WEBVTT 00:00:02.254 --> 00:00:03.914 Hello everyone and welcome. 00:00:03.914 --> 00:00:13.794 Club for Good is a bi -weekly podcast that showcases personal and powerful conversations with prominent LGBTQ plus executives who are out in the workplace. 00:00:13.933 --> 00:00:25.094 The conversations are meant to create a supportive community and inspire LGBTQ plus people, their employers and allies to build equity and inclusion in the workplace. 00:00:25.434 --> 00:00:29.198 Today, I'm excited to welcome Terrence Franklin to the show. 00:00:29.198 --> 00:00:40.118 Terry holds a law degree from Harvard Law School and practices trust in estate litigation in the law firm he co -founded, Sachs, Glazier, Franklin, and Lodi's. 00:00:40.118 --> 00:00:47.537 In addition to being an accomplished and recognized attorney, Terry is a passionate storyteller and activist. 00:00:47.537 --> 00:00:57.165 He discovered the 1846 legal documents that emancipated his family from slavery, which helped him understand his life's mission. 00:00:57.165 --> 00:01:02.146 which he defines as bending the arc of history towards justice. 00:01:02.225 --> 00:01:17.186 Terry's legal expertise is the inspiration and basis for a novel and limited series he's working on called The Last Will of Lucy Sutton, the story of his ancestors' escape from slavery and exodus to freedom in Illinois. 00:01:17.206 --> 00:01:26.450 He recently completed a memoir, An Arcbender's Journal, which tells his story of how he found himself while looking for his ancestors. 00:01:26.542 --> 00:01:37.201 Terry has served on the board of directors of Outfest, a Los Angeles based LGBTQ arts organization, and is a contributing opinion writer for advocate .com. 00:01:37.201 --> 00:01:39.049 Terry, welcome to Clout for Good. 00:01:39.159 --> 00:01:42.000 Thank you so much David, it's a pleasure to be here. 00:01:42.317 --> 00:01:45.897 Yeah, your intro, there's so many interesting things. 00:01:45.897 --> 00:01:52.308 And as a brand marketer and a storyteller myself, I'm really excited to hear a lot more from you today. 00:01:52.308 --> 00:01:54.298 So let's jump in. 00:01:54.457 --> 00:02:04.528 So I start the conversation on Cloud4Good by first of all, asking everyone to discuss their identity and their path to authenticity. 00:02:04.528 --> 00:02:11.512 So Terry, tell us how do you identify and tell us maybe a little bit about your coming out experience. 00:02:11.512 --> 00:02:16.092 Okay, he, him, his are my adjectives. 00:02:16.092 --> 00:02:24.352 And my coming out experience, I think probably like a lot of people, has been a bit of in and out throughout a lifetime. 00:02:24.352 --> 00:02:34.912 But I spent probably the first 46 years of my life trying to not be what parts of me told me I was. 00:02:34.912 --> 00:02:38.271 I grew up in Chicago. 00:02:38.936 --> 00:02:51.575 in a Christian household, African American family on the south side of Chicago, and really didn't have any role models or examples of black, gay, successful people. 00:02:51.575 --> 00:02:56.015 That just wasn't a concept that existed in my mind. 00:02:56.096 --> 00:03:07.355 And given my Christian background, there was no way to really look outside that frame to see any examples of people who I might be able to look to as examples. 00:03:07.575 --> 00:03:08.888 So I spent... 00:03:08.888 --> 00:03:17.508 a lot of my life thinking, you know, there's no way for me to be this thing, even though I feel these feelings and I have these attractions. 00:03:18.348 --> 00:03:32.719 And through a series of events, I had an experience in college where I was sort of outed to my parents who confronted me in a bit of a... 00:03:35.352 --> 00:03:36.711 What's the word? 00:03:41.592 --> 00:03:46.211 What's the confrontation that you have with somebody? 00:03:46.211 --> 00:03:53.072 It's like when you have somebody who has alcohol issues or substance abuse issues. 00:03:53.072 --> 00:03:53.705 It was... 00:03:53.705 --> 00:03:58.425 it was a bit of a, my gosh, I can't think of the word either. 00:03:58.728 --> 00:04:01.867 yeah, if we want to record that. 00:04:02.147 --> 00:04:14.367 But the bottom line is I got married to a wonderful woman, fell in love and loved her as much as you can love someone when you're not truly loving yourself. 00:04:14.587 --> 00:04:18.148 We had two wonderful daughters together, raised those children. 00:04:18.148 --> 00:04:26.480 And at some point, I think when I was 46, I look back and realize that half of my life had been spent. 00:04:26.615 --> 00:04:28.975 not truly being who I was. 00:04:30.615 --> 00:04:49.755 And although I had told my wife when we first began dating that I was bisexual because that was the best term I could think of to describe my past experiences and really my hope for being able to have a life as a husband and father and all of that. 00:04:50.016 --> 00:04:53.367 And after 23 years, my... 00:04:53.367 --> 00:04:57.326 body and mind said, wait a minute, this is not who you are. 00:04:57.326 --> 00:04:58.927 And I cheated. 