to do conferences.
We do one every year in India, for example, in South Africa, that are regional in scope to help educate.
the travel industry, LGBTQ travel industry professionals in those places that may not be able to afford to go to Europe or North America for conferences, you know, for networking and education.
So we do things like that.
And then we do fellowship programs that we bring them actually to our convention or to one of those other conferences that we do around the world.
So there's a lot we're doing on the foundation that I'm really proud of.
Research is another one.
not just about figuring out the dollar spend of our community, which is huge, but also trends, what is our community looking for, you know, family travel is something growing in the LGBT community.
So we're trying to identify things that are trending as well as data that helps the industry overall and universities like tourism.
tourism departments at universities.
We work really closely with all over the world and things like that, you know, just to help elevate our community and give us, give us a voice.
You know, like you mentioned, you know, us being the only organization, LGBT organization at the UNWTO.
And basically the purpose of that is really to give us a voice.
So we are, we have a seat at the table.
Otherwise LGBT issues would never come up because nobody else is going to bring it up if, if, if we're not at the table.
Ray we just, you know, kind of hammer in that, you know, Hey, don't forget about our community and diversity and our community touches so many different communities, whether it's black or Latino women, disabled, you know, there's, there's, we touch everything.
So there's LGBTQ people in every community in the world.
So, that's why we work with a lot of mainstream organizations, like the UNWTO.
is that we do have a voice and get our members some visibility as well.
That's great.
I mean, I have myself seen no, no, no, no, it's great.
And I think that, you know, I myself having just been such a travel lover my entire life, I've seen a huge difference in the way I feel traveling.
And I love what you said a little earlier about utilizing businesses that are LGBT owned or at least friendly.
And I, it made me just now think back to.
20 something years ago, my first trip to Bali and I hired this, a guy who identified as a gay man and he took my friend and I on a tour of the island.
And, you know, I think as you also, as you say, you know, if no one else is there and showing up, it doesn't make any change.
And so one, it was, I think it was such a great feeling to give that gentleman business, but it was also great to build a relationship with him on that tour.
And, And he was so interested in what we were doing and who we were, and we were equally as interested in him as well.
So it's just such a great exchange.
And I think it really enables people to, I think, see things through an LGBTQ lens, which, as you've mentioned, we sort of tend to do in our little bubbles here in the US.
So I think it's a really great way to experience a new place and be able to see how your community lives somewhere else.
Yeah, and like you said, he was curious about your lives, you know, because you're another world away and he's probably never been to the States.
But yeah, we really encourage people to use our members because these are people who are out there all over, Jamaica even, you know, Jamaica is a really tough one for us and the Americas, but they have a very large LGBT community, particularly transgender.
they have some great nonprofits there that if you're going because your brother is getting married in Jamaica and you don't really want to go to Jamaica, but you have to go.
No, why not give a day or half a day and volunteer at one of the LGBT organizations there?
That's, that's what we always try to try to say.
It's fun to do that.
And they.
Yeah, I bet.
Well, and so changing gears a little bit now thinking of all the experience you've had in your career, I'm sure in managing lots of lots of people in the leadership roles you've had and also being managed by others and part of organizations.
What, what advice now that you sort of look back at your journey and you've seen, corporate and nonprofit America sort of evolve.
What advice, looking back at your own experience, would you share to maybe someone who's new to the workforce and they're thinking about, I think I want to show up.
I want to come out, maybe potentially that seriously, or even to someone who maybe hasn't been out in the workplace and they're trying to sort of think about how to navigate it.
What advice would you give folks that are thinking about, showing up a little differently in the workplace.
My advice would be, you know, I'm kind of a cautious or conservative person in some ways, but, you know, be your authentic self, but don't cram it down someone's throat.
Especially if you're in a more, you know, growing up in the South, for the most part, you know, there are a lot of places in America that they're still not quite there yet.
So, you know, you may be there yet.
You may be there because you're, you're loud and proud and you're 23, but, You know, you have to be mindful of other people and where they're at and give them a little bit of breathing room and kind of maybe take it slower because again, not everywhere is New York City, you know.
So that's probably my biggest advice is don't go in the closet, but be compassionate with people who may not get it.
and give them time and as they learn about you and learn to like you and love you, they're going to accept you.
It just takes a little bit of time.
You know, I agree a hundred percent.