00:04:58.927 --> 00:05:01.007 She discovered the fact. 00:05:01.127 --> 00:05:07.447 And in 2010, I realized that I needed to come out and be who I was. 00:05:07.447 --> 00:05:13.918 And that was a coming out both personally, and then I had to take that step and do it professionally as well. 00:05:13.918 --> 00:05:16.228 So in my office, I came in and told everyone. 00:05:16.228 --> 00:05:21.432 And so it's, you know, and that was 2010. 00:05:21.432 --> 00:05:26.411 So it's been 14 years now, which seems like just yesterday in some ways. 00:05:26.411 --> 00:05:29.584 On the other hand, it's been a lifetime. 00:05:30.350 --> 00:05:35.050 Wow, I certainly can understand. 00:05:35.050 --> 00:05:40.810 I also dated women until my mid -20s before I came out. 00:05:40.810 --> 00:05:46.939 And I think there's this, at least from our generation, this idea of this is your path, this is what you do. 00:05:46.939 --> 00:05:53.810 And also growing up actually in Michigan, sort of next door to Illinois, didn't see a lot of representation. 00:05:53.810 --> 00:05:55.819 I mean, quite frankly, none, didn't see any. 00:05:55.819 --> 00:05:57.838 And today, fortunately, we do have. 00:05:57.838 --> 00:06:03.218 representation in media and other outlets that folks can get exposure to, but didn't have that. 00:06:03.218 --> 00:06:07.497 And so I sort of thought this is, I guess, the path and made that choice. 00:06:07.497 --> 00:06:08.668 It's a tough choice. 00:06:08.668 --> 00:06:26.798 And especially after you committed to it for so long, how was the experience of, you know, were you at this time in 2010, had you already founded your firm with your partners and had you already had your own business and were you coming back to these? 00:06:26.798 --> 00:06:28.439 How was that experience? 00:06:28.439 --> 00:06:44.139 Yeah, I had founded the firm in 2001 and had been working with these people, my two main partners that I've been working with one way or another since 1991 or 1992. 00:06:44.139 --> 00:06:56.600 So a long time we'd have this relationship and I knew them, they knew me as a couple with my ex -wife, with my then wife and we were friends and so. 00:06:56.696 --> 00:07:01.555 In some ways, this was a bit of a shock to everyone. 00:07:01.555 --> 00:07:06.435 I think there were some people who came to me afterward and said, you know, I always kind of wondered. 00:07:06.435 --> 00:07:10.105 And there were others who said, my gosh, I had no idea. 00:07:10.105 --> 00:07:17.115 You know, you and your wife were so together and raising these children and seemed so happy. 00:07:17.115 --> 00:07:25.076 And, you know, to the extent that people can find ways to make happiness in a situation where you're not truly living your full life. 00:07:25.076 --> 00:07:26.295 That's what I was. 00:07:26.295 --> 00:07:30.216 Intervention is the word we were both trying to think of earlier. 00:07:32.315 --> 00:07:50.591 So it was a workplace and whole life transformation to suddenly become a different person in some ways than I had been to my friends and colleagues, my professional colleagues. 00:07:51.278 --> 00:08:13.697 Well, and you mentioned your family had, you know, whether it was based in their Midwest values or their Christian religion values, both of which I'm very familiar with having grown up in Michigan, like I mentioned, but also I'm curious, you know, you had a career in law before your own firm and had been with other firms and had other experiences. 00:08:13.697 --> 00:08:18.574 I'd be interested in your take, you know, you clearly hadn't come out yet, but. 00:08:18.574 --> 00:08:22.394 What were some of the signals you received from being in that industry? 00:08:22.394 --> 00:08:31.834 Was that something you had gotten cues and had seen things in your experience that you thought this industry is accepting, this industry isn't accepting? 00:08:31.834 --> 00:08:43.543 What's your point of view of the legal industry, if you will, in the way that it accepts and includes its LGBTQ plus employees? 00:08:43.543 --> 00:08:44.063 Right. 00:08:44.063 --> 00:09:02.043 Well, I think that certainly at the time that I first started practicing, there were so few people who, you know, I started off, I graduated from law school in 1989, went to a big firm and it was thought of as one of the more liberal firms. 00:09:02.384 --> 00:09:09.653 It was very, Morrison & Forster was the name of the firm and it had the reputation for having the mofo difference. 00:09:09.653 --> 00:09:17.995 It was based out of San Francisco and, wanted to express itself as a place that was more open and welcoming. 00:09:17.995 --> 00:09:25.436 But we used to have a directory of law firms that we would look at to decide who we were going to apply for summer internships or jobs with. 00:09:25.436 --> 00:09:39.115 And they would have little statistics and charts about the numbers of African-Americans, the numbers of Latinos or Hispanics, the numbers of LGBTQ at the time we was gay or lesbian. 00:09:39.115 --> 00:09:42.903 We didn't have LGBTQ as a... 00:09:42.903 --> 00:10:11.618 signifier and MoFo is one of the few firms at the time that had listed two or three out of the some probably over 200 or 300 attorneys at the firm at the time who were listed as actually gay and there was actually one partner who became the managing partner who was gay I think within the first couple of years that I was at the firm which was really extraordinary and a real statement. 00:10:11.895 --> 00:10:29.446 Having said that, when I looked around at my class of fellow interning lawyers, there were probably five guys of our 35 who seemed like they might be gay, but nobody talked about it. 00:10:29.446 --> 00:10:31.635 Nobody acknowledged it. 00:10:31.635 --> 00:10:36.916 It was taboo enough that this wasn't a place where you were really going to put yourself out there. 00:10:36.916 --> 00:10:41.240 And that had been my experience in college. 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:46.399 high school that amongst yourselves you might whisper or acknowledge. 00:10:46.500 --> 00:11:05.139 But if you wanted to be successful, if you wanted to find a path to achievement, which is what all of us who went through the process of fighting to get into college and fighting to get into law school and fighting to get to the best law firms we're trying to do, there just weren't those examples there. 00:11:05.139 --> 00:11:11.365 And so why would you burden yourself with an additional Hmm. 00:11:12.056 --> 00:11:19.395 additional challenge to success by admitting this thing that really wasn't a cloud. 00:11:19.855 --> 00:11:21.635 So it's been a long process. 00:11:21.635 --> 00:11:43.067 It's been wonderful to watch since 1989 to the present an evolution in our thinking, you know, a transformation really in our ways of living that, you know, the idea of marriage equality even, you know, two years before 2015 would have seemed at least to me, incomprehensible. 00:11:43.067 --> 00:11:50.298 And I had trouble understanding that concept or even getting used to the term husband to describe my husband. 00:11:50.298 --> 00:11:55.748 It took a long time for those words, for that word to make sense in this context. 00:11:55.748 --> 00:11:57.498 But, you know, this is our experience. 00:11:57.498 --> 00:12:05.307 And I think young people entering the profession today find that it's a much more open and welcoming profession. 00:12:05.307 --> 00:12:06.552 There are lots of... 00:12:06.552 --> 00:12:11.932 organizations and entities that support LGBTQ attorneys. 00:12:11.932 --> 00:12:17.611 There's Lambda Legal that fights for the rights of LGBTQ people. 00:12:17.611 --> 00:12:29.192 There's Lavender Law, which is sort of a national network of lawyers that provide continuing education and opportunities and encourage one another. 00:12:29.292 --> 00:12:34.792 The ABA, American Bar Association, has a... 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:40.240 diversity, equity, and inclusion aspect. 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:56.440 In fact, I was on a commission for the ABA commission on gay, I was on a commission that was advocating for LGBTQ rights among lawyers and pushing for changes and developments in the law. 00:12:56.440 --> 00:13:05.048 So, you know, I don't know where this will go because I think there's always resistance to change and we can see that happening. 00:13:05.048 --> 00:13:09.868 across the country and there's still so many places where the world can be better. 00:13:09.868 --> 00:13:18.552 But I would not have wanted to be the gay black man I am at any time in the past and I can only hope for a better and brighter future. 00:13:19.214 --> 00:13:27.333 I think that's, you know, and as you mentioned, I think certainly in the eighties and nineties, there was a lot of this sort of hide yourself. 00:13:27.333 --> 00:13:34.913 I've given the example of one of my managers and one of my first jobs had a, had a gay holiday party and a straight holiday party. 00:13:34.913 --> 00:13:40.364 And it just sort of was a course of what you did was sort of kept your personal life private. 00:13:40.364 --> 00:13:44.590 If you, if you really didn't want people to know what that was and. 00:13:44.590 --> 00:13:50.179 As you said, you know, sort of just now having this sort of, I don't want all these things working against me. 00:13:50.179 --> 00:13:52.230 I've worked so hard to get here. 00:13:52.230 --> 00:14:10.309 And I think the stat that's, that's out there now is still 49 % of employees who identify as LGBTQ still feel that showing up truly authentically can hinder their ability to be promoted and can hinder their opportunity to have a more successful career. 00:14:10.309 --> 00:14:10.734 So. 00:14:10.734 --> 00:14:14.033 It's, it certainly is, as you mentioned, I think it certainly is better. 00:14:14.033 --> 00:14:23.214 And I certainly see from my volunteer work and being out in the community, law firms are huge contributors to our efforts. 00:14:23.214 --> 00:14:30.254 And so you do see a lot of participation and a lot of exposure out there, which is really, really positive. 00:14:30.894 --> 00:14:40.590 Terry switching gears a little, I, in preparation for our talk, after we were introduced to one another, I watched your Ted talk on. 00:14:40.590 --> 00:14:43.440 Bending the Arc of History Towards Justice. 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:50.029 And I certainly encourage listeners to do the same so they can hear more of the details of this engagement that you delivered. 