I think that, you know, one thing that I learned growing up in a very small town in Michigan and coming out late in my twenties and coming out.
And it's a lot of it is really about exposure and to your point of meeting folks where they are, it may just be you've made these big decisions.
You're experiencing this new self that you have and meeting new people in your new community.
But a lot of people aren't.
exposed to that.
And certainly we can say they should experience and should go research and educate themselves, which they should.
But that may not be the situation.
And I think meeting folks where they are is really, it's really good advice because often it's about that exposure and, well, I know John and okay, now I'm understanding he identifies as gay and that seems fine to me and kind of going along your journey together.
And I think also that, You know, giving folks the benefit of the doubt, I think is something that's come up on Cloud for Good quite a bit.
Guests have said, you may be terrified and that may be justified, but often people really are compassionate and people really will listen and will learn.
And I think you're, I think you're right.
It's sort of, it's a little bit of proceed with caution.
And I think the other thing people have said, and you alluded to in your own experiences, you know, you kind of find your people along the way.
and then let that expand a bit.
Well, and John, one final question that I ask everyone is, we wanna know who has inspired you along the way.
So for a moment, imagine you're hosting a Clout for Good dinner party and you're gonna invite folks to come to this party to celebrate.
So what maybe queer icon or queer person doesn't necessarily even have to be an icon?
has inspired you or is there someone that you just appreciate as part of your journey that you'd like to invite to your Clout For Good dinner party?
Hmm.
Well, I think I'd invite my parents because they're both deceased and it'd be fantastic to have them at a dinner party.
Let them see where I am now in my life.
But as far as queer icons, I mean, I have some favorites.
I don't know if they're my influence.
I mean, I'd love to have dinner with someone like Cher and Lily Tomlin and Rock Hudson.
Marsha Johnson would be fascinating to have dinner with.
Alan Turing.
Betty White.
You can see I tend to go for more of the vintage.
I like it.
The Rock Hudson has not come up in conversations and talk about needing to figure out a way to be authentic.
I mean, what a challenged, you know, yeah, life that he went through and had to navigate.
Well, those are great.
I love that.
think on the same term of Rock Hudson, another dreamy man that was in the closet, Cary Grant would be fascinating.
And today in 2024, look at the world today, Cary.
When you were living, you couldn't be authentic.
So it'd be interesting to hear the perspectives of, like Rock Hudson back in their day, what it was like, I think would be a very interesting conversation.
I think so too.
And such highly orchestrated closet -ness.
I mean, such highly orchestrated because they were such public figures and sought after figures.
And you know, I'm going to ask you a bonus question because of what you do for a living.
I have to imagine your location for your Clout for Good dinner could be interesting.
Where, maybe, where's one of your favorite places that you've...
Traveled having seen the world and worked with all these places.
What are some of your favorite destinations?
Where might you even consider hosting your club for good party?
Well, I've been around a while, so I have been to 45 countries, which is a lot, you know, not as many as some people, but it's a lot.
I wouldn't say there's anywhere I didn't like, but some that might come to the top of my list to answer your question.
I think South Africa is up there, Italy, Hawaii, those are probably three that come to mind.
it.
I love it.
And I'm actually just curious personally, because you made this comment and you invited your parents to your dinner and you also made a comment earlier that they had been in the travel industry.
They were in the travel industry as well?
What did they do?
They both in the airline industry.
That's how they met.
They met at LaGuardia airport.
They were working for American airlines and my mom was at the ticket counter and my dad was on the ramp.
And every day he would wink at her and she wouldn't talk to him because she thought he was fresh.
And he eventually wore her down and the rest is history.
So that's a great story.
it's a really great story.
And you've taken that and expanded it and built on it and lived in Italy to honor your family and all sorts of things, which is amazing.
Well, John, thank you so much for what you do for the community.
Again, I keep saying I'm, I am such a travel person.
I love traveling and it's my focus always.
I always like to have another trip plan right as I'm finishing up my trip that I'm on.
So I truly do and I know a lot of folks within the community really appreciate what IGTLA does and what you're doing.
So thanks so much for joining me today.
for having me.
It was great to have this conversation.
I appreciate it.
absolutely.
And to my listeners, thank you so much for joining us today.
Please tune in every other Wednesday for a new episode of Cloud for Good.
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I hope this episode motivates you to use your Cloud for Good to make a difference in your workplace.