00:14:50.029 --> 00:14:58.649 But for today, might you tell us what you even mean by bending the arc of history towards justice? 00:14:58.649 --> 00:15:03.370 And tell us how this is, you've even mentioned this has become your life's work. 00:15:03.370 --> 00:15:04.823 Tell us a little bit about it. 00:15:04.823 --> 00:15:24.943 Absolutely, it is my life's work and it's kind of amazing to find a mission in life and I think that's something that I now try to encourage other people to do is to try to figure out not what you want to be or who you want to be but how you might want to change the world for the better. 00:15:25.104 --> 00:15:31.416 And if you use that as a guiding principle it can help you to find the things and the... 00:15:31.416 --> 00:15:37.855 the goals that you need to achieve that mission and as long as you're working towards that mission, you feel fulfilled. 00:15:37.855 --> 00:15:45.275 So the bottom line is that I had been doing this particular practice area, trust in estate litigation. 00:15:45.275 --> 00:15:55.916 So will contests, family disputes, that kind of work for 25 years when I discovered that there was a will contest in my family. 00:15:55.916 --> 00:16:00.285 The challenge to a document from 1846. 00:16:00.375 --> 00:16:19.115 because it turns out that my great -great-great -great -grandfather was a white farmer in Florida, and he owned my great-great -great -great -grandmother, whom he described in his last Will and Testament as his, quote, mulatto slave Lucy, aged about 45. 00:16:19.336 --> 00:16:40.076 But my fourth great -grandfather's will went on to set Lucy free, along with her eight children and gr - six grandchildren who were all listed by name and age in the document and with stipulation that they were to find their way to Illinois or Ohio or Indiana, free state, and claim their freedom. 00:16:40.176 --> 00:16:44.696 So I discovered this in 2014. 00:16:45.615 --> 00:17:21.715 It had been a circuitous path to uncovering this document and looking back now I realize that Perhaps all my life I've been given clues that I believe were clues from my ancestors, from Lucy speaking to me across time and across ages, perhaps through my DNA, telling me that this is my destiny, is to find her story and to uncover her story and to reveal it to the world and to try to understand what her story means. 00:17:21.816 --> 00:17:27.571 Because when I first went looking for this document, Do you want to ask a question? 00:17:27.571 --> 00:17:28.541 I don't want to stop you. 00:17:28.541 --> 00:17:29.311 no, go ahead. 00:17:29.311 --> 00:17:30.582 This is it's fascinating. 00:17:30.582 --> 00:17:31.807 No, keep going. 00:17:31.827 --> 00:17:37.028 I first began looking for this document in 2001. 00:17:37.028 --> 00:17:54.768 I'd gone to a family reunion, and part of the reunion materials included this little typed up transcript from this document that said, I, John Sutton, being of sound mind but infirm in body, own the following property. 00:17:54.768 --> 00:17:58.307 And I had seen this typed up in cursive font. 00:17:58.307 --> 00:18:11.008 So those of you who are old enough, your listeners who are old enough to know what a cursive font means know that you can change the font in an old typewriter from the 80s to make it look like cursive. 00:18:11.107 --> 00:18:23.048 So what this was a clue to me was that someone, a relative, had gone and done research in the 80s and had found this document in Illinois and the public records in southern Illinois. 00:18:23.127 --> 00:18:28.948 And the description of it said that there was a copy of it that was there in southern Illinois. 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:33.380 There was also a copy of this will that had been recorded in Georgia. 00:18:33.380 --> 00:18:38.259 And the original was in Jacksonville, Florida, which is where John Sutton lived. 00:18:38.579 --> 00:18:42.680 And when I first saw it in 2001, I was fascinated. 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:45.440 I thought, hey, I'm a trust and estates lawyer. 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:47.359 Maybe I should try and find this. 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:51.089 I called the clerk in Jacksonville and I said, I'm trying to find this will. 00:18:51.089 --> 00:18:52.980 Here's the page and line number. 00:18:52.980 --> 00:18:56.089 She said, yeah, we'll send it to you. 00:18:56.089 --> 00:18:58.743 Send me $2 for the cost of the copy. 00:18:58.743 --> 00:18:59.874 and I sent it to her. 00:18:59.874 --> 00:19:03.044 It was 2001 and I never heard back. 00:19:03.044 --> 00:19:04.702 I forgot about it. 00:19:04.943 --> 00:19:17.483 14 years later or 13 years later, I had a great aunt who was turning 100 and I wanted to do something to commemorate her birthday and I remembered, not that I had gone looking for the document, but I remembered those reunion materials. 00:19:17.584 --> 00:19:28.440 So I dug around in my papers, I found this thing and I pulled it out and by now, I'm still a trust and estate lawyer, but it's 13 years more of experience. 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:39.680 I had then become a fellow in the American College of Trust and Estate Council, which is a national organization of trust and estate lawyers who support each other in the development of the law. 00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:44.339 So I now had resource and access to people across the country. 00:19:44.339 --> 00:19:46.839 I could call up and ask for advice. 00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:53.776 So I called lawyers in Florida and I explained that I was trying to find this document from 1846 and. 00:19:53.816 --> 00:19:59.655 I heard back from them there was the great fire of Jacksonville in 1901 and everything was destroyed. 00:19:59.655 --> 00:20:01.655 You're never gonna find this. 00:20:01.655 --> 00:20:12.455 But then I found this paralegal who listened to my story and heard me explain that my green aunt had been this special lady whose 100th birthday was coming. 00:20:12.455 --> 00:20:14.506 She'd been married to a Tuskegee Airman. 00:20:14.506 --> 00:20:17.536 She'd walked four miles each way to get her degree. 00:20:17.536 --> 00:20:20.195 And this paralegal got inspired. 00:20:20.195 --> 00:20:26.700 And she told me, you know, There was the great fire, but let me see what I could do. 00:20:26.700 --> 00:20:29.539 And she set about trying to find the document. 00:20:29.539 --> 00:20:54.104 And ultimately she found it and sent me these images across time and the country and that this red wax seal on a document that you can't see on a podcast, but it just vibrated with a truth and a reality that made this document real to me in a way that it hadn't before. 00:20:54.167 --> 00:21:04.548 and really opened the door to my continued path to understand what that document meant and whether there were other documents that supported it. 00:21:04.548 --> 00:21:21.200 And those documents have been a connection to the past and have helped me to see that my ancestors are at one end of an arc of history and I have descendants in the future and whether they're my direct descendants from my children or... 00:21:21.208 --> 00:21:25.667 people who will look back wondering what we did to try to make the world better. 00:21:25.667 --> 00:21:31.748 And so I understand that my place is between the past and between the future. 00:21:31.748 --> 00:21:36.270 And it's my role is to help to make the world better for the people who come out. 00:21:37.230 --> 00:21:37.930 I love it. 00:21:37.930 --> 00:21:45.430 I love how it's so connected to your profession, your family sort of, you know, documentation and history. 00:21:45.430 --> 00:21:49.630 And also to, as you said, sort of exploring the truth. 00:21:49.630 --> 00:21:57.009 And as you had just come out several years before and you were, you were probably still figuring yourself out and figure out that journey. 00:21:57.009 --> 00:22:07.488 How, how do you think this work and this experience you had with this, did it change anything about your, your approach to your work and your profession? 00:22:07.928 --> 00:22:29.048 It did in that I have a greater sense of perspective that the documents that were created in 1846 by this white man who, you know, I understood, owned my ancestor and therefore she had no real agency or control over her life. 00:22:29.048 --> 00:22:38.021 But I wanted to believe that Lucy, did have some agency even within the bounds of slavery in an antebellum period. 00:22:38.021 --> 00:22:52.751 And that somehow she got John to see her humanity and to recognize that and to therefore take action in a time when a white man didn't need to do that to make sure that she and her children would be free. 00:22:52.852 --> 00:23:07.175 And that gives you a different sense of the value and the importance of the work that we do on a day -to -day basis so that a document that's drafted today, may have ramifications and repercussions way into the future. 00:23:07.375 --> 00:23:14.496 And recognizing that importance has changed my perspective and my understanding on the work that I do. 00:23:14.695 --> 00:23:34.539 And frankly, because I think this story is a story that has lots of lessons for lots of people to hear, my mission, as I see it is to tell the story as widely as I can and so it's inspired me to find different ways. 00:23:34.539 --> 00:23:43.349 So I'm working on this novel, you know, I'm working on this limited series for TV and you know we're working on musical pieces. 00:23:43.349 --> 00:23:52.569 We've been commissioned by the Oakland Symphony Chorus to create essentially a musical piece that has inspired additional thoughts. 00:23:52.569 --> 00:23:54.339 I've got this grand musical idea. 00:23:54.339 --> 00:23:55.448 We're going to tell this. 00:23:55.448 --> 00:24:07.867 Antebellum interracial, intergenerational, intersectional, fully sexual, unbelievably true tale of how the power of love will set you free. 00:24:07.948 --> 00:24:18.307 I mean, that's been become, you know, this empowering vision that these documents and connection to my history has has given me insights into. 00:24:18.307 --> 00:24:24.491 So this is part of that mission to is sitting here talking to you and sharing the story. 00:24:24.622 --> 00:24:25.342 That's right. 00:24:25.342 --> 00:24:51.539 I think, you know, the power of for clout for good, you know, the, the power of being yourself and telling your truth and showing up and, and with all of this that you've experienced, how now you look back at the years you, you know, and certainly had a portion of your life that was, I'm sure for the most part, very happy and enjoyable, but now have made this decision. 00:24:51.662 --> 00:25:15.301 You know, several years ago to, to take this different path and be out and, and proclaim your, you know, queer identity and how does sitting here now, so what, what advice, you know, this is not an uncommon story, even still today of having a challenge of being able to come up for a variety of reasons, family, religion, financial safety, other things. 00:25:15.301 --> 00:25:19.981 When you think about sort of where you are now in the path that you've taken. 00:25:19.981 --> 00:25:27.771 What advice do you have to sort of younger folks or maybe even folks who are still contemplating and haven't had that moment of truth? 00:25:27.771 --> 00:25:33.073 What advice do you give to folks as they're trying to figure this out for themselves? 00:25:33.624 --> 00:26:00.824 That's a really good question and I think my advice to those people is that you know it's a very personal and really an intimate decision that you have to come to in the right time for you to decide when you want to live your life fully and authentically and to reject the shame and to... 00:26:00.824 --> 00:26:06.324 get the other people out of your head who are telling you that you're supposed to live your life in a certain way. 00:26:06.523 --> 00:26:11.152 But the feeling of liberation and... 00:26:14.124 --> 00:26:46.819 comfort despite the fact that there are people who reject or who don't believe that it's okay to be gay or lesbian or that trans people don't exist even though those people are out there and and they want to try to inhibit our ability to express ourselves whether you're out or not those people are going to be there and you're going to feel pressures and burdens, this is the nature of what life is about. 00:26:46.819 --> 00:27:07.519 But if you can take those obstacles, that pressure, and recognize it and say, it's more important for me to love who I am, to know that I am valid as a human being, that I have a purpose for being here, that I'm as essential to this universe as anybody else. 00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:19.215 And to be able to proclaim that, in your full self, with your full identity is so empowering and it sends such a message to other people and they give it back. 00:27:19.236 --> 00:27:27.135 I have found that just being myself and being true to who I am has given me so much benefit in my life. 00:27:27.135 --> 00:27:34.615 So I would encourage other people to push and lean into your own authenticity. 00:27:34.615 --> 00:27:37.596 You're here for a reason, you're here for a purpose. 00:27:37.596 --> 00:27:41.587 And if you don't fulfill that purpose, no one will do it. 00:27:41.587 --> 00:27:43.647 I think that was a quote from Dr. 00:27:43.647 --> 00:27:46.657 Benjamin Mays who was a colleague of Dr. 00:27:46.657 --> 00:27:55.779 Martin Luther King and really a mentor to him that we all have a purpose and I don't think you can get to your purpose unless you are true to yourself. 00:27:56.750 --> 00:27:57.759 I love it. 00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:03.089 And, and as you were going through this, Terry was who did you lean on? 00:28:03.089 --> 00:28:05.589 What resources were out there for you? 00:28:05.589 --> 00:28:12.289 How did you, you know, you had said over the years, maybe there, maybe I have some truth I need to figure out and explore. 00:28:12.289 --> 00:28:19.750 And were there any resources or would you offer up any resources that, that, that you use through your journey? 00:28:20.140 --> 00:28:23.400 That's a good question. 00:28:23.900 --> 00:28:30.809 I think part of this is being aware of the possibilities out there, like really sort of looking at things. 00:28:30.809 --> 00:28:41.900 I think back to the people who were, you know, Bayard Rustin, who helped Martin Luther King, who really organized the March on Washington. 00:28:41.980 --> 00:28:44.299 I didn't know who he was. 00:28:44.339 --> 00:28:49.496 He didn't exist for me that there was this queer person who was involved in the organization. 00:28:49.496 --> 00:28:57.155 Lorraine Hansberry who wrote Raisin in the Sun, who knew she was a lesbian? 00:28:57.935 --> 00:29:00.016 We weren't told those things. 00:29:00.016 --> 00:29:02.405 And today there are so many resources. 00:29:02.405 --> 00:29:14.875 You can hop on the internet and look for gay lawyers, gay writers, gay doctors, whatever it is in the area that you're interested in pursuing. 00:29:14.875 --> 00:29:18.423 And you can find resources, people who are examples. 00:29:18.423 --> 00:29:21.503 who live their lives openly and honestly. 00:29:21.503 --> 00:29:44.884 And I think if you can look for those and try to use those, you know, people talk about the word role model and I always feel uncomfortable with that term in some ways because it both assumes that there has to be a certain role and that there's a certain model for what makes, you know, the best person. 00:29:44.884 --> 00:29:45.551 I... 00:29:45.751 --> 00:30:10.801 I've won awards for mentorship, but I think what we want to try to be is examples, because what you want to do is to be someone who has lived their life in their way that someone else can look at and can see that, and then take from that what might be useful to them and combine that with their own spirit, with their own determination, with their own goals and mission, and make something new. 00:30:10.801 --> 00:30:13.208 And I think that's... 00:30:13.208 --> 00:30:19.067 what we're here for is to help encourage other people to find ways to be their best selves. 00:30:19.548 --> 00:30:25.932 And so I think that's far from the question, but I think that's what I want people to know. 00:30:26.294 --> 00:30:27.394 think it's so true. 00:30:27.394 --> 00:30:44.473 And I think you're so right about seeking and exploring and you know, your Bayard Rustin example after watching Coleman Domingo last year in that film and leaving and saying, there are so many stories. 00:30:44.473 --> 00:30:49.453 There are so many people that their stories have not been told. 00:30:49.453 --> 00:30:52.973 And I think it's just amazing for us to be in this time now. 00:30:52.973 --> 00:31:01.534 for to your recommendation to the listeners, you know, when we were contemplating these things in the eighties and nineties, it was very difficult to find a lot of this information. 00:31:01.534 --> 00:31:17.374 And now I think there is such an opportunity to watch a Rustin film and be able to understand the struggles and being able to also, I think, to your point, inspire and show possibility and show that there is a path. 00:31:17.374 --> 00:31:19.463 So I think it's really, really good advice. 00:31:19.463 --> 00:31:26.630 And I think, you know, I know your your work with LGBTQ plus films and storytelling that you do of your own. 00:31:26.630 --> 00:31:27.549 They're all great ways. 00:31:27.549 --> 00:31:35.569 And here, like you said, being here today on clout for good and telling your story, I think is really important for folks to connect to these, these experiences. 00:31:35.589 --> 00:31:41.140 So as you know, the, on the show, we talk a lot about using your clout for good. 00:31:41.140 --> 00:31:45.210 So in other words, using your outness to make a difference. 00:31:45.210 --> 00:31:51.117 So thinking back on your career, tell us when you've used your clout for good. 00:31:51.117 --> 00:31:56.653 to make a difference for the queer community in the workplace. 00:31:56.887 --> 00:32:06.327 What I've tried to do is to be who I am, authentically as possible. 00:32:06.327 --> 00:32:16.248 As I mentioned when I came out in 2010, I was trying to find ways to identify community, people who would be supportive. 00:32:16.248 --> 00:32:25.751 And so I was sort of casting about, and so I sort of found out about Lambda Legal, found out because I was also trying to figure out how to... 00:32:25.751 --> 00:32:33.092 tell stories in a better way, in a broader way, about Outfest and got involved and got on the board of Outfest. 00:32:33.092 --> 00:32:44.432 And through that created community through contacts, relationships that have also become professional relationships as well through the law. 00:32:44.432 --> 00:32:55.352 So it's sort of trying to take a 360 degree approach, look at yourself where you are, and then sort of looking around at who's around you. 00:32:55.372 --> 00:32:55.928 And... 00:32:55.928 --> 00:32:59.488 how you might make a little difference here or there. 00:32:59.988 --> 00:33:24.607 And so I think just trying to be authentic whenever I can and using that to try to leverage it into opportunities to tell other people that you can be who you are and find the place you need to be to live a healthy life. 00:33:24.607 --> 00:33:25.720 That's not. 00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:30.380 closed and stuck in a closet where you can't be who you are. 00:33:30.380 --> 00:33:45.526 And sometimes that might mean changing where you live, changing your profession, changing your outlook, and changing the people who are around you so that the people who are around you are people who are supportive and who can help you become your best you. 00:33:45.710 --> 00:34:01.450 Yeah, I, I, it's such good advice to, I think your examples of seeking out lamb to legal or outfest or other types of organizations, you know, myself, I was a athlete in college and I got involved with LGBT sports. 00:34:01.450 --> 00:34:05.490 And so I met, met one of my first friends I met said, do you want to come and play gay volleyball? 00:34:05.490 --> 00:34:07.049 And I thought, what's gay volleyball? 00:34:07.049 --> 00:34:08.219 I don't understand what that is. 00:34:08.219 --> 00:34:23.110 I just come out at 24 in Atlanta and, Similarly, those experiences created some of the best experiences I've had still today playing in gay athletics, in tennis and otherwise. 00:34:23.329 --> 00:34:33.099 And to your point, you not only have a great, I always say you're going out and saying, I'm going to try something that's good for me. 00:34:33.099 --> 00:34:34.090 It's healthy. 00:34:34.090 --> 00:34:38.309 I'm going to be around a group of folks who have similar views that I do. 00:34:38.309 --> 00:34:40.717 So I know that I can find acceptance. 00:34:40.717 --> 00:34:42.668 And we're all here for the same thing. 00:34:42.668 --> 00:34:45.898 We want to enjoy ourselves and have a good time and enrich our lives. 00:34:45.898 --> 00:34:55.318 And I think all those organizations or any type of organizations, actually one of my guests that actually introduced me to you, Valerie Madden had said, just get out there. 00:34:55.318 --> 00:34:58.257 And I know you two met with your participation in OutFest. 00:34:58.257 --> 00:35:03.338 I think really good advice to I think be out there and be as authentic as you can. 00:35:03.338 --> 00:35:07.177 And relationships and experiences lead to things that are unexpected. 00:35:07.177 --> 00:35:09.005 I think that folks sometimes. 00:35:09.005 --> 00:35:12.065 Sometimes you have that feeling on your way to your event or thing. 00:35:12.065 --> 00:35:14.195 You're like, I don't know if I really want to go to this. 00:35:14.195 --> 00:35:19.065 And I think a lot of times really try to make yourself go and see what it's all about. 00:35:19.065 --> 00:35:25.054 So, so one final question, Terry, I ask everyone this, it's a really popular question. 00:35:25.054 --> 00:35:27.846 People like to see what all, all of my guests say about this. 00:35:27.846 --> 00:35:32.036 But the final question is we want to know who's inspired you along the way. 00:35:32.036 --> 00:35:36.065 So for a moment, imagine you're hosting a clout for good dinner party. 00:35:36.405 --> 00:35:45.382 What two or three queer icons, have inspired you or do you respect that you'd like to have at the table? 00:35:45.463 --> 00:36:09.364 You know, and I probably already sort of tipped my hat a little bit, but I think somebody like Bayard Rustin and Lorraine Hansberry, you know, they're those people whose work I was aware of as a young person or even Langston Hughes, the great poet who I'm not sure if he's even today totally acknowledged as having been queer. 00:36:09.364 --> 00:36:14.927 But these are people when I was a kid, you know, I loved their... 00:36:15.192 --> 00:36:17.231 I loved the effects of what they were doing. 00:36:17.231 --> 00:36:19.751 I was aware of the March on Washington. 00:36:19.751 --> 00:36:25.012 I was only a year old when it happened, but historically it was one of those things. 00:36:25.251 --> 00:36:45.304 Raisin in the Sun, and then there was a musical called Raisin, and I knew that Lorraine Hansberry was from Chicago, where I was from, and as a lawyer I knew that her father had been a plaintiff in a lawsuit that involved racially restrictive covenants, and that was part of the inspiration for that story. 00:36:45.304 --> 00:36:49.922 had I known that she was also a queer person? 00:36:50.704 --> 00:36:59.304 My level of understanding of that story and what her experience was as somebody who had to remain closeted and so forth. 00:36:59.304 --> 00:37:11.063 Nikki Giovanni, these artists whose storytelling, now we can see how it was inspired and infused with. 00:37:11.063 --> 00:37:23.864 who they were as people trying to live their lives and express themselves as artists that we couldn't know those little secrets behind the doors back then. 00:37:23.864 --> 00:37:36.268 I would love to get their insights today to be able to say, hey, how did it feel to have to keep yourself closeted and tell me those places where you found a way to show who you truly were? 00:37:37.389 --> 00:37:44.079 And think of the change in the feeling they would have being, being welcomed to a dinner table to say, be who you are and say what it is. 00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:46.789 They would be shocked that this is where we. 00:37:46.789 --> 00:37:47.329 Yeah. 00:37:47.329 --> 00:37:48.610 Yeah. 00:37:48.710 --> 00:37:51.250 Yeah, exactly. 00:37:51.269 --> 00:37:52.929 Exactly. 00:37:52.929 --> 00:37:56.030 Well, Terry, thank you so much for all you do for community. 00:37:56.030 --> 00:37:57.960 And thank you for joining me today. 00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:07.117 I will be sure to share, the, the Ted talk and other, other ways to get in touch with you as we, as we promote the episode. 00:38:07.117 --> 00:38:08.947 I'm out there, but thank you. 00:38:08.947 --> 00:38:09.858 Thanks for the time today. 00:38:09.858 --> 00:38:11.416 I really enjoyed the conversation. 00:38:11.416 --> 00:38:13.711 Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure, David. 00:38:14.382 --> 00:38:19.202 And to my listeners, happy pride and thanks so much for joining us today. 00:38:19.202 --> 00:38:23.161 Please tune in every other Wednesday for a new episode of Cloud for Good. 00:38:23.161 --> 00:38:28.001 Follow us on social and visit cloudforgood.com to subscribe to our newsletter. 00:38:28.001 --> 00:38:34.121 I hope this episode motivates you to use your cloud for good to make a difference in your workplace.